29/01/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


29/01/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Coming up in 20 minutes: on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:10.:01:18.

I'll be asking the Ulster Unionists

:01:19.:01:19.

and the SDLP what they want from Theresa May as she prepares

:01:20.:01:22.

for meetings with the devolved administrations and the Dublin

:01:23.:01:24.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:25.:01:28.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:29.:01:30.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:31.:01:33.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:34.:01:35.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:36.:01:38.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:39.:01:39.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:40.:01:41.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:42.:01:43.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:44.:01:46.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:47.:01:49.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:50.:01:51.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:52.:01:57.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:58.:02:01.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:02.:02:05.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:06.:02:08.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:09.:02:13.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:14.:02:17.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:18.:02:25.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:26.:02:28.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:29.:02:32.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:33.:02:38.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:39.:02:42.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:43.:02:45.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:46.:02:51.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:52.:02:54.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:55.:02:56.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:57.:03:11.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:12.:03:14.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:15.:03:16.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:17.:03:22.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:23.:03:26.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:27.:03:31.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:32.:03:34.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:35.:03:38.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:39.:03:41.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:42.:03:43.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:44.:03:47.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:48.:03:49.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:50.:03:53.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:54.:04:05.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:06.:04:14.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:15.:04:17.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:18.:04:21.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:22.:04:28.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:29.:04:32.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:33.:04:39.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:40.:04:43.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:44.:04:47.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:48.:04:53.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:54.:04:55.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:56.:04:58.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:59.:05:03.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:04.:05:07.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:08.:05:11.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:12.:05:15.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:16.:05:20.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:21.:05:24.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:25.:05:32.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:33.:05:35.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:36.:05:38.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:39.:05:42.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:43.:05:45.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:46.:05:47.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:48.:05:52.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:53.:05:56.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:57.:06:00.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:01.:06:06.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:07.:06:11.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:12.:06:15.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:16.:06:21.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:22.:06:25.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:26.:06:29.

It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:30.:06:33.

arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:34.:06:38.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:39.:06:43.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:44.:06:47.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:48.:07:01.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:02.:07:06.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:07.:07:10.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:11.:07:14.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:15.:07:18.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:19.:07:20.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:21.:07:25.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:26.:07:31.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:32.:07:34.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:35.:07:39.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:40.:07:42.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:43.:07:48.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:49.:07:51.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:52.:07:56.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:57.:08:00.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:01.:08:03.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:04.:08:09.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:10.:08:12.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:13.:08:17.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:18.:08:22.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:23.:08:26.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:27.:08:29.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:30.:08:33.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:34.:08:38.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:39.:08:41.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:42.:08:52.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:53.:08:58.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:59.:09:02.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:03.:09:07.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:08.:09:12.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:13.:09:17.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:18.:09:23.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:24.:09:27.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:28.:09:36.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:37.:09:40.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:41.:09:44.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:45.:09:48.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:49.:09:51.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:52.:09:56.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:57.:10:01.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:02.:10:04.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:05.:10:10.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:11.:10:14.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:15.:10:18.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:19.:10:24.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:25.:10:27.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:28.:10:32.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:33.:10:38.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:39.:10:41.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:42.:10:47.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:48.:10:51.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:52.:10:57.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:58.:11:01.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:02.:11:04.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:05.:11:12.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:13.:11:17.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:18.:11:21.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:22.:11:25.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:26.:11:28.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:29.:11:38.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:39.:11:43.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:44.:11:48.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:49.:11:53.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:54.:11:57.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:58.:12:03.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:04.:12:09.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:10.:12:13.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:14.:12:19.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:20.:12:22.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:23.:12:28.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:29.:12:33.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:34.:12:37.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:38.:12:40.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:41.:12:45.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:46.:12:49.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:50.:12:54.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:55.:12:59.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:13:00.:13:03.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:04.:13:06.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:07.:13:10.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:11.:13:14.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:15.:13:18.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:19.:13:22.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:23.:13:26.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:27.:13:31.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:32.:13:35.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:36.:13:38.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:39.:13:44.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:45.:13:46.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:47.:13:51.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:52.:13:53.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:54.:13:56.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:57.:13:58.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:59.:14:00.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:01.:14:02.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:03.:14:05.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:06.:14:07.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:08.:14:11.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:12.:14:14.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:15.:14:22.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:23.:14:26.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:27.:14:29.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:30.:14:35.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:36.:14:37.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:38.:14:42.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:43.:14:46.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:47.:14:49.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:50.:14:52.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:53.:14:58.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:59.:15:00.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:01.:15:03.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:04.:15:06.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:07.:15:22.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:23.:15:26.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:27.:15:30.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:31.:15:35.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:36.:15:39.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:40.:15:47.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:48.:15:52.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:53.:15:58.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:59.:16:02.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:03.:16:08.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:09.:16:12.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:13.:16:17.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:18.:16:22.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:23.:16:25.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:26.:16:31.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:32.:16:35.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:36.:16:40.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:41.:16:44.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:45.:16:48.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:49.:16:54.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:55.:17:02.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:03.:17:06.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:07.:17:11.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:12.:17:16.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:17.:17:19.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:20.:17:29.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:30.:17:33.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:34.:17:38.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:39.:17:43.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:44.:17:46.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:47.:17:50.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:51.:17:56.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:57.:17:59.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:00.:18:05.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:06.:18:09.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:10.:18:13.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:14.:18:24.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:25.:18:31.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:32.:18:35.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:36.:18:38.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:39.:18:44.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:45.:18:47.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:48.:18:54.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:55.:18:59.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:00.:19:03.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:04.:19:06.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:07.:19:13.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:14.:19:16.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:17.:19:20.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:21.:19:24.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:25.:19:27.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:28.:19:33.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:34.:19:39.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:40.:19:44.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:45.:19:48.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:49.:19:53.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:54.:19:57.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:58.:20:04.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:05.:20:10.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:11.:20:16.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:17.:20:20.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:21.:20:24.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:25.:20:29.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:30.:20:33.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:34.:20:37.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:38.:20:41.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:42.:20:47.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:48.:20:52.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:53.:20:56.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:57.:21:01.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:02.:21:05.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:06.:21:10.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:11.:21:15.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:16.:21:18.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:19.:21:23.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:24.:21:27.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:28.:21:31.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:32.:21:37.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:38.:21:42.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:43.:21:45.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:46.:21:53.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:54.:21:56.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:57.:22:01.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:02.:22:05.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:06.:22:10.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:11.:22:13.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:14.:22:20.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:21.:22:23.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:24.:22:28.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:29.:22:31.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:32.:22:37.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:38.:22:39.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:40.:22:46.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:47.:22:51.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:52.:22:54.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:55.:23:00.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:01.:23:04.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:05.:23:10.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:11.:23:14.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:15.:23:19.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:20.:23:23.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:24.:23:26.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:27.:23:31.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:32.:23:36.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:37.:23:40.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:41.:23:44.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:45.:23:48.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:49.:23:53.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:54.:23:59.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:24:00.:24:02.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:03.:24:07.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:08.:24:12.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:13.:24:16.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:17.:24:19.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:20.:24:24.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:25.:24:29.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:30.:24:34.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:35.:24:38.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:39.:24:42.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:43.:24:49.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:50.:24:58.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:59.:25:02.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:03.:25:06.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:07.:25:12.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:13.:25:17.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:18.:25:22.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:23.:25:24.

being with us. Hello and welcome

:25:25.:25:38.

to Sunday Politics. with Donald Trump, Theresa May

:25:39.:25:40.

is set to meet Enda Kenny tomorrow, where the issue of Brexit

:25:41.:25:44.

will be top of the agenda. I'll be asking the Ulster Unionists

:25:45.:25:46.

and the SDLP what they would be saying to the Prime Minister

:25:47.:25:49.

if they had her ear. Plus - I'll be asking a Fine Gael TD

:25:50.:25:52.

what Enda Kenny should And with their thoughts throughout,

:25:53.:25:55.

it's Chris Donnelly MPs will have their say

:25:56.:25:58.

on the snappily titled The SDLP will back an SNP amendment

:25:59.:26:05.

which aims to stop the bill Despite campaigning to remain,

:26:06.:26:13.

the Ulster Unionist Party's MPs Joining me are the SDLP's Claire

:26:14.:26:17.

Hanna and Philip Smith from the UUP. Philip Smith, your party's

:26:18.:26:27.

official position on the EU referendum was to remain,

:26:28.:26:29.

but now you're supporting the Democracy. On the 23rd of June, the

:26:30.:26:41.

