03/07/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by Lord Prescott, Dr Liam Fox, Chris Bryant and Barry Gardiner.

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Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,


after a Leave vote in the referendum.


Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds


to talk to the media, this is embarassing.


He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -


When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?


And coming up here, MPs Mark Durkan and Sir Jeffrey


Donaldson on the Brexit fallout at Westminister.


Plus, what local Tory and Labour members make of the leadership


who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting


them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -


Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.


So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership


candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job


Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,


who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.


This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.


We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,


but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for


business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.


It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around


competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to


upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to


establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,


once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to


two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which


is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have


the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in


this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was


place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my


candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own


ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.


Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the


country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain


should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to


taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto


to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a


commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust


is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that


and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.


Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking


to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.


Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May


consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way


that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael


Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I


think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we


have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way


he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal


ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do


with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And


most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an


honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away


from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible


moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for


Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk


about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime


Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over


last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or


not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the


narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother


in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very


different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead


bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now


Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar


schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three


out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away


from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.


She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is


that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is


competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.


That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into


trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue


with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a


question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years


ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree


with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an


impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast


herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the


events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a


Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting


into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in


the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.


That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and


Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the


country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom


or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the


dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the


Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake


that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move


on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It


serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are


two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you


could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they


can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see


anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final


ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow


others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that


presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell


you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any


particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of


movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers


will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other


side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea


Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being


contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.


Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood


Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.


If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,


we must fully implement the instruction given to us


for membership of the single market


if it entails the movement of people.


Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,


Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first


to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the


result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason


I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the


referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also


have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in


netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.


Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after


this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will


have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more


than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into


perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an


extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make


serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing


you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.


Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's


oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers


will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,


because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is


a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most


important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are


three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea


Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I


understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road


ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before


you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation


between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and


a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European


Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade


Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with


Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be


detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a


crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the


commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who


have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk


about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article


50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can


we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you


want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain


prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true


that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even


President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must


expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new


Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I


don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.


That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European


Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a


way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But


there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less


than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,


but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas


in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we


had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have


quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of


the things we will have to understand. If we introduce


restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be


restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other


direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you


her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have


accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like


this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion


between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with


Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to


Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime


Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the


Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a


very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in


the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of


compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective


government. What's most important quality for


the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?


They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So


the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It


is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think


the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?


If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to


take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European


Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after


Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me


to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,


but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which


one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on


Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it


known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to


tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to


emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an


overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority


among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the


country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think


the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country


would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to


be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I


think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary


party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it


mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but


it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12


days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much


has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.


Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,


the stand-off continues in the Labour Party


with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party


expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up


Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns


I think people may look back on this week as the week


when the Labour Party committed suicide.


He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,


The Labour Party are being ripped apart...


sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,


he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations


ahead of this EU referendum debate.


and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me


in internal manoeuvring at this time.


In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.


Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.


at a meeting with his party behind closed doors


on the eve of a no-confidence vote


his battle with his own colleagues worsened.


It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,


where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,


"I like you, you've always been my friend.


I appreciate what you've tried to do,


but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".


With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack


He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.


And between takes, a critic of his leadership,


his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.


I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell


and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.


The whole of the rest of the world is against them.


They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.


They are interested in the Falklands.


They are interested in a whole range of things like that.


But they are not interested and have very little understanding


of the processes of Westminster politics.


On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,


the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.


Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.


Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,


I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,


It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,


On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger


Are you going to stand for the leadership?


I'll be saying something later today.


It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours


We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,


four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,


have gone into his office and are trying


As it happened, they weren't invited in.


Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated


and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested


retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.


no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.


We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear


a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,


the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.


He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed


a new generation of politicians to come forward.


This has given opportunities to people like Barry,


who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,


And they're rising to the challenge effectively.


These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.


You talked about the movement, rather than the party.


Is that usurping traditional party structures?


The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass


basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,


it is something that engages in the wider community.


If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more


than have soundbites and a polished media performance


It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John


They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.


With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,


over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.


But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think


Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job


Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn


still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that


Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.


I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal


to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.


How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?


