Browse content similar to 16/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
extremely difficult, if not impossible, for an independent | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Scotland to join the European Union, so says the President of the | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
development in the independence debate. It's our top story. He has | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
the power to bring travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow | :01:00. | :01:08. | |
joined us for the Sunday interview. Another by-election | :01:09. | :01:09. | |
Here, the education minister says no Another by-election and | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
Here, the education minister says no school will lose money under his | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
funding plans based on free school meals. | :01:22. | :01:22. | |
With me, the best and brightest political panel in the business. The | :01:23. | :01:41. | |
twits will be as incessant and probably as welcome as the recent | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
rain. A significant new development in the debate over Scottish | :01:47. | :01:47. | |
independence this morning, the President of the European | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
Commission, President Jose Manuel Barroso, has confirmed what the | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Nationalists have long denied, that an independent Scotland would have | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
to reply to join the European Union as a new member, that it would | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
require the agreement of all 28 member states and that would be, in | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
his words, extremely difficult, if not impossible. In case there is a | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
new country, a new state coming out of a current member state, it will | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
have to apply and, this is very important, the application to the | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
union would have to be approved by all of the other member states. | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
Countries like Spain, with the secessionist issues they have? I | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
don't want to interfere in your democratic discussion here, but of | :02:35. | :02:36. | |
course, it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
of the other member states, to have a new member coming in from one | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
member state. We have seen that that Spain has been opposing even the | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
recognition, for instance, so it is a similar state. It is a new | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
country. I believe it is great to be externally difficult, if not | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
impossible. Well, he says he doesn't want to interfere, but he has just | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
dropped a medium-sized explosive into the debate on Scottish | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
independence? A huge story. Alex Salmond must be wondering what is | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
going to go wrong next. His pitch to the Scottish people is based on two | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
things, the currency union with England and the rest of the United | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
Kingdom, which was blown apart last week, and this morning, his claims | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
that Scotland would automatically get into the European Union has been | :03:31. | :03:44. | |
dynamited. He's not only saying that they would have to apply, it is also | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
saying it might be impossible to get the agreement of all 28 members to | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
allow Scotland in. That's even more significant than the application? | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
The reference to Spain is interesting, we talk about Catalan | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
independence, an economic and active area that Spain does not want to be | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
independent. About five other countries are blocking Kosovo's | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
accession to the EU. There is no reason they would want to encourage | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
the secessionist in their country by letting Scotland do the same. If | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
Scotland does have to apply, and it does get in, it solves the currency | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
problem because all new members have to accept the Euro? At the moment, | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
the SNP are rejecting that quite strongly. What an interesting | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
intervention today. However, I know that those arguing that Scotland | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
should stay in the union are worried that the polls are tightening. A lot | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
of these interventions, parents care arguments, they don't look like they | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
are convincing the Scottish people. We haven't had any polls yet? We | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
haven't, but we have since the currency debate was reignited in the | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
last few weeks and it shows the polls tightening slightly. I think | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
Alistair Darling's campaign would prefer to be much further ahead at | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
the stage. They are worried that these technical commandments are not | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
having much sway. Are the polls tightening slightly? They could be | :05:15. | :05:16. | |
within the statistical margin for error. They are, but not much. Alex | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
Salmond's main page is one of reassurance. He wants to say you can | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
vote for independence, a pound in the pocket will be the same as | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
before and you will still be a member of the European Union. In the | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
last three or four matter days, both of those claims have been blown | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
apart. Angus MacNeil has already told BBC Radio 5 Live that the | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
remarks are nonsense and he is playing more politics. We hope to | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
speak to the SNP's finance minister, John Swinney, a little bit later in | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
the programme. It is not just the constant rain that London commuters | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
have had to deal with. There was also a strike on the tube that | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
disrupted the travel of millions. A second stoppage was on the cards, | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
but it was called off at the last minute. | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
The leader of the biggest underground workers union, the RMT, | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
is Bob Crow, who has led his members into 24 strikes on the tube since | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
2005, as well as disputes on the national rail network. Under his | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
leadership, the union's membership has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
more than 80,000, at a time when union membership overall has been | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
shrinking. The current dispute has seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Johnson over the mayor's plans to close tube station ticket offices. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
The 48-hour stoppage at the beginning of this month is estimated | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
to have cost the London economy ?100 million. The two sides have agreed a | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
truce, for now, but Mr Crow has threatened further action if the | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
mayor imposes his changes. Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You | :06:57. | :07:07. | |
have suspended the strike for the moment. What will it take to call it | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
off entirely? Want to know first of all wider booking office has to | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
close. The Mayor of London made it quite clear in his election | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
programme that the booking offices would remain open. It was strange, | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
really, because Ken Livingstone wanted to close them down and the | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
mayor thought it was popular to keep them open and put in his campaign to | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
keep them open. However, we have not the news figures. We are being told | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
only 3% of people use the booking offices. That's not true. In | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
research done, if somebody does to a booking office with somebody sitting | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
there and asks for a ticket of less than ?5, they are not allowed to | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
sell them a ticket, it is madness. Do you use the ticket office? When | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
it is open, yes. You said to ITV that he didn't. I don't know what I | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
said to ITV, I don't know what time people use them, sometimes they are | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
open and sometimes they are closed. People make out that these ticket | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
office staff are people that sit behind barriers like a newsagent. | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
I'm not knocking a newsagent, however, these people were the same | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
people treated like Lions when they were helping people named in the | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
terrorist incidents, taking them out of the panels. Suddenly they are | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
lazy people that sit in ticket offices. My understanding is that | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
the people would come from behind and be out and about now. It is the | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
management wants to run the underground without ticket offices, | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
isn't that their prerogative? They are paid to manage, not you, not | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
your members, they are the managers? Managers are there to manage, and we | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
want good managers. But we've got some really bad managers that are | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
not looking at the railway as a whole. This is a successful | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
industry, not an industry in decline, one of the most successful | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million people a day. All of the forecast is | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
or it will move to 3.6 million per day. The mayor wants to run services | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
on a Friday and Saturday night. We are not opposed to that. However, it | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
does not make sense that if more people are going to be using the | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
