Browse content similar to 10/07/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Jeremy Corbyn will be challenged for the Labour Party leadership | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
by his former shadow cabinet colleague, Angela Eagle. | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
So what makes her so sure she can win? | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
She's the favoured candidate of Tory MPs, but will Theresa May win over | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
the party's grassroots to become the next Prime Minister? | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
And if she makes it to Number 10, what will her premiership be like? | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
We'll hear from May-supporter, Chris Grayling. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
And after two tumultuous weeks following the referendum result, | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
a leading Remain campaign insider gives us her candid account | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
And coming up here: Tony Blair's legacy both in the Middle East | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
And the war within the Labour Party, and the chance too that | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
the Conservatives could go the same way. | :01:21. | :01:38. | |
And with me - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Isabel Oakeshott to | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
help guide us through the political maelstrom - they'll be tweeting | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
The battle to take over from David Cameron as Conservative Party | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
leader and Prime Minister has rapidly moved into its final phase | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
- a vote of Conservative Party members who must choose | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
between the Home Secretary and remain supporter Theresa May, | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
and the business minister and Leave campaigner Andrea Leadsom. | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
Speaking at the launch of her campaign, Theresa May said | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
she wanted to unite the Conservative Party - and the country. | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
If ever there was a time for a Prime Minister who is ready | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
and able to do the job from day one, this is it. | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
We have immediate work to do, to restore political stability | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
To bring together the party and the country. | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
And to negotiate a sensible and orderly departure | :02:29. | :02:29. | |
But more than that, we have a mission to make Britain | :02:30. | :02:37. | |
a country that works, not for the privileged and not | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
for the few, but for every one of our citizens. | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
I've been joined by the leader of the commons, Chris Grayling, | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
who was one of four cabinet ministers to campaign to leave | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
the EU but who is now supporting Theresa May - | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Why are you supporting Mrs May as a Leaver? The key thing is having a | :02:55. | :03:08. | |
person who is right for the job. David Cameron chose to step aside, I | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
regret that. We need someone to step into his shoes in whom I have | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
confidence that they will deliver Brexit. I have known Theresa for a | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
long time. She is a determined politician. Having got a mandate | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
from the public to deliver Brexit, she will do that. What assurances | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
have you sought from her? I have sought assurances that she means | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
Brexit is Brexit. The country has spoken. The country has given us a | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
clear direction to follow. The next Prime Minister has to follow that | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
Matt and I am confident that Theresa May is committed to that. But Brexit | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
can mean one of several things. They're of a. So what do you say to | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
Tory twos, who were on your side, that she will water down the Brexit | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
terms? That is not right. It is not just me, we have a range of Tory | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
Leavers who are backing her, because we think she has the weight and | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
experience to deliver. But I am not sure what assurances you have got | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
that she will deliver as you would want her to. For example, can you | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
guarantee to our viewers that she will not settle for a British | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
version of Norway's relationship with the EU, or Switzerland's | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
relationship? We have said all along that we want a UK solution. It is | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
not about trying to replicate someone else. We have a clear | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
mandate to end the principle of unfettered free movement in the UK | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
from elsewhere in the European Union. We saw Lily 200,000 people | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
arrive in the UK last year. The British public want that to change. | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
Theresa May palmist "Control of free movement. That needn't be the same | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
as the end of free movement. What does she mean? That is what we | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
campaigned on for four and a half months, taking back control. What I | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
find unacceptable is that we cannot control the flow of people into the | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
country. There will be times when we need to recruit particular skills | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
and we need to allow people to move within businesses. We need to have a | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
managed system. It is all about control. It is about our government | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
being able to decide when, how and where the number of people who can | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
come and live and work in the UK. But for some EU citizens, would | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
there still be an automatic right to compare? It will depend on what our | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
rules are. The whole point is that it is about control. At the moment, | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
we cannot set limits on the number of people who live and work here. | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
The clear mandate from the British public, something that Theresa | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
recognised and said so in her opening speech last week we have to | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
take back control of our migration. But we don't know what that means. | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
It means our parliament being able to set limits on the number of | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
people who can live and work here. What sort of limits? That will be | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
decided depending on whether we have skills needs, housing shortages and | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
circumstances. None of us think we will erect barricades at Dover and | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
nobody can ever live and work in the UK. But it is fundamental that | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
ultimate control should reside with our government. Why do you trust has | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
me on free movement when after six years at the Home Office, she | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
couldn't even get non-EU debt migration below 100,000, which was | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
the promise, never mind overall net migration? First of all, we spent | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
five of those six years in coalition with the Liberal Democrats. She was | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
not stopped from doing anything. We have just passed our first | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
conservative only immigration act that will allow us to close the bank | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
accounts and taking away the driving licences of people who overstate. | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
One of the problems is people who come here legitimately for a short | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
time, but never go. But she was so far out. Net migration was three | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
times the target she agreed to six years ago. Why would you trust her | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
to get it right when so far, she's got it wrong? If you look at the | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
flow of migrants from inside the European Union, she had no ability | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
to control that. But she has not controlled those from outside. We | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
have just passed our first Conservative only immigration act. | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
There have been limits to what we could do in coalition. As Theresa | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
May herself said the other day, it is difficult because people are | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
constantly looking for new ways around our system. I believe the | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
acts we past two months ago will make a difference. Were our borders | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
safer under Mrs May than they were in 2010? Our borders are safe in | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
terms of counterterrorism. What has she done to make us safer? A huge | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
amount has been done to protect our borders. In Calais, we now have a | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
much better system of border control. We have been able to resist | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
enormous pressure from people who want to come in illegally. What has | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
she done to make British borders safer? She'd traduced new measures | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
on the immigration front -- introduced new measures. She | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
negotiated international agreements so that Abu Qatada was ported to | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
Jordan. In my view, she has done a huge amount to improve the security | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
services. As Home Secretary, she is responsible for MI5. They have done | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
a fantastic job protecting us. Will she rule out a second referendum? | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
There is no question of a second referendum. One of her supporters, | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
Dominic Grieve, says people can change their minds. We are all clear | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
that there is not going to be a second referendum. We can't just say | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
to the British public, we don't like what you said, so we are going to | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
ask again. Those of us who campaigned for Leave would not serve | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
in a government that chucked away the first result and decided to have | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
another go. Speaking of the campaign, do you regard the promises | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