He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour


MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in


the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the


Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never


actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations


that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,


but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not


just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as


well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where


we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have


seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today


saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as


well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone


who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best


interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which


needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have


seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own


problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris


stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental


issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this


country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,


you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John


Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be


the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general


principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr


Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what


I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.


The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had


against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...


To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party


members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up


with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party


membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his


responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular


mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a


suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow


we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings


both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's


legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could


continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking


about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That


is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to


negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants


Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation


has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to


do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is


in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure


Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to


happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and


credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the


country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound


falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future


negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need


to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,


at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a


credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are


squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in


politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a


contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he


cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have


a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things


either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?


That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered


agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I


don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved


on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he


led the Labour Party into government, and he won those


collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not


where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If


there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as


a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?


I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader


of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge


Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the


candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not


only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the


interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence


motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you


didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you


keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic


problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is


that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated


your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are


certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may


not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider


electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you


look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit


like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in


both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are


seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but


those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't


want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can


destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this


rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing


in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out


with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and


talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a


while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.


When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the


end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.


I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations


Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting


times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -


the General Secretary of the Unite union,


Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn


was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed


to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be


part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this


has been a political Undermined, humiliated,


attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made


of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that


he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned


from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr


Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It


seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able


to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable


position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability


of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them


leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an


opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get


more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.


The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam


would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to


the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't


want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on


the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which


shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to


go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not


only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never


happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That


means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason


why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations


from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that


much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the


incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political


will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge


for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend


your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the


same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would


be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary


democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the


Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the


membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking


to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.


Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have


cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,


but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and


they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to


they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to


put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.


Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same


position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to


have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the


writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you


go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when


seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only


appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you


and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the


logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the


wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any


other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps


Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a


motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who


are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of


standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of


that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you


are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I


am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his


broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into


recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go


further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs


on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party


conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy


is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who


can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of


the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for


the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which


might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government


which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you


were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable


thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years


ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third


way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply


need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as


if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what


happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy


will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he


appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with


honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of


the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the


other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this


is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with


decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If


he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what


happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour


Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I


think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in


my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that


matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last


week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about


how we could change the country for the better, and they will have


nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds


possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary


democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade


unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to


change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That


is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to


convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of


this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I


would support. I want us to change the language around public


expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no


elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not


convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the


governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in


miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the


logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed


your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they


are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with


you. It's coming up to 11:40,


you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers


in Scotland, who leave us now Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics


in Northern Ireland. It was a vote which was meant


to settle the Europe question once and for all,


but one week on, no-one could have predicted the fallout at Westminster


over the last few days. So what impact will all the ongoing


uncertainty have here? We'll hear from the DUP MP


Sir Jeffrey Donaldson Plus we'll get the thoughts of local


Labour and Conservative members here on the leadership


crises in their parties. And with their thoughts


on all of that, my guests of the day are PR consultant Sheila Davidson


and Allison Morris "the greatest constitutional


crisis in modern times." No-one could have predicted


the events of the last seven days at Westminister,


and all that uncertainty over there is doing little to help


concerns about the impact Joining me are the DUP's


Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, and in our Foyle studio,


the SDLP's Mark Durkan. You are both very welcome to the


programme. Sir Jeffrey, do you accept that there are potentially


serious consequences for Northern Ireland? There are serious


consequences that flow from the whole of the UK. Of course this is a


new beginning for the UK, and we will have to work our way through


all of the issues, and negotiations haven't even begun yet. I think that


will come in the autumn after the Conservative Party elected new Prime


Minister. In the meantime there will be a period of uncertainty, no doubt


about that, we can't alter that. We have to respect the clearly


expressed wishes of the British people and get on in Parliament with


implementing their wishes, which means negotiating a new relationship


with the EU. In the meantime the argument is while that is happening


Northern Ireland specifically and places like it, perhaps the North of


England and Scotland, are losing out potentially seriously. Identix at


that. Northern Ireland continues as a member of the EU through the UK


for the next two years. Nothing has changed. Since the vote the reality


is still there, we are part of the EU. The political vacuum is the


point. There is, and that will soon be put right with the change of


leadership in the Conservative Party with a new Prime Minister and a team


charged with negotiating our new relationship with the EU, and I


think we will then begin to see clarity around all this. It will


take time, it always would take time. The vote to leave the EU is


only the beginning of the process, not the end. Mark Durkan, do you


believe in the current circumstances we are specifically and unfairly


missing out, losing out, suffering? Of course we are. Democracy and the


principle of consent is what made the heart of the Good Friday


agreement and our arrangements, and we have been taken out of the EU


without our consent. The people of Northern Ireland have clearly


expressed will to Remain part of the EU, wasn't just in the referendum


last week, the clearly expressed view was also the view when we voted


for the Good Friday Agreement. But this was UK wide referendum and


overall the UK voted to leave. I also know Northern Ireland voted


strongly to Remain just as Scotland did as well, and we can't simply


flippantly ignore that reality. If we as politicians are meant to be


representing the wishes, will and interests of people here we should


do it, we cannot traverse oldest and say, the UK said something


different. We all knew the rules, we signed up to it when we voted in the


referendum. Your critics would say you are trying to move the


goalposts. First of all not all of us thought this referendum or went


along with it when we were told. We told David Cameron he would be found


out. Some of us warned about the Christopher Columbus syndrome of


starting out not knowing where you are going and getting there not


knowing where you are, returning not knowing where you have been, and


that is what has happened here. We shouldn't be left having to tag


along with what they miss leadership in which politics gave us. This is


about English politics, and all Jeffrey said this morning is, it


will be all right, we simply tailgate whatever English politics


gives us after a new Tory leader has emerged. To re-civilian, the


Secretary of State... She was crystal clear about this -- to Reza


bilious, she said membership of the EU is that member state level,


National question. End of discussion? To Reza bilious, that is


for other people to say, but that is not how the people of Ireland view


it or the people of Northern Ireland. We had a different take on


this, we have a right for a different safe. Our position in the


UK isn't just a settled by Parliament in Westminster, our


position is as settled by the Irish people's part of the Good Friday


Agreement on the basis of consent, and it is a bit much Theresa


Villiers in her statement the other day wiping her finger at the


dissidents and saying they are axed in against the expressed democratic


will of the people of Northern Ireland. She is doing, and she goes


on to say pocket -- politics is based on consent. How do you respond


to that, Jeffrey Donaldson? There may have been a UK referendum and a


clear result by four percent to leave. But the politics of Scotland


suggest some sort of special deal mainly to be created, and the


politics of Northern Ireland and Ireland mean it is not as


straightforward as you as others in your party and others who were


pro-leave would like it to be. The difference between Mark Durkan and I


is that he will be tailgating because the STL P have abandoned


power-sharing and opted out of government. We are in the


government, we are the government of Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister


has made clear we will be part of the UK negotiating team. Has


specific label that work with the First Minister and a bit of First


Minister going into the negotiations to represent Northern Ireland with


mutually exclusive positions marked yellow we will have agreed position.


How can you agree positions? The executive met this week and have


commissioned, it took 45 minutes, if you let me explain, we have


commissioned a team of senior civil servants to now begin to shape


Northern Ireland's post Brexit position, and we have in each


department commissioned civil servants to examine the petitions


for those departments and we will bring all that together and have an


agreed position for Northern Ireland, and the Northern Ireland


Executive will take that forward in negotiations. Does that mean those


departments will try to come up with a bespoke solution where we are half


in half out examining the possibilities of fully leaving or


partly remaining in, looking for special circumstances, or are they


simply implementing a Brexit? No, we will make the case for the best deal


we can get for Northern Ireland. What does that mean? I cannot give


you the answer because negotiations have not begun, any more than I


could give you the answer in 1997 to what the Good Friday Agreement would


be. You can tell me it means the UK leaving. If I was talking to Martin


McGuinness Sinn Fein they would say, it doesn't necessarily mean leave,


it has to mean special circumstances and there is your difficulty. Let's


look at the constitutional reality. Northern Ireland as part of the UK.


