Browse content similar to 21/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for | :00:17. | :00:54. | |
Scotland's decision to vote 'no' means more powers heading north | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
But what about Home Rule for England? | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to | :01:18. | :01:25. | |
With Holyrood hoping for new powers in the wake | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
of the Scottish No vote, is Stormont ready for increased devolution? | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
We'll hear from the DUP and Sinn Fein. | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
We'll hear from the DUP and But what is the next devolution step | :01:35. | :01:46. | |
for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived, | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly, | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It | :02:23. | :02:32. | |
has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
they hoped would swing the vote, there was nothing about English-only | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -- | :02:50. | :02:58. | |
cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern | :04:20. | :04:21. | |
Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
in which bodes for English laws. Even people in the Shadow Cabinet | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs, | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett | :06:14. | :06:14. | |
Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet, | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland, | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial, | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How | :06:31. | :06:43. | |
can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto, | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London. | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There | :09:08. | :09:09. | |
is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount. | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
more federal system, we would need to look at things like the | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
devolution to Scotland, but let's deliver on promises to be English, | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
leave it there. Thank you for joining us. | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career. | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond, | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for | :11:19. | :11:40. | |
Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000 | :12:02. | :12:13. | |
and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you | :12:29. | :12:38. | |
small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could. | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence. The | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland. | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See | :14:20. | :14:28. | |
you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist, | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So, | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader | :14:57. | :14:57. | |
gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as | :14:58. | :15:08. | |
First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
certainly have thought about it, Andrew. But for most of the | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was... | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you | :15:43. | :15:52. | |
get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership. | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering, | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
to independence saw within that, a reason to say, well, we can get | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
something anyway without the perceived risks that were being | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream. | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
You won Scotland's largest city. There is now the prospect of more | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24 | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far, | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you, | :19:28. | :19:38. | |
would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged. | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair | :20:06. | :20:14. | |
kick of the ball. In newspapers, I would settle for no editorial line | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets, | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in | :20:28. | :20:37. | |
Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
moved out of the European Union, for example, that would be the sort of | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow? | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked, | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader | :22:42. | :22:49. | |
brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity | :23:04. | :23:15. | |
for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
Minister of Scotland. On Friday, coming back to the north-east of | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud -- | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons? | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn't do | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
it properly, I am sure they did. But I love it. You get distilled wisdom | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes! | :24:46. | :24:56. | |
Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
independence referendum is over, the next big electoral test is a general | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
say that the level of public spending during their last period of | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough. | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came | :26:12. | :26:20. | |
in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview. | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right. I | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they | :27:03. | :27:04. | |
don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk | :27:24. | :27:31. | |
to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration, | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don't | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out, | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy? It | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will | :28:27. | :28:36. | |
have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them. | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off. | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next | :29:45. | :29:54. | |
government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members. | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
conversation where you have to discuss whether English people | :31:04. | :31:05. | |
voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective, | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying | :31:14. | :31:22. | |
rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say, | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland. | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course. | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
that in terms of looking at go -- local government spending playing | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
done which is having already deprived communities having money | :33:59. | :34:00. | |
taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well? | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend -- | :34:24. | :34:25. | |
government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair Labour politician? We | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't, | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if | :35:50. | :35:51. | |
people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep? I | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