vote leaves made during the referendum as sacrosanct? I said to | :09:26. | :09:33. | |
you that a campaign group can only make recommendations. But you made a | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
number of promises. You promised explicitly that the status of EU | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
citizens already here would not change. Mrs May is not promising | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
that. I cannot conceive of a situation where we want to end the | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
rights of EU citizens who are here to not remain. There are always | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
individual circumstances... But she is talking about them being a | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
bargaining chip. You said during the campaign, there will be no change | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. Mrs May is not | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
saying that. For those who have been more than five years in the UK, that | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
is legally the case. But we want to make sure we can protect our own | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
citizens in other EU countries. It is right that a UK Government should | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
have its own system. But during the campaign, you never said there will | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
be no change to EU citizens here, provided the EU looks after our | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
citizens over there. That was never a condition. Now are you saying it | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
is? I don't think there will be any change on either side. Everyone will | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
take a grown-up approach might it would be too damaging to do | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
otherwise. But we must look after the interests of our own citizens. | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
So why doesn't she say that? She says she doesn't want to agree | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
anything until she sees how they treat our citizens. Are you | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
comfortable with the line she has taken? The only people who support | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
her on this are the BNP. She has said what I have said. I am | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
expecting all it is except those who have committed criminal offences to | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
be able to stay -- all EU citizens. That is right and proper, but we | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
must make sure we can look after the rights of new cases and is. Has Mrs | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
May guaranteed to you that we will be out of the EU by the next general | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
election? She has said we will trigger article 50 around the end of | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
this year. There is then a two-year time frame and the next general | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
election is 2020. So I can't see any circumstance in which we would not | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
leave by then. Gone by 2020. Chris Grayling, thank you. | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
After a protracted campaign of resignations, a massive vote | :11:50. | :11:51. | |
of no confidence from his MPs, and an attempt by his deputy | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
to negotiate some sort of compromise deal with the unions, | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
it's now clear the Jeremy Corbyn will face a leadership challenge. | :11:57. | :12:04. | |
Some suspected it might fizzle out, but Angela Eagle has finally | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
announced she will go for the top job after all, saying she wants to | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
explain her vision for the country. It comes after Labour's deputy | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
leader Tom Watson called off a debate over Jeremy Corbyn's future, | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
saying there was no realistic prospect of reaching a compromise | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
because of this to Corbyn's refusal to stand down. That provoked an | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
angry response from Unite leader Len McCluskey, who said Tom Watson's | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
actions today can only look like an act of sabotage, fraught with peril | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
for the future of the Labour Party. So what happens now? Angela Eagle | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
needs to get the backing of 20% of MPs and MEPs. The magic and Amber is | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
currently 51. There is also the prospect of another senior Labour | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
figure like Owen Smith throwing his hat into the ring. The big question | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
remains over whether Jeremy Corbyn automatically gets onto the ballot, | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
or whether he needs to get 51 nominations himself, a difficult | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
task, given that the Labour leader lost the vote of no-confidence among | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
his MPs by 172 votes to 40. But if he does get on the ballot paper, it | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
is Angela Eagle who has the difficult job. Over a quarter of a | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
million people voted for Mr Corbyn in the last Labour leadership | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
election. Nearly 60% of the vote. Since the EU referendum, nearly | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
130,000 people have joined the Labour Party. But it is unclear how | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
many of them want to help or hinder Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
Jeremy Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr programme | :13:41. | :13:42. | |
a little earlier on BBC One - and was in no mood | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Why time-limit a leadership when I've been elected | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
by a very large number of members and supporters | :13:49. | :13:50. | |
an election somewhere results in a different leader, | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
But I would be irresponsible if I walked away | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
from a mandate that I was given and a responsibility I was given. | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
I ask colleagues to respect that as well. | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
Why are you challenging Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership? I | :14:09. | :14:21. | |
think it's clear that he has lost the confidence of MPs in the | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
parliamentary party. Tom Watson, Howard deputy leader, who has his | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
own mandate Rosie Winterton, the Chief Whip, John Quire, the chair of | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
the Parliamentary Labour Party and a friend of Jeremy's, have been going | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
to try to say to him that he needs the confidence of the Parliamentary | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
party to continue. He's not listening. You can't leave behind an | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
office door. Maybe he is not listening because he has a huge | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
mandate from the party membership. As Labour leader, he has won every | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
by-election and he has won the London mayoral election, the largest | :14:58. | :14:59. | |
party in the local governor elections. Why wouldn't he carry on? | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
We lost seats in the local government elections when we have a | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
Conservative government. We should be doing better. Polling shows that | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
we are 7% behind the Conservatives, even after all the tumult they have | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
been through and more importantly, we lost the EU referendum. | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
That was not his fault. No, but he wasn't connecting with Labour voters | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
and he did not put the argument across, and so I think we need a | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
strengthened Labour Party and an opposition which can unite so we can | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
heal the country. Unfortunately I don't think Jeremy Corbyn can do | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
that job. Other than Trident, what are the major policy differences? | :15:46. | :15:54. | |
I'm on the left, any party IDs will be anti-austerity, what has happened | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
in our heartlands, they have been hit by six years of Conservative | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
cuts -- any party I lead. That is Jeremy Corbyn, that is his position, | :16:05. | :16:13. | |
as well, what are the differences? I want to be a strong united | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
opposition to get into government. Jeremy was asked in that interview | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
three times whether he thought he could win a general election and he | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
did not say yes. For our supporters and for the people we came into | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
politics to represent, we need a Labour Party that can position | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
itself as a strong united opposition and win a general election. In your | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
view that is having a leader as a winner, but what are the major | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
policy differences? I don't think Jeremy has managed to get across a | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
strategy for winning. I'm on the left and my politics came out of | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
what happened when I was growing up when my parents, they were prevented | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
from fulfilling their opportunities because we had Labour governments I | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
was able to fulfil mind, and I want a Labour Party that can deliver | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
that. Jeremy does not talk about that. We will move on. He is the | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
incumbent leader, should he not be on the ballot against you as a | :17:19. | :17:19. | |
right? The Labour Party rules and the way it is done, and Jeremy | :17:20. | :17:37. | |
Chardy know this, Tony Benn challenged Neil Kinnock in 1988 -- | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
Jeremy should know this. It is not clear he had to do this. Neil | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
Kinnock can't remember if he had to do this, or whether he did it to | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
show the strength. Putting aside the roles, most people watching this | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
programme, not just Jeremy Corbyn fans, they will find it strange that | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
the man who won the leadership fairly and decisively, now | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
challenged by you, is not automatically allowed to defend his | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
title? That is not clear from the Labour Party rules, the National | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
executive committee will make a decision on that. Anyone who aspires | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
to lead the Parliamentary party who can't get 51 members, 20% of the | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
Parliamentary party, to back them, they are not going to be able to do | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
the job properly and we are in challenging times, the Brexit vote, | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
a government which has gone missing in action. We need a strong lead | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
from the Labour Party if we are going to protect our communities who | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