There is no legal basis for Northern Ireland remaining within the EU


while it is part of the UK, that is clear. The EU has said that, they


said it to Scotland and Northern Ireland. We cannot negotiate a


situation where we've Remain in the UK is out. How do you respond? No


special circumstances, discussions happening but they are within the


context of the UK leaving the EU. First of all, Jeffrey's reassurance


to everybody is a team of Northern Ireland civil servants will now


begin to shape Northern Ireland's future. That is the height of


leadership we are getting from the DUP, who of course are at variance


with the expressed... You are not even in the government stop it is


clearly against the will of people in Northern Ireland. We are not part


of the current administration because we took the option under


arrangements we all agreed to in terms of an opposition option, and


we took that after it became clear to us that in the negotiation, again


we have a programme for government determined by the Northern Ireland


civil service. We have civil servants, Jeffrey is telling us we


should be calm because we will have more civil servants. Do you think it


is possible for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister from the


DUP and Sinn Fein to sit down and come up with some sort of solution


that is ultimately in the best interests of everyone in Northern


Ireland? No, first of all it isn't just about them, this was put to a


referendum here of the people, all of the people of the North, and if


we are to respect that will it shouldn't just be about the DUP and


Sinn Fein or the first and Deputy First Minister will to work it out.


We are talking about something more fundamental. Where is the SDLP in


all this, because you are not in government, how do you play a part


in this process? We have made it clear we believe the Irish


government should bring a forum of all parties to talk about how we


protect the precepts and promises of the Good Friday Agreement and how we


move forward to protect all our options now. Does that help? Of


course it doesn't. The Irish government is not a sovereign


government of the UK. It will not be negotiating on behalf of Northern


Ireland. It will be the UK Government and the Northern Ireland


Executive will be part of that. But it may bring influence and some


people will want it to influence discussions. They may do, but Colum


Eastwood says he will do fall in his power to change the situation.


Sorry, you have no power, you opted out, you abandoned power-sharing as


did Mark and the SDLP, they are not in the government, with the greatest


respect to Mark, someone I admire, but he will have no influence either


at Westminster... Look at the mess the opposition is in. With the


greatest respect the DUP is well placed, close to the people who


would lead the negotiations, part of their campaign, we will have that


influence, unlike the SDLP we will not run off to other countries to


seek influence. We have it at Westminster. We will use that


position, strong position given where the government is now and we


will use it as the government of Northern Ireland. One sentence in


response, Mark Durkan, Jeffrey Donaldson says you can forget about


it, he is not interested in what the Irish government says. We are not


running to other countries, we are saying all the parties that


supported the Good Friday Agreement and led the Irish people's support


for it have a duty now to protect what people voted for, North and


South. We will leave it there. Let's hear what my guests


of the day make of that. Allison Morris and Sheila Davidson


are with me now. Allison, can you square the circle


for us? That debate just basically replicated every other one we have


heard for the last week, it seems obvious there is no plan B. We are


told a team of civil servants will now begin trying to untangle this


politically and economically. It is basically closing the stable door


after the horse has bolted. Nobody knows what will happen. Those who


voted to leave have questions to answer in terms of how you take an


entire country into this position without any Plan B as to what


happens afterwards. Sheila Davidson, does it matter that Northern Ireland


voted differently from the UK generally, does it matter that some


people want the Irish government involved in negotiations and


conversations? It matters to the people who feel that but it doesn't


constitutionally matter. At the end of the day we voted as the United


Kingdom and this is what we got. I speak as somebody who voted Remain


but at the end of the day we have what we have. I am most fascinated


by this being a position where politics are managed in real life.


