03/07/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

after a Leave vote in the referendum.

Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

And coming up here, MPs Mark Durkan and Sir Jeffrey

Donaldson on the Brexit fallout at Westminister.

Plus, what local Tory and Labour members make of the leadership

who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

we must fully implement the instruction given to us

for membership of the single market

if it entails the movement of people.

Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road

ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

government. What's most important quality for

the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

I think people may look back on this week as the week

when the Labour Party committed suicide.

He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

ahead of this EU referendum debate.

and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

in internal manoeuvring at this time.

In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

on the eve of a no-confidence vote

his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

"I like you, you've always been my friend.

I appreciate what you've tried to do,

but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

They are interested in the Falklands.

They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

But they are not interested and have very little understanding

of the processes of Westminster politics.

On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

Are you going to stand for the leadership?

I'll be saying something later today.

It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

have gone into his office and are trying

As it happened, they weren't invited in.

Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

a new generation of politicians to come forward.

This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

Is that usurping traditional party structures?

The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

it is something that engages in the wider community.

If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

than have soundbites and a polished media performance

It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

the General Secretary of the Unite union,

Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to

convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of

this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I

would support. I want us to change the language around public

expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no

elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not

convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the

governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in

miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the

logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed

your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they

are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with

you. It's coming up to 11:40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland. It was a vote which was meant

to settle the Europe question once and for all,

but one week on, no-one could have predicted the fallout at Westminster

over the last few days. So what impact will all the ongoing

uncertainty have here? We'll hear from the DUP MP

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson Plus we'll get the thoughts of local

