17/07/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


17/07/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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LineFromTo

Morning folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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After Friday's failed coup, the crackdown in Turkey begins

:00:43.:00:46.

with thousands of arrests and threats of retribution,

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including the death penalty for rebels.

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What does the turmoil mean for Turkey's future,

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Nato and the fight against Islamic State?

:00:54.:01:00.

I wish you all the best and I am supporting you all the way. Do I get

:01:01.:01:06.

a hug? Jeremy Corbyn's confident

:01:07.:01:08.

that his fans will ensure he's re-elected - but he tells us

:01:09.:01:11.

that the rules of Labour's leadership election are unfair

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and the party's national executive She was a "Remainer"

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but Theresa May's promised to deliver on the voters' verdict

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and take us out of the EU - And in Northern Ireland: As we say

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goodbye to Theresa Villiers, her successor, James Brokenshire,

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outlines his priorities And we hear live from the First

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and Deputy First Ministers. Since we broadcast last week,

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a new Prime Minister, a new government, carnage in Nice

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and an attempted coup in Turkey. The unexpected is now

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commonplace, major news events But one thing that doesn't change

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here on Sunday mornings is that we always bring you the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott So Friday night's attempted army

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coup in Turkey failed and President Erdogan has moved

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ruthlessly to re-establish He says the coup was "a gift from

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God" because it gives him a reason A major clampdown on dissent is now

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widely anticipated, Let's get the latest

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from our Correspondent Is it underway? Is it expected to be

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pretty ruthless? Yes. It is underway. The crackdown has already

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taken place. Around 3000 soldiers have been detained including

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high-ranking generals and around 3000 judges have been dismissed from

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their posts. Many judges have also been detained. President Recep

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Tayyip Erdogan had already said that those behind the coup attempt would

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be paying a heavy price and that is what we are seeing at the moment.

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Many people think that the crackdown will further deepen. The government

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thinks that the movement of Fethullah Gulen is behind this

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attempt. That is something that Fethullah Gulen denies. He is a

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cleric based in Pennsylvania, Annex aisle who used to be on good terms

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with the government, and Mr Hird one himself. -- Mr Erdogan. Fethullah

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Gulen has said he has been involved includes himself, but he played no

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part in this one. Although the square would normally be packed with

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hundreds of tourists, the beauty of Istanbul being celebrated, but last

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night it was a different story, packed with hundreds of supporters

:04:09.:04:12.

of the government, chanting slogans like, God is great, in protest of

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the coup attempt. They adhered to the call coming from President

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Erdogan to take it out to the streets. They were jubilant because

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they felt empowered, in the part they played in suppressing the coup

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attempt. If there was a source of resistance to President is Erdogan,

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it was not the army, and I would suggest that he is going to take

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over the army, and he will have complete control. He was already

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pretty authoritarian before this happened. Is Turkey now in danger of

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a dictatorship? That is a question that many people asked. In Turkey

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and in the world. People who do not necessarily aligned themselves with

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the government policies were already cautious about Mr Erdogan's

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tendencies about getting more executive powers. It is no secret

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that President Erdogan once to change the parliamentary system in

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Turkey to a presidential system which would give him powers that no

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other president has seen before in Turkey. And now that he has managed

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to suppress this coup attempt, many people in Turkey fear that this

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could actually play into the hands of Mr Hird one, and turn the country

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into an alt. Chrissie, as you have said. -- way into the hands of Mr

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Erdogan. But on the other hand, Mr Erdogan's supporters are jubilant

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and they think that this was a victory of democracy. Yesterday the

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Turkish parliament convened an extraordinary session and all the

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opposition parties supported the government. The portrayed a stand

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against the coup attempt. The Prime Minister thanked them and said that

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this could be a threshold moment for Turkish politics but considering

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that Turkey is a polarised country and politics is divided, whether the

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government can bring everybody together after these 48 hours of

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trauma, it is a difficult task. They give very much. -- thank you very

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much. We're joined by the Foreign Affairs

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analyst, Tim Marshall. Let's look back at what happened

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here. The Turkish army, traditionally does not like Islamist

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leaning governments and has mounted three successful coups, turning

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Turkey to a more secular at two secular government. What was this, a

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gang that could not shoot straight or the keystone cops to make a bit

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of both. It was white, they did most of the right things but they did not

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have the depth above them. Above them, they had no support. They made

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two massive errors. They did not kill President Erdogan. That is the

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first thing you should do. I am not advocating it! It is a 101 guide to

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coups! But that is paragraph one, kill or at least capture the

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president. And shut down the media. They went to the state television,

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and in the 20th century, all the media was in one building and you

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would close it down. But they forgot that in the 21st-century, there was

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CNN Turkey still on a, and they did not close down social media, so Mr

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Erdogan, who hates social media and Twitter, pepper and --

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hypocritically gets onto Facebook and says to Turkey, get into the

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streets and because the coup is white and not deep, very soon the

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call to prayer goes out, and they know it is not the proper time, and

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it means going to the street. Within half an hour, the people outnumber

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the troops and the pendulum swings the other way. If Turkey faces a

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serious clamp-down, a move from authoritarianism to something

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bordering on dictator -- a dictatorship, this surely has huge

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obligations for Turkey's relations with America and the EU? And for the

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fight with Islamic State. This goes from being a domestic event to one

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with regional and geopolitical implications. And a Nato member.

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It's funny, we talk about him all the time, but as your correspondent

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said, this is a parliamentary republic, where traditionally the

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president is simply a figurehead but because he is so dominant and has

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total control of the HK party, all he had to do was switch from one job

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to the next. And all the power went with him because of the atmosphere

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at not because of the law. But he tried last year to move the powers

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legally into his office. He is closing down the media, he is now

:09:18.:09:21.

getting rid of the remnants in the Army that art not with him, and he

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has the support of the mosques and parliament. It is becoming a

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democratic dictatorship, a phrase I came up with for the loss of itch in

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Serbia, you bring two new radio stations out that broadcast so

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loudly that free speech is still allowed, but it cannot be heard.

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Remember the Civil War was the Kurds? That will just be utterly

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ruthless. This is a hugely historic event in Turkey's history because

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previous army coups have won and he will now take out the army as an

:10:15.:10:18.

independent force and it will become much more authoritarian, perhaps

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even autocratic. Where does this leave Western relations with Turkey?

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I think we can agree that it is not going to join the European Union any

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time soon so we can scotch that one. I think the ultimate dilemma must be

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for Nato. It is a security organisation but it is also an

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organisation defined by certain values and practices and if

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President Erdogan responds to the coup attempt by tightening freedoms

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further, by intervening against the judiciary and the Armed Forces

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further, then there must be a dilemma at some stage for Nato. I

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thought it might have been telling that three or four hours, I don't

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know if Tim agrees, for the US at least, if not Nato, to say anything

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about the coup, when they did they did not mention President Erdogan by

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name. I don't know if that suggests they know what side there bread is

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buttered on and they were waiting to see if the coup would succeed. But

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it is a huge event for the West and Turkey. The state was founded on

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secular ideals. The Armed Forces have always been seen as an

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invigilator of government. I am right in saying that the Turkish

:11:29.:11:31.

president has never been commander-in-chief, officially, in

:11:32.:11:34.

the way that a US president would be. Or a French president. Many

:11:35.:11:40.

people think that what he wants to do is create an executive style

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French presidency. You would still have a parliament and a Prime

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Minister but it would be the president that matters, rather than

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just being head of state. Turkey has been so pivotal, first of all in

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dealing with the migrant crisis in the eastern Mediterranean, with the

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situation in Syria, and Islamic State, and in the region as a

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regional superpower that balances Iran and even Saudi Arabia. We don't

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know where this is going to lead now. And has been talk for a long

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time about how it is massively in the interest of the West to have a

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stable Turkey. It has not been stable for some time and it will not

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be, even if this coup was a somewhat silly, ill thought through coup, it

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is clearly destabilising and will have consequences for a long time to

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come. I would be interesting to -- I would be interested to hear from Tim

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whether the EU has some leveraged because Turkey's desire to join it.

