09/07/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


09/07/2017

A look at the political developments of the week with Mark Carruthers.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:40.:00:44.

Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal

:00:45.:00:46.

Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.

:00:47.:00:50.

But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing

:00:51.:00:53.

for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?

:00:54.:00:55.

Having defied expectation in last month's general election,

:00:56.:01:00.

are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party

:01:01.:01:02.

The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has

:01:03.:01:10.

devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political

:01:11.:01:12.

storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover

:01:13.:01:14.

And coming up here: Deadlock at Stormont.

:01:15.:01:19.

What will it take to get the institutions back?

:01:20.:01:21.

We'll hear from the former Secretary of State, Peter Hain.

:01:22.:01:24.

Plus - is all the political uncertainty

:01:25.:01:26.

impacting on economic growth? on breaking away from the capital.

:01:27.:01:44.

If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or

:01:45.:01:51.

the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see

:01:52.:01:55.

them... And with me - as always -

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for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships

:01:56.:01:59.

after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel -

:02:00.:02:00.

Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting

:02:01.:02:02.

throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade

:02:03.:02:08.

deal with UK could be Theresa May says that

:02:09.:02:11.

other world leaders, including those of China,

:02:12.:02:14.

India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at

:02:15.:02:17.

the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at

:02:18.:02:21.

the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional

:02:22.:02:25.

deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's

:02:26.:02:28.

single market and Customs Union for several years after exit,

:02:29.:02:31.

put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be

:02:32.:02:34.

the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show

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earlier. I'm beginning to think that

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Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous,

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the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous,

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I can see a scenario We're joined now from

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Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister

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and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or

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the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see

:03:13.:03:14.

them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may

:03:15.:03:17.

now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable

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always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking

:03:23.:03:27.

buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an

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enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger

:03:33.:03:37.

Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main

:03:38.:03:42.

parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the

:03:43.:03:47.

customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party

:03:48.:03:51.

went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the

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European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we

:03:56.:04:00.

are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London

:04:01.:04:04.

convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a

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sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental

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gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading

:04:14.:04:19.

for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a

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mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't

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just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the

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election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we

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got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had

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an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know

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that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes

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and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary

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system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the

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Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that

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is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a

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Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear

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of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If

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you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a

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single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party

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unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the

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customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver

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this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver

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a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the

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customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling

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damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political,

:05:57.:06:00.

you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that

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damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the

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detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which

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means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for

:06:15.:06:20.

people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has

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the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a

:06:26.:06:30.

transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to

:06:31.:06:35.

mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam

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who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude,

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because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete

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conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us

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have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of

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cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't

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even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda

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yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are

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starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and

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zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is

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very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge

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economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that

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will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it

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and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we

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can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission

:07:52.:07:55.

website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside

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European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from

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61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of

:08:07.:08:12.

these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not?

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Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany

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runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with

:08:26.:08:28.

the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger

:08:29.:08:34.

surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't.

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They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw

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Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India,

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China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us,

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we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital

:09:01.:09:03.

for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The

:09:04.:09:07.

business in this country says we should stay in the single market and

:09:08.:09:12.

the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count

:09:13.:09:22.

for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth

:09:23.:09:26.

creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which

:09:27.:09:31.

represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking

:09:32.:09:36.

to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate

:09:37.:09:39.

the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation

:09:40.:09:43.

period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where

:09:44.:09:49.

we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous

:09:50.:09:54.

amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and

:09:55.:09:57.

the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out.

:09:58.:10:03.

What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade

:10:04.:10:07.

which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that,

:10:08.:10:12.

we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That

:10:13.:10:16.

needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see

:10:17.:10:21.

how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here.

:10:22.:10:24.

What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which

:10:25.:10:30.

it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full

:10:31.:10:35.

members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very

:10:36.:10:39.

quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle

:10:40.:10:46.

is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it.

:10:47.:10:52.

This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next

:10:53.:10:57.

negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were

:10:58.:11:01.

touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no

:11:02.:11:05.

longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House

:11:06.:11:09.

of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will

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begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of

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the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right

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trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major

:11:22.:11:27.

play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom

:11:28.:11:30.

union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These

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are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that

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will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring

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next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she

:11:44.:11:46.

didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a

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weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make

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Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her

:11:55.:11:59.

idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am

:12:00.:12:06.

worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been

:12:07.:12:11.

trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June

:12:12.:12:20.

2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We

:12:21.:12:25.

have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft

:12:26.:12:29.

Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out

:12:30.:12:33.

when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the

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single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All

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within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically,

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then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will

:12:49.:12:52.

have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there

:12:53.:12:58.

many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike

:12:59.:13:01.

the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will

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accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are

:13:06.:13:11.

in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the

:13:12.:13:15.

establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey

:13:16.:13:20.

the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday

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papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going

:13:28.:13:31.

to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last

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48-hour, but what do you make of the remain MPs on both sides of the

:13:38.:13:42.

House, plus peers, are going to try to derail this repeal act, that the

:13:43.:13:50.

Government needs to push EU law on to the UK statute book. I I think

:13:51.:13:55.

they will use it to at certain key points to attempt to defeat the

:13:56.:13:59.

Government, not over the whole thing, this summer reminds me so

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much of the summer of 92 who the Maastricht Treaty coming into a

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fragile John Major Government, and people then were plotting, in the

:14:10.:14:13.

opposite direction, Eurosceptics to try and stop that. He won with a

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huge percentage of the vote. Tiny majority, 23, bigger than she would

:14:19.:14:27.

have died for that. A shock victory. The The summer was full of talk and

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plotting, some which came to fruition in the sessions after and

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some will come into fruition from this autumn on ward where you will

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see alliances across the Commons manned the Lords, there will be

:14:40.:14:42.

moments of high Parliamentary drama, I think. Sounds like a long hot

:14:43.:14:45.

autumn. An a long hot autumn, and winter.

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Winter too? I thought it was all global warming. This will add to the

:15:00.:15:01.

temperature! Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not

:15:02.:15:03.

have won the election, but by confounding almost everyone's

:15:04.:15:05.

expectations he is unassailable as Labour leader for

:15:06.:15:07.

the foreseeable future. So what does that mean for his MPs,

:15:08.:15:09.

most of whom - just a year ago - Labour's new chairman and key

:15:10.:15:19.

cupping Ally said last week the party may be too broad church. He

:15:20.:15:25.

also seemed to endorse the idea of deselecting labour MPs critical of

:15:26.:15:29.

the leadership by saying if you get deselected there must be a reason.

:15:30.:15:33.

But he has since wrote back from his comments in another interview. Chris

:15:34.:15:37.

Williamson, the newly appointed labour frontbencher said some of his

:15:38.:15:40.

colleagues in the Parliamentary party think they have a God-given

:15:41.:15:45.

right to rule. He also said that if MPs don't support the leadership's

:15:46.:15:49.

programme, local constituency parties should find someone else who

:15:50.:15:55.

will. And in the seat of liveable waiver treats this week, left wing

:15:56.:15:59.

supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won several positions on the committee.

:16:00.:16:07.

One said she must get on board quite quickly now, and also publicly

:16:08.:16:10.

apologise for not supporting Mr Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs

:16:11.:16:20.

rushed to Luciano Berger's defends. Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs

:16:21.:16:26.

was published, and they said these usual suspects should join the

:16:27.:16:30.

Liberals. The list included prominent former frontbencher is

:16:31.:16:36.

like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and tidying -- Heidi Alexander.

:16:37.:16:41.

And this is what the Shadow Education Secretary

:16:42.:16:43.

and Jeremy Corbyn ally, Angela Rayner, had to say earlier.