Labour and Conservative members here on the leadership

crises in their parties. And with their thoughts

on all of that, my guests of the day are PR consultant Sheila Davidson

and Allison Morris "the greatest constitutional

crisis in modern times." No-one could have predicted

the events of the last seven days at Westminister,

and all that uncertainty over there is doing little to help

concerns about the impact Joining me are the DUP's

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, and in our Foyle studio,

the SDLP's Mark Durkan. You are both very welcome to the

programme. Sir Jeffrey, do you accept that there are potentially

serious consequences for Northern Ireland? There are serious

consequences that flow from the whole of the UK. Of course this is a

new beginning for the UK, and we will have to work our way through

all of the issues, and negotiations haven't even begun yet. I think that

will come in the autumn after the Conservative Party elected new Prime

Minister. In the meantime there will be a period of uncertainty, no doubt

about that, we can't alter that. We have to respect the clearly

expressed wishes of the British people and get on in Parliament with

implementing their wishes, which means negotiating a new relationship

with the EU. In the meantime the argument is while that is happening

Northern Ireland specifically and places like it, perhaps the North of

England and Scotland, are losing out potentially seriously. Identix at

that. Northern Ireland continues as a member of the EU through the UK

for the next two years. Nothing has changed. Since the vote the reality

is still there, we are part of the EU. The political vacuum is the

point. There is, and that will soon be put right with the change of

leadership in the Conservative Party with a new Prime Minister and a team

charged with negotiating our new relationship with the EU, and I

think we will then begin to see clarity around all this. It will

take time, it always would take time. The vote to leave the EU is

only the beginning of the process, not the end. Mark Durkan, do you

believe in the current circumstances we are specifically and unfairly

missing out, losing out, suffering? Of course we are. Democracy and the

principle of consent is what made the heart of the Good Friday

agreement and our arrangements, and we have been taken out of the EU

without our consent. The people of Northern Ireland have clearly

expressed will to Remain part of the EU, wasn't just in the referendum

last week, the clearly expressed view was also the view when we voted

for the Good Friday Agreement. But this was UK wide referendum and

overall the UK voted to leave. I also know Northern Ireland voted

strongly to Remain just as Scotland did as well, and we can't simply

flippantly ignore that reality. If we as politicians are meant to be

representing the wishes, will and interests of people here we should

do it, we cannot traverse oldest and say, the UK said something

different. We all knew the rules, we signed up to it when we voted in the

referendum. Your critics would say you are trying to move the

goalposts. First of all not all of us thought this referendum or went

along with it when we were told. We told David Cameron he would be found

out. Some of us warned about the Christopher Columbus syndrome of

starting out not knowing where you are going and getting there not

knowing where you are, returning not knowing where you have been, and

that is what has happened here. We shouldn't be left having to tag

along with what they miss leadership in which politics gave us. This is

about English politics, and all Jeffrey said this morning is, it

will be all right, we simply tailgate whatever English politics

gives us after a new Tory leader has emerged. To re-civilian, the

Secretary of State... She was crystal clear about this -- to Reza

bilious, she said membership of the EU is that member state level,

National question. End of discussion? To Reza bilious, that is

for other people to say, but that is not how the people of Ireland view

it or the people of Northern Ireland. We had a different take on

this, we have a right for a different safe. Our position in the

UK isn't just a settled by Parliament in Westminster, our

position is as settled by the Irish people's part of the Good Friday

Agreement on the basis of consent, and it is a bit much Theresa

Villiers in her statement the other day wiping her finger at the

dissidents and saying they are axed in against the expressed democratic

will of the people of Northern Ireland. She is doing, and she goes

on to say pocket -- politics is based on consent. How do you respond

to that, Jeffrey Donaldson? There may have been a UK referendum and a

clear result by four percent to leave. But the politics of Scotland

suggest some sort of special deal mainly to be created, and the

politics of Northern Ireland and Ireland mean it is not as

straightforward as you as others in your party and others who were

pro-leave would like it to be. The difference between Mark Durkan and I

is that he will be tailgating because the STL P have abandoned

power-sharing and opted out of government. We are in the

government, we are the government of Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister

has made clear we will be part of the UK negotiating team. Has

specific label that work with the First Minister and a bit of First

Minister going into the negotiations to represent Northern Ireland with

mutually exclusive positions marked yellow we will have agreed position.

How can you agree positions? The executive met this week and have

commissioned, it took 45 minutes, if you let me explain, we have

commissioned a team of senior civil servants to now begin to shape

Northern Ireland's post Brexit position, and we have in each

department commissioned civil servants to examine the petitions

for those departments and we will bring all that together and have an

agreed position for Northern Ireland, and the Northern Ireland

Executive will take that forward in negotiations. Does that mean those

departments will try to come up with a bespoke solution where we are half

in half out examining the possibilities of fully leaving or

partly remaining in, looking for special circumstances, or are they

simply implementing a Brexit? No, we will make the case for the best deal

we can get for Northern Ireland. What does that mean? I cannot give

you the answer because negotiations have not begun, any more than I

could give you the answer in 1997 to what the Good Friday Agreement would

be. You can tell me it means the UK leaving. If I was talking to Martin

McGuinness Sinn Fein they would say, it doesn't necessarily mean leave,

it has to mean special circumstances and there is your difficulty. Let's

look at the constitutional reality. Northern Ireland as part of the UK.

There is no legal basis for Northern Ireland remaining within the EU

while it is part of the UK, that is clear. The EU has said that, they

said it to Scotland and Northern Ireland. We cannot negotiate a

situation where we've Remain in the UK is out. How do you respond? No

special circumstances, discussions happening but they are within the

context of the UK leaving the EU. First of all, Jeffrey's reassurance

to everybody is a team of Northern Ireland civil servants will now

begin to shape Northern Ireland's future. That is the height of

leadership we are getting from the DUP, who of course are at variance

with the expressed... You are not even in the government stop it is

clearly against the will of people in Northern Ireland. We are not part

of the current administration because we took the option under

arrangements we all agreed to in terms of an opposition option, and

we took that after it became clear to us that in the negotiation, again

we have a programme for government determined by the Northern Ireland

civil service. We have civil servants, Jeffrey is telling us we

should be calm because we will have more civil servants. Do you think it

is possible for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister from the

DUP and Sinn Fein to sit down and come up with some sort of solution

that is ultimately in the best interests of everyone in Northern

Ireland? No, first of all it isn't just about them, this was put to a

referendum here of the people, all of the people of the North, and if

we are to respect that will it shouldn't just be about the DUP and

Sinn Fein or the first and Deputy First Minister will to work it out.

