16/07/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


16/07/2017

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by Liam Fox and Rebecca Long-Bailey. Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:40.

With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling

:00:41.:00:44.

onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international

:00:45.:00:47.

trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future

:00:48.:00:48.

Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out

:00:49.:00:56.

Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own

:00:57.:00:59.

divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear

:01:00.:01:01.

And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more

:01:02.:01:06.

hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again,

:01:07.:01:08.

If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti

:01:09.:01:16.

the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished.

:01:17.:01:24.

The First Ministers of Scotland and Wales met

:01:25.:01:28.

Michel Barnier this week - so is Northern Ireland missing out

:01:29.:01:31.

when it comes to influencing the Brexit negotiations?

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Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it

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by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed

:01:48.:01:49.

And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've

:01:50.:01:52.

won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job.

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It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn.

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First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting

:02:08.:02:10.

of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines,

:02:11.:02:12.

most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond.

:02:13.:02:14.

Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may

:02:15.:02:19.

not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times

:02:20.:02:22.

says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers

:02:23.:02:27.

as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events.

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Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning,

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and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source

:02:33.:02:34.

of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit.

:02:35.:02:40.

If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people

:02:41.:02:43.

who are not happy with the agenda that I have,

:02:44.:02:46.

tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit

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which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting

:02:56.:02:59.

our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living

:03:00.:03:02.

So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being

:03:03.:03:15.

undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's

:03:16.:03:19.

quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely

:03:20.:03:27.

true. That's the least controversial part of it! The briefing is his

:03:28.:03:33.

position on Brexit and also frustration on his position over

:03:34.:03:36.

public sector pay then it is over any kind of leadership manoeuvrings.

:03:37.:03:41.

We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that he was doubling down on the issue of

:03:42.:03:47.

public sector pay rises. He didn't categorically deny using the words

:03:48.:03:51.

of overpaid, in fact he reiterated the fact he sees them as whether

:03:52.:03:57.

they are overpaid or not so I believe he did use that phrase but

:03:58.:04:01.

clearly he's got the tone wrong and I don't think he's done himself any

:04:02.:04:06.

favours. He's a pretty wealthy man himself, multimillionaire. He must

:04:07.:04:14.

have some kind of political deafness if he thinks it's OK for someone in

:04:15.:04:20.

his position to say, in a number of cases, lowly paid public sector

:04:21.:04:25.

workers are overpaid? I think he is politically deaf, and not

:04:26.:04:28.

emotionally intelligent. He has a great head for figures but very poor

:04:29.:04:40.

at expressing himself. It was a crass remark over women train

:04:41.:04:54.

drivers. He may be in the right place on some arguments, he's just

:04:55.:04:58.

extremely poor at expressing and that's what gives his opponents the

:04:59.:05:02.

chance to rip his head off. He should have worked out by now that

:05:03.:05:08.

it is clear whatever... Because of the dim munition of Mrs May's

:05:09.:05:11.

authority that whatever you see in the Cabinet now is likely to become

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public in some shape or form. I think this is the profound lesson of

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the story, that Cabinet discussion is almost impossible now, and

:05:22.:05:27.

Hammond will go away this summer thinking I can't engage in a proper

:05:28.:05:31.

debate in Cabinet because they will leak it. It sounds as if they were

:05:32.:05:35.

having quite a grown-up conversation about public sector pay with a

:05:36.:05:39.

spending department ministers putting the case for breaking the

:05:40.:05:42.

cup and Hammond saying from the Treasury perspective this is what's

:05:43.:05:47.

happening. Which is what normally happens in Cabinet. He would hope

:05:48.:05:52.

so, not any more. He won't be able to speak his mind in Cabinet because

:05:53.:05:57.

he knows it will be leaked and that is another sign of fragility of this

:05:58.:06:00.

Government, when you cannot have a grown-up discussion about public

:06:01.:06:05.

sector pay even in Cabinet, and that means Cabinet discussion which is

:06:06.:06:08.

urgently needed on Brexit and the rest of it cannot happen in an open

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way because leaking is happening. Mrs May is not exactly top of the

:06:16.:06:18.

Pops with her own party at the moment but doesn't help her in the

:06:19.:06:24.

fact that her Chancellor is even less top of the Pops? The key thing

:06:25.:06:28.

is that backbenchers don't want a leadership contest at the moment.

:06:29.:06:33.

There are a number of Cabinet ministers or more senior figures who

:06:34.:06:37.

have been around longer who may feel this is their last chance of the

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leadership and they are urgently wanting it happen now. Backbenchers

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don't want it, I don't think it will happen. Will it happen? I don't

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think it will. There are egos clashing in the Cabinet and also

:06:54.:07:01.

many who just want things to stay the way they are, so they will. We

:07:02.:07:03.

will talk more about this leadership matter later in the programme, but

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let's move on. This week the government passed

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another Brexit milestone when in introduced the Repeal Bill

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to the Commons. It will incorporate all EU law

:07:09.:07:10.

into the UK's domestic And although a vote on the Bill

:07:11.:07:12.

isn't due until the autumn, the government still has plenty

:07:13.:07:16.

on its plate when it Brexit secretary David Davis

:07:17.:07:19.

and the EU's negotiator Michel Barnier will sit down

:07:20.:07:22.

for another helping of Brexit negotiations in Brussels

:07:23.:07:24.

this week. Progress now needs to be made

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on some big questions. They include: the rights of EU

:07:27.:07:29.

citizens living here, How to maintain an open border

:07:30.:07:31.

between Northern Ireland And the size of the financial

:07:32.:07:38.

settlement or so-called divorce bill Previous estimates have included a

:07:39.:07:43.

figure of The British government has put no

:07:44.:07:50.

figure on it, simply saying it This week, Foreign Secretary

:07:51.:07:56.

Boris Johnson said the EU could "go whistle" if it was

:07:57.:08:02.

expecting an extortionate fee Brussels wants this set

:08:03.:08:04.

of negotiations focusing on the principles of separation

:08:05.:08:17.

to be done by the end of the year. They can then turn to the main

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event, the future trading relationship between the UK

:08:21.:08:23.

and the EU. While the UK remains a member

:08:24.:08:25.

of the EU customs union, it cannot But it can hold advanced discussions

:08:26.:08:28.

with other countries. This week, Australian Prime Minister

:08:29.:08:32.

Malcolm Turnbull said his country was very keen for a deal

:08:33.:08:35.

as quickly as possible. And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump

:08:36.:08:40.

said he wanted to sign a very powerful UK-US trade

:08:41.:08:43.

deal very quickly. But as trade deals normally

:08:44.:08:48.

take years to negotiate, it is unclear when the first ones

:08:49.:08:51.

will be ready for post-Brexit So there will be plenty

:08:52.:08:54.

for both sides to digest, as negotiations continue

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over the summer. I'm joined

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by the International Trade Your brief is to agree new free

:09:08.:09:18.

trade deals but you cannot sign any until Brexit is done, can you even

:09:19.:09:23.

begin proper negotiations this side of Brexit or is that illegal too? We

:09:24.:09:29.

cannot negotiate and conclude a trade agreement but we can scope

:09:30.:09:35.

them out. We can get our preparatory work done. We have got ten working

:09:36.:09:40.

groups established across the world with countries from Korea to the

:09:41.:09:45.