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That dynamic, although clearly not the agenda in spite of the farcical

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things said during the referendum campaign, that gives the EU some

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leveraged in reshaping what happens in Turkey. You wonder if that is

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even on his mind. It will not be. But the president has so many

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domestic fish to fry, and that might not be a very good metaphor given

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what he is about to do. If he is about to reintroduce the death

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penalty, it becomes very difficult to talk about Turkey being part of

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the EU. What do our diplomats do? It is in our interest to encourage the

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dreamer but it does not look compatible with the way that things

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are being carried out. Remarkably, these events in Gneiss had been

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overshadowed by Turkey and yet it only happened on Thursday night and

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this is Sunday morning. I suggest that the reaction in France to Nice

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is going to be very different. Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, there

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was great solidarity and it brought France together. I think this is

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different because people have had enough and it is different because

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there are clear security questions. No barrier on the promenade. We are

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told that there was a barrier when the military parades took place but

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it was removed after words, and already the politicians are ganging

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up on the government and this is becoming a major pre-election issue.

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That's right. The election is next year and Marine Le Pen is

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positioning herself very strongly with the National Front. There is a

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public divided on how to approach it and even if this is not Islamic

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State, and I am not convinced that it is, it happens in the context of

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Islamic State and of mass slaughter in the name of something. It is

:14:34.:14:39.

another chip away at our freedoms. And that is, in itself, a success.

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They are going to continue. I believe the rise of the right is far

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from Peking. And it plays absolutely into next year's presidential

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election. Going back from the presidential election, that all

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comes into what the EU is going to look like. We are in a state of

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flux. You are old enough, forgive me, Andrew, to know that everybody

:15:06.:15:08.

always says it has never been as bad as now and it is always untrue. But

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it is actually more corrugated than I have ever known it. And you may

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agree. I do agree. The Conservatives completed

:15:15.:15:19.

their leadership contest in a matter of days,

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Labour's has barely begun. There are now two candidates

:15:21.:15:23.

standing against Jeremy Corbyn - Angela Eagle and Owen Smith -

:15:24.:15:25.

but the Labour Leader has told us that the rules which exclude

:15:26.:15:29.

recently signed up members from voting in the contest

:15:30.:15:31.

are unfair and he wants the party's national executive

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to change them. Adam Fleming went for a walk

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in the park with Mr Corbyn. This is the lake that was built

:15:36.:15:42.

here in the 19th century, rather strange lake on the top

:15:43.:15:45.

of the hill. I went for a stroll

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round the Labour leader's favourite local beauty spot -

:15:49.:15:54.

Finsbury Park in north London. Do you have time to take a casual

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stroll with a journalist Yes, because doing things

:16:00.:16:02.

in a relaxed way is important, and doing other things is important,

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so going to a park, being in your However busy I am, my

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allotment is tended. It's in good order, we had a good

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crop of broad beans and we ate A slightly less relaxing

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part of his week. At a meeting of Labour's national

:16:27.:16:30.

executive on Tuesday, Jeremy Corbyn secured an automatic

:16:31.:16:32.

place in the leadership election. But he's not happy with new rules

:16:33.:16:35.

that say people who joined the party There's going to be some quite

:16:36.:16:39.

intense discussions over the next few days, I suspect,

:16:40.:16:45.

and I hope our party officials and National Executive will see

:16:46.:16:47.

sense on this and recognise that those people who have freely

:16:48.:16:51.

given their time and money to join the Labour Party should be welcomed

:16:52.:16:56.

in and given the opportunity to take part in this crucial debate,

:16:57.:16:59.

whichever way they decide to vote. I'm hoping there will be

:17:00.:17:01.

an understanding that it is simply not very fair to say to people that

:17:02.:17:08.

joined the party in the last six months, "sorry, your participation

:17:09.:17:11.

is no longer welcome because we are having

:17:12.:17:15.

a leadership contest." In the next few days,

:17:16.:17:20.

various Labour factions will be racing to sign people up

:17:21.:17:23.

as registered supporters, It costs ?25, not ?3

:17:24.:17:25.

like in the last contest. For people who can't afford the 25

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quid, what would you suggest If they can't afford the ?25,

:17:35.:17:37.

what they do? It seems to me the ?25 bar is quite

:17:38.:17:42.

high and not really reasonable. A lot of people have said to me,

:17:43.:17:47.

people stop me in the street saying, "I would love to vote in this

:17:48.:17:50.

election but I can't afford ?25." He is also disappointed that

:17:51.:17:56.

virtually all local party meetings have been suspended over

:17:57.:17:58.

fears of intimidation. I haven't stopped party meetings

:17:59.:18:03.

taking place and I actually I think party meetings

:18:04.:18:06.

should take place. Intimidation of any sort by anybody

:18:07.:18:10.

is absolutely wrong, but to cancel meetings

:18:11.:18:16.

because of the perception that intimidation might take place

:18:17.:18:19.

I think is a big mistake. The issues appear to be that

:18:20.:18:22.

where meetings have taken place, far more people have attended

:18:23.:18:26.

than were expected and so there has been issues about how people

:18:27.:18:29.

can get in the room, whereas there's a fairly

:18:30.:18:31.

simple answer to that - Talking of meetings,

:18:32.:18:34.

who was he with when Theresa May was taking over as Prime Minister

:18:35.:18:41.

earlier this week? I was with an all-party group,

:18:42.:18:46.

including Conservatives, talking to two of the Miami five

:18:47.:18:48.

who had been in prison in Miami and were released

:18:49.:18:50.

by the court decisions of USA and the new rapprochement with Cuba

:18:51.:18:53.

and actually welcoming the fact there had been an agreement

:18:54.:18:56.

reached in Cuba. I was actually with Conservatives

:18:57.:19:03.

and Labour people. I was there for about 20 minutes,

:19:04.:19:07.

then I went back to my office And so you felt that was a good use

:19:08.:19:10.

of your time at that point when the country was transitioning

:19:11.:19:15.

from one Prime Minister to another? Informing yourself by listening

:19:16.:19:18.

to people from all kinds of walks This morning I was on the phone

:19:19.:19:23.

to friends in Istanbul and Ankara And so when an issue happens

:19:24.:19:28.

anywhere in the world, obviously I read all the briefings

:19:29.:19:36.

that I've been given, obviously I follow the news

:19:37.:19:38.

and information, but also I quite often know people in different

:19:39.:19:41.

places around the world so I call Can I get a hug

:19:42.:19:44.

for that? He also seems to know a lot

:19:45.:19:49.

of people in this park. What do you think about

:19:50.:19:58.

Angela Eagle and Owen Smith I have been trying to unregister

:19:59.:20:00.

from the Green Party so that I can register with the Labour Party

:20:01.:20:15.

so that I can support you. We were walking round

:20:16.:20:17.

with Jeremy Corbyn, What did you shout

:20:18.:20:22.

out when you saw him? I don't know what I said,

:20:23.:20:25.

something awful like... Something like "you've

:20:26.:20:28.

ruined the Labour Party". Something like, "step aside and stop

:20:29.:20:33.

ruining the Labour Party," I guess. And I couldn't let Jeremy go

:20:34.:20:36.

without introducing him to the craze sweeping the nation,

:20:37.:20:41.

Pokemon Go. He didn't seem that bothered

:20:42.:20:44.

but then he's playing a much bigger game, trying to hold onto his job,

:20:45.:20:47.

and that's no walk in the park. Our work this morning has not

:20:48.:20:51.

been in vain. And a longer version of that

:20:52.:20:56.

interview with Jeremy Corbyn We're joined now from Salford

:20:57.:20:59.

though by the Shadow Education Secretary,

:21:00.:21:02.

Angela Rayner. Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

:21:03.:21:14.