The invocations are in business decisions taken today and tomorrow,


not in the autumn or in two years, the decisions will be taking at the


highest levels of business, whether they invest in Northern Ireland or


Ireland. Will we see, and for once I find myself listening to Mike


Nesbitt in agreement, we could potentially see an economic united


Ireland heading towards something that nobody anticipated. That is


something I think we need to be debating as well as the political


agreement. Realistically, are we spectators as far as this ongoing


political sport is concerned, are we any more than that, can we? There


has to be some influence, but the Irish government will have more


influence than as a EU member states in negotiations -- no more


influence. We have had a vote and that is democracy. We will speak you


again later the programme. Thanks for now, and let's pause


for a moment to take a look back at the political week gone past


in 60 Seconds with Stephen Walker. The fallout from Brexit was the only


show in town. What we need to do is stand back and say what we are doing


is representing all the people of Northern Ireland. The number one


priority given the nature of the decision taken last week is to


ensure we maintain our relationship with Europe. This decision has been


made, the people of the UK have decided to leave the EU and that


decision will be respected. In Brussels, passions were high. What


we need to do now is accept the result of the referendum. We stand


by the vote of the people of the Northern Ireland. While at home


there were calls for calm. The referendum is over and there is no


point arguing about it. It is over and people have spoken. The question


of leadership dominated Westminster, Boris Johnson are no-go and Labour


turmoil continued. Some are not keen to leave the EU just yet as


applications for Irish passports flawed. -- grew massively.


Well, the turmoil we saw there in both the Conservative


and Labour parties has arisen directly out of the referendum


result, and while there's a leadership battle in the Tories,


it's a lot less clear what's happening with


But while the intrigue is playing out in and around London,


members here may have decisions to make soon enough, too.


With me is the local Conservative Neil Wilson,


Good morning to you both, thanks for joining us. Neil Wilson, House of


Cards seems almost tame in comparison to the real-life


backstabbing going on in your party at the moment. Indeed, it has been


an interesting election up till this point. Nobody really saw this


coming. There is no doubt in my mind that we have five excellent


candidates, Michael Gove would have been a brilliant one, but at the


moment it's not clear whether he can recover from this. So you will have


a vote as a local member. Ultimately, it's up to be MPs to


decide which two names go forward to the party membership. Who would you


like to see succeed David Cameron? Five candidates, all great, great


diversity of backgrounds, no one who went to Eton for a change. It is up


to MPs for the final two, it looks like Theresa May and another,


increasingly like that will be Andrea Leadsom. If that is the case


I will back the candidate that is not to reason me. Is that because


Theresa May was a Remain campaigner and you were a Leave campaigner? It


is only right that with the outcome being as it was, someone genuinely


believing the UK should lead the EU is the right person to take the


country forward through the next couple of years up until 2020. Are


you disappointed Boris Johnson is not there? Boris, I suppose, we'll


never know -- we will never know how that would have worked out. Michael


Gove may have had his reasons. As you say, as cards, we never know why


that is going on. Kathryn Johnson, no relation to Boris presumably!


Although he does follow me on Twitter! QR honoured! A lot of his


time on his hands now. The one time your party could have taken


advantage of the Tories in meltdown, you hit the self-destruct button.


Before we get onto that, you heard the Tory party -- compared it to has


a cards, it is more like the Borders at the moment. To get onto the


Labour Party, it you are right. We cannot forget the murder of Jo Cox


in the run-up to the referendum. She was murdered by someone allegedly


referencing Britain First, and that is who we should focus our time and


attention on, Britain First, the Tories, Ukip and hear the DUP.


Instead of fighting a nasty little battle that spearheaded by the


Parliamentary Labour Party. So you regret the fact that you have this


leadership challenge happening, presumably, within the Labour Party,


you would like to see Corbyn stay and no discussion about leadership?