United States to Australia. I know scoping the out is fine, you can

:09:46.:09:49.

talk about trade but you cannot begin formal trade negotiations

:09:50.:09:54.

until after Brexit. No, but we have trade working agreements. Free trade

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agreements are not the only thing that are in the mix as it were, they

:09:58.:10:04.

are what people think about but we also have mutual recognition

:10:05.:10:07.

agreements where we can reduce some of the barriers to trade, the

:10:08.:10:13.

technical barriers, in that process. We have a number of other things

:10:14.:10:17.

going on. We have got to get our trading schedules in Switzerland and

:10:18.:10:22.

Geneva and the World Trade Organisation organised. We then have

:10:23.:10:26.

40 EU free trade agreements and we have to get them ready because if we

:10:27.:10:30.

were not to negotiate those and be ready on the first day of Brexit,

:10:31.:10:35.

there would be huge market disruption. Although you can clearly

:10:36.:10:39.

do a lot of technical work and you can talk till the cows come home,

:10:40.:10:45.

there will be no free trade deals on the shelf ready to sign come March

:10:46.:10:53.

2019 when we are leaving the EU, that's correct isn't it? Technically

:10:54.:11:00.

there will be new ones... There will be no free trade deals ready to say

:11:01.:11:06.

right, we are out, here is a deal I have baked earlier. Not right away

:11:07.:11:10.

because we are not permitted to do that as part of our membership of

:11:11.:11:13.

the European Union and one of the things I want to get is greater

:11:14.:11:18.

freedom to be able to negotiate on behalf of the UK. That's not

:11:19.:11:21.

possible when you are inside the customs union. There's much talk of

:11:22.:11:28.

a transition after 2019. You told Bloomberg you didn't mind a few

:11:29.:11:31.

months, the Chancellor this morning said it would be a couple of years.

:11:32.:11:38.

What is it? The key thing is why would you have a transitional

:11:39.:11:41.

arrangements, how long would it be and what would the conditions be.

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For me first we have to leave the European Union in March 2019 so

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there can be no case of extending EU membership. At that point as a third

:11:53.:11:59.

country we can have a transition agreement which keeps as little

:12:00.:12:01.

disruption as possible but it has to have an end date. You said a few

:12:02.:12:07.

months, the Chancellor said a few years, why the difference? As the

:12:08.:12:11.

Chancellor said, it is more a technical argument, because for

:12:12.:12:16.

example how do we get new border equipment in place, how do we get

:12:17.:12:20.

the arrangements for immigration put in place, but for me, you know, I've

:12:21.:12:24.

waited a long time and campaigned long time to leave the European

:12:25.:12:30.

Union. As long as we leave in March 2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a

:12:31.:12:34.

time-limited transitional period to make it work for business. The

:12:35.:12:38.

Chancellor doesn't deny the transition could take up four years.

:12:39.:12:44.

The Brexit Secretary David Davis says it could be a maximum of three

:12:45.:12:50.

years, you are talking months. Shouldn't you sort this out around

:12:51.:12:53.

the Cabinet table instead of all three of you sending mixed messages?

:12:54.:13:00.

We are dependent on for example what HMRC Tal us, how investment is

:13:01.:13:04.

going. It's also a question of negotiating with our European

:13:05.:13:09.

partners. We know what's involved, why are you sending out these mixed

:13:10.:13:14.

messages? I don't have a problem with the transition period as long

:13:15.:13:19.

as it is time-limited. It is not just the time, it is the conditions.

:13:20.:13:23.

I want in the transitional period to be able to negotiate agreements at

:13:24.:13:28.

that point. We cannot have a putting off over the freedom to negotiate

:13:29.:13:32.

trade agreements. At the moment is it clear you would be able to sign

:13:33.:13:40.

any free trade deals during a transition period? No, that's to be

:13:41.:13:47.

negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr Davies is right, up to three or four

:13:48.:13:53.

years, it could be 2021 before you get to sign a free trade deal. We

:13:54.:13:58.

don't now how long any would take to negotiate. They don't happen

:13:59.:14:04.

overnight. Would you even be able to negotiate during a transition

:14:05.:14:08.

period? I would hope so, that is one of the conditions we might set. It

:14:09.:14:13.

is certainly something I would want to see because otherwise it makes it

:14:14.:14:16.

much more difficult to take advantage of the opportunities that

:14:17.:14:20.

Brexit itself would produce. Your ink will run dry before you get to

:14:21.:14:25.

sign one of these agreements. We have a huge amount to do and it's

:14:26.:14:31.

not just at the free trade agreement level. We have for example what we

:14:32.:14:35.

get at the World Trade Organisation because the real game for the UK is

:14:36.:14:40.

to get a global liberalisation in the services sector -- the real

:14:41.:14:48.

gain. And I want to come onto that in a minute but before do, are you

:14:49.:14:53.

group of the Cabinet ministers that seems to regularly be briefing

:14:54.:14:58.

against Philip Hammond? No, I deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I

:14:59.:15:04.

think my colleagues should be quiet, stick to their duties, and I expect

:15:05.:15:11.

discipline to be effective. The only people smiling that this will be

:15:12.:15:17.

people in Berlin and Paris. Why are people doing it? The need to have

:15:18.:15:24.

less prosecco. They don't trust Philip Hammond, do they? I don't

:15:25.:15:30.

think that is true. I read in the press we have very different views,

:15:31.:15:33.

in fact our views are very similar on things like transition. I don't

:15:34.:15:38.

know where it is coming from but I think it should stop.

:15:39.:15:45.

But it is happening? It is happening and I think it undermines the

:15:46.:15:50.

position of the government. We do not need an interim leader or an

:15:51.:15:55.

alternative leader. We have a very good competent leader in Theresa

:15:56.:16:01.

May. But he thinks it is being done by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know

:16:02.:16:05.

who is doing it and they should stop. Let's come back to the tariff

:16:06.:16:11.

free trade. There is much talk about that. The Chancellor says much of

:16:12.:16:16.

our trade with the world is in services and free trade deals won't

:16:17.:16:20.

make any particular difference. Do you agree with him? They can make a

:16:21.:16:25.

difference. It has been estimated with the OECD that free trade deals

:16:26.:16:30.

with the United States could add ?42 billion to our bilateral trade by

:16:31.:16:37.

2030. There is a game to be made. In an economy like the UK which is 80%

:16:38.:16:42.

services, what we would benefit from is a range of global liberalisation.

:16:43.:16:47.

One example is data. We have an economy where we talk about freedom

:16:48.:16:50.

of movement of goods and services, but you also have to have the

:16:51.:16:54.

freedom of movement of data. One thing I would like the UK to lead on

:16:55.:17:00.

is to look to a global agreement on that. But the talks have come to an

:17:01.:17:06.

end. There is no great global movement. That is not true. We have

:17:07.:17:13.

just had a multilateral agreement, the trade facilitation was signed

:17:14.:17:16.

this year which seeks to diminish friction at customs around the world

:17:17.:17:21.

and will add 70 billion to the economy. But it leaves plenty of

:17:22.:17:25.

nontariff barriers in place. The moment you start to talk about these

:17:26.:17:29.

complicated rules and regulations that hinder services, it does not

:17:30.:17:34.

make free trade deals impossible, it makes them much more on placated and

:17:35.:17:40.

prolonged to do. Correct? You need to look at what is happening in the

:17:41.:17:46.

global economy. According to the OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20

:17:47.:17:51.

countries were operating about 300 nontariff barriers. By the end of

:17:52.:17:55.