Corbyn wants to allow people who joined in the last six months of

:21:15.:21:20.

your party to vote, he thinks the ?25 fee is too high. Isn't it just

:21:21.:21:25.

typical of the chaos Labour is now in that you are holding a leadership

:21:26.:21:29.

contest before you have agreed rules? Good morning, I think it's

:21:30.:21:35.

important we recognise the Labour Party is transformed with now over

:21:36.:21:39.

half a million members joined, which is fantastic. We are the largest

:21:40.:21:43.

democratic social party across Europe. For me it is about

:21:44.:21:49.

democracy. I asked about the rules, should you be having a contest

:21:50.:21:53.

before you have agreed rules? The rules were decided at the NEC

:21:54.:21:59.

meeting which lasted seven hours, quite a lengthy marathon... You want

:22:00.:22:05.

to change them? People need to reflect upon the current situation

:22:06.:22:10.

and there has been outrage. 130,000 people have joined since the

:22:11.:22:14.

referendum, and we have got to give them the opportunity to have their

:22:15.:22:20.

voice heard. Have these 130,000 that joined after the referendum been

:22:21.:22:27.

properly vetted? That is a situation that the NEC and our party has got

:22:28.:22:31.

to approve and go through. We did it last time, we had a huge number of

:22:32.:22:36.

people join our party recently. Have that number been vetted or not? You

:22:37.:22:45.

have got to allow democracy. What we do is we ensure we get more people,

:22:46.:22:50.

more staff, more ability to deal with that issue because democracy is

:22:51.:22:56.

important, it is enshrined. Hold on, you are starting the leadership

:22:57.:22:59.

campaign and you still haven't vetted those who may be allowed to

:23:00.:23:05.

vote, that's what I mean by chaos, if not fast. I don't think it's

:23:06.:23:08.

chaotic to have over half a million people join our party and want to

:23:09.:23:16.

have a say, it is a positive step. It is if you cannot vet them come

:23:17.:23:19.

you don't know if they are members of the Socialist workers party, the

:23:20.:23:22.

Greens, the Communists, the National front, the Conservatives. You have

:23:23.:23:30.

no idea. We have 130,000 people who have joined in the last three weeks,

:23:31.:23:36.

which the Conservative Party have around 150,000 members per se. We

:23:37.:23:39.

have over half a million members so we are doing a great job. The

:23:40.:23:44.

Trotskyists and other groups you are suggesting may be trying to join our

:23:45.:23:48.

party, they are not in the great numbers we see at the moment. It is

:23:49.:23:52.

important to give people a say about the future of our country and party.

:23:53.:23:59.

I love democracy. Will you definitely be voting for Mr Corbyn

:24:00.:24:02.

this time because you didn't last time. No, I supported Andy Burnham

:24:03.:24:08.

last time, but I recognise Jeremy Corbyn had a significant mandate to

:24:09.:24:12.

lead our party. I don't think it's time to have a leadership contest. I

:24:13.:24:17.

will not be nominating another candidate, I will be recognising our

:24:18.:24:22.

democratically elected leader. I asked who you will be voting for. I

:24:23.:24:32.

will be supporting -- our democratically elected leader. Can

:24:33.:24:40.

you say the words, I will vote for Jeremy Corbyn? I have made it clear

:24:41.:24:46.

what my position is, and that's about democracy and our members

:24:47.:24:54.

making... Are you or aren't you? I have told you I will be supporting

:24:55.:24:59.

our democratically elected leader of our party. I want to hold the

:25:00.:25:03.

Government to account, we have a bill coming up on Tuesday... I'm

:25:04.:25:10.

puzzled, are you voting for Mr Corbyn? Your viewers want to see us

:25:11.:25:15.

holding this Government to account. I have tried to answer your question

:25:16.:25:20.

but you don't want to listen to my answer. Could you name the person

:25:21.:25:25.

you will be voting for in this election? I will be listening to our

:25:26.:25:29.

membership and in the meantime holding the Government to account

:25:30.:25:34.

and supporting our democratically elected leader of our party, which

:25:35.:25:40.

is Jeremy Corbyn. A new poll shows Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn 58%

:25:41.:25:47.

to 19, on who would make the better Prime Minister. It shows 40% of

:25:48.:25:51.

Labour voters think Theresa May would make a better Prime Minister.

:25:52.:25:57.

Why are you backing, if you are, I'm still not clear, why are you backing

:25:58.:26:03.

a loser? Our party is seen as quite divided and divided parties never

:26:04.:26:09.

win elections. We don't disagree on policy points, we have to get our

:26:10.:26:12.

policy points across to the electorate and then they will

:26:13.:26:16.

decide. Theresa May has the challenge of bringing her

:26:17.:26:20.

Conservative Party together. There was no competition, no democracy

:26:21.:26:23.

within the Conservative Party in terms of who they wanted as leader.

:26:24.:26:28.

She has a job to do because the country has never been more divided

:26:29.:26:32.

than it is now and that's directly as a result of the Conservatives.

:26:33.:26:40.

You all seem to have a job to do. Speaking of Mrs May, is the Labour

:26:41.:26:46.

Party now the nasty party? No, Theresa May had it right, the

:26:47.:26:50.

Conservatives continue to be so. They are cutting education funding

:26:51.:26:55.

by up to 8% in this Parliament, they want to prioritise the NHS and have

:26:56.:27:00.

already been creeping that in. They are not on the side of ordinary

:27:01.:27:05.

people in this country. Theresa May has said she wants the Conservatives

:27:06.:27:09.

to be a party for everybody and working people across the country.

:27:10.:27:13.

Now her words have to be matched by actions. Let me ask you this about

:27:14.:27:20.

Labour. Meetings of constituency Labour parties have been suspended

:27:21.:27:26.

from fear of intimidation. There are death threats and violence, a brick

:27:27.:27:31.

thrown through the window of the office block where Angela Eagle's

:27:32.:27:37.

constituency is housed. Police have had to investigate. I ask again, is

:27:38.:27:42.

it not Labour that is the nasty party? I think any act of abuse and

:27:43.:27:47.

intimidation is disgusting in politics and many politicians from

:27:48.:27:50.

all sides of the house have had death threats and threats of

:27:51.:27:54.

violence, and that has got to be stamped out of a modern democracy.

:27:55.:27:58.

Why is it in the Labour Party this is happening? It happens across the

:27:59.:28:04.

spectrum in politics and it is disgusting. But it cannot stop

:28:05.:28:09.

democracy either, we have got to continue to uphold and enshrined our

:28:10.:28:12.

democracy in everything we do because it is important. It means a

:28:13.:28:16.

lot to a lot of people but you cannot win on democracy by abusing,

:28:17.:28:20.

threatening and intimidating the other side of the argument. You have

:28:21.:28:24.

got to have a constructive debate and people have got to have their

:28:25.:28:30.

democratic right to vote. Thanks for being with us this morning.

:28:31.:28:33.

Now, despite signing up to David Cameron's Remain strategy,

:28:34.:28:35.

our new Prime Minister has put navigating the UK's departure

:28:36.:28:37.

from the EU and retaining the union at the centre

:28:38.:28:40.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general

:28:41.:28:43.

The appointment of three key Cabinet positions to Brexiteers - Boris

:28:44.:28:46.

Johnson, David Davis, and Liam Fox - reflects this.

:28:47.:28:48.

A few days before his appointment, the Brexit Secretary set

:28:49.:28:51.

out how he'd proceed with separation from the EU.

:28:52.:28:55.

He said triggering new trade talks were a

:28:56.:28:57.

priority and wanted the UK to negotiate free-trade deals with

:28:58.:29:00.

Mr Davis believes the UK should not budge on control of our borders, but

:29:01.:29:08.

the tariff-free access to the EU single market is still his preferred

:29:09.:29:11.

The Brexit Secretary acknowledged that talks with the

:29:12.:29:17.

Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Ireland governments

:29:18.:29:18.

And Theresa May made the first step on Thursday, telling

:29:19.:29:23.

Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh that she is willing to listen

:29:24.:29:26.

to options on Scotland's future relationship

:29:27.:29:27.

Mrs May said Britain would not rush into

:29:28.:29:33.

Brexit negotiations and would need some time to prepare.

:29:34.:29:36.

However, Mr Davis said Article 50 should be

:29:37.:29:38.

and mean Britain would be out of the EU by January

:29:39.:29:46.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general

:29:47.:29:53.

Dominic Grieve, who campaigned for Remain, and the Labour MP

:29:54.:29:55.

who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, Gisela Stewart.

:29:56.:29:58.

We are joined by Dominic Grieve and the chairman of the boat Leave

:29:59.:30:08.

campaign, Gisela Stuart. -- Vote Leave. As Theresa May delivered? I

:30:09.:30:17.

think she has. I think it was important that you made clear that

:30:18.:30:20.

Brexit meant Brexit. We had to make a clear that there was no second

:30:21.:30:27.

referendum in the offering. That required certainty for the country.

:30:28.:30:32.