tube on Friday and Saturday, coming home at two o'clock three o'clock in | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
the morning, a lot of people drinking, a lot of people not | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
dragging, why take 1000 people of the network that come to the aid of | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
people that are looking to people? I want to show you this picture. This | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I think it is. I was trying to copy | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
you. You deserve this break because you have done a fantastic job for | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
your members. Yes, I don't see what that has got to do with it. Let's | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
get every editor of the daily newspapers and see where they go on | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
their holidays, I would like to know. What I choose to do... I'm not | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
attacking you for doing that... You've got a picture up there, I've | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
got to say, why don't they go and follow Boris Johnson when he was | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
away on holiday, when the riots were taking place in London, and he | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
refused to come back? Why don't they go and view the editors of | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
newspapers, where they go on holiday? Why do they look at you | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
when you go on holiday? They sometimes do, actually. The basic | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
pay of a tube driver will soon be ?52,000. Ticket office workers are | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
already earning over ?35,000. Never mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
or membership by your house for what you have done for them? When you | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
look at the papers this morning, I see that Wayne Rooney is going to | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
get a ?70 million deal over the next four deals. I see NHS doctors are | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot of people that do a lot of people | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
that, in my opinion, don't do anything for society. The top paid | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
people in this country should be doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
we live in a jungle. If you are not strong, the bosses will walk all | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
over you. The reason why we got good terms and conditions is because we | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
fought for them. The reality is, all of these three political parties, | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
liberals, Tories and Labour, they have all put no programme that to | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
defend working people. So we have to do it on our own. And that is why | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
you have done such a great job for your members and why union | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
membership has been rising, people want to be part of a successful | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
operation. But it has come at a cost for less well-paid workers, who | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
travel on the cheap? If everyone believes if London Underground tube | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
workers take a pay freeze they are going to redistribute the money to | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
the rest of the workers that work on the cheap... But the people that | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
travel on the tube, let's look at some of them, they are the ones that | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
suffer from your strike action. The starting salary of a cheap driver | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
now, ?48,000. The starting salary for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22,000 | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a teacher starting out. As your | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
members have spread, they have had to live through 24 strikes in 13 | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
years to push up your members wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
have put a pay freeze on by conservatives and liberals. The | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
police constables, so have the teachers. We have had the ability to | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
go and fight. The reality is, at the end of the day, as I have said | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
before, no one is going to put up the cause for workers. Not one | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
single party in parliament are fighting the cause for workers. They | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
all support privatisation, they all support keeping the anti-trade union | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
laws, they all support illegal wars around the world. Unless they have a | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
fighting trade union, our members pay would be as low as some others. | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
You said we could not care less if we have 1 million strikes. But these | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
people, the lower paid people who travel on the tube, who need it as | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
an essential service, they care. Of course they care, I've said before | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
that I apologise to the troubling public for the dispute that took | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It two to tango. If the boy never | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
imposed terms and conditions on us against our will... But you've got | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
great terms and conditions! But it's a constant battle, they are trying | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
to change them. Drivers are having their pay going up to ?50,000. You | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
said they are making it worse, it is going up. They are trying to make | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
things worse for workers. You said at the start of the interview that | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
the tube strike cost ?100 million in two days. It means that when members | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
go to work for two days it is worth ?100 million. That demonstrates what | :13:48. | :13:49. | |
they are worth. Only a fighting trade union can defend workers out | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
there. Your members should enjoy what you have got for them, because | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
it's not going to last, is it? Technology will change the whole way | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
your business operates. As Karl Marx says, you said I was a mixture of | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and the Sopranos. I thought that was | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
quite funny... The Karl Marx part of it, the only thing that is constant | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
is change. We have been crying out for new technology. But for who? To | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
put people on the dole, so they can't do anything and do anything | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
for society, or technology so everybody benefits, lower fares, | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
better service and better terms and conditions for the workers. But you | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
have made Labour so expensive on the underground that management now has | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
a huge incentive to substitute technology for Labour. And that's | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
what it's going to do, it is closing the ticket offices and very soon, | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
starting in 2016, the driverless trains coming. What I am saying is | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
that your members should enjoy this because it's not going to last. | :14:55. | :15:05. | |
Driverless trains are not coming in, it is not safe. We have them in | :15:06. | :15:15. | |
Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it is not safe? These are new lines | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
that have been built so that when it breaks down, people can get out of | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
the tunnel. Would you want to be stuck on a summers day on the | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
Northern line? A pregnant woman who cannot get off the train? Absolute | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
panic that takes place, the reality is simple, it is a nonsense. It's | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
not going to happen because it is a Victorian network. On Docklands | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
railway for example it is driverless but when the train breaks down, it | :15:49. | :15:56. | |
is above ground on a very small section. All of these other cities | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
managed to have it. You remind me about Henry Ford in the 1930s when | :16:04. | :16:15. | |
he said, you see that robot over their, he cannot buy a car. All | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
sorts of new jobs are being created all the time in other areas. Come | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
back to the ticket offices, not many people use the ticket offices any | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
more, what is wrong with getting the stuff out of the ticket office on to | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
the concourses, meeting and greeting, helping disabled people | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
and tourists and making it a better service? They can do more on the | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
concourse than they can in the ticket office. Andrew, he took the | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
decision to close down every single ticket office. You cannot compare | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
for example Chesham with the likes of Heathrow. Are you telling me | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
people are going to be on a long transatlantic flight, arrived at | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
Heathrow and cannot get a ticket. The stuff will be redeployed on the | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
concourse. The simple problem is that it is not just about the | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
booking office, it is about people having a visual. If you are | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
partially sighted, you cannot use the machines. If British is not your | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
first language, you cannot use the offices. How many languages do your | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
members speak? I don't know, I struggle with English. The machines | :17:45. | :17:54. | |
can speak many different languages. They are dehumanising things. You | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
phone the bank, all you hear is, press one for this, two for that. | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
People want to hear it human being and what makes the London | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
Underground so precious is that people want to see people. Having | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
well-dressed, motivated people out on the concourse, what part of that | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