2015, they were operating nearly three times that number. The silting

:17:56.:18:00.

up of growth and global trade is being done by the global economy. We

:18:01.:18:05.

need to be looking at how we can remove some of those barriers,

:18:06.:18:09.

because otherwise our prosperity becomes limited. Is it still your

:18:10.:18:14.

view that no deal would be better than a bad deal? Anyone who goes

:18:15.:18:20.

into that negotiation without that is foolish. We will not accept any

:18:21.:18:24.

deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the

:18:25.:18:29.

referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal

:18:30.:18:33.

rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no

:18:34.:18:39.

deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we

:18:40.:18:44.

have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I

:18:45.:18:49.

think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very

:18:50.:18:55.

important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right.

:18:56.:18:58.

Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away

:18:59.:19:02.

rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did

:19:03.:19:06.

not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree

:19:07.:19:22.

with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do

:19:23.:19:27.

not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to

:19:28.:19:31.

accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with

:19:32.:19:34.

have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and

:19:35.:19:38.

say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go

:19:39.:19:43.

into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government

:19:44.:19:48.

is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday

:19:49.:19:55.

newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this

:19:56.:19:58.

morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the --

:19:59.:20:06.

market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some

:20:07.:20:11.

other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a

:20:12.:20:17.

contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all

:20:18.:20:21.

working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to

:20:22.:20:25.

the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say

:20:26.:20:31.

there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across

:20:32.:20:35.

Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are

:20:36.:20:41.

contingency plans and my department and other departments have

:20:42.:20:45.

specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not

:20:46.:20:50.

correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I

:20:51.:20:55.

understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He

:20:56.:20:59.

is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I

:21:00.:21:05.

would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would

:21:06.:21:11.

you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you

:21:12.:21:20.

mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union

:21:21.:21:25.

at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what

:21:26.:21:31.

we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is

:21:32.:21:35.

if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put

:21:36.:21:41.

politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If

:21:42.:21:47.

they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those

:21:48.:21:50.

international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think

:21:51.:21:56.

you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you

:21:57.:21:59.

have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I

:22:00.:22:05.

would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are

:22:06.:22:09.

coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law.

:22:10.:22:14.

Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side

:22:15.:22:19.

for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented.

:22:20.:22:25.

Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we

:22:26.:22:29.

should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of

:22:30.:22:30.

our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a

:22:31.:22:55.

negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell

:22:56.:22:58.

you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another

:22:59.:23:00.

question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other

:23:01.:23:03.

countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada

:23:04.:23:05.

are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing

:23:06.:23:09.

basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after

:23:10.:23:11.

Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something

:23:12.:23:16.

so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to

:23:17.:23:21.

trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet

:23:22.:23:27.

been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on

:23:28.:23:31.

trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on

:23:32.:23:37.

the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have

:23:38.:23:44.

working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value.

:23:45.:23:49.

Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry

:23:50.:23:53.

out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of

:23:54.:23:58.

Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we

:23:59.:24:03.

will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral

:24:04.:24:09.

agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in

:24:10.:24:16.

Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck

:24:17.:24:21.

leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on

:24:22.:24:26.

Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that

:24:27.:24:33.

about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's

:24:34.:24:39.

negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments,

:24:40.:24:42.

they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time.

:24:43.:24:46.

They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we

:24:47.:24:50.

have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British

:24:51.:24:53.

people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going

:24:54.:24:58.

to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else

:24:59.:25:02.

says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to

:25:03.:25:06.

get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on

:25:07.:25:10.

with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they

:25:11.:25:14.

do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the

:25:15.:25:17.

reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you.

:25:18.:25:22.

Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's

:25:23.:25:25.

chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier.

:25:26.:25:26.

We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's

:25:27.:25:28.

But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship

:25:29.:25:32.

with the single market and the customs union -

:25:33.:25:34.

Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier.

:25:35.:25:37.

I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits

:25:38.:25:39.

of the customs union, and that's one of the issues

:25:40.:25:42.

Does it mean staying inside or leaving?

:25:43.:25:46.

Keep all the options open, keep all the options...

:25:47.:25:48.

Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union?

:25:49.:25:50.

We are concentrating on the objectives rather

:25:51.:25:53.

than the structures and that seems to have a resonance

:25:54.:25:56.

I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary

:25:57.:25:59.

Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio.

:26:00.:26:03.

Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election

:26:04.:26:10.

it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some

:26:11.:26:14.

answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of

:26:15.:26:18.

Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it

:26:19.:26:22.

want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union.

:26:23.:26:28.

We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The

:26:29.:26:31.

end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are

:26:32.:26:32.

standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on

:26:33.:26:54.

that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of

:26:55.:26:56.

the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is

:26:57.:26:59.

open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum

:27:00.:27:02.

and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our

:27:03.:27:04.

laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single

:27:05.:27:06.

market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be

:27:07.:27:09.

seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting

:27:10.:27:12.

access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I

:27:13.:27:18.

am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would

:27:19.:27:22.

negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the

:27:23.:27:25.

consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow

:27:26.:27:31.

from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits

:27:32.:27:35.

we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will

:27:36.:27:39.

be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one

:27:40.:27:43.

of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people

:27:44.:27:48.

were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we

:27:49.:27:52.

could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the

:27:53.:27:57.

other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We

:27:58.:28:02.

have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member.

:28:03.:28:08.

Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again,

:28:09.:28:14.

the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the

:28:15.:28:20.

customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties

:28:21.:28:23.

in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength?

:28:24.:28:27.

We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am

:28:28.:28:35.

asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice

:28:36.:28:43.

not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in

:28:44.:28:48.

the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be

:28:49.:28:53.

able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that

:28:54.:29:00.

in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point

:29:01.:29:04.

for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs

:29:05.:29:08.

union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part

:29:09.:29:13.

of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face

:29:14.:29:18.

without coming out of the customs union without any transitional

:29:19.:29:21.

arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you

:29:22.:29:26.

do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single

:29:27.:29:29.

market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single

:29:30.:29:39.

union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade

:29:40.:29:44.

deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the

:29:45.:29:51.

negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have

:29:52.:29:56.

negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside

:29:57.:30:00.

agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended

:30:01.:30:03.

settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we

:30:04.:30:09.

have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,

:30:10.:30:14.

says people would interpret remaining in the single market is

:30:15.:30:17.

not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep

:30:18.:30:21.

open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is

:30:22.:30:25.

automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single

:30:26.:30:28.

market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we

:30:29.:30:33.

would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make

:30:34.:30:37.

as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying

:30:38.:30:40.

it is completely off the table because stranger things have

:30:41.:30:45.

happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more

:30:46.:30:49.

on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we

:30:50.:30:52.

negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that.

:30:53.:30:58.