Are you satisfied with that? I am completely satisfied with her

:30:33.:30:36.

approach, yes. It is clear that the vote, as expressed in the

:30:37.:30:39.

referendum, has to be respected. We have to take forward a programme for

:30:40.:30:43.

removing the United Kingdom from the EU. Really that is going to be an

:30:44.:30:48.

immensely comported process and it also carries with it economic risks,

:30:49.:30:53.

certainly in the short to medium term. I am also open-minded as to

:30:54.:30:58.

how one best does that. I think we're going to have to respond to

:30:59.:31:03.

events as well as trying to shape them. We have seen a blueprint

:31:04.:31:06.

published by my friend and colleague, David Davis, about

:31:07.:31:14.

Britain's outside the EU. I expect that 99.9% of conservatives would

:31:15.:31:18.

subscribe to that but getting to it is more congregated. We need to

:31:19.:31:22.

unpick this bit by bit. When do we trigger article 50? You need to go

:31:23.:31:29.

in reverse, like a reverse accession process. The most important thing is

:31:30.:31:35.

trade negotiations. As I understand that you cannot have a bilateral

:31:36.:31:42.

agreement unless you have notified Article 50. But you must have some

:31:43.:31:48.

idea of the time? The sooner the better. When do you think we should

:31:49.:31:53.

trigger article 50. I think we should trigger at when there is some

:31:54.:31:57.

clarity as to what the scope of the negotiations that will follow will

:31:58.:32:02.

be. This is the first big hurdle. Clearly if our European partners do

:32:03.:32:06.

not want to negotiate with us at all, even informally, prior to

:32:07.:32:11.

triggering Article 50, that might presents difficulties but from the

:32:12.:32:14.

point of view of the Prime Minister, she will make up her own mind.

:32:15.:32:18.

Actually getting some clear idea of what it is that the United Kingdom

:32:19.:32:22.

is seeking in terms of a future relationship is going to very

:32:23.:32:27.

important. And I think it is impossible to give a particular time

:32:28.:32:32.

frame. But I agree with Gisela Stuart. But the time frame has to

:32:33.:32:36.

work and it has to be done in good time for the 2020 election, so you

:32:37.:32:41.

can work back from that. I think you can, but I think that she needs, the

:32:42.:32:45.

Prime Minister needs to be given maximum flexibility about this

:32:46.:32:48.

because boxing herself in to how she goes about what is going to be one

:32:49.:32:52.

of the most difficult political transformations this country has

:32:53.:32:55.

gone through in modern times, I think that requires pragmatism. Does

:32:56.:32:59.

it require a vote of Parliament to trigger Article 50? Not necessarily.

:33:00.:33:05.

Let's come back to something. This is not just about our relationship

:33:06.:33:09.

with the EU, it is our relationship with the rest of the world.

:33:10.:33:17.

Triggering Article 50 has also been interpreted into how we talk with

:33:18.:33:21.

other countries. But we can talk with them without concluding deals?

:33:22.:33:25.

But in terms of negotiations, there comes a point that to make it

:33:26.:33:29.

meaningful, you have to trigger it. But I want to ask you, do we need a

:33:30.:33:35.

vote in parliament to trigger Article 50? Undoubtedly. It is a

:33:36.:33:42.

matter of convention. The idea that a government could take a decision

:33:43.:33:45.

of such massive importance to the United Kingdom without Parliamentary

:33:46.:33:49.

approval, it seems to me to be extremely far-fetched. It is not

:33:50.:33:53.

about law. It is about convention and reality. Do you agree? I can see

:33:54.:33:59.

the arguments from both sides but I don't think you absolutely have to

:34:00.:34:03.

do it. We have not got a lot of time, would you vote for triggering

:34:04.:34:07.

Article 50? Yes. I have made it quite clear that the result of the

:34:08.:34:13.

referendum must mean that we have to be willing to embark on the process.

:34:14.:34:18.

I put in one rider to that which is that it seems to me that any

:34:19.:34:22.

sensible decision has to be made at the time you make it. But that is

:34:23.:34:26.

not a suggestion that I am going to suddenly decide not to support

:34:27.:34:30.

triggering Article 50, but triggering Article 50 is an

:34:31.:34:33.

important political step to withdraw from the EU. One has to keep that in

:34:34.:34:38.

mind. Do you worry that people like Dominic Grieve are teeing themselves

:34:39.:34:42.

up to call for a second referendum on the nature of the deal we will

:34:43.:34:48.

do? I do. I think if there is one thing the European Union is very

:34:49.:34:51.

good at, it is that when political necessity is in the interest of both

:34:52.:34:56.

sides, they are capable of rewriting the rules. So the European Union

:34:57.:35:00.

itself has to look at the problems it faces, and then at what the best

:35:01.:35:07.

deal is. There is a danger that those who do not like the outcome of

:35:08.:35:09.

the referendum get themselves hooked on Article 50, rather than saying

:35:10.:35:14.

that there is a new reality out there and we need to deal with that

:35:15.:35:18.

in the interests of the United Kingdom. If you could bring it

:35:19.:35:21.

about, you would have a second referendum, wouldn't you? Not

:35:22.:35:26.

necessarily. The justification for having a second referendum is if the

:35:27.:35:30.

circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because

:35:31.:35:32.

circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because there is

:35:33.:35:34.

some legitimate question to put to the electorate. I am very wary of

:35:35.:35:39.

circumscribing oneself. The referendum is no different from the

:35:40.:35:42.

general election in this sense. It is a statement at the time of what

:35:43.:35:46.

people want in terms of the way policy is taken forward. If people's

:35:47.:35:50.

opinions change, it would be extraordinary. And I think the only

:35:51.:35:55.

way you can judge that is by looking and listening to what people are

:35:56.:36:00.

saying to you. Opinion polls can measure it. Like the opinion polls

:36:01.:36:06.

that told you your site was going to win the referendum? I am not sure I

:36:07.:36:11.

ever believe those polls. But they did. If you take a decision on the

:36:12.:36:18.

base of those polls... But what is the question that one might be

:36:19.:36:22.

asking. What the public have asked us to do is quite clear. They have

:36:23.:36:32.

given, by a majority of 1.2 million people, not insubstantial, they have

:36:33.:36:36.

said they want a fundamental change to the UK's relationship with the EU

:36:37.:36:40.

and they see that relationship as being one where we are outside of

:36:41.:36:45.

it. I have to respect that. And we have not got much time so I am going

:36:46.:36:49.

to interrupt. You have had a good save. Gisela Stuart, here is the

:36:50.:36:54.

point. There is a lot of people on the Labour side listening to Dominic

:36:55.:36:58.

Grieve and nodding their heads. Owen Smith, one of the leadership

:36:59.:37:03.

contenders, he basically wants a second referendum, and you are going

:37:04.:37:06.

to have to start gearing up for that. Do you fear that this could be

:37:07.:37:10.

foisted upon you? I think it would be a disastrous step because both

:37:11.:37:14.

political parties need to search why they were so out of step with the

:37:15.:37:18.

electorate, particularly the Labour Party. It is a Parliamentary

:37:19.:37:22.

democracy were we get elected to do a job and that is to either hold the

:37:23.:37:25.

government to account or to be the government. We have asked them and

:37:26.:37:30.

they have reflected, in large numbers, they have said that we want

:37:31.:37:34.

to leave. And they expect us to get on with the job. I am sorry to rush

:37:35.:37:36.

you but we have been short of time. It's just gone 11.35,

:37:37.:37:39.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:40.:37:41.

in Scotland and Wales, who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland

:37:42.:37:44.

and Sunday Politics Wales. Coming up here in 20

:37:45.:37:47.

minutes, the Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday

:37:48.:37:49.

Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:37:50.:37:57.

in Northern Ireland. Theresa May has shown the door

:37:58.:38:00.

to Theresa Villiers, and now her successor as Secretary

:38:01.:38:03.

of State outlines his vision I think the most important thing now

:38:04.:38:19.

is that we do move on with that best deal that is possible for Northern

:38:20.:38:20.

Ireland and the rest of the UK. Also this morning, at the end

:38:21.:38:23.

of a tumultuous political term, we talk to the First Minister

:38:24.:38:25.

and the Deputy First Minister to hear their thoughts

:38:26.:38:28.

on the challenges ahead. And with their take on it all,

:38:29.:38:30.