We are talking about something more fundamental. Where is the SDLP in

all this, because you are not in government, how do you play a part

in this process? We have made it clear we believe the Irish

government should bring a forum of all parties to talk about how we

protect the precepts and promises of the Good Friday Agreement and how we

move forward to protect all our options now. Does that help? Of

course it doesn't. The Irish government is not a sovereign

government of the UK. It will not be negotiating on behalf of Northern

Ireland. It will be the UK Government and the Northern Ireland

Executive will be part of that. But it may bring influence and some

people will want it to influence discussions. They may do, but Colum

Eastwood says he will do fall in his power to change the situation.

Sorry, you have no power, you opted out, you abandoned power-sharing as

did Mark and the SDLP, they are not in the government, with the greatest

respect to Mark, someone I admire, but he will have no influence either

at Westminster... Look at the mess the opposition is in. With the

greatest respect the DUP is well placed, close to the people who

would lead the negotiations, part of their campaign, we will have that

influence, unlike the SDLP we will not run off to other countries to

seek influence. We have it at Westminster. We will use that

position, strong position given where the government is now and we

will use it as the government of Northern Ireland. One sentence in

response, Mark Durkan, Jeffrey Donaldson says you can forget about

it, he is not interested in what the Irish government says. We are not

running to other countries, we are saying all the parties that

supported the Good Friday Agreement and led the Irish people's support

for it have a duty now to protect what people voted for, North and

South. We will leave it there. Let's hear what my guests

of the day make of that. Allison Morris and Sheila Davidson

are with me now. Allison, can you square the circle

for us? That debate just basically replicated every other one we have

heard for the last week, it seems obvious there is no plan B. We are

told a team of civil servants will now begin trying to untangle this

politically and economically. It is basically closing the stable door

after the horse has bolted. Nobody knows what will happen. Those who

voted to leave have questions to answer in terms of how you take an

entire country into this position without any Plan B as to what

happens afterwards. Sheila Davidson, does it matter that Northern Ireland

voted differently from the UK generally, does it matter that some

people want the Irish government involved in negotiations and

conversations? It matters to the people who feel that but it doesn't

constitutionally matter. At the end of the day we voted as the United

Kingdom and this is what we got. I speak as somebody who voted Remain

but at the end of the day we have what we have. I am most fascinated

by this being a position where politics are managed in real life.

The invocations are in business decisions taken today and tomorrow,

not in the autumn or in two years, the decisions will be taking at the

highest levels of business, whether they invest in Northern Ireland or

Ireland. Will we see, and for once I find myself listening to Mike

Nesbitt in agreement, we could potentially see an economic united

Ireland heading towards something that nobody anticipated. That is

something I think we need to be debating as well as the political

agreement. Realistically, are we spectators as far as this ongoing

political sport is concerned, are we any more than that, can we? There

has to be some influence, but the Irish government will have more

influence than as a EU member states in negotiations -- no more

influence. We have had a vote and that is democracy. We will speak you

again later the programme. Thanks for now, and let's pause

for a moment to take a look back at the political week gone past

in 60 Seconds with Stephen Walker. The fallout from Brexit was the only

show in town. What we need to do is stand back and say what we are doing

is representing all the people of Northern Ireland. The number one

priority given the nature of the decision taken last week is to

ensure we maintain our relationship with Europe. This decision has been

made, the people of the UK have decided to leave the EU and that

decision will be respected. In Brussels, passions were high. What

we need to do now is accept the result of the referendum. We stand

by the vote of the people of the Northern Ireland. While at home

there were calls for calm. The referendum is over and there is no

point arguing about it. It is over and people have spoken. The question

of leadership dominated Westminster, Boris Johnson are no-go and Labour

turmoil continued. Some are not keen to leave the EU just yet as

applications for Irish passports flawed. -- grew massively.

