Browse content similar to 16/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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And on Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland - a peace rally at Belfast | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
City Hall in response to the trouble over the past two weeks. | :01:26. | :01:36. | |
:01:36. | :01:36. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2144 seconds | :01:36. | :37:20. | |
But can a way forward be found on Hello and welcome to Sunday | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
Politics in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of people are taking part | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
in a peace rally this morning at Belfast City Hall, after almost two | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
weeks of loyalist protests about the council's decision to reduce | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
the number of days it flies the union flag. Those protests are | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
continuing despite calls from the First Minister and the Ulster | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
Unionist leader to suspend them. So, is there a way forward on the flags | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
issue? The leader of the PUP, Billy Hutchinson, and the Ulster Unionist | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
MLA, Basil McCrea, are with me. And from high praise to no praise - | :37:51. | :38:00. | |
tough times lie ahead for the Taoiseach? They made reckless | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
promises an advance of the election. They have broken almost every | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
promise. People feel somewhat betrayed. They thought it was going | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
to be the dawn of a New Era. Joining me to discuss all of this | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
is the SDLP's Conall MCDevitt and Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Up to a | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
thousand people staged a protest in Belfast city centre yesterday, over | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
the removal of the union flag from City Hall. On Friday, the leaders | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
of the DUP and the UUP, Peter Robinson and Mike Nesbitt, repeated | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
their call for the flag protests to stop. The two Unionist leaders say | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
they hope to announce a new initiative that will address many | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
of the issues raised over the next few days. With me now to discuss | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
the continuing flags protests and the problems it has caused for the | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
wider unionist family, are the PUP leader, Billy Hutchinson, and the | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
Ulster Unionist MLA, Basil McCrea - who lost the party whip, of course, | :38:48. | :38:56. | |
this week because of his stance on the issue. | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Billy Hutchinson, of the two main leaders in Unionism have said the | :39:00. | :39:08. | |
protests must stop. Will they stop? I think it is up to the leaders. | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
Leadership needs to be shown. We need to be very clear about what is | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
happening. These are people who feel that their Britishness has | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
ebbed away. People are quite entitled to show their fears, | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
frustration and anger. What needs to happen is people need to | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
redirect those into a political strategy. From my point of view, | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
that is a job we need to do. We need to give people alternatives. | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
Unfortunately, nobody wants to listen to what they're saying. | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
politicians have gone to the protests and have ostensibly been | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
there to stop violence. They say they have listened. But they also | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
say they want them to stop. The point has been made and we need to | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
move on. I do not know any politicians who have gone to the | :40:00. | :40:10. | |
protests. Once the violence starts, it is very hard to stop. There have | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
been 118 protests with no disturbances. This protest came | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
about because a decision was taken on 3rd December. Questions have to | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
be asked why people took that decision to remove the flag. Did | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
they not think that people would actually protest? Did they not | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
think people would complain? We need to ask them what their | :40:32. | :40:40. | |
strategy was. This was a democratic decision. Councillors to voted, | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
voted to fly the Union flag on designated days. If you are a | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
Democrat, you have to accept that? We need to look at that process. | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
That is what we're doing. We believe the process was illegal. | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
Watch over the next couple of days. We will announce what we're doing. | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
You're going to have a Jewish -- you're going to ask for a judicial | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
review? Let's wait and see. Something will happen in the next | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
few days. We are preparing the case. If it is as solid as I think, it | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
will be announced next week. Surely it would have been dealt with and | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
the vote would not have gone through? If I had listened to | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
everybody else telling me that it was that solid, I would not be | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
doing this. We are looking at the process and we are making sure that | :41:33. | :41:40. | |
we feel the process was faulty. you telling me this as the leader | :41:40. | :41:50. | |
:41:50. | :41:56. | ||
of the PE PE, or as part of a wider Unionist family? -- the PUP. What I | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
am telling you is I am speaking of the -- as the leader of the | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
Progressive Unionist parties. These are British citizens in Northern | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
Ireland to feel that something needs to be done. The ordinary | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