I'm joined by journalists The Cabinet cull by

:38:31.:38:32.

the new Prime Minister, Theresa May, saw her namesake,

:38:33.:38:41.

Theresa Villiers, replaced by James Brokenshire

:38:42.:38:44.

as Secretary of State. The South East London MP

:38:45.:38:47.

faces a host of issues, many of them historical,

:38:48.:38:50.

but also - and a much more recent development -

:38:51.:38:52.

the consequences of last month's vote to leave the EU,

:38:53.:38:55.

and the implications of that So when I spoke to Mr Brokenshire

:38:56.:38:58.

on Friday, I began by asking him why he thinks he was given

:38:59.:39:04.

the Northern Ireland job. I think Theresa Villiers did an

:39:05.:39:16.

incredible job as Secretary of State firms or referred, she has a strong

:39:17.:39:21.

legacy of issues she took forward, creating great stability and

:39:22.:39:26.

advocating security and prosperity. I want to continue with that work,

:39:27.:39:32.

respecting the Belfast Agreement and making progress in relation to the

:39:33.:39:36.

Stormont House Agreement and fresh start, and I look forward to working

:39:37.:39:42.

with everyone across communities, reaching out and listening and

:39:43.:39:46.

taking the best outcome for Northern Ireland. You were a supporter of the

:39:47.:39:51.

Remain campaign. Do you think that is why you were appointed? You can

:39:52.:39:58.

see from my approach that I believe in stability, security and

:39:59.:40:03.

prosperity. They are the guiding factors that have taken me forward

:40:04.:40:08.

and it is that approach I intend to bring in my new role. I have

:40:09.:40:13.

experienced from my time dealing with counterterrorism but it is a

:40:14.:40:19.

real opportunity we have here. We have had the outcome of the

:40:20.:40:24.

referendum, I campaigned for remains but we now need to get on and chat

:40:25.:40:29.

that positive course for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK as we

:40:30.:40:37.

look to that future outside the EU. The two largest parties here, the

:40:38.:40:41.

DUP and Sinn Fein, hold different editions on Brexit. How do you hope

:40:42.:40:49.

to square that circle? It's important I listen carefully and

:40:50.:40:52.

work with all communities in Northern Ireland, but the UK public

:40:53.:40:56.

have sent a clear message they want to see the UK outside the EU. It is

:40:57.:41:03.

important we get on with that task and I will provide a clear voice for

:41:04.:41:08.

Northern Ireland within the government to set out how we get the

:41:09.:41:12.

best possible outcome, working with the Executive. I've spoken to the

:41:13.:41:18.

First Minister and Deputy First Minister and I want to continue

:41:19.:41:21.

those discussions as we chart the course. But the challenge for you is

:41:22.:41:28.

that 56% of people in Northern Ireland but to remain, and that's a

:41:29.:41:32.

different result from the picture across the UK. I campaigned for

:41:33.:41:39.

Remain but equally I think we need to respect that overall picture

:41:40.:41:43.

that's been presented from the UK. It's important now that we get on

:41:44.:41:48.

with that task, having been given that message, to ensure we get the

:41:49.:41:55.

best possible outcome. I view this as a positive way to approach this,

:41:56.:42:00.

to make sure we look at those opportunities for trade, injuring

:42:01.:42:05.

with the two that positive future but unconscious of what this means

:42:06.:42:10.

for the border. I've had conversations with Frances

:42:11.:42:14.

Fitzgerald, the Irish Interior Minister, to emphasise the need for

:42:15.:42:19.

close collaboration so we can ensure we do not see the return of orders

:42:20.:42:25.

in place. I believe there's a strong commitment from both to achieve that

:42:26.:42:29.

and that is a priority item I will take forward. Martin McGuinness says

:42:30.:42:34.

he told the Prime Minister yesterday he want to see the democratically

:42:35.:42:39.

expressed will of the people here protected I find it away to enable

:42:40.:42:45.

Northern Ireland to stay in the EU. Is that up for discussion? The

:42:46.:42:52.

Northern Irish people have given a view as part of the UK perspective

:42:53.:42:56.

on the referendum and the UK as a whole have underlined a view that we

:42:57.:43:01.

have that future for the UK outside the EU. I think rather than inject

:43:02.:43:08.

instability and uncertainty, we now need to complement and ensure we

:43:09.:43:14.

drive that positive vision for the future and that is the role I want

:43:15.:43:19.

to play, yes, working with all communities, listening but

:43:20.:43:23.

delivering on that objective so we can to the future with that positive

:43:24.:43:28.

sense of what we can and will be outside the EU. But the difficulty

:43:29.:43:34.

is that we do not have certainty on any of these issues. Local optician

:43:35.:43:41.

's sake their number 130 is to represent the best interests of

:43:42.:43:44.

their constituents and they will in mind that the new Prime Minister

:43:45.:43:48.

came to Northern Ireland to campaign three weeks ago and could not have

:43:49.:43:54.

been clearer, the interests of Northern Ireland would be best

:43:55.:44:00.

served by remaining in the EU. There is no point dwelling on the campaign

:44:01.:44:05.

of the past. But it is for people in Northern Ireland because that is

:44:06.:44:09.

what best represents people here. The most important thing is that we

:44:10.:44:15.

do move on with that best deal that is possible for Northern Ireland and

:44:16.:44:21.

the rest of the UK. That is what we need to put our focus on because we

:44:22.:44:24.

will look towards those negotiations, toward the powers we

:44:25.:44:30.

will need to take back from the EU and there will be clear issues from

:44:31.:44:34.

Northern Ireland in relation to this, which is why the role I have

:44:35.:44:39.

now I see as important in advocating at the heart of government in terms

:44:40.:44:45.

of the best interests of Northern Ireland but I will work closely with

:44:46.:44:50.

the Executive and leaders and politicians from across Northern

:44:51.:44:53.

Ireland as we take that forward. You mentioned the border. Before the

:44:54.:44:58.

referendum, to Theresa May said in her view there would have to be

:44:59.:45:03.

harder border controls in the event of a Brexit vote. Is she right about

:45:04.:45:10.

that? It is important we maintained the common travel area, which

:45:11.:45:14.

existed before the UK entered what was then the common market, and that

:45:15.:45:20.

is a priority, that we do not seem border controls. There is a strong

:45:21.:45:25.

commitment from the Irish government and ourselves to see that doesn't

:45:26.:45:31.

happen but that has to be an important priority item for me and I

:45:32.:45:36.

have had discussions with the Irish government to take this forward to

:45:37.:45:41.

see that does not happen. We're talking about the free movement of

:45:42.:45:47.

people, what about customs and trade because the Irish government is

:45:48.:45:49.

concerned there may need to be border controls as far as that is

:45:50.:45:56.

concerned? That is damaging for the Republic's economy. Yes, it is also

:45:57.:46:01.

about business and trade, ensuring we have that prosperity agenda and

:46:02.:46:09.

it is these issues that we will need to have conversations with the Irish

:46:10.:46:13.

government as well as the European Commission and member states, and

:46:14.:46:19.

it's absolutely why it matters that we are taking the clear approach we

:46:20.:46:22.

are in wanting to protect that Common travel area not just for

:46:23.:46:28.

people but also goods and services, and it is those issues I will be

:46:29.:46:34.

taking forward. You mentioned your involvement as a Home Office

:46:35.:46:37.

minister with counterterrorism. What is your assessment of the incident

:46:38.:46:43.

terrorist threat here in Northern Ireland and across the rest of the

:46:44.:46:49.