But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the

:30:59.:31:05.

result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU

:31:06.:31:10.

you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's

:31:11.:31:14.

extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because

:31:15.:31:18.

stranger things have happened and this process so far has been

:31:19.:31:23.

extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating

:31:24.:31:27.

position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating

:31:28.:31:35.

position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to

:31:36.:31:38.

retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union

:31:39.:31:43.

and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot

:31:44.:31:48.

point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means

:31:49.:31:58.

Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and

:31:59.:32:02.

Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element

:32:03.:32:07.

of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was

:32:08.:32:11.

categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently

:32:12.:32:17.

Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The

:32:18.:32:22.

point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are

:32:23.:32:27.

extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There

:32:28.:32:35.

is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government

:32:36.:32:38.

has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is

:32:39.:32:43.

made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative

:32:44.:32:47.

membership for example but the clear position overall is that free

:32:48.:32:51.

movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed

:32:52.:32:55.

migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages

:32:56.:32:59.

for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that

:33:00.:33:02.

end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels

:33:03.:33:07.

labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another

:33:08.:33:14.

topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning

:33:15.:33:18.

the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is

:33:19.:33:25.

social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in

:33:26.:33:32.

Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social

:33:33.:33:38.

murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my

:33:39.:33:44.

constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same

:33:45.:33:49.

cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House

:33:50.:33:53.

fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government

:33:54.:33:58.

should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and

:33:59.:34:04.

they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst

:34:05.:34:09.

also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary

:34:10.:34:14.

remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is

:34:15.:34:24.

important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell

:34:25.:34:29.

Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I

:34:30.:34:34.

go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John...

:34:35.:34:43.

Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were

:34:44.:34:52.

they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit

:34:53.:34:57.

sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question,

:34:58.:35:02.

dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that

:35:03.:35:07.

appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a

:35:08.:35:12.

simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact

:35:13.:35:18.

is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty

:35:19.:35:22.

of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken

:35:23.:35:27.

through the courts, and could be classified as corporate

:35:28.:35:33.

manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The

:35:34.:35:38.

point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit

:35:39.:35:42.

sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building

:35:43.:35:45.

regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and

:35:46.:35:51.

time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want

:35:52.:35:56.

the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey

:35:57.:35:59.

from Salford, thank you for joining us.

:36:00.:36:02.

You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised

:36:03.:36:05.

and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having

:36:06.:36:07.

The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote

:36:08.:36:11.

is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's

:36:12.:36:16.

Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip

:36:17.:36:34.

about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And

:36:35.:36:41.

there is plotting. This programme understands Ukip's ruling body could

:36:42.:36:46.

ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to

:36:47.:36:52.

go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist,

:36:53.:36:56.

wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more

:36:57.:37:00.

about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is

:37:01.:37:04.

growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new

:37:05.:37:08.

members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I

:37:09.:37:15.

don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam

:37:16.:37:21.

and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised

:37:22.:37:26.

in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are

:37:27.:37:29.

millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't

:37:30.:37:36.

want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed

:37:37.:37:41.

to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be

:37:42.:37:45.

the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro

:37:46.:37:51.

future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a

:37:52.:38:00.

party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I

:38:01.:38:03.

don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing

:38:04.:38:07.

and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say

:38:08.:38:11.

the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its

:38:12.:38:12.

integration agenda. Banning

:38:13.:38:20.

the burka and physically checking children for female

:38:21.:38:21.

genital mutilation. If we don't really do something

:38:22.:38:23.

about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go

:38:24.:38:26.

further but also suspects The party chairman says

:38:27.:38:28.

there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution,

:38:29.:38:34.

including the screening process

:38:35.:38:49.

for its leadership candidates conducted

:38:50.:38:51.

by an external vetting company. But like the old boss,

:38:52.:38:53.

he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now

:38:54.:38:55.

is a process where people can I'm talking about the process

:38:56.:38:59.

we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party,

:39:00.:39:03.

its history, and protect its future. We have always been

:39:04.:39:06.

about being for something, we are not against something,

:39:07.:39:08.

and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election

:39:09.:39:10.

so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one

:39:11.:39:12.

particular candidate. But it has got senior

:39:13.:39:14.

party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me

:39:15.:39:16.

the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away

:39:17.:39:18.

if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source

:39:19.:39:21.

said there would be mass The deadline for leadership

:39:22.:39:24.

nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have

:39:25.:39:27.

said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field,

:39:28.:39:30.

the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be

:39:31.:39:33.

the most rancorous contest the party had ever had,

:39:34.:39:36.

amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most

:39:37.:39:38.

successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become

:39:39.:39:41.

more professional on their current

:39:42.:39:43.

trajectory, then they will on their current

:39:44.:39:52.

trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers

:39:53.:39:55.

and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it

:39:56.:39:59.

so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically,

:40:00.:40:02.

get your act together, Whatever the direction

:40:03.:40:04.

the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think

:40:05.:40:14.

the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers

:40:15.:40:25.

in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:40:26.:40:35.

we'll be talking about what's next Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:40:36.:40:39.

in Northern Ireland. The First Ministers of Wales

:40:40.:40:51.

and Scotland meet the EU negotiator Michel Barnier -

:40:52.:40:54.

but who speaks for this I'll be asking the Sinn Fein MEP,

:40:55.:40:56.

Martina Anderson, if the absence of Stormont has reduced our Brexit

:40:57.:41:00.

influence. And after what's been

:41:01.:41:05.

described as the most successful Twelfth for years,

:41:06.:41:07.

has parading finally been That's what I'll be asking

:41:08.:41:09.

Professor Peter Shirlow It's been called the "most

:41:10.:41:13.

peaceful" Twelfth of July Thousands of Orangemen

:41:14.:41:23.

took part in 18 parades across Northern Ireland on the main

:41:24.:41:29.

day in the marching calendar. The Grand Master of Ireland said it

:41:30.:41:31.

was the "biggest in a generation". There was no trouble at any

:41:32.:41:35.

of the traditional flash points and police praised Orangemen

:41:36.:41:37.

and those watching the parades. However, it was a different story

:41:38.:41:45.

at several eleventh night bonfires with the Fire and Rescue Service

:41:46.:41:48.

describing it Firefighters prevented a blaze

:41:49.:41:50.

spreading to an apartment block in South Belfast,

:41:51.:41:54.

though the heat cracked The police are also investigating

:41:55.:41:56.

reports of "distasteful material" And Pete Shirlow and Patricia

:41:57.:42:01.