I would like to see a return to party democracy. It is simple, I


voted for Andy Burnham, not Jeremy, but at the same time, the mass of


the membership, a fantastic amount of our members voted for Jeremy


Corbyn. The democratic process must be observed. It is simple, it is


like the ABC of politics. Just to be clear, that means he shouldn't be


challenged? I am not saying he shouldn't be challenged. The


challenge is part of the democratic process, but at the moment Jeremy


Corbyn, if he resigns as the PLP want him to do, after putting


disgraceful pressure on him, he will not be on the incoming leadership


ballot. That is not democratic. But you know and I know and I would have


thought many people know the reason, apparently, the PLP is acting how it


is is that there could be a snap election and the Labour Party going


into that election campaign led by Jeremy Corbyn could potentially face


wipe-out. That is the argument whether you agree or not, so the


reason the PLP want to get rid of the Corbyn is they don't believe he


can successfully lead the party in a battle with the Tories in the


country. Is that not sensible, to plan ahead for that eventuality? I


am afraid to say when you look at the carry on in Westminster at the


moment and the behaviour of the PLP, I haven't seen a credible candidate


to challenge Jeremy Corbyn yet. I'm not sure what way I would vote in a


leadership election, but it is a free vote and every member will have


a vote. Neill, what do you make of what Michael Gove had to say about


the Good Friday Agreement? He wrote a paper about it more than ten years


ago where he was very critical of it. He was asked about that on


Andrew Marr this morning and was uncomfortable I think about some of


the things he said at the time, talked about the wickedness and the


lies we were told, that it was bad politics effectively, does that make


you uncomfortable? Not particularly but the impetuous nature of youth


sometimes, as people begin in their political careers, they perhaps


write things that in power they would not necessarily follow through


with. Capri Laois and to violence, a validation of terrorism --


capitulation to violence -- he didn't mince his words. Many people


in Northern Ireland would share that view so I don't think you could


write that off that Michael Gove as Prime Minister would necessarily go


along with the following of that view. As you say he seemed reticent


to confirm that belief today. Thanks both very much indeed.


Let's have a final word with my guests of the day,


Sheila, are you still a Conservative, you were a


Conservative, just to check, it's a bit of a mess, isn't it? I think


actually the very idea that nobody realised David Cameron on the Leave


boat would not stay is an indicator of what messed up situation at all


is. The fact remains that we may get another woman Prime Minister out of


this, and for me I am up for that weather Theresa May or Andrea


Leadsom, I think they are both impressive leaders. What you make of


it? It is such a shame that Labour has imploded in this way, because


never have we needed a strong opposition as much as this last week


and instead of concentrating on that and holding the Levers to account,


we have this petty squabble, and regardless, as Kathryn said, of what


the PLP thing, Jeremy Corbyn has a huge following in the leadership so


it will not be as simple as putting pressure on him to get him out the


door, it will be a mess. Party membership is not the same as the


country supporting it, and I have observed Jeremy Corbyn looking at as


the leader at all but like he is being led by a coterie around him


taking him off by his collar of stage. A leader -- as a leader he is


not getting an opportunity to lead, and that is a problem.


not getting an opportunity to lead, you have heard him loud and clear. I


hope you are reported to Theresa May.


That's all we have time for. Back to Andrew.


Let's return to Labour's travails now, and we're joined now from Hull


by the former deputy leader of the Labour Party, John Prescott.


Earlier in this programme am a Barry Gardiner, a member of the Shadow


Cabinet, said that what was needed was an honest broker to resolve the


issue between Mr Corbyn and the parliamentary party and the party in


the country. He named you as a potential honest broker. Are you up


for it? I'm amazed. He twists and turns every 24 hours. And all of a


sudden, when I appear on your programme, I am told I am to be the


honest broker. There is no doubt that I love my party, the Labour


Party. I would always do whatever was helpful. But simply because I


had a few negotiating with is with Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy


proposition. You have to have the will, and the Will this time must


be, can we avoid the disaster we are heading to and the talk of civil war


and separate parties? You can't have that. We must do everything to stop


it. Is that a note to being honest broker? You can take on a thing from


that. I am just amazed to hear it. It wouldn't just be one person, it


would have to be a group of people are thinking about how you deal with


the real problems. The MPs have concerns about selections which they


have been that and with. There is concern about what the negotiating


position will be an about the leadership. When I listen to the


programmes again, Neil Kinnock and others, whether you can go ahead


without an election. I am a believer and I fought hard for one member,


one vote to involve the ordinary members. That is why I persuaded


people to vote for Jeremy, let the party make the decision. I didn't


vote for him. I didn't think he was the leader I wanted. But the party


did speak. What has changed now is one member, one vote. The


Parliamentary party has its position. It used to originally


elect the leader. We changed that and went out to the members. Surely


if you want an election, use the proper procedure, get the names of


the MPs for the nominations and have an election. I hope we don't. I hope


Angela and Owen Smith don't go into an election, because that will take


the fight closer to civil war. If Mr Corbyn is challenged, is it your


view that as the incumbent, as the existing leader of the Labour Party,


he has a right to be on the ballot paper automatically? I hear what the


lawyers they about that. I say this. If you want to challenge the leader


of the Labour Party, then you get the names of the MPs and a


nomination list and have a vote. But since he is the incumbent, and if he


is being challenged rather than stepping down, whatever the lawyers


say, would he not have a right to be on the ballot paper? I believe if he


can get sufficient names from the PLP, which is the rule under our


situation, then he is entitled to be on it. The argument as to whether


because he was the leader before is a legal one, personally, if you are


going to have an election, and I hope we don't, that is the only way


to sort it out. Otherwise you have a divided party. So he would still


need to get the names as well. Those are the rules we have. But why


haven't the names being put up before now? On this occasion, they


hoped they could shake him down. They hoped he would resign


voluntarily. I think many MPs were convinced that was the road forward.