are going to be the hardest hit. Nothing of that lead is coming from | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
Jeremy at the moment. You are the self-styled party of fairness, don't | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
you think it will offend against natural justice against most | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
people's idea of fairness if the incumbent who is challenged by you | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
is not allowed to fight you in an election? Work that seem incredible? | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
Forget the rules, just offends against fairness. I don't know what | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
the outcome is going to be of the decision-making process. I'm ready | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
to fight a leadership challenge and have debates about the future of our | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
party with anyone, Jeremy or anyone else who seeks to stand. Len | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
McCluskey, the most important person in the Labour Party, perhaps. Not | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
say that. I have a lot of respect him, but that is a big perhaps. He | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
says keeping Jeremy Corbyn of the ballot would cause lasting division | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
in the party. It would. This is not about the Labour Party being split, | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
this is about it being an effective and united opposition to make our | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
democracy work so we can challenge is Conservative government which has | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
done such damage with the Brexit vote. I want to say that if you | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
think we should have a strong and effective Labour Party and a strong | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
democracy, challenging the Conservatives, join the Labour Party | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
now. Do it today, you can do it online. 130,000 new members have | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
joined Labour since the referendum. Who are they? The Labour Party | :20:21. | :20:28. | |
nationally knows who they are. Have they been vetted? I have no idea at | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
what the Labour Party office are doing about the new members. But it | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
is important that people who think that we need a strong opposition, | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
jaundiced battle now, joined the Labour Party, make us stronger -- | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
join this battle now. The 130,000 people who have joined already, they | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
should be allowed to vote? That is a matter for the National if sect of | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
committee to decide, they were in the past. -- National executive | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
committee. There is no point in them joining if they can't. We opened up | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
the ?3 membership which was a feature the last campaign. 150,000 | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
people are going to be picking the next Conservative Prime Minister, we | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
have had nearly that number joining in the last week. Jeremy Corbyn | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
would say he won by over 235,000 voting for him. You expect to be the | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
only challenger? I have no idea. What about Owen Smith? We have | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
spoken, but not recently, I've got no idea, I'm concentrating on | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
launching my campaign which I will be doing tomorrow. It would be | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
absurd for you and Owen Smith or someone else from the middle of the | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
party, the moderate left, to split the anti-Corbyn vote? We have got to | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
get on with doing our planning and see what happens in the future. I'm | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
concentrating on getting my campaign up and running, launching it | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
tomorrow, and joining a battle to have a stronger and united Labour | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
Party which can give hope back to our country. You voted for the Iraq | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
war. Do you regret that? I do, and if I had known what I know now, I | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
would not have supported it. The important thing from the Chilcot | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
Report is that we learn the lessons of that so those mistakes can never | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
be made again in the future. John Prescott this morning, he also voted | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
for it, he says he now regards the war as illegal. Chilcot has not said | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
that. I'm asking you. It is important that we learn the lessons. | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
Do you think it was illegal? The evidence at the time and the | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
Attorney General's opinion at the time was not to that effect and it | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
is no good trying to second-guess what happened subsequently. We need | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
to learn the lessons and we need to make sure that if anything like that | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
happens in the future we have more robust ways of testing these | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
assertions, but I also think we have a country divided at the moment. You | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
have said that. Very uncertain about the future. You have said that. We | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
have got to address those problems. I understand that. But forgive me, | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
we have not got much time, they will be a motion before Parliament next | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
week holding Tony Blair for contempt of Parliament because of Iraq, how | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
will you vote? I have not seen the motion yet. We have got to make | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
certain that we don't spend our time in Parliament exacting revenge and I | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
think Tony Blair has been put rightly through the mill about the | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
decisions he took, the Chilcot Report did that, and I think we | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
should... We would be far better at learning the lessons and making | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
certain that we don't fall into the same mistakes if God forbid they | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
should be a future occasion where these decisions are made. -- there. | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
Final question, you talk about uniting Labour and the country, | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
taking on the Tories, but if you lose and Jeremy Corbyn wins or the | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
reverse, isn't there a clear indication that your party could be | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
heading for a serious schism? Either way. We need to heal the party under | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
effective leadership, so we can have a chance of winning the general | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
election which might come much sooner than we all think. And that | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
is my main aim with launching this leadership campaign. If he wins, you | :24:39. | :24:46. | |
will accept the result? You have to accept the result of any... You | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
would go back into the Shadow Cabinet? You have to accept the | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
result of any democratic process but I'm focused on winning this and I'm | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
not going to speculate about what happens afterwards. Angela Eagle, | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
busy summer head, thank you. It's clear the battle inside Labour | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
is about to get nasty - in the last hour, the MP | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
who initiated the vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
Margaret Hodge, had this to say I'm beginning to think he's | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
actually a devious man, who is more concerned | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
with destroying the Labour Party than he is with creating a force | :25:21. | :25:22. | |
that can win an election in such difficult times and which | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
will unite the party. There we are. We have heard from | :25:26. | :25:40. | |
Chris Grayling and Angela Eagle and Jeremy Corbyn this morning. Helen, | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
whatever the outcome, it looks like this ends badly for Labour. It is | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
very interesting. In the new statesman we did an issue about | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
whether Labour should split, and we said, no, but are now talking to | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
Labour MPs who are openly talking about this, people who are tribally | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
Labour and are not metropolitan, they are saying this cannot be sewn | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
back together. The big question, if Jeremy Corbyn gets on the ballot and | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
gets 50 MPs, I think he will win, but if he doesn't get on, that | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
becomes a case of his faction splitting off, so the battle is... | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
Everyone is imagining a split, but it is who gets left with custody of | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
the party. Control of the Labour brand, which is powerful. The union | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
funding is on a downward slope, already, the trade union is going to | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
reduce that further, Labour have had very little success with big donors | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
under Jeremy Corbyn. There is a fundamental force at work. The | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
party's grassroots once a different Labour Parliamentary party and the | :26:52. | :26:53. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party would like a different grassroots. One or | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
the other has to go its own way. You can't reconcile them. The texture of | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
the grassroots has changed in the past year, since the party was | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
opened up by Ed Miliband to new members. It might be changing in the | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
other direction even as we speak 130,000 new members since June, the | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
equivalent of the size of the Tory party, it is possible the bulk of | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
those people are people that might be, since the referendum campaign, | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
might want a party that is moderate. We don't know that. Angela Eagle is | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
taking a punt on the idea that those are relatively centrist voters, but | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
what I'd take from her and Owen Smith, is not a massive amount of | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
enthusiasm for running for this big ship, they don't radiate glee at the | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
prospect of becoming leader, so I wonder if the idea is to have an | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
interim leader who is moderate and then before 2020 and onto someone | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