Well, the turmoil we saw there in both the Conservative

and Labour parties has arisen directly out of the referendum

result, and while there's a leadership battle in the Tories,

it's a lot less clear what's happening with

But while the intrigue is playing out in and around London,

members here may have decisions to make soon enough, too.

With me is the local Conservative Neil Wilson,

Good morning to you both, thanks for joining us. Neil Wilson, House of

Cards seems almost tame in comparison to the real-life

backstabbing going on in your party at the moment. Indeed, it has been

an interesting election up till this point. Nobody really saw this

coming. There is no doubt in my mind that we have five excellent

candidates, Michael Gove would have been a brilliant one, but at the

moment it's not clear whether he can recover from this. So you will have

a vote as a local member. Ultimately, it's up to be MPs to

decide which two names go forward to the party membership. Who would you

like to see succeed David Cameron? Five candidates, all great, great

diversity of backgrounds, no one who went to Eton for a change. It is up

to MPs for the final two, it looks like Theresa May and another,

increasingly like that will be Andrea Leadsom. If that is the case

I will back the candidate that is not to reason me. Is that because

Theresa May was a Remain campaigner and you were a Leave campaigner? It

is only right that with the outcome being as it was, someone genuinely

believing the UK should lead the EU is the right person to take the

country forward through the next couple of years up until 2020. Are

you disappointed Boris Johnson is not there? Boris, I suppose, we'll

never know -- we will never know how that would have worked out. Michael

Gove may have had his reasons. As you say, as cards, we never know why

that is going on. Kathryn Johnson, no relation to Boris presumably!

Although he does follow me on Twitter! QR honoured! A lot of his

time on his hands now. The one time your party could have taken

advantage of the Tories in meltdown, you hit the self-destruct button.

Before we get onto that, you heard the Tory party -- compared it to has

a cards, it is more like the Borders at the moment. To get onto the

Labour Party, it you are right. We cannot forget the murder of Jo Cox

in the run-up to the referendum. She was murdered by someone allegedly

referencing Britain First, and that is who we should focus our time and

attention on, Britain First, the Tories, Ukip and hear the DUP.

Instead of fighting a nasty little battle that spearheaded by the

Parliamentary Labour Party. So you regret the fact that you have this

leadership challenge happening, presumably, within the Labour Party,

you would like to see Corbyn stay and no discussion about leadership?

I would like to see a return to party democracy. It is simple, I

voted for Andy Burnham, not Jeremy, but at the same time, the mass of

the membership, a fantastic amount of our members voted for Jeremy

Corbyn. The democratic process must be observed. It is simple, it is

like the ABC of politics. Just to be clear, that means he shouldn't be

challenged? I am not saying he shouldn't be challenged. The

challenge is part of the democratic process, but at the moment Jeremy

Corbyn, if he resigns as the PLP want him to do, after putting

disgraceful pressure on him, he will not be on the incoming leadership

ballot. That is not democratic. But you know and I know and I would have

thought many people know the reason, apparently, the PLP is acting how it

is is that there could be a snap election and the Labour Party going

into that election campaign led by Jeremy Corbyn could potentially face

wipe-out. That is the argument whether you agree or not, so the

reason the PLP want to get rid of the Corbyn is they don't believe he

can successfully lead the party in a battle with the Tories in the

country. Is that not sensible, to plan ahead for that eventuality? I

am afraid to say when you look at the carry on in Westminster at the

moment and the behaviour of the PLP, I haven't seen a credible candidate

to challenge Jeremy Corbyn yet. I'm not sure what way I would vote in a

leadership election, but it is a free vote and every member will have

a vote. Neill, what do you make of what Michael Gove had to say about

the Good Friday Agreement? He wrote a paper about it more than ten years

ago where he was very critical of it. He was asked about that on

Andrew Marr this morning and was uncomfortable I think about some of

the things he said at the time, talked about the wickedness and the

lies we were told, that it was bad politics effectively, does that make

you uncomfortable? Not particularly but the impetuous nature of youth

sometimes, as people begin in their political careers, they perhaps

write things that in power they would not necessarily follow through

with. Capri Laois and to violence, a validation of terrorism --

capitulation to violence -- he didn't mince his words. Many people

in Northern Ireland would share that view so I don't think you could

write that off that Michael Gove as Prime Minister would necessarily go

along with the following of that view. As you say he seemed reticent

to confirm that belief today. Thanks both very much indeed.

