26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has


been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour


this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't


going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of


any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What


does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will


replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we


have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the


referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The


country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition


to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you


cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and


listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls


saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and


And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People


who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the


Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can


hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of


the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not


be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour


voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or


the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we


should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.


Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We


did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It


does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union


will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every


electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the


referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party


political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters


and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He


delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young


people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a


success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I


have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came


on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we


need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in


that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to


the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to


the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and


listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left


behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.


Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,


maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but


within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we


want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be


doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in


particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be


hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be


able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European


leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by


Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this


government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who


are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning


and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are


at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that


we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to


provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in


overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some


people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.


I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands


for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the


party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few


months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need


to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...


He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would


you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his


sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.


Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on


-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.


His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I


think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every


electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at


the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part


of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support


for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has


not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me


about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is


part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been


until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is


disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in


the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going


to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best


political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for


another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does


not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would


stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.


You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is


not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your


colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would


not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do


it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder


where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with


us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming


live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,


what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum


result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.


Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have


spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,


decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,


against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I


can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and


months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the


captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well


prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England


have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I


have remained in close contact, including through the night at this


point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is


politically. There is no way of predicting all the political


consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a


significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a


statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must


be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed


everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not


everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man


who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a


conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this


does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less


united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak


to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did


not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may


feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or


any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever


becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing


with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night


before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not


really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.


I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I


have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,


Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never


seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where


we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this


the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose


it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make


any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we


have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule


anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of


reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in


what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final


two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of


my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.


Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.


They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922


Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The


Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy


Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could


be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when


David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question


by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and


there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the


prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,


and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of


reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the


ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we


have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is


critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and


answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership


contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.


APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the


length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were


difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also


pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better


levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the


European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign


Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans


emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow


Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to


have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the


referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same


on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of


the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of


the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.


Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with


Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow


Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy


Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for


the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism


among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been


brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy


Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune


with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are


very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive


committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there


is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy


Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn


is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his


Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he


fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a


scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the


second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the


numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to


remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken


it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it


in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the


same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry


is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our


disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a


massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell


says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow


Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly


Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is


Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.


He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his


mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to


wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any


other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest


Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key


question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next


Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?


I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see


someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron


did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really


is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is


seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was


the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm


sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still


interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so


horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to


leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a


bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.


I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all


have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same


page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always


thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated


timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am


having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is


strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on


manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,


we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong


signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if


it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does


he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the


members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly


popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a


national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time


of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.


We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going


to happen. You may currently be


unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half


the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the


Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that


unlocks our membership of the European Union,


chances are we will all become very familiar with it over


the next months and years. The UK will be the first country


to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately


vague so that each member state can decide how


and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,


it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has


effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership


contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,


the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts


in the European Commission. What will be the substance


of the talks? Our budget contributions will be


discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats


and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU


financial programmes in the UK are phased out,


and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights


conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have


to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,


and will require ratification from each of the 27


national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been


hammered out, it will be put to the European Council


and will need support from a qualified majority,


at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,


it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,


the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote


of the council. There we are, much more of that to


come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former


Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted


Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union


for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out


of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we


have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the


consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe


will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this


process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three


months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in


shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think


it is important for the country to see what are the actual


consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options


are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including


President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just


apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What


do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the


result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain


to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got


to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela


Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she


has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,


and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best


for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that


relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre


these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also


have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what


is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of


defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this


referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,


you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will


swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people, you


cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you


what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,


and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate


it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without


having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of


time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into


the detail because the detail matters. For example financial


services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,


what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of


jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?


We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the


detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so


that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what


this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael


Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details


will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of


relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one


that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe


because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,


but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be


made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so


curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,


we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years


I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe


said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do


with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with


Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to


understand something as well, I think it is very important about


where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp


won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger


among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their


future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And


so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the


country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of


Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain


and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a


negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this


is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do


you rule out another referendum? As I'm looking at it here, I can't see


how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.


For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in


the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out


financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen


dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The


British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as


we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we


can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally


see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will


now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,


I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another


referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people


in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want


to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and


unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in


the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are


deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of


debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades


of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.


We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics


between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the


border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now


to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and


test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really


means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country


but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if


we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of


this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I


don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of


this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would


have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I


think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it


is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as


possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when


they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,


is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the


same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,


let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the


Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got


rid of the difficult people. No, every country is anxious about the


effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see


why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but


there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told


me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the


status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries


about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's


be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always


been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when


the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,


a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But


immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt


not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these


politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools


and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if


these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on


the left and right were not listening to them and they may have


been right. I thought my last election campaign


on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the


problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,


because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this


country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither


did the last Labour government, and this government has not built


enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the


Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie


Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the


EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in


education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?


Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to


deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a


whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped


together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not


centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,


I do except there were communities, and when people see their


communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people, you


have got to deal with that. Yes, I agree, but the answer is not to get


out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not


fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the


campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people


understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the


problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,


jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving


Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come


is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by


reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that


realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This


morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie


Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting


to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should


there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.


-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than


I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the


Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am


not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony


Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting


troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP,


Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called


on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. -- for mayor.


Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.


She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events


Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister


in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the


UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet


minister. With me now is the former


Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under


Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the


referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going


to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from


now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory


for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that


this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum


clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality


is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the


European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen


agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a


nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We


will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the


drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language


you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European


Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should


not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in


Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a


debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on


Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British


phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the


direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the


Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that


was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within


the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel


has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,


one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you


can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that


the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of


events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered


reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard


European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great


Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal


does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an


organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the


very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work


together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the


biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something


which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage


the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon


start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative


Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on


Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an


excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round


the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of


admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his


decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new


arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be


undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?