British population voted to leave the EU, by a relatively narrow

:26:42.:26:46.

margin, but they'll voted to leave nonetheless. -- they voted to leave.

:26:47.:26:50.

We saw it as a national referendum and result, so we will abide by

:26:51.:26:54.

democracy, and our challenge now is not to fight the referendum again

:26:55.:26:58.

but to get prepared for Brexit. That is one of the problems. The previous

:26:59.:27:05.

executive, DUP and Sinn Fein, could not agree on a plan for Northern

:27:06.:27:09.

Ireland and we have no executive or assembly and we're doubly impacted,

:27:10.:27:12.

which is a legacy of the past executive and is appalling.

:27:13.:27:17.

Your MEPs said that... or region of the UK yet

:27:18.:27:27.

it is the least prepared. You published a list of 10 key asks

:27:28.:27:32.

for NI from the government as part of the Brexit debate last September

:27:33.:27:36.

- and with no guarantee that you've secured any of them,

:27:37.:27:39.

you're going to back It is back to that word democracy.

:27:40.:27:48.

What we wanted the executive to do was instead of giving a 2-page

:27:49.:27:51.

letter, which they produced in August, was to produce a plan for

:27:52.:27:56.

Northern Ireland, how we're going to mitigate the impact on our

:27:57.:28:00.

agriculture, how we will improve our economy, how we will deal with the

:28:01.:28:04.

border, how we will ensure that Northern Ireland doesn't go into

:28:05.:28:07.

internal exile in the rest of the UK. These are fundamental issues.

:28:08.:28:13.

But what are you doing about them? You listed ten key points, including

:28:14.:28:19.

safeguards for the Common travel area, have you just forgotten about

:28:20.:28:24.

them? We have been pushing in the assembly. We are the opposition,

:28:25.:28:27.

remember. We have been trying to make sure the executive parties are

:28:28.:28:32.

focused on the challenges that face Northern Ireland. Are now you have

:28:33.:28:40.

rolled over? We haven't. People will have an opportunity to vote for us,

:28:41.:28:44.

put us into Government and implement that plan. Come the 2nd of March,

:28:45.:28:47.

that is one of the reasons why people need to vote for us and get

:28:48.:28:51.

some clarification. Claire Hanna, Colum Eastwood has

:28:52.:28:59.

pledged your party's MPs will use all means possible to defend

:29:00.:29:02.

the interests of the people Nothing we have seen since the

:29:03.:29:09.

referendum has given us any assurance that it will not be --

:29:10.:29:15.

that it will be anything other than damaging. We are working with the

:29:16.:29:19.

SNP to make sure there will be consultation with devolved

:29:20.:29:28.

governments. Minor modifications and amendments - to you except that?

:29:29.:29:38.

Northern Ireland is unprepared. The parties cannot use the RHI issue. It

:29:39.:29:45.

predated all of this. Sinn Fein did not really lift a finger before the

:29:46.:29:49.

referendum and have tried to pin everything on the Dublin Government

:29:50.:29:52.

since then, but there are options and opportunities. You can't stop

:29:53.:29:57.

the juggernaut. That's the phrase your part the Lido. -- party leader.

:29:58.:30:06.

You have three MPs out of 650 and you will not stop the juggernaut. We

:30:07.:30:15.

are collaborating with the SNP. Everybody has accepted that there

:30:16.:30:18.

will be different manifestations and impacts on this island, and on

:30:19.:30:24.

Northern Ireland, and we intend to maximise those. There is a lot of

:30:25.:30:29.

support over special provisions for Ireland. If Nissan can get a special

:30:30.:30:34.

deal, so can Northern Ireland. Give me some specifics. What shape would

:30:35.:30:39.

you put on it? We think some access to the single market. She has

:30:40.:30:45.

already said no. She hasn't said how it will work. Anyone who saw Theresa

:30:46.:30:52.

May's sycophantic appeasement of Trump will know how desperate the

:30:53.:30:57.

situation we are in. She has cut off our nose to spite your face on

:30:58.:31:03.

trade. She might see some value in having at least part of the UK

:31:04.:31:06.

within the single market, and every some opportunity for that. We have

:31:07.:31:11.

had a sympathetic ear. Colin eastward has been around Europe and

:31:12.:31:15.

has found a lot of leaders open to it. Are you not let down by the

:31:16.:31:22.