don't you like? They will be on the concourse and they will have | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
machines. The fact is that London Underground did a risk assessment of | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
closing down their booking offices and it is clear that if you are | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
disabled, if you are partially sighted, London Underground becomes | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
more dangerous. You are posing the closing of ticket offices, opposing | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
driverless trains, when you opposed to the Oyster card when it came in? | :18:49. | :19:00. | |
No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal with it. It is not the only way. | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
They should supplement the staff and the job. If more people used the | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
London Underground system, you want more staff to deal with them. Let's | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
look at your mandate to strike. Of your members who work on the Tube, | :19:19. | :19:30. | |
only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30% voted for the strike, so 70% | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
actually didn't vote to strike of your members, but the strike went | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
ahead. Isn't it right to have a higher threshold before you can | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
cause this disruption? It would be lovely if everyone voted but the | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
Tories took that away. We used to have ballots at the workplace. What | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
I'm trying to say to you is that we used to have a ballot box at the | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
workplace and the turnouts were higher. The Tories believe that if | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
they can have a secret ballot where ballot papers went to people's home | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
addresses, where they could be persuaded by the bosses, votes would | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
be different. Let's go back to the workplace ballot because you get a | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
bigger turnout. Will the RMT re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
have no intention to. We got expelled from the Labour Party. But | :20:32. | :20:40. | |
you will give some money to the Labour councils? Those that support | :20:41. | :20:48. | |
our basic policies get money, we don't give money directly to MPs, we | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
give it to constituencies. Are you going to stand for re-election in | :20:56. | :21:04. | |
2016? I might do, I might not. You haven't decided yet? No, but more | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
than likely I will do. And will you stand again as an anti-EU candidate? | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
Yes, I am standing in London, and right across, completely different | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
to UKIP's policies. They are anti-European, they believe all of | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
the faults of Europe are down to the immigrants. We are anti-European | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
Union. If London Underground is as badly run as you think, why don't | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
you run for mayor? That is down the road, it has not come up yet. I'm | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
not ruling anything out. I'm not ruling out getting your job on the | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
Sunday Politics. You have got to retire as well, you have got to put | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
your feet up. I will get you to renegotiate my package. Shall we go | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
on strike first? If I could have your wages, I would have two trips | :22:06. | :22:18. | |
to Rio every year. Good luck. And if you're in the London region they'll | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
have more on the Tube strike later in the programme. Let's get back to | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
those comments from Jose Manuel Barroso, and reaction to these | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
comments from John Swinney. Scottish Nationalists denied all along you | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
would have to reapply, we have now heard it without any caveats, you | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
will and you might not get in. I think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
were preposterous this morning. He compared the situation to the one in | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
Kosovo. Britain is the member, Scotland is not the member. If you | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
go independent, you will have to reapply, he says. All of the | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
arrangements we have in place are compatible with the workings of the | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
European Union because we have been part of it for 40 years. The | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
propositions we put forward work about essentially negotiating the | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
continuity of Scotland's membership of the European Union and that | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
position has now been explained and debated and discussed and reinforced | :23:34. | :23:46. | |
by comments made by experts. We are talking about the president of the | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
European commission and we have spoken to him since he gave that | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
interview on the BBC this morning, it was an intervention that he made | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
that he wanted to lay out that Scotland should be in no doubt that | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
if they vote for independence they will have to apply for European | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
membership and they may not get it if it is vetoed by other members. | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
What he didn't say is that no state of the European Union have indicated | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
they would veto Scottish membership. The Spanish foreign | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
minister has. They have said that if there is an agreed process within | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
the UK that Scotland becomes an independent country, then Spain has | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
got nothing to say about the issue. That indicates to me clearly that | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
the Spanish government will have no stance to take on the Scottish | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
membership of the European Union because it is important that | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
Scotland is already part of the European Union, our laws are | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
compatible with the European Union and we play our part. The only | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
threat to Scotland's participation in the European Union is the | :25:02. | :25:10. | |
potential in/out referendum that David Cameron wants to have in 2017. | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
It has not been a great week for you, has it? Everything you seem to | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
want, the monetary union, that has been blown out of the water by the | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel Barroso has said you will have to | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
reapply to the European Union, it has not been a good week. You will | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
follow the debate closely, and the Sunday newspapers are full about the | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
backlash taking place within Scotland at the bullying remarks of | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
now? He is making an indirect comparison between Scotland and | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
Kosovo. If you vote for independence and you do have two apply again to | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
join, if you do get in it solves your currency problem because you | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
will have to accept the euro. We have set out an option on the | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
currency arrangements which would be to establish the currency union. You | :26:21. | :26:30. | |
would have to adopt the euro. That's not rate because you have to be part | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
of the exchange-rate mechanism for two years before you can apply for | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
membership and an independent Scotland has no intention of signing | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
up to the exchange rate mechanism or the single currency. We are | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
concentrating on setting out our arguments for maintaining the pound | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
sterling, which is in the interests of Scotland and the UK. Thank you | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
for joining us this morning. This week's least surprising news | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
was that Labour won the safe seat of Wythenshawe and Sale East in a | :27:07. | :27:08. | |
by-election, following the death of the MP Paul Goggins. With the result | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
so predictable, all eyes were on whether this would be the sixth time | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
this parliament that UKIP would come second. And whether they'd chip away | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
at Labour's vote, not just the Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
up all night to find out what it all meant. Forget the hype. Forget the | :27:23. | :27:32. | |
theorising. And yes - everyone has a theory. UKIP are learning from us. | :27:33. | :27:44. | |
What have they picked up from you? To be silly. Thanks to this week's | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
by-election we've got some hard evidence in paper form that helps | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
answer the question: How are UKIP doing? Turns out the answer is well, | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
but not well enough to beat Labour. I'm therefore claim -- declare that | :28:00. | :28:09. | |
Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have come second and increased their | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
share of the vote quite significantly. But their performance | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
isn't as good as their performances in some of the other by-elections | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
this parliament. Just don't suggest to them that their bandwagon has | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
ground to a halt. A week ago you'd told me you were going to win, what | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
happened? No, I didn't, I said I wanted to win. My mistake. How are | :28:34. | :28:41. | |
you feeling? It is a Labour stronghold, we always knew it was | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
going to be a fight. Labour were running scared of letting us present | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
our arguments. UKIP's campaign in Wythenshawe didn't point to the | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
right but to the left, with leaflets that branded Labour as a party of | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
millionaires who didn't care about the working class. It wasn't a | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
winning strategy but it did help them beat the Tories who focused on | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