I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of


admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would


give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris


Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so


I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and


Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a


leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point, so


far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European


Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to


show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that


we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be


quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single


model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a


different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of


relationship within the European Union. This will be another


different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When


people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single


financial market, the answer is, why not? You need to show why. Everyone


has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in


the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of


self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and


straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the


benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things


that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of


movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it


is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many


parts of the political spectrum, both in Britain and across the EU.


What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,


people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we


have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just


in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but


the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign


ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling


Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald


Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has


not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you


listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in


a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,


they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest


neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect


on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by


all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what


is in their collective self-interest, then I think you


start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not


need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to


be part of the negotiating team? I have not. Would you say yes? You


have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the


EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics


and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really


matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is


the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key


negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it


needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive


and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive


vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will


need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as


the role as leader of the party. Francis Maude, thank you very much.


Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP


who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy


Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk


we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No


more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having


second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am


joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave


campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?


We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would


like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign


Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European


partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably


when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the


existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins


the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the


autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to


put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,


established a trade department. We will want to see as members of


Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a


Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is


preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see


what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so


that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in


the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we


begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new


Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from


the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of


the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would


bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see


a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of


January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European


leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the


commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the


discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal


discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal


talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or


a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.


What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not


answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the


Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year. You


will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no


one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You


are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out


some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering


Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon


because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in


those discussions. The brothel -- Brussels bureaucracy regard as


impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got


to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in


this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for


instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the


Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who


understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,


Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter


Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we


need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what


preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel


Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan


Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical


decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of


honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week


to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of


course that is only available once we have actually left the European


Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the


Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have


now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and


what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were


reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they


could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like


160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls


to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes


off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be


taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar


to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be


involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the


MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a


range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at


the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes


all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the


system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,


first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six


candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to


decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until


November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has


huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks


under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger


article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end


of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having


that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it


might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for


the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,


William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't


decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have


spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're


hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I


might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank


you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a


pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also


a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again


behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in


someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting


it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair


was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I


was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the


old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early


to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.


Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very


close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point? No,


and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we


start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out


predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,


Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,


not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.


Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the


kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I


will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them


voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What


do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been


saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has


demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but


pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I


think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be


a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a


leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by


the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob


Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.


I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration


Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy


shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can


He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.


Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared


The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market


has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.


The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement


I love this country and I feel honoured to have


The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,


David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation


on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership


To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be


If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down


via first past the post, until they are left


Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,


said to be about 150,000 strong, who decide the winner


David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place


by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts


But it will be the backbench 1922 Committee which decides


They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.


I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party


Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the


EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may


be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to


decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the


Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to


have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It


may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote


for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all


who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just


unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to


remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think


that will come into the equation because the country has voted to


leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has


moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are


the main candidate in your view? Who knows, because no one has put


themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe


Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from


her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including


Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George


Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has


made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because


with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of


democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential


challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we


are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in


terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is


dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it


will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal


with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a


party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get


its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue


has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime


ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there


any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it


doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we


should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,


pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously


the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss


other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make


of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs


rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the


wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st


with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference


if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until


the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then


whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of


November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the


membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing


a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the


country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism


at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short


list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a


leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country


needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very


much. It's not just Her


Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks


of Plates also appear to be


shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn


sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night


and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting


of the The secret ballot will not


have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden


others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum


against their leader. So far, MPs, including


Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,


have already said they However, in order to depose


a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have


to put themselves forward, and receive the support


of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,


so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing


to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures


that level of support, a contest will be held


at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool


at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter


the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,


one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered


supporters. If more than two candidates stand,


voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%


on first preference, the last placed candidate


is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets


above the threshold. We are now hearing that another


Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of


the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to


be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.


With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.


Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a


time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when


nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for


the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of


composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be


thinking about the nation first. What is happening in your Shadow


Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a


Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities


than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the


defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to


be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is


happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for


me but the important thing is we remain


me but the important thing is we me but the important thing is we


remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important


thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at


what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to


show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall


times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership


challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues


in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they


seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the


referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that


Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory


in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the


campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David


Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in


this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David


Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about


his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being


blue on blue. When I spoke Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics


in Northern Ireland. The die has been cast and the UK


has voted to leave the EU. But with years


of negotiations ahead, there will almost


certainly be profound implications I'll be asking the Finance Minister


and the Economy Minister for their thoughts


after these momentous few days. We'll hear from the Secretary


of State, Theresa Villiers - a leading figure


in the Leave campaign, of course. Plus our official opposition


parties and Alliance, and also Dublin and Scotland


as the reverberations continue. And with me throughout


with their thoughts, Professor David Phinnemore


and Felicity Huston. Northern Ireland voted strongly


for Remain on Thursday, but that made no difference


to the overall result which has caused shockwaves across Europe,


cost the Prime Minister his job, and thrown the future


of the Leader of the Opposition will also have


major implications here. So how will the two Executive


parties manage the change? Joining me now are Simon Hamilton


and Mairtin O Muilleoir. Welcome. It is an unfolding


situation this morning. Lots of developments in London, as far as


the Labour Party is concerned, and possible developers in Scotland as


well. The DUP is a Unionist party looking at the potential break-up of


the UK. At that be a good thing from your point of view? Let's see what


happens. It is a rapidly changing and unfolding situation. Clearly,


there are issues in respect of Scotland and what Nicola Sturgeon


has said. The Scottish people made a clear decision in the last few


years, they wanted to remain within the European union. That is a matter


for them in concert with the UK government to take forward. The


people of the United Kingdom have taken a clear decision in respect of


wanting to leave. I respect and understand that there are many


people who have concerns about what it means for Northern Ireland, first


and foremost, but for also the rest of the UK as well. We have got to


deal with that decision. One thing that is clear, particularly from the


Prime Minister's announcement on Friday, this will take a long period


of time to work its way through. Remain campaigners throughout this


process said, if you thought to leave, it will be a leap in the


dark. And it has turned out to be a leap in the dark because there are


so many unknowns. We don't know what will happen on so many issues. We


could have a conversation about the next couple of hours and not reach


any conclusions. There are also various campaigners who were


spectating on doom and gloom which did not happen straight away. We


have to deal with the decision in a way that is best for Northern


Ireland. We need to remain calm and get some stability. We have had a


pretty fractious debate at a national level. The decision has


been taken. We need to work through what is best for Northern Ireland.