:16:44.:16:45.

Anyone that talks of deselecting any of my colleagues,

:16:46.:16:47.

frankly they need to think about actually, who are

:16:48.:16:50.

Who are making the problems for our communities at the moment?

:16:51.:16:56.

Who have made those disastrous policies that are hurting the people

:16:57.:16:59.

It doesn't help them if we're fighting each other.

:17:00.:17:02.

We're joined now from Sheffield by former

:17:03.:17:04.

Labour Cabinet Minister, Caroline Flint.

:17:05.:17:11.

Welcome to the programme. Labour frontbencher Chris Williamson has

:17:12.:17:19.

said, where Labour MPs don't support the leadership's programme it's

:17:20.:17:23.

incumbent on local members to find someone else who will. What do you

:17:24.:17:29.

make of that? I think it's very sad that talk of deselection is the line

:17:30.:17:41.

people are taking. We had an election where 262 Labour MPs, very

:17:42.:17:47.

different ones, have all won a mandate from their electorate and

:17:48.:17:51.

our job is, as Angela Rayner said this morning, is to focus on a

:17:52.:17:55.

government that is in disarray and how we can learn from the general

:17:56.:17:58.

election to broaden our appeal but also develop our policy is ready in

:17:59.:18:01.

time for the next election whenever that is called so I think all talk

:18:02.:18:07.

of deselection is misplaced and doesn't help Labour. But do you feel

:18:08.:18:12.

a purge of what is often referred to as the moderates in your party is

:18:13.:18:18.

now inevitable? No, because we have been here before in the 1980s when

:18:19.:18:23.

talk of deselection was suggested, it didn't happen in the way people

:18:24.:18:28.

thought it would, and I do believe, hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have

:18:29.:18:35.

worked with him in the 2010, 2015 government and I have worked with

:18:36.:18:43.

Chris Williamson, Ian has already refined what he said, and what he's

:18:44.:18:47.

clearly was this deselection talk and the way to go ahead on it is not

:18:48.:18:53.

the right way forward. We to focus on looking outwards to understand

:18:54.:18:59.

that we have across the party hard-working Labour MPs with maybe

:19:00.:19:03.

different views across the Labour political spectrum, and I would have

:19:04.:19:11.

to say that Luciana is one of the most hard-working MPs in Parliament

:19:12.:19:17.

and homework on mental health is outstanding. That may be true, let's

:19:18.:19:23.

look at Luciana Berger's constituency. One of the committee

:19:24.:19:27.

members on her committee says she now has to get on board quite

:19:28.:19:32.

quickly. And even publicly apologise for past disloyalty. The direction

:19:33.:19:41.

of travel is clear, isn't it? That is one person on a committee in one

:19:42.:19:46.

constituency... Where there is a majority for that point of view now.

:19:47.:19:53.

I don't think there is, and the truth is... They took nine seat. Her

:19:54.:19:59.

constituency is all of the members in that constituency and what I

:20:00.:20:03.

would say, and I don't know this individual, look at the track record

:20:04.:20:11.

of Luciana and what she has done. Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been

:20:12.:20:16.

an MP under both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, voted against the

:20:17.:20:20.

Labour whip on numerous occasions, he has been very upfront and honest

:20:21.:20:24.

about this, do you know in those 20 years I never heard anybody say

:20:25.:20:29.

about Jeremy or anybody else who didn't vote with the Labour whip

:20:30.:20:34.

that they should face deselection or apologise. I think that represents

:20:35.:20:38.

the broad church of the Labour Party and we should look at what brings us

:20:39.:20:42.

together rather than differences on policy point of view and we should

:20:43.:20:47.

be looking outwards and dealing with that and working on it. You have

:20:48.:20:51.

said that three times but it has not happened and it may be that the

:20:52.:20:56.

people around Mr Corbyn, they think moderates like you, your day is

:20:57.:21:02.

over. You lost the 2015 election badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to

:21:03.:21:05.

stand as leader, you failed to stop him twice, you thought he would make

:21:06.:21:10.

a mess of the June election and he didn't. Can you blame his supporters

:21:11.:21:15.

for wanting a career out of people who took these positions? I think

:21:16.:21:19.

there are some people who supported and still support Jeremy who feel

:21:20.:21:22.

that way but I don't believe they represent the people who supported

:21:23.:21:28.

Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy thinks this is in the best interests

:21:29.:21:32.

of the party. Only a few weeks ago John McDonnell praised my work on

:21:33.:21:39.

tax transparency. Since my election I have bumped into Jeremy and we

:21:40.:21:43.

have had a chat about what happened in the election and Jeremy

:21:44.:21:50.

recognises that we were up against an arrogant Tory party and has said

:21:51.:21:56.

to me he does understand this and said to the broader Parliamentary

:21:57.:21:59.

Labour Party... If I could just finish... What has he said about

:22:00.:22:11.

deselection? For example he said to me that he recognised that we have

:22:12.:22:18.

won in numerous places in outstanding circumstances but he's

:22:19.:22:21.

also said to me that he recognises that we need to broaden our reach

:22:22.:22:24.

and understand why we were working-class voters. That says to

:22:25.:22:29.

me that that is a leader who is up for and open to looking at the

:22:30.:22:34.

reasons why we were successful and the reasons we weren't and he wasn't

:22:35.:22:38.

closing down conversation on that. I take him on his word on that. He has

:22:39.:22:44.

not said that publicly. What we need from a leader is to challenge our

:22:45.:22:49.

party about where to go next and he has said that, Diane Abbott has said

:22:50.:22:53.

at a conference I was at a few weeks ago that we need now to look at our

:22:54.:22:57.

manifesto and look more clearly issues around tax and spend policies

:22:58.:23:01.

because obviously clearly now we have more time to look at those

:23:02.:23:05.

issues and also we may be facing a very different election when the

:23:06.:23:09.

time comes. That's what I want from the leadership team, talk about how

:23:10.:23:12.

we improve our message and reach, and by doing that get away from what

:23:13.:23:20.

song, a minority I have to say, are saying about deselection.

:23:21.:23:26.

Corbynistas like Paul Mason think moderates like you were to blame for

:23:27.:23:32.

the defeat. He said moderates were always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is

:23:33.:23:41.

quite popular view in the Jeremy Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul

:23:42.:23:47.

Mason's view and he is fundamentally wrong. When we look at the results

:23:48.:23:53.

of the last election, we can see a continuing from 2015 where Labour is

:23:54.:23:56.

losing support among older voters and what we see is in this election

:23:57.:24:03.

in 2017 Labour has... I think we are at our highest point amongst the

:24:04.:24:08.

middle-class voters compared to where we were in 1979 but the Tories

:24:09.:24:13.

are highest among working-class voters since 1979 as well. Those

:24:14.:24:18.

working-class voters weren't voting for a more left alternative to

:24:19.:24:22.

Labour and sadly they were voting Tory and we have to address that

:24:23.:24:28.

because our party is this broad church and representing

:24:29.:24:29.

working-class people is at the heart of what the Labour Party is about

:24:30.:24:33.

and that's a discussion we need to have. That is the depth of

:24:34.:24:38.

discussion we need to get into. That would put's with a fighting chance

:24:39.:24:43.

of taking on a Tory party that is in disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you

:24:44.:24:47.

for joining us. This week it was announced

:24:48.:24:49.

that the Grenfell Tower inquiry would hold its first public hearings

:24:50.:24:52.

in September, as it prepares to begin to examine

:24:53.:24:54.

what caused the tragedy. But some have warned

:24:55.:24:56.

that the situation now needs to be de-politicised,

:24:57.:24:58.

or it will damage In a moment we'll hear from the MP

:24:59.:25:00.

for Kensington and Chelsea where the Grenfell Tower

:25:01.:25:04.

fire took place. But first Emma Vardy looks at how

:25:05.:25:06.

political arguments have played a significant part in the aftermath

:25:07.:25:08.

of this terrible event. When you come here and you actually

:25:09.:25:23.

see it, your immediate thoughts are about the people,

:25:24.:25:29.

not about the politics. What happened up there is just

:25:30.:25:32.

so difficult to comprehend. But in the days after this tragedy,

:25:33.:25:36.

there was such outrage at governments and authorities,

:25:37.:25:43.

it became a political storm that those

:25:44.:25:45.

in power struggled to respond to. We want justice, we want

:25:46.:25:47.

justice, we want justice... People vented their anger outside

:25:48.:25:52.