MacBride are with me now. Welcome to you both. To the last is

:42:02.:42:10.

on the politics of the series. It's been judged to have

:42:11.:42:15.

been a successful and From all points of view that has to

:42:16.:42:25.

be good. This is a bigger issue. Why was this the case? Why did it not

:42:26.:42:34.

has become in the Liu what it has becoming recent years? Because I

:42:35.:42:38.

know some of the people who work behind the scenes to resolve, some

:42:39.:42:43.

people who would be involved in the holy cross dispute which was also

:42:44.:42:46.

resolve which tells us of a bigger problem about some of the issues

:42:47.:42:50.

with the conflict in Northern Ireland. When we have the type of

:42:51.:42:54.

positivity, this type of engagement we know very little about it, and

:42:55.:42:57.

doesn't scream from the headlines, it's not the first item, the first

:42:58.:43:06.

item is something else, you are honourable to do this for the

:43:07.:43:15.

headline of your programme. The services are constantly overburdened

:43:16.:43:19.

by people putting a racist blacks or writing offensive things on the

:43:20.:43:24.

wall, you're constantly looking at crises but the other side, there is

:43:25.:43:32.

plenty of tasteful negotiation. Do you get a sense from people you talk

:43:33.:43:38.

to that the parading has a large extent been solved? Peter is right

:43:39.:43:43.

in the sense that there have been many years of quiet diplomacy which

:43:44.:43:46.

has brought us to this stage. Certainly Derry City set the model

:43:47.:43:51.

in that, in negotiations that took part with the parades, with the

:43:52.:43:55.

apprentice boys, and it is only to be welcomed that we have a series of

:43:56.:44:00.

parades on the 12th of July this year weather has known major

:44:01.:44:08.

confrontation. -- weather has been no confrontations. How do we deal

:44:09.:44:14.

with the bonfires on the 11th which are causing a public danger? It is a

:44:15.:44:19.

matter of public safety, and anyone who thinks that they are attacking

:44:20.:44:26.

cultural expression in exciting concerns about bonfires, that is

:44:27.:44:30.

wrong, the bonfires in and of themselves are the problem, in terms

:44:31.:44:35.

of the issues that they pose. A lot of people would agree with that,

:44:36.:44:39.

Pete, not to say that new flash point as far as parading are

:44:40.:44:44.

concerned might not emerging feature but the bonfire issue is the issue

:44:45.:44:49.

of the moment. It is a divisive issue part of a broader problem in

:44:50.:44:53.

the society, if you look at the social media around the bonfires in

:44:54.:44:59.

the week and you see a tit-for-tat argument between Unionism and

:45:00.:45:05.

republicanism. Some people posts horrible Chris Langridge around

:45:06.:45:09.

Glasgow Celtic footballers, and other people respond with names of

:45:10.:45:17.

people describing black people as inferior and being involved with the

:45:18.:45:20.

slave trade, all involving homophobia can be Unionism, Castro,

:45:21.:45:32.

homophobia, there is a issue in our society which we can't resolve,

:45:33.:45:35.

which is expecting tit-for-tat. A lot of people from this part

:45:36.:45:37.

of the world might have been on holidays this week,

:45:38.:45:41.

but in London and Brussels it was business as usual -

:45:42.:45:43.

and top of the agenda, Theresa May unveiled

:45:44.:45:46.

the Brexit Repeal Bill, the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers held

:45:47.:45:53.

meetings with Michel Barnier, while a European committee heard

:45:54.:45:55.

that Ireland should get more MEPs to represent Irish passport holders

:45:56.:45:58.

on this side of the border. Here's Guy Verhofstadt

:45:59.:46:00.

with his proposal. There will be in the future 500

:46:01.:46:09.

600,000 people, Northern Irish people with an Irish passport. These

:46:10.:46:15.

people are still EU citizens, these people normally should still have

:46:16.:46:20.

the possibility in my opinion to participate in our European actions.

:46:21.:46:27.

Even when they are not living in the European Union but living in

:46:28.:46:30.

Northern Ireland but with an Irish passport. And with an EU

:46:31.:46:35.

citizenship. So any allegation of the seats, that problem should be

:46:36.:46:39.

tackled will stop -- in the allocation.

:46:40.:46:41.

Joining me now from our Foyle studio is the Sinn Fein

:46:42.:46:45.

We did ask the two main unionist parties to take

:46:46.:46:49.

part in the programme, but we were told no-one

:46:50.:46:51.

Martina Anderson - Do you like the sound of extra MEPs

:46:52.:46:55.

to represent Northern Ireland citizens who are Irish passport

:46:56.:46:57.

I wasn't surprised that Guy Verhofstadt said that, because

:46:58.:47:12.

following a meeting I had with him on Tuesday and building on the case

:47:13.:47:18.

of special designated status for the north, I presented him with what was

:47:19.:47:22.

called an essential principle paper, a paper about designated special

:47:23.:47:25.

status and how all of the elements need to be achieved. He was very

:47:26.:47:30.

aware and taken by the fact that given that the Parliament has

:47:31.:47:39.

already seen a preservation of the Good Friday Agreement in all of its

:47:40.:47:42.

parts, with 1500 MEPs, all of its parts mean that those elements of

:47:43.:47:49.

the agreement that has afforded us to be Irish passport holders for

:47:50.:47:52.

example opens up the passport into EU citizenship and EU citizens

:47:53.:47:57.

rights, and what we had in Article ten it is quite clearly stating that

:47:58.:48:03.

direct representation is required for those people who have in our

:48:04.:48:08.

case whether you hold an Irish passport or not that the 1.8 million

:48:09.:48:13.

people here, that is one the access to the Good Friday Agreement in

:48:14.:48:19.

shrines for all of us, and Guy Verhofstadt got that will stop in

:48:20.:48:26.

practical terms, remember of course, there was a rejection of the special

:48:27.:48:33.

status, it seems your fellow MEPs don't like the idea that. Practical

:48:34.:48:39.

terms, how would MEPs elected by people in Northern Ireland but

:48:40.:48:42.

representing the Republic of Ireland actually work, do you think? Let me

:48:43.:48:46.

explain to you to programme and was took place in the Parliament last

:48:47.:48:52.

week was really it was a battle, eight resolutions, all resolutions

:48:53.:48:55.

rejected, each of the groups voted for their own resolution, and no one

:48:56.:49:01.

else's. It wasn't a resolution to do with designated status or a

:49:02.:49:07.

resolution to deal with Brexit, the Parliament has a clear position on

:49:08.:49:12.

Brexit, and 516 MEPs voted to preserve all of the parts of the

:49:13.:49:15.

Good Friday Agreement. I don't want to go back over that. In practical

:49:16.:49:22.

terms, how would Guy Verhofstadt's ideal work? Could it work? As I have

:49:23.:49:28.

said before there are 25 overseas countries and territories that have

:49:29.:49:31.

a relationship with the EU that have a special relationships are what we

:49:32.:49:38.

are asking for is not new. North Cyprus, Turkey end of it was the Liu

:49:39.:49:45.

is not in the EU, but Cypriots can vote in European elections. There

:49:46.:49:50.

are nearly 100,000 Cypriots Turks oared Turkish Cypriots, however you

:49:51.:49:54.

want to refer to them as, but they can vote in the European elections

:49:55.:50:03.

even though the north end of Cyprus is under Turkey occupation. Said

:50:04.:50:08.

that is the sort of precedent you would quote you think it is

:50:09.:50:12.

eminently doable? It is deliverable without doubt. The point is that

:50:13.:50:19.

having an Irish passport means that you have acquired rights and

:50:20.:50:23.

acquired rights that are absolute rights, and an absolute right under

:50:24.:50:27.

