26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

to happen. You may currently be

unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

unlocks our membership of the European Union,

chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

vague so that each member state can decide how

and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

in the European Commission. What will be the substance

of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

and will require ratification from each of the 27

national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

and will need support from a qualified majority,

at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

of the council. There we are, much more of that to

come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

it is important for the country to see what are the actual

consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of

defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this

referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,

you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will

swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people, you

cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you

what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,

and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate

it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without

having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of

time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into

the detail because the detail matters. For example financial

services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,

what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of

jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?

We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the

detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so

that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what

this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael

Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details

will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of

relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one

that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe

because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,

but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be

made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so

curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,

we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years

I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe

said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do

with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with

Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to

understand something as well, I think it is very important about

where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp

won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger

among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their

future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And

so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the

country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of

Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain

and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a

negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this

is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do

you rule out another referendum? As I'm looking at it here, I can't see

how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.

For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in

the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out

financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen

dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The

British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as

we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we

can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally

see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will

now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,

I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another

referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people

in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want

to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and

unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in

the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are

deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of

debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades

of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.

We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics

between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the

border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now

to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and

test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really

means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country

but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if

we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of

this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I

don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of

this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would

have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I

think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it

is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as

possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when

they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,

is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the

same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,

let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the

Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got

rid of the difficult people. No, every country is anxious about the

effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see

why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but

there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told

me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the

status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries

about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's

be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always

been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when

the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,

a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But

immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt

not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these

politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools

and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if

these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on

the left and right were not listening to them and they may have

been right. I thought my last election campaign

on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the

problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,

because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this

country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither

did the last Labour government, and this government has not built

enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the

Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie

Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the

EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in

education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?

Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to

deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a

whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped

together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not

centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,

I do except there were communities, and when people see their

communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people, you

have got to deal with that. Yes, I agree, but the answer is not to get

out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not

fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the

campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people

understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the

problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,

jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving

Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come

is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by

reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that

realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This

morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie

Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting

to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should

there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.

-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than

I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the

Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am

not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony

Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting

troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP,

Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called

on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. -- for mayor.

Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.

She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events

Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister

in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the

UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet

minister. With me now is the former

Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under

Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the

referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going

to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from

now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory

for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that

this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum

clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality

is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the

European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen

agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a

nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We

will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the

drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language

you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European

Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should

not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in

Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a

debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on

Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British

phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the

direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the

Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that

was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within

the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel

has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,

one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you

can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that

the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of

events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered

reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard

European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great

Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal

does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an

organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the

very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work

together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the

biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something

which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage

the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon

start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative

Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on

Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an

excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round

the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of

admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his

decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new

arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be

undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?

I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of

admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would

give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris

Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so

I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and

Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a

leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point, so

far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European

Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to

show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that

we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be

quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single

model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a

different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of

relationship within the European Union. This will be another

different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When

people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single

financial market, the answer is, why not? You need to show why. Everyone

has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in

the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of

self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and

straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the

benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things

that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of

movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it

is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many

parts of the political spectrum, both in Britain and across the EU.

What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,

people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we

have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just

in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but

the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign

ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling

Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald

Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has

not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you

listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in

a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,

they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest

neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect

on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by

all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what

is in their collective self-interest, then I think you

start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not

need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to

be part of the negotiating team? I have not. Would you say yes? You

have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the

EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics

and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really

matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is

the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key

negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it

needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive

and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive

vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will

need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as

the role as leader of the party. Francis Maude, thank you very much.

Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy

Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk

we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No

more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having

second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am

joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave

campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?

We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would

like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign

Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European

partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably

when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the

existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins

the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the

autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to

put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,

established a trade department. We will want to see as members of

Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a

Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is

preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see

what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so

that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in

the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we

begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new

Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from

the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of

the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would

bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see

a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of

January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European

leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the

commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the

discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal

discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal

talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or

a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.