Kensington town Hall. A visit to the Grenfell site

:25:53.:26:00.

by Theresa May saw her forced At Prime Minister's Questions,

:26:01.:26:03.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower

:26:04.:26:11.

has exposed is a disastrous And speaking at Glastonbury,

:26:12.:26:17.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell Those families, those individuals,

:26:18.:26:21.

79 so far and there will be more, were murdered by political decisions

:26:22.:26:28.

that were taken over recent decades. I can't remember a major national

:26:29.:26:38.

tragedy that has been politicised I think using terms like murder

:26:39.:26:41.

is completely reckless The key thing is that we try

:26:42.:26:47.

to ascertain the facts this tragedy occurred to ensure

:26:48.:26:55.

it can never be repeated. And as soon as you introduce emotive

:26:56.:26:58.

phrases or emotive accusations or emotive allegations of that

:26:59.:27:01.

nature, then the discourse The whole debate around the tragedy

:27:02.:27:03.

becomes politicised and it makes it Some argue the political language

:27:04.:27:09.

that was used was wrong and helped to ramp up the vitriol

:27:10.:27:19.

in an unhelpful way, but for others, it was

:27:20.:27:23.

entirely justified. That's what an opposition party

:27:24.:27:28.

is for, it's to challenge the Government and to ask the right

:27:29.:27:30.

questions and I think people round here would say thank goodness,

:27:31.:27:37.

there's somebody in politics Pilgrim Tucker had helped

:27:38.:27:39.

Grenfell Tower residents campaign for building improvements

:27:40.:27:42.

in previous years, and returned I've been to meetings before

:27:43.:27:44.

the fire and I've been to meetings since the fire,

:27:45.:27:48.

attended by ordinary residents with no involvement in politics

:27:49.:27:51.

and they are saying very political things about land in London

:27:52.:27:56.

and property ownership in London, Had we campaigned harder,

:27:57.:27:58.

would we have prevented this? Fire safety campaigners say

:27:59.:28:03.

they were trying to draw attention to certain issues long before

:28:04.:28:08.

what happened at Grenfell Tower, and say it's no one political party

:28:09.:28:12.

but the whole system has failed. It's easy to say, "You've got

:28:13.:28:24.

an inquiry, let's wait for that." We already know two

:28:25.:28:27.

very clear things. Had the people there been

:28:28.:28:29.

protected by sprinklers, People don't die in homes

:28:30.:28:31.

protected by sprinklers. The second thing is the outrage

:28:32.:28:34.

that the building regulations had They should be done

:28:35.:28:36.

year in, year out. Generally people in house

:28:37.:28:40.

fires die in ones, twos or threes, which doesn't make

:28:41.:28:42.

a political statement. So the political parties

:28:43.:28:44.

haven't really needed They weren't prepared for 70 or more

:28:45.:28:46.

people to die at once The public inquiry, which will

:28:47.:28:51.

address some of those issues, has already faced calls

:28:52.:28:55.

for its newly appointed And that was a view

:28:56.:28:56.

echoed by the Labour MP You would call on him,

:28:57.:29:01.

would you, to stand down? I don't think there will be any

:29:02.:29:06.

credibility and some people are saying they won't cooperate

:29:07.:29:12.

with it so it's not going to work. I will look into this matter

:29:13.:29:15.

to the very best of my ability... I think the attacks on the chair

:29:16.:29:20.

have to cease, I think the attacks It actually makes it harder to get

:29:21.:29:23.

to the facts and get to the truth and that's the most

:29:24.:29:29.

important thing now. Some said it was unavoidable

:29:30.:29:34.

that this tragedy became political, but will the politics help get

:29:35.:29:37.

to the truth? I'm joined now by the Labour

:29:38.:29:45.

MP for Kensington - who we heard at the end of that film

:29:46.:29:48.

- Emma Dent Coad. Now this judge, leading the Grenfell

:29:49.:29:59.

inquiry, have you met him? I haven't met him, no. So what evidence do you

:30:00.:30:04.

have that he doesn't in your words understand human beings? Well, I am

:30:05.:30:08.

reflecting what people are telling me out there, that they as soon as

:30:09.:30:14.

his name was announced everybody looked up his credentials, they

:30:15.:30:18.

found a particular case he had been involved in, the very issue that

:30:19.:30:23.

people are most worried about, post Grenfell is they will be moved out

:30:24.:30:27.

of the borough somewhere else. This issue about social cleansing. It was

:30:28.:30:31.

insensitive to have chosen somebody with that on his record. Whether he

:30:32.:30:34.

made that decision according to the rules. It is one judgment in a long

:30:35.:30:39.

career, he may be able to defend what he did. You have said he

:30:40.:30:44.

doesn't understand human beings but you have told us you have never met

:30:45.:30:47.

him? It is nothing to do with meeting him. It is the system where

:30:48.:30:51.

people have to be friends in order to work together, judged by the

:30:52.:30:55.

evidence, judge by what people have done that, judge by merit and

:30:56.:30:59.

whether or not you can be friendly. What has he done wrong in his

:31:00.:31:04.

career? It is symbolic the issue he made a decision about, it is

:31:05.:31:08.

symbolic for everybody. I am reflecting the community who are

:31:09.:31:12.

been betrayed. You don't think in your often view you don't take the

:31:13.:31:15.

view he doesn't understand human beings. Personally I do. I do

:31:16.:31:19.

actually but I am reflecting what people are saying, the people who

:31:20.:31:23.

elected me, who have been badly betrayed by the authority, they are

:31:24.:31:27.

seeing it that way, they have been betrayed and now they see you know,

:31:28.:31:34.

they worst fear is this will be used top socially cleanse north

:31:35.:31:37.

Kensington. What is the evidence for that? About social cleansing? No,

:31:38.:31:42.

this will be used to do so. Whether or not there is ever, there is no

:31:43.:31:46.

trust in somebody who has been part of that process. He has been chosen

:31:47.:31:51.

by the Lord Chief Justice, not as the Prime Minister as some have

:31:52.:31:58.

said. He has a long ex perness of commercial contracts and disaster,

:31:59.:32:02.

both of which will be vital. It is a lot to do with overlapping

:32:03.:32:07.

commercial contract, he is a specialist in that area, what bit

:32:08.:32:11.

doesn't make his qualified and and doesn't he reflect the independence

:32:12.:32:15.

of the judiciary? Well, we certainly need somebody who can do the detail.

:32:16.:32:19.

This is a human disaster as much as anything else. We need somebody who,

:32:20.:32:22.

we saw in the meeting there, there is a lot of anger and people aren't

:32:23.:32:27.

trusting. . That would be true, we all understand the anger, of course,

:32:28.:32:31.

but that would be true whoever was chosen. Are you really after... Do

:32:32.:32:35.

you want someone to head up this inquiry that will give you a show

:32:36.:32:39.

trial rather than an independent inquiry. It is exactly the opposite.

:32:40.:32:43.