dog mess and potholes instead. Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford | :29:08. | :29:09. | |
from Manchester Uni thinks they could be on the right track. He's | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP voters for a new book, which could | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
confound the received wisdom about the party. The common media image of | :29:19. | :29:30. | |
the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy faced golf club and -- member from | :29:31. | :29:39. | |
the south-east of the UK and many UKIP activists do resemble that | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
stereotype to some extent, they do pick up a lot of activists from the | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
Conservative party, but UKIP voters are older, more working class, more | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
likely to live in Northern, urban areas, and they are much more | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
anti-system than anti-EU. And they're precisely the voters that | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
the Tory MP David Mowat needs if he's to hold on to his narrow | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
majority in the constituency just down the road. Do you have a UKIP | :30:05. | :30:18. | |
strategy in your seat? Our UKIP strategy is to point out that if | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
they want a referendum on if they want to be in the EU or not, there | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
is one way to get it, for the Conservatives to form their next | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
government and for me to be their MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
what they want? I'm not sure it will be accidental. People need to | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
realise that if Ed Miliband is the Prime Minister, there will be no | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
referendum on the EU and UKIP may have made their point but they would | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
not have got their referendum. Over at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up | :30:52. | :31:00. | |
time. Not helping, Nigel? I had major surgery on the 19th of | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
November and I am still weak as a kitten. I can barely lift a pint | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
with my right hand, it is as serious as that. The answer is, Carreon, | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
chaps, you're all doing a very good job. There will be carrying on to | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
the European elections in May, which will provide more evidence of if the | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
UKIP and wagon is powering on or if it is just parked. -- bandwagon. | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
With me now is the Conservative MEP Vicky fraud and UKIP director of | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He will also be a candidate in the | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
upcoming European elections. You came second in Manchester, but it | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
was not a close second. -- Vicky Ford. There is nothing that is a | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
game changer? I think it is very unusual for any insurgent party, | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
like the liberals used to be, to actually win a safe seat of the | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
opposition. Those shocks, going back to Walkington etc, it tended to be | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
winning seats against an unpopular government. We did extraordinarily | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
well in Wythenshawe. Labour compressed the campaign down to the | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
shortest possible time and maxed out the postal vote. Whatever we think | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
about Labour, they do have an efficient machine, lots of union | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
activists signed a lot of people with a lot of know-how. It pushed | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
you into third place and showed the increasing irrelevance of the Tories | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
in the North? Tory minded voters in the North Sea more inclined to vote | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
for UKIP than you? I think by-elections are by-elections. The | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
same day, we took a seat from Labour in Birmingham. Well, that was a | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
by-election as well, so we should discount that as well. You should | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
learn from them, and we need to look forward to the elections in 2014. | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
That is in May this year, when we have a chance to really grab this | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
change in Europe, grab this change that we were talking about just now. | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
You don't worry, particularly in the north, if people want to vote | :33:07. | :33:08. | |
against Labour your supporters are drifting to UKIP? I think people | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
vote UKIP in a European election and they have done that for many years. | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
They vote that because they want change. The problem is, Patrick's | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
party have had MEPs since 1999 and they cannot deliver that change. | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
They can't because they don't have seats in Westminster. It was on that | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
video, the only way we are going to get the change we want in Europe is | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
to have that referendum and have the renegotiation, and that means vote | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
Tory. What do you say to that? Let's get real, the Conservative Party has | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
not won a Parliamentary majority in 22 years. But the only way you will | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
get a referendum, if that is what motivates you, and with UKIP it is, | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
the only way it will be a referendum on Europe in this country as if | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
there is a majority Conservative government at the next election. And | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
you could well stop that from happening? I don't accept that. I | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
believe, just as we forced David Cameron and into a referendum pledge | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
he explicitly ruled out making before through our success, and I | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
was there in PMQs, when his MPs asked him and he said it would not | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
be in the national interest because he didn't want to leave, our | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
electoral success forced that pledge. I believe by winning the | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
European action this May we can force Ed Miliband, again, against | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
his will, to match that pledge. Then, whatever formulation varies in | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
the next Parliament, we will get a referendum. Labour MPs have just had | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
the chance to say we want a referendum. They refused to do it. | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
The only way you are going to get a renegotiation, a change in our | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
relationship with Europe and an in or out referendum is to have a | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
Conservative Government. Please, UKIP, stop pretending that you can | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
deliver, because you don't deliver and you don't... We have delivered, | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
we forced David Cameron to give a pledge for a referendum he didn't | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
want to make. We will know if you are right about Ed Miliband or not, | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
you will have to tell us going into the campaign. If you are wrong, what | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
do you do then? There are still loads of reasons for people to vote | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
UKIP. A referendum is one thing. David Cameron, and I asked him | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
directly, thermally wants to stay in. He wants to be the Edward Heath | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
of the 21st century. The Tories are going to say, vote UKIP, get Ed | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
Miliband. What would you say to that? I would say we have probably | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
maxed out the Tory vote we are going to get because David Cameron has | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
been incredibly helpful in sending them in our direction. Our potential | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
for growth now, would we are concentrating on, his those | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
disenchanted former Labour voters and more and more of them are coming | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
towards us on things like immigration and law and order. We | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
want to renegotiate our relationship with Europe. We need to have people | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
who are going to turn up to negotiate with people like Barroso. | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
That meant a Prime Minister that is not Ed Miliband but David Cameron. | :36:15. | :36:23. | |
UKIP MEPs do not turn up to defenders. If President Hollande is | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
as good as his word and says there will be no substantial | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
renegotiation, certainly no treaty change this side of 2017 when he is | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
up for the election, what do you do then? He is a French Socialist Prime | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
Minister, I don't expect him to agree. But you can't bring anything | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
of substance back with these negotiations. Then people will vote | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
to leave. The Prime Minister has been very clear that British public | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
opinion is on a knife edge and unless we get what we want from a | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
renegotiation, we will leave. You would vote to leave? Let's see what | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
we get with the deal on the table in 2017. If the status quo was what we | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
have today, I would vote to leave. But I want to renegotiate. We will | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
have to move on. For those viewers lucky enough to live in the East of | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
England, they will be seeing more of Patrick in a moment. You are | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
talking about, what else, the weather, | :37:35. | :37:35. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics. The Education Minister has | :37:36. | :37:50. | |
moved to calm nerves over the Common Funding Formula - no school will | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
lose money says John O'Dowd. So what exactly are his plans? Plus, a war | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