All of the parts of the UK need to be part of the negotiations, to work


together. We have a border with the EU. We need to be part of the


negotiations to get the best deal for Northern Ireland. Do you accept


that broad thrust, that we are where we are, we have to work through it


step-by-step. There are parts of that but I accept. I want to commend


those who voted to Remain. It is not often that Green and orange unite.


It is the great heart. It does not matter, does it? I think the


Scottish voted our vote does make it difference. I take my mandate from


the people of the North who voted overwhelmingly to stay. That


aspiration, as Nicola Sturgeon described it, but demand that we


should be with Europe, that is how I will beg I did in the time ahead.


I'm not conceding that the decision of the bulk of people in England,


had their play to them, means that we have to leave as well. How will


you try to put a spanner in the works? We will need to talk with


common purpose. I know he was cheering on the fans, so he has lost


his voice. There are things that give us common purpose. You have to


respect the mandate, you have to respect the boat. You have to ask


the people, did the consent to Brexit. They did not consent, and


that has to guide me. You both want to work together to get the best


deal, but you do not accept the basic premise that the UK has voted


to leave the European Union. How can you work together when you don't


except the basic verdict? I'm not disputing that a majority of the UK


and thought Italy. The most important thing to me, and where I


will take my lead from, is that most of the people here, orange and


Green, the business community, the entrepreneurs, those who benefit in


the border region, those who benefit from life sciences funding from


Europe, the voted to remain. I requested contingency papers from my


department, in the key areas around the economy, read European funding,


around our negotiation with the Treasury. We reviewed those on


Friday, we took Stark and it is our view that everything has changed. --


we took Stark. There were 14 consecutive pages of


chaos and crisis was not in this no man's land, it is our job to get the


best deal. Our negotiation assignment is not only with the


British government, as it negotiates Brexit, but also on the other side


of the table. There are Irish citizens here, 1.8 million of them,


so we have do meet on the other side of the table as well. That is for


another day. He has got his departmental officials together, and


he has looked at the numbers and he is trying to act the way forward.


What about the Executive meeting? Any plans for that tomorrow? That


would seem obvious. We are making this week. But not tomorrow? I don't


think there is one scheduled. She it not be? People are working through


the ramifications in their department. I'm sure all about


Executive colleagues are trying to understand them. We are trying to


understand the applications for each of their departments. As we prepare


for that, senior officials in the civil service are talking to their


counterparts in Whitehall, talking about counterparts in Brussels as


well, to work through all of this and see what it means in the


short-term. Particularly to prepare for those negotiations in this


turmoil. The Deputy First Minister Martin


McGuinness is being interviewed A majority people in the North,


unionist, nationalists and republicans wish to remain in


Europe. That cannot be ignored by the British Gutman, the Irish


government or the powers that be in the European Union. What we do need


in future isn't island of Ireland solution to the problem. That


requires the attention of the Taoiseach in particular. I was


disturbed in the course of the last few days whenever the Taoiseach


focused on how so pathetic the Irish, to be to a British government


that was negotiating its way out of the European Union in the next few


years. The he should have been focusing on the Democratic wishes of


people. I spoke to them on Friday and I have arranged an urgent


meeting with the Taoiseach. There is an overwhelming desire following


that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, in the EU. Why would that


translate to an overwhelming desire for Irish unification? It is


something that I think could be conducted at the very -- in a very


civilised fashion. As it was conducted in Scotland. There is an


overwhelming desire, stated just from the boat last Thursday for what


you are calling for? I didn't say that there was. What I did say was


that I do believe that exercise is one that should be undertaken at


some stage in the future. The immediate focus needs to be on how


we continue our relationship with the European Union. That is where my


focus is. That is why I think the discussions with the Taoiseach are


urgent, and require immediate attention. As do discussions with


the powers that be at the European Union. Whenever you consider the


position of Scotland, which is also over worming the -- which has all


overwhelmingly voted to remain. They need to take the Democratic wishes


of the people in Northern Ireland into account. That is a negotiation


with the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Taoiseach, when asked about the


border poll, he said there are more immediate problems to deal with, and


that is where the focus should live. My focus lies on how we need to


maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you're not


interested in the border poll? We do believe that there should be a


border poll at some stage in the future. I think in the immediate


future the focus needs to be on the whole issue of how we can maintain a


relationship with Europe, which has been so beneficial to us over the


course of the last number of decades. Whenever you consider the


dangers for us in terms of the dangers to our ability to develop


our economy, the dangers to the prospect of border controls, which I


think would represent a very serious undermining of the Good Friday


Agreement. The whole issue of foreign direct investment, which is


threatened by the decision to pull out of Europe, particularly from


North America. These are the issues Chuck being exercised at the moment.


But you cannot do that unless there was some sort of referendum on Irish


unification. You cannot do that from within the UK since the UK has noted


as a whole to leave. There needs to be special arrangements, which take


account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of


the North of Ireland. And the people of Scotland, who wished to remain,


and maintain our contacts and ability to work with very senior


officials and government authorities within Europe. So I think that, from


my perspective, in the immediate future, although you are focused on


the issue of the border poll, and we do believe they should be won at


some stage in the future, the immediate task has to be how the


democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the North of


Ireland can be catered for in the context of this huge debate which


will ensue over the course of the next number of months. We are very


disturbed that the British Prime Minister has clearly indicated that


there will be no engagement with Europe on the whole issue of Article


50 until there is a new Prime Minister. Thank you.