. Woe won't give us a show trial, is he? If there is no trust, people

:32:44.:32:48.

won't co-operate with him. A lot of people will need to co-operate with

:32:49.:32:54.

him. Some of the groups are not involved, they are protest groups

:32:55.:32:59.

who are not representing the victims, or the survivors, we have

:33:00.:33:04.

very little evidence that those who directly affected by this are saying

:33:05.:33:09.

they are not going to co-operate. Well, everybody who lives round

:33:10.:33:13.

there is a victim to some extent, they have all been affected, myself

:33:14.:33:17.

as well, I live three blocksia from it and a lot of the groups are very

:33:18.:33:21.

much involved in that community, not only the people who lived there who

:33:22.:33:25.

survived, but some of the campaign groups have been campaigning for

:33:26.:33:29.

years about social housing in area. What sort of person to you think

:33:30.:33:32.

should head up the inquiry is this If it has to be Martin, we need an

:33:33.:33:38.

advisory panel with representatives from different groups who can at

:33:39.:33:42.

least advise and feed in information, at least if we have no

:33:43.:33:47.

choice, we need at least that. But rather than him, what sort of

:33:48.:33:52.

person? I am not sure, are you saying he should remain but he needs

:33:53.:33:55.

to be assisted by a panel or he should be replaced? If we have no

:33:56.:34:00.

choice, then we should have an advisory panel to back it up.

:34:01.:34:04.

Something that people trust in. At the moment they don't trust the

:34:05.:34:07.

process, which is understandable, and his name was announced the same

:34:08.:34:12.

day as the Hillsborough disaster, the criminal investigation and so

:34:13.:34:16.

on, that after 28 year, this is what people, how people see it. They

:34:17.:34:20.

want, they don't trust the process s it won't work proppism it is not

:34:21.:34:23.

just what I think, it is what people who are directly involved thing.

:34:24.:34:29.

John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor says people who died at Grenfell

:34:30.:34:32.

were murdered by political decision do you agree? That is a strong way

:34:33.:34:36.

of putting it. I know a lot of people feel like that. There is

:34:37.:34:41.

massive failure of political decision, I have seen that

:34:42.:34:45.

happening. But murder? That is an active verb. It means you intended

:34:46.:34:52.

to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be right, these were political

:34:53.:34:55.

decisions taken intended to kill. I don't share his view on that

:34:56.:34:59.

particular issue, there has been a failure of care, for many, many

:35:00.:35:03.

years and a failure of investment for many year, as I have seen

:35:04.:35:08.

myself. But part of the problem has been investment. They had nine

:35:09.:35:13.

million spent on this block I was looking at it today, the other tower

:35:14.:35:17.

blocks round it have not been clad. Of course if they had gone on fire,

:35:18.:35:23.

the disaster would not have been on the same scale. Nine million helped

:35:24.:35:28.

to produce this. In indeed. The process of how that building was

:35:29.:35:33.

refurbished. It says it is to make it look better, half a mile down the

:35:34.:35:39.

road, the tower blocks have been clad, they were clad in mineral

:35:40.:35:46.

wool. I spent a day at a seminar by chance understanding, it is

:35:47.:35:51.

non-combustible. Who made that decision to use rain cladding rather

:35:52.:35:58.

than mineral wool. You were on the the board of who took that decision.

:35:59.:36:04.

The council had no say about the specification, we didn't have any

:36:05.:36:08.

involvement at all. It didn't come before you, because it has tenants

:36:09.:36:14.

on it too. The TMO does, The advisory committee to the TMO. There

:36:15.:36:19.

is the TMO. I was not there at the time. As far as I understand a sub

:36:20.:36:24.

group decided or reviewed the specifications of that. The housing

:36:25.:36:28.

and property committee is part of the council. Obviously you a say,

:36:29.:36:33.

but whether or not, we don't have any say at all over specification, I

:36:34.:36:37.

want to say somebody because I have been accused of... That because my

:36:38.:36:46.

predecessor said I should take responsibility, a clueing colleague

:36:47.:36:49.

of mine got beaten up for that, there is no foundation for that

:36:50.:36:52.

allegation. I thank you for clearing that up. Thank you for joining us

:36:53.:36:55.

too. It's just gone 11.35,

:36:56.:37:01.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:02.:37:03.

in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:04.:37:05.

minutes, The Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday

:37:06.:37:09.

Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:37:10.:37:19.

in Northern Ireland. After all the talk of

:37:20.:37:21.

deals and deadlines, negotiations at Stormont have

:37:22.:37:23.

ended without agreement. So what next for the

:37:24.:37:26.

devolved institutions? We'll hear from a former Secretary

:37:27.:37:28.

of State who was involved in getting power-sharing up and running

:37:29.:37:31.

ten years ago. Plus, with the Department of Finance

:37:32.:37:34.

left holding the purse strings, how long before uncertainty starts

:37:35.:37:37.

to impact on our economic growth? We'll hear from an economist

:37:38.:37:44.

and from the past president of the Construction Employers'

:37:45.:37:46.

Federation. And with their thoughts

:37:47.:37:47.

on all of that, my guests of the day MLAs should be looking forward

:37:48.:37:51.

to the start of their summer break, but after months of talking

:37:52.:38:01.

and several missed deadlines, any chance of them returning

:38:02.:38:04.

to the Assembly chamber But the parties have been in this

:38:05.:38:06.

situation before and managed to negotiate a way through it -

:38:07.:38:11.

so will the summer break help or hinder the process

:38:12.:38:15.

of getting a deal? I'm joined by the former Secretary

:38:16.:38:17.

of State, Lord Hain, who was involved in the negotiations

:38:18.:38:19.

that led to the re-establishment No-one seems to be quite sure where

:38:20.:38:22.

we are with this at the moment. There seem to be more

:38:23.:38:33.

questions than answers. Everybody is in the same place and

:38:34.:38:45.

that's the problem. My position would be to support my successor as

:38:46.:38:53.

so set -- Secretary of State and the government of Northern Ireland, but

:38:54.:38:57.

the truth is there has been a shocking dereliction of

:38:58.:39:02.

responsibility by both governments, British and Irish, there is nobody

:39:03.:39:07.

at the helm, nobody is taking any initiatives to drive this board,

:39:08.:39:13.

there is a sense of drift and the Secretary of State last week said it

:39:14.:39:17.

would all be sorted by the end of the week, he has been making those

:39:18.:39:21.

noises for months and it never was and nobody last week believed it

:39:22.:39:28.

would be. There has to be a sense of change and Northern Ireland deserves

:39:29.:39:33.

better than this. You and I spoke last week just before the deadline

:39:34.:39:39.

happened and you were a tad more diplomatic and what you had to say.

:39:40.:39:44.

This is strong language from you today, suggesting the government has

:39:45.:39:48.

failed, James Brokenshire has failed. Do you think it goes up to

:39:49.:39:54.

the steps of Number 10? Michelle O'Neill says a monumental failure on

:39:55.:39:59.

behalf of Theresa May, do you share that view? I'm not backing any

:40:00.:40:06.

party's view but telling it as I see it, and my successor, Paul Murphy,

:40:07.:40:11.

and I both warned in the House of Lords six months ago that unless

:40:12.:40:16.

there was a summit of the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister, a high event

:40:17.:40:22.

to sort this out, we could get into trouble and it gives me no pleasure

:40:23.:40:29.

to say that has happened. I do not believe the whole problem in

:40:30.:40:32.

Northern Ireland has been properly gripped, either in London or Dublin

:40:33.:40:38.

four years, and especially over the past year and we have got into this

:40:39.:40:44.

terrible impasse and it's very serious, the last time the Assembly

:40:45.:40:48.

was suspended it took five years to get it up and running again and now

:40:49.:40:53.

we are over six months and drifting further into the autumn and winter,

:40:54.:40:59.

who knows when? And this is a critical time for Northern Ireland,

:41:00.:41:04.

not because of the Troubles but because Brexit, whereas Wales is

:41:05.:41:10.

making its input, Scotland and England is having it say directly in

:41:11.:41:15.

negotiations, in Wales and Scotland's case through the

:41:16.:41:20.

government, in London's case to the mayor yet the voice of Northern

:41:21.:41:24.