who they think can win a general election. It is a big part on her | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
part. She sounded so miserable. -- punt. She sounded very depressed | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
about the idea of launching aided ship contest and that is because | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
there is no resolution to this. -- launching a leadership contest. If | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
she wins it is a pyrrhic victory, but if she loses, it won't be | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
resolved, and it feels like it will not be resolved until the next | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
general election, when the public and determine what kind of Labour | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
MPs they both like to fight for that election. It could be a bloodbath. | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
Last year it was quite lively, and this year, there might be a lot of | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
screaming at the Labour Party conference. It would be worth the | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
price of admission to both party conferences this autumn. | :28:46. | :28:53. | |
The referendum result came as a shock to many, not least those | :28:54. | :28:55. | |
Lucy Thomas was deputy director of Britain Stronger In. | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
In an exclusive for the Sunday Politics, she talks to fellow | :29:00. | :29:01. | |
campaign insiders about how the referendum was lost. | :29:02. | :29:03. | |
We are absolutely clear now that there is no way | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
Right up until the end, we thought Remain could win. | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
I'm Lucy Thomas, and I was deputy director of that campaign, | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
and one of those that was there from the beginning. | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
This is the story of what we did and why, | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
but why, in the end, it wasn't enough. | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
So let's go back to where it started. | :29:25. | :29:26. | |
We launched Britain Stronger In Europe on a cold October morning | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
Cue the usual jokes about our organisation. | :29:30. | :29:39. | |
We set out to persuade people that Britain was stronger, | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
safer and better off in Europe than we would be out on our own, | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
and that leaving was a leap in the dark, a risk | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
As a nation of Eurosceptics, we always knew it would be tough, | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
but I'm not sure we were prepared for what the early research showed. | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
When we presented that and we discussed it | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
with you and the team, I think everybody sort | :30:01. | :30:02. | |
God, this is going to be harder than we thought. | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
So we built a campaign based on numbers. | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
It's the economy, stupid, and it had been proven to work | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
in the Scottish referendum and the general election. | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
One of the reasons why some of the specific warnings | :30:17. | :30:25. | |
would have bounced off people was because it sounded | :30:26. | :30:27. | |
like scaremongering, because it wasn't evidence. | :30:28. | :30:29. | |
It was just saying, if we vote to leave, | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
it will cost this many jobs or this much growth | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
And people said they were crying out to hear from the experts. | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
to economists, scientists to defence chiefs, they all spoke | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
for themselves, and the weight of expert opinion was overwhelming. | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
if the UK was to leave the European Union. | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
Material slowdown in growth, notable increase in inflation. | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
In a sense, we were the victims of our own success in the early | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
part of the campaign, because we landed our economic | :31:06. | :31:07. | |
We pushed the Leave campaign from Norway to Canada to Albania, | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
and then finally pushed them entirely off the single market. | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
Of course, what it meant was that that was the moment | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
Nigel Farage's approach to this referendum, and to make it | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
Imagine what will happen to public services... | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
When I first saw their PPB, the one with all the arrows | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
implying that millions of people from all sorts of countries | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
including Turkey and possibly other countries that aren't in the EU | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
are going to come and move to Britain, and I showed | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
that to focus groups, it was very powerful, | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
because it captured the anxiety and fear and emotion | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
people have at the prospect of being overwhelmed | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
and these are all terms I would hear in the focus groups. | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
and the literature that was used off the back of it was very powerful. | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
I also knew, of course, that it was purposefully choosing | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
So we always knew that immigration was a problem, | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
around this table, that lots of the discussions were heard. | :32:16. | :32:25. | |
Some wondered, was there more we could do to get EU leaders | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
to show more flexibility on free movement, maybe? | :32:29. | :32:30. | |
But to others, that meant fighting the rest of the campaign | :32:31. | :32:32. | |
on immigration, when we needed for it to be back on the economy. | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
If you could solve the problem of free movement, it would have been | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
If you can't solve the problem of immigration, moving | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
on to immigration might make things worse, not better. | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
But given what we did know, it made sense to stick to the economy. | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
But it became clear that for some people, | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
that economic risk didn't mean anything. | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
I spoke to one man in my constituency who was out one day, | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
He was voting to leave because of all those concerns | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
"I understand your concerns about that. | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
What do you think about the argument that leaving would be | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
he said, "What do I care about the economy? | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
There are lots of people in Britain who do feel passed over, | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
They don't see what the future could hold for them or their children, | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
This referendum was a chance to attach that anger to the EU. | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
Shouldn't Labour have been able to reach out to those voters? | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
The brutal truth is that the leader of the Labour Party did not | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
campaign with authenticity, passion, conviction | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
He said he was for Remain, but it was on quite a narrow basis, | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
in terms of what the broader argument could be. | :34:02. | :34:09. | |
Polling took place during the campaign that showed half | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
that our official position was for Remain. | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
So I think more could have been done, yes. | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
And whether it was true or not, the Leave campaign was determined | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
The power of the 350 million a week can't be overstated. | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
In focus groups, it is quite unusual for floating voters who aren't | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
interested in politics to have internalised a campaign fact | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
or number so that it comes out spontaneously, and it did. | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
When we would say, have you noticed that some people are saying that | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
isn't actually true, people would say, "Vaguely, | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
but it's still a very big number, isn't it?" | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
In the final debate, just days before the vote, | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
the Leave campaign came armed with their catch-all phrase | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
Taking back control of our country and our system. | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
We can take back control over our laws. | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
We can take back control over our taxes. | :35:15. | :35:16. | |
We can take back control over our borders, | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
They were being presented with a simple solution, which was, | :35:20. | :35:29. | |
if you think this is a problem and migration is putting pressures | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
on our public services and jobs, we can take back control. | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
The way I would put it was that we had a complex truth | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
up against a simple lie, and we see what happened. | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
And what happened will be talked about for decades. | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
Though we built the biggest ever cross-party, cross-sector campaign | :35:49. | :35:50. | |
with over 40,000 volunteers, we didn't win the day. | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
This was a campaign where experts were dismissed | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
and conventional wisdom thrown out of the window. | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
Many doubt if campaigns will ever be the same again. | :36:01. | :36:10. | |
And Matthew Elliott from Vote Leave will be looking at how their | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
campaign won the referendum on the Daily Politics. Isabel, having | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
looked at that and seen what they are now saying, I now find myself | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
surprised that Remain lost by only four percentage points. Right. The | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
bottom line is that their big argument on the economy, they went | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
grossly over the top at the beginning. They tried to create what | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
pollsters call a settled view, which then becomes difficult to dislodge. | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
But in doing so, they went so far over the top that their claims | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
became unbelievable, and simply adding more experts to its got no | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
response from the electorate. Secondly, and more importantly, they | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
