26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


26/06/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


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Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

:00:15.:00:21.

been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

:00:22.:00:26.

this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

:00:27.:00:32.

going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

:00:33.:00:37.

any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

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does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

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replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

:00:52.:00:56.

have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

:00:57.:01:02.

referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

:01:03.:01:11.

country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

:01:12.:01:19.

to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

:01:20.:01:22.

cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

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listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

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saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

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And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

:02:38.:02:44.

who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

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Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

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hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

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the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

:02:58.:03:01.

be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

:03:02.:03:07.

voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

:03:08.:03:11.

the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

:03:12.:03:15.

should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

:03:16.:03:20.

Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

:03:21.:03:25.

did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

:03:26.:03:30.

does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

:03:31.:03:35.

will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

:03:36.:03:37.

electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

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referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

:03:45.:03:50.

political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

:03:51.:03:54.

and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

:03:55.:04:01.

delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

:04:02.:04:06.

people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

:04:07.:04:10.

success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

:04:11.:04:15.

have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

:04:16.:04:21.

on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

:04:22.:04:24.

need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

:04:25.:04:29.

that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

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the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

:04:34.:04:37.

the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

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listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

:04:42.:04:46.

behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

:04:47.:04:49.

Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

:04:50.:04:56.

maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

:04:57.:05:00.

within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

:05:01.:05:05.

want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

:05:06.:05:09.

doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

:05:10.:05:13.

particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

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hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

:05:18.:05:21.

able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

:05:22.:05:26.

leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

:05:27.:05:30.

Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

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government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

:05:36.:05:37.

are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

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and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

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at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

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we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

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provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

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overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

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people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

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I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

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for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

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party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

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months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

:06:27.:06:31.

to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

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He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

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you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

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sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

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Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

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-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

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His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

:07:08.:07:11.

think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

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electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

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the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

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of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

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for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

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not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

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about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

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part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

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until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

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disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

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the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

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to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

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political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

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another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

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not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

:08:24.:08:26.

stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

:08:27.:08:32.

You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

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not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

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colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

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not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

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it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

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where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

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us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

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live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

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what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

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result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

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Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

:09:23.:09:31.

spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

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decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

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against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

:09:40.:09:48.

can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

:09:49.:09:52.

months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

:09:53.:09:56.

captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

:09:57.:10:07.

prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

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have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

:10:11.:10:14.

have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

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point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

:10:23.:10:29.

politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

:10:30.:10:31.

consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

:10:32.:10:40.

significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

:10:41.:10:46.

statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

:10:47.:10:51.

be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

:10:52.:10:56.

everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

:10:57.:11:01.

everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

:11:02.:11:06.

who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

:11:07.:11:13.

conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

:11:14.:11:15.

does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

:11:16.:11:22.

united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

:11:23.:11:28.

to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

:11:29.:11:33.

not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

:11:34.:11:38.

feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

:11:39.:11:44.

any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

:11:45.:11:47.

becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

:11:48.:11:51.

with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

:11:52.:11:56.

before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

:11:57.:12:01.

really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

:12:02.:12:06.

I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

:12:07.:12:10.

have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

:12:11.:12:17.

Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

:12:18.:12:22.

seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

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we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

:12:27.:12:30.

the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

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it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

:12:36.:12:39.

any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

:12:40.:12:43.

have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

:12:44.:12:47.

anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

:12:48.:12:52.

reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

:12:53.:12:57.

what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

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two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

:13:03.:13:06.

my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

:13:07.:13:10.

Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

:13:11.:13:15.

They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

:13:16.:13:19.

Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

:13:20.:13:24.

Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

:13:25.:13:26.

Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

:13:27.:13:43.

be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

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David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

:13:46.:13:47.

by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

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there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

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prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

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and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

:13:56.:14:03.

reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

:14:04.:14:06.

ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

:14:07.:14:12.

have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

:14:13.:14:17.

critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

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answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

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contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

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APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

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length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

:14:36.:14:38.

difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

:14:39.:14:43.

pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

:14:44.:14:47.

levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

:14:48.:14:53.

European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

:14:54.:14:56.

Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

:14:57.:15:01.

emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

:15:02.:15:04.

Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

:15:05.:15:09.

have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

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referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

:15:15.:15:18.

on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

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the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

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the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

:15:29.:15:32.

Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

:15:33.:15:36.

Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

:15:37.:15:43.

Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

:15:44.:15:47.

Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

:15:48.:15:52.

the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

:15:53.:15:56.

among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

:15:57.:16:00.

brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

:16:01.:16:04.

Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

:16:05.:16:09.

with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

:16:10.:16:17.

very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

:16:18.:16:20.

committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

:16:21.:16:24.

is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

:16:25.:16:27.

Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

:16:28.:16:32.

is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

:16:33.:16:36.

Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

:16:37.:16:43.

fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

:16:44.:16:46.

scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

:16:47.:16:51.

second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

:16:52.:16:54.

numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

:16:55.:16:59.

remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

:17:00.:17:04.

it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

:17:05.:17:10.

in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

:17:11.:17:15.

same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

:17:16.:17:20.

is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

:17:21.:17:23.

disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

:17:24.:17:29.

massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

:17:30.:17:32.

says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

:17:33.:17:37.

Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

:17:38.:17:43.

Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

:17:44.:17:49.

Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

:17:50.:17:53.

He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

:17:54.:17:58.

mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

:17:59.:18:02.

wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

:18:03.:18:07.

other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

:18:08.:18:11.

Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

:18:12.:18:15.

question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

:18:16.:18:21.

Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

:18:22.:18:26.

I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

:18:27.:18:32.

someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

:18:33.:18:37.

did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

:18:38.:18:42.

is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

:18:43.:18:46.

seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

:18:47.:18:53.

the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

:18:54.:18:58.

sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

:18:59.:19:04.

interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

:19:05.:19:09.

horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

:19:10.:19:12.

leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

:19:13.:19:17.

bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

:19:18.:19:22.

I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

:19:23.:19:26.

have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

:19:27.:19:31.

page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

:19:32.:19:38.

thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

:19:39.:19:41.

timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

:19:42.:19:45.

having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

:19:46.:19:50.

strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

:19:51.:19:54.

manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

:19:55.:19:58.

we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

:19:59.:20:03.

signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

:20:04.:20:11.

it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

:20:12.:20:17.

he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

:20:18.:20:22.

members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

:20:23.:20:25.

popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

:20:26.:20:31.

national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

:20:32.:20:34.

of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

:20:35.:20:40.

We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

:20:41.:20:41.

to happen. You may currently be

:20:42.:20:43.

unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

:20:44.:20:45.

the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

:20:46.:20:49.

Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

:20:50.:20:58.

unlocks our membership of the European Union,

:20:59.:21:00.

chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

:21:01.:21:03.

the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

:21:04.:21:05.

to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

:21:06.:21:09.

vague so that each member state can decide how

:21:10.:21:12.

and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

:21:13.:21:16.

it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

:21:17.:21:19.

effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

:21:20.:21:23.

contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

:21:24.:21:28.

the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

:21:29.:21:31.

in the European Commission. What will be the substance

:21:32.:21:35.

of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

:21:36.:21:41.

discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

:21:42.:21:44.

and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

:21:45.:21:49.

financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

:21:50.:21:52.

and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

:21:53.:21:55.

conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

:21:56.:21:57.

to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

:21:58.:22:04.

and will require ratification from each of the 27

:22:05.:22:06.

national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

:22:07.:22:12.

hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

:22:13.:22:15.

and will need support from a qualified majority,

:22:16.:22:18.

at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

:22:19.:22:22.

it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

:22:23.:22:30.

the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

:22:31.:22:36.

of the council. There we are, much more of that to

:22:37.:22:45.

come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

:22:46.:22:49.

Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

:22:50.:22:52.

Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

:22:53.:22:55.

for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

:22:56.:23:07.

of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

:23:08.:23:12.

have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

:23:13.:23:16.

consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

:23:17.:23:21.

will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

:23:22.:23:25.

process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

:23:26.:23:29.

months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

:23:30.:23:32.

shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

:23:33.:23:38.

it is important for the country to see what are the actual

:23:39.:23:43.

consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

:23:44.:23:47.

are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

:23:48.:23:53.

President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

:23:54.:23:58.

apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

:23:59.:24:05.

do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

:24:06.:24:09.

result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

:24:10.:24:14.

to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

:24:15.:24:18.

to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

:24:19.:24:23.

Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

:24:24.:24:31.

has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

:24:32.:24:36.

and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

:24:37.:24:40.

for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

:24:41.:24:43.

relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

:24:44.:24:54.

these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

:24:55.:24:59.

have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

:25:00.:25:03.

is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of

:25:04.:25:09.

defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this

:25:10.:25:14.

referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,

:25:15.:25:19.

you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will

:25:20.:25:24.

swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people, you

:25:25.:25:30.

cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you

:25:31.:25:34.

what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,

:25:35.:25:39.

and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate

:25:40.:25:43.

it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without

:25:44.:25:48.

having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of

:25:49.:25:52.

time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into

:25:53.:25:57.

the detail because the detail matters. For example financial

:25:58.:26:02.

services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,

:26:03.:26:05.

what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of

:26:06.:26:09.

jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?

:26:10.:26:14.

We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the

:26:15.:26:20.

detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so

:26:21.:26:24.

that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what

:26:25.:26:30.

this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael

:26:31.:26:35.

Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details

:26:36.:26:39.

will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of

:26:40.:26:42.

relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one

:26:43.:26:48.

that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe

:26:49.:26:52.

because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,

:26:53.:26:59.

but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be

:27:00.:27:02.

made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so

:27:03.:27:06.

curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,

:27:07.:27:11.

we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years

:27:12.:27:16.

I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe

:27:17.:27:20.

said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do

:27:21.:27:24.

with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with

:27:25.:27:29.

Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to

:27:30.:27:33.

understand something as well, I think it is very important about

:27:34.:27:38.

where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp

:27:39.:27:44.

won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger

:27:45.:27:50.

among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their

:27:51.:27:54.

future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And

:27:55.:27:59.

so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the

:28:00.:28:03.

country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of

:28:04.:28:09.

Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain

:28:10.:28:13.

and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a

:28:14.:28:16.

negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this

:28:17.:28:25.

is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do

:28:26.:28:32.

you rule out another referendum? As I'm looking at it here, I can't see

:28:33.:28:39.

how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.

:28:40.:28:44.

For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in

:28:45.:28:49.

the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out

:28:50.:28:53.

financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen

:28:54.:28:57.

dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The

:28:58.:29:01.