Ireland through its politicians is silent and that is a terrible

:41:25.:41:29.

dereliction of responsibility. You say there needs to be a high-level

:41:30.:41:36.

summit, are you saying the situation cannot be resolved satisfactorily

:41:37.:41:40.

without the personal engagement of the Prime Minister and Taoiseach?

:41:41.:41:47.

Has it got that far? Yes, unquestionably, it should have

:41:48.:41:50.

happened earlier and it should happen now. It's no good hoping to

:41:51.:41:55.

get an agreement within days when everyone knows that is moonshine, no

:41:56.:41:59.

good saying it may happen in such timbre. September will come and go

:42:00.:42:05.

and there will be no agreement because there is no sense of anybody

:42:06.:42:10.

driving this and I blame those at the top, especially of the British

:42:11.:42:15.

government, the Prime Minister especially and the Taoiseach, the

:42:16.:42:22.

card the government of Britain and Ireland from the Good Friday process

:42:23.:42:25.

on Word have both taken responsibility for this issue and

:42:26.:42:32.

Northern Ireland deserves a lot better than a Prime Minister or

:42:33.:42:35.

Taoiseach who have taken their eye off the ball and a Secretary of

:42:36.:42:40.

State and others who may be paddling furiously under the water but there

:42:41.:42:47.

is no sense of any drive and no sense of any consequences for

:42:48.:42:50.

Northern Ireland's politicians of not doing their jobs. It's

:42:51.:42:56.

interesting that you should use this language, markedly different from

:42:57.:43:01.

the language used by the Shadow Secretary of State, Owen Smith, and

:43:02.:43:06.

Jeremy Corbyn has not been criticising Theresa May on this

:43:07.:43:10.

particular issue, failing to deal with the impasse in Northern

:43:11.:43:16.

Ireland, so are you alone voice and are you implicitly criticising the

:43:17.:43:20.

leadership of your own party? Not at all. Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn

:43:21.:43:27.

are taking their traditional stance of trying to be as supportive as

:43:28.:43:32.

possible in Parliament. But supporting a strategy that you have

:43:33.:43:40.

told me cannot work. As a former Secretary of State, I think I'm in a

:43:41.:43:45.

different position, I'm not involved in the parliamentary front line

:43:46.:43:49.

situation as I was, and I can tell it straight as I see it and it's not

:43:50.:43:56.

just to me, it's my predecessor Paul Murphy, who said much the same,

:43:57.:44:02.

columnists like Alex Kane who you have on the programme, who was

:44:03.:44:06.

saying much the same and he was a former Ulster unionist director of

:44:07.:44:11.

communications. What would you do now if you were James Brokenshire

:44:12.:44:16.

are? He talked about profound and serious implications if the deadline

:44:17.:44:20.

was not met, it wasn't met and none of us are wiser as to what those

:44:21.:44:26.

implications are. What would you do if you were back here as Secretary

:44:27.:44:33.

of State? Would you cut MLAs' salaries or threatened to introduce

:44:34.:44:37.

water charges? I would have the Prime Minister at my side as I did

:44:38.:44:42.

under Tony Blair and the Irish Foreign Minister did with Bertie R

:44:43.:44:46.

Hearn, those two word gripping this on a daily basis over years so I

:44:47.:44:51.

would be in a different position but I did take editions, and it's not

:44:52.:44:58.

for me to do -- to say to the current Secretary of State what he

:44:59.:45:03.

should do, but I took the view that unless there was progress of a

:45:04.:45:07.

systematic kind which eventually succeeded, I would take away MLA

:45:08.:45:13.

expenses which meant their staff would have to be given notice and

:45:14.:45:20.

also the party funding, the parties together with their expenses and

:45:21.:45:25.

direct party funding at Stormont, they are getting millions of pounds

:45:26.:45:28.

and yet they are the only group of Northern Ireland workers who are not

:45:29.:45:32.

going to work and earning their salaries. So far there is a lot of

:45:33.:45:40.

character... That has to be on the agenda. We have a lot of carrot and

:45:41.:45:46.

no stick, you are saying James Brokenshire need to think seriously

:45:47.:45:51.

about an inventory of sanctions if he is going to cajole politicians to

:45:52.:45:56.

coming to an agreement, or he will set more deadlines and we will drive

:45:57.:46:00.

a coach through them as well. Clearly deadlines mean nothing and

:46:01.:46:06.

that means you have no credibility as a government if you set deadlines

:46:07.:46:12.

that are not met. That was the position I took on the consequences

:46:13.:46:19.

of no deal, I also introduced water charges and a ban on academic

:46:20.:46:23.

selection and when those proved unpopular I said to the politicians,

:46:24.:46:30.

OK, if you don't like them, you take responsibility, negotiate a deal

:46:31.:46:34.

with the others and get on with the jobs you are supposed to do but the

:46:35.:46:40.

buck should stop at Number 10 and in Dublin and they have not taken

:46:41.:46:43.

charge, that is were the main problem lies. Briefly, Lord came, as

:46:44.:46:51.

things stand, do you think we are inevitably looking at the

:46:52.:46:57.

reintroduction of direct rule? I do, I cannot see where else we are going

:46:58.:47:01.

and that would be a tragedy. I thought I was the last direct rule

:47:02.:47:07.

Secretary of State in 2007, it would be an absolute tragedy and a

:47:08.:47:13.

dangerous time for Northern Ireland with the broader question the

:47:14.:47:18.

elephant in the room, Brexit having enormous consequences for Northern

:47:19.:47:24.

Ireland. Very interesting to hear your thoughts, thank you for joining

:47:25.:47:25.

us from Wales. Let's hear from my guests of

:47:26.:47:27.

the day, Alex Kane and Anna Mercer. Not pulling any punches. He is not,

:47:28.:47:39.

although when Peter was Secretary of State, Sinn Fein and the DUP had

:47:40.:47:45.

just eclipsed the UUP and SDLP, they wanted to do a deal, they both had

:47:46.:47:50.

something to prove and that has gone, neither has anything to prove

:47:51.:47:55.

and he's right about direct rule, these parties want to govern but not

:47:56.:48:02.

together. How do you see it? There is a lack of experience

:48:03.:48:06.

across-the-board, we have two new leaders, our Secretary of State is

:48:07.:48:12.

pretty new in the job, previous crises we may have had bigger

:48:13.:48:17.

figures, Martin McGuinness and Peter Robinson and Paisley, who had that

:48:18.:48:23.

experience of trying to push things went it didn't seem like anyone was

:48:24.:48:27.

moving. At the moment we want to create a winner and a loser and we

:48:28.:48:34.

need a win for everyone. What about the notion that Prime Minister and

:48:35.:48:37.

Taoiseach need to be personally engaged or there is no chance of

:48:38.:48:44.

momentum? I don't see where else the leadership will come from.

:48:45.:48:49.

Westminster goes into recess on the 20th of July, we have heard there

:48:50.:48:54.

will not be budget legislation before then, do we go to another

:48:55.:49:00.

election? What will change, I'm not sure, and Sinn Fein and the DUP are

:49:01.:49:04.

seeing strong results on both sides so why should they move? Interesting

:49:05.:49:11.

Sinn Fein has not called for another election. They know it will bring

:49:12.:49:16.

them back with the same figures and they don't need a summit, Theresa

:49:17.:49:22.