cannot give you an exact figure. Why don't you give me an exact figure if | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60% | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering, | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it. | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
The status quo is not an option. And even joining me. Twice in three | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that, | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're | :37:38. | :37:39. | |
watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes, | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
Labour as their conference starts First though, | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics | :37:53. | :38:01. | |
in Northern Ireland. Well, the people | :38:02. | :38:03. | |
of Scotland have had their say, but there's little doubt that | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
the tail-end of the independence debate lit the touch paper on the | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
explosive question of what's next. Could a potential revolution | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
in devolution mean more fiscal powers for Northern Ireland and, | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
if so, are we ready to take That's what I'll be asking | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
my political guests of the day - Sammy Wilson from the DUP and | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
Sinn Fein's Daithi McKay. As the political focus moves to | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
the Labour Party conference in Manchester, | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
we'll have the latest on Labour's proposals for constitutional reform | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
and what it means for us. Plus, just how worried are Scots | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
about the divisions Sadly, it will be a far more radical | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
movement now. We didn't want that. And we'll hear live | :38:38. | :38:54. | |
from our political correspondent Gareth Gordon in Glasgow later | :38:55. | :38:56. | |
in the programme. So, Scotland voted No by a wide | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
enough margin to lead the SNP leader, Alex Salmond, to stand down | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
as First Minister and party leader. But that was far | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
from an end to the matter. Already a major rift has seemingly | :39:12. | :39:13. | |
opened up between the Conservative and Labour parties on devolving | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
additional powers to Scotland. Mr Salmond has said No voters were | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
?tricked? by a late vow of more devolved powers, and he accused | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
the three main party leaders of ?reneging? on the pledge they made | :39:25. | :39:26. | |
days before Thursday's referendum. Amidst all the uncertainty, what we | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
can be sure is that months of debate about what future devolution in the | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
UK will look like will now follow. With me this morning in our 'guest | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
of the day' chairs to share their thoughts are the DUP's Sammy Wilson | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
and Daithi McKay from Sinn Fein. Daithi McKay, you have been very | :39:45. | :40:00. | |
clear that you want to see more powers devolved to Stormont as part | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
of this constitutional discussion. Your critics say we can't even cope | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
with the powers that we have, the last thing we need is more power. It | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
is important to put this into context. The reason we are facing a | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
lot of difficulty at the moment is that we don't have these powers. The | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
Conservatives did budget for the next four years, and that is why we | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
have the pressures we have on public services. They want is to dovetail | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
into their agenda to do away with the welfare state. It is not about | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
doing away with the welfare system, it is welfare reform, that is | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
different. It is ideological from the Conservatives. The reason why we | :40:48. | :40:55. | |
such a big Yes vote in Scotland is because of that conservative agenda. | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
People here want to see local politicians take responsibility from | :41:00. | :41:09. | |
for local issues. They put the south-east of London is the most | :41:10. | :41:20. | |
important place. People want us to see -- people want to see us taking | :41:21. | :41:29. | |
those decisions. Sinn Fein will even help us do the things we have | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
promised already. We would be mad to devolve more powers to the Northern | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
Ireland assembly, even if it was the right thing to do, which it is not. | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
Why is it not fundamentally the right thing to do? Two reasons. | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
Daithi McKay has said that by having more taxation powers delivered to | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
Northern Ireland we could get out of having to do the welfare reform | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
cuts. The fact of the matter is any taxation powers we have asked for in | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
Northern Ireland have not been to increase taxes, it has been to | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
decrease taxes. Pretty nice saying that he would love to have income | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
tax devolved so that we could dip our hands deeper into peoples | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
pockets and take more income tax of them? Is that the plan? In terms of | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
taxation, in terms of economic growth, we always underperform. | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
Because the taxation rates here are not set. We would like to see the | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
abolition of the airport tax duty for example. That would all create | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
jobs and create more tax revenues. Corporation tax, all these taxes are | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
set for Britain. Wendy said he would we will see greater economic growth, | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
the creation of more jobs, the better outcomes in terms of public | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
services. You have the capacity to charge people for water. That is a | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
way of generating income. Nobody is prepared to do that because it might | :43:04. | :43:12. | |
be unpopular. That is exactly the point I am making. If Daithi McKay | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
wants to see more tax powers devolved to Northern Ireland, let | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
them be honest with people, which taxes would he put up to finance all | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
the fantasy projects that Sinn Fein wish to have? Nobody has ever raised | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
their hand to bid up attacks in Northern Ireland and this idea that | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
