22/01/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


22/01/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 22/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:41.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

:00:42.:00:44.

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

:00:45.:00:47.

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

:00:48.:00:50.

Speaking of the 45th President of America,

:00:51.:00:57.

we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

:00:58.:01:00.

in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

:01:01.:01:06.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

:01:07.:01:09.

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

:01:10.:01:12.

A party, a property to the TV on the what Labour will do next.

:01:13.:01:27.

A party, a property to the TV on the election, the public inquiry into

:01:28.:01:30.

RHI and all the twists and turns of another roller-coaster week in local

:01:31.:01:36.

And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three

:01:37.:01:39.

journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be

:01:40.:01:41.

relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -

:01:42.:01:45.

and their willingness to come to the studio

:01:46.:01:48.

It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

:01:49.:01:54.

and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be

:01:55.:02:01.

tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle

:02:02.:02:05.

So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.

:02:06.:02:15.

She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,

:02:16.:02:17.

but she was also asked about a story on the front of this

:02:18.:02:20.

It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired

:02:21.:02:24.

from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June

:02:25.:02:30.

The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons

:02:31.:02:39.

Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking

:02:40.:02:43.

The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

:02:44.:02:48.

It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

:02:49.:02:52.

whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

:02:53.:02:55.

That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.

:02:56.:02:58.

That's what the House of Commons voted for.

:02:59.:03:00.

He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent

:03:01.:03:06.

There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

:03:07.:03:13.

What we were talking about in that debate that took place...

:03:14.:03:21.

I'm not going to get an answer to this.

:03:22.:03:29.

Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the

:03:30.:03:35.

front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister

:03:36.:03:40.

wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but

:03:41.:03:46.

the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all

:03:47.:03:49.

questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.

:03:50.:03:57.

Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You

:03:58.:04:04.

read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr

:04:05.:04:09.

four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went

:04:10.:04:13.

into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion

:04:14.:04:19.

replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it

:04:20.:04:22.

have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.

:04:23.:04:29.

If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are

:04:30.:04:34.

matters of national security. There's nothing more important in

:04:35.:04:37.

that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.

:04:38.:04:44.

End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a

:04:45.:04:49.

good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she

:04:50.:04:55.

is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,

:04:56.:04:59.

and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know

:05:00.:05:04.

and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider

:05:05.:05:08.

point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,

:05:09.:05:13.

suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,

:05:14.:05:18.

because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.

:05:19.:05:25.

But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent

:05:26.:05:29.

awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the

:05:30.:05:35.

missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her

:05:36.:05:39.

comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often

:05:40.:05:44.

struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and

:05:45.:05:51.

we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the

:05:52.:05:55.

missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.

:05:56.:06:00.

What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests

:06:01.:06:04.

they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles

:06:05.:06:12.

work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have

:06:13.:06:20.

known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job

:06:21.:06:25.

on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some

:06:26.:06:31.

would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people

:06:32.:06:37.

from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by

:06:38.:06:42.

mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing

:06:43.:06:47.

as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are

:06:48.:06:53.

going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime

:06:54.:06:57.

Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on

:06:58.:07:02.

Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If

:07:03.:07:06.

anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!

:07:07.:07:10.

So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing

:07:11.:07:12.

to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th

:07:13.:07:15.

President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.

:07:16.:07:18.

Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -

:07:19.:07:20.

instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering

:07:21.:07:22.

attack on the dark state of the nation and the political

:07:23.:07:26.

class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach

:07:27.:07:30.

from the campaign trail to the White House.

:07:31.:07:34.

Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how

:07:35.:07:38.

First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange

:07:39.:07:46.

Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched

:07:47.:07:55.

I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...

:07:56.:08:02.

The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,

:08:03.:08:07.

the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.

:08:08.:08:11.

From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.

:08:12.:08:18.

In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.

:08:19.:08:43.

Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.

:08:44.:08:47.

The President, who'd criticised the work of

:08:48.:08:49.

the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.

:08:50.:08:54.

There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community

:08:55.:08:57.

And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled

:08:58.:09:09.

the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.

:09:10.:09:15.

So, as you heard there, President Trump used his

:09:16.:09:21.

inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"

:09:22.:09:24.

in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect

:09:25.:09:27.

He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and

:09:28.:09:43.

American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key

:09:44.:09:47.

parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care

:09:48.:09:52.

act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global

:09:53.:09:57.

warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate

:09:58.:10:02.

Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would

:10:03.:10:06.

restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also

:10:07.:10:12.

said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with

:10:13.:10:16.

threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a

:10:17.:10:22.

bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and

:10:23.:10:27.

order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building

:10:28.:10:32.

the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the

:10:33.:10:38.

first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who

:10:39.:10:40.

is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -

:10:41.:10:43.

he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's

:10:44.:10:47.

choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's

:10:48.:10:48.

just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -

:10:49.:10:51.

he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I

:10:52.:11:02.

made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval

:11:03.:11:09.

office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union

:11:10.:11:12.

integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,

:11:13.:11:18.

a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime

:11:19.:11:24.

Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,

:11:25.:11:28.

the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.

:11:29.:11:33.

Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an

:11:34.:11:37.

act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be

:11:38.:11:44.

oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral

:11:45.:11:54.

or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone

:11:55.:12:00.

in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the

:12:01.:12:05.

unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing

:12:06.:12:10.

called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,

:12:11.:12:18.

creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These

:12:19.:12:26.

institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was

:12:27.:12:31.

at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and

:12:32.:12:35.

prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When

:12:36.:12:40.

something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the

:12:41.:12:44.

consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new

:12:45.:12:48.

president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that

:12:49.:12:54.

so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and

:12:55.:12:59.

institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has

:13:00.:13:07.

argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more

:13:08.:13:12.

involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process

:13:13.:13:19.

with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama

:13:20.:13:25.

stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the

:13:26.:13:31.

world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers

:13:32.:13:35.

have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That

:13:36.:13:40.

power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are

:13:41.:13:45.

foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself

:13:46.:13:51.

around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some

:13:52.:13:55.

may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,

:13:56.:14:01.

and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald

:14:02.:14:05.

Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be

:14:06.:14:09.

more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are

:14:10.:14:14.

tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are

:14:15.:14:19.

still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr

:14:20.:14:23.

Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that

:14:24.:14:33.

clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe

:14:34.:14:41.

in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral

:14:42.:14:45.

relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a

:14:46.:14:50.

president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly

:14:51.:14:56.

critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary

:14:57.:15:01.

of State, national security, do you think that will temper this

:15:02.:15:06.

anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?

:15:07.:15:13.

I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world

:15:14.:15:18.

will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of

:15:19.:15:23.

State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge

:15:24.:15:29.

him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most

:15:30.:15:33.

successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is

:15:34.:15:40.

already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means

:15:41.:15:44.

you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these

:15:45.:15:50.

institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of

:15:51.:15:54.

millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about

:15:55.:15:56.

is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such

:15:57.:16:06.

an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian

:16:07.:16:15.

tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.

:16:16.:16:18.

The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he

:16:19.:16:24.

said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in

:16:25.:16:28.

front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the

:16:29.:16:32.

solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That

:16:33.:16:36.

emphasis is going to change American life, including American

:16:37.:16:39.

International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't

:16:40.:16:48.

mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our

:16:49.:16:53.

national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's

:16:54.:16:57.

inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the

:16:58.:17:02.

White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a

:17:03.:17:05.

difference there. He also said something else in the address - that

:17:06.:17:11.

protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is

:17:12.:17:18.

no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting

:17:19.:17:24.

the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually

:17:25.:17:27.

think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If

:17:28.:17:34.

you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican

:17:35.:17:40.

senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover

:17:41.:17:49.

administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see

:17:50.:17:54.

how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is

:17:55.:17:57.

a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in

:17:58.:18:03.

bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's

:18:04.:18:07.

also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this

:18:08.:18:14.

election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history

:18:15.:18:21.

and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a

:18:22.:18:29.

mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more

:18:30.:18:33.

trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the

:18:34.:18:38.

world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's

:18:39.:18:41.

leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great

:18:42.:18:46.

businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is

:18:47.:18:51.

debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from

:18:52.:18:55.

the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to

:18:56.:18:59.

reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both

:19:00.:19:06.

lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will

:19:07.:19:10.

walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese

:19:11.:19:14.

from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do

:19:15.:19:18.

that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war

:19:19.:19:23.

between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most

:19:24.:19:27.

important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't

:19:28.:19:31.

lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when

:19:32.:19:35.

you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China

:19:36.:19:40.

the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and

:19:41.:19:57.

Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.

:19:58.:20:02.

Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he

:20:03.:20:08.

hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to

:20:09.:20:16.

him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting

:20:17.:20:19.

a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is

:20:20.:20:23.

why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United

:20:24.:20:29.

States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point

:20:30.:20:35.

of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern

:20:36.:20:38.

Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned

:20:39.:20:42.

to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat

:20:43.:20:48.

economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think

:20:49.:20:55.

Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown

:20:56.:21:00.

herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in

:21:01.:21:05.

Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of

:21:06.:21:09.

the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about

:21:10.:21:14.

dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has

:21:15.:21:19.

another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the

:21:20.:21:25.

American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,

:21:26.:21:28.

including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find

:21:29.:21:34.

anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more

:21:35.:21:38.

important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like

:21:39.:21:42.

preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese

:21:43.:21:45.

and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear

:21:46.:21:52.

deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff

:21:53.:21:57.

and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we

:21:58.:22:00.

are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving

:22:01.:22:05.

into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that

:22:06.:22:09.

ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his

:22:10.:22:17.

inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he

:22:18.:22:19.

didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They

:22:20.:22:26.

are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's

:22:27.:22:30.

easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the

:22:31.:22:36.

United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things

:22:37.:22:40.

that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of

:22:41.:22:48.

State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful

:22:49.:22:51.

creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming

:22:52.:22:56.

and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to

:22:57.:22:59.

create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final

:23:00.:23:05.

word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up

:23:06.:23:09.

America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things

:23:10.:23:13.

that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.

:23:14.:23:19.

His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's

:23:20.:23:23.

abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going

:23:24.:23:31.

to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that

:23:32.:23:36.

realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked

:23:37.:23:40.

on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90

:23:41.:23:46.

days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.

:23:47.:23:52.

Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.

:23:53.:23:55.

So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -

:23:56.:23:58.

perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer

:23:59.:24:00.

claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit

:24:01.:24:03.

wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.

:24:04.:24:06.

To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -

:24:07.:24:08.

to her opponents it was full of contradictions

:24:09.:24:10.

Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how

:24:11.:24:14.

There are speeches, and there are speeches.

:24:15.:24:19.

Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading

:24:20.:24:22.

to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms

:24:23.:24:25.

This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade

:24:26.:24:29.

in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.

:24:30.:24:32.

It should give British companies the maximum

:24:33.:24:37.

operate within European markets and let European businesses do

:24:38.:24:40.

She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,

:24:41.:24:49.

We want to test what people think about what she's just said.

:24:50.:25:04.

Do we have any of our future negotiating

:25:05.:25:07.

As the European Parliament voted for its new

:25:08.:25:11.

president, its chief negotiator sounded off.

:25:12.:25:19.

Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept

:25:20.:25:21.

it, we're going to make from Britain a sort

:25:22.:25:24.

of free zone or tax haven, I

:25:25.:25:27.

The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's

:25:28.:25:33.

rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.

:25:34.:25:36.

We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but

:25:37.:25:40.

that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.

:25:41.:25:50.

Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic

:25:51.:25:53.

leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?

:25:54.:25:58.

The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.

:25:59.:26:01.

For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.

:26:02.:26:05.

I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming

:26:06.:26:08.

an independent country again, with control of our own laws,

:26:09.:26:10.