May and the Taoiseach have no particular interest, just lock them

:49:23.:49:25.

in a room and say you have three months and if you don't do a deal,

:49:26.:49:28.

everything is closed. Well, while we are without

:49:29.:49:30.

an Assembly and an Executive, government departments must

:49:31.:49:33.

still continue to provide public services and spend

:49:34.:49:35.

their money accordingly. But how long can we continue

:49:36.:49:37.

without either local or hands-on direct rule ministers

:49:38.:49:39.

and what impact is it In a moment we'll hear

:49:40.:49:41.

from the economist Paul MacFlynn and Rhona Quinn, who's a former

:49:42.:49:45.

president of the Construction But first here's our business

:49:46.:49:47.

correspondent, Julian O'Neill. Stormont collapsed without having

:49:48.:49:58.

set a budget for this year, leaving senior civil servants in control of

:49:59.:50:03.

the departmental spending but the cash flow is constrained in the

:50:04.:50:07.

circumstances, the civil servants got only 75% of the block grant

:50:08.:50:12.

allocation to begin with and by the end of this month it will move to

:50:13.:50:18.

95%. In theory this leaves a ?500 million shortfall but a budget and

:50:19.:50:23.

access to all the block grant is very likely in the autumn. If there

:50:24.:50:29.

is no political agreement allowing Stormont to do it, Westminster will

:50:30.:50:33.

add, a bit like how it sorted out rates bills earlier this year.

:50:34.:50:38.

Meantime, Blix services are largely ticking over the James Brokenshire

:50:39.:50:43.

is likely to step in soon and make some spending decisions. A sum of

:50:44.:50:50.

around ?120 million needs to be freed up and allocated to

:50:51.:50:55.

departments with health and education likely beneficiaries. It

:50:56.:50:59.

will be a bit like the Secretary of State doing the kind of monitoring

:51:00.:51:03.

round which usually happens around the Executive table.

:51:04.:51:04.

Joining me now are Rhona Quinn and Paul MacFlynn.

:51:05.:51:08.

Paul, it looks like we won't have a budget until the autumn,

:51:09.:51:11.

although James Brokenshire looks set to step in and distribute that ?120

:51:12.:51:14.

million in end-of-year monitoring, but who makes the decisions on how

:51:15.:51:17.

In the absence of an executive, it will have to be a minister of some

:51:18.:51:30.

kind and unfortunately the only minister at present is the Secretary

:51:31.:51:34.

of State. He can do that in conjunction with parties but it is

:51:35.:51:42.

his decent vision and the ?120 million is significant but

:51:43.:51:45.

notwithstanding the election result, the block grant for Northern Ireland

:51:46.:51:51.

was outlined in the April budget, it is flat until 2020 and with

:51:52.:51:55.

inflation that means large cuts, so decisions around where that money

:51:56.:52:00.

will be spent will become difficult and too makes those decisions will

:52:01.:52:05.

be even worse. The rule of thumb is if there is an existing project

:52:06.:52:09.

under way, civil servants can continue to feed the money into that

:52:10.:52:14.

that of a new strategy is to be put in place for a decision taken about

:52:15.:52:20.

a major capital projects, that requires a minister and if we don't

:52:21.:52:25.

have direct rule ministers were locally elected ministers, those

:52:26.:52:31.

projects will go into abeyance. Even projects that have been given

:52:32.:52:35.

initial ministerial direction, if they run into trouble that require

:52:36.:52:41.

policy decisions, there has to be some ministerial responsibility.

:52:42.:52:44.

Civil servants will not take those decisions and that goes to somewhere

:52:45.:52:49.

in London or in Whitehall discussions, who knows how long the

:52:50.:52:55.

delay could be? Rhona, what are the implications for your company and

:52:56.:53:00.

the people you represented at the absence of that decision-making

:53:01.:53:06.

capability? First of all Peter Hain is right, this is a serious

:53:07.:53:09.

situation and any uncertainty for business is not good regardless what

:53:10.:53:15.

secretary you are in. Our difficulties are a lack of

:53:16.:53:19.

decision-making on projects due to the lack of ministerial approval. In

:53:20.:53:24.

our industry there are in-built delays to the planning and

:53:25.:53:29.

procurement processes so this will add further delays so the lack of

:53:30.:53:33.

spent on infrastructure is not good for our industry or the wider

:53:34.:53:39.

economy because it prevents inward investment, attracting tourism, so

:53:40.:53:42.

overall it is not good for the economy. What is your message to

:53:43.:53:48.

politicians who do not seem capable of coming together and reaching

:53:49.:53:53.

agreement? I would like to think our politicians are working for the good

:53:54.:54:00.

of the economy. First we need a functioning administration up and

:54:01.:54:04.

going but we needed in the context of a fair and inclusive society, I

:54:05.:54:08.

would also like to say the infrastructure of spent should be

:54:09.:54:12.

spread evenly across the province, the West should not be forgotten

:54:13.:54:19.

about. Paul, I wonder what to think the implications might be for an

:54:20.:54:23.

extra money the DUP got out the Conservative Party to keep in

:54:24.:54:31.

government? ?1.5 billion, is it possible that money will not be able

:54:32.:54:36.

to be spent while we continue in this limbo? That's a political deal

:54:37.:54:43.

outside ordinary government accounts so what's the deal between the DUP

:54:44.:54:47.

and the Conservatives how that will be spent. There are maybe a

:54:48.:54:51.

structure that we see it spent in the absence of an executive from the

:54:52.:54:57.

UK Government's point of view, they gave the least amount of money they

:54:58.:55:03.

could, the Treasury always does, so the idea of having local politicians

:55:04.:55:08.

is they make decisions for the benefit of Northern Ireland, if the

:55:09.:55:11.

Treasury makes decisions, they will make decisions that benefit the

:55:12.:55:15.

Treasury and that means keeping as much as they can. But it requires

:55:16.:55:22.

politicians at some level, whether direct rule ministers were locally

:55:23.:55:26.

elected, someone has to take responsibility for divvying up that

:55:27.:55:30.

money. The Secretary of State already intervened with respect of

:55:31.:55:36.

regional rates, he indicated what his budget would look like and if

:55:37.:55:41.

that comes in the autumn in the absence of an executive but whether

:55:42.:55:48.

direct rule ministers are appointed is a relevant, where decisions are

:55:49.:55:51.

taken is what matters and they are either being taken in Stormont or

:55:52.:55:55.

Westminster and there doesn't seem to be an option in between. Are we

:55:56.:56:01.

in the worst possible situation, neither devolution nor direct rule,

:56:02.:56:06.

does that provide uncertainty for RE, may? Absolutely, we are in a

:56:07.:56:13.

perfect storm, not only facing a lack of administration but all the

:56:14.:56:20.

uncertainty around Brexit so it is a serious situation, OK, direct rule

:56:21.:56:26.

is maybe something we have to do if it is the only option but I would

:56:27.:56:30.

like to think that as a temporary measure because we need local

:56:31.:56:35.

politicians making local decisions about how we spend our money, if we

:56:36.:56:39.

have a London-based politicians deciding about a much-needed school

:56:40.:56:44.

in County Tyrone, it would be harder for him to make that case than a

:56:45.:56:49.

local politician so it is critical we have local people making these

:56:50.:56:54.

decisions. Not just Tyrone, the West is a big place but old politics is

:56:55.:57:01.

local. A final note about the York Street Interchange project, do you

:57:02.:57:07.

know how that stands? We know there has been initial ministerial

:57:08.:57:11.

direction for it but they can run into difficulties which require a

:57:12.:57:15.

policy decision and that that is a priority in Westminster, all well

:57:16.:57:19.

and good but if not it will model on for years. Interesting to hear your

:57:20.:57:22.

perspectives. Now, let's pause and have a look

:57:23.:57:25.

back at the week in 60 seconds After months of talks

:57:26.:57:29.

no deal was reached It has been hugely damaging in

:57:30.:57:41.

respect of public confidence in the institutions and we need to build up

:57:42.:57:47.

that confidence. This constitutes an monumental failure on behalf of

:57:48.:57:48.