What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not

answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the

Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year. You

will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no

one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You

are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out

some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering

Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon

because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in

those discussions. The brothel -- Brussels bureaucracy regard as

impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got

to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in

this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for

instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the

Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who

understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,

Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter

Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we

need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what

preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel

Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan

Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical

decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of

honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week

to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of

course that is only available once we have actually left the European

Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the

Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have

now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and

what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were

reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they

could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like

160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls

to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes

off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be

taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar

to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be

involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the

MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a

range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at

the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes

all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the

system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,

first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six

candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to

decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until

November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has

huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks

under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger

article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end

of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having

that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it

might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for

the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,

William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't

decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have

spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're

hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I

might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank

you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a

pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also

a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again

behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in

someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting

it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair

was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I

was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the

old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early

to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.

Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very

close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point? No,

and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we

start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out

predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,

Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,

not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.

Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the

kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I

will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them

voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What

do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been

saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has

demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but

pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I

think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be

a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a

leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by

the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob

Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.

I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration

Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy

shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can

He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.

Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared

The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market

has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.

The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement

I love this country and I feel honoured to have

The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,

David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation

on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership

To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be

If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down

via first past the post, until they are left

Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,

said to be about 150,000 strong, who decide the winner

David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place

by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts

But it will be the backbench 1922 Committee which decides

They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.

I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the

EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may

be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to

decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the

Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to

have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It

may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote

for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all

who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just

unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to

remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think

that will come into the equation because the country has voted to

leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has

moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are

the main candidate in your view? Who knows, because no one has put

themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe

Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from

her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including

Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George

Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has

made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because

with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of

democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential

challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we

are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in

terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is

dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it

will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal

with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a

party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get

its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue

has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime

ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there

any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it

doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we

should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,

pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously

the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss

other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make

of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs

rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the

wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st

with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference

if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until

the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then

whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of

November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the

membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing

a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the

country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism

at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short

list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a

leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country

needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very

much. It's not just Her

Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks

of Plates also appear to be

shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn

sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night

and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting

of the The secret ballot will not

have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden

others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum

against their leader. So far, MPs, including

Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,

have already said they However, in order to depose

a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have

to put themselves forward, and receive the support

of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,

so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing

to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures

that level of support, a contest will be held

at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool

at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter

the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,

one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered

supporters. If more than two candidates stand,

voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%

on first preference, the last placed candidate

is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets

above the threshold. We are now hearing that another

Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of

the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to

be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.

With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.

Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a

time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when

nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for

the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of

composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be

thinking about the nation first. What is happening in your Shadow

Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a

Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities

than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the

defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to

be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is

happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for

me but the important thing is we remain

me but the important thing is we me but the important thing is we

remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important

thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at

what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to

show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall

times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership

challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues

in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they

seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the

referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that

Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory

in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the

campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David

Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in

this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David

Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about

his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being

blue on blue. When I spoke Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland. The die has been cast and the UK