had no answer on the immigration question. I think the majority of | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
people who voted Leave, whether or not they would admit it, well, in | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
their heart of hearts, voting so because of immigration, and Remain | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
had no answer on that. You didn't have to be a rocket scientist or | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
even a psephologists work-out that immigration was going to be the big | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
issue. We have spoken about it on this programme months before the | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
campaign began, and yet even by the end of the campaign, they still had | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
no answer to the immigration issue. That is the legacy of years of | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
British politics, when no one will make a positive case for | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
immigration, or a case for the trade-off, where you say we accept | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
immigration because of the economic benefits. The economic argument | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
failed because people didn't feel that all these years of prosperity | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
in the City of London had any translation to the real economy. So | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
when we said it would be terrible for the City of London, people | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
thought, what has that got to do with me? Was there anything Remain | :37:51. | :37:59. | |
could have done to have won? I think a different renegotiation in January | :38:00. | :38:01. | |
or February by the Prime Minister Cold War which secured some tangible | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
concession on -- by the Prime Minister, some negotiation which | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
achieved a concession on immigration would have done it. People didn't | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
feel they were getting that, and therefore, it was very interesting. | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
It wasn't the internal dynamics of the campaign that was at fault. The | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
reason they didn't have a answer was because Cameron didn't come back | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
with something solid. So it was Angela Merkel what lost it? Yes, and | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
I am sure she is now bitterly regretting not giving Cameron | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
something. The other thing is that I know that when the Britain Stronger | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
In Europe campaign had their early meetings before the campaign | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
officially began, they had a discussion about identifying five | :38:47. | :38:48. | |
positive things about being in the EU that we can sell to voters, and | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
they couldn't come up with any. That was again part of the problem. They | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
failed to put a positive case, it was just Project Fear. It was also | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
David Cameron what lost it, because for years, to get selected in the | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
Tory party, you had to be Eurosceptic. He then had a career | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
saying it would not be a problem if we leave, and then pivoted to say | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
the sky would fall in. A lot of voters concluded, that is typical of | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
the political elite. Making it up as you go along. | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. | :39:26. | :39:35. | |
The Chilcot Report has left a stain on Tony Blair's reputation and led | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
to calls from some families of Iraq war veterans for him | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
But how is he viewed here, 18 years after the signing | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
With their assessment I'm joined from London | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
by the DUP's Ian Paisley, and here in Belfast by the SDLP's | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
And with their thoughts on all of that, I'm joined | :39:55. | :40:03. | |
by the business journalist Paul Gosling and the political | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
It took seven years to complete, and for many its conclusions are set | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
to go down in history as Tony Blair's legacy. | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
Sir John Chilcot's report into the Iraq war only confirmed | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
what many had long claimed - that there was no "imminent | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
threat" from Saddam, and the intelligence case | :40:20. | :40:21. | |
for going to war was "not justified". | :40:22. | :40:31. | |
Tony Blair has apologised for any mistakes made, but not | :40:32. | :40:33. | |
I did not mislead this country. I made the decision in good faith, on | :40:34. | :40:43. | |
the information I had at the time, and I believe it is better that we | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
took that decision. I acknowledge all the problems that came with that | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
decision. I acknowledge the mistakes, and accept responsibility | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
for them. What I cannot do and will not do, is say I believe we took the | :40:58. | :40:59. | |
wrong decision. So how will history | :41:00. | :41:01. | |
judge Tony Blair here? The former Prime Minister's | :41:02. | :41:03. | |
negotiation of the Good Friday Agreement was widely hailed as one | :41:04. | :41:05. | |
of his greatest achievements. Joining me now from London | :41:06. | :41:07. | |
are the DUP MP Ian Paisley, and here in the studio the former | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
SDLP leader, Alasdair McDonnell. Ian Paisley, the DUP | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
voted in support of the decision to go to war - | :41:16. | :41:17. | |
what's your reaction to the report? I think we have two bought a number | :41:18. | :41:30. | |
of things in context. Obviously Saddam Hussein was an incredibly | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
wicked person, and Tony Blair brought him before Parliament -- | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
brought before Parliament evidence that was not evidence at all, but | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
people took his word, and the style in which he led the Government, | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
nobody else really got all the information, and that has now been | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
totally exposed. I mean, he really is a Marmite Prime Minister, on one | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
regard the most successful Labour Prime Minister, and now he seems to | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
be becoming the most disgraced Prime Minister the Labour Party ever had. | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
I think that now... The good thing about this is that Parliament will | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
never go to war again on the time that they went to war in Iraq. And | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
indeed the way decisions are taken, I mean, look how Syria has been | :42:21. | :42:29. | |
handled. It now is very inclusive of the whole Cabinet administration, | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
and includes Parliament in decisions which previously the Prime Minister | :42:33. | :42:33. | |
only would have made. So with the benefit of hindsight, | :42:34. | :42:35. | |
was it in fact a mistake What do you want me to say? Everyone | :42:36. | :42:52. | |
was shown evidence, and with the exception of a handful of members of | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
Parliament, everybody accepted that the Prime Minister was telling the | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We were moments from | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
war. Do you think you were duped, then? | :43:04. | :43:11. | |
I think everybody was stupid. -- was duped. I think that is what | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
Chilcot has indicated. Whether or not Tony Blair was doing this in | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
good faith or not, what he presented was false. And people took a | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
decision on a false premise. Do you agree with Ian Paisley on | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
that point? No, the evidence was always wobbly, | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
and there were doubts the SDLP resolutely opposed -- that SDLP | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
opposed going to war, and we voted against it in Parliament. And quite | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
simply, you know, it was a major mistake, and where I look at it | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
today the hundreds of young British servicemen dead, and there are | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
200,000 Iraqis dead. Quite frankly, even though he wasn't a nice person, | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
Saddam Hussein was not as big a threat to the world as that. That is | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
serious, serious damage as a result of the instability in Iraq. | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
But you could only go with the evidence that was put in front of | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
Parliament, and at the time people believed Tony Blair. | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
The evidence was flimsy because there was never any proof of the | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
weapons of mass destruction. What we were dealing with was Saddam Hussein | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
was a bully, he goaded Britain and he goaded America and they lost | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
their temper with them. And basically charged off into a war, | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
unprepared, the British military were unprepared in many cases, and | :44:41. | :44:48. | |
left in a situation where many young 18-year-old, 19-year-old soldiers | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
were basically left vulnerable and lost their lives. | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
Ian Paisley? I think we all agree that the world | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
is much more unstable as a result of what has happened. And that is a | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
huge consequence that everybody's got to live with. But the point and | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
the essential point is, how Parliament is used to take these | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
decisions. It would have been previously that the Prime Minister | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
and the Cabinet would have made a decision and gone to war. Now that | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
Parliament is sucked into being participants in the process, on one | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
hand that weakens Parliament because we cannot hold somebody to account | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
if we have been a participant in the decision. But that is where we now | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
are, but all decisions about Britain increasing troop movements in the | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
Middle East for example, in Syria and other places like that, we are | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
now brought into those decisions and we -- and is that where we want to | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
be? In response to the Chilcot Report, | :45:49. | :45:50. | |
Colonel Tim Collins said about Tony Blair: "It may well | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
be he was actually drunk on his self-importance, | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
having had successes in Kosovo and Sierra Leone, and having | :45:56. | :45:57. | |
brokered the Good Friday Agreement he genuinely believed | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
he could do no wrong." Does that mean we need to reassess | :46:00. | :46:10. | |