Article ten is to participate in democratic representation within the

:50:28.:50:35.

union. It means that you will be treated by EU institutions equally,

:50:36.:50:38.

so there are a number of acquired rights that people have by virtue of

:50:39.:50:44.

the fact of the Good Friday Agreement hence the reason they need

:50:45.:50:50.

to be protected in all of its parts. I want to ask you about the Brexit

:50:51.:50:55.

repeal Bill, as Theresa May unveiled it would need consent from devolved

:50:56.:51:00.

assemblies. Where does that leave us here? At the moment we don't have an

:51:01.:51:06.

assembly, and we don't have a voice at the table. We had yesterday from

:51:07.:51:13.

Michelle O'Neill, she was very clear that we are obviously up for having

:51:14.:51:20.

an assembly established on an assembly predicated on good

:51:21.:51:23.

governance, one predicated on equality and rights. We have heard

:51:24.:51:31.

this before! Over the past six months, Northern Ireland has

:51:32.:51:33.

singularly failed in its parties to get anything up and running again.

:51:34.:51:38.

Part of the responsibility for the rest was Sinn Fein, because Martin

:51:39.:51:41.

McGuinness Portadown in January. We know about that, we know that Sinn

:51:42.:51:45.

Fein said that you think that you wanted to get running again as

:51:46.:51:49.

possible. It is easy to say that but it has been difficult to deliver

:51:50.:51:53.

that. Where does that leave us? Is has not of course been easy to

:51:54.:51:56.

deliver but that does not fall upon Sinn Fein. We heard from Michelle

:51:57.:52:00.

O'Neill yesterday that jazz been in contact with all of the leaders of

:52:01.:52:03.

all of the parties do try to make that happen. We do know that the

:52:04.:52:08.

obstacles that we have a leave had been put in the way have been

:52:09.:52:11.

brought about by the DUP and by the British Government. You know very

:52:12.:52:17.

well of course that the DUP and Ulster Unionists and the British

:52:18.:52:19.

Government see it very differently and the Unionist parties say it as

:52:20.:52:23.

the reason of the bread line that Sinn Fein has -- red line that Sinn

:52:24.:52:30.

Fein has refused to budge on. I don't want to rehearse that. Martin

:52:31.:52:38.

McGuinness was right on his expression, exposing himself in a

:52:39.:52:41.

way that every else has ever done before. He brought the assembly down

:52:42.:52:45.

based upon all of the allegations that we were facing and because of

:52:46.:52:51.

how the Unionists in government work treating some sections of the

:52:52.:52:55.

people. We have researched the Liu rehearsed visage at a lot. We are up

:52:56.:53:02.

for an assembly. So you are in full agreement with Michelle O'Neill

:53:03.:53:08.

yesterday? Without is Emily due except we are voiceless? No, because

:53:09.:53:15.

I think we can see that for instance with the largest delegation in the

:53:16.:53:21.

European Parliament, Sinn Fein has a severe believe every significant

:53:22.:53:25.

influence. I will be meeting with Michel Barnier in September and we

:53:26.:53:28.

will be working and meeting with all of the key players in the European

:53:29.:53:33.

Parliament. We are looking to the negotiations to start tomorrow,

:53:34.:53:36.

there are three priorities for the Parliament, one being BAC we have

:53:37.:53:39.

just been talking about, acquired rights, citizens rights of which we

:53:40.:53:45.

have got to make sure that they are protected for us here in the north.

:53:46.:53:50.

The second is the divorce settlement, the prices are going to

:53:51.:53:55.

be hacked to be paid by Britain to leave the EU and then the third is

:53:56.:53:58.

Ireland, so we have been talking to Brussels and to the Irish government

:53:59.:54:02.

because that scenario where negotiations are taking place. We

:54:03.:54:08.

also know the damage of the Great Repeal Bill, and it is proper that

:54:09.:54:15.

the legislation be sought, it certainly went begetting legislative

:54:16.:54:21.

consent by the majority of the people in the assembly, that by the

:54:22.:54:26.

majority of the parties in assembly. You are in Brussels and Strasbourg a

:54:27.:54:28.

lot and you are talking to people with the ear to the ground. Is it

:54:29.:54:32.

your view that the Irish border continues to be one of the issues

:54:33.:54:38.

right at the top of the agenda as far as Europe is concerned?

:54:39.:54:42.

Absolutely. It is something that we heard from them last week, from

:54:43.:54:48.

Michel Barnier, who actually put to bed those that have been told,

:54:49.:54:54.

farmers, SMEs, universities or others, that there is such a thing

:54:55.:54:59.

as frictionless trade. He actually said there is no such thing as

:55:00.:55:03.

frictionless trade so the case that Sinn Fein has made for designated

:55:04.:55:06.

special status for the north to remain within the EU has been

:55:07.:55:12.

presented, we have been told how it could be secured, we have presented

:55:13.:55:16.

a central principles, we are getting legal advice to demonstrate how that

:55:17.:55:21.

can be achieved. The UK Government doesn't want that whether you like

:55:22.:55:26.

it or not, and they are the body negotiating with the European Union.

:55:27.:55:29.

It isn't Sinn Fein, it's not down to Martina Anderson to make this called

:55:30.:55:32.

it is down Theresa May and David Davis. They see a very differently

:55:33.:55:38.

from you. It is down to myself, the Sinn Fein delegation and are parties

:55:39.:55:44.

to make deliveries for the people, particularly the 52% of people,

:55:45.:55:50.

across tradition, across our society, who have been arrogantly

:55:51.:56:02.

described as Remoaners. We rendered all those people who voted to

:56:03.:56:06.

remain, and we leave that the people who didn't vote to remain are now

:56:07.:56:10.

seeing the devastation and damaged that can be caused by a Brexit to

:56:11.:56:14.

the north and a lot of people are now reflecting how they feel.

:56:15.:56:18.

Interesting to hear your thoughts, Martina Anderson. Thanks very much

:56:19.:56:20.

for joining us from Derry this morning.

:56:21.:56:23.

Let's get reaction to that from Patricia and Pete.

:56:24.:56:26.

It is interesting to hear her perspective on that are clearly not

:56:27.:56:32.

giving up on the status designation for Northern Ireland. You heard her

:56:33.:56:37.

say right at the end to remain within the EU, Northern Ireland,

:56:38.:56:41.

even though nobody from the UK perspective is talking about that.

:56:42.:56:46.

If you saw the newspapers this morning, a former cabinet secretary

:56:47.:56:50.

is talking about how the British Government's response to Brexit is

:56:51.:56:54.

disorganised, and there was no agreement internally. They don't

:56:55.:56:57.

have the resources to drive this programme forward. The British

:56:58.:57:01.

Government not wanting special designated status for the north is

:57:02.:57:04.

probably more a case of the British Government not really having thought

:57:05.:57:06.

that far ahead because they don't appear to be well planned. It is

:57:07.:57:11.

very far down their list of priorities, isn't it? The very huge

:57:12.:57:15.

issues they had to grapple with as far as Europe is concerned, Northern

:57:16.:57:18.

Ireland is not probably in the top ten issues for Theresa May. There is

:57:19.:57:23.

so much disagreement with the Conservative Party internally so

:57:24.:57:25.

they don't even know what the top ten issues are. We had to play some

:57:26.:57:30.

hope in terms of people in the north around two issues. First of all what

:57:31.:57:37.

was said about the vote within the Parliament to support the Good

:57:38.:57:41.