I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because

:26:11.:26:17.

There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and

:26:18.:26:21.

Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?

:26:22.:26:25.

There will, at the end of this deal process,

:26:26.:26:27.

so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but

:26:28.:26:31.

We take the view as Liberal Democrats that

:26:32.:26:34.

if this process started with democracy last June,

:26:35.:26:36.

We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them

:26:37.:26:40.

Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all

:26:41.:26:47.

watching it in a small room somewhere?

:26:48.:26:49.

Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that

:26:50.:26:56.

somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal

:26:57.:26:59.

with the European Union didn't work, we would move

:27:00.:27:01.

into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the

:27:02.:27:03.

I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what

:27:04.:27:07.

The Labour leader suggested he'd tell

:27:08.:27:14.

his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if

:27:15.:27:17.

Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among

:27:18.:27:19.

Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?

:27:20.:27:25.

Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic

:27:26.:27:34.

Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been

:27:35.:27:44.

anticipating since the referendum result,

:27:45.:27:46.

particularly around the

:27:47.:27:47.

I think what we've also seen today is the Government's

:27:48.:27:51.

willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I

:27:52.:27:55.

Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you

:27:56.:27:59.

have to be pretty tough to get what you want.

:28:00.:28:02.

Although some business people on the slopes speculated

:28:03.:28:04.

about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.

:28:05.:28:06.

We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,

:28:07.:28:24.

but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit

:28:25.:28:27.

Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.

:28:28.:28:31.

People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are

:28:32.:28:40.

four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the

:28:41.:28:44.

referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that

:28:45.:28:49.

nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't

:28:50.:28:52.

have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,

:28:53.:28:57.

millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.

:28:58.:29:00.

However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to

:29:01.:29:07.

parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the

:29:08.:29:12.

triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is

:29:13.:29:16.

what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our

:29:17.:29:23.

policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We

:29:24.:29:28.

don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what

:29:29.:29:33.

legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what

:29:34.:29:36.

amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block

:29:37.:29:43.

it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we

:29:44.:29:51.

will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are

:29:52.:29:55.

too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU

:29:56.:29:59.

migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer

:30:00.:30:03.

to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would

:30:04.:30:07.

you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how

:30:08.:30:12.

we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the

:30:13.:30:16.

Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those

:30:17.:30:19.

amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain

:30:20.:30:24.

whether they voted to leave remain want answered.

:30:25.:30:29.

When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I

:30:30.:30:37.

can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.

:30:38.:30:42.

But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard

:30:43.:30:48.

this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on

:30:49.:30:53.

Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead

:30:54.:30:59.

of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,

:31:00.:31:03.

when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the

:31:04.:31:07.

whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip

:31:08.:31:14.

on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote

:31:15.:31:20.

that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against

:31:21.:31:25.

it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a

:31:26.:31:30.

three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember

:31:31.:31:36.

when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these

:31:37.:31:39.

Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just

:31:40.:31:46.

another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds

:31:47.:31:58.

voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country

:31:59.:32:03.

and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous

:32:04.:32:09.

a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a

:32:10.:32:18.

three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you

:32:19.:32:23.

believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think

:32:24.:32:28.

that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.

:32:29.:32:34.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

:32:35.:32:36.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

:32:37.:32:40.

priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should

:32:41.:32:47.

remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the

:32:48.:32:51.

economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is

:32:52.:32:56.

Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?

:32:57.:33:01.

Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they

:33:02.:33:05.

come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to

:33:06.:33:12.

remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,

:33:13.:33:19.

ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the

:33:20.:33:24.

jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.

:33:25.:33:30.

Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.

:33:31.:33:36.

Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has

:33:37.:33:44.

made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's

:33:45.:33:52.

position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that

:33:53.:33:57.

you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,

:33:58.:34:01.

including being a member of the single market, without

:34:02.:34:04.

responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,

:34:05.:34:08.

is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is

:34:09.:34:17.

that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a

:34:18.:34:22.

member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.

:34:23.:34:26.

Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting

:34:27.:34:32.

negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it

:34:33.:34:37.

Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,

:34:38.:34:46.

if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has

:34:47.:34:56.

unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!

:34:57.:35:05.

It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it

:35:06.:35:10.

Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's

:35:11.:35:17.

position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how

:35:18.:35:21.

the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs

:35:22.:35:26.

union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove

:35:27.:35:31.

catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do

:35:32.:35:37.

accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own

:35:38.:35:44.

free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The

:35:45.:35:50.

ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to

:35:51.:35:55.

protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about

:35:56.:36:00.

free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will

:36:01.:36:04.

get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the

:36:05.:36:11.

NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If

:36:12.:36:17.

she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the

:36:18.:36:21.

customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for

:36:22.:36:26.

Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.

:36:27.:36:32.

I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating

:36:33.:36:41.

that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would

:36:42.:36:45.

that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,

:36:46.:36:49.

so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.

:36:50.:36:53.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:54.:36:54.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:55.:36:56.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,

:36:57.:37:00.

when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James

:37:01.:37:02.

about the government's new industrial strategy and that

:37:03.:37:05.

crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.

:37:06.:37:08.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:09.:37:20.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:37:21.:37:22.

By any standard it's been a momentous political week here.

:37:23.:37:24.

The local parties are preparing for a snap election -

:37:25.:37:27.

of electoral politics and there IS to be a public inquiry

:37:28.:37:33.

So what do the smaller parties make of the pace of political change?

:37:34.:37:37.

We'll hear from Steven Agnew, the leader of the Green Party,

:37:38.:37:40.

Eamonn McCann from People before Profit and the TUV's Stephen Cooper.

:37:41.:37:43.

And with their thoughts on a fast-changing political

:37:44.:37:45.

landscape, my guests of the day are Allison Morris from the Irish

:37:46.:37:48.

Hello - there's been no shortage of politically significant weeks

:37:49.:38:04.

here in recent years - but there have been few with as many

:38:05.:38:07.

twists and turns as we've seen in the last seven days.

:38:08.:38:10.