his role in our peace process here? I don't think so. I think Tony Blair | :46:11. | :46:22. | |
was almost -- there are almost in my mind two Tony Blair 's. He brought | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
us to peace out of all belief... That hasn't changed with the Chilcot | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
findings? There is another Tony Blair that | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
charged off to war in Iraq, but I fundamentally disagree with. It is | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
two different personalities, almost. I think he did a massive amount of | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
good. I felt, over the years in the early 1990s, when it was difficult | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
to get peace and stability here, yet he managed with Bertie Ahern and | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
Bill Clinton aiding and abetting, to pull us all together. He spent an | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
awful lot of time here, more time than all the other British prime | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
ministers combined, and we've got to be honest and recognise that, that | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
there are people live in Northern Ireland today in Belfast today as is | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
well thought of Tony Blair's effort, but that's it's very uncomfortably | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
and does not justify the Iraqi situation where basically he should | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
not have been in Iraq. Do you agree, Ian Paisley, or do you | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
think that given what we have now discovered in Chilcot, we need to | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
now look again at his role in Northern Ireland? | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
I think there's going to be constant revisionism about all political | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
leaders, that's the nature of politics, as more evidence comes | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
out. First of all, because Tony Blair was so successful I think it | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
did not and arrogance but almost an issue of infallibility, that he | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
could do no wrong. So I am more in the Tim: zero, because he was on a | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
crest of a wave, he thought he could do anything. But now we are found -- | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
finding that the foundation on which his legacy was built is starting to | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
crumble. I do agree he played a significant | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
role in the Good Friday Agreement, but we have to remember that as we | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
start to go into this, we now have the on the run letters being | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
exposed, we have the fuel fraud that has come from that and the fact that | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
there's been an agreement done on that side, all that criminality is | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
still going on. That's part of his legacy. | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
We need to turn to other issues. The seeming civil war that has | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
broken out within the Conservative Party in Westminster, and the Labour | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
Party. What is your assessment? I'm very concerned at the | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
instability that has flowed in the last few weeks, and is largely | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
flowing from the European referendum. You know, at this time | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
we need stability, and I am deeply concerned that the leaders for the | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
excellent campaign have all jumped ship and disappeared. What we badly | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
need is people who, when something like that is approved, they won the | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
vote, and therefore they should have stayed the course and ensured that | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
their Brexit plans, they saw it through. I am horrified personally | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
at the prospect of Britain exiting Europe, because it is bad for | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
Britain, it is bad for Europe, it is bad for the island of Ireland as a | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
whole and particularly bad for Northern Ireland. You don't sign up | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
to the old maxim that England's misfortune as Ireland's opportunity? | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
Quite simply, we are all stuck with each other. And I think this is one | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
of the things that flowed from Tony Blair's investment in the 1998 | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
settlement, but quite simply we recognise that we are neighbours, | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
the Irish Republic and Britain, and in the north here we are stuck | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
somewhere in the middle half, foot in each camp. We have to get on with | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
it, and quite simply instability in Irish politics over the last few | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
months until they get -- got a Government together was bad for | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
everybody. That instability is now affecting Britain, the Conservative | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
Party is in a state of flux, the Labour Party is almost imploding in | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
itself. Ian Paisley, if you did have a say in either of the two political | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
contests, who would you be in favour of? The person who left the stage | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
when he was most required is of course the Prime Minister. Did he | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
have any alternative? He told us all along that he would implement the | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
will of the British people, and in a fit of pique, four hours after the | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
result was determined, you walk out. So it was not helping the -- the | :51:05. | :51:14. | |
instability. We knew that Cameron was leaving... We do seem to have | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
two big political parties imploding in front of our very eyes, you | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
couldn't make it up. Fact is stranger than fiction. So how do you | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
see things unfolding in the next couple of months? The issue of who | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
leads the Conservatives is entirely a matter for the 150,000 members of | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
the party, they must decide who will be their best leader and of course | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
the leader will be a member of Parliament, and that leader will be | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
the first among equals and will be the Prime Minister for the | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
foreseeable future. It is at the Conservative Party, I am not going | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
to come down on one side or the other. We will work with whoever the | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
Conservative Party put forward, and we've | :51:55. | :52:06. | |
already got working relationships with both Theresa May and Andrea | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
Leadsom, Andrea's been over to speak with the association meetings, | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
Theresa May has been a good friend in terms of giving us very good | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
security briefings. And either one of them will make a fine leader. | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
With regards to the Labour Party, what I'm saying is that Jeremy | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
Corbyn should have led his party from his heart during the campaign, | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
if he had done what we knew he wanted to do, that is be a leave | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
campaigner, I think the outcome would have been different also. Very | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
interesting to hear your thoughts. With me are Sam McBride | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
of the News Letter, and the business Let's have a word about Tony Blair's | :52:40. | :52:51. | |
achievements, and the findings of the Chilcot Report. It's fair to say | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
probably that Tony Blair's achievements in Northern Ireland | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
have won him more plaudits outside Northern Ireland than within. The | :53:02. | :53:13. | |
sort of creative and be a good -- ambiguity in things like the on the | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
run letters is still an issue that comes up time and time again. So | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
yes, it's certainly harmed his legacy, I think a lot of people here | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
probably had mixed emotions anyway. Paul, you are a former Labour Party | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
councillor in Leicester, Tony Blair was Labour's longest serving Prime | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
Minister. What do you think grassroots Labour Party members will | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
make of the Chilcot findings, and his big success? I think the current | :53:45. | :53:53. | |
problems within the Labour Party, the conflict between the | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
Parliamentary party and the membership, are reflected in that as | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
well, which is that I think most members of the Labour Party would | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
not be surprised by the Chilcot findings, and they would have | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
expressed extreme scepticism about the claims Tony Blair made at the | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
time. But it is enormous regret that if Tony Blair had not taken the | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
country to war with the United States to Iraq, his legacy would | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
have been a very positive one. And above all it would have been the | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
peace settlement in Northern Ireland. And that is, his position | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
of history will always be a leader who lied his way into war in Iraq, | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
and went in to support the United States and actually very much like | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
Brexit, didn't have a contingency plan about the outcome. How do you | :54:37. | :54:50. | |
see become -- the contest is going in the Labour Party? You do have a | :54:51. | :54:57. | |
civil war which is effectively between the Parliamentary party on | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
the membership, and you cannot see a positive outcome from that, I cannot | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
see Corbyn leading it, and I cannot see Angela Eagle being accepted by | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
the leadership. The onus has been on Corbyn losing the support of his | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
MPs, in fact he never had it. Quick word on the Conservative | :55:13. | :55:29. | |
Party; do you think Andrea Leadsom is a credible candidate? It's pretty | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
extraordinary that anybody who has been in Parliament for such a short | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
period of time could be Prime Minister for -- in such -- without | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
going to an election, but that's the way we are. | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
Well, the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, has rejected | :55:48. | :55:49. | |