people in Belfast are asking for this to happen and we will make it | :42:12. | :42:20. | |
happen. To be absolutely clear, the developing -- the development you | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
promise is going to take place in the next few days. Are you flying | :42:23. | :42:29. | |
solo on that, or Au in some kind of alliance with other political | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
leaders? The only Alliance ironing is the alliance with the people who | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
feel aggrieved. Basil McCrea, what do you make of that? Is their any | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
illegality in what decision was made? I do not see it. But | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
regardless, if there is a problem with the process, all that will | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
happen is the process will be re- run properly. The result is likely | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
to remain the same. There is an issue for all politicians to | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
consider. We dealt with the issue in Lisburn in 2006. We did not get | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
the same sort of backlash. He is also part of the storm and | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
arrangements. Everybody voted for it. Designated days appears to be | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
the appropriate way to go forward. What is damaging is that people | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
have tried to say that this is a loss of Britishness. This is not. | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
This is an agreed way forward that protects British interests. Billy | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
Hutchinson is clearly of the view that you are frankly out of touch | :43:35. | :43:43. | |
with grass roots unionism? Let me say it quite clear it. The last two | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
weeks have been a complete and utter disaster for Unionism. Also, | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
the traders are Belfast and Northern Ireland. Whatever the | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
grievances, the damage has been immense. There has to be a better | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
way of dealing with the issue. I do not doubt that people have concerns. | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
But you deal with it in a different way. With the greatest respect, you | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
are hopelessly out of touch not just with grassroots Unionism, but | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
with mainstream Ulster Unionist thinking. You're a member of the | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
party but you're outside the party group. You had the whip withdrawn | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
because you could not behave yourself. I didn't think I am out | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
of step. You are out of step with the Ulster Unionist Party at | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
Stormont. My view is the vast majority of people in Northern | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
Ireland want an agreed way forward, one that respect everybody's | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
traditions, one that does not bring people onto the street. That is | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
what I was articulating. Why did 1000 people turn up and fell past | :44:48. | :44:57. | |
today? That is not representative of the whole of Northern Ireland. | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
The failure of politics in Northern Ireland, and this is really serious, | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
is that many politicians say one thing to some people and one thing | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
else to other people. It is time for a shared future. A way forward | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
means you have to have dialogue, you have to have a way of reaching | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
a consensus. You have to work out your differences. It does not get | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
sorted by bringing people at onto the streets. What is your response | :45:23. | :45:32. | |
to Basil McCrea, Billy Hutchinson? You do not read present the | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
majority opinion in the hall of Northern Ireland? -- represent. | :45:37. | :45:45. | |
think Basel is out of touch. The difficulty is that it is about | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
everything else. Nobody is saying that we should not have compromised. | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
What people are saying is that they should not have surrender. | :45:56. | :46:03. | |
agreed to the flag position. I have stated my position. I believe what | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
we need to do is to have a society in which we all can share. But the | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
difficulty at the moment is that we have dissident Republican activity | :46:11. | :46:18. | |
and we have Sinn Fein role outside the spirit of the Good Friday | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
Agreement. There was no need to do this on 3rd December. It is in the | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
third year of a tower of the city Council. When you were a Belfast | :46:29. | :46:37. | |
city Councillor you actually supported the flying of the flag. | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
My argument is that we support a designated days on the basis that | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
we were involved in a process. I have to say to you, the behaviour | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
of Republicans on the street has changed my attitude. Also joining | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
us in the Sunday Politics studio, the SDLP's Conall McDevitt and Sinn | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
Fein's Alex Maskey. If the responsibility for what has | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
happened in the past two weeks lies anywhere, many people would argue | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
it lies at your feet in Sinn Fein for bringing the issue to the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
Council four weeks before Christmas? That is totally | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
incorrect. This issue has been discussed at Belfast City Council | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
for several years. Yes, Sinn Fein has continued, as we have always | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
said very openly, we want to make sure we have a society here and | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
Government institutions which reflect what the people here | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
represent. The city Council has never fully represent all of the | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