So that was the deputy First Minister in our foil studio talking


to joke Cockburn in London. I want to pick up on that final


point. He talked about the need for special arrangements for people in


Scotland, but here in Northern Ireland in particular, to allow for


the democratic wishes of people here to continue to have links with the


European Union to be accommodated. Can that be done? The negotiations


which will start at some point in the future, weather there is a new


premise that is -- when there is a new Prime Minister in place, that is


the right way to do that. I think we as an Executive should be going to


those negotiations, making it clear to the new Prime Minister, the gamut


in London, and to the European commission, that there are


particular circumstances in Northern Ireland. We need to recognise the


system of government that we have, the aspect of our economy which have


different needs to England or Scotland or Wales, and the fact we


will have a border will which is going to be the border of the


European Union. It is an important border, one which we have made


significant progress on in recent years, and we don't want to see that


go backwards. But can we have a bespoke solution to this problem?


Surely... People at home will be saying, these words are interesting,


but you are either in the EU or you are not in the ice. Either you are


in the United Kingdom, not estimate you cannot have a foot in every cap.


Absolutely. We will remain as part of the United Kingdom, but the


decision has been made to leave the EU. We do need... We'll be missing


an opportunity not to go into these negotiations and say, while we have


to deal with the decision that has been made, there must be a tailoring


of options for Northern Ireland. He was the point for you. We hear that


Arlene Foster took a phone call from David Cameron on Friday, I think, at


Stormont Castle. He assured her that the devolved assemblies to, the


devolved government would have some sort of input in the negotiations


that Simon Hamilton is referring to that. He can only speak on behalf of


the office alongside the Debbie to First Minister. They take


diametrically opposed positions on the Mrs of the European Union. How


will that work? They were both in that call with Mr Cameron, and


whatever our lack of confidence in what he says, negotiating for us,


God forbid, would be Boris Johnson or Michael Gove. It could be! We


need to be front and centre to those negotiations. I disagree that we


have to be in or out. Our status within the UK is not the same of


Sunderland Newcastle, we do have a set of arrangements here which


opportunity to Europe. I will not concede that our people voted to,


because they did not. I remain determined to defend... So you are


looking for a bespoke solution? I am not saying that. People here voted


to remain. Quickly. I spoke to the CBI, there will be a recession,


people will go down to the dull centres. The people who rebounded to


remain will fight to defend... Martin McGuinness was out on Friday,


saying that we have to have the border poll, not backed by Arlene


Foster or the Secretary of State. Interesting there, saying that is


not my number one priority. Is that falling back in terms of importance


for Sinn Fein? We are still for a border poll, and we do believe this


special set of circumstances are giving people pause to reflect,


North and south of it. I have confidence that as we start these


negotiations, I spoke to the Finance Minister of Scotland on Friday about


this matter as well. Whatever happens to Sunderland and London,


they will remain wedded to the rest of this Ireland. The House of


Commons ultimately has to vote on this issue. It has to sign off on


it. As I understand it, reading stuff over the weekend, about 160 of


the MPs are pro-leave. Do you think that is about the Easter happen? The


except that the leave camp might lose it? Even the issue of saying


for certain that the United Kingdom is leaving the EU is not something


we can say at this stage? The Labour Party have more important things to


worry about, with what has happened this morning, but parliamentarians


who would disrespect the views of the clear instructions given to them


by the British people will be making a huge mistake. I completely


understand the concerns of many people, particularly in Northern


Ireland, who voted to remain. You're going to disregard their views?


We're not going to. That is the difficulty. You are supposed to be


negotiating on this place, whether you call it Northern Ireland or the


North of Ireland, on behalf of all of the people. Some want to stay,


some want to leave. There is not much common ground. If I may, this


common purpose is that we both want the best deal for the people you


represent. Your best deal is not go into be his best deal. There are


unionists and nationalists on both side of the vote on Thursday. What


we have to do it agree on, and we can discussion our positions on the


border and England and so on, we had differences on those. What we are


united on is getting the best for Northern Ireland. What we have to do


is to have some calmness and stability in the next couple of


weeks and discuss what is best for Northern Ireland in the discussions


that will take place will stop I fundamentally believe there are huge


opportunities for Northern Ireland in the new dispensation that will


take place. We have to have those special circumstances that we have


acknowledged. We need to look at where we are spending the money to


increase the levels of investment that are coming into Northern


Ireland, unshackled from the geography of Brussels. Let me ask


you this about the House of Lords. Very quickly, the House of Lords EU


committee, it applies a while ago, it made clear that the Scottish


Parliament's consent would be required and due to the European


committees act being entrenched in the devolution settlement is of


Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no need for consent... Not only


would Westminster have to give consent, but so would Stormont and


Edinburgh. Is that right? They did not cover that piece of uncertainty.


Is that a valid point? I suspect it is. It is among the many points.


There were a million questions to be asked. What I would say to the


DUP... Do you accept that that is something, an obstacle you will have


to over come in the weeks to come question Mike I have not had a


chance to look at it. The parliament is sovereign. You are not talking


about it on the terraces question they were. There was a concern about


exiting from the European championship. The British people


have made a clear decision. People of Northern Ireland took a clear


decision. We have got to respect the clear decision they made and we need


to do with it in a way that produces the best possible outcome. He have


to leave it there. Let's hear from my


guests of the day, Felicity Huston


and David Phinnemore. David, you are an academic in this a


area of study. Does there need to be a vote in the House of Commons on


this issue? Does Parliament have the final say? What about the House of


Lords EU committee suggestion that also Scotland and Northern Ireland


would have do give support for the withdrawal to take place question


Mike the issue we have got is that we have never been in this position


before and there is no clarity around the procedures. There is an


argument that it is up to the Prime Minister to trigger it. As for


whether the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly would have


to approve as well, but is unclear. Totally unclear. Given the pressure


which is coming from Scotland, the principle of consent, I think


politically if not legally, there is a strong argument to say that all of


because different elements of the UK would need to support the decision.