We'll hear what Allison Morris and Pete Shirlow make of it

:38:11.:38:13.

all in just a moment - but first, could we squeeze

:38:14.:38:15.

everything that happened this week into 60 seconds?

:38:16.:38:17.

Thursday the 2nd of March... This is the way the Assembly ends. You know,

:38:18.:38:36.

not with a bang but with a sort of whimpering diminuendo of interest.

:38:37.:38:43.

Time is short. To move any sort of inquiry I would have to be an

:38:44.:38:46.

Assembly next week. The only possible if public inquiry. We very

:38:47.:38:49.

much welcome the change of heart from Sinn Fein and we will get due

:38:50.:38:53.

process in and around these matters and we will get to the truth.

:38:54.:38:59.

Obviously I will not be ever again an elected representative but I

:39:00.:39:02.

would hope that I will have a key role to play in terms of continuing

:39:03.:39:09.

to build support for a peace process, build support for unity. I

:39:10.:39:13.

can say thank you to him honestly and thank humbly -- honestly I wait

:39:14.:39:20.

and recognise that the remarkable journey that Martin McGuinness went

:39:21.:39:24.

on as not only save lives but made countless people's lies in Northern

:39:25.:39:26.

Ireland better because of the partnership government that we

:39:27.:39:33.

worked on. That was the political week that

:39:34.:39:34.

was. Let's hear the thoughts

:39:35.:39:36.

of my guests. You says he emerged from this crisis

:39:37.:39:47.

unscathed. Do you remember so much significance happening so

:39:48.:39:49.

concentrated a time? Not at all. Earlier this week, I did a political

:39:50.:39:53.

review for a website, a review of the year so far. Can you imagine

:39:54.:39:57.

that in the third week of January? But it was quite appropriate, there

:39:58.:40:00.

was so much to talk about. In 17 years I have been a journalist, I

:40:01.:40:07.

can you imagine that in the third week of January? But it was quite

:40:08.:40:10.

appropriate, there was so much to talk about. In 17 years I have been

:40:11.:40:13.

a journalist, I cannot member any week like it. On Friday, the three

:40:14.:40:16.

events that happened, any one of them would have been a front page

:40:17.:40:18.

news story and we were left to decide between which one we would

:40:19.:40:21.

put to the front. I think it has been an absolutely mad and shocking

:40:22.:40:23.

weekend in some ways quite depressing. Politically.

:40:24.:40:25.

I think the good have filled this edition of Sunday Politics with any

:40:26.:40:27.

one of those men stories under normal circumstances, Pete. Let's

:40:28.:40:30.

take one to get us started. Those warm words from Ian Paisley about

:40:31.:40:33.

Martin McGuinness on Thursday night. Will they help or hinder the DUP in

:40:34.:40:39.

the run-up to the election? It is interesting because it earlier on,

:40:40.:40:45.

Martin McGuinness, you very -- Martin McGuinness said he very

:40:46.:40:48.

rarely heard members of the DUP talking about reconciliation within

:40:49.:40:52.

a few minutes later you had this much more magnanimous conversation

:40:53.:40:55.

with Ian Paisley Jr. That is all fine and well as one of the things

:40:56.:40:58.

that have happened in the Assembly is there in many ways much better

:40:59.:41:01.

relationships than 20 years ago. We would hope they would be better

:41:02.:41:05.

nearly 20 years after the establishment of the Assembly! The

:41:06.:41:08.

point about this is the conflict transformation is not just about

:41:09.:41:11.

making friends but it means much, much more. For example, we live in a

:41:12.:41:17.

highly segregated society. For arguments sake, let's say it would

:41:18.:41:21.

cost ?400 million, we are spending that amount of money on segregated

:41:22.:41:25.

education and segregated housing. That is a much bigger scandal within

:41:26.:41:31.

our society. What that tells us is that this type of scandal, with this

:41:32.:41:34.

sort of corruption, brings down the Assembly. But the fact that we are

:41:35.:41:39.

spending vast amounts of money on a segregated, sectarian society does

:41:40.:41:42.

not tell those that we have not lived that our forward in 20 years,

:41:43.:41:45.

never mind magnanimous words or otherwise. What about the

:41:46.:41:52.

significance of Martin O'Neill talking about fitting of a public

:41:53.:41:56.

inquiry, which was a U-turn, because earlier that day Declan of Sinn Fein

:41:57.:42:01.

was arguing on radio Ulster demerits of doing precisely that. They have

:42:02.:42:05.

been arguing about it for the past six or seven weeks then be public

:42:06.:42:11.

inquiry was not that for purpose. Penzing at lunchtime and then you

:42:12.:42:14.

assume that that statement that Mairtin O Muilleoir but it must have

:42:15.:42:17.

taken about one and a half hours to read so in the space of half an

:42:18.:42:21.

hour, they changed policy or Declan was not briefed. Why did they not

:42:22.:42:24.

call it several weeks ago and maybe we could have saved the political

:42:25.:42:28.

institutions? If they were going to eventually do turn their position,

:42:29.:42:32.

why was this not call them? Why did Claire Sugden not call it? Why did

:42:33.:42:36.

somebody not take some sort of action to save the political

:42:37.:42:39.

institutions, instead of doing it now because it is looking cynical,

:42:40.:42:43.

then we are taking steps to change this. I think he wanted to take that

:42:44.:42:48.

Simon Hamilton at that stage. Very briefly, it has been called right at

:42:49.:42:51.

the end of this mandate, because they are now heading towards an

:42:52.:42:57.

election on March the 2nd, is it too little too late? First of all, for

:42:58.:43:01.

those of us not as close to the establishment, the question of why

:43:02.:43:04.

this is happening, this inquiry comfort the day before we started

:43:05.:43:09.

the programme about the historical abuse inquiry. This was a major

:43:10.:43:13.

initiative by the Assembly which has been buried in this big's news, a

:43:14.:43:18.

really emotional situation. People who have had traumatic experiences,

:43:19.:43:21.

who really need help and care and that is submerged within this tittle

:43:22.:43:24.

tattle, who said what, who did what? It shows you the lack of function

:43:25.:43:29.

within the Assembly at times. OK, we will hear a lot more from both of

:43:30.:43:32.

you later in the programme. Thank you very much.