Ulster Unionist Party? There are areas where we have worked closely,

:31:23.:31:27.

and it is no secret that we have different ideologies and

:31:28.:31:30.

aspirations. The Ulster Unionists are focused on the clearance of the

:31:31.:31:35.

UK, but we are focused on Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland

:31:36.:31:39.

economy. We have common ground around access to funding. There are

:31:40.:31:44.

clearly areas where you do not agree, and you told us that we need

:31:45.:31:47.

to think about an alternative Government on the 2nd of March. Here

:31:48.:31:52.

is a critical issue on which you don't agree. We don't agree on

:31:53.:31:58.

everything. The SDLP are a Nationalist party and we are a

:31:59.:32:02.

Unionist party. We're talking about Brexit. Everybody knows about your

:32:03.:32:05.

disagreements on Northern Ireland, but you don't agree on a lot of this

:32:06.:32:10.

stuff either. We are focused on getting the best deal for Northern

:32:11.:32:14.

Ireland. You are accepting Government plans without trying to

:32:15.:32:17.

put any shape on it, which is not the same approach as the SDLP. The

:32:18.:32:23.

UK is leaving the European Union. And the SDLP are wrong to reject

:32:24.:32:32.

that? They have Aeron agenda. Northern Ireland didn't vote to

:32:33.:32:39.

leave -- they have their own agenda. Northern Ireland, Scotland and

:32:40.:32:42.

London did not vote to leave. Northern Ireland is in receipt of

:32:43.:32:51.

?600 million per annum. We will only get 300 million, so there is a mass

:32:52.:32:55.

of funding gap. Farmers will be impacted, so will businesses and

:32:56.:33:00.

universities. So, you're way of dealing with it is to back Theresa

:33:01.:33:04.

May's hard Brexit. A lot of people will watch and wonder how this makes

:33:05.:33:10.

sense. To get over that, we need to negotiate with the Government to

:33:11.:33:13.

ensure a package of measures are put in place to ensure that Northern

:33:14.:33:17.

Ireland is recognised as being most affected but is also most prepared.

:33:18.:33:22.

That is the difference between our position and that Sinn Fein and the

:33:23.:33:36.

DUP. One or two might of the former First Minister and Michelle O'Neill

:33:37.:33:39.

are attending to that. In what capacity, I don't know. We're not

:33:40.:33:50.

going to agree... So they are representing Northern Ireland in a

:33:51.:33:52.

capacity we don't understand and they won't agree. We will hear our

:33:53.:34:02.

plan tomorrow from Wales and Scotland. It is a failing of the

:34:03.:34:06.

executive that predates the current one. There are areas where there is

:34:07.:34:11.

commonality, including how we manage some of the repatriated devolved

:34:12.:34:17.

rules. Jim Smith, if it were your party leaders attending the meeting

:34:18.:34:20.

in Cardiff tomorrow, you could not speak with one voice either, because

:34:21.:34:23.

your party leaders take fundamentally different views as

:34:24.:34:27.

well. You can criticise Sinn Fein and the DNP all you like, but if

:34:28.:34:32.

there was an Ulster Unionist representatives sitting down

:34:33.:34:35.

tomorrow to articulate a Northern Ireland position, there would be two

:34:36.:34:42.

separate positions. Are fundamental difference opposition has shown is

:34:43.:34:46.

that both parties can work together, come to agreements. You don't agree

:34:47.:34:51.

on this. You like but we can work together, negotiate and come up with

:34:52.:34:55.

a solution for Northern Ireland. That is the fundamental difference

:34:56.:35:03.

between our parties and the DUP. There is no commonality there. There

:35:04.:35:11.

is. You tell me where the commonality is, on that

:35:12.:35:15.

specifically. We don't know from day-to-day what is in Theresa May

:35:16.:35:21.

Boruc Johnson's head. It is evolving. By the 9th of February, we

:35:22.:35:25.

will have a clearer idea and a clear response to that. -- Boris Johnson's

:35:26.:35:32.

head. We will collectively work together to get the best deal for

:35:33.:35:35.