That is cleared the case at the moment. It is unclear. It is not


laid down in any statute or any legislation. Where are you this


morning? You were and if you just tick Lever. -- you were an


enthusiastic Leave campaigner. Did you think we would have this absence


of clarity on Sunni France? There was a surprise that Leave one


because the media, the polls, the bookies, the political class at all


said that it would not win. I gather Boris Johnson thought on Thursday


evening... Nigel Farage conceded defeat. He is a flaky individual at


the best of times. It was a big surprise. The reason there was such


a, what happens now? Is because people did not think it would


happen. You could not run a government without sophisticated


civil servants saying, Minister, do we not have to have a look at the


alternatives? Surely that must have been going on. What happens now?


WSDL have the lack of clarity. We have turmoil within the Conservative


party, within the Labour Party as well. We know what is happening in


Scotland. That is developing. The issue is whether this is dealt with


in a hurry, as some people suggest, or as Angela Merkel suggested


yesterday, there is no rush, let's not be hasty, let's work it through


step-by-step. At the moment, it seems to be a bit of both of those.


It is, again, we are in uncharted territory. You're getting a solid


position coming out of the European union is situations, demanding that


Cameron signal as soon as the what his intention is. I think there is


some Flex ability from Angela Merkel. But she is indicating that


it is to be by the end of this year, Article 50 triggered, but then you


are into the two dear period when the negotiations will have to take


place. What we also need to bear in mind is there is a long process


associated with that in terms of developing what the new glacial ship


would be. There is a series of negotiations which need to take


place. If you got through the withdrawal within two yes, there is


a longer process of establishing the relationship. One of the key issues


is not just looking at the imprecations but what we want from


the future agreement. Would you like it to be quick, even


if it is painful? Or do you accept this could go on? I don't think it


should go on because I think people who voted Leave have an expectation


that things are going to happen. If nothing happens, I think that is


very dangerous for the country. Thanks both -


we'll hear more from you later. As we heard earlier,


the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, quickly rejected


Sinn Fein calls for a border poll. Thank you very much indeed for


joining us on the programme. Martin McGuinness just said to my colleague


it is not the number one priority as far as I am concerned but it


continues to be an issue. Sinn Fein have always wanted a border poll,


why do you continue to rule it out? Sinn Fein have a very long-standing


position that they support a border poll but the Belfast agreement is


clear that the conditions that require me to call one are the


belief that there is likely to be a majority for a united Ireland. I


don't believe there are such grounds, therefore the conditions


are not met and the border poll would therefore not be appropriate.


We do not know, because this is an evolving situation, and it could


just be that the rug has been pulled from nationalists in Northern


Ireland, as far as the future relationship between this place and


the European Union is concerned, and perhaps someday but who are genomic


have been supportive of remaining in the UK could be changing their


position. The only way to change and test that is to have a border poll.


There are so many challenges in Northern Ireland that would not be


helped by a border poll. It does not suit your purposes, be honest about


it. What we want is a period of stability to prepare for the


negotiations and engaging with the Northern Ireland executive will be


crucial for that because they will be the recipients of many of the


powers that are going to be coming back to the United Kingdom. They


will be taking decisions on how to support our farmers. They need to be


at the start of these negotiations. That is why the Prime Minister


emphasised that this process would involve engagements with the


devolved governments. The difficulty for you now is that you are out of


step with the people of Northern Ireland. You were a significant


figure in the Leave campaign but people voted to remain by 56% - 44%.


Can you stay in your job? I can, and we need to remember that several


thousand people in Northern Ireland voted to leave. I don't think it is


unreasonable for the Secretary of State to hold the same they were on


this matter as the First Minister, who has just been re-elected with a


significant personal mandate in the Assembly election. We need to work


together, those of us on both sides of the debate, to get the best terms


for the UK on exiting the European Union, in particular to safeguard


Northern Ireland's interests, to keep that land border open, and to


retain our status as a great place to do business with the rest of


Europe. I am confident we can do that and I will be in gauging


widely, not just with politicians but with the business community.


Would you not be very concerned that on the issue of foreign direct


investment, Northern Ireland is unlikely to be as attractive


tomorrow as it was last Wednesday? For the moment, nothing changes at


all, but there are huge opportunities for Northern Ireland


in the event of the Brexit taking place. We take control over trade


deals, that means great opportunities for doing business


with the rest of the world, but we will get a good radio with the


European Union. There is a free-trade zone that stretches


between Iceland and the Russian border. We will be part of its own


Northern Ireland will still be a fantastic place to invest in, to


create jobs and do business with the rest of Europe and the rest of the


world. But the point is, there was clarity before, anybody wanting to


invest in Northern Ireland and create jobs were sure this was an


entry point to the rest of the European Union. That is not the case


in future and therefore Northern Ireland is not necessarily as


attractive to international investors as it was before. But


there will be clarity because we will get eight radio. There may be,


but there is not at the moment, that is the point. The European Union


sells far more to us than we sell to them. And we will be preparing with


care for the negotiations to star in due course. It is very important


that every effort is made to do those preparations. I am working


with my officials, I have spoken to the First Minister and the Deputy


First Minister already. I have a constructive discussion with Charlie


Flanagan. The finance minister is vigorously shaking his head in the


studio. I have never heard a Secretary of State so out of touch


with ordinary people on the ground. The damage that has been done to


business confidence by this determination to drive us out of


Europe. I can tell you that it is my resolve not to be dragged out of


Europe and to accept the mandate given by remain in the time ahead. I


want to be part of the negotiations, I don't want to be part of your


team, I want an executive team. How do you respond to that? There is the


nature of the problem you are now facing. It is not as simple as you


are suggesting it will be. I believe it will be very important for the


Northern Ireland executive to be part of this process. What we need


to do now is to have an inclusive process which takes on the concerns


of remain voters as well as leave voters. I believe that we can, a


Brexit vote does not mean we pull up the drawbridge, we become


isolationist. Of course the UK will still be outward looking, it will


have a global approach, it will be trading with the European Union and


the rest of the world, and it will be engaging on it friendly way on a


whole range of issues with the European Union. That is the


assurance we need to give to people who voted Remain. That is a


discussion that will continue in the months ahead. There is a breaking


situation this morning. Nicola Sturgeon says the Scottish


Parliament could veto British exit from the European Union. She


believes Hollywood -- Holyrood would have two support it and she would


ask MSPs to refuse such legislative consent. How do you deal with that


one? Parliament is sovereign but in the weeks and months ahead, we will


be working with both the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland


executive on all these issues, but ultimately it is parliament's


decision whether we repeal the 1972 act or whether we don't. And if


parliament is sovereign, does that mean the Labour MP David Lammy is


right to say that MPs have to sign off on a British exit from the


European Union, you need to have a vote, and with the current make-up


you would struggle big time to get that book through because, as I


understand it, there is an overwhelming majority of MPs in


support of remain. But we had a vote as a United Kingdom, we voted to


leave the European Union, and I hope that parliament will respect that


decision. Very good to talk to you. It wasn't just Northern Ireland


which voted to Remain. Scotland also gave the pro-EU side


a strong endorsement. People there voted 62% to 38%


to stay, and now Nicola Sturgeon has begun the process for a second


Scottish independence referendum. This is what she had to say this


morning on the Andrew Marr Show. My challenge now as First Minister


is to work out how I best protect Scotland's interests, how I try to


prevent as being taken out of the European Union against our will with


all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences that will


entail. Independence is not my starting point in this. Protecting


Scotland's interests is my starting point, but if it is the case that


looking again at the question of independence becomes the only way in


which we can protect Scotland's interests, that is a debate and a


conversation and a decision the people of Scotland have a right to


take over the next period, but in all of this, it is about protecting


Scotland's interests. If we do find ourselves in a position of looking


again at the independence question this is not going to be a rewritten


of the 2014 referendum. The contest has changed dramatically. The UK


Scotland voted to remain within in 2014 does not exist any more.


Whatever happens with Scotland, this issue of a border is going to have


to be resolved in the context of Ireland. Some of these issues that


would arise for Scotland, not all of them, I accept, but some of them


arise anyway in the Irish context and are going to have to be


resolved. These are issues that are live. I don't want to see in any


circumstances a border between Scotland and England. Whatever


happens, England is our nearest neighbour and I hope will be our


best friend. Scotland's First Minister,


Nicola Sturgeon. Dublin has also expressed concern


about the potential impact of Brexit to the Fianna Fail TD,


Declan Brennock. But first let's go to Glasgow


and journalist Gerry Braiden. Thank you very much for joining us.