:43:33.:43:33.

Let's hear now from Stephen Agnew, the leader of the Green Party,

:43:34.:43:36.

Eammon McCann from People Before Profit

:43:37.:43:38.

and Councillor Stephen Cooper from the TUV.

:43:39.:43:41.

Welcome to you all. Inman, first of all, you talked about the whimpering

:43:42.:43:47.

diminuendo of interest in the Assembly as this term glossary

:43:48.:43:50.

close. But you will be out in the street asking people to vote for you

:43:51.:43:53.

for much the second. There is a contradiction there, is there not?

:43:54.:43:57.

No, I want people, and I have been urging them every minute between now

:43:58.:44:02.

and polling day, it is to vote for a different setup. To vote for a

:44:03.:44:06.

different party. That is all I can do, that is all we can achieve in an

:44:07.:44:11.

election. I know that the cynics, or who would describe themselves as

:44:12.:44:17.

realists, say that as a dream world that nationalists will vote for the

:44:18.:44:20.

DUP, you're not want to change that, I do not accept that. We will be

:44:21.:44:25.

making a pitch directly to voters for the DUP and asking them to take

:44:26.:44:30.

a look at the DUP's performance, to say what has been revealed about

:44:31.:44:32.

their record and to consider an alternative. Do you think that the

:44:33.:44:38.

smaller parties, if People Before Profit is returned again in five

:44:39.:44:41.

seat constituencies will be able to make a difference you have made no

:44:42.:44:45.

secret of your frustration over the past eight months.

:44:46.:44:48.

Absolutely. The main thing we want out of Stormont, I want more of us.

:44:49.:44:52.

I want more people generally defending themselves, either

:44:53.:44:56.

unionist and Nationalist as over. I want more people from my party to be

:44:57.:44:59.

elected and we will be going all out to come back with more than two

:45:00.:45:02.

Maxine and if we do that, I think we did have effect in the short eight

:45:03.:45:07.

months that we were there and if we come back in greater numbers, with a

:45:08.:45:10.

film and it, there is no doubt that we will be able to shift the focus

:45:11.:45:13.

of debate that Stormont. We have done that if it already. -- a firmer

:45:14.:45:18.

mandate. If the election and opportunity or a total waste of

:45:19.:45:22.

time? I think it is an opportunity for my party because they are one of

:45:23.:45:25.

the few parties whose vote is increasing and one of the few who

:45:26.:45:29.

are not predicted to lose seats. We will come back stronger within the

:45:30.:45:32.

electoral setup. You hope you will, you cannot be sure. I would be

:45:33.:45:37.

confident that we will. The reality is that most people will see this as

:45:38.:45:40.

a waste of time and in that regard, I have some sympathy. I would much

:45:41.:45:43.

rather that we had the public inquiry before the calling of the

:45:44.:45:47.

election. I would much had come forward with a budget that did not

:45:48.:45:52.

see many people put on protective notice because they do not know if

:45:53.:45:56.

the organisation is going to be funded post much. This fiasco is

:45:57.:46:02.

going to inevitably cost jobs. And ultimately, it seems to be about a

:46:03.:46:05.

power struggle between the DUP and Sinn Fein and I do not think that is

:46:06.:46:09.

what politics should be, how it should be played. The RHI scheme,

:46:10.:46:13.

which we can talk about in a little bit more detail in just a few

:46:14.:46:16.

moments, is a green skin. Why did you not spot the flaw then it?

:46:17.:46:20.

Arlene Foster and figures above servants have been accused of being

:46:21.:46:26.

asleep at the wheel, where you are slippers? I raised the issue of

:46:27.:46:30.

perverse incentives on public record, to a written question, years

:46:31.:46:35.

ago. Also as part of the consultation, the wider green

:46:36.:46:37.

movement was then that energy efficiency should come first. The

:46:38.:46:41.

department's answer back was, "We assume people will be energy

:46:42.:46:44.

efficient before we install these systems." It was not good enough

:46:45.:46:49.

then, it is not good enough now, 490 million. Happy listening, we could

:46:50.:46:55.

avoided that. But it does show the limitations of the small parties.

:46:56.:46:58.

You may have raised that in the public record, the point is, only

:46:59.:47:02.

after the huge brewery that has happened in the past few weeks as

:47:03.:47:06.

the public inquiries only been called. You had very little sleep

:47:07.:47:11.

over what was happening. And the public now have an opportunity to

:47:12.:47:13.

give their verdict on those traditional parties who created the

:47:14.:47:16.

waist, who the institutions and return parties like the Green Party

:47:17.:47:21.

in greater numbers so that we have more power and can deliver, as we

:47:22.:47:26.

have done, and the last Assembly I delivered the children's act, we

:47:27.:47:28.

were the first party and all liberty to raise RHI from the start. We have

:47:29.:47:33.

a good track record and we can continue that with more MLAs.

:47:34.:47:39.

Stephen, is city you be happy to be facing another election so soon

:47:40.:47:41.

after the last one? In the circumstances, we are. We have been

:47:42.:47:46.

seeing for quite some time that the Executive is dysfunctional. It

:47:47.:47:49.

cannot work, it will not work. If the structures remain the same, we

:47:50.:47:53.

will be left in exactly the same position again after this election.

:47:54.:47:59.

So, we want, as others have outlined, to give the public a

:48:00.:48:06.

chance to give their verdict on the field a and structures. It gives

:48:07.:48:10.

union is a chance to vote for strong negotiating team, because no doubt

:48:11.:48:14.

after the election there will be a series of negotiations, and it will

:48:15.:48:17.

be very, very interesting to see what form, and what content, will be

:48:18.:48:22.

in those negotiations. The difficulty for your party is, with

:48:23.:48:25.

the greatest respect, last May you sympathise with assembling and were

:48:26.:48:31.

returned with one MLA. Absolutely. So, people do not listen to you. You

:48:32.:48:34.

said the system was not working last May, the blood and opportunity to

:48:35.:48:38.

believe you and to vote for your candidates, apart from Jim Allister

:48:39.:48:41.

they said no thank you very much, we will not bother. Perhaps this time

:48:42.:48:45.

will be different and I hope it is because in the last election, the

:48:46.:48:50.

blackmail by the DUP saying if you do not vote for us, Martin

:48:51.:48:54.