Friday Agreement and that secondly the very clear direction of the

:57:42.:57:44.

travel of the Irish government, ensuring there is no negative impact

:57:45.:57:48.

on Ireland and in order to do that, that is the entire island of

:57:49.:57:54.

Ireland. People I think are jumping ahead of themselves here. First of

:57:55.:57:59.

all you see British politics being galvanised by the referendum. There

:58:00.:58:04.

is greater commitment to reducing the impact of this decision was one

:58:05.:58:09.

thing we will see and the argument Lib Dems are taking, this is going

:58:10.:58:13.

to be softer than we think. It is nobody's interest in being outside

:58:14.:58:21.

the trading unions, or that Tizer partnerships, for financial reasons

:58:22.:58:25.

with Europe. If you look at the impact for universities and stuff,

:58:26.:58:33.

Northern Ireland is in the top ten list of issues here, there is no

:58:34.:58:40.

hard border being desired. The relationship between two states,

:58:41.:58:44.

Ireland and Britain is not at the best, despite this friction over

:58:45.:58:47.

Brexit, so we need to be careful here not to rattle issues that

:58:48.:58:52.

haven't come to the fore yet. Before decisions are made. Let's park that

:58:53.:58:55.

one. With the Stormont discussions now

:58:56.:58:58.

parked for several weeks, the Prime Minister has been urged

:58:59.:59:00.

by two Northern Ireland Office veterans to get more

:59:01.:59:03.

personally involved. They made the comments

:59:04.:59:04.

in the House of Lords this week. Every single agreement in northern

:59:05.:59:13.

Ireland has been successful because of the direct involvement of the

:59:14.:59:15.

Prime Minister and the Taoiseach. Isn't it about time the Prime

:59:16.:59:21.

Minister goes to Belfast and talk directly with the parties and the

:59:22.:59:24.

Irish government, and until that happens I feel we will make little

:59:25.:59:30.

progress. The noble Lord raised this point in a statement ten days ago or

:59:31.:59:35.

so and indeed the noble Lord he raised it as well but can I reassure

:59:36.:59:40.

him that the Prime Minister is taking a close interest close

:59:41.:59:43.

involvement in this. Should she see fit she will indeed travel to

:59:44.:59:46.

Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister clearly has a close interest, nobody

:59:47.:59:51.

would suggest that she hasn't, but there is no substitute for a visit

:59:52.:59:55.

full stop to go to Northern Ireland to talk on the spot in Hillsborough

:59:56.:00:00.

with the various parties involved, and when she's talking to them

:00:01.:00:06.

bearing in mind the most Avril suggestion of my friend Lord Trimble

:00:07.:00:12.

who has made Tyneside that -- many times has said that the delay in

:00:13.:00:21.

sets in at the assembly that the assembly cannot meet.

:00:22.:00:22.

Lord Cormack and before that Lord Murphy, the former

:00:23.:00:25.

Northern Ireland Secretary, speaking in the Lords on Thursday.

:00:26.:00:28.

Is that what it will take? This is around the engagement of the British

:00:29.:00:36.

Government in the north, a great test of the DUP confidence and

:00:37.:00:41.

supply agreement, the DUP are serious about getting power-sharing

:00:42.:00:45.

running at all and then they need to insist the bar minister comes here.

:00:46.:00:49.

Look at the challenges that Theresa May has in her injury at the moment.

:00:50.:00:52.

Dealing with the whole Brexit issue is a nightmare, holding onto her own

:00:53.:00:56.

job seemed like a real challenge of you read today by the papers. What

:00:57.:01:00.

chance her coming to Northern Ireland, taking an interest that she

:01:01.:01:09.

Frankie hasn't shown before? The leaders are essentially exhausted,

:01:10.:01:12.

like in the 70s, government is falling apart. Theresa May coming

:01:13.:01:15.

here when shift the dynamic was a bit is clear where the issues are,

:01:16.:01:19.

this isn't like the peace process with Tony Blair, we know where the

:01:20.:01:24.

issues are, they can be resolved by imaginative thinking and the removal

:01:25.:01:28.

of hostile behaviour and deadlines, between each other. It's a fairly

:01:29.:01:34.

simple problem. Simple perhaps but intractable to.

:01:35.:01:36.

Let's pause there for a moment and take a look back

:01:37.:01:38.

at the political week gone past, with Mark Devenport.

:01:39.:01:44.

The annual 12th of July celebrations passed off without major incident.

:01:45.:01:51.

There is a huge change of atmosphere. There is a communication

:01:52.:01:59.

across the lines. We are seeing that the downward trajectory in terms of

:02:00.:02:03.

trouble and disorder has continued downwards today. There were problems

:02:04.:02:08.

on the 11th night, particularly in south Belfast. Cruise saw one

:02:09.:02:19.

appliance come under attack, very disappointing. The majority of these

:02:20.:02:26.

have passed peacefully, I have attended one myself. James

:02:27.:02:31.

Brokenshire announced he is ready to make financial decisions here.

:02:32.:02:37.

Scotland and Wales raised concerns with Michel Barnier. It is crucial

:02:38.:02:43.

that Brexit works for Wales, not just the city or some parts of the

:02:44.:02:44.

UK. Mark Devenport there -

:02:45.:02:48.

and let's have a final word Pizza, an awful lot of what happens

:02:49.:02:58.

next depends on what James Brokenshire does next. How would you

:02:59.:03:06.

rate his performance so far? I feel sympathetic for the Secretary of

:03:07.:03:11.

State, the idea of devolution was out of their hands. RHI, Irish actor

:03:12.:03:20.

and should -- Irish language, etc, the victim is the state. Broken shy

:03:21.:03:29.

had a joints when the talks collapsed -- broken shy had a choice

:03:30.:03:35.

between legislating and extending the deadline, and he did none of

:03:36.:03:38.

those things was that this week he will allocate funding. Let's see

:03:39.:03:39.

where it goes. We're back in mid-September,

:03:40.:03:43.

see you then. This is the last Sunday Politics

:03:44.:03:48.

before Parliament breaks up for the summer recess, and most MPs could

:03:49.:03:51.

definitely do with some time away from the political hothouse at

:03:52.:03:54.

Westminster. But when they come back

:03:55.:03:56.

in September, both the Conservatives and Labour face some big questions

:03:57.:03:58.

over how to win an overall majority We'll talk about that in a moment,

:03:59.:04:02.

but first let's have a look at what's been happening to Theresa May

:04:03.:04:07.

and Jeremy Corbyn since polling day And what we are saying is the

:04:08.:04:24.

Conservatives are the largest party. Note they don't have an overall

:04:25.:04:26.

majority at this stage. She who dares doesn't always win.

:04:27.:04:43.

Now let's get to work. The party that has lost in this election is

:04:44.:04:47.

the Conservative Party. The arguments they put forward in this

:04:48.:04:52.

election have lost. I think we need a change. That's not quite true,

:04:53.:05:00.

Labour is a party that lost. The Government failed and her coming

:05:01.:05:07.

over here to try to speak to... Who? Who do you want to speak to you had

:05:08.:05:12.

your chance. Now everyone will go angry and crazy.

:05:13.:05:22.