Northern Ireland and the island. We will bear that in mind and

:35:36.:35:38.

times between now and the 2nd of March.

:35:39.:35:42.

Let's hear from my guests of the day - Lesley Carroll

:35:43.:35:46.

Be two parties are as far apart as Sinn Fein and the DUP were apart

:35:47.:36:12.

when they held the positions of First Minister and Deputy. It stems

:36:13.:36:16.

back to decisions taken on the referendum and since then how the

:36:17.:36:19.

Ulster Unionist Party have moved to a position of saying that the

:36:20.:36:24.

British public voted for it so we have to support Brexit. There could

:36:25.:36:28.

be ground over a period of time to agree principles around trying to

:36:29.:36:31.

minimise the impact, but the sense of powerlessness that I think

:36:32.:36:37.

politicians and the public now have is overwhelming. This is a much

:36:38.:36:41.

bigger political game being played, at a level of Theresa May and the

:36:42.:36:45.

EU. Perhaps there is an influence we could wield with the Irish

:36:46.:36:47.

Government, and I think that somewhere in there... You were an

:36:48.:36:59.

Ulster Unionist candidate at the last election in May. I want to take

:37:00.:37:05.

a broader overview with you. How big difficulty is it for Northern

:37:06.:37:08.

Ireland that it doesn't have a single voice in the Brexit debate at

:37:09.:37:13.

this stage? We don't have a functioning executive and the two

:37:14.:37:16.

people at the meeting tomorrow take very different views on this issue.

:37:17.:37:20.

I think it is a massive issue that we don't have a united voice. Claire

:37:21.:37:27.

Hanna spoke about Northern Ireland being unprepared. Westminster is

:37:28.:37:31.

unprepared as well not only for what we face but for taking account of

:37:32.:37:34.

the regions. Scotland is different because of the massive SNP vote so

:37:35.:37:42.

there is a united voice, unlike here. We need to get to that voice

:37:43.:37:48.

urgently, very, very urgently. Claire also spoke about the

:37:49.:37:51.

coherence of the Ulster Unionist Party, being concerned about the

:37:52.:37:55.

coherence of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Actually, the

:37:56.:37:59.

coherence of these islands matters in terms of Brexit. Chris is right,

:38:00.:38:03.

we need to look to the south. Without that united voice, our

:38:04.:38:08.

capacity to influence is so limited, and we end up feeling powerless in

:38:09.:38:12.

it all. We will talk to your bit later in the programme. Thank you

:38:13.:38:14.

both very much indeed. Now, let's pause and take a look

:38:15.:38:16.

back at the political week gone past in 60 seconds,

:38:17.:38:19.

with Gareth Gordon. The terms of the RHI public enquiry

:38:20.:38:30.

were revealed. To get to the fact of the eye which I -- the RHI scheme,

:38:31.:38:36.

to identify corruption and abuse. Arlene Foster was confident that one

:38:37.:38:40.

of her former advisers will be cleared of wrongdoing. It is wrong

:38:41.:38:44.

that we pursue people on beliefs. What we need to do is get to the

:38:45.:38:48.

facts. Sinn Fein unveiled its new northern leader. Agreements must be

:38:49.:38:54.

honoured, commitments must be delivered with partnership

:38:55.:38:58.

Government must mean exactly that. The Director of Public Prosecutions

:38:59.:39:02.

rejected allegations of bias in Troubles cases. They are being

:39:03.:39:09.

insulting and questioning our integrity. The DUP still believes

:39:10.:39:13.

there is still too much focus on former soldiers. This system at the

:39:14.:39:18.

moment is not fair, focused almost entirely on what the state does. And

:39:19.:39:23.

the assembly ended in low-key fashion. The assembly is adjourned.

:39:24.:39:28.

Gareth Gordon looking back at another busy week.

:39:29.:39:30.

Theresa May has been doing the rounds this week -

:39:31.:39:33.

first Washington, then Istanbul, and tomorrow she'll be visiting

:39:34.:39:36.

She has already declined an invitation to address the Dail,

:39:37.:39:40.

but there will be no shortage of things to talk about

:39:41.:39:44.

With me is the Fine Gael TD for Louth, Fergus O'Dowd.

:39:45.:39:48.

How important is that meeting between the two premiers?

:39:49.:39:54.