of words over a proposed re-organisation to the Irish | :37:59. | :38:06. | |
language sector here. This is about demoting the language and providing | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
better services in a more efficient way to the Irish language community. | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
-- promoting the language. And with their thoughts, PR consultant Sheila | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
Davidson and commentator Orna Young. But first, the health of our | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
emergency departments has dominated the news all week - much of the | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
focus on Belfast's Royal Victoria Hospital. A BBC Spotlight programme | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
revealed a number of deaths had been partly due to delays there. Here's | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
what a former doctor at the Royal's emergency department told me on | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
Thursday night's The View. Did you feel that the concerns that you and | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
others raised were taken as seriously as they should have? No, | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
and I think that is evidenced by the fact that those concerns had to be | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
used on repeated occasions. I don't think they ever were adequately | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
addressed. What the public see in all of this are dramatic headlines, | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
and they hear from and see overworked medical staff working for | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
well-paid managers who look as if they are asleep at the wheel. I | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
understand that and understand how that conclusion can be drawn, but I | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
would say to you that everybody who works in health and social care | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
gives of their best to deliver the best health and social care. Let's | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
hear from my guests Sheila Davidson and Orna Young. Sheila, I assume | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
that you followed the story closely last week. What did you make of the | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
revelations and the way in which the Minister has tried to deal with this | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
situation? I think we all understand that the NHS is a monolith that is | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
very difficult to manage and fund and to get the best out of. That | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
said, what is happening in A seems to be the thin end of the wedge. We | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
have been biggest drug sector and event of the NHS and GPs, they have | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
varying degrees of remiss is that they work at, and there is an asset | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
of the NHS sitting out there, that people cannot access. Where are the | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
evening surgeries, the night time GPs that are dealing with people | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
when you are getting locums coming out? All of us have stories, and I | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
do, of people who are experiencing an NHS that is less than we would | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
expect. So GB contracts need to be looked at again? -- GP contract is? | :40:39. | :40:46. | |
Absolutely. I think what we are looking at with the A problem is | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
the thin end of the wedge, where the anything and everything approach, | :40:53. | :40:54. | |
send everybody into the hospitals, is creating an overload that gets us | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
to question things like the management. There were lots of | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
issues revealed in that programme and subsequent programmes during the | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
week. Jonathan Miller says the difficulties at the the Royal were | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
the tip of the ice -- iceberg. If we think about it as issues of GPs, | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
wide access to waiting lists, things like that, it has become very | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
alarming in oration to the system as a whole. There needs to be a step | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
taken back by all involved, particularly in oration to those who | :41:34. | :41:44. | |
have been involved -- in relation. The health portfolio remained a bit | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
of a poisoned chalice. It is, but we shouldn't look at it that way, | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
because no matter what politician takes it up, they have a challenge. | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
And we as a public need to understand that is not an easy thing | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
to do. I think it is easy to blame the Minister for something that is | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
really quite extensive. We are paying people in the health service | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
management more than even ministers. So the responsibility needs to be | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
further down the line. The other issue is that people 's expectations | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
need to be more realistic as well as to what they can expect from the | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
health service. Absolutely. If we look at this period of austerities, | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
it's problematic in terms of where the money is going, the challenges | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
are channelling that in a more effective way. We will hear from you | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
both throughout the programme. Well, money's too tight to mention in most | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
government departments - but maybe not in the Department for Education? | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
The Minister told MLAs that schools will not now face cuts in their | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
budgets next year and some schools will still get an increase. Last | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
year principals hit out at the proposed changes to the Common | :43:03. | :43:04. | |
Funding Formula, saying some could see their budgets cut by up to | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
?40,000 next year. So how has the Minister managed to come up with a | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
solution that pleases everone? John O'Dowd is with me. A bit of a magic | :43:13. | :43:19. | |
trick, some people would say. First of all you've had to concede that | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
your original plans for the Common Funding Formula were unworkable. I | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
haven't conceded that. I still believe the principle of tax doing | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
educational underachievement through social deprivation remains. I was | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
clear that the figures given to schools were indicative and include | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
the ?15.8 million that is to be added to school budgets. There are | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
several ways you can add that. This year we had 3000 more children in | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
primary schools on the previous year, 1700 less in other schools, | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
I'm proposing we have a split pot, one for primary and nursery | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
schools. How we divide at ?15.8 million is key as to how we move | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
forward. The target of tackling it remains. But that is not the | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
contingency fund you are using for this. That is a separate amount of | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
money. No, we shouldn't confuse the two. Where did the money from the | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
contingency come from? I heard it was to bail you out in the mail you | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
got into over the Common Funding Formula. I knew all along I had the | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
?15.8 million, that would be added to the pot. When we do that, I have | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
yet to make my mind which final formula we will end up with, we have | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
a minus around ?300,000. The universal budget I have of 2 | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
million, if I can't find that, shouldn't be in the post. But it is | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
a temporary stay of execution for these schools. What happens next | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
year? We're into a new budget year next year, I will be going and | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
negotiating with my executive colleagues strongly for an enhanced | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
education budget, and during this budgetary period we did secure ?130 | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
extra from the executive. But the Department of extra still has | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
millions from where we were three or four years ago. Education is | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
important, when it comes to negotiations around the budget... | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
You asked for feedback from the proposals. 77% of respondents | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
opposed the use of free school meals to determine which schools get more | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
money. 600 schools believed they would face budget cuts of up to | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
?33,000! People told you it was a problem and you have had to change | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
tack. That is what consultations are about. So you have taken it on | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
board. You also have to accept, you didn't get it right first time | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
round. I welcome the fact that 15,000 people responded to this | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
consultation. This has been an open, democratic base we have been | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
involved in. But in terms of the consultation response, one school | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
issued 2000 responses, entitled to do so but it has to be put in that | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
context. Around 4000 of them are lobby letters, you have to put them | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
in that context. I can go through the competition responses on the | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
basis, is there an alternative proposed? Man has been proposed. The | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
Public Accounts Committee of the SMB tells me free school meals is a | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
robust measure. And the OECD tells me it is a robust measure of social | :46:53. | :47:01. | |
deprivation. Is this a stay of execution for these schools for a 12 | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
month period, and can they expect cuts to their budget the following | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