McGuinness will be joined First Minister, First Minister. People are

:48:55.:48:59.

seen through that because as we have witnessed... They would deny there

:49:00.:49:03.

was any blackmail involved. Well, that was your line, if you do not

:49:04.:49:07.

vote for Arlene, McGuinness will be First Minister. The public have seen

:49:08.:49:10.

through that because whenever Martin McGuinness has resigned, the thing

:49:11.:49:14.

has fallen apart because it is a joint others. And that is out of the

:49:15.:49:19.

Barry Corr of what they had to the public, in my opinion, falsely. --

:49:20.:49:24.

that is at the very core. Do you welcome the public inquiry into RHI?

:49:25.:49:30.

I do. So, Mairtin O Muilleoir got that right? It is one thing he did,

:49:31.:49:36.

yes. I also tabled a motion in my council calling for a public

:49:37.:49:38.

inquiry. It is interesting to see the DUP flip flopping on this exact

:49:39.:49:41.

issue, like Stephen has said. I would have liked to have that

:49:42.:49:45.

inquiry before an election so that we see exactly what happened, he was

:49:46.:49:48.

brought in whenever the spike happened, who brought in... Who

:49:49.:49:53.

referred them to the scheme and if they have any connection whatsoever

:49:54.:49:56.

with the DUP. Those are questions that need them to be answered and

:49:57.:49:59.

the sooner they are answered, the better. The public inquiry will ask

:50:00.:50:02.

a lot of questions and presumably can be a lot of answers and

:50:03.:50:07.

presumably those will be part of that process. To come back to you,

:50:08.:50:10.

Mr McCann, and the Department of Martin McGuinness from front line

:50:11.:50:13.

politics this week, you have known him for a very long time. You come

:50:14.:50:16.

from the same city, you were there on the streets back in the 1960s,

:50:17.:50:21.

you were doing different things and your careers have gone in different

:50:22.:50:26.

direction. What do you make of his decision to step back from the front

:50:27.:50:29.

line at this point? Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is the

:50:30.:50:32.

simplest thing, that Martin is busily not well. He is obviously...

:50:33.:50:40.

Gerry Adams is talking to the -- about the threat to his life, a

:50:41.:50:42.

life-threatening illness, and I think it a bit difficult talking

:50:43.:50:45.

about Martin. I have known him for many years. We are neighbours, sort

:50:46.:50:50.

of round the corner. We sometimes get our morning papers in the same

:50:51.:50:53.

corner shop. I know Bernadette, his wife, and so forth. Maybe I should

:50:54.:50:59.

not, I am supposed to be a politician above this sort of thing,

:51:00.:51:02.

but I find it very difficult to talk about Martin and his politics at the

:51:03.:51:06.

moment. I feel squeamish about it. Why, because you like him and are

:51:07.:51:10.

frightened of seeing something inappropriate? Bno, I am not worried

:51:11.:51:14.

at all about what is an appropriate and appropriate. Maybe I should not

:51:15.:51:19.

have taken... You mean because of illness as a personal matter? Yes,

:51:20.:51:23.

and I know him, and here's a neighbour.

:51:24.:51:29.

He is also a political opponent. Politically, we poles apart and that

:51:30.:51:32.

will remain but that does not mean that they are not human

:51:33.:51:35.

considerations which come in. I do think one of the things that gives

:51:36.:51:39.

Martin McGuinness his authenticity is that he does not come from a

:51:40.:51:44.

republican background of an ideology that has gone out, he is a brother

:51:45.:51:50.

of the block, from a march or two or a riot or do, and then sort of

:51:51.:51:56.

into... If you look at the trajectory, the Ark of Martin

:51:57.:51:59.

McGuinness's career, you will see that for good or ill, and I would be

:52:00.:52:04.

critical of it of course, it has kept pace with, get in alignment

:52:05.:52:09.

with developments in the community that he represents. He has got that

:52:10.:52:12.

which nobody else in the leadership of Sinn Fein has. Stephen, your

:52:13.:52:18.

order leader was not happy with Ian Paisley's comments about Martin

:52:19.:52:20.

McGuinness on the view on Thursday. He called it a gushing eulogy. Do

:52:21.:52:24.

you wish Martin McGuinness recovery from his current health

:52:25.:52:26.

difficulties? Can you at least concede that point? First and

:52:27.:52:30.

foremost, I would not wish ill health on anybody. But I do, my

:52:31.:52:36.

first thought is for the many thousands of victims of the IRA he

:52:37.:52:41.

commanded. They did not get to see retirement, the age that he has

:52:42.:52:46.

reached. They also note the journey he has been on, as Ian Paisley did

:52:47.:52:50.

on Thursday night? If he has been on a journey, it should begin with an

:52:51.:52:53.

apology. It should, some honesty, which is probably asking too much, I

:52:54.:52:58.

am sure. If you could come clear on where they disappeared bodies are,

:52:59.:53:01.

for example, and give closer to the victims, that would be the jester,

:53:02.:53:05.

it would be a tremendous gesture by McGuinness on the half of the IRA.

:53:06.:53:11.

You're not proceeded at this point? I wish in the health to come clean

:53:12.:53:15.

-- to reflect, come clean and tell the truth. 'S quick sentence on the

:53:16.:53:20.

departure of Martin McGuinness, how significant is it? I think it is

:53:21.:53:23.

very significant. He has been a stable sector in Northern Ireland

:53:24.:53:28.

politics since the Good Friday Agreement, the peace process. I do

:53:29.:53:31.

not think we can or should forget the past but I think we should

:53:32.:53:34.

recognise what he has done and I can honestly say I find somebody who has

:53:35.:53:37.

been good to work with. Lots more discussion about the election in

:53:38.:53:41.

weeks to come, you will be glad to hear. Thank you very much indeed for

:53:42.:53:42.

me. Let's hear more from

:53:43.:53:43.