It is hugely important. Brexit is the biggest decision facing these

:39:55.:40:02.

islands for generations. An important successful outcome of

:40:03.:40:05.

these discussions will be hugely beneficial to all of us on this

:40:06.:40:09.

island and in the United Kingdom as well.

:40:10.:40:10.

Does that suggest Ireland is not a priority for her?

:40:11.:40:19.

I don't think so. That invitation came indirectly from a member of the

:40:20.:40:30.

house. I think the invitation is listed and always will stand. It was

:40:31.:40:38.

not a snub? No. We would love her to address our Parliament. Our

:40:39.:40:41.

relationship with Britain is hugely important, as are our relations with

:40:42.:40:46.

the North. Enda Kenny in Theresa May have commonality in keeping peace in

:40:47.:40:50.

this island. We are joint guarantors of the Good Friday agreement. Our

:40:51.:40:58.

economies are interlinked. Britain and Ireland for generations, for

:40:59.:41:02.

centuries, there have been people over and back, we have families, we

:41:03.:41:06.

have everything in each other's countries, so we must work hard.

:41:07.:41:12.

Enda Kenny and Theresa May will work to ensure the best outcome in this

:41:13.:41:18.

difficult position. What do you think the Taoiseach will want to

:41:19.:41:22.

hear from Theresa May? We have had a conversation about the SDLP

:41:23.:41:25.

perspective that Theresa May is driving a hard Brexit juggernaut.

:41:26.:41:29.

That is not the vehicle that Enda Kenny would like her to be behind

:41:30.:41:32.

the wheel of, but there we are. The island won't benefit from that. Our

:41:33.:41:39.

economy, North and south, we are interlinked and joined up with

:41:40.:41:42.

everybody in every way. Farmers in the North export milk down to us,

:41:43.:41:48.

and we send it back up. Our business, trade, commerce is

:41:49.:41:54.

interlinked. Do you think he needs to explain that? If we listen to

:41:55.:42:01.

what the Chambers of commerce are saying, they are interlinked and

:42:02.:42:05.

intertwined. Huge progress has been made others -- as a result of the

:42:06.:42:09.

Good Friday agreement and we must continue that. The softer the border

:42:10.:42:21.

the better. I think we have to use every possible imaginative outcome

:42:22.:42:25.

we can have. The Irish Government has been planning for a long time,

:42:26.:42:29.

looking at all the different options, and I think this meeting

:42:30.:42:33.

with Theresa May is critical to progress on all of these islands.

:42:34.:42:38.

Are you saying that he will be arguing, the Taoiseach, for a

:42:39.:42:43.

special arrangement between Ireland, north and south, and the UK when

:42:44.:42:48.

Brexit happens? The difficulty is that the negotiation at the EU level

:42:49.:42:51.

is between heads of state and Britain. The only Irish person

:42:52.:42:59.

speaking at those will be Enda Kenny, so his voice is powerful and

:43:00.:43:03.

influential, but I think that the relationship between Britain and

:43:04.:43:09.

Ireland is extremely important and special, and we must take that as

:43:10.:43:12.

far as we can. We don't have the power to clearly negotiate but we

:43:13.:43:16.

have to have the agenda agreed between us. If we don't, it will be

:43:17.:43:23.

bad for everyone. Is he more concerned about the Republic trading

:43:24.:43:26.

with the UK than he is over the border between the north and South?

:43:27.:43:30.

I live in a border county and we never want to go back to what

:43:31.:43:35.

happened before. Clearly, peace in Ireland, the Good Friday agreement,

:43:36.:43:40.

is absolutely critical to the future of everybody on this island, so I

:43:41.:43:43.

would say it is number one out there. And our economy, obviously,

:43:44.:43:52.

and our cooperation between counties. If you look at health

:43:53.:43:57.

cooperation in terms of cancer services in the North West, all

:43:58.:44:01.

those things, all our communications, our whole country

:44:02.:44:06.

together, forgetting our constitutional issues, working

:44:07.:44:08.

together is where it is at. Which is more important, in your view,

:44:09.:44:15.

Dublin's relationship with Brussels or with London? I think our

:44:16.:44:19.

relationships on this island with each other are the priority.

:44:20.:44:24.