year, or are you saying you will also be able to find the excess | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
money necessary to make sure schools don't face real cuts? Schools | :47:14. | :47:22. | |
budgets depend on a number of factors, the number of pupils they | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
take in, if a school loses pupils, there is nothing I can do about | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
that. But I'm committed this financial year to support schools | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
who may be losing money as a result of the changes I am making. I'm | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
committed to those schools that I will go into negotiations with my | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
colleagues and fight very hard to improve and increase the education | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
budget, I want to see all schools budgets increased in the future. Of | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
course you would, a lot of people will say it is laudable that the | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
minister wants to target schools with deprivation issues and social | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
need issues. You were prepared to sacrifice calls that you saw as well | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
off, more socially advantaged. -- schools. So that you can transfer | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
the money to schools with a particular need. And you now are not | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
going down that road? I haven't said that. Those schools with high free | :48:19. | :48:26. | |
school milk intakes will see a significant rise in their budgets. | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
It's not because it is laudable. If we go back to be health debate, the | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Royal Victoria was still faces significant pressures so I was | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
suggesting we shouldn't target... We have schools who are facing | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
significant pressures because of the social economic intake. That is | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
where we need to target resources if we are going to give those young | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
people a chance in life and make sure they contribute to our society. | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
But the charge was you were robbing Peter to Papal. You have got the | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
money from somewhere else. You say you were able to find the money | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
without any difficulty, why did you not think of that before you put the | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
schools who thought they were going to lose out through the trauma they | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
have been through? I have debated this issue with used several times. | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
You have changed your position. You sat in that seat and said, tough, | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
this is what's happening and I can't do anything about it. You are now | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
saying, I was always able to do something about it. Perhaps you | :49:27. | :49:34. | |
weren't listening! The fact of the matter is, I have always sat here | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
and said to you, there is ?15.8 million included in the part, it is | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
how I make that up that is the important thing. Schools with high | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
free school meal intakes will receive additional funding, that is | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
where resources are needed. I believe it is the right thing to do, | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
because all the evidence tells me it's the right thing to do. Was this | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
all a great fuss about nothing? This has been a very good debate. But the | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
teachers, parents who thought they were going to lose out... If we are | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
going to move forward as a society, these are the bread-and-butter | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
debates we need to be having. Politicians are often criticised for | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
not dealing with those issues, this is literally a bread-and-butter | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
issue. Thank you for coming in and joining us. Plans to cut funding | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
from four Belfast-based Irish language groups have put the | :50:31. | :50:32. | |
organisations on a potential collision course with Sinn Fein. The | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
Culture Minister, Caral ni Chuilin, has backed a new funding model for | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
Irish groups across Ireland - but none will be based here. Groups | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
which gave evidence at Stormont say local Irish language provision will | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
suffer. Our Political Reporter, Stephen Walker, has been | :50:46. | :50:46. | |
investigating. This war of words is very different. | :50:47. | :51:04. | |
Sinn Fein are used to doing political battle with Unionists over | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
the use and promotion of the Irish language, but this row has brought | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
the party into conflict with the very people who have spent decades | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
promoting Irish in Northern Ireland. Last year, the culture minister, | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
Caral ni Chuilin, endorsed the new funding model for Irish groups | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
across the island. Under the cross party group, six new groups will | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
take up work previously done by 19. It means Belfast waste groups will | :51:36. | :51:45. | |
disappear. -- Belfast -based groups. It will have a detrimental effect on | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
services for the Irish language community. We are talking about | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
dismantling the whole of the infrastructure for the Irish | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
language community. You think Sinn Fein have misjudged this? It seems | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
to me that yes, they have. Whether they set out to do that or not, I am | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
not sure, but these are the consequences of the decisions made | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
at the ministerial Council. As an all Ireland party, Sinn Fein | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
actually like the idea of Irish language provision on a 32 county, | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
all Ireland basis. Money and particular the amount spent on | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
salaries, is part of their argument for change. It's more important to | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
focus on spending the money wisely in future. A slimmer organisation | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
which delivers more efficiently and effectively, that is what Sinn Fein | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
wants to see, we want to see that delivered in Belfast, in the north | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
and throughout the whole island. Another group could vanish. The West | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
Belfast body works in the Irish free school sector. Since 2008, they have | :52:57. | :53:05. | |
had nearly ?1 million. The group has secured half a million from other | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
sources. Staff here reject suggestions that too much money is | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
spent on salaries. We have actually been paid pro rata a lot less than | :53:14. | :53:22. | |
people would be in the South. The same kind of work as we are doing. | :53:23. | :53:32. | |
We don't think we are overstaffed and we certainly don't think we are | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
overpaid! The change will mean all six of the newly groups are in the | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
Republic. None of them are in Northern Ireland. This was not about | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
North versus South, East versus West. This is about promoting the | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
language and providing better services in a more efficient way to | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
the Irish language communities. It's about getting people out into the | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
community, providing services. If electronics rather than politics is | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
driving this debate, have Sinn Fein got this one right? It could be | :54:06. | :54:13. | |
linked to the austerity agenda in the South, it is curious to see Sinn | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
Fein, who are so anti-austerity in the south supporting this, claiming | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
it is part of an all Ireland agenda that they have. It is curious they | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
would pick on the northern groups, who were receiving only a fraction | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
of the funding in the first place. Pebble, the umbrella organisation, | :54:34. | :54:41. | |
and a development agency, will also face budget cuts. Across all the | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
northern -based groups, it is feared around fifth in jobs could be lost. | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
The funding for those is going to disappear after 31st of June. We are | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
in the middle of February, so you can imagine, it is a grey cloud over | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
everybody. On the 30th of June, when core funding is removed, these | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
offices will close and the staff will be made redundant. Sinn Fein | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
say talk of redundancies is premature. The people who have | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
worked in those groups, I feel, need to be part of the new arrangement so | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
they need to be engaging with the lead group which deals with their | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
range of work. Some of them will be made redundant. Nobody knows that | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
for sure because the process is still ongoing, and we don't know who | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
is going to be redundant stop Sinn Fein insist they have done much to | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
promote the Irish language. So does their stance on this issue caused | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
political difficulties? It is oddly partition list, from a nationalist | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
or republican perspective. Politically, it makes sense for Sinn | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
Fein, they will create this all Ireland structure, they have this | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
minister, Caral ni Chuilin, who has an important role in driving that, | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
but it does look very odd when Sinn Fein would never normally refuse to | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
call for more money or special treatment or local favouritism, for | :56:10. | :56:17. | |