I think the public will want us to get the broadest possible consensus

:05:23.:05:49.

in looking at those issues. If the Prime Minister would like it, I am

:05:50.:05:53.

happy to furnish her with a copy of our election manifesto.

:05:54.:06:00.

You are now playing for Arsenal! The comments we were getting back that

:06:01.:06:03.

were passed on to me were that we were going to get a better results

:06:04.:06:09.

than we did. Devastated enough to shed a tear? Yes, a little tear at

:06:10.:06:21.

that moment, yes. Let's start with Mrs May. Another

:06:22.:06:27.

day, another leadership rumour, challenge. She is tired, she wants

:06:28.:06:33.

to fight on, she doesn't. Is this corrosive to her leadership? Hugely

:06:34.:06:40.

corrosive. My estimation of what's really going on in the party, and

:06:41.:06:46.

Tory MPs in Westminster, is the vast majority and by that I mean probably

:06:47.:06:51.

around 300 don't want a contest. They want her to stay and finish

:06:52.:06:57.

Brexit, see it through, because of the incredible Pandora's box that

:06:58.:07:02.

would open. Who's putting these incredible column inches in the

:07:03.:07:10.

papers? They are giant egos, they have been at this for several years

:07:11.:07:15.

if not decades and they are keen to manoeuvre themselves into the

:07:16.:07:22.

position to be the leader. In their own interests? Because most Tories I

:07:23.:07:26.

speak to think the risk of another leadership election is horrendous

:07:27.:07:30.

for them because they fear it could lead to a general election and they

:07:31.:07:34.

will lose. The ones you are talking about, they put their own

:07:35.:07:38.

self-interest above the interest of their party. Without a doubt. They

:07:39.:07:45.

are funny bunch, we know them very well, but they are simply incapable

:07:46.:07:48.

of putting their own interests underneath those of the country. The

:07:49.:07:52.

problem for Mrs May is this won't stop. They are going to carry on

:07:53.:07:57.

doing this I think unless she says something about her own leadership

:07:58.:08:01.

and conference is the time to do it. She needs to spell out a timetable

:08:02.:08:06.

for herself, when she will stay and go. She almost did that, didn't she,

:08:07.:08:15.

in her interview with you. She came very close. I agree with almost

:08:16.:08:19.

everything Thomas said, but those on the backbenches who don't want a

:08:20.:08:24.

leadership contest, it's not purely for the good of the country, there

:08:25.:08:30.

is self-interest there too and that is because they are eyeing up the

:08:31.:08:35.

top job and they need a few years to build up a following. My view is

:08:36.:08:40.

people like Boris Johnson 's and Amber Rudd for their own reasons

:08:41.:08:44.

think they stand a better chance once Brexit is done. At the moment

:08:45.:08:52.

Mr Johnson too toxic for the Remainers, Amber Rudd too toxic for

:08:53.:09:02.

the Leavers. Last time Mrs May went walking in the hills, in Wales, she

:09:03.:09:07.

came back and called an election. She's about to go walking in the

:09:08.:09:11.

Swiss mountains I understand in the weeks ahead for a break. Is there

:09:12.:09:16.

any chance she comes back and says I'm not going on with this? No

:09:17.:09:21.

because although I think being a human being she will be deeply

:09:22.:09:24.

traumatised by what's happened, and it will probably hit her more

:09:25.:09:28.

intensely when she moves away for a few days from the cocoon drama of

:09:29.:09:33.

the whole situation, you just have to keep going and she will be

:09:34.:09:37.

walking and thinking what have I done? But she is clearly trying to

:09:38.:09:42.

hold on and she's built up a new Number Ten. Almost an entire new

:09:43.:09:47.

personnel in there. She's brought Damian Green in as a deputy so

:09:48.:09:51.

there's no sign she plans to go in the short-term but leadership is

:09:52.:09:58.

partly about a spell on us and her ministers. The fact that her

:09:59.:10:01.

ministers, even in her interview when she was being robust in two

:10:02.:10:05.

years, they know that she won't fight part of the next election

:10:06.:10:09.

which means part of the spell has gone. When Tony Blair gave a date

:10:10.:10:15.

for his departure, you could feel the power losing away from him. The

:10:16.:10:21.

fact that assumption is there means this feverish speculation will carry

:10:22.:10:27.

on until she goes. Let me come on to Mr Corbyn who would seem to be in a

:10:28.:10:31.

much better position after the election. What does he now do

:10:32.:10:36.

though? Because if you cannot provoke an election quite quickly,

:10:37.:10:40.

you never know how long your day in the sun will be. But he does have a

:10:41.:10:46.

mission or he and the people around him, they want to take control of

:10:47.:10:50.

those parts of the Labour Party they don't already take control, and they

:10:51.:10:56.

will probably do it. Absolutely, so Jeremy Corbyn has established he's a

:10:57.:10:59.

very good campaigner. Everybody now agrees on that. Look at the clip, he

:11:00.:11:06.

now dresses in a white shirt and a dark suit, and he actually looks I

:11:07.:11:10.

won't say Prime Minister Arial but like he could possibly lead the

:11:11.:11:18.

whole country. -- prime ministerial. But the whole thing is built on

:11:19.:11:22.

protests, there isn't a fully established policy set up where he

:11:23.:11:27.

is ready to take over the Government if this election comes. The

:11:28.:11:31.

challenge for him is to turn the huge generation of support he's got

:11:32.:11:36.

over protest into the ability to govern. You heard from Rebecca

:11:37.:11:41.

Long-Bailey on Brexit alone, the party now admitting their policy is

:11:42.:11:46.

cake and eat it, that is not electorally satisfying. Final word

:11:47.:11:51.

from Isabel. The fact is Mr Corbyn has been a transformative figure for

:11:52.:11:56.

the Labour Party. If and when he goes, it's not going back to normal.

:11:57.:12:02.

It is transformative for the Labour Party and the country. I disagree

:12:03.:12:08.

with Tom, they put forward a more detailed programme than the

:12:09.:12:12.

Conservatives at the election and be costed it to some extent. I think to

:12:13.:12:17.

be facing two weighs on Brexit is the only place for a Leader of the

:12:18.:12:21.

Opposition to beat and he has been smart on that. Tony Blair when he

:12:22.:12:27.

was a leader faced to microwaves on single currency, outside of

:12:28.:12:28.

Parliament he single currency, outside of

:12:29.:12:35.

Parliament he seemed be more robust, but he's played it very smart. All I

:12:36.:12:42.

would say is for Brexiteers we want more Tony Blair saying it won't

:12:43.:12:47.

happen. You think he's such a toxic figure that whatever side he

:12:48.:12:53.

supports damages that side? Absolutely, yes. As a leader of an

:12:54.:13:00.

opposition party you cannot advance things. All right, we will have to

:13:01.:13:04.

leave it there. Enjoy your summer. That's all for today, and that's

:13:05.:13:07.

all from us until September. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:08.:13:10.

it's the Sunday Politics - unless it's parliament's summer

:13:11.:13:12.

recess. But for me it is thank you and

:13:13.:13:19.

goodbye. When I think of the world

:13:20.:13:57.

we inhabit, everyone will think,

:13:58.:14:00.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by international trade secretary Liam Fox and shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey for a look at Ukip's future direction. Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.