Let's just talk about this developing story with Nicola


Sturgeon and where she believes that there is legislative consent


required from Scotland, from Holyrood, to remove the UK from the


European Union and she would not recommend MSPs to give that


legislative consent. How significant is that? The fact that this notion


has only been doomed around in the last 24 hours and that the First


Minister put this into the public domain three days after the vote


tells a story in itself. It seems the case that the Scotland act of


$1998 appeared to set out that Scotland would require, Scotland has


the power to veto this, but this has been knocking around for 18 years


and it is only now we are talking about this. It seems to be that we


are looking at the future on the hoof. What we have is an


interpretation of the Act and it is not as prescriptive as it might


appear at this juncture. We have just been speaking to the Secretary


of State and she absolutely rejected the First Minister of Scotland's


position on this and she said parliament is sovereign and it is


absolutely not to say it, it is to Westminster to decide. Everything


that we are facing over the last three days, we are in absolutely


uncharted terrain, and the fact we are only talking about this now, it


seems like someone has just brought this into the mix and it remains to


be seen whether there is any validity to this interpretation. I


would not like to say that Theresa Villiers is right or Nicola Sturgeon


is right but the fact it is out there suggest it is a story. What is


the mood in Scotland this morning? We have just been hearing from


Martin McGuinness who said, as far as he is concerned, somehow or


other, the government in Westminster has to find a way to acknowledge the


views of people in Northern Ireland want this place to remain part of


the European Union, so we have got to come up with some sort of bespoke


solution. Is that the mood where you are? Very much so. The 2014


referendum continues to dominate Scottish politics and it was always


going to be the case that in the event of a Brexit, it would very


much come back into the mix. Some are very notable polls this morning,


synonymous with an elderly readership, socially conservative,


59% of people are now voting to leave the UK. 47% of whom are


pensioners. The Sunday Herald, it was the only paper to back


independence in 2014 and it has a deeper sense of 35,000 people who


answered their poll saying they would also backed leave. And most


significantly, the daily record, traditional Labour supporting paper,


pretty pro-UK in the run-up to the 2014 election, and was also the


newspaper promising enhanced devolution, it is in favour of a


second referendum and has suggested it would also suggested it would


support to leave the UK. There is very significant traction in that


direction. But at the moment, still very much a terrain where there is a


lot more dark than light. Not hopelessness but very much that the


default position is that people believe another referendum will


happen. Very interesting to hear your thoughts. Let's hear now from


Declan Brennan. Thank you very much for talking to us. Are we looking at


the creation of a new relationship between the UK and the Republic of


Ireland, and by definition Northern Ireland having new relationships


with Great Britain and the South as well? Firstly, I would like to


express disappointment on the decision. I think it is a


regrettable move and a retrograde step but we as the Republic respect


the decision. I personally believe that the conversation around


independence should be changed to our interdependence as two islands


on the periphery of Europe. It is my view and that of my party that we


first of all need to get into serious discussions. I think


everybody talks about calm and what I would consider chaos. I prefer to


say that it is incumbent on us to ensure stability, firstly in the


political system, secondly in our economic, and most importantly in


the legal framework. I listened very intently to what Theresa Villiers


had to say and I think you should replay it. She said in the event of


an exit, I think it is dawning of realism yet that this


interdependence needs to be guaranteed both from a north and


South perspective in terms of making sure that nobody on this island


suffers and I do think that when one looks at the 80,000 instruments that


are there within the make-up of the European Union, so many


imponderables. An interesting piece written


yesterday in the Guardian, in which he said that the English have placed


a bomb under the peace process. His point was that it now calls into


question so much that was nailed down in the 1998 Good Friday


Agreement, that it is impossible to say now that relations between those


who were signatories to that and the sovereign governments involved, will


continue, and that nationalists in Northern Ireland may choose to take


a different view about their position in the UK after Brexit. Do


you think he was making a valid point question of unionists have


dismissed it. But a lot of nationalists say he was capturing


the zeitgeist will stop the impact that the EU has had both financially


and in various parts of industry and the all Ireland economy, it is in


serious difficulty. When you take that Britain has white 350 billion


of its finance, which is equivalent to 15 years of their contribution to


the EU, I think that this island and its incumbent on Theresa Villiers


and the foreign affairs Minister to work out how best we can ensure that


we can still walk with the EU -- work with the EU. From a southern


viewpoint, we are committed to EU. Most of the parties in the South


want to be able to facilitate oration ship with


Northern Ireland. There are indications for students in the


South what in colleges in the UK. I think people will begin to look at


what who is suffering and where sovereignty should apply.


Interesting to hear your thoughts. Thank you.


We've heard what the two Executive parties plan to do


what about the two opposition parties and Alliance?


With me in the studio are Mike Nesbitt, Naomi Long


and, from our Foyle studio, Colum Eastwood.


Morning tea will. Thank you for joining us. Let's talk about this


Nicola Sturgeon line. She says that Hollywood has to give legislative


consent to the UK pulling out of the European Union. There was a


suggestion from elsewhere that Stormont would have to do likewise.


What is your reading of that situation? I think it is probably


true that Stormont would have do last summer legislative consent


motion at the minimum. What happened has created a new age of


uncertainty, and that will last longer than two years. That could


last between five and ten years before we reach a solid state. One


certainty is that the people have spoken and they have told us what to


do, so we will have do manage that. What we need is certainty. There are


two audiences we had to listen to carefully in Northern Ireland. Young


people, because a lot of them are very angry with this result, and


also nationalists, because the point is well made that there are a number


of nationalists who over recent years have been relaxed about their


aspiration for United Ireland. We have seen that as an aspiration


rather than something they wish to act upon to make a reality. They are


angry and we need to listen to those voices. We also need to ask the


First Minister, when she goes to the negotiations, is she going to


reflect the fact that 56% of the people wanted to remain? The Prime


Minister, representing all the people of the United Kingdom, lost


the referendum and resigned. The First Minister, lost the referendum


and celebrated. Naomi Long, do you believe that MLAs, MSP 's have a


right to vote on this after the referendum result? They have a right


to but it is about moral authority. Do you think they are right to block


it? They have the right, because Arnott has primacy. You are at odds


with what the Secretary of State has said? She has said that they have


primacy. They could vote not to leave, but they would have no moral


authority to do so, having held a referendum, having taken the view of


the people for the United kingdom, which is to leave. You talk about


Hollywood and you talk about the Assembly and what the have to do is


a number of things. There may be an LCM in terms of how we get consent


to leave. We also have the opportunity to make decisions over


specific European union rules and laws which actually apply in


Northern Ireland which would again each have to be voted on here.


However, Parliament remains with primacy. It can take back power from


Hollywood, it can take back power from the Assembly. Let's not kid


ourselves. If it sets its face to do this, while Beacon put up a strong


argument against, Parliament retains primacy. Is that how you see it? No,


we have been studying this in the last couple of days. We don't think


the cat macro leave campaign have thought this through. They did not


think they would win. They are now having to consider this. The


Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have the chance


to say no. The European Union is stitched into the Good Friday


Agreement and do our institutions and our laws. We will not be leaving


the campaign -- we will not give them the chance to ride roughshod


over the democratic process in Northern Ireland. They see it as the


opposite. They would say you are endeavouring to ride roughshod over


the referendum. I know what the blood Northern Ireland, the people


of Scotland and what all young people said. But people in the UK


said that they wanted to leave. I know that people in Northern Ireland


voted to stay. We will do every thing in our power, and we need to


get together to discuss this, we will do everything to stop us


leaving bigger penal union. I know people here and in Scotland and the


young people, that it will be good for us in the future. I'm not about


to let the Tories decide our future. There is no dispute that those of us


who were on the Remain site won the referendum in Northern Ireland, but


it was a UK wide referendum. The UK Parliament still has primacy in


these matters. We will want to... It is a non-binding referendum. They


can make their own decision. It can be another government that make that


decision. Just to be clear, you are saying that Parliament is suffering,


and in future Parliament, either with this government or another


government, could vote to overturn the referendum to have a second


referendum. Is that what you are saying? In theory, but they would


have no moral authority to do that unless the sort it from the people.


By general election? That or a second referendum. They'll have to


be a package of measures with Europe. The country may want to put


that to the people and get their consent. We don't know, is the truth


of this. We don't do what the Government will do. The Liberal


Democrats say they will stand on a platform to overturn the decision.