Well, it hasn't turned out that way and the man intends to stand in the


election. In my view, follow the processes of the party and get the


names of supporters to enter the list. If he is not challenged and


remains as leader of the Labour Party, what evidence is there that


he will get better at the job? Well, I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of


these reasons. From when he started to now, he has been improving. But I


do accept that a lot of people are not convinced. He doesn't have the


pension you sometimes need. I scream and shout, as you know, from time to


time. They don't doubt that he believes what he is saying, but a


leader has to reach across the party. I don't think Jeremy has done


that. There are people in the party who have declared war on him from


the first day of his election, let's be honest. He has got to improve.


The party has to recognise the road it has embarked upon, or the PLP.


And we need to prevent civil war. It would be disastrous for us. I sat in


the Labour Party when it was the SDP and they put us out for 18 years. Is


that what we want again? Is that our answer to the people screaming out


to tackle this Tory government? Follow the constitution. Have an


election if you have to, although I hope we don't have to. I hope Angela


and Owen will not stand. I tried to advise a week ago to take more time


to think about it. I think the MPs should go away and think about it


over the holiday and come back and remember that the party once asked


to resent a good case against this Tory government, or people will


suffer. We cannot stand on the side, wringing our hands. Play it


together. I understand that rallying call, but if there isn't an election


or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains as leader, surely the situation is a


leader who doesn't have the confidence of 80% of the


parliamentary party. That is not sustainable. I understand that and


it is a proper question. But listening to all the arguments over


the last few weeks and in the PLP, I wonder if every MP would feel the


same if we embarked upon a new party, isolating itself from the


membership. If they do that, I wonder if you would keep the same


vote. MPs have to look at themselves and say, let us get behind the guy


or get rid of him, but get rid of him in the proper way. Most thought


he would resign. It hasn't happened, so let's think through the


consequences and avoid that civil war and deserting our own people in


fighting against Tories. You wrote this morning that the last time


Labour split, the gang of four in the 1980s, you ended up in


opposition for 18 years. When you look at the situation at the moment,


it is possible that split or un-split, if things continue the way


they do, you would be in opposition for 18 years. That is a possibility.


There are misconceptions people had. Many in the PLP assumed this man


should go. OK, they expressed their opinion. But they thought he would


just go quietly. That hasn't happened. If you go along this road


and have another election, we are embarking upon those who are already


talking about a separate PLP party, separated from the members. Blimey,


think twice before you go down that road. We now it will be four years


before the next election. Let's have more common sense. Remember, it's a


whole party. One final question, not wishing to make you more gloomy.


Isn't there a chance of things getting worse before they get


better? We have the Chilcot report coming on Wednesday and we are being


told that a number of leading Labour people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn


himself, will brand Tony Blair is a war criminal. That can only make


things worse, can't it? I agree. It will make it worse, whatever they


say. That is more the reason why bitter division in the PLP can only


be made worse by angry statements about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq.


Most people now recognise that, and a terrible price was paid. I cannot


absolve myself from that. I sat in that cabinet. We can have a proper


debate, but keep it less personal. Let's learn the lessons and avoid


such a terrible situation, although frankly, we have been in other wars


since then with the same feeling prevailing. John Prescott, thank you


for being with us today. Helen, what is happening? The one


thing I was missing there is a plan for what happens next. It is


unlikely that people who have exited the Shadow Cabinet are going to go


back into it. So if you are a Jeremy Corbyn supporter, what do you want?