people of Belfast. By a look what you have done now. You have popped | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
up a hornet's nest. All the Unionist parties supported Peter | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
Mandelson when he imposed this legislation about designated days. | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
What I'm saying is that Belfast City Council have been discussing | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
this is used -- issue for years. They have never once offered a | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
compromise to the rest of the people in the city. As far as I'm | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
concerned, Sinn Fein was prepared to accept a compromise to fly the | :48:05. | :48:13. | |
flag. There is No Irish National fight on that City Hall. Unless | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
Belfast City Council begins to fly an Irish national flag on | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
designated days, we still do not have equality. Can you imagine the | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
response you are going to have from Billy Hutchinson and others if you | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
seriously suggest that? Why not? When I put the Irish flag and the | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
the British flag in the Lord Mayor's Parlour, everybody wanted a | :48:35. | :48:45. | |
:48:45. | :48:47. | ||
photograph taken at the flag of their choice. There is differences. | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
In 1998, we agreed the Good Friday Agreement. It was about Parity and | :48:54. | :49:01. | |
esteem. We still have not got that. How do we manifest equality to the | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
Irish nationalists? Of do you want to develop that conversation | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
further into flying the try colour of a Belfast City Hall? -- the | :49:11. | :49:19. | |
tricolour. Has enough damage being done? Actually getting what this | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
past week proves is that there are two conversations that need to take | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
place at regional level. The first is about reconciliation. That means | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
facing up to the past, the British Army, paramilitaries, everybody's | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
role. The second is about identity. What do we know about Adem to be | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
this week? We did not learn it from the protesters. We know this is the | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
region of minorities and it is a city of minorities. What we all | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
have to do in the political class is move beyond flags in terms of | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
them being the only thing that could possibly represent identity, | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
and start having the courage to face up to the fact that yes, and | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
many are Irish. Many are Irish and Northern and proud to be. Very many | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
are British. Others do not want to be part of either a national | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
identity. Our politics and identity should be big enough and strong | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
enough to be able to put that at the heart of it. To make that the | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
basis for reconciliation. That is the difficulty. As soon as you | :50:21. | :50:28. | |
raise the issue of removing the Union flag to designated days, look | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
what happens. You have thousands of loyalists Adam the streets. This | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
Irish nationalist is not going to surrender to any flag driven agenda. | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
I'm not going to surrender to a type of politics that reduces this | :50:43. | :50:53. | |
place to some sort of stand-off between two tribes. Your party | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
agreed with that. What is your decision? Eyes and saying that as | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
politicians we need to move beyond this. -- I am saying. This is not | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
the issue. The issue is reconciliation. It is about the | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
past and the future. Billy Hutchinson, does this conversation | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
not raise the serious possibility that designated days Brenkley looks | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
like a pretty good deal for Unionists in Belfast, where they | :51:22. | :51:32. | |
:51:32. | :51:35. | ||
are a minority? What I would like to make clear to people is that the | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
flag they are referring to his IF lack of the Republic of Ireland. | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
The Republic of Ireland signed to the Good Friday Agreement. They did | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
away with articles 2 and 3. They agreed that Northern Ireland was a | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
part of the United Kingdom. Whether you like it or not, people in this | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
city of their allegiance to that flag. We are not arguing about this. | :51:59. | :52:08. | |
This is a flag of this region. This is part of the United Kingdom and | :52:08. | :52:17. | |
that is a fact. Let me finish. remain in the UK as long as the | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
majority of people wish to be. I respect that. My party invented | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
that principle. That does not make us all British. It does not make | :52:29. | :52:37. | |
this city British. Let's hear what Billy has to say. What we need to | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
do is find a way forward were both British and Irish people can share | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
this city. The difficulty with this is, that will not be done while | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
other people are talking about Brits out and wanted to remove | :52:48. | :52:58. | |
:52:58. | :52:59. | ||
flags. What people are insisting on is that we want to see how we move | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
forward. People are saying that this cannot be enforced upon them. | :53:05. | :53:13. | |
This came three years into a term. It is not a coincidence that it is | :53:13. | :53:21. | |
done in the year of 100 years. It is not a coincidence it was done in | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
the birthplace of Unionism. It was done to antagonise. It sounds | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
Machiavellian. That is the Sinn Fein agenda. Is there a any trick | :53:32. | :53:41. | |
in that? There is absolutely not. Every time Sinn Fein's -- Sinn Fein | :53:41. | :53:49. | |
puts a position forward, we are accused of being more hardline. | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