has voted to leave the EU. But with years

of negotiations ahead, there will almost

certainly be profound implications I'll be asking the Finance Minister

and the Economy Minister for their thoughts

after these momentous few days. We'll hear from the Secretary

of State, Theresa Villiers - a leading figure

in the Leave campaign, of course. Plus our official opposition

parties and Alliance, and also Dublin and Scotland

as the reverberations continue. And with me throughout

with their thoughts, Professor David Phinnemore

and Felicity Huston. Northern Ireland voted strongly

for Remain on Thursday, but that made no difference

to the overall result which has caused shockwaves across Europe,

cost the Prime Minister his job, and thrown the future

of the Leader of the Opposition will also have

major implications here. So how will the two Executive

parties manage the change? Joining me now are Simon Hamilton

and Mairtin O Muilleoir. Welcome. It is an unfolding

situation this morning. Lots of developments in London, as far as

the Labour Party is concerned, and possible developers in Scotland as

well. The DUP is a Unionist party looking at the potential break-up of

the UK. At that be a good thing from your point of view? Let's see what

happens. It is a rapidly changing and unfolding situation. Clearly,

there are issues in respect of Scotland and what Nicola Sturgeon

has said. The Scottish people made a clear decision in the last few

years, they wanted to remain within the European union. That is a matter

for them in concert with the UK government to take forward. The

people of the United Kingdom have taken a clear decision in respect of

wanting to leave. I respect and understand that there are many

people who have concerns about what it means for Northern Ireland, first

and foremost, but for also the rest of the UK as well. We have got to

deal with that decision. One thing that is clear, particularly from the

Prime Minister's announcement on Friday, this will take a long period

of time to work its way through. Remain campaigners throughout this

process said, if you thought to leave, it will be a leap in the

dark. And it has turned out to be a leap in the dark because there are

so many unknowns. We don't know what will happen on so many issues. We

could have a conversation about the next couple of hours and not reach

any conclusions. There are also various campaigners who were

spectating on doom and gloom which did not happen straight away. We

have to deal with the decision in a way that is best for Northern

Ireland. We need to remain calm and get some stability. We have had a

pretty fractious debate at a national level. The decision has

been taken. We need to work through what is best for Northern Ireland.

All of the parts of the UK need to be part of the negotiations, to work

together. We have a border with the EU. We need to be part of the

negotiations to get the best deal for Northern Ireland. Do you accept

that broad thrust, that we are where we are, we have to work through it

step-by-step. There are parts of that but I accept. I want to commend

those who voted to Remain. It is not often that Green and orange unite.

It is the great heart. It does not matter, does it? I think the

Scottish voted our vote does make it difference. I take my mandate from

the people of the North who voted overwhelmingly to stay. That

aspiration, as Nicola Sturgeon described it, but demand that we

should be with Europe, that is how I will beg I did in the time ahead.

I'm not conceding that the decision of the bulk of people in England,

had their play to them, means that we have to leave as well. How will

you try to put a spanner in the works? We will need to talk with

common purpose. I know he was cheering on the fans, so he has lost

his voice. There are things that give us common purpose. You have to

respect the mandate, you have to respect the boat. You have to ask

the people, did the consent to Brexit. They did not consent, and

that has to guide me. You both want to work together to get the best

deal, but you do not accept the basic premise that the UK has voted

to leave the European Union. How can you work together when you don't

except the basic verdict? I'm not disputing that a majority of the UK

and thought Italy. The most important thing to me, and where I

will take my lead from, is that most of the people here, orange and

Green, the business community, the entrepreneurs, those who benefit in

the border region, those who benefit from life sciences funding from

Europe, the voted to remain. I requested contingency papers from my

department, in the key areas around the economy, read European funding,

around our negotiation with the Treasury. We reviewed those on

Friday, we took Stark and it is our view that everything has changed. --

we took Stark. There were 14 consecutive pages of

chaos and crisis was not in this no man's land, it is our job to get the

best deal. Our negotiation assignment is not only with the

British government, as it negotiates Brexit, but also on the other side

of the table. There are Irish citizens here, 1.8 million of them,

so we have do meet on the other side of the table as well. That is for

another day. He has got his departmental officials together, and

he has looked at the numbers and he is trying to act the way forward.

What about the Executive meeting? Any plans for that tomorrow? That

would seem obvious. We are making this week. But not tomorrow? I don't

think there is one scheduled. She it not be? People are working through

the ramifications in their department. I'm sure all about

Executive colleagues are trying to understand them. We are trying to

understand the applications for each of their departments. As we prepare

for that, senior officials in the civil service are talking to their

counterparts in Whitehall, talking about counterparts in Brussels as

well, to work through all of this and see what it means in the

short-term. Particularly to prepare for those negotiations in this

turmoil. The Deputy First Minister Martin

McGuinness is being interviewed A majority people in the North,

unionist, nationalists and republicans wish to remain in

Europe. That cannot be ignored by the British Gutman, the Irish

government or the powers that be in the European Union. What we do need

in future isn't island of Ireland solution to the problem. That

requires the attention of the Taoiseach in particular. I was

disturbed in the course of the last few days whenever the Taoiseach

focused on how so pathetic the Irish, to be to a British government

that was negotiating its way out of the European Union in the next few

years. The he should have been focusing on the Democratic wishes of

people. I spoke to them on Friday and I have arranged an urgent

meeting with the Taoiseach. There is an overwhelming desire following

that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, in the EU. Why would that

translate to an overwhelming desire for Irish unification? It is

something that I think could be conducted at the very -- in a very

civilised fashion. As it was conducted in Scotland. There is an

overwhelming desire, stated just from the boat last Thursday for what

you are calling for? I didn't say that there was. What I did say was

that I do believe that exercise is one that should be undertaken at

some stage in the future. The immediate focus needs to be on how

we continue our relationship with the European Union. That is where my

focus is. That is why I think the discussions with the Taoiseach are

urgent, and require immediate attention. As do discussions with

the powers that be at the European Union. Whenever you consider the

position of Scotland, which is also over worming the -- which has all

overwhelmingly voted to remain. They need to take the Democratic wishes

of the people in Northern Ireland into account. That is a negotiation

with the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Taoiseach, when asked about the

border poll, he said there are more immediate problems to deal with, and

that is where the focus should live. My focus lies on how we need to

maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you're not

interested in the border poll? We do believe that there should be a

border poll at some stage in the future. I think in the immediate

future the focus needs to be on the whole issue of how we can maintain a

relationship with Europe, which has been so beneficial to us over the

course of the last number of decades. Whenever you consider the

dangers for us in terms of the dangers to our ability to develop

our economy, the dangers to the prospect of border controls, which I

think would represent a very serious undermining of the Good Friday

Agreement. The whole issue of foreign direct investment, which is

threatened by the decision to pull out of Europe, particularly from

North America. These are the issues Chuck being exercised at the moment.

But you cannot do that unless there was some sort of referendum on Irish

unification. You cannot do that from within the UK since the UK has noted

as a whole to leave. There needs to be special arrangements, which take

account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

the North of Ireland. And the people of Scotland, who wished to remain,

and maintain our contacts and ability to work with very senior

officials and government authorities within Europe. So I think that, from

my perspective, in the immediate future, although you are focused on

the issue of the border poll, and we do believe they should be won at

some stage in the future, the immediate task has to be how the

democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the North of

Ireland can be catered for in the context of this huge debate which

will ensue over the course of the next number of months. We are very

disturbed that the British Prime Minister has clearly indicated that

there will be no engagement with Europe on the whole issue of Article

50 until there is a new Prime Minister. Thank you.

So that was the deputy First Minister in our foil studio talking

to joke Cockburn in London. I want to pick up on that final

point. He talked about the need for special arrangements for people in

Scotland, but here in Northern Ireland in particular, to allow for

the democratic wishes of people here to continue to have links with the

European Union to be accommodated. Can that be done? The negotiations

which will start at some point in the future, weather there is a new

premise that is -- when there is a new Prime Minister in place, that is

the right way to do that. I think we as an Executive should be going to

those negotiations, making it clear to the new Prime Minister, the gamut

in London, and to the European commission, that there are

particular circumstances in Northern Ireland. We need to recognise the

system of government that we have, the aspect of our economy which have

different needs to England or Scotland or Wales, and the fact we

will have a border will which is going to be the border of the

European Union. It is an important border, one which we have made

significant progress on in recent years, and we don't want to see that

go backwards. But can we have a bespoke solution to this problem?

Surely... People at home will be saying, these words are interesting,

but you are either in the EU or you are not in the ice. Either you are

in the United Kingdom, not estimate you cannot have a foot in every cap.

Absolutely. We will remain as part of the United Kingdom, but the

decision has been made to leave the EU. We do need... We'll be missing

an opportunity not to go into these negotiations and say, while we have

to deal with the decision that has been made, there must be a tailoring

of options for Northern Ireland. He was the point for you. We hear that

Arlene Foster took a phone call from David Cameron on Friday, I think, at

Stormont Castle. He assured her that the devolved assemblies to, the

devolved government would have some sort of input in the negotiations

that Simon Hamilton is referring to that. He can only speak on behalf of

the office alongside the Debbie to First Minister. They take

diametrically opposed positions on the Mrs of the European Union. How

will that work? They were both in that call with Mr Cameron, and

whatever our lack of confidence in what he says, negotiating for us,

God forbid, would be Boris Johnson or Michael Gove. It could be! We

need to be front and centre to those negotiations. I disagree that we

have to be in or out. Our status within the UK is not the same of

Sunderland Newcastle, we do have a set of arrangements here which

opportunity to Europe. I will not concede that our people voted to,

because they did not. I remain determined to defend... So you are

looking for a bespoke solution? I am not saying that. People here voted

to remain. Quickly. I spoke to the CBI, there will be a recession,

people will go down to the dull centres. The people who rebounded to

remain will fight to defend... Martin McGuinness was out on Friday,

saying that we have to have the border poll, not backed by Arlene

Foster or the Secretary of State. Interesting there, saying that is

not my number one priority. Is that falling back in terms of importance

for Sinn Fein? We are still for a border poll, and we do believe this

special set of circumstances are giving people pause to reflect,

North and south of it. I have confidence that as we start these

negotiations, I spoke to the Finance Minister of Scotland on Friday about

this matter as well. Whatever happens to Sunderland and London,

they will remain wedded to the rest of this Ireland. The House of

Commons ultimately has to vote on this issue. It has to sign off on

it. As I understand it, reading stuff over the weekend, about 160 of

the MPs are pro-leave. Do you think that is about the Easter happen? The

except that the leave camp might lose it? Even the issue of saying

for certain that the United Kingdom is leaving the EU is not something

we can say at this stage? The Labour Party have more important things to

worry about, with what has happened this morning, but parliamentarians

who would disrespect the views of the clear instructions given to them

by the British people will be making a huge mistake. I completely

understand the concerns of many people, particularly in Northern

Ireland, who voted to remain. You're going to disregard their views?

We're not going to. That is the difficulty. You are supposed to be

negotiating on this place, whether you call it Northern Ireland or the

North of Ireland, on behalf of all of the people. Some want to stay,

some want to leave. There is not much common ground. If I may, this

common purpose is that we both want the best deal for the people you

represent. Your best deal is not go into be his best deal. There are

unionists and nationalists on both side of the vote on Thursday. What

we have to do it agree on, and we can discussion our positions on the

border and England and so on, we had differences on those. What we are

united on is getting the best for Northern Ireland. What we have to do

is to have some calmness and stability in the next couple of

weeks and discuss what is best for Northern Ireland in the discussions

that will take place will stop I fundamentally believe there are huge

opportunities for Northern Ireland in the new dispensation that will

take place. We have to have those special circumstances that we have

acknowledged. We need to look at where we are spending the money to

increase the levels of investment that are coming into Northern

Ireland, unshackled from the geography of Brussels. Let me ask

you this about the House of Lords. Very quickly, the House of Lords EU

committee, it applies a while ago, it made clear that the Scottish

Parliament's consent would be required and due to the European

committees act being entrenched in the devolution settlement is of

Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no need for consent... Not only

would Westminster have to give consent, but so would Stormont and

Edinburgh. Is that right? They did not cover that piece of uncertainty.

Is that a valid point? I suspect it is. It is among the many points.

There were a million questions to be asked. What I would say to the

DUP... Do you accept that that is something, an obstacle you will have

to over come in the weeks to come question Mike I have not had a

chance to look at it. The parliament is sovereign. You are not talking

about it on the terraces question they were. There was a concern about

exiting from the European championship. The British people

have made a clear decision. People of Northern Ireland took a clear

decision. We have got to respect the clear decision they made and we need

to do with it in a way that produces the best possible outcome. He have

to leave it there. Let's hear from my

guests of the day, Felicity Huston

and David Phinnemore. David, you are an academic in this a

area of study. Does there need to be a vote in the House of Commons on

this issue? Does Parliament have the final say? What about the House of

Lords EU committee suggestion that also Scotland and Northern Ireland

would have do give support for the withdrawal to take place question

Mike the issue we have got is that we have never been in this position

before and there is no clarity around the procedures. There is an

argument that it is up to the Prime Minister to trigger it. As for

whether the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly would have

to approve as well, but is unclear. Totally unclear. Given the pressure

which is coming from Scotland, the principle of consent, I think

politically if not legally, there is a strong argument to say that all of

because different elements of the UK would need to support the decision.

That is cleared the case at the moment. It is unclear. It is not

laid down in any statute or any legislation. Where are you this

morning? You were and if you just tick Lever. -- you were an

enthusiastic Leave campaigner. Did you think we would have this absence

of clarity on Sunni France? There was a surprise that Leave one

because the media, the polls, the bookies, the political class at all

said that it would not win. I gather Boris Johnson thought on Thursday

evening... Nigel Farage conceded defeat. He is a flaky individual at

the best of times. It was a big surprise. The reason there was such

a, what happens now? Is because people did not think it would

happen. You could not run a government without sophisticated

civil servants saying, Minister, do we not have to have a look at the

alternatives? Surely that must have been going on. What happens now?

WSDL have the lack of clarity. We have turmoil within the Conservative

party, within the Labour Party as well. We know what is happening in

Scotland. That is developing. The issue is whether this is dealt with

in a hurry, as some people suggest, or as Angela Merkel suggested

yesterday, there is no rush, let's not be hasty, let's work it through

step-by-step. At the moment, it seems to be a bit of both of those.

It is, again, we are in uncharted territory. You're getting a solid

position coming out of the European union is situations, demanding that

Cameron signal as soon as the what his intention is. I think there is

some Flex ability from Angela Merkel. But she is indicating that

it is to be by the end of this year, Article 50 triggered, but then you

are into the two dear period when the negotiations will have to take

place. What we also need to bear in mind is there is a long process

associated with that in terms of developing what the new glacial ship

would be. There is a series of negotiations which need to take

place. If you got through the withdrawal within two yes, there is

a longer process of establishing the relationship. One of the key issues

is not just looking at the imprecations but what we want from

the future agreement. Would you like it to be quick, even

if it is painful? Or do you accept this could go on? I don't think it

should go on because I think people who voted Leave have an expectation

that things are going to happen. If nothing happens, I think that is

very dangerous for the country. Thanks both -

we'll hear more from you later. As we heard earlier,

the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, quickly rejected

Sinn Fein calls for a border poll. Thank you very much indeed for

joining us on the programme. Martin McGuinness just said to my colleague

it is not the number one priority as far as I am concerned but it

continues to be an issue. Sinn Fein have always wanted a border poll,

why do you continue to rule it out? Sinn Fein have a very long-standing

position that they support a border poll but the Belfast agreement is

clear that the conditions that require me to call one are the

belief that there is likely to be a majority for a united Ireland. I

don't believe there are such grounds, therefore the conditions

are not met and the border poll would therefore not be appropriate.

We do not know, because this is an evolving situation, and it could

just be that the rug has been pulled from nationalists in Northern

Ireland, as far as the future relationship between this place and

the European Union is concerned, and perhaps someday but who are genomic

have been supportive of remaining in the UK could be changing their

position. The only way to change and test that is to have a border poll.

There are so many challenges in Northern Ireland that would not be

helped by a border poll. It does not suit your purposes, be honest about

it. What we want is a period of stability to prepare for the

negotiations and engaging with the Northern Ireland executive will be

crucial for that because they will be the recipients of many of the

powers that are going to be coming back to the United Kingdom. They

will be taking decisions on how to support our farmers. They need to be

at the start of these negotiations. That is why the Prime Minister

emphasised that this process would involve engagements with the

devolved governments. The difficulty for you now is that you are out of

step with the people of Northern Ireland. You were a significant

figure in the Leave campaign but people voted to remain by 56% - 44%.

Can you stay in your job? I can, and we need to remember that several

thousand people in Northern Ireland voted to leave. I don't think it is

unreasonable for the Secretary of State to hold the same they were on

this matter as the First Minister, who has just been re-elected with a

significant personal mandate in the Assembly election. We need to work

together, those of us on both sides of the debate, to get the best terms

for the UK on exiting the European Union, in particular to safeguard

Northern Ireland's interests, to keep that land border open, and to

retain our status as a great place to do business with the rest of

Europe. I am confident we can do that and I will be in gauging

widely, not just with politicians but with the business community.

Would you not be very concerned that on the issue of foreign direct

investment, Northern Ireland is unlikely to be as attractive

tomorrow as it was last Wednesday? For the moment, nothing changes at

all, but there are huge opportunities for Northern Ireland

in the event of the Brexit taking place. We take control over trade

deals, that means great opportunities for doing business

with the rest of the world, but we will get a good radio with the

European Union. There is a free-trade zone that stretches

between Iceland and the Russian border. We will be part of its own

Northern Ireland will still be a fantastic place to invest in, to

create jobs and do business with the rest of Europe and the rest of the

world. But the point is, there was clarity before, anybody wanting to

invest in Northern Ireland and create jobs were sure this was an

entry point to the rest of the European Union. That is not the case

in future and therefore Northern Ireland is not necessarily as

attractive to international investors as it was before. But

there will be clarity because we will get eight radio. There may be,

but there is not at the moment, that is the point. The European Union

sells far more to us than we sell to them. And we will be preparing with

care for the negotiations to star in due course. It is very important

that every effort is made to do those preparations. I am working

with my officials, I have spoken to the First Minister and the Deputy

First Minister already. I have a constructive discussion with Charlie

Flanagan. The finance minister is vigorously shaking his head in the

studio. I have never heard a Secretary of State so out of touch

with ordinary people on the ground. The damage that has been done to

business confidence by this determination to drive us out of

Europe. I can tell you that it is my resolve not to be dragged out of

Europe and to accept the mandate given by remain in the time ahead. I

want to be part of the negotiations, I don't want to be part of your

team, I want an executive team. How do you respond to that? There is the

nature of the problem you are now facing. It is not as simple as you

are suggesting it will be. I believe it will be very important for the

Northern Ireland executive to be part of this process. What we need

to do now is to have an inclusive process which takes on the concerns

of remain voters as well as leave voters. I believe that we can, a

Brexit vote does not mean we pull up the drawbridge, we become

isolationist. Of course the UK will still be outward looking, it will

have a global approach, it will be trading with the European Union and

the rest of the world, and it will be engaging on it friendly way on a

whole range of issues with the European Union. That is the

assurance we need to give to people who voted Remain. That is a

discussion that will continue in the months ahead. There is a breaking

situation this morning. Nicola Sturgeon says the Scottish

Parliament could veto British exit from the European Union. She

believes Hollywood -- Holyrood would have two support it and she would

ask MSPs to refuse such legislative consent. How do you deal with that

one? Parliament is sovereign but in the weeks and months ahead, we will

be working with both the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland

executive on all these issues, but ultimately it is parliament's

decision whether we repeal the 1972 act or whether we don't. And if

parliament is sovereign, does that mean the Labour MP David Lammy is

right to say that MPs have to sign off on a British exit from the

European Union, you need to have a vote, and with the current make-up

you would struggle big time to get that book through because, as I

understand it, there is an overwhelming majority of MPs in

support of remain. But we had a vote as a United Kingdom, we voted to

leave the European Union, and I hope that parliament will respect that

decision. Very good to talk to you. It wasn't just Northern Ireland

which voted to Remain. Scotland also gave the pro-EU side

a strong endorsement. People there voted 62% to 38%

to stay, and now Nicola Sturgeon has begun the process for a second

Scottish independence referendum. This is what she had to say this

morning on the Andrew Marr Show. My challenge now as First Minister

is to work out how I best protect Scotland's interests, how I try to

prevent as being taken out of the European Union against our will with

all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences that will

entail. Independence is not my starting point in this. Protecting

Scotland's interests is my starting point, but if it is the case that

looking again at the question of independence becomes the only way in

which we can protect Scotland's interests, that is a debate and a

conversation and a decision the people of Scotland have a right to

take over the next period, but in all of this, it is about protecting

Scotland's interests. If we do find ourselves in a position of looking

again at the independence question this is not going to be a rewritten

of the 2014 referendum. The contest has changed dramatically. The UK

Scotland voted to remain within in 2014 does not exist any more.

Whatever happens with Scotland, this issue of a border is going to have

to be resolved in the context of Ireland. Some of these issues that

would arise for Scotland, not all of them, I accept, but some of them

arise anyway in the Irish context and are going to have to be

resolved. These are issues that are live. I don't want to see in any

circumstances a border between Scotland and England. Whatever

happens, England is our nearest neighbour and I hope will be our

best friend. Scotland's First Minister,

Nicola Sturgeon. Dublin has also expressed concern

about the potential impact of Brexit to the Fianna Fail TD,

Declan Brennock. But first let's go to Glasgow

and journalist Gerry Braiden. Thank you very much for joining us.