Let's have a final word with my guests of the day,

Sheila, are you still a Conservative, you were a

Conservative, just to check, it's a bit of a mess, isn't it? I think

actually the very idea that nobody realised David Cameron on the Leave

boat would not stay is an indicator of what messed up situation at all

is. The fact remains that we may get another woman Prime Minister out of

this, and for me I am up for that weather Theresa May or Andrea

Leadsom, I think they are both impressive leaders. What you make of

it? It is such a shame that Labour has imploded in this way, because

never have we needed a strong opposition as much as this last week

and instead of concentrating on that and holding the Levers to account,

we have this petty squabble, and regardless, as Kathryn said, of what

the PLP thing, Jeremy Corbyn has a huge following in the leadership so

it will not be as simple as putting pressure on him to get him out the

door, it will be a mess. Party membership is not the same as the

country supporting it, and I have observed Jeremy Corbyn looking at as

the leader at all but like he is being led by a coterie around him

taking him off by his collar of stage. A leader -- as a leader he is

not getting an opportunity to lead, and that is a problem.

not getting an opportunity to lead, you have heard him loud and clear. I

hope you are reported to Theresa May.

That's all we have time for. Back to Andrew.

Let's return to Labour's travails now, and we're joined now from Hull

by the former deputy leader of the Labour Party, John Prescott.

Earlier in this programme am a Barry Gardiner, a member of the Shadow

Cabinet, said that what was needed was an honest broker to resolve the

issue between Mr Corbyn and the parliamentary party and the party in

the country. He named you as a potential honest broker. Are you up

for it? I'm amazed. He twists and turns every 24 hours. And all of a

sudden, when I appear on your programme, I am told I am to be the

honest broker. There is no doubt that I love my party, the Labour

Party. I would always do whatever was helpful. But simply because I

had a few negotiating with is with Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy

proposition. You have to have the will, and the Will this time must

be, can we avoid the disaster we are heading to and the talk of civil war

and separate parties? You can't have that. We must do everything to stop

it. Is that a note to being honest broker? You can take on a thing from

that. I am just amazed to hear it. It wouldn't just be one person, it

would have to be a group of people are thinking about how you deal with

the real problems. The MPs have concerns about selections which they

have been that and with. There is concern about what the negotiating

position will be an about the leadership. When I listen to the

programmes again, Neil Kinnock and others, whether you can go ahead

without an election. I am a believer and I fought hard for one member,

one vote to involve the ordinary members. That is why I persuaded

people to vote for Jeremy, let the party make the decision. I didn't

vote for him. I didn't think he was the leader I wanted. But the party

did speak. What has changed now is one member, one vote. The

Parliamentary party has its position. It used to originally

elect the leader. We changed that and went out to the members. Surely

if you want an election, use the proper procedure, get the names of

the MPs for the nominations and have an election. I hope we don't. I hope

Angela and Owen Smith don't go into an election, because that will take

the fight closer to civil war. If Mr Corbyn is challenged, is it your

view that as the incumbent, as the existing leader of the Labour Party,

he has a right to be on the ballot paper automatically? I hear what the

lawyers they about that. I say this. If you want to challenge the leader

of the Labour Party, then you get the names of the MPs and a

nomination list and have a vote. But since he is the incumbent, and if he

is being challenged rather than stepping down, whatever the lawyers

say, would he not have a right to be on the ballot paper? I believe if he

can get sufficient names from the PLP, which is the rule under our

situation, then he is entitled to be on it. The argument as to whether

because he was the leader before is a legal one, personally, if you are

going to have an election, and I hope we don't, that is the only way

to sort it out. Otherwise you have a divided party. So he would still

need to get the names as well. Those are the rules we have. But why

haven't the names being put up before now? On this occasion, they

hoped they could shake him down. They hoped he would resign

voluntarily. I think many MPs were convinced that was the road forward.