Theresa May. And the other parties forecast

:57:49.:57:48.

problems ahead for Northern Ireland. People across Northern Ireland are

:57:49.:57:56.

facing weeks of further political paralysis. And a general loss of

:57:57.:58:03.

trust and respect for politicians in Northern Ireland.

:58:04.:58:03.

With the talks process unsuccessful, the focus shifted

:58:04.:58:05.

I intend to bring forward legislation that will provide for

:58:06.:58:14.

the publication of all donations and loans received by Northern Ireland

:58:15.:58:18.

parties after July 2017. The Alliance Party are unhappy

:58:19.:58:19.

the figures won't be backdated. Failure to address that issue

:58:20.:58:27.

properly can only enhance suspicion and cynicism.

:58:28.:58:28.

Enda and Rory pair up at the Irish Open.

:58:29.:58:34.

Let's have a final word with Alex and Anna.

:58:35.:58:41.

Alex, we have been hearing about the legal challenge mounted by a Green

:58:42.:58:47.

Party member here questioning the legality of the deal between the

:58:48.:58:52.

Tories and the DUP in that it allegedly breaches the Good Friday

:58:53.:58:57.

Agreement. I'm not sure it does breach the terms, I don't think the

:58:58.:59:01.

deal has compromised the neutrality of the British government. That is

:59:02.:59:06.

what Ciaran McClean once a court to decide. I think it will go nowhere,

:59:07.:59:14.

parties make deals in these circumstances, the Tories had to

:59:15.:59:18.

make a deal, you cannot turn around and say ignore the will of

:59:19.:59:23.

Parliament and two big parties. Ciaran McClean's case is that it

:59:24.:59:27.

preaches the rigorous impartiality required by the Good Friday

:59:28.:59:33.

Agreement. And the British and Irish governments are supposed to be

:59:34.:59:36.

custodians of the Good Friday Agreement. I think Alex has a point,

:59:37.:59:41.

it may be the perception that is more damaging than the legal out

:59:42.:59:46.

workings, I'm not a lawyer but I think with the challenges we have

:59:47.:59:51.

seen an Brexit, politicians is a land apart. I think what will be

:59:52.:59:56.

difficult is as we go forward, what happens to this money, how is it

:59:57.:00:00.

allocated without an executive and with only the DUP with Lady Sylvia

:00:01.:00:07.

Hermon in Westminster and no nationalist representatives, how can

:00:08.:00:10.

we ensure the British government remain that neutral arbiter? That is

:00:11.:00:12.

a big Now just under a year ago,

:00:13.:00:13.

Theresa May was making her way back from Buckingham Palace having been

:00:14.:00:25.

asked by the Queen To say it's been a tumultuous twelve

:00:26.:00:27.

months would be an understatement - here's a reminder of

:00:28.:00:31.

the highs and lows. I have just been to Buckingham

:00:32.:00:39.

Palace, where Her Majesty the Queen has asked me to form

:00:40.:00:42.

a new Government and I accepted. If you're just managing,

:00:43.:00:50.

I want to address you directly. I know you're working

:00:51.:00:52.

around-the-clock, I know you're doing your best,

:00:53.:00:54.

and I know that sometimes When future generations

:00:55.:00:56.

look back at this time, they will judge us not only

:00:57.:01:05.

by the decision that we made, but by I have just chaired a meeting

:01:06.:01:08.

of the Cabinet, where we agreed that the Government should call

:01:09.:01:23.

a general election to The Conservative Party

:01:24.:01:27.

has won the most seats and probably the most votes,

:01:28.:01:45.

then it will be incumbent on us to ensure we have that period

:01:46.:01:50.

of stability and that is exactly So 12 months in the life of Theresa

:01:51.:02:08.

May, and the rest of us too. I am exhausted. I don't know what she

:02:09.:02:13.

feels like! How weak or strong is her position and this constant

:02:14.:02:17.

reporting, more on the Sunday paper today about groups of Tory MPs

:02:18.:02:22.

manoeuvring to bring her down in the autumn, before the autumn after the

:02:23.:02:25.

autumn, name a month between now and the end of the year. Is that, that

:02:26.:02:29.

has to be corrosive as well. Absolutely. Every week there will be

:02:30.:02:34.

another story. The reality is the stronger Jeremy Corbyn and the

:02:35.:02:37.

Labour Party look the stronger her position is because it is what are

:02:38.:02:42.

the alternative, Theresa May or... It is depending on the polls where

:02:43.:02:46.

it is Theresa May herself who is helping to cause that boost for

:02:47.:02:50.

Jeremy Corbyn, if she is the toxic part of the Tory party brand, and if

:02:51.:02:55.

they get rid of her the Tories would spring back up and the Labour Party

:02:56.:03:00.

would go down or is it best for her to soak it, literally draw out the

:03:01.:03:05.

toxins and then, I don't know, two money, six months a year, she stands

:03:06.:03:09.

down and next leader takes the over, next generation or David Davis and

:03:10.:03:14.

they start again, start afresh, and she takes all the badness, the

:03:15.:03:19.

toxins with her this is thing, there must be a hell of a lot of detailed

:03:20.:03:23.

polls right now find that out. I don't know the answer. Can she

:03:24.:03:30.

relaunch herself? No, she will make a big speech on Tuesday, ex tracts

:03:31.:03:34.

are being briefed into tomorrow's papers, I have seen them. . What is

:03:35.:03:42.

the subject matter? Me. Not me, her. There has been enough movement from

:03:43.:03:48.

BBC... It is going to be her, it will be the relaunch. I have a

:03:49.:03:51.

purpose, still here and allow me to stay, but the problem is, Julia is

:03:52.:03:55.

right, there is a feeling among Tory MPs it would be ideal for her to

:03:56.:04:01.

last at least two years, suck in the bad bit, and to have a referendum or

:04:02.:04:05.

not, and the miscalculations and bring in a new person, untarnished.

:04:06.:04:10.

The problem over that is events dear boy as someone once said. Brexit may

:04:11.:04:15.

go well, it may not. Talks may produce something or she may get

:04:16.:04:20.

stuck down a hole. She is the sticking plaster over the two side

:04:21.:04:24.

of the Tory party. She is there, because they want her to be there

:04:25.:04:28.

and that Palacester is stilled holding, if that seismic divide goes

:04:29.:04:32.

any further, the plaster breaks she will go down the hole with it. David

:04:33.:04:39.

Davis said she doesn't want a leadership election, the papers are

:04:40.:04:43.

full of briefings from what are claimed to be from his people saying

:04:44.:04:49.

she faces abject misery, that it is time she will have to go sooner

:04:50.:04:53.

rather than later, they clearly haven't got the memo from DD as he

:04:54.:05:00.

is called. Publicly they have, to declare loyalty until the moment

:05:01.:05:03.

when they feel the time has come to be disloyal. The problem she has got

:05:04.:05:12.

is that context determines 95% of how a leader is perceived. She can

:05:13.:05:17.

make a brilliant speech this week about how she plans to be bold but

:05:18.:05:23.

the context is that lost majority in the election, a hung parliament with

:05:24.:05:31.

Brexit looming. It makes it hard to be bold, hung Parliaments are not

:05:32.:05:34.

bold. You will have to manoeuvre all the time and it be exhausting and

:05:35.:05:41.

transparent in the scheming, a like with the arrangement with the DUP,

:05:42.:05:44.

some of the vote it is a have happened and it will be utterly

:05:45.:05:48.

draining, now Julia is is right. The key question for the Tories will be

:05:49.:05:52.

if they get someone else in, does that transform their prospects?