Allison and Pete. How brittle, to quote Arlene Foster,

:53:44.:53:53.

do you think it is likely to be? Very brittle. Already, you can see

:53:54.:53:57.

that both of two main parties are reverting back to type, if you like.

:53:58.:54:01.

One is going hard-core unionist, Sinn Fein is going back to their

:54:02.:54:05.

roots, which is probably playing out quite well with the electorate but

:54:06.:54:08.

it will not take us to a good place after the election to negotiations,

:54:09.:54:12.

because an election, by its very nature, means there are no political

:54:13.:54:18.

opponents, no longer coalition partners. It will get better and

:54:19.:54:21.

nasty and where does that leave us after an election? The difficulty

:54:22.:54:26.

and it is likely to be for the smaller parties, Pete? We know that

:54:27.:54:31.

roughly about 45 to 50% of people do not forward but Stephen made the

:54:32.:54:34.

point, and it is the same for Mr McMahon, most of the political

:54:35.:54:37.

parties have gone backwards or stalled electorally. These are

:54:38.:54:40.

smaller, younger parties are starting to engage and starting to

:54:41.:54:43.

capture votes and he will probably see that they will have more cabinet

:54:44.:54:47.

seats. Hopefully they do not stand against each other, I think there's

:54:48.:54:50.

some possible to of that happening, which would be a split. One of the

:54:51.:54:53.

things it is important, within the group of people who do not vote,

:54:54.:54:57.

there is a significant number of people who are same-sex marriage,

:54:58.:55:01.

environmentalist, would consider themselves to be leftist or had left

:55:02.:55:04.

and there are people who field is a significant number of people who are

:55:05.:55:05.

same-sex marriage, environmentalist, would consider themselves to be

:55:06.:55:08.

leftist or had left and there are people who feel disadvantaged the

:55:09.:55:11.

Belfast agreement. -- there are people who feel disenfranchised.

:55:12.:55:13.

Well, political friends and foes have paid tribute

:55:14.:55:16.

with many citing his negotiating ability and personal charm

:55:17.:55:19.

as significant in his role of Deputy First Minister.

:55:20.:55:21.

Here's a look back at some of the highs and lows

:55:22.:55:24.

# It's very clear. # Are Love is here to stay. #

:55:25.:55:38.

If you had told me some time ago that I would be standing here to

:55:39.:55:42.

take this office, I would have been totally unbelieving! For Ian

:55:43.:55:47.

Paisley, I want to wish you all the best as we step forward towards the

:55:48.:55:53.

greatest yet most exciting challenge of our lives. What's the current

:55:54.:56:02.

state of your relationship with the Deputy First Minister? What it

:56:03.:56:09.

always was. No change! Not an inch, no surrender. We've been described

:56:10.:56:16.

as the Chuckle Brothers back home by people who thought that would have

:56:17.:56:18.

demeaned as in the beginning. We are hoping we can juggle our way through

:56:19.:56:33.

2008. -- chuckle. I don't think that it's helpful for us to be going into

:56:34.:56:36.

the final details of these matters but nobody is in any doubt that the

:56:37.:56:40.

issue of parading was moving forward and was held back from resolution

:56:41.:56:43.

until the issue of policing and justice was resolved. -- the finer

:56:44.:56:51.

details. And it is your belief, is it, that he took the agreement to

:56:52.:56:56.

the wider party and they said no? It is not my belief, it is my

:56:57.:56:59.

knowledge. He quite clearly crossed a line that she done and he should

:57:00.:57:03.

not have crossed. We have learnt in the cause of the recent days that

:57:04.:57:07.

the scheme is being brought forward by the Minister for Social

:57:08.:57:12.

Development does not give full protection to claimants, or

:57:13.:57:16.

protection to future claimants. That is absolutely unacceptable. I have

:57:17.:57:26.

never seen such a dishonourable, ham-fisted statement as the one

:57:27.:57:31.

issued by Sinn Fein today. My job is to work with whoever is elected by

:57:32.:57:37.

the DUP. If I can work with Ian Paisley, if I can work with Peter

:57:38.:57:47.

Robson, I can work with anybody. I'm tired of Stormont being a watchword

:57:48.:57:50.

for arguing and bickering, and that is not why are people elected us.

:57:51.:57:54.

They did so to provide a better future for us all. There is a

:57:55.:58:06.

commitment from both parties to work positively, constructively. With

:58:07.:58:16.

Arlene and I, we are agreed on many things but on the issue of Brexit, I

:58:17.:58:20.

speak for the people of the North. I think we jointly speak for the

:58:21.:58:28.

people of Northern Ireland. What we have fewer artefacts being

:58:29.:58:31.

disregarded in a fevered quest to build political gallows. Today, I

:58:32.:58:37.

have told Arlene Foster that I have tendered my resignation.

:58:38.:58:46.

# Breaking up is never easy, I know # But I have to go

:58:47.:58:51.

# Knowing me, knowing you # Is the best I can do. #

:58:52.:58:54.

So, who will take over from Martin McGuinness?

:58:55.:58:59.

If you were a betting woman, where was your money be, Alison? I have

:59:00.:59:06.

already stated this week in the paper that my money is on Michelle

:59:07.:59:11.

O'Neill. I would have said Conor Murphy a couple of months ago but

:59:12.:59:15.

since the RHI scandal, and the current scandal, she has moved to

:59:16.:59:19.

the fore and I think that Sinn Fein things she represents the young,

:59:20.:59:22.

upwardly mobile Sinn Fein and I think she is going to be the person

:59:23.:59:25.

that fills his shoes. Somebody posted election literature from

:59:26.:59:30.

sites down on Twitter, with Fein leadership and a picture of Martin

:59:31.:59:35.