UK? We have a severe level of threat and one of the priority items that I

:46:50.:46:55.

am taking forward is to work with the PSNI to ensure that we are

:46:56.:47:01.

maintaining that position of safety and security. It was an important

:47:02.:47:08.

part of the work of my predecessor, continuing the work and ensuring we

:47:09.:47:14.

have those issues of security at the heart of our agenda, but

:47:15.:47:19.

acknowledging the legacy issues and that is something I am conscious of

:47:20.:47:24.

in terms equally of working with survivors and victims and taking

:47:25.:47:29.

forward those important aspects of the Stormont House Agreement and

:47:30.:47:34.

continuing to see that as a priority item. That item has proved an

:47:35.:47:42.

obstinate sticking point for a long time and several of your successors

:47:43.:47:46.

have failed to deal with it. It keeps being kicked into the long

:47:47.:47:50.

grass. What makes you believe you will sort it out? I do want to, as a

:47:51.:47:58.

priority, to meet survivors and Vic 's, to see this as an essential

:47:59.:48:04.

aspect of the work I need to take forward as Secretary of State. There

:48:05.:48:10.

has been progress made under the agreements but we need to move this

:48:11.:48:17.

forward, and all I would say is I recognise those legacy issues of the

:48:18.:48:21.

past very clearly and that is a priority item for me. Sinn Fein said

:48:22.:48:29.

yesterday there is no need for a Northern Ireland Secretary of state

:48:30.:48:31.

anymore, the role should be abolished. You think you might be

:48:32.:48:38.

the last one to pull the job? With all these issues arising from the

:48:39.:48:42.

referendum, from the security agenda, it now matters into the

:48:43.:48:48.

future as well as having a Secretary of State at the heart of the UK

:48:49.:48:53.

armoured to ensure those issues in Northern Ireland are championed and

:48:54.:48:58.

respected and ensure we get that best possible future deal for

:48:59.:49:01.

Northern Ireland to drive bought the future prosperity and I'm looking

:49:02.:49:06.

forward to getting out and meeting people and taking that issue

:49:07.:49:12.

forward, and being that voice at the heart of government to get that

:49:13.:49:15.

wasn't a version which I'm determined to do.

:49:16.:49:16.

The new Secretary of State, James Brokenshire.

:49:17.:49:18.

Allison, what do you make of what he had to say? He said a lot of words

:49:19.:49:31.

but not a lot of detail, and that is to separate secretary of States who

:49:32.:49:34.

have pushed on the movement of goods across the border but we are unable

:49:35.:49:40.

to get any details of how it will happen. He said the Common travel

:49:41.:49:45.

area would remain but it's impossible for the transportation of

:49:46.:49:49.

goods across the border to remain as it is one part of Ireland will still

:49:50.:49:55.

be in the EU and one part down, and the Irish Vermont will have to

:49:56.:49:59.

answer to other EU member states, who will not allow things to stay as

:50:00.:50:04.

they are. He doesn't have details as to how that will work and we are now

:50:05.:50:10.

further on than we were a couple of months ago. There are still a lot of

:50:11.:50:17.

unknowns. Yes, a lot of it was fairly land, he could be speaking

:50:18.:50:21.

very cautiously but one disadvantage he has is that DUP and Sinn Fein

:50:22.:50:27.

were on different sides of the Brexit debate, but in his favour the

:50:28.:50:34.

five big parties of government for all in favour of not having a hard

:50:35.:50:38.

border, Sinn Fein and the DUP have wanted. My instinct remains that

:50:39.:50:45.

eight deal will be phoned between London and Dublin. But it is not

:50:46.:50:51.

just about London and Dublin but about Brussels, this will not be a

:50:52.:50:59.

bilateral deal. Except that but like gut instinct is that they need to

:51:00.:51:03.

keep that political process going and I think therefore find a way and

:51:04.:51:08.

Brussels will not want to interfere too much and will find a way of

:51:09.:51:14.

saying they can live with that. What you think nationalists will make of

:51:15.:51:19.

James Brokenshire being given the job? Is a bit of an unknown and I

:51:20.:51:26.

think he was given the job for being a supporter of the Theresa May end

:51:27.:51:31.

the campaign, you could see in the/ of the Cabinet she rewarded a lot of

:51:32.:51:37.

people who had been loyal to her, he doesn't have a hardback that follow

:51:38.:51:41.

in that the last Secretary of State was pretty hands-off so he is not

:51:42.:51:46.

having to follow on from a great act.

:51:47.:52:00.

Algae talking to Martin McGuinness any moment but first Arlene Foster

:52:01.:52:03.

joins me live from her constituency. Do you think James Brokenshire the

:52:04.:52:22.

clicky man you can do business with? I do want to pay tribute to Theresa

:52:23.:52:26.

Villiers for the work she has been involved in here in Northern

:52:27.:52:27.

Ireland. We had a difficult involved in here in Northern

:52:28.:52:36.

available to us when we needed to speak with her. She will look back

:52:37.:52:39.

with some satisfaction at her tenure in Northern Ireland, she didn't know

:52:40.:52:42.

very much about Northern Ireland when she came over here but she

:52:43.:52:47.

reads having been very much abreast of the issues here and I told her on

:52:48.:52:51.

Thursday that she will always be welcome here in Northern Ireland. I

:52:52.:52:55.

am very much looking forward to working with James Brokenshire. He

:52:56.:52:59.

has an intimate knowledge of the security situation here in Northern

:53:00.:53:02.

Ireland and indeed from an immigration point of view that will

:53:03.:53:05.

be helpful in relation to dealing with issues like the Common travel

:53:06.:53:09.

area and look forward to taking matters forward with him. He was a

:53:10.:53:14.

remain campaigner and Theresa May was also a Remain campaigner. Does

:53:15.:53:18.

that make you uncomfortable, and easy I'm nervous about them being

:53:19.:53:22.

responsible for delivering Brexit in Northern Ireland? No, not at all

:53:23.:53:28.

because both the Prime Minister and our new Secretary of State has made

:53:29.:53:31.

it very clear that they respected the view of the UK people and they

:53:32.:53:36.

intend to take that forward and indeed the Prime Minister has

:53:37.:53:41.

appointed people who were on the EU exit side of the debate into very

:53:42.:53:45.

significant roles and I am looking forward to having a television --

:53:46.:53:50.

telephone conversation with David Davies in terms of how we take

:53:51.:53:55.

matters forward for Northern Ireland and Liam Fox as well in relation to

:53:56.:53:58.

international trade. I am not nervous at all and actually very

:53:59.:54:03.

reassured at the words from may arrange the union and the importance

:54:04.:54:07.

of two places in the United Kingdom as a whole and I look forward to

:54:08.:54:12.

helping her to make sure that that vision is sustained because I just

:54:13.:54:15.

don't care about Northern Ireland, I care about the whole of the union

:54:16.:54:19.

and I was very pleased to hear her say the same. As we know, 56% of

:54:20.:54:25.

people in Northern Ireland voted to Remain. Martin McGuinness said at

:54:26.:54:29.

the end of last week, he told the new Prime Minister his view remains

:54:30.:54:32.

that the best interest of people here would be served by finding a

:54:33.:54:37.

place for this to remain part of the EU. You don't want that happened but

:54:38.:54:41.

the reality is, that argument is going to be brought forward time and

:54:42.:54:45.

again by people in discussions over the months ahead. Yes, the argument

:54:46.:54:51.

will be brought forward but the reality is that we are part of the

:54:52.:54:56.

UK as a member state and that member state has decided by a referendum by

:54:57.:55:00.

all those people to leave the EU. It doesn't mean that we're leaving

:55:01.:55:04.

Europe, it means that we are leading the institutions of the European

:55:05.:55:08.

Union. My job and Martin McGuinness is to get the best you'll possible

:55:09.:55:11.

for all of the people of Northern Ireland and that's what I'm

:55:12.:55:14.

determined to do. Certainly, it is something that I'm very focused on

:55:15.:55:18.

doing. We have a meeting next week to review the work has been carried

:55:19.:55:22.

out by our officials and is something we will continue to do

:55:23.:55:26.

over the summer. How does the executive come position on this

:55:27.:55:32.

because you and Martin McGuinness do not speak with the one voice on this

:55:33.:55:36.

issue. When James Brokenshire talk about dealing with this issue and

:55:37.:55:41.

coming to an arrangement with the executive, the executive is

:55:42.:55:44.

fundamentally divided on the matter? It's not the first time that we have

:55:45.:55:49.

taken different viewpoints on particular issues but then when we

:55:50.:55:54.

are faced with having to deal with the reality of the situation, we

:55:55.:55:57.

deal with that situation and I have no doubt we will find a position for

:55:58.:56:02.

Northern Ireland as well. I am certainly focused on the fact that I

:56:03.:56:06.

am there for all of the people of Northern Ireland and not just there

:56:07.:56:09.

for the people who voted the office or who voted for Brexit, I am there

:56:10.:56:13.

for ever ready in Northern Ireland and I intend to take forward their

:56:14.:56:16.

views in any of the negotiations follow. We are leaving the European

:56:17.:56:23.