Let's just talk about this developing story with Nicola

Sturgeon and where she believes that there is legislative consent

required from Scotland, from Holyrood, to remove the UK from the

European Union and she would not recommend MSPs to give that

legislative consent. How significant is that? The fact that this notion

has only been doomed around in the last 24 hours and that the First

Minister put this into the public domain three days after the vote

tells a story in itself. It seems the case that the Scotland act of

$1998 appeared to set out that Scotland would require, Scotland has

the power to veto this, but this has been knocking around for 18 years

and it is only now we are talking about this. It seems to be that we

are looking at the future on the hoof. What we have is an

interpretation of the Act and it is not as prescriptive as it might

appear at this juncture. We have just been speaking to the Secretary

of State and she absolutely rejected the First Minister of Scotland's

position on this and she said parliament is sovereign and it is

absolutely not to say it, it is to Westminster to decide. Everything

that we are facing over the last three days, we are in absolutely

uncharted terrain, and the fact we are only talking about this now, it

seems like someone has just brought this into the mix and it remains to

be seen whether there is any validity to this interpretation. I

would not like to say that Theresa Villiers is right or Nicola Sturgeon

is right but the fact it is out there suggest it is a story. What is

the mood in Scotland this morning? We have just been hearing from

Martin McGuinness who said, as far as he is concerned, somehow or

other, the government in Westminster has to find a way to acknowledge the

views of people in Northern Ireland want this place to remain part of

the European Union, so we have got to come up with some sort of bespoke

solution. Is that the mood where you are? Very much so. The 2014

referendum continues to dominate Scottish politics and it was always

going to be the case that in the event of a Brexit, it would very

much come back into the mix. Some are very notable polls this morning,

synonymous with an elderly readership, socially conservative,

59% of people are now voting to leave the UK. 47% of whom are

pensioners. The Sunday Herald, it was the only paper to back

independence in 2014 and it has a deeper sense of 35,000 people who

answered their poll saying they would also backed leave. And most

significantly, the daily record, traditional Labour supporting paper,

pretty pro-UK in the run-up to the 2014 election, and was also the

newspaper promising enhanced devolution, it is in favour of a

second referendum and has suggested it would also suggested it would

support to leave the UK. There is very significant traction in that

direction. But at the moment, still very much a terrain where there is a

lot more dark than light. Not hopelessness but very much that the

default position is that people believe another referendum will

happen. Very interesting to hear your thoughts. Let's hear now from

Declan Brennan. Thank you very much for talking to us. Are we looking at

the creation of a new relationship between the UK and the Republic of

Ireland, and by definition Northern Ireland having new relationships

with Great Britain and the South as well? Firstly, I would like to

express disappointment on the decision. I think it is a

regrettable move and a retrograde step but we as the Republic respect

the decision. I personally believe that the conversation around

independence should be changed to our interdependence as two islands

on the periphery of Europe. It is my view and that of my party that we

first of all need to get into serious discussions. I think

everybody talks about calm and what I would consider chaos. I prefer to

say that it is incumbent on us to ensure stability, firstly in the

political system, secondly in our economic, and most importantly in

the legal framework. I listened very intently to what Theresa Villiers

had to say and I think you should replay it. She said in the event of

an exit, I think it is dawning of realism yet that this

interdependence needs to be guaranteed both from a north and

South perspective in terms of making sure that nobody on this island

suffers and I do think that when one looks at the 80,000 instruments that

are there within the make-up of the European Union, so many

imponderables. An interesting piece written

yesterday in the Guardian, in which he said that the English have placed

a bomb under the peace process. His point was that it now calls into

question so much that was nailed down in the 1998 Good Friday

Agreement, that it is impossible to say now that relations between those

who were signatories to that and the sovereign governments involved, will

continue, and that nationalists in Northern Ireland may choose to take

a different view about their position in the UK after Brexit. Do

you think he was making a valid point question of unionists have

dismissed it. But a lot of nationalists say he was capturing

the zeitgeist will stop the impact that the EU has had both financially

and in various parts of industry and the all Ireland economy, it is in