:05:53.:05:56.

While that is not clear, I agree she will probably cling on, but there

:05:57.:06:03.

will be no glorious summer for her again, the pre-election context was

:06:04.:06:06.

fantastic for her, it is really dark now, and tough. The key thing is

:06:07.:06:12.

what you said, who would have thunk it. You have said the Tories are

:06:13.:06:17.

frightened to call to provoke us another election because they fear,

:06:18.:06:22.

they think Jeremy Corbyn will win. Who would have thought we would get

:06:23.:06:27.

into that position? In the same argument who would have thought

:06:28.:06:32.

Theresa May been so popular. Who would have thought Jeremy Corbyn

:06:33.:06:35.

would get where he is now? That shows there is still hope for not

:06:36.:06:39.

maybe, maybe not Theresa May, I think that she has holed below the

:06:40.:06:44.

water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa May's

:06:45.:06:48.

defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she has

:06:49.:06:53.

been exposed, during the election campaign for just not having enough

:06:54.:06:57.

of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of

:06:58.:07:01.

steel, a lesser man or holed below the water line, what goes up can

:07:02.:07:04.

also come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she will

:07:05.:07:07.

last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the election

:07:08.:07:09.

campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be

:07:10.:07:12.

fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or woman holed

:07:13.:07:15.

below the water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa

:07:16.:07:18.

May's defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she

:07:19.:07:21.

has been exposed, during the election campaign for just not

:07:22.:07:23.

having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have

:07:24.:07:26.

a backbone of steel, a lesser man or woman who have gone, "I'm off now."

:07:27.:07:29.

To take the flak she is get, she is steely as they come. It is almost a

:07:30.:07:32.

form of penance she is doing, having brought her party to this less than

:07:33.:07:34.

glorious position, she's having to try and kind of restore things a

:07:35.:07:37.

bit, knowing in her heart of hearts and perhaps not as deep at that,

:07:38.:07:40.

that she will not be the beneficiary. Absolutely not. That is

:07:41.:07:42.

what she said to the 1922 Committee that Monday after the general

:07:43.:07:45.

election, I got us into this mess, I am going to get us out of it. Talks

:07:46.:07:48.

to MPs this week, it is interesting, there is pretty hard feeling

:07:49.:07:50.

settling that the new person should come from the 2010 intake, skip a

:07:51.:07:55.

generation. The Boris, the Teresa, the Hammonds. Bye Amber Rudd? She

:07:56.:08:03.

has a tiny minority -- majority. There was one minister in your foyer

:08:04.:08:09.

an hour ago. Did we have a foyer? I think about 30 of them, all of them

:08:10.:08:13.

believe it or not fancy their chance, and for any of those to

:08:14.:08:17.

expose themselves and to lay out their agenda they will need

:08:18.:08:19.

two-years to make these sort of Sport Reliefs Let us turn to Labour.

:08:20.:08:25.

Well, earlier we talked to Caroline Flint about the threat

:08:26.:08:28.

Here's what Shadow Minister and Corbyn ally, Chris Williamson,

:08:29.:08:32.

MPs need to reflect the political programme that is overwhelmingly

:08:33.:08:35.

supported by Labour members and Labour supporters,

:08:36.:08:37.

and if people aren't prepared to do that,

:08:38.:08:38.

then it will be up to members in their local constituencies

:08:39.:08:41.

How big a change is Labour going to undergo? To what extent will Labour

:08:42.:08:58.

now be recast in the mould of Mr Corbyn and his wing of the party?

:08:59.:09:04.

Well in policy terms it already has been largely recast into the Corbyn

:09:05.:09:08.

McDonnell view, although with lots of examples of them being pretty

:09:09.:09:13.

expedient, Trident being an example. Where they went into the election

:09:14.:09:19.

backing retention, even though personally they are totally

:09:20.:09:22.

committed to nuclear disarmament. He might be able to move to that

:09:23.:09:27.

position? They might but that example of expend yen sip leads me

:09:28.:09:32.

to this. . I suspect Corbyn and McDonnell will be thinking we are

:09:33.:09:37.

close to power do we really want 18 months of Civil War, which is what

:09:38.:09:44.

deelection battles would become, and terrible publicity, and an imflowing

:09:45.:09:50.

a party on the verge possibly of an election win. -- implosion. My guess

:09:51.:09:54.

is they won't and they will go out of their way to try and stop it.

:09:55.:10:00.

John McDonnell said many times divide a party lose elections, I

:10:01.:10:03.

don't think they will want this. There are power battles in party, we

:10:04.:10:07.

have been talking about it in the Tory party, and there will be

:10:08.:10:11.

moments of heightened tension between the Labour MPs and their

:10:12.:10:14.

memberships but I don't think that this is going to happen. If Steve is

:10:15.:10:20.

right we should be looking for signs of them looking for signs of them

:10:21.:10:26.

hosing things down. Although, I don't think they need to do this.

:10:27.:10:31.

The moderate wing of the party, they are not standing up to Jeremy Corbyn

:10:32.:10:36.

any more, they are trying to get a few Select Committee Chairmanships

:10:37.:10:39.

and survive and hope something happens. The extraordinary thing is,

:10:40.:10:44.

given that no-one expected Jeremy Corbyn, no-one tried to deselect him

:10:45.:10:51.

and no-one accused him of disloyalty. We are in Soviet style

:10:52.:10:58.

show trial, you know, repent territory. We haven't had a show

:10:59.:11:03.

trial yet. Matter of time. Apart from Brexit. The Labour Party are

:11:04.:11:07.

united until it comes to votes on the House of Commons on what to do

:11:08.:11:12.

about Europe. So, Brexit goes well, that 49 will wither away a bit and

:11:13.:11:18.

start getting... If Brexit goes badly. Vince Cable saying we need a

:11:19.:11:27.

mud referendum, huge temptation then among Labour MPs to recalibrate and

:11:28.:11:31.

a oar gue for staying in and that would split the partyty down the

:11:32.:11:37.

middle. You heard Owen Paterson say 85% of people voted for parties that

:11:38.:11:41.

wanted Brexit, meaning Labour and Conservative. It is true that Jeremy

:11:42.:11:47.

Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are more Eurosceptic than people realise.

:11:48.:11:51.

They want another election quickly, because they don't know how, this

:11:52.:11:56.

maybe as good as it gets. None of us know, so get an election quick

:11:57.:12:00.

because we think we might win it. That means that they could well play

:12:01.:12:05.

game, why would they just bolster the store Tories if a big defeat on

:12:06.:12:11.

Brexit could provoke an election. I am guessing they will play games, if

:12:12.:12:16.

there is chance of undermining the Government perhaps fatally to get

:12:17.:12:21.

this early election which would be massively in their interest, theyry

:12:22.:12:24.

ahead in the poll, I think that will do it. They have displayed

:12:25.:12:29.

expediency on Europe in the past, possibly arguing for it why having

:12:30.:12:34.

doubts about it in the referendum, for Remain, sorely. So yes, I think

:12:35.:12:38.

there will be, as I said earlier, in this Parliament there will be going

:12:39.:12:42.

to be moments where it looks as if the Government could be defeat and I

:12:43.:12:46.

think they will move towards defeating the Government. Any

:12:47.:12:53.

remainor should be more worried about the economics of a Corbyn left

:12:54.:12:57.

On that point we better leave it there.

:12:58.:13:00.

I'll be back here on BBC One at the same time next week

:13:01.:13:06.

And Jo Co's back tomorrow with the Daily Politics on BBC Two

:13:07.:13:10.

at the earlier time of 11am - that's because of Wimbledon.

:13:11.:13:13.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:14.:13:24.