19/02/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Coming up in Northern Ireland: Testing times in education - as

schools fight to keep selection, can the Catholic Church break the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1721 seconds

deadlock? We'll ask Bishop Donal Hello and welcome to Sunday

Politics in Northern Ireland. Cast your mind back to last week when

the Finance Minister told us welfare reform was about creating a

fairer system for taxpayers and getting people back to work. But

what about the changes to housing benefit? It is moving towards an

American situation. And it's more than 10 years since Martin

McGuinness announced plans to scrap the 11-plus, but academic selection

shows no sign of being consigned to the history books. What's the

solution? In a moment, I'll be asking our political guests of the

day for their answers. So, the time for fine words is over.

But as Catholic grammars continue to back selection, the Education

Minister, John O'Dowd, has said it's up to the Church to break the

deadlock. I'm joined by Bishop Donal McKeown. The minister has

thrown down the gauntlet. Where you pick it up? We all recognise, in

education, that the key thing here it is not selection. The key thing

is how do we create an education system for our young people, fit

for the 21st century? This system we have had is a result of another

era. Until the early seventies, those children who do not go to

grammar schools, had no qualifications. In Northern Ireland,

at 40% over our school leavers leave without GCSEs. We have to

find a way of educating our young people with excellence. It is a

mistake to focus on the idea of selection. But that is the focus.

10 years ago, the Education Minister has grabbed the 11-plus.

Do you have the authority to stop schools having the 11-plus? We are

looking to find a way for how every area can look after its children.

And what we come across his parents who say they want the best for

their children. But do you have the authority to Scott -- stop schools

under your control having a selection test? Decisions are made

by boards or governors. They ultimately are the ones who make

decisions about entrance criteria for schools. We have to recognise

the equilibrium between parents and principles, and trustees. They all

have a role to play. The Catholic Church is not a Stalinist

organisation. We are looking to find a way where our society does

not keep avoiding the real issue at how to look after 100% of our

children, and not just 40%. If the education minister it says we must

scrap selection, it would you bring that in it and scrap selection and

I have a merger? The trustees are at looking for a solution for North

Belfast. None of this court will be able to say they stand alone. --

none of this calls. The idea of faith and Catholicism it is that we

are responsible for one another and with one another for global out

comes. Therefore, no one can stand alone. There is a social justice

and moral issue here. But that is what is happening - parents and

trustees are protecting themselves. The trustees are clear - we are

moving away from a selection. Psychologists say you cannot

measure intelligence, in a way that makes you able to allocate two

separate sort of education. That is psychological bunkum. So you do

need to get rid of selection? course you do. Every other society

has done. We have got a mediocre system, precisely because of

academic selection. 40% do not have five GCSEs! Has the commission

failed in its role to convince the Catholic grammars sector to end

selection? We began this process five years ago. We cannot give

everybody... Leadership is about saying, wet your weak crude be

sustainable future for all of young people? -- where can we create. We

are taking a lot of risks to find an agreed way forward. But we all

need to look after everybody, and look out for everybody. Would be

better if tests were made illegal? That will not happen. We cannot

pretend it's something happened, things would be different. But why

a woman not happen? -- but why will it not happen? Because politicians

have argued that tests remained legal. We have to find ways of

reassuring parents, who want good education for their children, but

you do not have to have academic selection. That people need not be

afraid of change, because we were not experiment on your children -

we are looking to find a solid chance a mission to a better way.

We have to challenge those who are concerned only for themselves. --

we are looking to find a solution. Your party is opposed to scrapping

selection. Do you understand and take on board some of these things

the bishop has said? The bishop is a right when he said it legally,

nothing will change. Let us dispense MF - that testing does not

take place in it not selective schools. -- dispense a mirthful

stop -- take place in non selective schools. An example within the

Catholic sector, given to us as an example of a bilateral school,

which has moved away from the selective system - this tests

children very aggressively. It establishes a level of ability, on

where that child should be placed to get the best education. What has

happened within the Catholic sector is a reflection of what has

happened in society - parents still believe, and have that choice, to

make a choice of a school that uses academic assessment. Can we get a

better way of doing it? I believe we can. In discussions I have had,

I believe progress is being made. But that progress will not be made

at the expense of non-selective schools. We have to ensure that we

have a provision which has bought all the children. His there a

double standard in your party? Your party will never abolish selection,

will it? Let us look at the Bishop's record. A Sinn Fein

solution will fail. They did not have the power to prevent sectarian

exams getting started. We need to start from the fact that the

current way we do selection is inappropriate. No one believes

there are merits in subjecting children to exams. What pressure

you put in on the Catholic Church in particular? We need to try and

have a proper political debate. you have been debating this for 10

years? No, we haven't. How many times have children or -- have

people debated the future of education? And one manifesto, for

example, we made recommendations about the types of education. -- in

a word manifesto. There is an awful habit of looking south of the

border. We should not be thinking that way. We should be thinking

about what works here, which are good second racecourse and grammars.

Do we have the courage to build on that? -- good secondary schools. We

need educational excellence, not just academic. Bishop, or back to

the original point, all you do in the meantime? -- what will you do.

We have to face the need for change, and find ways forward as a society.

The danger is that decisions are taken by none education. I have a

passion for it. I told the 23 years. I come with a passion for education.

-- I taught for. We must look after our young people. We cannot just

focus on success of aim minority. We will remain in the doldrums and

the sweet educate all our young people. -- and educate.

Among the raft of welfare reforms heading towards us from Westminster

is a major cut to housing benefit. Welfare rights campaigners fear it

will lead to widespread social upheaval as people are forced to

move home. Yvette Shapiro has been to Derry, where tenants and

landlords are feeling the effects Eamonn Brown is unemployed and

lives alone in a one-bedroom flat in Derry's Bogside. His rent of

more than �80 a week is covered by housing benefit. Under the new

rules affecting private sector tenants aged 24-35, he'll be

reassed later this year, and his benefit will be more than halved.

Eamonn will have to move to a shared house. I am angry about it.

It is not just me, this affect everybody. I will have to live with

other people. The ball who pay taxes will be made homeless because

of these cuts. -- people. Berry has one of the most unemployed places

in Northern Ireland. Landlords have to get the best possible deal

themselves. It is a business, at the end of the day. If it is a

choice between taking reduced rent and no rent, I think I know what

decision the landlord will make. Again, it will vary from place to

place. In some places, they will be able to hold up. In other places,

the rent or be forced down, and somebody may have to move from one

part of the city to another. minister concedes that his

department and the housing executive, which is under his

control, has failed to build enough accommodation for single people,

young and old. A new housing strategy, due to be unveiled

shortly, will contain plans for remodelling existing properties and

building new ones. He won't be drawn on suggestions that landlords

may be able to get grants to convert properties into shared

houses for single people. The changes to housing benefit aren't

just affecting young single tenants. Welfare rights campaigners fear

there will be widespread social upheaval and hardship as a result

of the benefit cuts. It is really moving towards an American

situation, where children are moved from pillar to post, moving schools

within the school year. The difference between us and America

is housing benefit. It is the big difference. There is a danger of

being extremist and alarmist. There may be folk living in houses that

are too expensive for their situation. They may have to move to

other accommodation. Folk move all the time. Last year, more than half

a billion pounds was paid out in housing benefit in Northern Ireland,

an increase of nearly 11 % on the previous 12 months. Almost 280

million of that went to private landlords. It's estimated that the

latest benefit changes will affect around 6000 young people, losing on

average �29 per week. A discretionary payment fund,

operated by the housing executive, is to be doubled in April. Almost

3.5 million will be made available to help tenants who are facing cuts

in their housing benefit. But is there more that Stormont

politicians could do to soften the blow? They could introduce rent

control, they could ensure hardship payments, but they will be

available to everybody. And that those payments will continue.

bear a lot of young people who need housing. You will see people

His Romanes as saying that people need to get on their bikes? -- is

your minister. They need to address the concerns that exist. The

Minister is very clear - it is regrettable that while other

parties have responsibility for housing provision, they have

decided to build three bedroom provisions, as opposed to dealing

with the issue of the housing waiting list. Over half of that is

single parents. There is a legacy there that needs to be addressed.

It was all your fault, then? when you we could build enough

houses. -- if only we could. This is the tip of the iceberg. The

minister for social development is saying this is the type of merger

that will impact even worse than this region. What would you do

differently? We are about to have the acid test of this in the

assembly. I that they step up to the mark -- by the they step. If we

don't stand and a ground here, and have a welfare system for this

region, and we don't do it soon, we will effectively surrender or

control over support for the most marginalised in our society to the

British government. Would you support that? It is in Westminster

that gives us the money to run away services. There are many people,

working families, who listen to this programme, who have concern

about the income they get. The issue that needs to be addressed is

by way of getting a fair and balanced system.

Now for our regular look at the week in sixty seconds, this time in

the company of political correspondent, Gareth Gordon.

A good week for the construction industry as the Executive confirmed

almost �600 million is to be spent on roads and hospitals. But there

was disappointment for those needing answers about the La Mon

bombing. There is very little information. A lot of questions are

left unanswered. Glasgow Rangers faced their most

difficult opponent - the tax man. It was asked why MLAs couldn't be

officially allowed to use iPads in the Assembly, and we learnt

listening is also a problem for these men. I couldn't anything at

all with my left ear. I woke up in the morning. There was no illness

or accident associated with it. And in Derry, the new Peace Plaza

was opened on Valentine's Night - the perfect occasion for couples