Clearly, we have the influence in Brussels, and Britain as the

:44:25.:44:27.

influence in the British Government. We have to work together. Peace on

:44:28.:44:32.

this island is number one. It is a no-brainer. We can't have a Mexican

:44:33.:44:36.

wall between North and South in this country. Our future is together, and

:44:37.:44:41.

that's the only place we'll get on, and we must get on. We must overcome

:44:42.:44:46.

the barriers, we must do it. If we don't, we will ultimately go back to

:44:47.:44:50.

where we were, when nobody wants to go. Let's talk about the choppy

:44:51.:44:56.

waters Mr Kenny seems to have got into over a coalition in the future

:44:57.:45:01.

with Sinn Fein. He has issued a statement of clarification ruling

:45:02.:45:06.

that out after seeming to suggest that his position was softening

:45:07.:45:10.

earlier in the week. His position is clear. Now it is, it wasn't earlier

:45:11.:45:23.

in the week. He has said there will not be a Government between Sinn

:45:24.:45:27.

Fein and Fine Gael. Earlier in the week, he refused to answer the

:45:28.:45:30.

question. You have answered in a straightforward way now. Why did he

:45:31.:45:38.

make such a mess of it? There is a position of absolute clarity. We

:45:39.:45:42.

absolutely agree that it will not happen. He has made a rod for his

:45:43.:45:47.

own back. The papers are talking about him maybe not being lead by

:45:48.:45:53.

Easter. Are you aware of a push to get rid of him because he has been

:45:54.:46:00.

so clumsily footed? It is up to him whether he should leave the office.

:46:01.:46:04.

Do you think he should go sooner rather than later? We need a

:46:05.:46:10.

Taoiseach in place for these Brexit negotiations. So he should not go

:46:11.:46:17.

until 2018? We have to bring Brexit to its finality. Individual

:46:18.:46:20.

personalities are not important. What is critical is the cooperation

:46:21.:46:25.

and the unity of our ideas if we can't unify our politics, we must

:46:26.:46:32.

work together. It is the only game in town. Thank you for coming in to

:46:33.:46:37.

join us. A final word with Leslie and Chris. When the Taoiseach ties

:46:38.:46:44.

himself in knots, is this good news for Sinn Fein? What is clear is

:46:45.:46:48.

whatever Enda Kenny has been saying this week, flip-flopping over the

:46:49.:46:53.

issue of coalition with Sinn Fein, in the likely scenario of Sinn Fein

:46:54.:46:58.

being led by Arlene McDonald or Pearse Doherty, Sinn Fein would find

:46:59.:47:06.

reasons and find possible -- Fine Gael would find it possible to make

:47:07.:47:10.

a coalition with Sinn Fein. The problem at the moment is Gerry

:47:11.:47:14.

Adams. That is interesting, and it is a subject we will return to

:47:15.:47:20.

repeatedly over the coming months. Leslie, are you planning to sit this

:47:21.:47:28.

one out? I am sitting it out. Has a candidate been chosen for North

:47:29.:47:33.

Belfast? Yes. You didn't throw your hat in the ring? No. No regrets? I

:47:34.:47:41.

think the position are goverment finds itself in is now so difficult

:47:42.:47:45.

and it is difficult to predict what will happen in this snap election

:47:46.:47:49.

that I am very happy to sit it out for the time being. Does it look to

:47:50.:47:54.

you like being the brutal campaign that Arlene Foster predicted? It has

:47:55.:47:58.

the potential to be that, but if we allow that, we will slip back into

:47:59.:48:05.

behaviour from before the Good Friday agreement, and we need not to

:48:06.:48:10.

go there. We need to focus on partnerships and relationships. What

:48:11.:48:14.

do we need to look out for in the next week? Brexit, over the next

:48:15.:48:19.

coming days, with Theresa May in Dublin, will be a key issue. After

:48:20.:48:23.

that, we will see what happens. The reactions to Trump will be

:48:24.:48:24.

important. That's it from Sunday

:48:25.:48:26.

Politics for this week. Join me for The View on Thursday

:48:27.:48:28.

night at 10.40pm on BBC One. But for now, from everyone

:48:29.:48:31.

in the team, bye-bye. We know you understand the risks

:48:32.:48:59.

associated with your pregnancy. Because I'm smaller, people think

:49:00.:49:01.

my hopes are not so great.

:49:02.:49:05.