Union, that is the reality. Now, what do we do to make the best out

:56:24.:56:28.

of that for the people of Northern Ireland? The question is, is there a

:56:29.:56:33.

possibility that some kind of special arrangement could be arrived

:56:34.:56:37.

at for Northern Ireland which would satisfy you but also satisfy matters

:56:38.:56:42.

-- Martin McGuinness which is short of Northern Ireland completely

:56:43.:56:44.

leaving the European Union, because that what -- that is what Nicola

:56:45.:56:49.

Sturgeon is talking about, she talked of bed again this morning to

:56:50.:56:53.

and Marr? We start from the very basic part of the whole of the UK is

:56:54.:56:57.

leading the European Union. Do I think there is a possibility that we

:56:58.:57:01.

might have a continuing special relationship with our neighbours in

:57:02.:57:04.

the Republic of Ireland and the whole of Europe, yes, there is a

:57:05.:57:08.

possibility that may happen. Europe has already given us a special

:57:09.:57:14.

position and they already know that Northern Ireland, because a very

:57:15.:57:18.

difficult pass, has had difficulties but the very basic fundamental is

:57:19.:57:21.

that we are leaving the European Union. If we can have continuing

:57:22.:57:26.

good relations with the EU, I am content and I think that would be a

:57:27.:57:29.

very good thing for Northern Ireland to have. It doesn't take away from

:57:30.:57:35.

the issue that we're leaving. With respect, that is not Martin

:57:36.:57:40.

McGuinness's position. He does not accept the fundamental point is

:57:41.:57:42.

Northern Ireland and whatever he chooses to call it, the north or

:57:43.:57:47.

this place, is leading the EU. He doesn't see it that way and expect

:57:48.:57:50.

that is what we will hear from him in a couple of moments. It is fine

:57:51.:57:56.

for you to see that you can force on the changes mind. No, and I can

:57:57.:58:00.

force them to change his mind on a lot of issues but the reality is

:58:01.:58:06.

that we are part of the UK and the UK has voted to leave the EU and

:58:07.:58:10.

that is the reality that we have to deal with now. Should we ignore that

:58:11.:58:14.

fact or should we deal with that fact? Take magnetically very simple

:58:15.:58:19.

fact -- view that we deal with that fact for the best in everyone in

:58:20.:58:22.

Northern Ireland. Worried at first, stations I had after the vote on the

:58:23.:58:26.

referendum was the very major investor in Northern Ireland and has

:58:27.:58:29.

questioned the meat was an we still going to remain within the United

:58:30.:58:33.

Kingdom because that was a critical point him to know. I said we are

:58:34.:58:37.

still going to be in the UK because that is a very strong part of our

:58:38.:58:41.

selling point right across the world. Our membership of the UK is

:58:42.:58:45.

critical and he doesn't agree with that either, that is the reality as

:58:46.:58:50.

well. We know what Scotland has done to deal with this issue, the task

:58:51.:58:55.

force, special meetings, Nicola Sturgeon has been to Brussels,

:58:56.:58:58.

Theresa Villiers has been to Edinburgh. What about the

:58:59.:59:02.

establishment of some kind of all Ireland forum to discuss the issue

:59:03.:59:08.

as it affects the Ireland -- island of Ireland? It is not just about

:59:09.:59:12.

what happens in Northern Ireland but huge ramifications for the public of

:59:13.:59:16.

Ireland as well. It does have big implications for the pub Ireland. We

:59:17.:59:20.

discussed those implications at the North-South ministerial Council. We

:59:21.:59:25.

had a very good discussion and we will continue those discussions.

:59:26.:59:29.

There is absolutely no need for another institution to discuss these

:59:30.:59:34.

issues. I can lift the phone and speak to the Foreign Minister in any

:59:35.:59:37.

of the ministers any time I want. There is no need for another

:59:38.:59:40.

institution to deal with these issues. Thank you very much indeed

:59:41.:59:44.

for joining us. Theresa May clearly doesn't agree

:59:45.:00:00.

with Sinn Fein that there's no need Does James Brokenshire

:00:01.:00:03.

look like someone you'll We will have to work with them as

:00:04.:00:15.

there is no Secretary of State for the knife. Clearly, the last

:00:16.:00:20.

Secretary of State that we had was a cheerleader for both austerities and

:00:21.:00:24.

for Brexit. In my opinion, she didn't stand up to the interests of

:00:25.:00:29.

all the people of the north so I hope that James Brokenshire will

:00:30.:00:33.

recognise how damaging the austerity agenda was and how it should end.

:00:34.:00:39.

But also recognise the wish of the people of the north expressed in the

:00:40.:00:45.

referendum. 56% in favour of staying in Europe and see that our future in

:00:46.:00:50.

Europe must be respected by the British Government and it is

:00:51.:00:55.

significant that Theresa May in the aftermath of her meeting with Nicola

:00:56.:01:00.

Sturgeon in Scotland indicated that she wouldn't trigger Article 50

:01:01.:01:07.

unless all parts, what she be described as the United Kingdom, I

:01:08.:01:14.

satisfied. We are not satisfied. Effectively, that hand the veto to

:01:15.:01:17.

Scotland and to us in the north, then we would use it and I think I

:01:18.:01:23.

can deliver a vote in the assembly which rejects any attempt to drag us

:01:24.:01:26.

against our will out of Europe. He's made it clear that,

:01:27.:01:29.

whatever his views on Brexit before the referendum,

:01:30.:01:32.

the UK is leaving the EU and that means Northern Ireland

:01:33.:01:34.

is coming out too. That much, he says,

:01:35.:01:37.

is not up for discussion. I think it is early days and given

:01:38.:01:58.

that they haven't yet triggered article 50 and when they do so,

:01:59.:02:03.

probably sometime towards the latter end of this year or the early part

:02:04.:02:07.

of next year, or for all we know, a year after that, they are

:02:08.:02:11.

effectively on the issue of the single market and the whole issue of

:02:12.:02:17.

free travel for European nationals. This British Government is involved

:02:18.:02:20.

in a head-on collision with the European Union and who knows what

:02:21.:02:24.

the consequences of all of that could be. One thing I do know from

:02:25.:02:29.

talking to different interest groups across the course of the period from

:02:30.:02:32.

the referendum vote until now is that there is a line within a

:02:33.:02:38.

business committee, within the committee and voluntary sector,

:02:39.:02:43.

large sections of the farming and food industry, within our

:02:44.:02:47.

universities about this decision. I think the fact that the reason they

:02:48.:02:51.

went to Scotland to meet with Nicola Sturgeon was a clear recognition of

:02:52.:03:00.

the fact that as she says going forward, she wants to maintain the

:03:01.:03:04.

union and talks about what she caused the United Kingdom but the

:03:05.:03:08.

reality is there is little united about the UK. Scotland sees their

:03:09.:03:13.

future in Europe, we in the north sea our future in Europe, Wales is

:03:14.:03:17.

very divided on the issue and I think this British Government has to

:03:18.:03:24.

take account of that. We just heard Arlene Foster say they will be an

:03:25.:03:27.

executive meeting this week for you review some of the work that's been

:03:28.:03:32.

done by your senior officials. We heard from James Brokenshire that

:03:33.:03:34.

the Government will want the year the executive's position as far as

:03:35.:03:37.

these Brexit negotiations are concerned in future. You have

:03:38.:03:43.

demonstrated this amply for busy today, you and Arlene Foster do not

:03:44.:03:46.

speak with one voice on this issue. How do we square the circle? Head of

:03:47.:03:50.

the executive movies issue forward when the two people heading up the

:03:51.:03:53.

executive do not agree what happens next? I think what will dictate how

:03:54.:04:02.

all of us move forward in the time ahead is how the British Government

:04:03.:04:06.

determines to deal with Article 50 and whether or not they are going to

:04:07.:04:11.

trigger it. In the event that we find ourselves any situation where

:04:12.:04:16.

they are prepared to drag us out of the EU against our will. She has

:04:17.:04:21.

made it abundantly clear, Theresa Villiers, means that -- Brexit. She

:04:22.:04:29.

is the Prime Minister. -- Theresa May. James Brokenshire has just made

:04:30.:04:32.

it clear he agrees with that 100% as well. What is clear that all of the

:04:33.:04:39.

events we have seen in Britain over the cause of the last number of

:04:40.:04:45.

weeks is that the blitz glassed others in London and Westminster and

:04:46.:04:49.