every tax cut can be self financing is ludicrous. I think anybody who | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
knows anything about taxation policy will know it is not true. Anybody he | :43:47. | :43:57. | |
has responsibility for taxation matters should get about increasing | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
them in some areas and decreasing them and others. The reason Sammy is | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
not interested in this is because he is a Unionist, is because he wants | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
to kowtow to the British government in advance of the West and | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
selection. It is because I have some economic common sense. | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
So, just how deep are the divisions uncovered | :44:27. | :44:28. | |
There was minor trouble involving Yes and No supporters in Glasgow | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
A loyalist element is said to have been involved. | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
And now there are fears Scotland could be heading for problems | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
around the nature and scale of devolution, perhaps more | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
Our political correspondent Gareth Gordon sent this report | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
We have one as a nation. The whole world watched Scottish people | :44:43. | :45:03. | |
celebrate further freedom. If political passion is your thing, you | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
have come to the right place. George Square in the heart of Glasgow, the | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
city that voted to leave the union to the annoyance of summer. -- | :45:12. | :45:25. | |
some. Please were the scenes in the Square on Friday night. Rival | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
crowds, a few arrests, but no serious trouble. The referendum | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
itself may be over but it is pretty clear in Glasgow at least that the | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
debate is just beginning and that many of the issues which have been | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
opened up are still very raw. I do worry about the aftermath. Whether | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
we will be able to find reconciliation between the two | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
camps, if it will create long-term divisions. Hopefully last I got the | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
steam out of the argument and people will settle down. We know that | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
Scotland in Glasgow, things can be very polarised. The hopes of | :46:08. | :46:19. | |
independence gone? It is just the beginning. Sadly, it will be a far | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
more radical movement now. Believe me, that is what is going to happen. | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
We didn't want that. I counted David lives in Edinburgh but is originally | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
from Northern Ireland. He also says that the referendum opened up | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
divisions. I voted No because fundamentally a don't agree with | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
nationalism, I see it as an outdated concept not belonging to the | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
century. On top of that, the economic arguments put forward were | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
implausible, in my view. It has been very unsettling. The campaign for | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
the most part has been good-natured, but it has gone on for such a long | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
time and over the last month it became particularly acrimonious and | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
divisive, so I'm glad it has come to an end. Ash performed to help people | :47:13. | :47:30. | |
when it came to Northern Ireland deciding. The terms of the same, but | :47:31. | :47:38. | |
the meaning behind those terms are very different. There have been a | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
few unhelpful comments by certain people on the No side calling | :47:45. | :47:54. | |
internationalist movement. Don't get me wrong, there are people who are | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
very much nationalists in the movement, but it has been glossed | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
over the amount of support that has been from people from Northern | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
Ireland, Wales and England, that is a civic nationalism. It is about | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
democracy, not about identity. It rejected independence, but Scotland | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
and its counterparts in the rest of the UK have more decision still to | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
make. Gareth Gordon joins me now | :48:22. | :48:22. | |
from Glasgow. Senior politicians from | :48:23. | :48:24. | |
across Scotland will gather in St Giles' Cathedral in Edinburgh | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
this morning .The show of unity comes despite | :48:27. | :48:28. | |
continuing disagreement over how the process of devolving more powers | :48:29. | :48:30. | |
to Scotland should be handled. But as we saw in | :48:31. | :48:39. | |
your report people are worried about This was probably the most tourist | :48:40. | :48:54. | |
debate we have seen in these islands for decades. People were energised | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
to get their names on the voting register and vote. If you 5% of the | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
population went to vote. It was a major debate. You can't expect one | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
of those polling stations close for that old to be put back in a box. | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
When we go onto the streets with camera to talk about politics, | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
people often shy away from us. Yesterday George Square and almost | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
had to beat them. At 1.I had to say, for my cute! Everybody had something | :49:26. | :49:36. | |
to say. -- at one stage. I think this debate will go on for a long | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
time to come. The divisions have not gone away. You had people from both | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
sides wanting to talk to you. It remains a divided city. Will it be | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
able to park that division and move on. Glasgow, let's remember, on | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
Thursday devoted to leave the UK, as did Don B. -- Dundee. Senior Labour | :50:02. | :50:16. | |
politicians today have been warning that the vote cannot be ignored and | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
the promises that were made cannot be put back in the box and forgotten | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
about. The West of Scotland is divided along religious lines, | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
sectarian lines. You a bit of that, night in George Square on Friday. It | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
wasn't too bad, we don't want overstated, but those tensions have | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
always been below the surface. People are not surprised that that | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
happened, perhaps they are surprised it didn't happen before. They are | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