When I was in Belfast city Council actually established a good | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
relations initiative. How do we take initiatives to show that this | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
is an issue much more than flags? Thankfully the city Council has | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
moved on quite considerably. An investment plan agreed by all the | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
parties. The Council has not grasped the nettle yet. Basil's | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
party used to run the state. Now they have three councillors in | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
Belfast. Things have changed. What Billy's party needs to do and | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
Basil's former party needs to do, is sit down with all of the parties | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
and work out how we reflected symbols and emblems in this society | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
which reflect all of us. The issue of moral culture has gone. The | :54:35. | :54:45. | |
issue of domination is over. -- monoculture. What does parity of | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
esteem a mean? Would it not have made sense for a Sinn Fein to have | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
talked directly to Unionists and to loyalists, to try to prepare the | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
way for what is clearly a huge sea change in their perception of their | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
city? This debate has been going on in the city Council for at least | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
this particular -- at least this particular debate has been going on | :55:12. | :55:20. | |
for months. 40,000 leaflets were set out on a flight is used in | :55:20. | :55:30. | |
Belfast. There is no surprise in this discussion and debate. This | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
has been going on for months and for years? Listen. What I am saying | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
is that people need to recognise that this debate is not taking | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
place in a post complex society. People think we have dealt with the | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
past. We're not dealing with it. Because we have not dealt with the | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
past. Until we deal with the past we can appear with the future. | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
Would you allow us to enter a position where we can open up the | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
Pandora's box that is the past without having a repeat of last | :56:01. | :56:11. | |
:56:11. | :56:13. | ||
week's events? That is where we need to get there. Not only do we | :56:13. | :56:21. | |
need reconciliation. We need to ensure that people are involved and | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
they know what reconciliation means. That has to be done in working- | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
class areas irrespective of religion. A final point from Basil | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
McCrea. Designated days was the agreed policy of all of the pop -- | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
parties at Stormont. That is the way forward. It should be in all | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
councils, including the 11 in the west of the problems that do not | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
fly the flag. We should extend it. There is an issue about engaging. | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
But politics will solve these issues, not bringing people onto | :56:52. | :57:02. | |
:57:02. | :57:04. | ||
the streets. Now now look back of the week. | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
-- at the week. And your report into Pat Finnegan's murder said | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
there was no overarching state conspiracy, a finding described as | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
a sham by his family. Peter has been swept under the carpet without | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
any serious attempt to lift the lid on what has happened. The census | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
revealed the narrowing gap between the number of Catholics and | :57:27. | :57:33. | |
President -- Protestants and an unclear issue about national | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
identity. I am a father, son, brother, uncle. I'm also a | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
vegetarian. Basil McCrea criticised the Ulster Unionist position on the | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
flag at Stormont. We have been dragged through the gutter with | :57:47. | :57:54. | |
these protests. We do have to find a better political solution. Back | :57:54. | :58:04. | |
:58:04. | :58:20. | ||
We have not got time for the report on Enda Kenny. We will bring it to | :58:20. | :58:28. | |
you in the New Year. A quick response. The other big news of the | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
week was the report into the murder of Pat Finnegan. What should happen | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
now? There should be a public inquiry. Even beyond that what we | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
need is a process to deal with the truth. The fact there was | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
corruption at the heart of the security services. That the UDA was | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
basically the assassination wing of the Special Branch. I think of the | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
British Government thought this report would negate the argument | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
for a public inquiry they were badly mistaken. The scale of the | :58:59. | :59:09. | |
:59:09. | :59:11. | ||
level of collusion and activity... That will De Gea question for a | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
public inquiry. There does need to be more of the truth process. | :59:19. | :59:26. | |
you surprised at the sheer level of collusion uncovered? Yes I was. But | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
I will also put it in context. I think the gentle man opposite me to | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
understand. We were in a very bad place in those days. We have to | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
find a better way going forward than making cons like that. We need | :59:40. | :59:47. | |
a solution. The one thing about this is that people keep talking | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
about collusion. What be do not care about is collusion with the | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
Republicans in terms of people who acted as agents and were working on | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
the other side. We need to remember that we cannot afford to have | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
inquiries. Basil McCrea, when you return after the Christmas break | :00:06. | :00:10. |