Well, it hasn't turned out that way and the man intends to stand in the

election. In my view, follow the processes of the party and get the

names of supporters to enter the list. If he is not challenged and

remains as leader of the Labour Party, what evidence is there that

he will get better at the job? Well, I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of

these reasons. From when he started to now, he has been improving. But I

do accept that a lot of people are not convinced. He doesn't have the

pension you sometimes need. I scream and shout, as you know, from time to

time. They don't doubt that he believes what he is saying, but a

leader has to reach across the party. I don't think Jeremy has done

that. There are people in the party who have declared war on him from

the first day of his election, let's be honest. He has got to improve.

The party has to recognise the road it has embarked upon, or the PLP.

And we need to prevent civil war. It would be disastrous for us. I sat in

the Labour Party when it was the SDP and they put us out for 18 years. Is

that what we want again? Is that our answer to the people screaming out

to tackle this Tory government? Follow the constitution. Have an

election if you have to, although I hope we don't have to. I hope Angela

and Owen will not stand. I tried to advise a week ago to take more time

to think about it. I think the MPs should go away and think about it

over the holiday and come back and remember that the party once asked

to resent a good case against this Tory government, or people will

suffer. We cannot stand on the side, wringing our hands. Play it

together. I understand that rallying call, but if there isn't an election

or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains as leader, surely the situation is a

leader who doesn't have the confidence of 80% of the

parliamentary party. That is not sustainable. I understand that and

it is a proper question. But listening to all the arguments over

the last few weeks and in the PLP, I wonder if every MP would feel the

same if we embarked upon a new party, isolating itself from the

membership. If they do that, I wonder if you would keep the same

vote. MPs have to look at themselves and say, let us get behind the guy

or get rid of him, but get rid of him in the proper way. Most thought

he would resign. It hasn't happened, so let's think through the

consequences and avoid that civil war and deserting our own people in

fighting against Tories. You wrote this morning that the last time

Labour split, the gang of four in the 1980s, you ended up in

opposition for 18 years. When you look at the situation at the moment,

it is possible that split or un-split, if things continue the way

they do, you would be in opposition for 18 years. That is a possibility.

There are misconceptions people had. Many in the PLP assumed this man

should go. OK, they expressed their opinion. But they thought he would

just go quietly. That hasn't happened. If you go along this road

and have another election, we are embarking upon those who are already

talking about a separate PLP party, separated from the members. Blimey,

think twice before you go down that road. We now it will be four years

before the next election. Let's have more common sense. Remember, it's a

whole party. One final question, not wishing to make you more gloomy.

Isn't there a chance of things getting worse before they get

better? We have the Chilcot report coming on Wednesday and we are being

told that a number of leading Labour people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn

himself, will brand Tony Blair is a war criminal. That can only make

things worse, can't it? I agree. It will make it worse, whatever they

say. That is more the reason why bitter division in the PLP can only

be made worse by angry statements about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq.

Most people now recognise that, and a terrible price was paid. I cannot

absolve myself from that. I sat in that cabinet. We can have a proper

debate, but keep it less personal. Let's learn the lessons and avoid

such a terrible situation, although frankly, we have been in other wars

since then with the same feeling prevailing. John Prescott, thank you

for being with us today. Helen, what is happening? The one

thing I was missing there is a plan for what happens next. It is

unlikely that people who have exited the Shadow Cabinet are going to go

back into it. So if you are a Jeremy Corbyn supporter, what do you want?

