18/11/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

And in Northern Ireland, it is four years since the 11-Plus was

abolished so why are thousands of children still sitting a transfer

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2379 seconds

test? We hear from the Education Hello and welcome to Sunday

politics in Northern Ireland. Another weekend of transfer tests

for children across the country, we ask the Education Minister if it is

failing when it is come to phasing out selection.

Jim Allister used his party's conference in Cookstown to launch

attacks on Sinn Fein and DUP, and joining us to discuss education and

more, Sir Ken Bloomfield with David Lambon and the former principal of

Ashfield Girls, Adeline Dinsmore. It is four years since the 11-Plus

was abolished but yesterday 7,000 pupils at one of the two transfer

tests. The number of children taking the unofficial Tests

increased this year and that is despite pressure from the Education

Minister and the Catholic Church to phase out selection. Is it time to

take stock and consider reintroducing a single Test as some

are suggesting? The Education Minister John O'Dowd is with us now.

Minister, good morning. Thank you for joining us. The Ulster

Unionists have suggested he should use one agreed test for a two year

period to buy yourself time to resolve the issue. Good idea?

That is a retrograde step. This debate did not start four years ago,

it started 50 years ago and on every occasion where a compromise

was offered, they have avoided dealing with the main issue. There

is no need for academic selection in this day. I do not know how you

verify the those figures of more figures taking the test this year

than previous years. The fat is I do not know where regulation comes

in. Speculation in the media that many children sit both sets of

Tests soap in my it point all of you, a selection test is

unnecessary. A 1% rise in the demand for Test in the same time

that the... Over the past four years, the figures have gone up 5%.

I do not know how close the figures are verified but I think one of

these tests is a necessary. It is not about the established --

establishing the ability of the child. A test at that age will not

establish the ability of any child. If we are serious about progress in

the young people through educational pathways into adulthood

and moving on, the way of doing that is through an increasing

education system. The majority of our post primary schools do that

but we never look at those children who are not sitting the tests and

their parents are as influential as anyone else and those schools that

do not set selective tests are as influential as those that do set

test. I do not know whether we will solve the issue of whether they are

a good or bad idea so let's not attempt to do that but let's try to

pick our way forward from the position we are in now which is a

difficult one. You wanted to get rid of selection and you actually

were not able to do that because like it or not, selection is

continuing and the question you must answer as minister for

education is where do we go from here? You do not like selection but

people like Sir Ken Bloomfield and those who are part of the grammar

school system want it to continue. We must answer the first question

before moving on to the second. you have moved on and scrapped it

before you have answered that. have to establish whether you need

academic selection for good education? Those leading the

economy is tell us we do not. Why do we continue it? Because a

minority of schools insist that they do it. And if I look at the

figures available to my department, many accepted that all the pupils

who applied to them, those that used tests. It is a clever

marketing device. All schools now teach to the same curriculum and

have to become tied to the framework will stop good education

to the young people is for the good of them. How do you stop the

grammar schools' continuing with selection despite your insistence

that it is not a good idea? They do not accept that. And how do you

deal with the parents to put their Were have to convince parents that

there is no need for selective systems. But 64 percentage of

children in p 7 by doing the tests this year. In may be that some kids

to both sets of exams but as I understand these figures are

official. Constantly the media tell me that children are sitting five

tests but if they are doing that they have to do the double exams

but let's concentrate on the main issue. Many children do not put

their children through the test. Many pupils do not sit a test and

there are many schools out there providing excellent education which

do not have tests. By that is not a problem, the problem is the

school's wedded to selection. ignore that section of our

education system with this debate, and we do not talk about education

in its totality of. Education is about this, not asking in charge at

the age of 11... It is about asking them how they are clever and then

putting them in school. What do you say to people like Sir Ken

Bloomfield to persuade him that he has got it wrong? With respect to

him, we will never agree with this. He has his bees and I have mine but

what we need to do is this is those parents who do have concerns about

the future of education about how they will receive a quality

education and we must convince those that a non-selective system

can work and indeed does with in many schools. Let's broaden the

debate. With as to discuss the situation further, Sir Ken

Bloomfield from the Association for Quality Education and the principal

of St Malachy's, David Lambon and the former principal of Ashfield

Girls, Adeline Dinsmore. Sir Ken Bloomfield, what do you say in

response to the Minister in that you do not need to be doing what

you're doing within that part of the community who believe in

selection. Get rid of it. I think I would say quite a lot of things in

response to what the Minister has said. This is not just about

education, this is about democracy. The origin of all this process

began back in 2000 when the Labour government of the day, as you know,

wanted to abolish academic selection forever. They then, at a

later stage, did an unusual thing and said that part of this bill

that would abolish academic selection forever would not go

forward if we had devolution. Why did they do that? Because they knew

very well that there was a very strong domestic feeling in Northern

Ireland about this issue. We then go forward to all the efforts that

have been made to assess the public opinion on this and there have been

several. One interestingly enough undertaken by the then Sinn Fein

Minister of Education, Martin McGuinness described at a time as

the biggest public opinion poll ever held in Northern Ireland by

government on any issue. It produced the outcome that there was

jollity about the 11-Plus but overall selection for the grammar

school and selection and that was echoed again in other opinion polls

undertaken by the BBC and the Belfast Telegraph and then you come

to the important point which is that people like fighting with

their feet because unlike the 11- Plus which it was expected all

children would have to go through, there are thousands of parents

choosing to bring children forward to be tested in this way and that

is an indication... In the early stages of this there was an

expression being bandied about, parental choice. Parental choice is

to have grammar schools as part of the next. I don't suggest for a

moment that the only good school in Northern Ireland is a grammar

school, of course not. I am in favour of diversity of schools. The

Minister and my wife for at an event at an integrated school and I

am a patron of the integrated schools movement because I believe

in variety of education. Wouldn't it be odd if the only sort of

school that we did not want to have is an academic Lee... You did not

need a selection for diversity of types of schools. That is a

misdemeanour. That does not make sense. How is it a voluntary

process? If a school set up a criterion of academic selection and

a parent wants to send a child to that school, how is it voluntary?

The parent must cross the barrier and the people. I know two schools

to set academic selection and did not have to use it because the

children who applied were so good. It's is voluntary, parents

voluntarily decide to go through the process or not. That is what it

means. But there is a barrier in their way. The debate that needs to

be produced... Let's hear from Adeline Dinsmore, you believe there

is no benefit. You taught in a non- selective secondary school.

non-selective schools for my entire career and very often it was a case

of picking up the pieces from children who had not passed the 11-

Plus, the self-esteem is in tatters. Over the years I have taught many

children who have gone on to be fully functioning members of

society and to achieve in all kinds of ways at the highest level. So

there... I agree with the Minister. We have policies and an entitlement

framework. Interestingly enough, we work on that and collaboration

between schools and funnily enough at 16, these children who were

failures at 11 are deemed quite adequate. And to go to

collaboration. J the current position though, he worked in a

sector where selection was not and cannot support a selective sector.

We have a minister... It -- and Kennet supports a selective sector.

We often talk about a fractured society on sectarian grounds and so

on but this argument I think is more to do with social class issues.

It is like Stephen Spender. My parents kept me from children who

were rough. There is a great element of that. So it is snobbery?

I think so but what we need is our political leaders to take the lead

and set out visionary policies and practices that will take us some

way different from where we are at the minute which is not a good

place. Where would you go from here? David Lambon? You have a

school with a very proud tradition and you select your pupils

academically, do you want to continue doing that or do you think

there needs to be changed? I think what needs to happen went there is

difficult it is you need to step back a little bit from eight and

unfortunately, the Minister has not done that. -- a little bit from it.

Parents are very stressed and unnoticed yesterday it was not so

much the children who are stressed, it is the mother's and father's act.

They were stressed about the situation and when we have got

ourselves to this point, we must take a look back and the Minister

mentioned international perspectives and I would much

rather have a debate about the future of schools and how our

schools are set up rather than a selection process. How do you

answer that charge from Adeline Dinsmore, a bit of snobbery about

but? The children want to go to schools because they perceive them

to be better and their parents want them to go there as well for the

same reasons which will give their children better opportunities at

the end of seven years? Is that the case with your school? I do not see

evidence of that in North Belfast. Out St Malachy's, we provide an

excellent platform for boys and for choice. As Sir Ken Bloomfield

mentioned, it is important to have a choice whether the Irish media or

non-selective, selective, I would like to see a vocational schooling

system set up where we have parity between things. So get rid of the

curriculum? The Minister mentioned in France that we have a college,

and a gymnasium in Germany. It is good to have children are being

given a place. All children are not the same, Minister, do you accept

that? Will you be teaching to a different curriculum? Let me answer

and declare with you. In terms of the curriculum offer, when we get

to sixth-form, we were focused on a more academic subjects. Three

languages, a range of Sciences. are you not in the entitlement

framework? Then you are teaching to the same curriculum. Hang on,

Minister. With respect, there is a common curriculum but David and

other principals can choose what part of the curriculum they can

focus on. And they have to be compliant. By it you can make

choices about what subject to a children have to study. The only

way is going to be compliant is if he has a choice of 27 subjects

after 16 and the only way to achieve that is within his own

school or work with the educational partners around him and that is

whether grammar school sector has failed miserably. They have sat on

an ivory tower. And now they have to work with educational partners.

For seven years, I worked in one of the best learning partnerships

which worked exclusively... Undoubtedly. And we are building

that in North Belfast. You are? me finish before you shout at me.

We are building a personalised curriculum and we are working

closely with all of our partners so we can get the best curriculum for

every child in the Learning Partnership. Sir Ken Bloomfield,

what do you make up what you have heard? The idea that our grammar

schools are packed with the social elite is a kind of nonsense. If the

Minister walks down the road to my old school and saw the people there

and the people at the concert earlier in the week and realised

what a wide spectrum they represents... I wrote a letter to

the Times because Michael Gove had made a daft remark and said "isn't

it a pity that so many of the post in politics are held by people from

independent schools?" and I write a simple answer to that, why have we

five British prime ministers in a road who came from a relatively

humble background and the only thing they all have in common was

that they had all come off on the grammar school. I a final word from

you, Adeline Dinsmore. I know that work is going on in North Belfast

to build those partnerships but I just think that it is time to step

back and put the needs of children first and institutions second.

minister, do you take anything away from this, chef and that might make

you think again about how you navigate your way through art of

the situation you are into the benefit of everybody? Of course I

listen to debates and take away information but my job now and

those who are opposed to back the next election is to convince

parents to the values of an academic not selective system.

you still need to convince David Lambon. Per it if you look at some

of the changes in the education system, make it from the ground

especially to changes in the schools.

Thank you. A thorn in the side of the Stormont Executive, that is

what Jim Allister aims to be anti- cabbage from north Antrim have a go

at his political enemies -- and the MLA from north Antrim. Our

correspondent went along. Jim Allister may be on his own in

Stormont but he is not without supporters. Almost 200 party

members came to take a stand with the TUV leader against the system

which has Martin McGuinness as Deputy First Minister. Ladies and

gentlemen, this province is stained with innocent blood. And those who

shared it and those who planned it -- shed it and those who endorsed

it well over us. It is that evil at the heart of government - and make

no mistake, there is the evil at the heart of the Stormont

government. The very personification of evil is

our joined First Minister. Allister also condemns what he

calls Sinn Fein hypocrisy over violence by dissident republicans.

The murder of David Black was straight out of the Provo textbook

on terrorism. It was murder they wrote. The TUV leader said it was

right that Martin McGuinness was not that David Black's funeral. If

I want to salute the Black family for having the strength and the

courage... For having the strength and the

carriage to cut through the hypocrisy and pretence by telling

Martin McGuinness to stay away from the funeral.

As for the DUP, it was branded foolish and easily seduced for

power and its leader Peter Robinson condemned as well. It is not just

enough, ladies and gentlemen, to condemn the murder, to visit the

widow and then take yourself off with Martin McGuinness to another

GAA match. APPLAUSE Che and Alastair call the

SDLP and Ulster Unionists doormats who should pull out of the

Executive. Jim Allister is not trying to chat

to friends, he is asking for building alliances with UKIP. His

Deputy Leader had a strong presence at conference.

For the week in 60 seconds, Stephen The death of a pregnant woman in

Galway led to calls for clarity on abortion. We have been working on a

guidance document that is sitting in an in-tray somewhere and I would

love to see it come are out. emerged that Ian Paisley Jr told

Peter Robinson it would be mad to appoint John Larkin as Attorney-

General. The argument over the boxing club

continues, the sports minister went toe-to-toe with our strongest

critics in the Assembly. When sectarianism raises its head,

we need to challenge it. So contract as of the failed

Ballymena firm Patten wanted a bail-out from the Executive but

were turned down. A golf resort could be in line for

a new club, the G8 group of world leaders and Sammy Wilson has shin

find on his mind but not as often as they think. If she thinks I wake

up in the morning and think "how can I get at Sinn Fein today", she

must think I live a very sad life. Sir Ken Bloomfield and David Lambon

are with me still. You are a former Governor for Northern Ireland in

the BBC and that controversy rumbles on. What have you made of

it? In a human organisation and humans make mistakes. They must

rectify them when they happen but we would keep BBC at the

cornerstone of our democracy and society. David Lambon, would you

understand people lose interest in aspect of the BBC? 2 and -- to a

degree, but it is such a wonderful independent organisation across the

world wide spectrum and I think that we should really value it and

not lose confidence because a lot of actions have been taken over the

last week which I think should let people grow in confidence. By it