any issue. The Irish language sector is facing its biggest ever change. | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
This week some of those facing budget cuts went to Stormont to | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
argue their case. They hope their words were listened to and those | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
planning this move will have a last-minute change of heart. | :56:29. | :56:37. | |
Sheila Davidson and Orna Young are with them. Let's talk about | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
education. Has the Minister had to think again about his policy as far | :56:44. | :56:53. | |
as the common -- as far as the Common Funding Formula is concerned? | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
Clearly there has been, it smacks to me of a postponement, of the | :56:59. | :57:06. | |
inevitable, it effectively. But it is interesting that he made the | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
point, there is plenty of money there, I am able to reorganise my | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
budget to deal with this issue. My question was, why not do that before | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
you put the principals, teachers and parents through the discomfort they | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
have been through? For me, it is political playacting. You pull the | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
rabbit out of the hat, 15 million out of the hat, I have solved the | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
problem that I established in the first instance. The fact remains | :57:32. | :57:33. | |
that an awful lot of school resources went into responding, and | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
it seems to me that the one thing he says that is the best thing out of | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
all of this, was the engagement. Why have such a negative engagement? Why | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
put that 50 million into the schools if that metric is the best one, | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
which I think is questionable. At the end of the day, why not just | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
give it out and not have the resource of all the schools you had | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
to submit plans and have the worry of contingencies, which they have | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
had to start taking about, taken out of the way? I will come back to you | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
both in a moment. Now, let's take a look back at this week's political | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
news in 60 seconds - with Stephen Walker. | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
Health dominated politics as the Royal's department came under | :58:22. | :58:34. | |
scrutiny. Allegations of bullying, staff under intolerable pressure... | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
I'm flabbergasted with what I've heard tonight. I have heard talk | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
about the Royal as if this is only emerged over the last few days. | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
Another MLA also had health concerns. Another survey, 12 months | :58:49. | :58:55. | |
down the line, in those 12 months millions will have died waiting on | :58:56. | :59:02. | |
transplants. Gregory Campbell told Martin McGuinness how to make | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
friends and influence people. Counting the number of people who do | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
speak to you and don't speak to you at Stormont, making you look and | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
sound like a real loser. There was a call to ban election posters. | :59:18. | :59:31. | |
Election posters, are they ever going to be banned? I would like to | :59:32. | :59:40. | |
fix. I think they are unsightly. Strangely old-fashioned, aren't | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
they? I couldn't agree more. I think those who are on the ball have | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
already engaged with social media. Sheila, you are a PR expert, how big | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
an own goal be to have the eyes of hundreds of millions of people on | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
Northern Ireland, looking at election posters? I don't know if it | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
would be so terrible, I think we could do without them... They are | :00:05. | :00:12. | |
not the most attractive... But we're not going to know any of these | :00:13. | :00:14. | |
people standing for election! This might be the only way. Even you | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
couldn't have them all on. This is going to be a massive change in | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
terms of the faces coming forward. I am looking forward to seeing and | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
hearing some new voices and faces. You think it might influence you, | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
the posters? Not a bit of it. Thank you both. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
direction? No, in real terms now the rent is falling in London. Andrew, | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
back to you. Welcome back. Let's start by talking | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
about the weather. What could be more British? It has been | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
practically the only topic of conversation for the past few | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
weeks. This morning, Ed Miliband has made the direct link, declaims, | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
between this exceptionally wet and windy weather and climate change. | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
That's an interesting development, taking place. Ed Miliband is the | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
author of the 2008 Climate Change Act, so he has to stick to that line | :01:14. | :01:22. | |
or his life 's work goes up in smoke. When he passed it, there was | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
Westminster consensus. Now the Tories are beginning to appeal off. | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
UKIP has definitely peeled off. Labour and Lib Dems are sticking to | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
their guns, there is now a debate? It has moved from consensus to very | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
fragile consensus. It's an interesting tactic for Ed Miliband | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
to take. He could either approach the floods talking about government | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
failures and handling, instead he has gone for the intellectual | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
argument, try and turn this into a debate about ideology and climate | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
change. I think he will find that quite difficult. Partly, I don't | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
think the public I get listening to an argument like that. Partly | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
because only one in three of the public totally agree with him. The | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
polls for The Times think that about one in three think that man-made I'm | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
a change is responsible for these floods, the rest do not. I'm not | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
sure that the interventions will be particularly well picked up. It puts | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
David Cameron in a difficult position. He was hugging those | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
huskies, it was going to be the greenest Government ever, and now he | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
has an Environment secretary that doesn't really believe in climate | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
change. Well, we don't know where he stands. That is not where he was in | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
2010. It has always been sold to us that he is statesman-like and | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
pragmatic, but that drifts into he doesn't really believe anything. | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
This is a worldwide phenomenon now. You've got the Canadian government, | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
they are pretty sceptical these days. The new Australian government | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
is pretty sceptical. The Obama administration has been attacked by | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
the green movement across the United States, he is probably about to | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
approve the keystone pipeline that will take over the Texas refineries. | :03:06. | :03:15. | |
What was a huge consensus across the globe is a guinea to break down? | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
Probably started to break down about the time of the financial crisis, | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
the age of austerity, when suddenly people had more to worry about than | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
green issues. Even at home it is a slightly risky tactic for Ed | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
Miliband. The idea there is a scientific consensus on this, there | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
isn't. You look at Professor Collins this morning, climate systems | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
expert, saying, actually, the jet stream is not operating further | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
south because of climate change. Or if it is, it is beyond our | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
knowledge. He flies in the face of what Ed Miliband as saying. He's | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
saying the wet weather is caused by global warming, the head of science | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
at Exeter University says the IPCC originally looked at whether climate | :03:59. | :04:00. | |
change could affect what happens to the jet stream and, because it had | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
no evidence it had any effect, it decided not to include it at all in | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
the IPCC report. The problem we have got is that any individual | :04:13. | :04:14. | |
phenomenon is difficult to attribute to climate change. But the Labour | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
Leader just have? And The Met Office have done the same thing. It's a | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
fragile in, but overall we can say we are getting more extreme weather | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
than ever. The most extreme weather, hurricanes and tropical storm is, | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
they have been in decline. Equally, we have had ten of the hottest | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
summers in the last ten years since 1998. Overall, there is a case that | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
can be made that we are getting more. Each individual thing is | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
difficult to say. Until recently, almost everyone agreed with that | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
case. Now the parties are reflecting differences. I wanted to move on, | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
what did you make of two interesting things that happened with the | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
interview with UKIP and the Tories, one Cory saying I am voting to come | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
out, and the UKIP chap saying we are maxed out on Tory defectors, we | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
can't get any more? I think that was a dangerous admission from Patrick | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