If you accept that there is no way, and that is what the negotiations

are about, could you have an automatic place on the next ballot

or would you have an agreement that someone like Clive Lewis would get

onto next ballot? That would require Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so

if Corbyn stands again, it looks like he would win again with the

members and there would be such a loss of hatred that the idea of

anyone who ran against him that it would splinter the party. Chris

Bryant was saying he didn't think it was a shoe in order that he would

necessarily win with the members again. That is because there is

polling that shows that support for Corbyn has slid backward. The polls

put him against the other likely challengers and he beat all of them,

but there was a sense in the vote that there were some who really

wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were some who just didn't like the others

and wanted something different. If there were a plausible person who

was not Corbyn, they might go for that person. It was interesting that

Don Prescott said that even if you are the incumbent -- John Prescott

said that even if you are the income -- incumbent, you need the requisite

number of MPs. That is hugely debated at the moment. It might go

to the courts. That is all Labour bid now, for the Labour to be

involved. They are between a rock and a hard place. Whether it is

Clive Lewis or John Donald rather than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela

Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are now so far away from each other that

the rubber band of the Labour Party has broken. We are now looking at

two political parties eventually. It may take three months or three

years, but I cannot see how those two wings can reconcile themselves.

If Tom is right, the battle is who takes possession of the Labour

brand. As a brand, it is more powerful than the conservative brand

in some ways. And who has that brand automatically get at least 20% of

the votes. It comes with the name. It does, but what is the brand? That

is what goes to the heart of what this debate is about. There are a

couple of other points. All credit to John Prescott for at least

acknowledging that if this goes on, Labour could be out for another 18

years. But what about these 40 MPs who are propping up Corbyn at the

moment? I don't think enough scrutiny is being given to them. At

the end of the day, if they haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have

nobody left. I can't understand why very experienced senior figures like

Andy Burnham are still helping him. That was the point Chris Bryant was

making. Some of them apparently tried very hard to resign last week

or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if he didn't go, but they are now

incapable of resigning cos he will not see them. There is a parallel to

Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's own article 50. As soon he stands

down, he loses a lot of his bargaining ability. But what is the

mood on the left of the Labour Party? Is it to stick it out with

Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept that that is not working and get

someone else from a more credible left-wing leader into place? My

sense is that it is fracturing. You will end up with a rump of people

who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they don't care about anything else. They

joined to vote for him and they will leave the party when he goes. But

there is a bigger group of people who want somebody who they feel is

authentically left wing, but they are not wedded to it being Corbyn.

That is what is changing. There has been bleeding of support from Corbyn

himself. But also, the extent to which Corbyn is being propped up by

a few figures, I am hearing that he wants to go but is being forced to

stay. Do we know if that is true? People around him are saying, if you

go, Alec experiment about this part of the party being in charge will be

destroyed. Do you agree with that? I wonder. If you are the leader of a

political party and you want to go, you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn

turns up at a rally in Parliamentary 's -- Parliament Square with

thousands screaming for him, it makes him feel good and gives him

hope. It makes him think that, I know it looks bad, but there are

still people who love me. There is also a genuine principle thing,

which is that he was elected by people who were not represent by the

Labour Party as it was, and he feels a sense of responsibility to them.

And with Chilcot coming out on Wednesday morning, it can only make

it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot of speculation at Westminster that

Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on until

Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on

until then so that he can stand up in the House of Commons and say that

Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes. Possibly, he wants his big

moment and will disappear after that. Or he may get reinvigorated by

it. This is fascinating. All those people who are saying Jeremy should

go, he was the position to Tony Blair within his own party -- he was

the opposition. What are we going to learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair

got it wrong? They're zealots on both sides who will want to fight

this out. Whether we learn anything or not is another matter. I suggest

it is fuel on the Labour fire. But it doesn't change the positions we

know will be confirmed. But if the leader of the Labour opposition

calls on a former neighbour Prime Minister to be treated as a war

criminal, that is history in anybody's books. That is one thing

keeping the Labour Party avoided, the mistakes over Iraq. People are

in one camp or the other. We shall leave it there.

The Daily Politics is on all next week on BBC Two.

I'm back here next Sunday at 11am on BBC One.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.