worried that it might happen again. What has happened in Scotland as a | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
catalyst for a much broader discussion about UK wide | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
devolution. We will be talking about that later in the programme. To what | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
extent are people there are aware of the fact that in Northern Ireland | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
and people in Wales and across England are looking in on this | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
debate and expecting to be a part of it? It has certainly been mentioned. | :51:11. | :51:20. | |
All politics is local. The Scots are pretty obsessed by their own | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
situation here, more so than what is happening in England and the rest of | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
the UK. I think some of them are looking on quite suspiciously. Some | :51:30. | :51:39. | |
people are sceptical about what is going on. Alex Salmond is claiming | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
already that the voters here have been tricked. Whether that is true | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
or not we will see in the coming days and weeks. The quiet majority, | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
the people who voted to remain in the UK, not all of them want more | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
powers for Scotland. I think the political establishment in Scotland | :52:00. | :52:11. | |
will expect that to happen. Sammy Wilson, clearly people are still | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
continuing to debate the issue of Scottish independence on the street | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
even though the vote is over and there was a clear margin against it. | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
That 45% of people who wanted independence and haven't got it will | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
not go away. There is a future constitutional discussion to cool | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
place -- to take place. How do you put the genie back in the box? Adam | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
think you can. The debate got better as went on. We sought the nasty side | :52:43. | :52:51. | |
of nationalism. Individual voters were afraid to put up notices. | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
Businessmen being intimidated and told they would be looked at after | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
the vote was over and so on. Relatively speaking, it was a pretty | :53:05. | :53:13. | |
good democratic exchange. They won't minor issues. The nasty side of | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
nationalism will leave a legacy. The single issue like that it is easy to | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
motivate people, rather than with the general run of politics, | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
especially when it is identified as party politics. If the debate on | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
that particular issue is going to continue. I think it will be | :53:33. | :53:40. | |
divisive. Even with the way in which Alex Salmond is trying to keep it | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
going with pointing to UK politicians and saying they will | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
renege on their promises. We haven't even had Westminster sitting against | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
a hike and he said that? There is clear blue water between what the Ed | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
saying and the Prime Minister is saying. Ed Miliband is taking the | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
opportunity to have a poke at the Conservatives on this. There seems | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
to be really a difference in the timing of getting things three. | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
Those timings will be important. Daithi McKay, can you put the genie | :54:15. | :54:21. | |
back in the box? What Sammy has outlined is that the scaremongering | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
will continue even after the resultant Scotland. Scotland had a | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
great democratic debate and I would love to see the same here, a mature | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
debate with little to no scaremongering and people can | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
empower themselves as opposed to leaving the politics to the | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
politicians. Are you talking for a border poll? Yes, we would like to | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
see one. How would that be anything other than another sideshow? It | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
would lead to a public debate, as to where our future with life. How | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
would that be helpful? We can't resolve welfare reform, things like | :55:00. | :55:01. | |
flags, parades and the past, why would we want to start a right about | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
a border poll? The reason why we can't resolve those issues is | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
because there is British government interference in those issues. What | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
we need to do is have that border poll so people can have that debate. | :55:18. | :55:27. | |
No border poll as far as you are concerned? It is her diversionary | :55:28. | :55:36. | |
tactic by Sinn Fein. Their incompetence in the Assembly is | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
stripping them of everyday. A border poll would be a good way of | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
diverting attention from their own incompetence. He should bear in mind | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
that in recent polls even 25% of the room supporters say that they | :55:49. | :55:50. | |
wouldn't support a united Ireland. Now, with a look at the rest | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
of the political week in 60 seconds, Ian Paisley was buried in County | :55:56. | :56:11. | |
Down after a private service at his home. In a newspaper interview his | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
son described his father's critics as pygmies in his shadow. Sinn Fein | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
protested as Drew Nelson became Deputy Chief Constable saying the | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
selection process was flawed. Belfast councillor as well as Drew | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
Nelson became Deputy Chief Constable saying the selection process was | :56:28. | :56:29. | |
flawed. Belfast councillors were asked to take a. There is no | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
appetite for its. The executive received a gift from an American of | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
?58 million to promote education plans here. He wants to see peace | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
and do that through his giving in order to bring about change. After | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
Scotland said No, difference of opinion for more devolved powers for | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
Stormont. Things have changed utterly and we need the British | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
government to deliver. If you have those powers, you can't have | :57:05. | :57:05. | |
deadlock in your executive. So, no sooner is the independence | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
referendum over than the focus shifts to the next big electoral | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
test, the General Election, which The Labour Party is first out of | :57:13. | :57:14. | |
the blocks with its party conference Stephen Walker is there and when I | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
caught up with him earlier I asked him about the mood among delegates | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
after last week's Scottish vote. I think it is a mixture of delight | :57:27. | :57:41. | |
and relief. People here are delighted that Scotland has voted to | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
remain part of the UK, delighted the way that it went, but there is | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
relief because a number of days back in April came out saying that the | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
Yes were ahead. There were ahead. Scotland would the union. There is a | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
fundamental understanding that many people in Scotland have voted for | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
change. People have voted for more powers for Scotland and the need to | :58:07. | :58:08. | |
get on the bits agenda revolving devolution. There is an | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
understanding here is that there is a lot of work still to be done. UK | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
politics has become consumed with the future of devolution. Will it | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
dominate the agenda this week? It will. The whole issue of devolution | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
and constitutional change, well it is something that interests | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
journalists and academics, it is not often interest normal people. It is | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
now something that is on the front page of the newspapers. This issue | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
of devolution will dominate this conference. People will be talking | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
about what kind of powers we expect to see in Wales, Northern Ireland | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
and Scotland. There is a fundamental difference between Labour and the | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
Conservatives. David Cameron give a press conference in Downing Street | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
last Friday morning when he talked about linking changes in Scotland to | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
what Scottish MPs can do at Westminster. Labour have a | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
completely different position, they want change to go ahead and not | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
linked to this whole issue of Scottish MPs at Westminster. Labour | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
want this constitutional convention. There is a fundamental difference | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
between Labour and the Conservatives. The SNP are accusing | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
the Westminster parties of reneging on the deal. The whole issue of | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
devolution is not on the front page. In the meantime, we'll Northern | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
Ireland featured to any great extent in the conference agenda? I think it | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
will. Because of a direct result of what has been happening in Scotland. | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
Northern Ireland is on the agenda every year but because of what has | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
happened there is a greater impetus. Tomorrow we will have a | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
speech from Ivan Lewis, the Shadow Secretary of State, and he will | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
mention Scotland. Then this whole ongoing debate about what kind of | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
powers should be devolved to places like Belfast, Edinburgh and Wales. | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
Because of what has happened in Scotland, the whole issue of | :00:06. | :00:12. | |
devolution will be on the agenda. Sammy Wilson, if we have a | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
constitutional debate about devolution, does that mean that you | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
could go back as an MP who cannot discuss certain issues on the floor | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
of the House of Commons? I think it is a possibility. I have some | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
sympathy with the argument that where there is legislation which | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
affects only England, why should I as someone has already got those | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
powers devolved to Northern Ireland have a say in its? It is not always | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
clear-cut, of course. Let's take HS2, the real three England. That | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
has implications for the whole of the United Kingdom, shoes should I | :00:48. | :00:55. | |
have a say on that? Is a matter for our MPs, we don't take our seats. | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit. | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott. | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store. | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish | :01:27. | :01:38. | |
votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws, | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
certainly don't agree with that. I campaign for powers to be given to | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why? | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
get reform in a more federal structure, and even English | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
want real protection in England, vote Conservative, and if you want | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland, | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that. | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
democratic link with the people? I live in whole, and it stops on the | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in, | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after. | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions, | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that. | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable. | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP, | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point. | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around, | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
started off on the minimum wage. You are trying to deal with those left | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved. If | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
say, I know what we do, housing, health, the people. That is our | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record. | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it, | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us. | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something. | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates, you | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
were watching on the big screen, when it came up that their favourite | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That | :12:16. | :12:26. | |
is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at | :12:29. | :12:45. | |
a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
today. Don't applaud them, they are useless. | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:18. | :13:24. |