Downing Street have been in turmoil, they have been in chaos. Such a

:04:50.:04:56.

debacle of politics that this island has not seen for 50 odd years. Who

:04:57.:05:01.

knows happen in the time ahead. One thing is for sure and I accept there

:05:02.:05:06.

is absolute, Arlene Foster and I as leaders of the executive and charged

:05:07.:05:10.

with the responsibility to lead our people forward since the last

:05:11.:05:17.

assembly election, we have a responsibility to work out together

:05:18.:05:21.

how we can move forward and I am willing to do these discussions with

:05:22.:05:25.

Arlene Foster 's and we already have these discussions with her. We have

:05:26.:05:31.

to deal with this very responsibly and iron tends to be very

:05:32.:05:35.

responsible but at the same time, I think that Arlene Foster has to dig

:05:36.:05:38.

head of the fact that Theresa May did clearly state in the aftermath

:05:39.:05:43.

of a meeting with Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland that she wasn't prepared to

:05:44.:05:47.

trigger article 50 unless all others were content. Well, we are not

:05:48.:05:52.

content. Do you take anything positive from James Brokenshire's

:05:53.:05:57.

posit -- commented me that there is, in his view, a hard border need

:05:58.:06:02.

between north and south and the Common travel area will remain in

:06:03.:06:06.

place? Are those not things to be positive about from your

:06:07.:06:11.

prospective? I am totally and absolutely opposed to any sort of

:06:12.:06:15.

border. It would represent a very grievous undermining of the Good

:06:16.:06:19.

Friday Agreement. I do appreciate this comment but at the same time

:06:20.:06:26.

prior to her election as British Prime Minister Theresa May made it

:06:27.:06:29.

clear in an interview which she done in the north that she did envisage a

:06:30.:06:35.

hard border in the event that Northern Ireland was to leave. She

:06:36.:06:38.

is not the only British senior politician to have said that over

:06:39.:06:41.

the course of the referendum debate and I know a lot of outrageous

:06:42.:06:43.

things were said during the referendum debate but we have to be

:06:44.:06:49.

cognisant of the fact that the major issue was swung it for the lead foot

:06:50.:06:57.

was immigration. The racist you kept and the right-wing of the

:06:58.:07:00.

Conservative Party actually won the vote on the basis of that argument.

:07:01.:07:05.

That really does pose a position for us in terms of the ability of EU

:07:06.:07:10.

nationals throughout Europe who can travel to the south of Ireland at

:07:11.:07:14.

any time, they can also travel here for the moment, they will argue that

:07:15.:07:19.

there should be a hard border and I think that would be a huge mistake.

:07:20.:07:25.

Ukip and members of its say they are not racist, but one last question,

:07:26.:07:37.

James Brokenshire had a past role dealing with counterterrorism in the

:07:38.:07:41.

Home Office. How do you feel about that? The great responsibility to do

:07:42.:07:47.

with people who want to plunge us back to the past, Republicans and

:07:48.:07:53.

loyalists, the people who deal with that are the gardai and the PSNI and

:07:54.:07:58.

they have been successful in the watering countless attempts to kill

:07:59.:08:05.

people -- the watering. We will leave it there.

:08:06.:08:06.

Martin McGuinness in Clones, thank you.

:08:07.:08:07.

Now let's take a look back at a momentous week gone past in 60

:08:08.:08:11.

There was a swift changeover at Number 10, but before leaving office

:08:12.:08:24.

David Cameron got some last-minute careers advice. The England old

:08:25.:08:31.

team, there is top gear... There is even, across the big pond...

:08:32.:08:38.

Fascinating suggestions for future jobs, most sound even harder than

:08:39.:08:43.

this. After a trip to the Palace the new trimester emphasised her party's

:08:44.:08:49.

full name, the Conservative and unionist party. We believe in the

:08:50.:08:55.

union, the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and

:08:56.:09:00.

Northern Ireland. Another tour Reza lost her job, and despite the damage

:09:01.:09:08.

caused by Eleventh Night bonfires, the Twelfth was generally hailed as

:09:09.:09:11.

a success. This was about celebration. It has gone well and

:09:12.:09:16.

all seems well for the future. And Alex Kane and Allison Morris

:09:17.:09:22.

are here for a final word. We will come on to the conversations

:09:23.:09:34.

there with the First and Deputy First Ministers in a second, but to

:09:35.:09:39.

a cup which to Reza make, what do you think we can expect from the new

:09:40.:09:43.

Tory administration there? I think we will see no move away from the

:09:44.:09:49.

far right we had under the previous bad deflation, Martin McGuinness

:09:50.:09:54.

talk about austerity but there will be no backtracking. No end to the

:09:55.:09:59.

austerity agenda although George Osborne is not in 11 Downing Street?

:10:00.:10:08.

No, to Reza make was always take on security and removing aspects of the

:10:09.:10:11.

European right back from British law, so I think we will see a

:10:12.:10:16.

toughening in that regard. The you agree, Alex? I think what Cameron

:10:17.:10:23.

had was a centre leading to the right, to Theresa May come this is

:10:24.:10:28.

centre right verging on to quite hard right-wing and social economic

:10:29.:10:34.

staff. What about the justice stuff when she was standing on the steps?

:10:35.:10:39.

A lot of what she said about the union was also tied into working

:10:40.:10:44.

class scan the chances who voted Labour, she is getting a soft

:10:45.:10:48.

landing because she wants them on board. Let's talk about James

:10:49.:10:53.

recruiter, Arlene Foster and Martin McGuinness. Where is the common

:10:54.:11:00.

ground? There is virtually none, Martin McGuinness refers to Scotland

:11:01.:11:04.

there any different position from us. The SNP has a strong mandate,

:11:05.:11:10.

most people are singing off the same hymn sheet. We are being controlled

:11:11.:11:14.

by the coalition with two parties who have conflict in views on how

:11:15.:11:21.

Northern Ireland will post it said and one doesn't even want a Brexit.

:11:22.:11:26.

I cannot see how we will find any common ground. The two editions were

:11:27.:11:33.

in sharp relief. We had Arlene Foster saying the fundamental point

:11:34.:11:38.

was we were leaving the EU and Martin McGuinness saying we were not

:11:39.:11:42.

necessarily. There is no common ground whatsoever. They most both be

:11:43.:11:46.

right for slightly the front reasons. You had better explain

:11:47.:11:54.

yourself darts the Reza make said -- Theresa May said Brexit was Brexit,

:11:55.:12:03.

and Nicola Sturgeon said we needed a UK approach before we trickle

:12:04.:12:09.

Article 50, she was asked if that meant she had a veto. It depends if

:12:10.:12:16.

to Theresa May is serious. People say she was always a soft Remainer

:12:17.:12:21.

but I don't believe that. I would be surprised if we're out of the use

:12:22.:12:27.

in. We know there is an executive meeting this week. Of these

:12:28.:12:31.

important conversations are happening in a vacuum with the

:12:32.:12:35.

Assembly not meeting until the beginning of sub timbre. It seems

:12:36.:12:42.

bizarre that are going through a bit of turmoil that will affect our

:12:43.:12:45.

lives and our children's lives for years to come and all the

:12:46.:12:50.

politicians are on holiday. What do you think of the fact that

:12:51.:12:54.

politicians are not at their desks, everyone deserves a holiday but this

:12:55.:13:00.

is a time of huge upheaval. The times are set on expect patients

:13:01.:13:05.

that we would vote to stay in the EU, I think we will see

:13:06.:13:11.

announcements in the next few weeks. How do you see things unfolding? I

:13:12.:13:16.

don't think Article 50 will be triggered soon, to Theresa May will

:13:17.:13:19.

need to find her feet. That's it from us for this political

:13:20.:13:21.

year but we will be back in September with our full range

:13:22.:13:24.

of programmes - The View, Sunday Politics, Stormont Today

:13:25.:13:27.

and Inside Politics. Until then, have a lovely summer

:13:28.:13:29.

break and, from everyone

:13:30.:13:32.

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