O'Flynn from UKIP, essentially saying that their vote has peaked. | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
Looking at the by-elections, I'm not sure that was a particularly wise | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
reflection on that. They got 18%, 23% last year. The case he is making | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
is that there are more votes to be gained by attracting former Labour | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
voters than former Tories. I'm not sure that red UKIP, the bit of UKIP | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
that tries to make benefit protection and some other kind of | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
social issues at the heart really sits comfortably with their | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
insurgent, anti-state message. I don't think it will do particularly | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
well. This is why they are pushing the message, it is their response to | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
the idea and suggestion of a Tory rallying cry that they vote for | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
Nigel Farage, and it is really a vote for Ed Miliband. Patrick is a | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
very good journalist, a very good commentator. He answered almost as a | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
commentator rather than head of communications for a political | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
party. The Government are still trying to rid itself of troublesome | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
priests, an attack on welfare reforms from the Catholic Archbishop | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
of Westminster. Let's have a look and see what he said. The basic | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
safety net that was there to guarantee that people would not be | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
left in hunger or in destitution has actually been torn apart. It no | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
longer exists. And it is a real, real, dramatic crisis. The second is | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
that, in this context, the administration of social assistance, | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
I am told, has become more and more punitive. If applicants do not get | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
it right, they have to wait and they have to wait for ten days, two | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
weeks, with nothing. Has the basic safety net disappeared? I don't see | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
how it is possible to argue that. It is certainly the case that there | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
have been reductions in various benefits, some benefits have been | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
scrapped and there is a welfare reform programme. But this country | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
is still spending ?94 billion a year on working age benefits. Excluding | :07:19. | :07:27. | |
pensions? The idea that this equates to some sort of wiping out of the | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
safety net is... He has gone on a full frontal assault on the Tory | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
reforms, not the kind of attack that Labour would be prepared to make? | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
No, they know that it doesn't play very well in the country. He's not | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
up for election. Whether or not you agree about the safety net, I think | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
the welfare reforms have been poorly managed and I don't think that is a | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
full dispute. Universal credit, it is in some very long grass. It had | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
some stupid ideas, like the idea that it would be paid monthly, | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
instead of weekly, meaning that people are more likely to run out of | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
money by the end of the month. It's interesting, in the past, when | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
members of the cloth have attacked the government for welfare reforms, | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
the Government have responded by trying to paint them as lefties, | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
ideological driven. I think that is hard in this case, an assault made | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
deliberately in the Telegraph from somebody who feels they come from a | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
centre-right position. I think there will be a bit of awkwardness about | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
this intervention. It is not the kind of thing they wanted to see. Is | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
it politically damaging for the Government? It is if it makes them | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
look mean-spirited. But that is the problem with welfare reforms. You | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
can say all sorts of things about Iain Duncan Smith's competence. But | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
the whole thing springs from a moral mission, as he sees it, to liberate | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
the poor and extend opportunity. One of the worst moments for the Tories | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
was blaming the low level of voting in Wythenshawe and sale in the fact | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
that the constituency had, in the words of one senior Tory, the | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
largest council estate in Europe inside its constituency boundary. | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
The point being what? Because you live in a council estate you don't | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
vote? That they don't see people living in council estate as one of | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
them, not an impulse that Margaret Thatcher would have had. I think | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
it's dangerous if they are painting is people as opponents rather than | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
trying to win them over. When they do vote, they determine elections! | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
The idea that there is no such thing as a working-class Tory is toxic. I | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
want to show you a picture. There we go. It is behind me, on the 5th of | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
February, it is all men. And then, on the next, look at that, the 12th, | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
there are a few women. Not exactly many, but some. It is an | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
improvement. But it is so transparent, isn't it? We phoned up | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
one of the women that sat behind David Cameron to ask, why the sudden | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
change? They said, I don't know why you are bothering to ask, it is | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
completely natural, we didn't do anything to stage manage it. Did his | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
nose gets longer? It is something that is very transparent and | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
depressing about the way politicians choose to react to these moments. | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
Every week they put two women behind David Cameron, so that a tight shot | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
shows them. It is called the doughnut. They don't have many women | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
to shuffle around, there are only four among 14 in the Shadow Cabinet. | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
Also, the fact that women, younger women in particular, are much less | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
likely to vote Tory than five or ten years ago. David Cameron, it drives | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
and furious, he is obviously aware this is one of the biggest potential | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
demographic problem is that they have. It also reminds us of how the | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
public can actually see the wiring behind a lot of the stuff. Do they | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
really think your blog so stupid that they will not notice that the | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
following week the front bench is packed with women? I think it just | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
increases contempt for the entire rocket. It is an issue where Labour | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
seem to have pulled ahead of the other parties. We are being told | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
that 50% of candidates in their 100 target seats will be female. It | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
looks like the composition of Labour continues to go towards a kind of | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
rough 50-50 split, eventually. Although that is true, I think the | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
faces we see on the telly, Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, Chris Leslie, | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
they are almost always men. There is a Rachel Reeves, a prominent female | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
face that goes up a lot. But really, the number of e-mails they put up is | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
proportionally a lot smaller. Is the Miliband team still a men's club? | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
Behind the scenes, it is very blokey. It's been described as a | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
kind of seminar room at a university. I think that is true. | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
The Observer did the cutout and keep of the people behind Mr Miliband. As | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
opposed to the Shadow Cabinet, with lots of women in it, it was very | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
male. The one reason Labour have all of these women to put up in | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
constituencies is all women short lists is. If Tories want to change | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
things, I know they can be prone to minute -- and in relation, but they | :12:27. | :12:38. | |
work. In ten years time, I think it will give Labour an immense | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
advantage. By then, I think they will have a woman leader. Who will | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
that be? Potentially somebody not even yet in the Commons. You can see | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
how quickly people can rise to the top, but the Labour Party is going | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
to be increasingly donated by women. Do you think there will be a Labour | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
Leader before Theresa May becomes leader of the Conservatives? I think | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
it is ultimately about Osborne trying to stop Boris. I think I | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
would be astonished if she managed it. The first female Labour Leader? | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
I would pick Rachel Reeves the way it is currently going, she knows her | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
stuff and does well on TV. That is all for this week. We have a week | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
off now. I'll be back in the week after next. Remember, if it is | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless it's a Parliamentary recess. | :13:42. | :13:44. |