There already people coming out and saying they stand for this was the


what will your MPs in West Mr and Stormont do? You cannot say that


this is not binding. We said to the people, this is your chance to


say... It is not a binding referendum, that is a fact. To go


back to the people and say, it is not a binding referendum at this


stage would be to undermine the process, and it is in a bad way


already. There was a UK wide referendum. But what do you say to


those who say they are committed to the people of Northern Ireland? The


people here said they wanted to remain. We have to deal with that.


What do you do? It is a bespoke solution, is that it? We have to


understand why people wanted to remain and why people wanted to


leave or stop we have do listen to the angry voices, nationalists and


young people particularly. We do need a bit spoke package. Is that


what we need? I have been saying since Friday morning that the point


of this is the actual reality is very different from what some people


have been saying. The idea that we can force a border on this island


again is nonsense. We could not do it where -- when there were


thousands of troops there, and we cannot do it now. Even David Cameron


has said that it would not be possible to enforce a border here.


That is why we need to think practically and positively about how


we can remain in the EU and have all of the advantages that allows us to


have. The border will be around Britain and not across the island.


That is a reality that the DUP and others need to wake up to. That is


not a decision that people in England were taking into account. I


use an pennies to be some sort of Boulder pol? -- are you saying there


needs to be some sort of border poll? I am an Irish nationalists and


I believe in the relocation of our country. I want a border poll that


we can win. This is not the time for that. This is a time for addressing


the serious and grave concerns of people in my constituency and is the


disease across the North, about us leaving the European Union. We are


not about to let that wrecked our communities and businesses. We are


looking at the potential break-up of the United Kingdom. We have got


meltdown within the Tory party, meltdown within the Labour Party,


course from nationalists for a border poll, on clear relationships


within these islands. Talk about a hard border between Ireland and the


rest of the UK. What are you saying to people today who support the


Ulster Unionist Party, some of whom were leave voters, some of whom were


remain voters, who are scratching their heads and wondering what is


going on? The priority is beyond any of the local parties. The priority


is the fact that the leaders of the only two parties capable of leading


the country from Downing Street are lame ducks. That needs sorting out.


I understand that we are about to lose out Shadow Secretary of State,


a good man. I would say he will be gone before the day is out. I'm


hearing from my colleagues that he is considering his position. We have


two lame ducks leading the Conservative and Labour party. In


terms of stability and certainty, that is the number one priority.


That will take months to resolve. What do we do in the meantime? The


Executive have do form an opinion on this, and we have to go forward with


a single voice. At the moment, we have two first ministers. One was


Remain one was Brexit. One is celebrating the result, the First


Minister of Scotland is saying they will fight. Do we need and emergency


Executive meeting? It is not for me to say, but I'm surprised they have


not met already. What happens, surely at this stage the Executive


should be together, trying to plan what the common purpose of any


negotiating team that we had involved and that will be. I have to


go back a bit, there are precedents for this. The kingdom of Denmark


includes the Faroe Islands and Greenland, which are not members of


the EU, but Denmark itself is. But there is a land border here. Of


course. You don't need to tell me, I argued this all along but people


dismissed it as nonsense. The idea that we won't have customs posts,


I'm sorry, I drove from France to switch the land last week, there are


customs posts. That is a reality of the situation. People were in denial


about the chaos that would ensue. I have to say, I listened very


carefully to Simon Hamilton this morning. He dismissed the volatility


of the markets. Perhaps he should bear in mind that the pound may have


bounced back against the euro because the euro is also now in


trouble. It has not bounced back against the dollar the Canadian


dollar or the yen. That is for businesses that are dealing with


American companies as we sit here now.


Do we need to see the Executive meeting as soon as possible to try


and indicate, if nothing else, that it is trying to get to grips with


the situation as far as Northern Ireland is concerned? We absolutely


do but we also need to bring together all the parties in Northern


Ireland that understand the devastating impact that a Brexit


would have for us. I have spoken at a very senior level and they


understand and they need to be our biggest advocates in these


negotiations because they have a very strong hand to play. And we


should not underestimate how strong our hand is as well. We will not


make it easy for Northern Ireland to be dragged out of the European


Union. Let's hear a few final thoughts


from Felicity Huston We have heard a lot of people


talking about the need to consider the wider picture and not rush into


anything. What do you think needs to happen now? It could take years. I


am shocked to find the executive does not have a meeting arranged for


Monday morning. Whatever way the vote went, surely they were going to


talk about it. I would like to see our Executive sitting down first


thing tomorrow morning. There might not be a tremendous meeting of


minds. Their departments will have papers prepared on this stuff and


they need to sit down and talk about it and discuss whether it needs to


go through the Assembly. They really should be getting on with it. You


said earlier we are in uncharted waters, David. What do you make of


what Nicola Sturgeon has said this morning on our Scottish sister


programme that she thinks legislative consent is needed in


Holyrood and she will not be recommending to her party members


that they should give it? Is it a game-changing? I think it is. I


think if a precedent is set there, others might follow. Politically, it


is very difficult to see us giving consent to leave without some


discussion in the Assembly. And what did you make of what Theresa


Villiers had to say? Parliament is sovereign, she believes, but she


does not think Parliament has the moral authority to have a second


referendum or to say that the result of this referendum does not stand.


Possibly not yet but we don't know where we are going to be in two


years' time when we know the terms of the exit and the new agreement.


There are lots of unknowns here. A final thought from you, Felicity? I


am going to be the only person in the room was going to have an


opportunity to have say on who our next Prime Minister is. Who will you


be backing? Boris Johnson? Priti Patel. I think she is a wonderful


woman. But I fear it will not be her.


That's it from Sunday Politics after a momentous few days.


Stormont Today is back as usual on BBC Two


But for now, from all the team, bye-bye.


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