If you accept that there is no way, and that is what the negotiations


are about, could you have an automatic place on the next ballot


or would you have an agreement that someone like Clive Lewis would get


onto next ballot? That would require Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so


if Corbyn stands again, it looks like he would win again with the


members and there would be such a loss of hatred that the idea of


anyone who ran against him that it would splinter the party. Chris


Bryant was saying he didn't think it was a shoe in order that he would


necessarily win with the members again. That is because there is


polling that shows that support for Corbyn has slid backward. The polls


put him against the other likely challengers and he beat all of them,


but there was a sense in the vote that there were some who really


wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were some who just didn't like the others


and wanted something different. If there were a plausible person who


was not Corbyn, they might go for that person. It was interesting that


Don Prescott said that even if you are the incumbent -- John Prescott


said that even if you are the income -- incumbent, you need the requisite


number of MPs. That is hugely debated at the moment. It might go


to the courts. That is all Labour bid now, for the Labour to be


involved. They are between a rock and a hard place. Whether it is


Clive Lewis or John Donald rather than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela


Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are now so far away from each other that


the rubber band of the Labour Party has broken. We are now looking at


two political parties eventually. It may take three months or three


years, but I cannot see how those two wings can reconcile themselves.


If Tom is right, the battle is who takes possession of the Labour


brand. As a brand, it is more powerful than the conservative brand


in some ways. And who has that brand automatically get at least 20% of


the votes. It comes with the name. It does, but what is the brand? That


is what goes to the heart of what this debate is about. There are a


couple of other points. All credit to John Prescott for at least


acknowledging that if this goes on, Labour could be out for another 18


years. But what about these 40 MPs who are propping up Corbyn at the


moment? I don't think enough scrutiny is being given to them. At


the end of the day, if they haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have


nobody left. I can't understand why very experienced senior figures like


Andy Burnham are still helping him. That was the point Chris Bryant was


making. Some of them apparently tried very hard to resign last week


or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if he didn't go, but they are now


incapable of resigning cos he will not see them. There is a parallel to


Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's own article 50. As soon he stands


down, he loses a lot of his bargaining ability. But what is the


mood on the left of the Labour Party? Is it to stick it out with


Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept that that is not working and get


someone else from a more credible left-wing leader into place? My


sense is that it is fracturing. You will end up with a rump of people


who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they don't care about anything else. They


joined to vote for him and they will leave the party when he goes. But


there is a bigger group of people who want somebody who they feel is


authentically left wing, but they are not wedded to it being Corbyn.


That is what is changing. There has been bleeding of support from Corbyn


himself. But also, the extent to which Corbyn is being propped up by


a few figures, I am hearing that he wants to go but is being forced to


stay. Do we know if that is true? People around him are saying, if you


go, Alec experiment about this part of the party being in charge will be


destroyed. Do you agree with that? I wonder. If you are the leader of a


political party and you want to go, you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn


turns up at a rally in Parliamentary 's -- Parliament Square with


thousands screaming for him, it makes him feel good and gives him


hope. It makes him think that, I know it looks bad, but there are


still people who love me. There is also a genuine principle thing,


which is that he was elected by people who were not represent by the


Labour Party as it was, and he feels a sense of responsibility to them.


And with Chilcot coming out on Wednesday morning, it can only make


it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot of speculation at Westminster that


Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on until


Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on


until then so that he can stand up in the House of Commons and say that


Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes. Possibly, he wants his big


moment and will disappear after that. Or he may get reinvigorated by


it. This is fascinating. All those people who are saying Jeremy should


go, he was the position to Tony Blair within his own party -- he was


the opposition. What are we going to learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair


got it wrong? They're zealots on both sides who will want to fight


this out. Whether we learn anything or not is another matter. I suggest


it is fuel on the Labour fire. But it doesn't change the positions we


know will be confirmed. But if the leader of the Labour opposition


calls on a former neighbour Prime Minister to be treated as a war


criminal, that is history in anybody's books. That is one thing


keeping the Labour Party avoided, the mistakes over Iraq. People are


in one camp or the other. We shall leave it there.


The Daily Politics is on all next week on BBC Two.


I'm back here next Sunday at 11am on BBC One.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by former Labour deputy leader Lord Prescott, Conservative leadership candidate Dr Liam Fox, former shadow cabinet minister Chris Bryant and newly appointed shadow energy and climate change secretary Barry Gardiner. The Political Panel consists of Helen Lewis of the New Statesman, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and Isabel Oakeshott of the Daily Mail.

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