a call for an All-Ireland forum to consider the implications of Brexit. | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
In an interview with our Political Correspondent Gareth | :55:53. | :55:54. | |
Gordon, she also described a lower UK-wide rate of Corporation Tax | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
as an opportunity for Northern Ireland. | :55:57. | :55:57. | |
Here, first of all, are her thoughts on the idea of a new forum. | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
It's obviously going to be very important for the UK Government to | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
work with the Irish Government on matters of mutual interest in | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
relation to Brexit. And also it's important for the Executive to be | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
involved in those discussions. But actually I think the current | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
North-South bodies are working very well, and so I haven't seen a case | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
for a fresh body to be added to the current structures, but I would | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
absolutely encourage both sides of those North-South bodies to engage | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
in these issues just as the UK and Irish Government would do on the | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
East-West contact. I am not persuaded we need some new structure | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
to have this conversation, but it is absolutely vital that the | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
conversation takes place. The UK Government, Northern Irish | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
Government, -- Irish Government, Northern Irish Executive. The plight | :56:54. | :57:04. | |
of corporation tax seems to have been pulled away with the | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
Chancellor's announcement he was going to lower the rate across the | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
UK? Is that a blow for Northern Ireland? Now, it is a big plus I | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
think because the advantages generated by the 12.5% rate the | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
Executive wants to deliver is not necessarily addition in relation to | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
the rest of the country, in Great Britain, it is actually to enable | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
Northern Ireland to compete on a level playing field, complete with a | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
lower corporation tax rates out of the border, but also with countries | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
around the world. Actually there is an advantage in the idea put forward | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
by the Chancellor of reducing the UK Main rate, because it makes 12.5% | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
for Northern Ireland is more affordable for the Executive to | :57:51. | :57:50. | |
deliver. Let's hear what Sam | :57:51. | :57:52. | |
and Paul make of that. The Secretary of State saying this | :57:53. | :58:04. | |
would be good for the Northern Ireland economy. Do you buy that? | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
Know, and I don't accept her argument that we don't need to have | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
a hard border. We are already seeing a lot of investment, we are | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
releasing questions over the future of the US investment conference, and | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
I'm hearing people in business expressing unhappiness about the | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
difficulty in planning future investment programmes. | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
The Secretary of State says George Osborne's plans to reduce | :58:32. | :58:33. | |
the UK's main rate of Corporation Tax is good news | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
I understand what she's saying, it does make it more affordable, but I | :58:37. | :58:45. | |
can't say that Sinn Fein will agree to going down to a 10% weight, and | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
with a 12.5% rate, than actually what is the real benefit going to | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
Northern Ireland when you by getting a 1.5 or 2.5 advantage of Great | :58:58. | :59:07. | |
Britain, it doesn't make sense. I've got a lot of sympathy, purely | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
because I think some of the commentary around this is a bit | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
pedantic. Arlene Foster is not at all rolling out North-South | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
cooperation, she said that clearly has to be North-South corporation, | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
it is down to what for -- form that takes. | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
Thanks both - and let's just pause and take a look back | :59:29. | :59:30. | |
at the political week in 60 seconds, with Stephen Walker. | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
The idea of an all Ireland forum after the Brexit vote failed to get | :59:37. | :59:43. | |
DUP support. It wasn't discussed with me at any stage over the | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
weekend, or indeed before. And it wasn't discussed today. But one | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
cross-border plan on children's health care they get the go-ahead. | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
It's going to be brought in over the next five years, so by the end of | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
next year all urgent cases will come to Dublin, and by the end of 2018, | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
all cases will. There were married critical voices of the Chilcot. | :00:08. | :00:16. | |
Yellow macro -- the Chilcot Report. It is a damning indictment of Tony | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
Blair. The economy minister promised a smooth transition out of the EU. | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
There will be no crash landing. But that didn't stop one investment | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
conference being called off. You macro it has been postponed directly | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
as a result of the Brexit vote. -- it has been postponed directly as a | :00:41. | :00:41. | |
result of the Brexit vote. And Sam and Paul are | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
with me for a final word. You were at the meeting | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
when Martin McGuinness announced that a US investment conference | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
planned for Belfast and Derry for October has been postponed | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
indefinitely because of Brexit. The Secretary of State says that is | :00:52. | :01:01. | |
not the reason. How big a blow is that? Basically Northern Ireland is | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
far too dependent on foreign direct investment coming in, and if we can | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
get investors to even look at Northern Ireland, in particular at | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
Derrey, it really does show the damage inflicted by the Brexit | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
position. The Secretary of State would say we can now buy into the | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
bigger global platform will be on not just looking at a shrinking | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
European market. Where is the evidence of that? It is simply | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
another promise that has no obvious foundation, and that was the problem | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
the whole way through, that actually we didn't know what the outcome of | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
the Brexit campaign was going to be. And we still do not. Sam, there's an | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
awful lot happening in Northern Ireland, the adjustment -- | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
adjustment with Brexit as it affects Northern Ireland specifically, and | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
it's all against this background of febrile developments both within the | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
Tories and within Labour at Westminster. And also it should be | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
noted down south where Ender Kenny is under increasing pressure and is | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
no guarantee he will still be in post next year. I think there is a | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
great deal of political instability at the moment, and that is going to | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
feed into this, but the business stuff is more immediate. Firms | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
pulling out of his best when conferences, that of sort stuff, but | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
is more alarming because there will be some sort of Government whether | :02:23. | :02:23. | |
we like it or not very soon. Now back to Andrew in London. | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
for London will look after the franchise in a few years' time. | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
And with that, it's back to you, Andrew. | :02:34. | :02:45. | |
So, will Angela Eagle succeed in replacing Jeremy Corbyn? And our | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
senior Tories discussing plans for a centre ground party with the Lib | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
Dems? Or questions for the week ahead. | :02:58. | :02:58. | |
And joining us is the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
Welcome back. Will the Liberal Democrats campaign to rejoin the EU, | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
come the next general election? We have to see what am I of the land | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
will be. It could be October, it could be made 2020. But just like | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
every other Liberal leader since 1955, I believe, I will have in my | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
manifesto a question that there are a commitment that Britain is better | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
off at the heart of Europe. Chris Grayling said to us this morning | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
that he thinks he will be -- we will be out by the next election. If it | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
is October, all bets are off, but if the parliament goes its term and we | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
are out of the EU and into the 2020 election, would you like your party | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
to have a commitment to rejoin? I want to be part of Europe and I | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
would like to be part of the European Union. If you had asked the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
12 months ago, I would not have predicted that we would have left | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
the EU. I would not have predicted that Jeremy Corbyn would lead the | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
Labour Party or that David Cameron would have resigned. In four years' | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
time, the lie of the land could be very different. But I am trying to | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
work out if you feel so strongly about it, will you accept the | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
referendum result, or will you try to get us back into the EU? I accept | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
the referendum result. At the moment, the trajectory is towards | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Brexit and we have to accept that. I have no time for MPs who say we | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
should be undoing the result. That does not mean I give up my campaign | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
for Britain to be in the EU. As has been said by others, you have an | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
election, and if you lose, you accept it, but you don't give up | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
your principles. So I hope it will remain in the EU and I hope it will | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
be the choice of electors if that is the case. Politicians must not force | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
that on people. But didn't we just vote to come out? The 52% were very | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
clear over what they voted against. That was all they were asked to do. | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
They were not asked to vote for one of the five or six potential exit | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
strategies, whether it be for access to the single market, some level of | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
free movement, or whether it is the almost North Korea option but a | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
handful of people prefer the UK to have. It seems to me to be right | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
that the British people, before we leave the EU, are given the choice | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
as to what they want. So you want a referendum on the terms of | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
departure? Well, nobody has voted for what comes next. People voted to | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
leave the EU, but it seems right to me that having made the choice two | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
weeks ago, the British people should also be allowed to choose what is | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
the next step. That sounds like a referendum on the terms to me. Which | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
I am not in favour of, because we have seen that people are busy. We | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
have representative democracy for a reason, and some decisions are | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
better thrashed out by people elected by voters to do that, rather | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
than putting everything to a referendum. But Tim has a point. | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
There is no problem with people campaigning for another referendum. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
In 1975, we had a referendum and it wasn't like all the anti-Europeans | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
accepted the decision. They carried on campaigning for another 40 years. | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
So it could be another 40 years before he gets another referendum. | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
He is a young lad. Who knows? I would be about Gladstone's age by | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
them. I agree with you in one sense that we don't want to go to the | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
public with a referendum on every issue. The problem is that this | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
government, in a chaotic way, has established that principle, which | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
means that it would be wrong and anti-democratic for the MPs to then | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
overturn what the electorate have done. That means that in terms of | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
endorsing what happens next, and the 52% may have 52 the ideas of what | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
exit looks like. That is fine, but Britain needs to choose what happens | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
next. And they need to choose whether they prefer the status quo | :07:16. | :07:24. | |
before Article 50 is invoked. Oh! Well, I think there was a real | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
danger that MPs will, over a course of time, basically diluted Brexit | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
and not deliver it properly. I thought it was interesting that | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
people like Chris Grayling or arguing that Brexit is safer in the | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
hands of Theresa May. Why is he during that when she was a Remainer? | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
Because he says she has the backing of the majority of Tory MPs. Of | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
course, in Parliament, most MPs are for Remain, and he says that only | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
Theresa May can push through Brexit, which is counterintuitive, but makes | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
sense when you think about it. Surely no government can agree to a | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
referendum on the terms, because Europe would then say, so you need | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
another vote? You are getting nothing. It would be like Congress | :08:10. | :08:18. | |
announcing a referendum on a trade deal with another country. Why would | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
that country do a deal when it is subject to domestic politics? So I | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
think another referendum is unlikely, but I fear that the | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
entirety of the next parliament will be taken up by the process of | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
extrication. What did you say about article 50? If the legal | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
interpretation that once one has invoked article 50, the matter is | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
out of our hands, that is like jumping out of a plane without being | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
sure whether you have a parachute. It seems to me that the bridge | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
people should be allowed to check the safety of the parachute. That | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
means, do we know what we are going into? If we decide collectively that | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
we should be in the single market, for example, as many Brexiteers | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
believe, then for us to press the button to leave the European Union | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
without any guarantee that we would have that access would be foolish to | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
stop are you saying we need another referendum before we press article | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
50? We will need to check the legal advice, but I would not want us to | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
be in a legal position where there is no turning back. But the issue is | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
whether you need a vote of parliament to trigger article 50. To | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
my mind, that is a detail. What I am really bothered about is whether the | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
UK puts us in a position where there is no turning back and we have to | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
settle for whatever bad deal we might get. But once you trigger | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
article 50, that is it. The problem is, if you have done that, my | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
understanding is that there is and then an opportunity for us to | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
negotiate. We get what we are given, and it might be a really bad deal. | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
My job is to make sure to get a good deal. The discussions now might all | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
be over exit over the next few years. It is going to move on from | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
being stuffed for the political classes, as people experience the | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
fact that they have less to spend on holiday, that their savings are | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
worth less. People will begin to realise the reality. Let me ask you | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
this. There is an indication from the Sunday Times... Do you want to | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
rebrand your party? Do you think that the term Liberal Democrats is | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
tarnished? No, I don't. Our party has nearly doubled in size since the | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
last election 13 months ago, and it has gone up by another 16,000 in the | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
last fortnight. There is a movement among young people joining the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
Liberal Democrats, who see the chaos in the other two parties. How about | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
the Labour Democrats? If you look at the other parties, we are now the | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
marketplace where progressives and moderates from other parties can | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
safely gather. We are open to talking to others in other parties. | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
One of the good things from the referendum, not the result, was the | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
fact that many of us shared platforms with people who we | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
discovered we agree with more than just on the European Union. Have you | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
got any Tories in your cross hairs? I have talked to lots of people. | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
Answer the question. That would not be fair. I have talked to loss of | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
people. Politics is really fluid. Do you buy this realignment? For it to | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
happen, the Lib Dems would need both Andrea Leadsom to be the Tory leader | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
and Jeremy Corbyn to stay as the Labour leader. It requires a lot to | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
happen. If Leadsom did become Tory leader and Jeremy Corbyn were | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
strengthened as Labour leader, you have not just a centrist party | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
potentially, but a very big centrist party. What I would issue as a | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
warning is that that party would still be subject to all the | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
squabbles that any existing party suffers. Were I and Tim to join, for | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
example, there would be a debate about what centrism means. Is it | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
social democracy or something more economically liberal? Does it mean | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
commitment to the European Union, or honouring the referendum and getting | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
out? It would be no less prone to internal disagreements. Dubai the | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
story this morning that there were 20 Tory MPs threatening to leave if | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
Andrea Leadsom should become leader? I didn't buy that at all. It sounded | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
like 20 years he fits to me. In relation to a realignment, it is | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
interesting, what will happen to the UK Independence Party. Tim said the | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
Lib Dems world where the marketplace is, but think about all those people | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
that voted, for a righty of reasons, for Brexit, and what happens to | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
Ukip. I think we will see that rebranding under a different name is | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
some kind of people's party, and that could pick up a lot of Lib Dem | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
and Labour votes. Is Tim Farron right to be confident with the | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
position the Lib Dems are in? Last man standing, possibly the token | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
male leader after all this. The joy for the Lib Dems is that they have a | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
clear position and they are most gunning to be a majority party. They | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
can have a focus that other parties don't have. We shall see. We have | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
run out of time. The Daily Politics is back at midday on BBC Two all | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
this week. I will be back here on Sunday on BBC One at 11 o'clock. | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
Remember, if it's Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. | :13:41. | :13:51. |