British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as

:29:02.:29:06.

we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we

:29:07.:29:12.

can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally

:29:13.:29:17.

see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will

:29:18.:29:22.

now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,

:29:23.:29:28.

I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another

:29:29.:29:31.

referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people

:29:32.:29:34.

in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want

:29:35.:29:40.

to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and

:29:41.:29:46.

unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in

:29:47.:29:50.

the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are

:29:51.:29:53.

deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of

:29:54.:29:59.

debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades

:30:00.:30:03.

of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.

:30:04.:30:08.

We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics

:30:09.:30:12.

between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the

:30:13.:30:18.

border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now

:30:19.:30:24.

to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and

:30:25.:30:29.

test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really

:30:30.:30:33.

means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country

:30:34.:30:38.

but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if

:30:39.:30:44.

we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of

:30:45.:30:47.

this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I

:30:48.:30:56.

don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of

:30:57.:31:01.

this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would

:31:02.:31:04.

have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I

:31:05.:31:09.

think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it

:31:10.:31:16.

is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as

:31:17.:31:22.

possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when

:31:23.:31:27.

they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,

:31:28.:31:31.

is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the

:31:32.:31:35.

same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,

:31:36.:31:40.

let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the

:31:41.:31:48.

Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got

:31:49.:31:53.

rid of the difficult people. No, every country is anxious about the

:31:54.:31:56.

effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see

:31:57.:32:04.

why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but

:32:05.:32:09.

there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told

:32:10.:32:17.

me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the

:32:18.:32:22.

status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries

:32:23.:32:25.

about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's

:32:26.:32:34.

be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always

:32:35.:32:40.

been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when

:32:41.:32:43.

the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,

:32:44.:32:48.

a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But

:32:49.:32:53.

immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt

:32:54.:32:57.

not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these

:32:58.:33:02.

politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools

:33:03.:33:06.

and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if

:33:07.:33:13.

these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on

:33:14.:33:16.

the left and right were not listening to them and they may have

:33:17.:33:17.

been right. I thought my last election campaign

:33:18.:33:26.

on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the

:33:27.:33:30.

problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,

:33:31.:33:34.

because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this

:33:35.:33:38.

country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither

:33:39.:33:42.

did the last Labour government, and this government has not built

:33:43.:33:46.

enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the

:33:47.:33:50.

Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie

:33:51.:34:09.

Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the

:34:10.:34:14.

EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in

:34:15.:34:17.

education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?

:34:18.:34:23.

Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to

:34:24.:34:26.

deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a

:34:27.:34:32.

whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped

:34:33.:34:38.

together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not

:34:39.:34:41.

centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,

:34:42.:34:46.

I do except there were communities, and when people see their

:34:47.:34:49.

communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people, you

:34:50.:34:55.

have got to deal with that. Yes, I agree, but the answer is not to get

:34:56.:34:59.

out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not

:35:00.:35:03.

fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the

:35:04.:35:09.

campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people

:35:10.:35:13.

understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the

:35:14.:35:20.

problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,

:35:21.:35:24.

jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving

:35:25.:35:28.

Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come

:35:29.:35:33.

is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by

:35:34.:35:38.

reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that

:35:39.:35:43.

realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This

:35:44.:35:47.

morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie

:35:48.:35:53.

Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting

:35:54.:35:57.

to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should

:35:58.:36:03.

there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.

:36:04.:36:16.

-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than

:36:17.:36:20.

I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the

:36:21.:36:25.

Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am

:36:26.:36:27.

not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony

:36:28.:36:29.

Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting

:36:30.:36:39.

troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP,

:36:40.:36:45.

Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called

:36:46.:36:52.

on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. -- for mayor.

:36:53.:36:52.

Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.

:36:53.:36:54.

She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events

:36:55.:36:57.

Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister

:36:58.:37:02.

in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the

:37:03.:37:09.

UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet

:37:10.:37:10.

minister. With me now is the former

:37:11.:37:11.

Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under

:37:12.:37:14.

Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the

:37:15.:37:23.

referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going

:37:24.:37:29.

to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from

:37:30.:37:34.

now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory

:37:35.:37:39.

for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that

:37:40.:37:44.

this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum

:37:45.:37:48.

clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality

:37:49.:37:55.

is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the

:37:56.:38:00.

European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen

:38:01.:38:05.

agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a

:38:06.:38:09.

nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We

:38:10.:38:15.

will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the

:38:16.:38:18.

drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language

:38:19.:38:23.

you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European

:38:24.:38:27.

Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should

:38:28.:38:34.

not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in

:38:35.:38:39.

Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a

:38:40.:38:45.

debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on

:38:46.:38:49.

Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British

:38:50.:38:54.

phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the

:38:55.:38:58.

direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the

:38:59.:39:02.

Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that

:39:03.:39:06.

was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within

:39:07.:39:12.

the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel

:39:13.:39:17.

has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,

:39:18.:39:22.

one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you

:39:23.:39:26.

can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that

:39:27.:39:31.

the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of

:39:32.:39:34.

events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered

:39:35.:39:40.

reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard

:39:41.:39:44.

European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great

:39:45.:39:49.

Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal

:39:50.:39:54.

does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an

:39:55.:39:59.

organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the

:40:00.:40:03.

very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work

:40:04.:40:08.

together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the

:40:09.:40:11.

biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something

:40:12.:40:16.

which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage

:40:17.:40:20.

the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon

:40:21.:40:26.

start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative

:40:27.:40:31.

Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on

:40:32.:40:36.

Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an

:40:37.:40:39.

excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round

:40:40.:40:43.

the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of

:40:44.:40:46.

admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his

:40:47.:40:52.

decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new

:40:53.:40:56.

arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be

:40:57.:41:01.

undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?

:41:02.:41:07.

I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of

:41:08.:41:11.

admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would

:41:12.:41:16.

give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris

:41:17.:41:21.

Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so

:41:22.:41:27.

I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and

:41:28.:41:29.

Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a

:41:30.:41:34.

leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point, so

:41:35.:41:39.

far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European

:41:40.:41:43.

Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to

:41:44.:41:46.

show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that

:41:47.:41:54.

we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be

:41:55.:41:58.

quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single

:41:59.:42:04.

model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a

:42:05.:42:07.

different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of

:42:08.:42:11.

relationship within the European Union. This will be another

:42:12.:42:15.

different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When

:42:16.:42:20.

people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single

:42:21.:42:24.

financial market, the answer is, why not? You need to show why. Everyone

:42:25.:42:30.

has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in

:42:31.:42:33.

the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of

:42:34.:42:38.

self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and

:42:39.:42:41.

straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the

:42:42.:42:45.

benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things

:42:46.:42:49.

that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of

:42:50.:42:55.

movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it

:42:56.:42:59.

is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many

:43:00.:43:03.

parts of the political spectrum, both in Britain and across the EU.

:43:04.:43:08.

What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,

:43:09.:43:11.

people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we

:43:12.:43:16.

have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just

:43:17.:43:21.

in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but

:43:22.:43:28.

the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign

:43:29.:43:30.

ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling

:43:31.:43:35.

Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald

:43:36.:43:41.

Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has

:43:42.:43:46.

not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you

:43:47.:43:51.

listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in

:43:52.:43:54.

a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,

:43:55.:44:00.

they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest

:44:01.:44:04.

neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect

:44:05.:44:11.

on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by

:44:12.:44:16.

all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what

:44:17.:44:21.

is in their collective self-interest, then I think you

:44:22.:44:25.

start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not

:44:26.:44:28.

need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to

:44:29.:44:33.

be part of the negotiating team? I have not. Would you say yes? You

:44:34.:44:39.

have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the

:44:40.:44:44.

EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics

:44:45.:44:48.

and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really

:44:49.:44:53.

matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is

:44:54.:44:57.

the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key

:44:58.:45:01.

negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it

:45:02.:45:08.

needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive

:45:09.:45:13.

and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive

:45:14.:45:18.

vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will

:45:19.:45:22.

need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as

:45:23.:45:26.

the role as leader of the party. Francis Maude, thank you very much.

:45:27.:45:32.

Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

:45:33.:45:36.

who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy

:45:37.:45:39.

Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk

:45:40.:45:45.

we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No

:45:46.:45:49.

more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having

:45:50.:45:54.

second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am

:45:55.:46:03.

joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave

:46:04.:46:06.

campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?

:46:07.:46:10.

We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would

:46:11.:46:14.

like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign

:46:15.:46:18.

Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European

:46:19.:46:23.

partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably

:46:24.:46:26.

when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the

:46:27.:46:30.

existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins

:46:31.:46:34.

the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the

:46:35.:46:42.

autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to

:46:43.:46:45.

put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,

:46:46.:46:48.

established a trade department. We will want to see as members of

:46:49.:46:52.

Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a

:46:53.:46:56.

Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is

:46:57.:47:01.

preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see

:47:02.:47:05.

what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so

:47:06.:47:09.

that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in

:47:10.:47:15.

the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we

:47:16.:47:19.

begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new

:47:20.:47:24.

Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from

:47:25.:47:28.

the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of

:47:29.:47:32.

the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would

:47:33.:47:36.

bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see

:47:37.:47:42.

a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of

:47:43.:47:45.

January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European

:47:46.:47:50.

leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the

:47:51.:47:53.

commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the

:47:54.:47:58.

discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal

:47:59.:48:03.

discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal

:48:04.:48:08.

talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or

:48:09.:48:12.

a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.

:48:13.:48:17.

What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not

:48:18.:48:21.

answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the

:48:22.:48:25.

Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year. You

:48:26.:48:30.

will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no

:48:31.:48:33.

one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You

:48:34.:48:38.

are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out

:48:39.:48:44.

some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering

:48:45.:48:45.

Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon

:48:46.:48:53.

because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in

:48:54.:49:00.

those discussions. The brothel -- Brussels bureaucracy regard as

:49:01.:49:04.

impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got

:49:05.:49:07.

to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in

:49:08.:49:11.

this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for

:49:12.:49:18.

instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the

:49:19.:49:22.

Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who

:49:23.:49:30.

understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,

:49:31.:49:38.

Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter

:49:39.:49:42.

Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we

:49:43.:49:46.

need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what

:49:47.:49:51.

preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel

:49:52.:49:54.

Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan

:49:55.:50:01.

Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical

:50:02.:50:05.

decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of

:50:06.:50:09.

honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week

:50:10.:50:17.

to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of

:50:18.:50:26.

course that is only available once we have actually left the European

:50:27.:50:31.

Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the

:50:32.:50:35.

Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have

:50:36.:50:39.

now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and

:50:40.:50:45.

what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were

:50:46.:50:49.

reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they

:50:50.:50:54.

could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like

:50:55.:51:05.

160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls

:51:06.:51:10.

to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes

:51:11.:51:15.

off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be

:51:16.:51:20.

taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar

:51:21.:51:25.

to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be

:51:26.:51:31.

involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the

:51:32.:51:36.

MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a

:51:37.:51:43.

range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at

:51:44.:51:48.

the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes

:51:49.:51:54.

all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the

:51:55.:51:59.

system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,

:52:00.:52:08.

first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six

:52:09.:52:14.

candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to

:52:15.:52:18.

decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until

:52:19.:52:23.

November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has

:52:24.:52:27.

huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks

:52:28.:52:33.

under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger

:52:34.:52:39.

article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end

:52:40.:52:46.

of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having

:52:47.:52:52.

that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it

:52:53.:52:55.

might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for

:52:56.:53:01.

the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,

:53:02.:53:05.

William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't

:53:06.:53:11.

decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have

:53:12.:53:14.

spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're

:53:15.:53:19.

hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I

:53:20.:53:25.

might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank

:53:26.:53:28.

you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a

:53:29.:53:51.

pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also

:53:52.:53:53.

a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again

:53:54.:53:55.

behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in

:53:56.:54:06.

someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting

:54:07.:54:14.

it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair

:54:15.:54:20.

was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I

:54:21.:54:34.

was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the

:54:35.:54:38.

old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early

:54:39.:54:44.

to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.

:54:45.:54:50.

Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very

:54:51.:54:57.

close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point? No,

:54:58.:55:03.

and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we

:55:04.:55:08.

start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out

:55:09.:55:15.

predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,

:55:16.:55:22.

Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,

:55:23.:55:31.

not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.

:55:32.:55:37.

Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the

:55:38.:55:42.

kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I

:55:43.:55:49.

will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them

:55:50.:55:57.

voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What

:55:58.:56:02.

do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been

:56:03.:56:07.

saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has

:56:08.:56:15.

demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but

:56:16.:56:22.

pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I

:56:23.:56:26.

think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be

:56:27.:56:29.

a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a

:56:30.:56:34.

leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by

:56:35.:56:44.

the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob

:56:45.:56:48.

Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.

:56:49.:56:57.

I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration

:56:58.:57:00.

Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy

:57:01.:57:06.

shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can

:57:07.:57:08.

He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.

:57:09.:57:13.

Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared

:57:14.:57:15.

The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market

:57:16.:57:19.

has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.

:57:20.:57:22.

The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement

:57:23.:57:25.

I love this country and I feel honoured to have

:57:26.:57:32.

The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,

:57:33.:57:39.

David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation

:57:40.:57:53.

on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership

:57:54.:57:55.

To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be

:57:56.:58:07.

If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down

:58:08.:58:11.

via first past the post, until they are left

:58:12.:58:13.

Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,

:58:14.:58:18.

said to be about 150,000 strong, who decide the winner

:58:19.:58:21.

David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place

:58:22.:58:26.

by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts

:58:27.:58:28.

But it will be the backbench 1922 Committee which decides

:58:29.:58:35.

They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.

:58:36.:58:43.

I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

:58:44.:58:51.

Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the

:58:52.:59:05.

EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may

:59:06.:59:10.

be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to

:59:11.:59:17.

decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the

:59:18.:59:22.

Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to

:59:23.:59:27.

have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It

:59:28.:59:33.

may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote

:59:34.:59:37.

for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all

:59:38.:59:41.

who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just

:59:42.:59:45.

unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to

:59:46.:59:50.

remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think

:59:51.:59:55.

that will come into the equation because the country has voted to

:59:56.:59:59.

leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has

:00:00.:00:03.

moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are

:00:04.:00:09.

the main candidate in your view? Who knows, because no one has put

:00:10.:00:13.

themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe

:00:14.:00:20.

Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from

:00:21.:00:25.

her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including

:00:26.:00:30.

Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George

:00:31.:00:41.

Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has

:00:42.:00:50.

made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because

:00:51.:00:57.

with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of

:00:58.:01:04.

democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential

:01:05.:01:07.

challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we

:01:08.:01:11.

are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in

:01:12.:01:14.

terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is

:01:15.:01:18.

dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it

:01:19.:01:21.

will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal

:01:22.:01:25.

with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a

:01:26.:01:29.

party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get

:01:30.:01:34.

its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue

:01:35.:01:40.

has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime

:01:41.:01:45.

ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there

:01:46.:01:48.

any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it

:01:49.:01:52.

doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we

:01:53.:02:00.

should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,

:02:01.:02:04.

pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously

:02:05.:02:10.

the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss

:02:11.:02:13.

other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make

:02:14.:02:20.

of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs

:02:21.:02:23.

rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the

:02:24.:02:27.

wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st

:02:28.:02:32.

with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference

:02:33.:02:36.

if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until

:02:37.:02:41.

the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then

:02:42.:02:45.

whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of

:02:46.:02:50.

November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the

:02:51.:02:55.

membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing

:02:56.:02:59.

a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the

:03:00.:03:03.

country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism

:03:04.:03:04.

at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short

:03:05.:03:15.

list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a

:03:16.:03:19.

leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country

:03:20.:03:24.

needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very

:03:25.:03:26.

much. It's not just Her

:03:27.:03:28.

Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks

:03:29.:03:29.

of Plates also appear to be

:03:30.:03:30.

shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn

:03:31.:03:35.

sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night

:03:36.:03:37.

and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting

:03:38.:03:40.

of the The secret ballot will not

:03:41.:03:41.

have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden

:03:42.:03:50.

others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum

:03:51.:03:54.

against their leader. So far, MPs, including

:03:55.:03:57.

Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,

:03:58.:04:02.

have already said they However, in order to depose

:04:03.:04:04.

a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have

:04:05.:04:09.

to put themselves forward, and receive the support

:04:10.:04:11.

of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,

:04:12.:04:14.

so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing

:04:15.:04:18.

to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures

:04:19.:04:20.

that level of support, a contest will be held

:04:21.:04:31.

at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool

:04:32.:04:34.

at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter

:04:35.:04:38.

the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,

:04:39.:04:41.

one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered

:04:42.:04:49.

supporters. If more than two candidates stand,

:04:50.:04:52.

voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%

:04:53.:05:03.

on first preference, the last placed candidate

:05:04.:05:05.

is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets

:05:06.:05:07.

above the threshold. We are now hearing that another

:05:08.:05:16.

Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of

:05:17.:05:19.

the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to

:05:20.:05:22.

be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.

:05:23.:05:23.

With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.

:05:24.:05:28.

Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a

:05:29.:05:35.

time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when

:05:36.:05:39.

nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for

:05:40.:05:44.

the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of

:05:45.:05:48.

composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be

:05:49.:05:57.

thinking about the nation first. What is happening in your Shadow

:05:58.:06:00.

Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a

:06:01.:06:03.

Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities

:06:04.:06:06.

than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the

:06:07.:06:10.

defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to

:06:11.:06:14.

be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is

:06:15.:06:20.

happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for

:06:21.:06:26.

me but the important thing is we remain

:06:27.:06:26.

me but the important thing is we me but the important thing is we

:06:27.:06:29.

remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important

:06:30.:06:32.

thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at

:06:33.:06:37.

what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to

:06:38.:06:45.

show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall

:06:46.:06:48.

times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership

:06:49.:06:53.

challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues

:06:54.:06:56.

in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they

:06:57.:07:00.

seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the

:07:01.:07:04.

referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that

:07:05.:07:07.

Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory

:07:08.:07:13.

in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the

:07:14.:07:18.

campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David

:07:19.:07:22.

Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in

:07:23.:07:27.

this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David

:07:28.:07:32.

Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about

:07:33.:07:37.

his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being

:07:38.:07:39.

blue on blue. When I spoke Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:07:40.:07:51.

in Northern Ireland. The die has been cast and the UK

:07:52.:07:53.

has voted to leave the EU. But with years

:07:54.:07:56.

of negotiations ahead, there will almost

:07:57.:07:59.

certainly be profound implications I'll be asking the Finance Minister

:08:00.:08:00.

and the Economy Minister for their thoughts

:08:01.:08:06.

after these momentous few days. We'll hear from the Secretary

:08:07.:08:08.

of State, Theresa Villiers - a leading figure

:08:09.:08:11.

in the Leave campaign, of course. Plus our official opposition

:08:12.:08:13.

parties and Alliance, and also Dublin and Scotland

:08:14.:08:16.

as the reverberations continue. And with me throughout

:08:17.:08:20.

with their thoughts, Professor David Phinnemore

:08:21.:08:21.

and Felicity Huston. Northern Ireland voted strongly

:08:22.:08:31.

for Remain on Thursday, but that made no difference

:08:32.:08:33.

to the overall result which has caused shockwaves across Europe,

:08:34.:08:36.

cost the Prime Minister his job, and thrown the future

:08:37.:08:40.

of the Leader of the Opposition will also have

:08:41.:08:42.

major implications here. So how will the two Executive

:08:43.:08:48.

parties manage the change? Joining me now are Simon Hamilton

:08:49.:08:52.

and Mairtin O Muilleoir. Welcome. It is an unfolding

:08:53.:09:03.

situation this morning. Lots of developments in London, as far as

:09:04.:09:06.

the Labour Party is concerned, and possible developers in Scotland as

:09:07.:09:10.

well. The DUP is a Unionist party looking at the potential break-up of

:09:11.:09:15.

the UK. At that be a good thing from your point of view? Let's see what

:09:16.:09:21.

happens. It is a rapidly changing and unfolding situation. Clearly,

:09:22.:09:25.

there are issues in respect of Scotland and what Nicola Sturgeon

:09:26.:09:31.

has said. The Scottish people made a clear decision in the last few

:09:32.:09:33.

years, they wanted to remain within the European union. That is a matter

:09:34.:09:38.

for them in concert with the UK government to take forward. The

:09:39.:09:42.

people of the United Kingdom have taken a clear decision in respect of

:09:43.:09:51.

wanting to leave. I respect and understand that there are many

:09:52.:09:53.

people who have concerns about what it means for Northern Ireland, first

:09:54.:09:58.

and foremost, but for also the rest of the UK as well. We have got to

:09:59.:10:03.

deal with that decision. One thing that is clear, particularly from the

:10:04.:10:06.

Prime Minister's announcement on Friday, this will take a long period

:10:07.:10:10.

of time to work its way through. Remain campaigners throughout this

:10:11.:10:16.

process said, if you thought to leave, it will be a leap in the

:10:17.:10:20.

dark. And it has turned out to be a leap in the dark because there are

:10:21.:10:24.

so many unknowns. We don't know what will happen on so many issues. We

:10:25.:10:28.

could have a conversation about the next couple of hours and not reach

:10:29.:10:32.

any conclusions. There are also various campaigners who were

:10:33.:10:40.

spectating on doom and gloom which did not happen straight away. We

:10:41.:10:43.

have to deal with the decision in a way that is best for Northern

:10:44.:10:47.

Ireland. We need to remain calm and get some stability. We have had a

:10:48.:10:52.

pretty fractious debate at a national level. The decision has

:10:53.:10:57.

been taken. We need to work through what is best for Northern Ireland.

:10:58.:11:03.

All of the parts of the UK need to be part of the negotiations, to work

:11:04.:11:12.

together. We have a border with the EU. We need to be part of the

:11:13.:11:18.

negotiations to get the best deal for Northern Ireland. Do you accept

:11:19.:11:28.

that broad thrust, that we are where we are, we have to work through it

:11:29.:11:32.

step-by-step. There are parts of that but I accept. I want to commend

:11:33.:11:36.

those who voted to Remain. It is not often that Green and orange unite.

:11:37.:11:43.

It is the great heart. It does not matter, does it? I think the

:11:44.:11:49.

Scottish voted our vote does make it difference. I take my mandate from

:11:50.:11:52.

the people of the North who voted overwhelmingly to stay. That

:11:53.:11:57.

aspiration, as Nicola Sturgeon described it, but demand that we

:11:58.:12:02.

should be with Europe, that is how I will beg I did in the time ahead.

:12:03.:12:06.

I'm not conceding that the decision of the bulk of people in England,

:12:07.:12:10.

had their play to them, means that we have to leave as well. How will

:12:11.:12:14.

you try to put a spanner in the works? We will need to talk with

:12:15.:12:23.

common purpose. I know he was cheering on the fans, so he has lost

:12:24.:12:31.

his voice. There are things that give us common purpose. You have to

:12:32.:12:36.

respect the mandate, you have to respect the boat. You have to ask

:12:37.:12:41.

the people, did the consent to Brexit. They did not consent, and

:12:42.:12:45.

that has to guide me. You both want to work together to get the best

:12:46.:12:48.

deal, but you do not accept the basic premise that the UK has voted

:12:49.:12:52.

to leave the European Union. How can you work together when you don't

:12:53.:12:57.

except the basic verdict? I'm not disputing that a majority of the UK

:12:58.:13:02.

and thought Italy. The most important thing to me, and where I

:13:03.:13:07.

will take my lead from, is that most of the people here, orange and

:13:08.:13:11.

Green, the business community, the entrepreneurs, those who benefit in

:13:12.:13:16.

the border region, those who benefit from life sciences funding from

:13:17.:13:25.

Europe, the voted to remain. I requested contingency papers from my

:13:26.:13:30.

department, in the key areas around the economy, read European funding,

:13:31.:13:34.

around our negotiation with the Treasury. We reviewed those on

:13:35.:13:39.

Friday, we took Stark and it is our view that everything has changed. --

:13:40.:13:41.

we took Stark. There were 14 consecutive pages of

:13:42.:13:50.

chaos and crisis was not in this no man's land, it is our job to get the

:13:51.:13:56.

best deal. Our negotiation assignment is not only with the

:13:57.:14:03.

British government, as it negotiates Brexit, but also on the other side

:14:04.:14:08.

of the table. There are Irish citizens here, 1.8 million of them,

:14:09.:14:13.

so we have do meet on the other side of the table as well. That is for

:14:14.:14:20.

another day. He has got his departmental officials together, and

:14:21.:14:24.

he has looked at the numbers and he is trying to act the way forward.

:14:25.:14:28.

What about the Executive meeting? Any plans for that tomorrow? That

:14:29.:14:31.

would seem obvious. We are making this week. But not tomorrow? I don't

:14:32.:14:40.

think there is one scheduled. She it not be? People are working through

:14:41.:14:42.

the ramifications in their department. I'm sure all about

:14:43.:14:48.

Executive colleagues are trying to understand them. We are trying to

:14:49.:14:55.

understand the applications for each of their departments. As we prepare

:14:56.:15:02.

for that, senior officials in the civil service are talking to their

:15:03.:15:05.

counterparts in Whitehall, talking about counterparts in Brussels as

:15:06.:15:08.

well, to work through all of this and see what it means in the

:15:09.:15:11.

short-term. Particularly to prepare for those negotiations in this

:15:12.:15:14.

turmoil. The Deputy First Minister Martin

:15:15.:15:16.

McGuinness is being interviewed A majority people in the North,

:15:17.:15:33.

unionist, nationalists and republicans wish to remain in

:15:34.:15:41.

Europe. That cannot be ignored by the British Gutman, the Irish

:15:42.:15:44.

government or the powers that be in the European Union. What we do need

:15:45.:15:51.

in future isn't island of Ireland solution to the problem. That

:15:52.:15:54.

requires the attention of the Taoiseach in particular. I was

:15:55.:15:58.

disturbed in the course of the last few days whenever the Taoiseach

:15:59.:16:03.

focused on how so pathetic the Irish, to be to a British government

:16:04.:16:09.

that was negotiating its way out of the European Union in the next few

:16:10.:16:13.

years. The he should have been focusing on the Democratic wishes of

:16:14.:16:24.

people. I spoke to them on Friday and I have arranged an urgent

:16:25.:16:33.

meeting with the Taoiseach. There is an overwhelming desire following

:16:34.:16:35.

that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, in the EU. Why would that

:16:36.:16:47.

translate to an overwhelming desire for Irish unification? It is

:16:48.:16:55.

something that I think could be conducted at the very -- in a very

:16:56.:17:01.

civilised fashion. As it was conducted in Scotland. There is an

:17:02.:17:06.

overwhelming desire, stated just from the boat last Thursday for what

:17:07.:17:11.

you are calling for? I didn't say that there was. What I did say was

:17:12.:17:18.

that I do believe that exercise is one that should be undertaken at

:17:19.:17:20.

some stage in the future. The immediate focus needs to be on how

:17:21.:17:27.

we continue our relationship with the European Union. That is where my

:17:28.:17:30.

focus is. That is why I think the discussions with the Taoiseach are

:17:31.:17:34.

urgent, and require immediate attention. As do discussions with

:17:35.:17:39.

the powers that be at the European Union. Whenever you consider the

:17:40.:17:45.

position of Scotland, which is also over worming the -- which has all

:17:46.:17:59.

overwhelmingly voted to remain. They need to take the Democratic wishes

:18:00.:18:06.

of the people in Northern Ireland into account. That is a negotiation

:18:07.:18:11.

with the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Taoiseach, when asked about the

:18:12.:18:21.

border poll, he said there are more immediate problems to deal with, and

:18:22.:18:24.

that is where the focus should live. My focus lies on how we need to

:18:25.:18:30.

maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you're not

:18:31.:18:35.

interested in the border poll? We do believe that there should be a

:18:36.:18:37.

border poll at some stage in the future. I think in the immediate

:18:38.:18:42.

future the focus needs to be on the whole issue of how we can maintain a

:18:43.:18:47.

relationship with Europe, which has been so beneficial to us over the

:18:48.:18:51.

course of the last number of decades. Whenever you consider the

:18:52.:18:55.

dangers for us in terms of the dangers to our ability to develop

:18:56.:18:59.

our economy, the dangers to the prospect of border controls, which I

:19:00.:19:05.

think would represent a very serious undermining of the Good Friday

:19:06.:19:10.

Agreement. The whole issue of foreign direct investment, which is

:19:11.:19:14.

threatened by the decision to pull out of Europe, particularly from

:19:15.:19:17.

North America. These are the issues Chuck being exercised at the moment.

:19:18.:19:21.

But you cannot do that unless there was some sort of referendum on Irish

:19:22.:19:25.

unification. You cannot do that from within the UK since the UK has noted

:19:26.:19:31.

as a whole to leave. There needs to be special arrangements, which take

:19:32.:19:36.

account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

:19:37.:19:39.

the North of Ireland. And the people of Scotland, who wished to remain,

:19:40.:19:45.

and maintain our contacts and ability to work with very senior

:19:46.:19:50.

officials and government authorities within Europe. So I think that, from

:19:51.:19:55.

my perspective, in the immediate future, although you are focused on

:19:56.:19:59.

the issue of the border poll, and we do believe they should be won at

:20:00.:20:01.

some stage in the future, the immediate task has to be how the

:20:02.:20:07.

democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the North of

:20:08.:20:13.

Ireland can be catered for in the context of this huge debate which

:20:14.:20:15.

will ensue over the course of the next number of months. We are very

:20:16.:20:20.

disturbed that the British Prime Minister has clearly indicated that

:20:21.:20:23.

there will be no engagement with Europe on the whole issue of Article

:20:24.:20:28.

50 until there is a new Prime Minister. Thank you.

:20:29.:20:32.

So that was the deputy First Minister in our foil studio talking

:20:33.:20:36.

to joke Cockburn in London. I want to pick up on that final

:20:37.:20:47.

point. He talked about the need for special arrangements for people in

:20:48.:20:52.

Scotland, but here in Northern Ireland in particular, to allow for

:20:53.:20:58.

the democratic wishes of people here to continue to have links with the

:20:59.:21:01.

European Union to be accommodated. Can that be done? The negotiations

:21:02.:21:08.

which will start at some point in the future, weather there is a new

:21:09.:21:13.

premise that is -- when there is a new Prime Minister in place, that is

:21:14.:21:19.

the right way to do that. I think we as an Executive should be going to

:21:20.:21:24.

those negotiations, making it clear to the new Prime Minister, the gamut

:21:25.:21:31.

in London, and to the European commission, that there are

:21:32.:21:34.

particular circumstances in Northern Ireland. We need to recognise the

:21:35.:21:37.

system of government that we have, the aspect of our economy which have

:21:38.:21:42.

different needs to England or Scotland or Wales, and the fact we

:21:43.:21:45.

will have a border will which is going to be the border of the

:21:46.:21:48.

European Union. It is an important border, one which we have made

:21:49.:21:54.

significant progress on in recent years, and we don't want to see that

:21:55.:21:59.

go backwards. But can we have a bespoke solution to this problem?

:22:00.:22:04.

Surely... People at home will be saying, these words are interesting,

:22:05.:22:07.

but you are either in the EU or you are not in the ice. Either you are

:22:08.:22:14.

in the United Kingdom, not estimate you cannot have a foot in every cap.

:22:15.:22:19.

Absolutely. We will remain as part of the United Kingdom, but the

:22:20.:22:25.

decision has been made to leave the EU. We do need... We'll be missing

:22:26.:22:35.

an opportunity not to go into these negotiations and say, while we have

:22:36.:22:38.

to deal with the decision that has been made, there must be a tailoring

:22:39.:22:44.

of options for Northern Ireland. He was the point for you. We hear that

:22:45.:22:50.

Arlene Foster took a phone call from David Cameron on Friday, I think, at

:22:51.:22:55.

Stormont Castle. He assured her that the devolved assemblies to, the

:22:56.:23:02.

devolved government would have some sort of input in the negotiations

:23:03.:23:07.

that Simon Hamilton is referring to that. He can only speak on behalf of

:23:08.:23:14.

the office alongside the Debbie to First Minister. They take

:23:15.:23:20.

diametrically opposed positions on the Mrs of the European Union. How

:23:21.:23:26.

will that work? They were both in that call with Mr Cameron, and

:23:27.:23:31.

whatever our lack of confidence in what he says, negotiating for us,

:23:32.:23:38.

God forbid, would be Boris Johnson or Michael Gove. It could be! We

:23:39.:23:46.

need to be front and centre to those negotiations. I disagree that we

:23:47.:23:49.

have to be in or out. Our status within the UK is not the same of

:23:50.:23:54.

Sunderland Newcastle, we do have a set of arrangements here which

:23:55.:24:00.

opportunity to Europe. I will not concede that our people voted to,

:24:01.:24:04.

because they did not. I remain determined to defend... So you are

:24:05.:24:10.

looking for a bespoke solution? I am not saying that. People here voted

:24:11.:24:18.

to remain. Quickly. I spoke to the CBI, there will be a recession,

:24:19.:24:22.

people will go down to the dull centres. The people who rebounded to

:24:23.:24:29.

remain will fight to defend... Martin McGuinness was out on Friday,

:24:30.:24:32.

saying that we have to have the border poll, not backed by Arlene

:24:33.:24:36.

Foster or the Secretary of State. Interesting there, saying that is

:24:37.:24:42.

not my number one priority. Is that falling back in terms of importance

:24:43.:24:50.

for Sinn Fein? We are still for a border poll, and we do believe this

:24:51.:24:54.

special set of circumstances are giving people pause to reflect,

:24:55.:25:00.

North and south of it. I have confidence that as we start these

:25:01.:25:04.

negotiations, I spoke to the Finance Minister of Scotland on Friday about

:25:05.:25:12.

this matter as well. Whatever happens to Sunderland and London,

:25:13.:25:14.

they will remain wedded to the rest of this Ireland. The House of

:25:15.:25:23.

Commons ultimately has to vote on this issue. It has to sign off on

:25:24.:25:29.

it. As I understand it, reading stuff over the weekend, about 160 of

:25:30.:25:36.

the MPs are pro-leave. Do you think that is about the Easter happen? The

:25:37.:25:38.

except that the leave camp might lose it? Even the issue of saying

:25:39.:25:46.

for certain that the United Kingdom is leaving the EU is not something

:25:47.:25:53.

we can say at this stage? The Labour Party have more important things to

:25:54.:25:57.

worry about, with what has happened this morning, but parliamentarians

:25:58.:26:01.

who would disrespect the views of the clear instructions given to them

:26:02.:26:04.

by the British people will be making a huge mistake. I completely

:26:05.:26:10.

understand the concerns of many people, particularly in Northern

:26:11.:26:15.

Ireland, who voted to remain. You're going to disregard their views?

:26:16.:26:23.

We're not going to. That is the difficulty. You are supposed to be

:26:24.:26:28.

negotiating on this place, whether you call it Northern Ireland or the

:26:29.:26:32.

North of Ireland, on behalf of all of the people. Some want to stay,

:26:33.:26:34.

some want to leave. There is not much common ground. If I may, this

:26:35.:26:41.

common purpose is that we both want the best deal for the people you

:26:42.:26:48.

represent. Your best deal is not go into be his best deal. There are

:26:49.:26:53.

unionists and nationalists on both side of the vote on Thursday. What

:26:54.:26:59.

we have to do it agree on, and we can discussion our positions on the

:27:00.:27:04.

border and England and so on, we had differences on those. What we are

:27:05.:27:09.

united on is getting the best for Northern Ireland. What we have to do

:27:10.:27:12.

is to have some calmness and stability in the next couple of

:27:13.:27:17.

weeks and discuss what is best for Northern Ireland in the discussions

:27:18.:27:19.

that will take place will stop I fundamentally believe there are huge

:27:20.:27:22.

opportunities for Northern Ireland in the new dispensation that will

:27:23.:27:31.

take place. We have to have those special circumstances that we have

:27:32.:27:35.

acknowledged. We need to look at where we are spending the money to

:27:36.:27:41.

increase the levels of investment that are coming into Northern

:27:42.:27:43.

Ireland, unshackled from the geography of Brussels. Let me ask

:27:44.:27:55.

you this about the House of Lords. Very quickly, the House of Lords EU

:27:56.:28:03.

committee, it applies a while ago, it made clear that the Scottish

:28:04.:28:05.

Parliament's consent would be required and due to the European

:28:06.:28:11.

committees act being entrenched in the devolution settlement is of

:28:12.:28:13.

Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no need for consent... Not only

:28:14.:28:23.

would Westminster have to give consent, but so would Stormont and

:28:24.:28:29.

Edinburgh. Is that right? They did not cover that piece of uncertainty.

:28:30.:28:34.

Is that a valid point? I suspect it is. It is among the many points.

:28:35.:28:40.

There were a million questions to be asked. What I would say to the

:28:41.:28:54.

DUP... Do you accept that that is something, an obstacle you will have

:28:55.:28:59.

to over come in the weeks to come question Mike I have not had a

:29:00.:29:03.

chance to look at it. The parliament is sovereign. You are not talking

:29:04.:29:09.

about it on the terraces question they were. There was a concern about

:29:10.:29:14.

exiting from the European championship. The British people

:29:15.:29:21.

have made a clear decision. People of Northern Ireland took a clear

:29:22.:29:28.

decision. We have got to respect the clear decision they made and we need

:29:29.:29:31.

to do with it in a way that produces the best possible outcome. He have

:29:32.:29:32.

to leave it there. Let's hear from my

:29:33.:29:38.

guests of the day, Felicity Huston

:29:39.:29:41.

and David Phinnemore. David, you are an academic in this a

:29:42.:29:54.

area of study. Does there need to be a vote in the House of Commons on

:29:55.:29:59.

this issue? Does Parliament have the final say? What about the House of

:30:00.:30:03.

Lords EU committee suggestion that also Scotland and Northern Ireland

:30:04.:30:09.

would have do give support for the withdrawal to take place question

:30:10.:30:12.

Mike the issue we have got is that we have never been in this position

:30:13.:30:15.

before and there is no clarity around the procedures. There is an

:30:16.:30:21.

argument that it is up to the Prime Minister to trigger it. As for

:30:22.:30:31.

whether the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly would have

:30:32.:30:35.

to approve as well, but is unclear. Totally unclear. Given the pressure

:30:36.:30:42.

which is coming from Scotland, the principle of consent, I think

:30:43.:30:45.

politically if not legally, there is a strong argument to say that all of

:30:46.:30:49.

because different elements of the UK would need to support the decision.

:30:50.:30:53.

That is cleared the case at the moment. It is unclear. It is not

:30:54.:30:59.

laid down in any statute or any legislation. Where are you this

:31:00.:31:05.

morning? You were and if you just tick Lever. -- you were an

:31:06.:31:17.

enthusiastic Leave campaigner. Did you think we would have this absence

:31:18.:31:24.

of clarity on Sunni France? There was a surprise that Leave one

:31:25.:31:27.

because the media, the polls, the bookies, the political class at all

:31:28.:31:34.

said that it would not win. I gather Boris Johnson thought on Thursday

:31:35.:31:41.

evening... Nigel Farage conceded defeat. He is a flaky individual at

:31:42.:31:47.

the best of times. It was a big surprise. The reason there was such

:31:48.:31:57.

a, what happens now? Is because people did not think it would

:31:58.:31:59.

happen. You could not run a government without sophisticated

:32:00.:32:07.

civil servants saying, Minister, do we not have to have a look at the

:32:08.:32:10.

alternatives? Surely that must have been going on. What happens now?

:32:11.:32:19.

WSDL have the lack of clarity. We have turmoil within the Conservative

:32:20.:32:23.

party, within the Labour Party as well. We know what is happening in

:32:24.:32:27.

Scotland. That is developing. The issue is whether this is dealt with

:32:28.:32:32.

in a hurry, as some people suggest, or as Angela Merkel suggested

:32:33.:32:34.

yesterday, there is no rush, let's not be hasty, let's work it through

:32:35.:32:40.

step-by-step. At the moment, it seems to be a bit of both of those.

:32:41.:32:45.

It is, again, we are in uncharted territory. You're getting a solid

:32:46.:32:49.

position coming out of the European union is situations, demanding that

:32:50.:32:53.

Cameron signal as soon as the what his intention is. I think there is

:32:54.:32:56.

some Flex ability from Angela Merkel. But she is indicating that

:32:57.:33:03.

it is to be by the end of this year, Article 50 triggered, but then you

:33:04.:33:08.

are into the two dear period when the negotiations will have to take

:33:09.:33:12.

place. What we also need to bear in mind is there is a long process

:33:13.:33:15.

associated with that in terms of developing what the new glacial ship

:33:16.:33:19.

would be. There is a series of negotiations which need to take

:33:20.:33:22.

place. If you got through the withdrawal within two yes, there is

:33:23.:33:26.

a longer process of establishing the relationship. One of the key issues

:33:27.:33:32.

is not just looking at the imprecations but what we want from

:33:33.:33:33.

the future agreement. Would you like it to be quick, even

:33:34.:33:44.

if it is painful? Or do you accept this could go on? I don't think it

:33:45.:33:49.

should go on because I think people who voted Leave have an expectation

:33:50.:33:54.

that things are going to happen. If nothing happens, I think that is

:33:55.:33:55.

very dangerous for the country. Thanks both -

:33:56.:33:58.

we'll hear more from you later. As we heard earlier,

:33:59.:34:01.

the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, quickly rejected

:34:02.:34:03.

Sinn Fein calls for a border poll. Thank you very much indeed for

:34:04.:34:17.

joining us on the programme. Martin McGuinness just said to my colleague

:34:18.:34:22.

it is not the number one priority as far as I am concerned but it

:34:23.:34:27.

continues to be an issue. Sinn Fein have always wanted a border poll,

:34:28.:34:33.

why do you continue to rule it out? Sinn Fein have a very long-standing

:34:34.:34:37.

position that they support a border poll but the Belfast agreement is

:34:38.:34:41.

clear that the conditions that require me to call one are the

:34:42.:34:46.

belief that there is likely to be a majority for a united Ireland. I

:34:47.:34:50.

don't believe there are such grounds, therefore the conditions

:34:51.:34:53.

are not met and the border poll would therefore not be appropriate.

:34:54.:34:58.

We do not know, because this is an evolving situation, and it could

:34:59.:35:02.

just be that the rug has been pulled from nationalists in Northern

:35:03.:35:06.

Ireland, as far as the future relationship between this place and

:35:07.:35:10.

the European Union is concerned, and perhaps someday but who are genomic

:35:11.:35:14.

have been supportive of remaining in the UK could be changing their

:35:15.:35:18.

position. The only way to change and test that is to have a border poll.

:35:19.:35:23.

There are so many challenges in Northern Ireland that would not be

:35:24.:35:28.

helped by a border poll. It does not suit your purposes, be honest about

:35:29.:35:33.

it. What we want is a period of stability to prepare for the

:35:34.:35:37.

negotiations and engaging with the Northern Ireland executive will be

:35:38.:35:40.

crucial for that because they will be the recipients of many of the

:35:41.:35:44.

powers that are going to be coming back to the United Kingdom. They

:35:45.:35:48.

will be taking decisions on how to support our farmers. They need to be

:35:49.:35:53.

at the start of these negotiations. That is why the Prime Minister

:35:54.:35:57.

emphasised that this process would involve engagements with the

:35:58.:36:00.

devolved governments. The difficulty for you now is that you are out of

:36:01.:36:05.

step with the people of Northern Ireland. You were a significant

:36:06.:36:11.

figure in the Leave campaign but people voted to remain by 56% - 44%.

:36:12.:36:21.

Can you stay in your job? I can, and we need to remember that several

:36:22.:36:25.

thousand people in Northern Ireland voted to leave. I don't think it is

:36:26.:36:28.

unreasonable for the Secretary of State to hold the same they were on

:36:29.:36:32.

this matter as the First Minister, who has just been re-elected with a

:36:33.:36:36.

significant personal mandate in the Assembly election. We need to work

:36:37.:36:41.

together, those of us on both sides of the debate, to get the best terms

:36:42.:36:48.

for the UK on exiting the European Union, in particular to safeguard

:36:49.:36:51.

Northern Ireland's interests, to keep that land border open, and to

:36:52.:36:55.

retain our status as a great place to do business with the rest of

:36:56.:36:59.

Europe. I am confident we can do that and I will be in gauging

:37:00.:37:03.

widely, not just with politicians but with the business community.

:37:04.:37:08.

Would you not be very concerned that on the issue of foreign direct

:37:09.:37:13.

investment, Northern Ireland is unlikely to be as attractive

:37:14.:37:17.

tomorrow as it was last Wednesday? For the moment, nothing changes at

:37:18.:37:20.

all, but there are huge opportunities for Northern Ireland

:37:21.:37:25.

in the event of the Brexit taking place. We take control over trade

:37:26.:37:31.

deals, that means great opportunities for doing business

:37:32.:37:35.

with the rest of the world, but we will get a good radio with the

:37:36.:37:39.

European Union. There is a free-trade zone that stretches

:37:40.:37:42.

between Iceland and the Russian border. We will be part of its own

:37:43.:37:45.

Northern Ireland will still be a fantastic place to invest in, to

:37:46.:37:49.

create jobs and do business with the rest of Europe and the rest of the

:37:50.:37:54.

world. But the point is, there was clarity before, anybody wanting to

:37:55.:37:58.

invest in Northern Ireland and create jobs were sure this was an

:37:59.:38:02.

entry point to the rest of the European Union. That is not the case

:38:03.:38:06.

in future and therefore Northern Ireland is not necessarily as

:38:07.:38:08.

attractive to international investors as it was before. But

:38:09.:38:12.

there will be clarity because we will get eight radio. There may be,

:38:13.:38:17.

but there is not at the moment, that is the point. The European Union

:38:18.:38:22.

sells far more to us than we sell to them. And we will be preparing with

:38:23.:38:27.

care for the negotiations to star in due course. It is very important

:38:28.:38:32.

that every effort is made to do those preparations. I am working

:38:33.:38:37.

with my officials, I have spoken to the First Minister and the Deputy

:38:38.:38:41.

First Minister already. I have a constructive discussion with Charlie

:38:42.:38:51.

Flanagan. The finance minister is vigorously shaking his head in the

:38:52.:39:01.

studio. I have never heard a Secretary of State so out of touch

:39:02.:39:05.

with ordinary people on the ground. The damage that has been done to

:39:06.:39:08.

business confidence by this determination to drive us out of

:39:09.:39:13.

Europe. I can tell you that it is my resolve not to be dragged out of

:39:14.:39:16.

Europe and to accept the mandate given by remain in the time ahead. I

:39:17.:39:22.

want to be part of the negotiations, I don't want to be part of your

:39:23.:39:27.

team, I want an executive team. How do you respond to that? There is the

:39:28.:39:32.

nature of the problem you are now facing. It is not as simple as you

:39:33.:39:36.

are suggesting it will be. I believe it will be very important for the

:39:37.:39:40.

Northern Ireland executive to be part of this process. What we need

:39:41.:39:45.

to do now is to have an inclusive process which takes on the concerns

:39:46.:39:49.

of remain voters as well as leave voters. I believe that we can, a

:39:50.:39:55.

Brexit vote does not mean we pull up the drawbridge, we become

:39:56.:40:00.

isolationist. Of course the UK will still be outward looking, it will

:40:01.:40:04.

have a global approach, it will be trading with the European Union and

:40:05.:40:07.

the rest of the world, and it will be engaging on it friendly way on a

:40:08.:40:11.

whole range of issues with the European Union. That is the

:40:12.:40:15.

assurance we need to give to people who voted Remain. That is a

:40:16.:40:20.

discussion that will continue in the months ahead. There is a breaking

:40:21.:40:24.

situation this morning. Nicola Sturgeon says the Scottish

:40:25.:40:30.

Parliament could veto British exit from the European Union. She

:40:31.:40:36.

believes Hollywood -- Holyrood would have two support it and she would

:40:37.:40:41.

ask MSPs to refuse such legislative consent. How do you deal with that

:40:42.:40:47.

one? Parliament is sovereign but in the weeks and months ahead, we will

:40:48.:40:52.

be working with both the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland

:40:53.:40:55.

executive on all these issues, but ultimately it is parliament's

:40:56.:40:59.

decision whether we repeal the 1972 act or whether we don't. And if

:41:00.:41:05.

parliament is sovereign, does that mean the Labour MP David Lammy is

:41:06.:41:09.

right to say that MPs have to sign off on a British exit from the

:41:10.:41:13.

European Union, you need to have a vote, and with the current make-up

:41:14.:41:17.

you would struggle big time to get that book through because, as I

:41:18.:41:21.

understand it, there is an overwhelming majority of MPs in

:41:22.:41:26.

support of remain. But we had a vote as a United Kingdom, we voted to

:41:27.:41:30.

leave the European Union, and I hope that parliament will respect that

:41:31.:41:31.

decision. Very good to talk to you. It wasn't just Northern Ireland

:41:32.:41:37.

which voted to Remain. Scotland also gave the pro-EU side

:41:38.:41:40.

a strong endorsement. People there voted 62% to 38%

:41:41.:41:43.

to stay, and now Nicola Sturgeon has begun the process for a second

:41:44.:41:46.

Scottish independence referendum. This is what she had to say this

:41:47.:41:49.

morning on the Andrew Marr Show. My challenge now as First Minister

:41:50.:42:02.

is to work out how I best protect Scotland's interests, how I try to

:42:03.:42:06.

prevent as being taken out of the European Union against our will with

:42:07.:42:10.

all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences that will

:42:11.:42:14.

entail. Independence is not my starting point in this. Protecting

:42:15.:42:18.

Scotland's interests is my starting point, but if it is the case that

:42:19.:42:22.

looking again at the question of independence becomes the only way in

:42:23.:42:26.

which we can protect Scotland's interests, that is a debate and a

:42:27.:42:30.

conversation and a decision the people of Scotland have a right to

:42:31.:42:34.

take over the next period, but in all of this, it is about protecting

:42:35.:42:39.

Scotland's interests. If we do find ourselves in a position of looking

:42:40.:42:42.

again at the independence question this is not going to be a rewritten

:42:43.:42:50.

of the 2014 referendum. The contest has changed dramatically. The UK

:42:51.:42:53.

Scotland voted to remain within in 2014 does not exist any more.

:42:54.:42:58.

Whatever happens with Scotland, this issue of a border is going to have

:42:59.:43:01.

to be resolved in the context of Ireland. Some of these issues that

:43:02.:43:07.

would arise for Scotland, not all of them, I accept, but some of them

:43:08.:43:11.

arise anyway in the Irish context and are going to have to be

:43:12.:43:15.

resolved. These are issues that are live. I don't want to see in any

:43:16.:43:20.

circumstances a border between Scotland and England. Whatever

:43:21.:43:23.

happens, England is our nearest neighbour and I hope will be our

:43:24.:43:25.

best friend. Scotland's First Minister,

:43:26.:43:27.

Nicola Sturgeon. Dublin has also expressed concern

:43:28.:43:28.

about the potential impact of Brexit to the Fianna Fail TD,

:43:29.:43:31.

Declan Brennock. But first let's go to Glasgow

:43:32.:43:37.

and journalist Gerry Braiden. Thank you very much for joining us.

:43:38.:43:47.

Let's just talk about this developing story with Nicola

:43:48.:43:52.

Sturgeon and where she believes that there is legislative consent

:43:53.:43:57.

required from Scotland, from Holyrood, to remove the UK from the

:43:58.:44:02.

European Union and she would not recommend MSPs to give that

:44:03.:44:05.

legislative consent. How significant is that? The fact that this notion

:44:06.:44:11.

has only been doomed around in the last 24 hours and that the First

:44:12.:44:15.

Minister put this into the public domain three days after the vote

:44:16.:44:19.

tells a story in itself. It seems the case that the Scotland act of

:44:20.:44:24.

$1998 appeared to set out that Scotland would require, Scotland has

:44:25.:44:31.

the power to veto this, but this has been knocking around for 18 years

:44:32.:44:35.

and it is only now we are talking about this. It seems to be that we

:44:36.:44:40.

are looking at the future on the hoof. What we have is an

:44:41.:44:45.

interpretation of the Act and it is not as prescriptive as it might

:44:46.:44:49.

appear at this juncture. We have just been speaking to the Secretary

:44:50.:44:54.

of State and she absolutely rejected the First Minister of Scotland's

:44:55.:44:57.

position on this and she said parliament is sovereign and it is

:44:58.:45:03.

absolutely not to say it, it is to Westminster to decide. Everything

:45:04.:45:09.

that we are facing over the last three days, we are in absolutely

:45:10.:45:14.

uncharted terrain, and the fact we are only talking about this now, it

:45:15.:45:17.

seems like someone has just brought this into the mix and it remains to

:45:18.:45:22.

be seen whether there is any validity to this interpretation. I

:45:23.:45:26.

would not like to say that Theresa Villiers is right or Nicola Sturgeon

:45:27.:45:30.

is right but the fact it is out there suggest it is a story. What is

:45:31.:45:35.

the mood in Scotland this morning? We have just been hearing from

:45:36.:45:40.

Martin McGuinness who said, as far as he is concerned, somehow or

:45:41.:45:44.

other, the government in Westminster has to find a way to acknowledge the

:45:45.:45:48.

views of people in Northern Ireland want this place to remain part of

:45:49.:45:52.

the European Union, so we have got to come up with some sort of bespoke

:45:53.:45:56.

solution. Is that the mood where you are? Very much so. The 2014

:45:57.:46:02.

referendum continues to dominate Scottish politics and it was always

:46:03.:46:06.

going to be the case that in the event of a Brexit, it would very

:46:07.:46:10.

much come back into the mix. Some are very notable polls this morning,

:46:11.:46:17.

synonymous with an elderly readership, socially conservative,

:46:18.:46:23.

59% of people are now voting to leave the UK. 47% of whom are

:46:24.:46:30.

pensioners. The Sunday Herald, it was the only paper to back

:46:31.:46:34.

independence in 2014 and it has a deeper sense of 35,000 people who

:46:35.:46:39.

answered their poll saying they would also backed leave. And most

:46:40.:46:45.

significantly, the daily record, traditional Labour supporting paper,

:46:46.:46:50.

pretty pro-UK in the run-up to the 2014 election, and was also the

:46:51.:46:59.

newspaper promising enhanced devolution, it is in favour of a

:47:00.:47:02.

second referendum and has suggested it would also suggested it would

:47:03.:47:08.

support to leave the UK. There is very significant traction in that

:47:09.:47:13.

direction. But at the moment, still very much a terrain where there is a

:47:14.:47:19.

lot more dark than light. Not hopelessness but very much that the

:47:20.:47:24.

default position is that people believe another referendum will

:47:25.:47:29.

happen. Very interesting to hear your thoughts. Let's hear now from

:47:30.:47:38.

Declan Brennan. Thank you very much for talking to us. Are we looking at

:47:39.:47:42.

the creation of a new relationship between the UK and the Republic of

:47:43.:47:47.

Ireland, and by definition Northern Ireland having new relationships

:47:48.:47:51.

with Great Britain and the South as well? Firstly, I would like to

:47:52.:47:57.

express disappointment on the decision. I think it is a

:47:58.:48:03.

regrettable move and a retrograde step but we as the Republic respect

:48:04.:48:09.

the decision. I personally believe that the conversation around

:48:10.:48:16.

independence should be changed to our interdependence as two islands

:48:17.:48:21.

on the periphery of Europe. It is my view and that of my party that we

:48:22.:48:26.

first of all need to get into serious discussions. I think

:48:27.:48:29.

everybody talks about calm and what I would consider chaos. I prefer to

:48:30.:48:40.

say that it is incumbent on us to ensure stability, firstly in the

:48:41.:48:46.

political system, secondly in our economic, and most importantly in

:48:47.:48:51.

the legal framework. I listened very intently to what Theresa Villiers

:48:52.:48:54.

had to say and I think you should replay it. She said in the event of

:48:55.:49:01.

an exit, I think it is dawning of realism yet that this

:49:02.:49:06.

interdependence needs to be guaranteed both from a north and

:49:07.:49:10.

South perspective in terms of making sure that nobody on this island

:49:11.:49:15.

suffers and I do think that when one looks at the 80,000 instruments that

:49:16.:49:18.

are there within the make-up of the European Union, so many

:49:19.:49:19.

imponderables. An interesting piece written

:49:20.:49:26.

yesterday in the Guardian, in which he said that the English have placed

:49:27.:49:35.

a bomb under the peace process. His point was that it now calls into

:49:36.:49:39.

question so much that was nailed down in the 1998 Good Friday

:49:40.:49:42.

Agreement, that it is impossible to say now that relations between those

:49:43.:49:48.

who were signatories to that and the sovereign governments involved, will

:49:49.:49:51.

continue, and that nationalists in Northern Ireland may choose to take

:49:52.:49:54.

a different view about their position in the UK after Brexit. Do

:49:55.:50:01.

you think he was making a valid point question of unionists have

:50:02.:50:07.

dismissed it. But a lot of nationalists say he was capturing

:50:08.:50:10.

the zeitgeist will stop the impact that the EU has had both financially

:50:11.:50:21.

and in various parts of industry and the all Ireland economy, it is in

:50:22.:50:25.

serious difficulty. When you take that Britain has white 350 billion

:50:26.:50:33.

of its finance, which is equivalent to 15 years of their contribution to

:50:34.:50:37.

the EU, I think that this island and its incumbent on Theresa Villiers

:50:38.:50:44.

and the foreign affairs Minister to work out how best we can ensure that

:50:45.:50:51.

we can still walk with the EU -- work with the EU. From a southern

:50:52.:50:57.

viewpoint, we are committed to EU. Most of the parties in the South

:50:58.:50:58.

want to be able to facilitate oration ship with

:50:59.:51:14.

Northern Ireland. There are indications for students in the

:51:15.:51:19.

South what in colleges in the UK. I think people will begin to look at

:51:20.:51:24.

what who is suffering and where sovereignty should apply.

:51:25.:51:26.

Interesting to hear your thoughts. Thank you.

:51:27.:51:30.

We've heard what the two Executive parties plan to do

:51:31.:51:33.

what about the two opposition parties and Alliance?

:51:34.:51:37.

With me in the studio are Mike Nesbitt, Naomi Long

:51:38.:51:40.

and, from our Foyle studio, Colum Eastwood.

:51:41.:51:47.

Morning tea will. Thank you for joining us. Let's talk about this

:51:48.:51:54.

Nicola Sturgeon line. She says that Hollywood has to give legislative

:51:55.:52:00.

consent to the UK pulling out of the European Union. There was a

:52:01.:52:04.

suggestion from elsewhere that Stormont would have to do likewise.

:52:05.:52:07.

What is your reading of that situation? I think it is probably

:52:08.:52:12.

true that Stormont would have do last summer legislative consent

:52:13.:52:18.

motion at the minimum. What happened has created a new age of

:52:19.:52:22.

uncertainty, and that will last longer than two years. That could

:52:23.:52:26.

last between five and ten years before we reach a solid state. One

:52:27.:52:31.

certainty is that the people have spoken and they have told us what to

:52:32.:52:34.

do, so we will have do manage that. What we need is certainty. There are

:52:35.:52:41.

two audiences we had to listen to carefully in Northern Ireland. Young

:52:42.:52:44.

people, because a lot of them are very angry with this result, and

:52:45.:52:47.

also nationalists, because the point is well made that there are a number

:52:48.:52:53.

of nationalists who over recent years have been relaxed about their

:52:54.:52:58.

aspiration for United Ireland. We have seen that as an aspiration

:52:59.:53:01.

rather than something they wish to act upon to make a reality. They are

:53:02.:53:05.

angry and we need to listen to those voices. We also need to ask the

:53:06.:53:11.

First Minister, when she goes to the negotiations, is she going to

:53:12.:53:15.

reflect the fact that 56% of the people wanted to remain? The Prime

:53:16.:53:19.

Minister, representing all the people of the United Kingdom, lost

:53:20.:53:26.

the referendum and resigned. The First Minister, lost the referendum

:53:27.:53:30.

and celebrated. Naomi Long, do you believe that MLAs, MSP 's have a

:53:31.:53:37.

right to vote on this after the referendum result? They have a right

:53:38.:53:41.

to but it is about moral authority. Do you think they are right to block

:53:42.:53:45.

it? They have the right, because Arnott has primacy. You are at odds

:53:46.:53:50.

with what the Secretary of State has said? She has said that they have

:53:51.:53:57.

primacy. They could vote not to leave, but they would have no moral

:53:58.:54:00.

authority to do so, having held a referendum, having taken the view of

:54:01.:54:06.

the people for the United kingdom, which is to leave. You talk about

:54:07.:54:10.

Hollywood and you talk about the Assembly and what the have to do is

:54:11.:54:16.

a number of things. There may be an LCM in terms of how we get consent

:54:17.:54:19.

to leave. We also have the opportunity to make decisions over

:54:20.:54:25.

specific European union rules and laws which actually apply in

:54:26.:54:27.

Northern Ireland which would again each have to be voted on here.

:54:28.:54:32.

However, Parliament remains with primacy. It can take back power from

:54:33.:54:37.

Hollywood, it can take back power from the Assembly. Let's not kid

:54:38.:54:41.

ourselves. If it sets its face to do this, while Beacon put up a strong

:54:42.:54:45.

argument against, Parliament retains primacy. Is that how you see it? No,

:54:46.:54:51.

we have been studying this in the last couple of days. We don't think

:54:52.:54:55.

the cat macro leave campaign have thought this through. They did not

:54:56.:55:00.

think they would win. They are now having to consider this. The

:55:01.:55:06.

Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have the chance

:55:07.:55:09.

to say no. The European Union is stitched into the Good Friday

:55:10.:55:12.

Agreement and do our institutions and our laws. We will not be leaving

:55:13.:55:20.

the campaign -- we will not give them the chance to ride roughshod

:55:21.:55:23.

over the democratic process in Northern Ireland. They see it as the

:55:24.:55:29.

opposite. They would say you are endeavouring to ride roughshod over

:55:30.:55:37.

the referendum. I know what the blood Northern Ireland, the people

:55:38.:55:39.

of Scotland and what all young people said. But people in the UK

:55:40.:55:50.

said that they wanted to leave. I know that people in Northern Ireland

:55:51.:55:53.

voted to stay. We will do every thing in our power, and we need to

:55:54.:55:57.

get together to discuss this, we will do everything to stop us

:55:58.:55:59.

leaving bigger penal union. I know people here and in Scotland and the

:56:00.:56:07.

young people, that it will be good for us in the future. I'm not about

:56:08.:56:12.

to let the Tories decide our future. There is no dispute that those of us

:56:13.:56:16.

who were on the Remain site won the referendum in Northern Ireland, but

:56:17.:56:20.

it was a UK wide referendum. The UK Parliament still has primacy in

:56:21.:56:25.

these matters. We will want to... It is a non-binding referendum. They

:56:26.:56:28.

can make their own decision. It can be another government that make that

:56:29.:56:36.

decision. Just to be clear, you are saying that Parliament is suffering,

:56:37.:56:41.

and in future Parliament, either with this government or another

:56:42.:56:44.

government, could vote to overturn the referendum to have a second

:56:45.:56:48.

referendum. Is that what you are saying? In theory, but they would

:56:49.:56:52.

have no moral authority to do that unless the sort it from the people.

:56:53.:56:59.

By general election? That or a second referendum. They'll have to

:57:00.:57:04.

be a package of measures with Europe. The country may want to put

:57:05.:57:11.

that to the people and get their consent. We don't know, is the truth

:57:12.:57:15.

of this. We don't do what the Government will do. The Liberal

:57:16.:57:19.

Democrats say they will stand on a platform to overturn the decision.

:57:20.:57:23.

There already people coming out and saying they stand for this was the

:57:24.:57:30.

what will your MPs in West Mr and Stormont do? You cannot say that

:57:31.:57:36.

this is not binding. We said to the people, this is your chance to

:57:37.:57:39.

say... It is not a binding referendum, that is a fact. To go

:57:40.:57:43.

back to the people and say, it is not a binding referendum at this

:57:44.:57:49.

stage would be to undermine the process, and it is in a bad way

:57:50.:57:53.

already. There was a UK wide referendum. But what do you say to

:57:54.:58:02.

those who say they are committed to the people of Northern Ireland? The

:58:03.:58:07.

people here said they wanted to remain. We have to deal with that.

:58:08.:58:15.

What do you do? It is a bespoke solution, is that it? We have to

:58:16.:58:18.

understand why people wanted to remain and why people wanted to

:58:19.:58:21.

leave or stop we have do listen to the angry voices, nationalists and

:58:22.:58:25.

young people particularly. We do need a bit spoke package. Is that

:58:26.:58:33.

what we need? I have been saying since Friday morning that the point

:58:34.:58:38.

of this is the actual reality is very different from what some people

:58:39.:58:44.

have been saying. The idea that we can force a border on this island

:58:45.:58:47.

again is nonsense. We could not do it where -- when there were

:58:48.:58:54.

thousands of troops there, and we cannot do it now. Even David Cameron

:58:55.:58:59.

has said that it would not be possible to enforce a border here.

:59:00.:59:02.

That is why we need to think practically and positively about how

:59:03.:59:07.

we can remain in the EU and have all of the advantages that allows us to

:59:08.:59:10.

have. The border will be around Britain and not across the island.

:59:11.:59:13.

That is a reality that the DUP and others need to wake up to. That is

:59:14.:59:20.

not a decision that people in England were taking into account. I

:59:21.:59:24.

use an pennies to be some sort of Boulder pol? -- are you saying there

:59:25.:59:30.

needs to be some sort of border poll? I am an Irish nationalists and

:59:31.:59:36.

I believe in the relocation of our country. I want a border poll that

:59:37.:59:39.

we can win. This is not the time for that. This is a time for addressing

:59:40.:59:43.

the serious and grave concerns of people in my constituency and is the

:59:44.:59:50.

disease across the North, about us leaving the European Union. We are

:59:51.:59:55.

not about to let that wrecked our communities and businesses. We are

:59:56.:59:59.

looking at the potential break-up of the United Kingdom. We have got

:00:00.:00:03.

meltdown within the Tory party, meltdown within the Labour Party,

:00:04.:00:06.

course from nationalists for a border poll, on clear relationships

:00:07.:00:10.

within these islands. Talk about a hard border between Ireland and the

:00:11.:00:16.

rest of the UK. What are you saying to people today who support the

:00:17.:00:23.

Ulster Unionist Party, some of whom were leave voters, some of whom were

:00:24.:00:27.

remain voters, who are scratching their heads and wondering what is

:00:28.:00:32.

going on? The priority is beyond any of the local parties. The priority

:00:33.:00:36.

is the fact that the leaders of the only two parties capable of leading

:00:37.:00:41.

the country from Downing Street are lame ducks. That needs sorting out.

:00:42.:00:46.

I understand that we are about to lose out Shadow Secretary of State,

:00:47.:00:53.

a good man. I would say he will be gone before the day is out. I'm

:00:54.:00:57.

hearing from my colleagues that he is considering his position. We have

:00:58.:01:03.

two lame ducks leading the Conservative and Labour party. In

:01:04.:01:07.

terms of stability and certainty, that is the number one priority.

:01:08.:01:17.

That will take months to resolve. What do we do in the meantime? The

:01:18.:01:22.

Executive have do form an opinion on this, and we have to go forward with

:01:23.:01:26.

a single voice. At the moment, we have two first ministers. One was

:01:27.:01:36.

Remain one was Brexit. One is celebrating the result, the First

:01:37.:01:40.

Minister of Scotland is saying they will fight. Do we need and emergency

:01:41.:01:54.

Executive meeting? It is not for me to say, but I'm surprised they have

:01:55.:02:02.

not met already. What happens, surely at this stage the Executive

:02:03.:02:06.

should be together, trying to plan what the common purpose of any

:02:07.:02:08.

negotiating team that we had involved and that will be. I have to

:02:09.:02:13.

go back a bit, there are precedents for this. The kingdom of Denmark

:02:14.:02:17.

includes the Faroe Islands and Greenland, which are not members of

:02:18.:02:22.

the EU, but Denmark itself is. But there is a land border here. Of

:02:23.:02:28.

course. You don't need to tell me, I argued this all along but people

:02:29.:02:31.

dismissed it as nonsense. The idea that we won't have customs posts,

:02:32.:02:36.

I'm sorry, I drove from France to switch the land last week, there are

:02:37.:02:39.

customs posts. That is a reality of the situation. People were in denial

:02:40.:02:44.

about the chaos that would ensue. I have to say, I listened very

:02:45.:02:48.

carefully to Simon Hamilton this morning. He dismissed the volatility

:02:49.:02:51.

of the markets. Perhaps he should bear in mind that the pound may have

:02:52.:02:55.

bounced back against the euro because the euro is also now in

:02:56.:02:59.

trouble. It has not bounced back against the dollar the Canadian

:03:00.:03:03.

dollar or the yen. That is for businesses that are dealing with

:03:04.:03:07.

American companies as we sit here now.

:03:08.:03:12.

Do we need to see the Executive meeting as soon as possible to try

:03:13.:03:19.

and indicate, if nothing else, that it is trying to get to grips with

:03:20.:03:24.

the situation as far as Northern Ireland is concerned? We absolutely

:03:25.:03:28.

do but we also need to bring together all the parties in Northern

:03:29.:03:30.

Ireland that understand the devastating impact that a Brexit

:03:31.:03:35.

would have for us. I have spoken at a very senior level and they

:03:36.:03:38.

understand and they need to be our biggest advocates in these

:03:39.:03:42.

negotiations because they have a very strong hand to play. And we

:03:43.:03:46.

should not underestimate how strong our hand is as well. We will not

:03:47.:03:51.

make it easy for Northern Ireland to be dragged out of the European

:03:52.:03:52.

Union. Let's hear a few final thoughts

:03:53.:03:54.

from Felicity Huston We have heard a lot of people

:03:55.:04:02.

talking about the need to consider the wider picture and not rush into

:04:03.:04:06.

anything. What do you think needs to happen now? It could take years. I

:04:07.:04:14.

am shocked to find the executive does not have a meeting arranged for

:04:15.:04:19.

Monday morning. Whatever way the vote went, surely they were going to

:04:20.:04:25.

talk about it. I would like to see our Executive sitting down first

:04:26.:04:28.

thing tomorrow morning. There might not be a tremendous meeting of

:04:29.:04:33.

minds. Their departments will have papers prepared on this stuff and

:04:34.:04:36.

they need to sit down and talk about it and discuss whether it needs to

:04:37.:04:40.

go through the Assembly. They really should be getting on with it. You

:04:41.:04:46.

said earlier we are in uncharted waters, David. What do you make of

:04:47.:04:52.

what Nicola Sturgeon has said this morning on our Scottish sister

:04:53.:04:55.

programme that she thinks legislative consent is needed in

:04:56.:04:58.

Holyrood and she will not be recommending to her party members

:04:59.:05:03.

that they should give it? Is it a game-changing? I think it is. I

:05:04.:05:10.

think if a precedent is set there, others might follow. Politically, it

:05:11.:05:18.

is very difficult to see us giving consent to leave without some

:05:19.:05:22.

discussion in the Assembly. And what did you make of what Theresa

:05:23.:05:26.

Villiers had to say? Parliament is sovereign, she believes, but she

:05:27.:05:29.

does not think Parliament has the moral authority to have a second

:05:30.:05:33.

referendum or to say that the result of this referendum does not stand.

:05:34.:05:37.

Possibly not yet but we don't know where we are going to be in two

:05:38.:05:42.

years' time when we know the terms of the exit and the new agreement.

:05:43.:05:47.

There are lots of unknowns here. A final thought from you, Felicity? I

:05:48.:05:53.

am going to be the only person in the room was going to have an

:05:54.:05:56.

opportunity to have say on who our next Prime Minister is. Who will you

:05:57.:06:02.

be backing? Boris Johnson? Priti Patel. I think she is a wonderful

:06:03.:06:08.

woman. But I fear it will not be her.

:06:09.:06:10.

That's it from Sunday Politics after a momentous few days.

:06:11.:06:12.

Stormont Today is back as usual on BBC Two

:06:13.:06:15.

But for now, from all the team, bye-bye.

:06:16.:06:26.

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