McGuinness, Gerry Adams land her in the middle. If you are to take on

:59:36.:59:38.

board what you said, that kind of makes sense. That poster is true of

:59:39.:59:44.

the old joke, somebody went to the Kremlin and stall next week was my

:59:45.:59:48.

collection revolves. That in the very obvious and symbolic weight

:59:49.:59:50.

eight was going to be the next leader. Irrespective of that, we

:59:51.:59:54.

know that the party does have a very centralised structure and a leader

:59:55.:59:57.

in that party does come with certain limitations, in some ways, but it

:59:58.:00:02.

doesn't for other leaders of other political parties. Would she do a

:00:03.:00:07.

good job? I think she will budget will not be the kind of leader that

:00:08.:00:10.

Martin McGuinness was. Figurehead rather than...

:00:11.:00:11.

have to do this. Thank you to you Different kind.

:00:12.:00:12.

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

:00:13.:00:13.

have to do this. Thank you to you Different kind. Thank you

:00:14.:00:14.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

:00:15.:00:23.

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

:00:24.:00:27.

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

:00:28.:00:39.

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

:00:40.:00:43.

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

:00:44.:00:50.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

:00:51.:00:58.

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

:00:59.:01:03.

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

:01:04.:01:07.

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

:01:08.:01:14.

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

:01:15.:01:19.

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

:01:20.:01:22.

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

:01:23.:01:27.

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

:01:28.:01:35.

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

:01:36.:01:42.

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

:01:43.:01:47.

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

:01:48.:01:50.

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

:01:51.:01:57.

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

:01:58.:02:01.

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

:02:02.:02:08.

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

:02:09.:02:11.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

:02:12.:02:16.

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

:02:17.:02:22.

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

:02:23.:02:28.

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

:02:29.:02:33.

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

:02:34.:02:41.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

:02:42.:02:46.

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

:02:47.:02:51.

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

:02:52.:02:55.

University there are further education colleges all over the

:02:56.:03:00.

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

:03:01.:03:08.

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

:03:09.:03:13.

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

:03:14.:03:18.

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

:03:19.:03:23.

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

:03:24.:03:28.

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

:03:29.:03:34.

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

:03:35.:03:38.

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

:03:39.:03:50.

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

:03:51.:03:52.

government department, and bringing together everything that government

:03:53.:03:54.

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

:03:55.:03:57.

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

:03:58.:04:03.

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

:04:04.:04:07.

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

:04:08.:04:12.

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

:04:13.:04:17.

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

:04:18.:04:22.

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

:04:23.:04:27.

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

:04:28.:04:34.

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

:04:35.:04:38.

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

:04:39.:04:44.

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

:04:45.:04:49.

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

:04:50.:04:52.

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

:04:53.:04:58.

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

:04:59.:05:04.

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

:05:05.:05:09.

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

:05:10.:05:14.

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

:05:15.:05:19.

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

:05:20.:05:22.

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

:05:23.:05:27.

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

:05:28.:05:33.

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

:05:34.:05:41.

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

:05:42.:05:48.

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

:05:49.:05:52.

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

:05:53.:05:58.

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

:05:59.:06:03.

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

:06:04.:06:09.

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

:06:10.:06:12.

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

:06:13.:06:17.

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

:06:18.:06:20.

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

:06:21.:06:28.

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

:06:29.:06:33.

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

:06:34.:06:38.

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

:06:39.:06:43.

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

:06:44.:06:49.

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

:06:50.:06:54.

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

:06:55.:07:01.

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

:07:02.:07:06.

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

:07:07.:07:14.

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

:07:15.:07:18.

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

:07:19.:07:25.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

:07:26.:07:32.

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

:07:33.:07:36.

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

:07:37.:07:42.

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

:07:43.:07:45.

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

:07:46.:07:49.

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

:07:50.:07:54.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

:07:55.:07:58.

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

:07:59.:08:07.

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

:08:08.:08:13.

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

:08:14.:08:16.

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

:08:17.:08:24.

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

:08:25.:08:29.

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

:08:30.:08:33.

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

:08:34.:08:37.

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

:08:38.:08:42.

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

:08:43.:08:47.

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

:08:48.:08:52.

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

:08:53.:08:57.

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

:08:58.:09:01.

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

:09:02.:09:06.

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

:09:07.:09:12.

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

:09:13.:09:17.

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

:09:18.:09:22.

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

:09:23.:09:27.

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

:09:28.:09:32.

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

:09:33.:09:37.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

:09:38.:09:49.

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

:09:50.:09:53.

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

:09:54.:09:56.

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

:09:57.:10:01.

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

:10:02.:10:12.

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

:10:13.:10:16.

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

:10:17.:10:21.

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

:10:22.:10:28.

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

:10:29.:10:33.

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

:10:34.:10:38.

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

:10:39.:10:41.

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

:10:42.:10:47.

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

:10:48.:10:55.

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

:10:56.:11:03.

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

:11:04.:11:10.

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

:11:11.:11:13.

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

:11:14.:11:19.

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

:11:20.:11:25.

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

:11:26.:11:30.

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

:11:31.:11:34.

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

:11:35.:11:38.

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

:11:39.:11:42.

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

:11:43.:11:49.

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

:11:50.:11:54.

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

:11:55.:12:00.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

:12:01.:12:05.

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

:12:06.:12:10.

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

:12:11.:12:17.

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

:12:18.:12:21.

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

:12:22.:12:28.

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

:12:29.:12:32.

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

:12:33.:12:37.

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

:12:38.:12:42.

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

:12:43.:12:45.

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

:12:46.:12:53.

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

:12:54.:12:58.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

:12:59.:13:02.

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

:13:03.:13:09.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

:13:10.:13:16.

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

:13:17.:13:19.

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

:13:20.:13:27.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

:13:28.:13:32.

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

:13:33.:13:35.

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:36.:13:38.

The View holds politicians to account and we ask

:13:39.:14:13.

the questions that our audiences want answers to.

:14:14.:14:16.

We reflect what's happening in the political world but I think we also

:14:17.:14:21.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS