21/09/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


21/09/2014

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Northern Ireland.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:10.:00:13.

for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

:00:14.:00:16.

the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:17.:00:54.

Scotland's decision to vote 'no' means more powers heading north

:00:55.:01:00.

But what about Home Rule for England?

:01:01.:01:07.

Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:08.:01:12.

us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

:01:13.:01:17.

got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to

:01:18.:01:25.

With Holyrood hoping for new powers in the wake

:01:26.:01:28.

of the Scottish No vote, is Stormont ready for increased devolution?

:01:29.:01:31.

We'll hear from the DUP and Sinn Fein.

:01:32.:01:34.

We'll hear from the DUP and But what is the next devolution step

:01:35.:01:46.

for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

:01:47.:01:49.

business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

:01:50.:01:54.

Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

:01:55.:01:59.

other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

:02:00.:02:05.

but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

:02:06.:02:08.

enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

:02:09.:02:12.

it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons

:02:13.:02:18.

of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

:02:19.:02:22.

the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

:02:23.:02:32.

has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

:02:33.:02:35.

they hoped would swing the vote, there was nothing about English-only

:02:36.:02:42.

votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

:02:43.:02:46.

justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

:02:47.:02:49.

House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. --

:02:50.:02:58.

cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David

:02:59.:03:00.

Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris

:03:01.:03:04.

Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr

:03:05.:03:08.

Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood

:03:09.:03:12.

and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he

:03:13.:03:22.

They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the

:03:23.:03:29.

Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is

:03:30.:03:37.

a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the

:03:38.:03:41.

ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He

:03:42.:03:45.

knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a

:03:46.:03:49.

draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they

:03:50.:03:53.

had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve

:03:54.:03:56.

these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they

:03:57.:04:04.

don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about

:04:05.:04:09.

is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at

:04:10.:04:13.

the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an

:04:14.:04:19.

overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern

:04:20.:04:21.

Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is

:04:22.:04:25.

whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he

:04:26.:04:30.

would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get

:04:31.:04:36.

either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause

:04:37.:04:40.

Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband

:04:41.:04:46.

this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why

:04:47.:04:49.

shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this

:04:50.:04:54.

morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and

:04:55.:05:00.

English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is

:05:01.:05:03.

in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his

:05:04.:05:08.

announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in

:05:09.:05:12.

Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if

:05:13.:05:15.

Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is

:05:16.:05:19.

handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural

:05:20.:05:23.

Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory

:05:24.:05:28.

backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be

:05:29.:05:31.

in which bodes for English laws. Even people in the Shadow Cabinet

:05:32.:05:35.

think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a

:05:36.:05:41.

partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on

:05:42.:05:44.

course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,

:05:45.:05:51.

and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the

:05:52.:05:54.

Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in

:05:55.:05:59.

sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this

:06:00.:06:03.

one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle

:06:04.:06:10.

to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband

:06:11.:06:13.

and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett

:06:14.:06:14.

Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,

:06:15.:06:17.

but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how

:06:18.:06:19.

the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,

:06:20.:06:22.

Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,

:06:23.:06:24.

because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher

:06:25.:06:26.

in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs

:06:27.:06:28.

aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the

:06:29.:06:30.

Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How

:06:31.:06:43.

can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just

:06:44.:06:47.

about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we

:06:48.:06:53.

are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers

:06:54.:06:56.

of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the

:06:57.:06:59.

wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we

:07:00.:07:03.

should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to

:07:04.:07:07.

the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett

:07:08.:07:10.

Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively

:07:11.:07:15.

prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance

:07:16.:07:19.

staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is

:07:20.:07:23.

more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland

:07:24.:07:26.

than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very

:07:27.:07:30.

poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That

:07:31.:07:34.

they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the

:07:35.:07:40.

Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand

:07:41.:07:45.

the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster

:07:46.:07:48.

politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to

:07:49.:07:53.

rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your

:07:54.:07:59.

leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of

:08:00.:08:03.

all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the

:08:04.:08:08.

Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was

:08:09.:08:11.

counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing

:08:12.:08:13.

voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep

:08:14.:08:18.

proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We

:08:19.:08:23.

said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes

:08:24.:08:27.

on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,

:08:28.:08:30.

pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of

:08:31.:08:34.

the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a

:08:35.:08:39.

Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double

:08:40.:08:44.

standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly

:08:45.:08:50.

unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is

:08:51.:08:56.

unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland

:08:57.:09:02.

gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London.

:09:03.:09:07.

Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There

:09:08.:09:09.

is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.

:09:10.:09:17.

Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year

:09:18.:09:22.

revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5

:09:23.:09:29.

billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer

:09:30.:09:33.

investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a

:09:34.:09:37.

more federal system, we would need to look at things like the

:09:38.:09:40.

allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted

:09:41.:09:44.

as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party

:09:45.:09:49.

architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so

:09:50.:09:54.

it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to

:09:55.:09:58.

the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs

:09:59.:10:01.

basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of

:10:02.:10:06.

Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his

:10:07.:10:10.

promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English

:10:11.:10:14.

votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he

:10:15.:10:18.

made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked

:10:19.:10:22.

on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots

:10:23.:10:28.

of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at

:10:29.:10:32.

this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find

:10:33.:10:37.

that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot

:10:38.:10:40.

just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for

:10:41.:10:45.

all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more

:10:46.:10:49.

devolution to Scotland, but let's deliver on promises to be English,

:10:50.:10:52.

and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's

:10:53.:10:56.

leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

:10:57.:10:59.

The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from

:11:00.:11:01.

the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex

:11:02.:11:03.

Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us

:11:04.:11:06.

another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand

:11:07.:11:08.

Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.

:11:09.:11:13.

In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,

:11:14.:11:15.

but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke

:11:16.:11:18.

The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for

:11:19.:11:40.

Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big

:11:41.:11:43.

screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories

:11:44.:11:47.

high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The

:11:48.:11:51.

other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is

:11:52.:11:56.

enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot

:11:57.:12:01.

papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000

:12:02.:12:13.

and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the

:12:14.:12:19.

first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like

:12:20.:12:22.

Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to

:12:23.:12:28.

sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you

:12:29.:12:38.

small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign

:12:39.:12:40.

applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went

:12:41.:12:47.

their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for

:12:48.:12:50.

independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of

:12:51.:12:55.

tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the

:12:56.:12:59.

refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy

:13:00.:13:05.

place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British

:13:06.:13:09.

establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this

:13:10.:13:14.

referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the

:13:15.:13:19.

establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.

:13:20.:13:24.

But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC

:13:25.:13:29.

called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence. The

:13:30.:13:35.

result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the

:13:36.:13:37.

official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen

:13:38.:13:44.

three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as

:13:45.:13:49.

the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south

:13:50.:13:53.

as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if

:13:54.:13:58.

it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote

:13:59.:14:00.

separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,

:14:01.:14:05.

spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern

:14:06.:14:09.

Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take

:14:10.:14:14.

place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.

:14:15.:14:19.

It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See

:14:20.:14:28.

you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be

:14:29.:14:31.

another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There

:14:32.:14:38.

was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,

:14:39.:14:43.

his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the

:14:44.:14:48.

Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,

:14:49.:14:56.

the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader

:14:57.:14:57.

gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as

:14:58.:15:08.

First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last

:15:09.:15:12.

night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if

:15:13.:15:16.

it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I

:15:17.:15:21.

certainly have thought about it, Andrew. But for most of the

:15:22.:15:24.

referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...

:15:25.:15:30.

Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally

:15:31.:15:34.

made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the

:15:35.:15:42.

decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you

:15:43.:15:52.

get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real

:15:53.:15:57.

possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion

:15:58.:16:01.

but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of

:16:02.:16:06.

the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are

:16:07.:16:09.

the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my

:16:10.:16:13.

judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the

:16:14.:16:18.

National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.

:16:19.:16:22.

In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day

:16:23.:16:26.

approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought

:16:27.:16:32.

for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real

:16:33.:16:40.

chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the

:16:41.:16:43.

decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,

:16:44.:16:49.

the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from

:16:50.:16:52.

Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the

:16:53.:16:56.

offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across

:16:57.:17:01.

to independence saw within that, a reason to say, well, we can get

:17:02.:17:04.

something anyway without the perceived risks that were being

:17:05.:17:12.

festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.

:17:13.:17:19.

You won Scotland's largest city. There is now the prospect of more

:17:20.:17:23.

power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is

:17:24.:17:30.

a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part

:17:31.:17:34.

of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire

:17:35.:17:38.

wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to

:17:39.:17:43.

be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see

:17:44.:17:47.

that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There

:17:48.:17:53.

are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the

:17:54.:17:56.

party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24

:17:57.:18:03.

years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many

:18:04.:18:06.

able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will

:18:07.:18:10.

do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take

:18:11.:18:18.

this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is

:18:19.:18:21.

developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that

:18:22.:18:25.

lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won

:18:26.:18:31.

end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days

:18:32.:18:35.

before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would

:18:36.:18:39.

change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There

:18:40.:18:46.

are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as

:18:47.:18:51.

a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will

:18:52.:18:56.

leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before

:18:57.:19:01.

Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I

:19:02.:19:04.

would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary

:19:05.:19:09.

campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving

:19:10.:19:13.

the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like

:19:14.:19:17.

of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon

:19:18.:19:20.

of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far,

:19:21.:19:27.

almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you,

:19:28.:19:38.

would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and

:19:39.:19:45.

pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him

:19:46.:19:49.

that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.

:19:50.:19:56.

The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was

:19:57.:20:00.

extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in

:20:01.:20:05.

the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair

:20:06.:20:14.

kick of the ball. In newspapers, I would settle for no editorial line

:20:15.:20:17.

and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish

:20:18.:20:21.

Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,

:20:22.:20:27.

certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in

:20:28.:20:37.

Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum

:20:38.:20:42.

wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that

:20:43.:20:48.

still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal

:20:49.:20:51.

view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK

:20:52.:20:57.

moved out of the European Union, for example, that would be the sort of

:20:58.:20:59.

circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and

:21:00.:21:03.

I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am

:21:04.:21:09.

just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally

:21:10.:21:13.

shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?

:21:14.:21:19.

You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that

:21:20.:21:22.

essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants

:21:23.:21:28.

to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that

:21:29.:21:31.

because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this

:21:32.:21:35.

and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are

:21:36.:21:39.

frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority

:21:40.:21:42.

in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an

:21:43.:21:47.

irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is

:21:48.:21:53.

movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something

:21:54.:21:57.

cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I

:21:58.:21:59.

think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It

:22:00.:22:06.

was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,

:22:07.:22:10.

effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and

:22:11.:22:16.

David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about

:22:17.:22:23.

the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that

:22:24.:22:30.

matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you

:22:31.:22:36.

advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or

:22:37.:22:41.

her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader

:22:42.:22:49.

brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very

:22:50.:22:53.

favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined

:22:54.:23:00.

since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in

:23:01.:23:03.

the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity

:23:04.:23:15.

for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would

:23:16.:23:19.

repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First

:23:20.:23:25.

Minister of Scotland. On Friday, coming back to the north-east of

:23:26.:23:29.

Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --

:23:30.:23:36.

substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my

:23:37.:23:39.

head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last

:23:40.:23:48.

line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not

:23:49.:23:55.

seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the

:23:56.:23:59.

Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?

:24:00.:24:04.

What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is

:24:05.:24:11.

dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose

:24:12.:24:14.

to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a

:24:15.:24:20.

constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line

:24:21.:24:22.

politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn't do

:24:23.:24:27.

it properly, I am sure they did. But I love it. You get distilled wisdom

:24:28.:24:33.

from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your

:24:34.:24:36.

feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to

:24:37.:24:39.

people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of

:24:40.:24:45.

Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes!

:24:46.:24:56.

Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the

:24:57.:25:04.

independence referendum is over, the next big electoral test is a general

:25:05.:25:08.

election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be

:25:09.:25:14.

talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men

:25:15.:25:18.

and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday

:25:19.:25:22.

Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the

:25:23.:25:27.

Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates

:25:28.:25:30.

say that the level of public spending during their last period of

:25:31.:25:34.

office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise

:25:35.:25:39.

taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On

:25:40.:25:43.

immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too

:25:44.:25:49.

high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates

:25:50.:25:52.

believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.

:25:53.:25:56.

Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the

:25:57.:26:02.

candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in

:26:03.:26:05.

five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change

:26:06.:26:11.

of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came

:26:12.:26:20.

in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.

:26:21.:26:24.

Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think

:26:25.:26:31.

I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't

:26:32.:26:34.

think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right. I

:26:35.:26:38.

think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many

:26:39.:26:43.

of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next

:26:44.:26:46.

generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your

:26:47.:26:49.

viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they

:26:50.:26:53.

can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the

:26:54.:26:57.

public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want

:26:58.:27:02.

to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they

:27:03.:27:04.

don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap

:27:05.:27:07.

Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party

:27:08.:27:12.

policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our

:27:13.:27:16.

policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over

:27:17.:27:20.

?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that

:27:21.:27:23.

enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk

:27:24.:27:31.

to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns

:27:32.:27:35.

about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,

:27:36.:27:39.

yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they

:27:40.:27:42.

take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural

:27:43.:27:46.

nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't

:27:47.:27:49.

think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's

:27:50.:27:56.

not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:27:57.:28:01.

described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:02.:28:05.

that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions

:28:06.:28:10.

that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don't

:28:11.:28:13.

think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the

:28:14.:28:18.

heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,

:28:19.:28:22.

radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy? It

:28:23.:28:26.

isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will

:28:27.:28:36.

have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general

:28:37.:28:40.

election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.

:28:41.:28:44.

I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They

:28:45.:28:50.

are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a

:28:51.:28:54.

small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's

:28:55.:28:58.

pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or

:28:59.:29:02.

wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour

:29:03.:29:06.

is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old

:29:07.:29:14.

or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great

:29:15.:29:18.

country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can

:29:19.:29:23.

achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are

:29:24.:29:27.

not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of

:29:28.:29:30.

their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.

:29:31.:29:34.

Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we

:29:35.:29:37.

are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you

:29:38.:29:41.

want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between

:29:42.:29:44.

Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next

:29:45.:29:54.

government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that

:29:55.:29:56.

the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them

:29:57.:30:00.

think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.

:30:01.:30:04.

Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly

:30:05.:30:10.

representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member

:30:11.:30:14.

of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here

:30:15.:30:16.

to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.

:30:17.:30:21.

Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it

:30:22.:30:26.

should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help

:30:27.:30:30.

create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories

:30:31.:30:35.

we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have

:30:36.:30:39.

trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees

:30:40.:30:44.

to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or

:30:45.:30:47.

bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the

:30:48.:30:51.

tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's

:30:52.:30:59.

turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional

:31:00.:31:03.

conversation where you have to discuss whether English people

:31:04.:31:05.

voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions

:31:06.:31:10.

and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,

:31:11.:31:13.

we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying

:31:14.:31:22.

rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is

:31:23.:31:27.

the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where

:31:28.:31:30.

people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers

:31:31.:31:33.

talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point

:31:34.:31:39.

you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to

:31:40.:31:44.

vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you

:31:45.:31:48.

see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is

:31:49.:31:53.

an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so

:31:54.:31:56.

simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British

:31:57.:31:59.

constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of

:32:00.:32:06.

Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the

:32:07.:32:11.

transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In

:32:12.:32:15.

Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote

:32:16.:32:18.

on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different

:32:19.:32:22.

votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not

:32:23.:32:26.

necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in

:32:27.:32:29.

Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I

:32:30.:32:34.

think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy

:32:35.:32:39.

in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,

:32:40.:32:43.

Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to

:32:44.:32:46.

now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue

:32:47.:32:50.

of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in

:32:51.:32:55.

bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.

:32:56.:32:59.

What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give

:33:00.:33:03.

you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a

:33:04.:33:08.

rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and

:33:09.:33:11.

there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has

:33:12.:33:18.

vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell

:33:19.:33:21.

us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme

:33:22.:33:26.

right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on

:33:27.:33:29.

tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.

:33:30.:33:33.

Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable

:33:34.:33:38.

future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending

:33:39.:33:42.

for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many

:33:43.:33:45.

of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said

:33:46.:33:51.

that in terms of looking at go -- local government spending playing

:33:52.:33:54.

out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has

:33:55.:33:58.

done which is having already deprived communities having money

:33:59.:34:00.

taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We

:34:01.:34:05.

accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?

:34:06.:34:12.

There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to

:34:13.:34:17.

do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:18.:34:23.

not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:24.:34:25.

government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which

:34:26.:34:32.

is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:33.:34:36.

Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:37.:34:41.

have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:42.:34:45.

you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:46.:34:49.

necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this

:34:50.:34:54.

debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I

:34:55.:34:57.

want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The

:34:58.:35:02.

unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:03.:35:06.

the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:07.:35:09.

different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against

:35:10.:35:12.

what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we

:35:13.:35:16.

shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the

:35:17.:35:19.

minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which

:35:20.:35:25.

would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five

:35:26.:35:29.

years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:30.:35:37.

in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I

:35:38.:35:43.

can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we

:35:44.:35:49.

have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if

:35:50.:35:51.

people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income

:35:52.:35:56.

tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in

:35:57.:36:00.

tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm

:36:01.:36:03.

not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:04.:36:08.

workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:09.:36:12.

payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:13.:36:17.

get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:18.:36:22.

proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:23.:36:26.

the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep? I

:36:27.:36:35.

cannot give you an exact figure. Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:36.:36:38.

you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:39.:36:41.

paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:42.:36:45.

this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60%

:36:46.:36:52.

and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I

:36:53.:36:55.

don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:56.:37:00.

don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out

:37:01.:37:05.

policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies

:37:06.:37:08.

before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their

:37:09.:37:11.

pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are

:37:12.:37:14.

also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as

:37:15.:37:19.

well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering,

:37:20.:37:23.

great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge

:37:24.:37:26.

number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.

:37:27.:37:29.

The status quo is not an option. And even joining me. Twice in three

:37:30.:37:33.

days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,

:37:34.:37:37.

not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:38.:37:39.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

:37:40.:37:41.

who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:42.:37:44.

we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing

:37:45.:37:49.

Labour as their conference starts First though,

:37:50.:37:52.

the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:37:53.:38:01.

in Northern Ireland. Well, the people

:38:02.:38:03.

of Scotland have had their say, but there's little doubt that

:38:04.:38:05.

the tail-end of the independence debate lit the touch paper on the

:38:06.:38:08.

explosive question of what's next. Could a potential revolution

:38:09.:38:11.

in devolution mean more fiscal powers for Northern Ireland and,

:38:12.:38:14.

if so, are we ready to take That's what I'll be asking

:38:15.:38:17.

my political guests of the day - Sammy Wilson from the DUP and

:38:18.:38:22.

Sinn Fein's Daithi McKay. As the political focus moves to

:38:23.:38:26.

the Labour Party conference in Manchester,

:38:27.:38:29.

we'll have the latest on Labour's proposals for constitutional reform

:38:30.:38:31.

and what it means for us. Plus, just how worried are Scots

:38:32.:38:35.

about the divisions Sadly, it will be a far more radical

:38:36.:38:37.

movement now. We didn't want that. And we'll hear live

:38:38.:38:54.

from our political correspondent Gareth Gordon in Glasgow later

:38:55.:38:56.

in the programme. So, Scotland voted No by a wide

:38:57.:39:03.

enough margin to lead the SNP leader, Alex Salmond, to stand down

:39:04.:39:06.

as First Minister and party leader. But that was far

:39:07.:39:11.

from an end to the matter. Already a major rift has seemingly

:39:12.:39:13.

opened up between the Conservative and Labour parties on devolving

:39:14.:39:16.

additional powers to Scotland. Mr Salmond has said No voters were

:39:17.:39:20.

?tricked? by a late vow of more devolved powers, and he accused

:39:21.:39:24.

the three main party leaders of ?reneging? on the pledge they made

:39:25.:39:26.

days before Thursday's referendum. Amidst all the uncertainty, what we

:39:27.:39:33.

can be sure is that months of debate about what future devolution in the

:39:34.:39:36.

UK will look like will now follow. With me this morning in our 'guest

:39:37.:39:40.

of the day' chairs to share their thoughts are the DUP's Sammy Wilson

:39:41.:39:44.

and Daithi McKay from Sinn Fein. Daithi McKay, you have been very

:39:45.:40:00.

clear that you want to see more powers devolved to Stormont as part

:40:01.:40:04.

of this constitutional discussion. Your critics say we can't even cope

:40:05.:40:09.

with the powers that we have, the last thing we need is more power. It

:40:10.:40:15.

is important to put this into context. The reason we are facing a

:40:16.:40:18.

lot of difficulty at the moment is that we don't have these powers. The

:40:19.:40:24.

Conservatives did budget for the next four years, and that is why we

:40:25.:40:28.

have the pressures we have on public services. They want is to dovetail

:40:29.:40:34.

into their agenda to do away with the welfare state. It is not about

:40:35.:40:40.

doing away with the welfare system, it is welfare reform, that is

:40:41.:40:47.

different. It is ideological from the Conservatives. The reason why we

:40:48.:40:55.

such a big Yes vote in Scotland is because of that conservative agenda.

:40:56.:40:59.

People here want to see local politicians take responsibility from

:41:00.:41:09.

for local issues. They put the south-east of London is the most

:41:10.:41:20.

important place. People want us to see -- people want to see us taking

:41:21.:41:29.

those decisions. Sinn Fein will even help us do the things we have

:41:30.:41:34.

promised already. We would be mad to devolve more powers to the Northern

:41:35.:41:37.

Ireland assembly, even if it was the right thing to do, which it is not.

:41:38.:41:43.

Why is it not fundamentally the right thing to do? Two reasons.

:41:44.:41:48.

Daithi McKay has said that by having more taxation powers delivered to

:41:49.:41:53.

Northern Ireland we could get out of having to do the welfare reform

:41:54.:42:00.

cuts. The fact of the matter is any taxation powers we have asked for in

:42:01.:42:04.

Northern Ireland have not been to increase taxes, it has been to

:42:05.:42:10.

decrease taxes. Pretty nice saying that he would love to have income

:42:11.:42:15.

tax devolved so that we could dip our hands deeper into peoples

:42:16.:42:18.

pockets and take more income tax of them? Is that the plan? In terms of

:42:19.:42:25.

taxation, in terms of economic growth, we always underperform.

:42:26.:42:32.

Because the taxation rates here are not set. We would like to see the

:42:33.:42:36.

abolition of the airport tax duty for example. That would all create

:42:37.:42:44.

jobs and create more tax revenues. Corporation tax, all these taxes are

:42:45.:42:50.

set for Britain. Wendy said he would we will see greater economic growth,

:42:51.:42:54.

the creation of more jobs, the better outcomes in terms of public

:42:55.:42:59.

services. You have the capacity to charge people for water. That is a

:43:00.:43:03.

way of generating income. Nobody is prepared to do that because it might

:43:04.:43:12.

be unpopular. That is exactly the point I am making. If Daithi McKay

:43:13.:43:18.

wants to see more tax powers devolved to Northern Ireland, let

:43:19.:43:23.

them be honest with people, which taxes would he put up to finance all

:43:24.:43:29.

the fantasy projects that Sinn Fein wish to have? Nobody has ever raised

:43:30.:43:35.

their hand to bid up attacks in Northern Ireland and this idea that

:43:36.:43:39.

every tax cut can be self financing is ludicrous. I think anybody who

:43:40.:43:46.

knows anything about taxation policy will know it is not true. Anybody he

:43:47.:43:57.

has responsibility for taxation matters should get about increasing

:43:58.:44:02.

them in some areas and decreasing them and others. The reason Sammy is

:44:03.:44:07.

not interested in this is because he is a Unionist, is because he wants

:44:08.:44:14.

to kowtow to the British government in advance of the West and

:44:15.:44:21.

selection. It is because I have some economic common sense.

:44:22.:44:26.

So, just how deep are the divisions uncovered

:44:27.:44:28.

There was minor trouble involving Yes and No supporters in Glasgow

:44:29.:44:32.

A loyalist element is said to have been involved.

:44:33.:44:34.

And now there are fears Scotland could be heading for problems

:44:35.:44:37.

around the nature and scale of devolution, perhaps more

:44:38.:44:39.

Our political correspondent Gareth Gordon sent this report

:44:40.:44:42.

We have one as a nation. The whole world watched Scottish people

:44:43.:45:03.

celebrate further freedom. If political passion is your thing, you

:45:04.:45:07.

have come to the right place. George Square in the heart of Glasgow, the

:45:08.:45:11.

city that voted to leave the union to the annoyance of summer. --

:45:12.:45:25.

some. Please were the scenes in the Square on Friday night. Rival

:45:26.:45:30.

crowds, a few arrests, but no serious trouble. The referendum

:45:31.:45:35.

itself may be over but it is pretty clear in Glasgow at least that the

:45:36.:45:39.

debate is just beginning and that many of the issues which have been

:45:40.:45:45.

opened up are still very raw. I do worry about the aftermath. Whether

:45:46.:45:53.

we will be able to find reconciliation between the two

:45:54.:45:56.

camps, if it will create long-term divisions. Hopefully last I got the

:45:57.:46:01.

steam out of the argument and people will settle down. We know that

:46:02.:46:07.

Scotland in Glasgow, things can be very polarised. The hopes of

:46:08.:46:19.

independence gone? It is just the beginning. Sadly, it will be a far

:46:20.:46:26.

more radical movement now. Believe me, that is what is going to happen.

:46:27.:46:33.

We didn't want that. I counted David lives in Edinburgh but is originally

:46:34.:46:37.

from Northern Ireland. He also says that the referendum opened up

:46:38.:46:43.

divisions. I voted No because fundamentally a don't agree with

:46:44.:46:47.

nationalism, I see it as an outdated concept not belonging to the

:46:48.:46:50.

century. On top of that, the economic arguments put forward were

:46:51.:46:56.

implausible, in my view. It has been very unsettling. The campaign for

:46:57.:47:02.

the most part has been good-natured, but it has gone on for such a long

:47:03.:47:06.

time and over the last month it became particularly acrimonious and

:47:07.:47:12.

divisive, so I'm glad it has come to an end. Ash performed to help people

:47:13.:47:30.

when it came to Northern Ireland deciding. The terms of the same, but

:47:31.:47:38.

the meaning behind those terms are very different. There have been a

:47:39.:47:44.

few unhelpful comments by certain people on the No side calling

:47:45.:47:54.

internationalist movement. Don't get me wrong, there are people who are

:47:55.:47:57.

very much nationalists in the movement, but it has been glossed

:47:58.:48:02.

over the amount of support that has been from people from Northern

:48:03.:48:08.

Ireland, Wales and England, that is a civic nationalism. It is about

:48:09.:48:16.

democracy, not about identity. It rejected independence, but Scotland

:48:17.:48:19.

and its counterparts in the rest of the UK have more decision still to

:48:20.:48:21.

make. Gareth Gordon joins me now

:48:22.:48:22.

from Glasgow. Senior politicians from

:48:23.:48:24.

across Scotland will gather in St Giles' Cathedral in Edinburgh

:48:25.:48:26.

this morning .The show of unity comes despite

:48:27.:48:28.

continuing disagreement over how the process of devolving more powers

:48:29.:48:30.

to Scotland should be handled. But as we saw in

:48:31.:48:39.

your report people are worried about This was probably the most tourist

:48:40.:48:54.

debate we have seen in these islands for decades. People were energised

:48:55.:49:00.

to get their names on the voting register and vote. If you 5% of the

:49:01.:49:05.

population went to vote. It was a major debate. You can't expect one

:49:06.:49:10.

of those polling stations close for that old to be put back in a box.

:49:11.:49:15.

When we go onto the streets with camera to talk about politics,

:49:16.:49:19.

people often shy away from us. Yesterday George Square and almost

:49:20.:49:25.

had to beat them. At 1.I had to say, for my cute! Everybody had something

:49:26.:49:36.

to say. -- at one stage. I think this debate will go on for a long

:49:37.:49:42.

time to come. The divisions have not gone away. You had people from both

:49:43.:49:47.

sides wanting to talk to you. It remains a divided city. Will it be

:49:48.:49:52.

able to park that division and move on. Glasgow, let's remember, on

:49:53.:50:01.

Thursday devoted to leave the UK, as did Don B. -- Dundee. Senior Labour

:50:02.:50:16.

politicians today have been warning that the vote cannot be ignored and

:50:17.:50:20.

the promises that were made cannot be put back in the box and forgotten

:50:21.:50:26.

about. The West of Scotland is divided along religious lines,

:50:27.:50:30.

sectarian lines. You a bit of that, night in George Square on Friday. It

:50:31.:50:36.

wasn't too bad, we don't want overstated, but those tensions have

:50:37.:50:43.

always been below the surface. People are not surprised that that

:50:44.:50:46.

happened, perhaps they are surprised it didn't happen before. They are

:50:47.:50:50.

worried that it might happen again. What has happened in Scotland as a

:50:51.:50:54.

catalyst for a much broader discussion about UK wide

:50:55.:50:58.

devolution. We will be talking about that later in the programme. To what

:50:59.:51:02.

extent are people there are aware of the fact that in Northern Ireland

:51:03.:51:06.

and people in Wales and across England are looking in on this

:51:07.:51:10.

debate and expecting to be a part of it? It has certainly been mentioned.

:51:11.:51:20.

All politics is local. The Scots are pretty obsessed by their own

:51:21.:51:25.

situation here, more so than what is happening in England and the rest of

:51:26.:51:29.

the UK. I think some of them are looking on quite suspiciously. Some

:51:30.:51:39.

people are sceptical about what is going on. Alex Salmond is claiming

:51:40.:51:43.

already that the voters here have been tricked. Whether that is true

:51:44.:51:48.

or not we will see in the coming days and weeks. The quiet majority,

:51:49.:51:55.

the people who voted to remain in the UK, not all of them want more

:51:56.:51:59.

powers for Scotland. I think the political establishment in Scotland

:52:00.:52:11.

will expect that to happen. Sammy Wilson, clearly people are still

:52:12.:52:18.

continuing to debate the issue of Scottish independence on the street

:52:19.:52:21.

even though the vote is over and there was a clear margin against it.

:52:22.:52:26.

That 45% of people who wanted independence and haven't got it will

:52:27.:52:30.

not go away. There is a future constitutional discussion to cool

:52:31.:52:35.

place -- to take place. How do you put the genie back in the box? Adam

:52:36.:52:42.

think you can. The debate got better as went on. We sought the nasty side

:52:43.:52:51.

of nationalism. Individual voters were afraid to put up notices.

:52:52.:52:55.

Businessmen being intimidated and told they would be looked at after

:52:56.:53:04.

the vote was over and so on. Relatively speaking, it was a pretty

:53:05.:53:13.

good democratic exchange. They won't minor issues. The nasty side of

:53:14.:53:18.

nationalism will leave a legacy. The single issue like that it is easy to

:53:19.:53:22.

motivate people, rather than with the general run of politics,

:53:23.:53:27.

especially when it is identified as party politics. If the debate on

:53:28.:53:32.

that particular issue is going to continue. I think it will be

:53:33.:53:40.

divisive. Even with the way in which Alex Salmond is trying to keep it

:53:41.:53:44.

going with pointing to UK politicians and saying they will

:53:45.:53:51.

renege on their promises. We haven't even had Westminster sitting against

:53:52.:53:54.

a hike and he said that? There is clear blue water between what the Ed

:53:55.:53:58.

saying and the Prime Minister is saying. Ed Miliband is taking the

:53:59.:54:03.

opportunity to have a poke at the Conservatives on this. There seems

:54:04.:54:08.

to be really a difference in the timing of getting things three.

:54:09.:54:14.

Those timings will be important. Daithi McKay, can you put the genie

:54:15.:54:21.

back in the box? What Sammy has outlined is that the scaremongering

:54:22.:54:24.

will continue even after the resultant Scotland. Scotland had a

:54:25.:54:28.

great democratic debate and I would love to see the same here, a mature

:54:29.:54:34.

debate with little to no scaremongering and people can

:54:35.:54:37.

empower themselves as opposed to leaving the politics to the

:54:38.:54:41.

politicians. Are you talking for a border poll? Yes, we would like to

:54:42.:54:45.

see one. How would that be anything other than another sideshow? It

:54:46.:54:52.

would lead to a public debate, as to where our future with life. How

:54:53.:54:59.

would that be helpful? We can't resolve welfare reform, things like

:55:00.:55:01.

flags, parades and the past, why would we want to start a right about

:55:02.:55:06.

a border poll? The reason why we can't resolve those issues is

:55:07.:55:10.

because there is British government interference in those issues. What

:55:11.:55:17.

we need to do is have that border poll so people can have that debate.

:55:18.:55:27.

No border poll as far as you are concerned? It is her diversionary

:55:28.:55:36.

tactic by Sinn Fein. Their incompetence in the Assembly is

:55:37.:55:40.

stripping them of everyday. A border poll would be a good way of

:55:41.:55:45.

diverting attention from their own incompetence. He should bear in mind

:55:46.:55:48.

that in recent polls even 25% of the room supporters say that they

:55:49.:55:50.

wouldn't support a united Ireland. Now, with a look at the rest

:55:51.:55:55.

of the political week in 60 seconds, Ian Paisley was buried in County

:55:56.:56:11.

Down after a private service at his home. In a newspaper interview his

:56:12.:56:15.

son described his father's critics as pygmies in his shadow. Sinn Fein

:56:16.:56:21.

protested as Drew Nelson became Deputy Chief Constable saying the

:56:22.:56:24.

selection process was flawed. Belfast councillor as well as Drew

:56:25.:56:27.

Nelson became Deputy Chief Constable saying the selection process was

:56:28.:56:29.

flawed. Belfast councillors were asked to take a. There is no

:56:30.:56:36.

appetite for its. The executive received a gift from an American of

:56:37.:56:43.

?58 million to promote education plans here. He wants to see peace

:56:44.:56:49.

and do that through his giving in order to bring about change. After

:56:50.:56:54.

Scotland said No, difference of opinion for more devolved powers for

:56:55.:56:58.

Stormont. Things have changed utterly and we need the British

:56:59.:57:04.

government to deliver. If you have those powers, you can't have

:57:05.:57:05.

deadlock in your executive. So, no sooner is the independence

:57:06.:57:09.

referendum over than the focus shifts to the next big electoral

:57:10.:57:12.

test, the General Election, which The Labour Party is first out of

:57:13.:57:14.

the blocks with its party conference Stephen Walker is there and when I

:57:15.:57:21.

caught up with him earlier I asked him about the mood among delegates

:57:22.:57:26.

after last week's Scottish vote. I think it is a mixture of delight

:57:27.:57:41.

and relief. People here are delighted that Scotland has voted to

:57:42.:57:44.

remain part of the UK, delighted the way that it went, but there is

:57:45.:57:52.

relief because a number of days back in April came out saying that the

:57:53.:57:56.

Yes were ahead. There were ahead. Scotland would the union. There is a

:57:57.:58:01.

fundamental understanding that many people in Scotland have voted for

:58:02.:58:06.

change. People have voted for more powers for Scotland and the need to

:58:07.:58:08.

get on the bits agenda revolving devolution. There is an

:58:09.:58:13.

understanding here is that there is a lot of work still to be done. UK

:58:14.:58:19.

politics has become consumed with the future of devolution. Will it

:58:20.:58:25.

dominate the agenda this week? It will. The whole issue of devolution

:58:26.:58:29.

and constitutional change, well it is something that interests

:58:30.:58:34.

journalists and academics, it is not often interest normal people. It is

:58:35.:58:38.

now something that is on the front page of the newspapers. This issue

:58:39.:58:42.

of devolution will dominate this conference. People will be talking

:58:43.:58:47.

about what kind of powers we expect to see in Wales, Northern Ireland

:58:48.:58:51.

and Scotland. There is a fundamental difference between Labour and the

:58:52.:58:55.

Conservatives. David Cameron give a press conference in Downing Street

:58:56.:58:58.

last Friday morning when he talked about linking changes in Scotland to

:58:59.:59:04.

what Scottish MPs can do at Westminster. Labour have a

:59:05.:59:08.

completely different position, they want change to go ahead and not

:59:09.:59:12.

linked to this whole issue of Scottish MPs at Westminster. Labour

:59:13.:59:16.

want this constitutional convention. There is a fundamental difference

:59:17.:59:19.

between Labour and the Conservatives. The SNP are accusing

:59:20.:59:23.

the Westminster parties of reneging on the deal. The whole issue of

:59:24.:59:29.

devolution is not on the front page. In the meantime, we'll Northern

:59:30.:59:32.

Ireland featured to any great extent in the conference agenda? I think it

:59:33.:59:37.

will. Because of a direct result of what has been happening in Scotland.

:59:38.:59:43.

Northern Ireland is on the agenda every year but because of what has

:59:44.:59:46.

happened there is a greater impetus. Tomorrow we will have a

:59:47.:59:51.

speech from Ivan Lewis, the Shadow Secretary of State, and he will

:59:52.:59:55.

mention Scotland. Then this whole ongoing debate about what kind of

:59:56.:59:59.

powers should be devolved to places like Belfast, Edinburgh and Wales.

:00:00.:00:05.

Because of what has happened in Scotland, the whole issue of

:00:06.:00:12.

devolution will be on the agenda. Sammy Wilson, if we have a

:00:13.:00:15.

constitutional debate about devolution, does that mean that you

:00:16.:00:21.

could go back as an MP who cannot discuss certain issues on the floor

:00:22.:00:24.

of the House of Commons? I think it is a possibility. I have some

:00:25.:00:29.

sympathy with the argument that where there is legislation which

:00:30.:00:32.

affects only England, why should I as someone has already got those

:00:33.:00:36.

powers devolved to Northern Ireland have a say in its? It is not always

:00:37.:00:42.

clear-cut, of course. Let's take HS2, the real three England. That

:00:43.:00:47.

has implications for the whole of the United Kingdom, shoes should I

:00:48.:00:55.

have a say on that? Is a matter for our MPs, we don't take our seats.

:00:56.:00:58.

Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined

:00:59.:01:09.

by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.

:01:10.:01:13.

I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

:01:14.:01:18.

In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally

:01:19.:01:20.

the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.

:01:21.:01:23.

He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve

:01:24.:01:26.

Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish

:01:27.:01:38.

votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,

:01:39.:01:40.

why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament

:01:41.:01:46.

in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I

:01:47.:01:50.

certainly don't agree with that. I campaign for powers to be given to

:01:51.:01:54.

the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?

:01:55.:01:57.

Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to

:01:58.:02:02.

Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a

:02:03.:02:09.

Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the

:02:10.:02:13.

alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and

:02:14.:02:18.

everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was

:02:19.:02:24.

my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year

:02:25.:02:30.

plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to

:02:31.:02:34.

turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if

:02:35.:02:37.

that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can

:02:38.:02:43.

get reform in a more federal structure, and even English

:02:44.:02:47.

parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the

:02:48.:02:50.

Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite

:02:51.:02:55.

radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in

:02:56.:02:59.

the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's

:03:00.:03:06.

assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they

:03:07.:03:08.

remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but

:03:09.:03:14.

don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their

:03:15.:03:19.

favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come

:03:20.:03:22.

up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page

:03:23.:03:28.

of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the

:03:29.:03:31.

time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you

:03:32.:03:35.

want real protection in England, vote Conservative, and if you want

:03:36.:03:39.

Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is

:03:40.:03:43.

scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the

:03:44.:03:47.

constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same

:03:48.:03:51.

with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a

:03:52.:03:55.

fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years

:03:56.:03:59.

ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't

:04:00.:04:03.

mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are

:04:04.:04:09.

promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout

:04:10.:04:14.

of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The

:04:15.:04:19.

turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get

:04:20.:04:22.

people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation

:04:23.:04:26.

in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what

:04:27.:04:29.

you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they

:04:30.:04:34.

were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is

:04:35.:04:37.

about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in

:04:38.:04:40.

the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and

:04:41.:04:44.

you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,

:04:45.:04:47.

but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of

:04:48.:04:51.

power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.

:04:52.:04:54.

They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with

:04:55.:05:00.

what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up

:05:01.:05:04.

with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of

:05:05.:05:08.

city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a

:05:09.:05:12.

democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of

:05:13.:05:15.

Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of

:05:16.:05:20.

democratic link with the people? I live in whole, and it stops on the

:05:21.:05:25.

boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from

:05:26.:05:30.

Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,

:05:31.:05:34.

and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city

:05:35.:05:38.

regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal

:05:39.:05:41.

structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with

:05:42.:05:44.

Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I

:05:45.:05:49.

believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options

:05:50.:05:53.

in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do

:05:54.:05:57.

in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will

:05:58.:06:00.

happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.

:06:01.:06:04.

You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,

:06:05.:06:08.

not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a

:06:09.:06:12.

separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English

:06:13.:06:18.

if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of

:06:19.:06:22.

Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put

:06:23.:06:26.

the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking

:06:27.:06:30.

about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do

:06:31.:06:33.

with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.

:06:34.:06:39.

Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.

:06:40.:06:42.

Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether

:06:43.:06:46.

it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the

:06:47.:06:50.

Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign

:06:51.:06:57.

lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to

:06:58.:07:01.

something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost

:07:02.:07:05.

Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to

:07:06.:07:09.

what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its

:07:10.:07:13.

different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about

:07:14.:07:18.

decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been

:07:19.:07:26.

thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is

:07:27.:07:30.

not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember

:07:31.:07:34.

covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping

:07:35.:07:39.

speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it

:07:40.:07:42.

was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not

:07:43.:07:45.

independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,

:07:46.:07:50.

an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that

:07:51.:07:54.

Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.

:07:55.:08:03.

In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on

:08:04.:08:10.

with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for

:08:11.:08:15.

30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I

:08:16.:08:18.

support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and

:08:19.:08:21.

make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources

:08:22.:08:26.

and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant

:08:27.:08:32.

today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in

:08:33.:08:36.

Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I

:08:37.:08:44.

can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What

:08:45.:08:51.

do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering

:08:52.:08:58.

about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,

:08:59.:09:01.

and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he

:09:02.:09:08.

started off on the minimum wage. You are trying to deal with those left

:09:09.:09:12.

behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National

:09:13.:09:16.

Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved. If

:09:17.:09:19.

you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you

:09:20.:09:23.

haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the

:09:24.:09:29.

priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that

:09:30.:09:32.

you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or

:09:33.:09:35.

paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives

:09:36.:09:41.

?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary

:09:42.:09:46.

people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the

:09:47.:09:49.

north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more

:09:50.:09:52.

to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably

:09:53.:09:57.

hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission

:09:58.:10:01.

coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I

:10:02.:10:06.

say, I know what we do, housing, health, the people. That is our

:10:07.:10:10.

language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I

:10:11.:10:15.

think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the

:10:16.:10:19.

same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they

:10:20.:10:23.

think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks

:10:24.:10:28.

like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch

:10:29.:10:33.

started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the

:10:34.:10:39.

sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how

:10:40.:10:42.

long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.

:10:43.:10:48.

-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and

:10:49.:10:52.

people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to

:10:53.:10:55.

the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is

:10:56.:11:02.

20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear

:11:03.:11:07.

anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it

:11:08.:11:12.

sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion

:11:13.:11:17.

of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why

:11:18.:11:24.

did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,

:11:25.:11:27.

but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a

:11:28.:11:34.

hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an

:11:35.:11:38.

awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.

:11:39.:11:42.

What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution

:11:43.:11:46.

and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public

:11:47.:11:50.

sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record

:11:51.:11:53.

straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the

:11:54.:11:57.

future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to

:11:58.:12:00.

change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.

:12:01.:12:07.

Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates, you

:12:08.:12:11.

were watching on the big screen, when it came up that their favourite

:12:12.:12:15.

to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That

:12:16.:12:26.

is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not

:12:27.:12:28.

strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at

:12:29.:12:45.

a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,

:12:46.:12:50.

I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you

:12:51.:12:56.

back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for

:12:57.:13:00.

today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.

:13:01.:13:02.

my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily

:13:03.:13:07.

11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by

:13:08.:13:12.

We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for

:13:13.:13:17.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:18.:13:24.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS