14/09/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


14/09/2014

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Northern Ireland.


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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

:00:38.:00:43.

Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

:00:44.:00:45.

their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

:00:46.:00:54.

They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

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beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

:00:58.:01:03.

The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

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Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

:01:06.:01:07.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

:01:08.:01:10.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

:01:11.:01:12.

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

:01:13.:01:16.

Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

:01:17.:01:24.

he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

:01:25.:01:26.

As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

:01:27.:01:34.

I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

:01:35.:01:36.

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown,

:01:37.:01:44.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

:01:45.:01:46.

pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.

:01:47.:01:50.

And on Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland:

:01:51.:01:51.

Ian Paisley's legacy, we hear from friend and foe

:01:52.:01:55.

on their dealings with the political giant through both

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tumultuous and more peaceful times. step closer back to Parliament. Is

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Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that

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Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the

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The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American

:02:19.:02:23.

journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently

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beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.

:02:26.:02:29.

The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,

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also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK.

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Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed

:02:36.:02:37.

His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he

:02:38.:02:42.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said

:02:43.:02:49.

his heart went out to Mr Haines? family, who had shown extraordinary

:02:50.:02:52.

Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power

:02:53.:03:02.

to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,

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Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.

:03:05.:03:09.

Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr

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Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.

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Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who

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have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David

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Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action

:03:40.:03:42.

Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or

:03:43.:03:54.

any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a

:03:55.:03:59.

will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in

:04:00.:04:02.

that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a

:04:03.:04:08.

collective response to what is a threat to humanity.

:04:09.:04:10.

Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now

:04:11.:04:12.

Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet

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again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options

:04:25.:04:30.

facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I

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think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these

:04:35.:04:40.

hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government

:04:41.:04:43.

policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states

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are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to

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make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might

:04:53.:04:58.

be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the

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past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the

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hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one

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there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the

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difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.

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Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction

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the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in

:05:30.:05:36.

perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not

:05:37.:05:41.

just in Iraq, but also in Syria. We heard from President Obama outlining

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his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about

:05:46.:05:47.

building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And

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training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the

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UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been

:05:59.:06:08.

arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually

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conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We

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have not got a clear answer from government and that is something

:06:19.:06:29.

where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible

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we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I

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think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to

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a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however

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terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play

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more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait

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see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would

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like to see would be British and American special forces going in and

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getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is

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very difficult, isn't it? It is. As you saw with a rescue mission a few

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months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the

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ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of

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kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so

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you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get

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the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a

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possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly

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challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating

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within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are

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looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,

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thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed

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to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever

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lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked

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like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,

:08:02.:08:04.

though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO

:08:05.:08:06.

would carry the day. The new consensus is that

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it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of

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the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign

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had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the

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undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of

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63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move

:08:37.:08:41.

into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as

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the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the

:08:48.:08:49.

average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.

:08:50.:08:54.

There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the

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first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the

:09:00.:09:03.

other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by

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Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and

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there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have

:09:21.:09:24.

the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but

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their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another

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suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against

:09:36.:09:45.

50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with

:09:46.:09:52.

yes at 49% and polls -- no at 51%. But some people think 18% are

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undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling

:09:57.:09:59.

booths that could make all the difference.

:10:00.:10:01.

campaigner and Respect Party MP, George Galloway.

:10:02.:10:05.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the

:10:06.:10:12.

Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You

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sure you are on right side? Yes, because the interests of working

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people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,

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a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been

:10:24.:10:29.

achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being

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thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the

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underlying interests of working people are on working on the

:10:38.:10:40.

relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very

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messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the

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children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,

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and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded

:10:54.:10:56.

that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK

:10:57.:11:00.

context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the

:11:01.:11:06.

opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in

:11:07.:11:10.

taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on

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companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest

:11:17.:11:20.

of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,

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country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public

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expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have

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Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The

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British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex

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Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.

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And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,

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the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be

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gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working

:12:00.:12:02.

people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in

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fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,

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Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely

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if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the

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way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But

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Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May. The

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polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the

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average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip

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and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as

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Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour

:12:47.:12:48.

government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a

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stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.

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That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the

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people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on

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your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my

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feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the

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house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not

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only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy

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-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will

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mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The

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cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the

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financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry

:13:50.:13:54.

of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or

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less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in

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an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about

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nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are

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against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by

:14:13.:14:16.

independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.

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The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The

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danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex

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Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately

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joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --

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involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a

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peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole

:14:47.:14:50.

that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military

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entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,

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till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the

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grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines

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and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other

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hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British

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nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it

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showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely

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riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to

:15:33.:15:37.

be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises

:15:38.:15:44.

of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for

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the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told

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us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?

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I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result.

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This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation

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of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The

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country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And

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the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a

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300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour

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leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer

:16:54.:16:59.

one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this

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deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side, it

:17:05.:17:10.

will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,

:17:11.:17:13.

particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and

:17:14.:17:17.

decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of

:17:18.:17:23.

Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just

:17:24.:17:28.

months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of

:17:29.:17:33.

people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a

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grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which

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history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get

:17:46.:17:50.

out of its deathbed in Scotland, it will have to become Labour again.

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Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,

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they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in

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Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the

:18:12.:18:15.

Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the

:18:16.:18:20.

chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly

:18:21.:18:25.

right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty

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and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many

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but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,

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but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the

:18:43.:18:47.

situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It

:18:48.:18:53.

is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the

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roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she

:19:00.:19:03.

pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would

:19:04.:19:08.

not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.

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If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it

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would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another

:19:17.:19:20.

issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the

:19:21.:19:26.

Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering

:19:27.:19:32.

home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had

:19:33.:19:38.

signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble

:19:39.:19:43.

for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of

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all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to

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risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win

:19:56.:19:59.

on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe

:20:00.:20:06.

fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already

:20:07.:20:10.

aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with

:20:11.:20:17.

death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday

:20:18.:20:23.

if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this

:20:24.:20:29.

home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on

:20:30.:20:33.

this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland

:20:34.:20:40.

getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole

:20:41.:20:49.

procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home

:20:50.:20:54.

rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to

:20:55.:21:00.

introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional

:21:01.:21:04.

monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England. It

:21:05.:21:10.

was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James

:21:11.:21:17.

Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not

:21:18.:21:23.

rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.

:21:24.:21:29.

It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns

:21:30.:21:31.

in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum

:21:32.:21:35.

Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign.

:21:36.:21:46.

It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new

:21:47.:21:52.

great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,

:21:53.:21:59.

Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous

:22:00.:22:03.

Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.

:22:04.:22:10.

Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the

:22:11.:22:14.

referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron

:22:15.:22:19.

did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set

:22:20.:22:24.

out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,

:22:25.:22:30.

a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed

:22:31.:22:36.

improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a

:22:37.:22:41.

basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called

:22:42.:22:47.

Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the

:22:48.:22:52.

leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded

:22:53.:22:56.

with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of

:22:57.:23:00.

campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a

:23:01.:23:05.

break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes

:23:06.:23:10.

campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they

:23:11.:23:16.

accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when

:23:17.:23:24.

the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one

:23:25.:23:29.

week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the

:23:30.:23:34.

first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to

:23:35.:23:39.

head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that

:23:40.:23:43.

you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision

:23:44.:23:47.

if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally

:23:48.:23:56.

different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex

:23:57.:24:01.

Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the

:24:02.:24:05.

NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden

:24:06.:24:15.

-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex

:24:16.:24:21.

Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were

:24:22.:24:28.

other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like

:24:29.:24:32.

Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join

:24:33.:24:38.

the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?

:24:39.:24:42.

This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,

:24:43.:24:50.

Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are

:24:51.:24:53.

proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to

:24:54.:25:00.

stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and

:25:01.:25:03.

centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more

:25:04.:25:07.

devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the

:25:08.:25:12.

parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster

:25:13.:25:16.

some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister

:25:17.:25:21.

if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a

:25:22.:25:26.

good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'

:25:27.:25:32.

views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I

:25:33.:25:41.

am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from

:25:42.:25:44.

Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and

:25:45.:25:47.

I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly

:25:48.:25:52.

inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it

:25:53.:25:57.

would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30

:25:58.:26:02.

hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more

:26:03.:26:06.

about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.

:26:07.:26:10.

And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor

:26:11.:26:13.

of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.

:26:14.:26:15.

An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership

:26:16.:26:27.

of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations - is

:26:28.:26:32.

that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's

:26:33.:26:42.

prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is

:26:43.:26:47.

not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two

:26:48.:26:53.

years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting

:26:54.:26:58.

for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes

:26:59.:27:03.

on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom

:27:04.:27:08.

because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free

:27:09.:27:13.

prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not

:27:14.:27:18.

in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the

:27:19.:27:23.

price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry

:27:24.:27:27.

about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing

:27:28.:27:34.

stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power

:27:35.:27:44.

generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,

:27:45.:27:49.

natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class

:27:50.:27:54.

universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the

:27:55.:27:58.

world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the

:27:59.:28:02.

revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but

:28:03.:28:06.

it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand

:28:07.:28:10.

still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections

:28:11.:28:14.

of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to

:28:15.:28:21.

keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and

:28:22.:28:26.

you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.

:28:27.:28:33.

That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the

:28:34.:28:37.

most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic

:28:38.:28:45.

stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee

:28:46.:28:48.

employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking

:28:49.:28:54.

about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to

:28:55.:29:00.

continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the

:29:01.:29:04.

minimum survival of the oil is 40 years. Please get your viewers to go

:29:05.:29:15.

onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The

:29:16.:29:27.

West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done

:29:28.:29:32.

because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil

:29:33.:29:38.

because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident

:29:39.:29:47.

and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn

:29:48.:29:53.

his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions

:29:54.:29:58.

and change are not just single event. What will happen here on

:29:59.:30:02.

Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being

:30:03.:30:08.

patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and

:30:09.:30:13.

abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice.

:30:14.:30:18.

What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you

:30:19.:30:27.

against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes

:30:28.:30:31.

campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we

:30:32.:30:36.

are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a

:30:37.:30:44.

scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay

:30:45.:30:49.

on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be

:30:50.:30:53.

lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave

:30:54.:31:02.

the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your

:31:03.:31:08.

way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of

:31:09.:31:13.

business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be

:31:14.:31:17.

clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,

:31:18.:31:27.

because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England

:31:28.:31:34.

want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in

:31:35.:31:38.

Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the

:31:39.:31:42.

jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent

:31:43.:31:46.

and investing in social housing, the people of England will say, we can

:31:47.:31:50.

do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In

:31:51.:31:55.

wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are

:31:56.:31:58.

fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the

:31:59.:32:02.

socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it

:32:03.:32:10.

work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in

:32:11.:32:14.

Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters

:32:15.:32:17.

in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can

:32:18.:32:22.

reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three

:32:23.:32:26.

Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,

:32:27.:32:30.

austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election, he

:32:31.:32:34.

said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed

:32:35.:32:39.

Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see

:32:40.:32:44.

if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last

:32:45.:32:47.

Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The

:32:48.:32:51.

Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in

:32:52.:32:57.

Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do

:32:58.:33:01.

you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish

:33:02.:33:17.

general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you

:33:18.:33:19.

went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won

:33:20.:33:26.

a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why

:33:27.:33:30.

they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has

:33:31.:33:34.

thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and

:33:35.:33:39.

protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP

:33:40.:33:44.

who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the

:33:45.:33:49.

NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale

:33:50.:33:53.

people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public

:33:54.:33:57.

ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George

:33:58.:34:00.

Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish

:34:01.:34:06.

Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right

:34:07.:34:09.

in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,

:34:10.:34:14.

Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent

:34:15.:34:16.

Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an

:34:17.:34:22.

independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir

:34:23.:34:28.

Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the

:34:29.:34:33.

right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist

:34:34.:34:38.

vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence

:34:39.:34:45.

people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who

:34:46.:34:51.

fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.

:34:52.:34:54.

Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who

:34:55.:35:01.

engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I'm

:35:02.:35:04.

still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,

:35:05.:35:11.

Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,

:35:12.:35:14.

I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,

:35:15.:35:18.

it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any

:35:19.:35:24.

young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't

:35:25.:35:29.

care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the

:35:30.:35:34.

unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who

:35:35.:35:41.

support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the

:35:42.:35:44.

campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the

:35:45.:35:49.

establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what

:35:50.:35:53.

they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your

:35:54.:35:57.

coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial

:35:58.:36:02.

control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and

:36:03.:36:07.

the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.

:36:08.:36:10.

Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.

:36:11.:36:14.

Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses

:36:15.:36:19.

if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking

:36:20.:36:24.

to lose. We are going to win, 60/40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that

:36:25.:36:32.

you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.

:36:33.:36:35.

Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with

:36:36.:36:41.

the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.

:36:42.:36:48.

They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for

:36:49.:36:52.

freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So

:36:53.:36:57.

far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might

:36:58.:37:00.

happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to

:37:01.:37:03.

you later with George Galloway. Hello,

:37:04.:37:20.

and welcome to Sunday Politics. Courageous, controversial,

:37:21.:37:22.

a colossus, uncompromising... Just some

:37:23.:37:25.

of the terms used to describe In this extended edition

:37:26.:37:29.

of the programme, I'll be assessing his career with former colleagues

:37:30.:37:33.

and political opponents. As the Orange Order appeals to

:37:34.:37:35.

Scottish voters not to go it alone, we get the latest news

:37:36.:37:40.

on the referendum campaign. And with their thoughts,

:37:41.:37:43.

the Irish News columnist Brian Feeney and Ballymena Guardian

:37:44.:37:45.

editor, Jim Flanagan. He was a defining, dividing figure

:37:46.:37:55.

in Northern Ireland's history and that legacy is writ large

:37:56.:37:58.

across the newspaper headlines this weekend as we look back at

:37:59.:38:03.

the life and legacy of Ian Paisley. The former DUP leader who died

:38:04.:38:06.

on Friday will be buried It will mark the end

:38:07.:38:08.

of a remarkable journey from the defiance and protest

:38:09.:38:14.

of the firebrand preacher to the compromise and accommodation of the

:38:15.:38:16.

First Minister who shared power with Where are you from?

:38:17.:38:44.

The BBC. What BBC? The BBC. If this is the way they want to play yet we

:38:45.:38:51.

declare our attention is that we will organise massive

:38:52.:38:51.

demonstrations. A great mentor and a great friend,

:38:52.:39:43.

the words of Edwin Poots paying The Health Minister's father stood

:39:44.:39:49.

alongside Dr Paisley in 1969 as a Protestant Unionist candidate

:39:50.:39:53.

and it was a relationship that For you this is personal

:39:54.:39:55.

and political. We'll talk about the political

:39:56.:40:02.

in a moment but your family and How difficult have the past few

:40:03.:40:05.

days been for you personally? well, we knew him quite well and I

:40:06.:40:19.

think things were coming to an end. It has been a sad time for the

:40:20.:40:25.

Paisley family who have been very close to Ian Paisley through the

:40:26.:40:29.

years despite his very public life, they have had a very personal

:40:30.:40:33.

relationship. The relationship that Italy between him and his wife

:40:34.:40:41.

Eileen was one that we could all look to. The love between them

:40:42.:40:45.

whatsoever that and it was something we could all aspire to. Politically

:40:46.:40:49.

we all know that he went on a remarkable journey in the latter

:40:50.:40:53.

days of his career. What's your family entirely comfortable with

:40:54.:40:58.

that? We have stood with Ian Paisley from right back in the late 1960s

:40:59.:41:02.

until he passed away and we absolutely stood with him all of the

:41:03.:41:11.

way. There was no issue there. Ian Paisley has been quite wrongly

:41:12.:41:14.

described over the years. He was a lot more pragmatic than people give

:41:15.:41:21.

him credit for. In 1981 when the Atkins talks took place in the

:41:22.:41:26.

Ulster Unionist did not take part and then later the SDLP opted out

:41:27.:41:32.

and then in further talks Peter Robinson did some negotiations and

:41:33.:41:35.

went back to Ian Paisley and sold it to him. The reality is that over the

:41:36.:41:43.

period of the 1980s and into the 1990s it was not Ian Paisley that

:41:44.:41:47.

was the blockage about moving forward. He always stood against

:41:48.:41:52.

compromise. There was no question of that. He said in one sermon that if

:41:53.:41:57.

you compromise God will curse you but he pulled off the most

:41:58.:42:00.

remarkable compromise that this state has ever seen, how did he do

:42:01.:42:07.

that? I think if you are mixing the religious and the political, on the

:42:08.:42:10.

religious side of things he did not compromise and that is very clear.

:42:11.:42:15.

His preaching was uncompromising that salvation was through the blood

:42:16.:42:19.

of Jesus Christ alone and he had no truck with those who sought to do

:42:20.:42:23.

things by work so he was on compromising in his preaching. In

:42:24.:42:28.

his politics you always have to recognise that you have to have a

:42:29.:42:32.

degree of pragmatism and their work principles that could not be

:42:33.:42:35.

compromised on one could not be compromised was that Sinn Fein had

:42:36.:42:39.

to accept the rule of law and except the police. Everybody said that

:42:40.:42:44.

would never happen and Ian Paisley made it happen. He destroyed other

:42:45.:42:48.

Unionist leaders who were looking for pragmatic solutions to problems

:42:49.:42:53.

in the late 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and 1990s and he was dead fast Lee

:42:54.:42:58.

opposed to that. He saw a whole list of Ulster Unionist leaders including

:42:59.:43:05.

David Trimble because they were prepared to compromise. You say he

:43:06.:43:10.

was pragmatic. He was a man of his time. He was a contradiction and an

:43:11.:43:17.

enigma! Very much so. In the 1970s the IRA killed many people. In 1972

:43:18.:43:23.

and 1973 300 or 400 people were getting killed in those years. They

:43:24.:43:26.

were awful full time that politics was not going to be the solution at

:43:27.:43:33.

that period. There had to be a bringing the IRA to heal in

:43:34.:43:36.

particular and the security forces had a job to do and there would

:43:37.:43:40.

never be a political settlement that the IRA would accept so it was

:43:41.:43:44.

almost impossible for any unionist to accept a settlement that would

:43:45.:43:49.

allow the IRA to continue to engage. There are those who feel he

:43:50.:43:53.

caused a lot of hurt and indeed fanned the flames during the darkest

:43:54.:43:57.

days of the trouble is, do you access to that? No. Why not? There

:43:58.:44:02.

is evidence to suggest that is the case. There is also evidence to

:44:03.:44:07.

suggest something different. I was a man growing up during the troubles

:44:08.:44:10.

and I would have been very angry at what was seeing on the television

:44:11.:44:14.

screens and I was angry about hearing men in the Ulster defence

:44:15.:44:17.

Regiment being killed and police officers being killed on our

:44:18.:44:21.

streets. It was largely through Ian Paisley that young men like me did

:44:22.:44:26.

not end up in paramilitary organisations. We saw a strong

:44:27.:44:28.

leader who would fight our case politically. There is the

:44:29.:44:33.

contradiction because others went down the paramilitary road because

:44:34.:44:38.

they said they did it because of what Ian Paisley said. Yesterday a

:44:39.:44:42.

woman in the Times said many who ended up in prison ruefully pointed

:44:43.:44:47.

to Ian Paisley as their recruiting Sergeant. And yet I was the

:44:48.:44:52.

opposite, I saw him as a strong voice in politics and I did not need

:44:53.:44:56.

to engage in some fight back. If he had given the rubber-stamp to map --

:44:57.:45:03.

paramilitaries and he had given the rubber stamp to go out and take the

:45:04.:45:09.

IRA on in any means... But he flirted with the paramilitaries. His

:45:10.:45:14.

critics called him the grand old Duke of York. By what ever means,

:45:15.:45:19.

many of us who would have ended up in Paola military organisations did

:45:20.:45:22.

not because of him. But some people did and that is part of the tragedy

:45:23.:45:27.

of Northern Ireland. Many of those would have ended up in paramilitary

:45:28.:45:31.

organisations despite of Ian Paisley. What you think of people

:45:32.:45:38.

who chose to forget his past actions and focus only on the last few years

:45:39.:45:43.

of his career where he was in government and he befriended Martin

:45:44.:45:45.

McGuinness and went through his chuckle Brothers base. I find him a

:45:46.:45:54.

more attractive figure in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s. He was strong,

:45:55.:46:00.

resolute and he was forceful. His pragmatism, which I indicated was

:46:01.:46:05.

already existing in those years when others have just whitewashed that

:46:06.:46:09.

and said he was a blockage when it was actually the Ulster Unionists

:46:10.:46:12.

and John Hume who were the biggest blockage. If you talk to senior

:46:13.:46:16.

civil servants they will tell you that John Hume was more of a

:46:17.:46:20.

blockage to progress than Ian Paisley ever was. I am just stating

:46:21.:46:29.

a fact. The negotiations took place and they could not do it. Let me ask

:46:30.:46:34.

you about the way in which he ended his career, seemingly isolated,

:46:35.:46:37.

divorced from the party he founded and the church that he founded. You

:46:38.:46:42.

are free Presbyterians and a route leading member of the DUP, does it

:46:43.:46:48.

sad anew that he was seemingly ostracised from the organisations in

:46:49.:46:55.

the final stages of his life? -- sadden you. That is not quite

:46:56.:46:59.

correct. He was invited to our annual dinner every year and he

:47:00.:47:04.

attended every year. He spoke each year and we had great times

:47:05.:47:10.

together. Look out what he said all stop I was at a funeral yesterday in

:47:11.:47:15.

a free Presbyterian Church and the amount of affection that existed for

:47:16.:47:18.

Ian Paisley there was absolutely phenomenal. Did exist the other way

:47:19.:47:26.

around? Was the affection from him and his family for the church? His

:47:27.:47:32.

family made the announcement and the party knew nothing about his death

:47:33.:47:37.

until the media broadcast the news. That is quite right that the family

:47:38.:47:40.

were the people who were with him at his death. He had a private life as

:47:41.:47:45.

well and they were entitled to a private life. His family were very

:47:46.:47:49.

close and a lot of us are very close to that family and it will always be

:47:50.:47:53.

the case. In one sentence, what should be his lasting legacy? His

:47:54.:47:59.

lasting legacy was a strong man who stood for the Ulster people, who saw

:48:00.:48:03.

there was a deal to be done and had the courage to do it. Thank you very

:48:04.:48:07.

much for joining us. Let's hear the thoughts

:48:08.:48:08.

of my two guests of the day, Brian Feeney, a strongman who, at

:48:09.:48:18.

the end of the day, did the deal. That is what Edwin Poots says his

:48:19.:48:23.

legacy should be. Might that be part of his legacy? Yes, it is. If it had

:48:24.:48:27.

not been for Ian Paisley there would not have been a deal because nobody

:48:28.:48:32.

else could have carried the DUP with him and made that deal. The reason

:48:33.:48:37.

for that was that Ian Paisley, throughout the whole of his career,

:48:38.:48:43.

had concentrated on attacking the IRA and the Catholic church and

:48:44.:48:48.

merging them together in some of his attacks. But really what his target

:48:49.:48:53.

was was the Ulster Unionists party. The fact that some people say he

:48:54.:48:57.

woke up every morning trying to work out what damage he could do to the

:48:58.:49:00.

Ulster Unionists because he wanted to be top dog. He would not make a

:49:01.:49:05.

deal until he was in a position to be top dog and that happened after

:49:06.:49:10.

he became the leader of the largest party in 2003. That unsettled so

:49:11.:49:14.

many of the people that made him top dog. Of course it did. He led them

:49:15.:49:23.

to believe he would never compromise. The trouble with the

:49:24.:49:25.

bridges that it goes over to the other side and all of the phrases

:49:26.:49:28.

that he said, he spent his whole career attacking Ulster Unionist

:49:29.:49:31.

leaders. As you mentioned, right from O'Neill and the whole way

:49:32.:49:34.

through until David Trimble and then he settled for much the same as

:49:35.:49:38.

David Trimble except you may note that one of the differences in the

:49:39.:49:41.

St Andrews agreement was that the deal was that the First Minister

:49:42.:49:46.

would be the leader of the largest party, not elected on a cross

:49:47.:49:49.

community basis, because obviously he believed he would be the leader

:49:50.:49:53.

of the largest party and it never occurred to him that it might be

:49:54.:49:58.

Sinn Fein. North Antrim was his constituency for many decades and

:49:59.:50:01.

Ballymena was at the heart of his power base. How will people there

:50:02.:50:07.

come to terms with this news, his poor support? They will remember him

:50:08.:50:12.

very fondly for all the work you did for that constituency. He took his

:50:13.:50:16.

peerage title from the area. The most insightful interview I did with

:50:17.:50:21.

him was actually at Stormont on the eve of his standing down as an MP

:50:22.:50:26.

and he was in a reflective mood at that point. He had been

:50:27.:50:31.

confrontational through his life and he was not everybody's cup of tea,

:50:32.:50:37.

the firebrand of politics, what he said was that he had a lot to be

:50:38.:50:40.

confrontational about in those days, not least a campaign by

:50:41.:50:44.

terrorists to destroy Northern Ireland. He was very critical of the

:50:45.:50:48.

intentions of the British government has well. It is the contradictions

:50:49.:50:52.

and be enigmas that a lot of people are struggling to get their heads

:50:53.:50:57.

around. It is not an enigma a contradiction. He is driven by

:50:58.:51:04.

blazing ambition. He wanted us to be the leader of the Ulster Protestant

:51:05.:51:07.

unionists. When he talks about the Ulster people, he talks about the

:51:08.:51:11.

Protestant people of Ulster. When Edwin Poots says it is pragmatic, is

:51:12.:51:19.

that in a nutshell? Ian Paisley in the early 1970s had visited Dublin

:51:20.:51:23.

to see if there was any deal that could be done. He was even talking

:51:24.:51:30.

in terms of the possibility of redesigning the constitution in

:51:31.:51:33.

Northern Ireland, he was open to discussion. He was not in a position

:51:34.:51:39.

to deliver anything until after 2003. He was an instinctive

:51:40.:51:44.

politician and some of the mistakes he made in his career would have

:51:45.:51:48.

been because he acted on gut instinct. That instinct got him most

:51:49.:51:52.

of the right decisions as well. Would he have accepted that he made

:51:53.:51:59.

mistakes and he was infallible? -- fallible. He has excepted that over

:52:00.:52:06.

and over again. The truth is that we are in a better place in Northern

:52:07.:52:09.

Ireland because we had someone strong to stand up to republicanism

:52:10.:52:13.

-- republicanism over the years but he still had the courage to ensure

:52:14.:52:19.

there was a deal to have peace in Northern Ireland. Ultimately his

:52:20.:52:21.

career will be defined by the deal he did in Sinn Fein. Edwin Poots,

:52:22.:52:29.

thank you very much indeed and we will hear from our guests later in

:52:30.:52:31.

the programme. Among those who had serious

:52:32.:52:37.

disagreements with Ian Paisley over the years were

:52:38.:52:41.

direct rule Ministers. However, despite sometimes heated

:52:42.:52:43.

disputes, many retained a degree of respect and even affection

:52:44.:52:45.

for the former DUP leader. Among them one of Mrs Thatcher's

:52:46.:52:47.

Secretaries of State, Peter Brooke. Our Political Reporter Stephen

:52:48.:52:50.

Walker spoke to Baron Brooke When US Secretary of State, you

:52:51.:52:57.

would have had had lots of dealings with Ian Paisley? I was asked by the

:52:58.:53:06.

press how we could square the circle in terms of getting into talks when

:53:07.:53:11.

it looked as though there was no way in which the circle could be

:53:12.:53:16.

squared. And I used to reply then that politics is about human beings

:53:17.:53:21.

and human beings, you know, they come in all shapes and sizes and

:53:22.:53:26.

they have also is of different kinds of family. But the family is

:53:27.:53:31.

important. And just as I think that those who are involved in Sinn Fein

:53:32.:53:39.

IRA will have had families and will have wondered how long it was all

:53:40.:53:44.

going to go on for their families, I was quite clear that, as a

:53:45.:53:48.

grandfather, Ian Paisley was conscious of the future, and that in

:53:49.:53:55.

the ultimate analysis, he did not want his descendants to go through

:53:56.:54:01.

the same experiences or see the province go through the same

:54:02.:54:05.

experiences that they before. And I was confident that when push came to

:54:06.:54:10.

shove, he would in fact to make the right decisions. And there was a

:54:11.:54:14.

moment, obviously, in his thinking when he decided, I am going to have

:54:15.:54:20.

to share power with Sinn Fein? I've never talked to him about it but

:54:21.:54:24.

that would appear to need to be the case. How do you think history will

:54:25.:54:32.

judge Ian Paisley? Well, as I say, human beings and politicians come in

:54:33.:54:36.

all shapes and sizes. And he believed very strongly in his

:54:37.:54:42.

various causes. And I did periodically ask him to explain the

:54:43.:54:50.

theology of particular parables. He was concerned about what was my own

:54:51.:55:01.

doctrinal ancestry, and, in a sense, off duty we had some very, very good

:55:02.:55:10.

conversations and I think he, in the ultimate analysis, exercised his

:55:11.:55:14.

authority and responsibility well. Did you like Ian Paisley? I

:55:15.:55:19.

personally liked him considerably. Did you find there were two Ian

:55:20.:55:26.

Paisleys? One in private and one in public? Well, I'm very conscious

:55:27.:55:30.

that when he was saying rude things about me, you were saying them for

:55:31.:55:34.

his own political reasons! In any of the meetings you had with Ian

:55:35.:55:39.

Paisley, where tempers ever frayed? I don't... I genuinely don't think

:55:40.:55:46.

that. And I asked him once, was there ever an occasion when you

:55:47.:55:55.

felt, I said to him, I had let you down? You know, and had deceived you

:55:56.:56:05.

in any way? And he said, no. There are perhaps one or two occasions

:56:06.:56:09.

when I had to give you the benefit of the doubt but, in principle, you

:56:10.:56:14.

always behaved as you said you would. And you think history will be

:56:15.:56:22.

kind to him? Yes, I do. The former Secretary of State Peter Brooke.

:56:23.:56:26.

Joining me now are the former Alliance Party leader

:56:27.:56:28.

and past Speaker of the Assembly, Lord Alderdice, and from Dublin,

:56:29.:56:31.

the former MP, TD and civil rights leader Austin Currie.

:56:32.:56:33.

You are both very welcome to the programme. Lord Alderdice, how will

:56:34.:56:43.

you remember him? He could be charming and funny. The jokes are

:56:44.:56:47.

almost always on somebody else rather than himself! And actually

:56:48.:56:52.

was not bit of a court person to work with on a one-to-one basis in a

:56:53.:56:59.

meeting. But the other side of it, which is more important, is that

:57:00.:57:03.

effectively started out to undermine liberalism within the Protestant

:57:04.:57:07.

community, particularly within the Presbyterian Church, and liberalism

:57:08.:57:10.

within unionism, the people who wanted to move to and accommodation

:57:11.:57:16.

with nationalism on the island. And he targeted both of those over the

:57:17.:57:21.

years and with a very personal and sometimes nasty level. And in many

:57:22.:57:26.

ways he was successful at destroying those elements of liberalism.

:57:27.:57:30.

Ironically, of course, he came to realise that there was no future in

:57:31.:57:35.

the approach he was taking, and the result wasn't to produce a

:57:36.:57:39.

fundamentalist Protestantism of the kind he wanted but to see young

:57:40.:57:45.

people leaving old churches, and it did not lead to the kind of them he

:57:46.:57:49.

wanted, it let him going into government not with just

:57:50.:57:54.

nationalists but with the IRA. -- the kind of unionism. So in the end

:57:55.:57:58.

he got something even worse than he would have wanted and many of his

:57:59.:58:02.

forebears realise the route he had taken was a disastrous mistake for

:58:03.:58:07.

them and the country. Austin Currie, I wonder, do you think the actions

:58:08.:58:11.

of Ian Paisley in latter years in anyway make up for some of what he

:58:12.:58:17.

was involved with in some of his earlier days? He was vehemently

:58:18.:58:20.

opposed to the civil rights movement and you were one of the leading

:58:21.:58:24.

lights of that back in the 60s. Compromise certainly was not in his

:58:25.:58:29.

vocabulary at that time. Well, certainly they were a very close

:58:30.:58:33.

family and I wish to express my sincere sympathy to the family. I am

:58:34.:58:42.

reluctant to speak ill of the dead. But I have to say that the comments

:58:43.:58:52.

on Ian Paisley since his death have once again illustrated a rewriting

:58:53.:58:56.

of Irish history which has been going on for some time. I knew Ian

:58:57.:59:02.

Paisley very well. He and I were members of the 69 Stormont

:59:03.:59:09.

Parliament. There were only 52 of us so we really got to know each other

:59:10.:59:13.

very well. And in the mid-60s, I described Paisley as a bigoted

:59:14.:59:20.

hangover from the 17th century. I believe that then and I have had

:59:21.:59:30.

little reason to change my mind despite the most recent, almost

:59:31.:59:35.

deathbed conversion. But Paisley was one who attacked your religion, he

:59:36.:59:46.

talked about Catholics reading like rabbits, and multiplying like

:59:47.:59:50.

vermin. -- breeding like rabbits. He attacked the leadership of not only

:59:51.:59:53.

the Catholic Church but the Protestant churches. If the words

:59:54.:00:03.

hate crime had been valid at that particular time, there's no doubt

:00:04.:00:07.

Paisley would have been guilty of hate crime. Austin, you also said in

:00:08.:00:13.

a statement released at the weekend, so let me just quote it, you said,

:00:14.:00:19.

Paisley and the Provos share responsibility for the outbreak and

:00:20.:00:23.

the intensity and outbreak of The Troubles. It is difficult to

:00:24.:00:26.

separate their degrees of responsibility. Is that absolutely

:00:27.:00:33.

fair? Yes, I think it is. And the reaction of certain Provos who have

:00:34.:00:36.

talked about their love for Paisley indicates that they were involved in

:00:37.:00:43.

parallel activity. I am reminded and have been reminded of O'Connell, who

:00:44.:00:51.

was the former IRA chief of staff, and at a time when leading members

:00:52.:00:58.

of the SDLP were described as legitimate targets, he was asked

:00:59.:01:05.

whether Paisley should be shot, and he said no, because he was worth

:01:06.:01:13.

dozens of recruiting sergeants for the Republican movement. On the

:01:14.:01:21.

political front, I had two major disappointments with him. One, those

:01:22.:01:26.

of us who were involved at the start of the civil rights movement

:01:27.:01:29.

believed that we could attract Protestant support because

:01:30.:01:36.

working-class Protestants were much the same position as working-class

:01:37.:01:40.

Catholics. -- were in much the same decision. He ruined that possibility

:01:41.:01:46.

of winning over that support. And then, of course, the power-sharing

:01:47.:01:52.

executive, which, he, along with the IRA, was responsible for bringing

:01:53.:01:56.

down, you do seem to realise it when he brought down in 1974 was almost

:01:57.:02:03.

exactly the same thing he was claiming to support as chief

:02:04.:02:07.

executive. -- he did not seem to realise. You were nodding

:02:08.:02:12.

enthusiastically on that last point. Is that a key thing to understand in

:02:13.:02:17.

the career of Ian Paisley? It is crucial to understand. Ian Stokes

:02:18.:02:24.

these things up before there was IRA violence, long before. And even on

:02:25.:02:28.

the political side, he was damaging and destroying those who wanted a

:02:29.:02:31.

more creative approach to their faith. And there was a very

:02:32.:02:36.

unpleasant personal attack which damaged people not just

:02:37.:02:38.

professionally but personally. And they had lasting impact. I say that

:02:39.:02:45.

as a Presbyterians. He was very opposed to the Presbyterian Church

:02:46.:02:50.

and its move towards humanism. Exactly. Any openness to discussion

:02:51.:02:54.

and engagement were bitterly attacked. And that is not to say

:02:55.:03:00.

that he couldn't be a very pleasant companion and chat and all of those

:03:01.:03:03.

kinds of things. My father knew him bury well, my uncle knew him very

:03:04.:03:09.

well. I knew his background in Ballymena very well. -- knew him

:03:10.:03:15.

very well. But because of his influence, use tipped up the trouble

:03:16.:03:19.

and then later realised it did not bring the outcome that he sought and

:03:20.:03:26.

turned turtle. -- he stoked up the trouble. What do you think things

:03:27.:03:33.

would look like over the last 40 years of Ian Paisley had not been

:03:34.:03:37.

part of that story? I cannot tell you what way it would have been but

:03:38.:03:41.

I can say this. There were many leading people in the churches and

:03:42.:03:45.

impolitic who were trying to move gradually towards the kind of

:03:46.:03:49.

accommodation we are struggling to settle into now. -- in politics. And

:03:50.:03:56.

his extraordinary ability and his extraordinary negative ability is

:03:57.:03:59.

what destroyed those efforts and led to the loss of many lives are much

:04:00.:04:04.

misery which we now, and he and his slate of years, found himself trying

:04:05.:04:09.

to reconstruct. -- and he in his later years. So how will history

:04:10.:04:19.

judge him for going into government with Martin McGuinness? We cannot

:04:20.:04:24.

say. For the moment it is positive and later people will look at it and

:04:25.:04:28.

they might not be as kind as my colleague Sir Peter Brooks suggests.

:04:29.:04:32.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

:04:33.:04:36.

To Scotland now, and the referendum campaign,

:04:37.:04:38.

On Thursday, four million voters in Scotland will

:04:39.:04:41.

decide either to become independent or to stay part of the UK.

:04:42.:04:44.

Yesterday in Edinburgh, Members of the Grand Orange Lodge

:04:45.:04:46.

of Scotland paraded along the Royal Mile in the centre of

:04:47.:04:49.

Among them, Orange Order members and bands from Northern Ireland.

:04:50.:04:53.

Police estimated the turnout at around 15,000 in total,

:04:54.:04:55.

and although the marchers were supporting a no vote, the official

:04:56.:04:58.

Better Together campaign had refused to publicly support the event.

:04:59.:05:05.

There have been warnings of possible economic catastrophe for Scotland if

:05:06.:05:11.

it votes to go it alone, with comparisons to the Great

:05:12.:05:15.

Depression, and financial institutions saying they will

:05:16.:05:18.

relocate to London. But what about here? What might it mean for public

:05:19.:05:25.

spending? These are the thoughts of John Campbell. The trade we do with

:05:26.:05:29.

Scotland is substantial. Manufacturing is thought to be worth

:05:30.:05:33.

about ?700 million a year. Some of our biggest construction firms do a

:05:34.:05:37.

huge amount of business there. One has just started building an

:05:38.:05:41.

extension to Tony Blair's old school in Edinburgh. An independent

:05:42.:05:45.

Scotland could make all that trade a little trickier. For example, what

:05:46.:05:50.

impact will different tax and regulatory systems have? And it is

:05:51.:05:53.

still far from certain what currency will be used. Those factors would

:05:54.:05:56.

not make things easier but we should not overstate them either. Tax on

:05:57.:06:02.

currency things many firms deal with everyone -- everyday when they deal

:06:03.:06:06.

cross-border into the Republic. And, remember, an independent Scotland

:06:07.:06:10.

will have to be an open trading economy with as few barriers as

:06:11.:06:13.

possible. But the real indications are around our public finances. At

:06:14.:06:18.

the moment, public spending and distribution across different parts

:06:19.:06:21.

of the UK is worked out using the Barnett formula. We do well under

:06:22.:06:25.

that. If Scotland leaves, the whole system will have to change. It takes

:06:26.:06:28.

a lot of optimism to imagine Stormont will get a better deal. And

:06:29.:06:38.

with Scotland being offered more tax and spending powers if they reject

:06:39.:06:40.

independence, that, too, will call into question the financial motion

:06:41.:06:43.

ship between Westminster and other nations. -- the financial

:06:44.:06:48.

relationship. Would our politicians be prepared to raise taxes to give

:06:49.:06:52.

the health service more would they cut taxes and therefore services in

:06:53.:06:57.

an attempt to spark entrepreneurial activity? These new responsibilities

:06:58.:07:01.

may be coming with a Stormont wants them or not. John Campbell with his

:07:02.:07:06.

thoughts on the possible economic consequences for us of Scottish

:07:07.:07:10.

independence. New polls suggesting this weekend that the no vote will

:07:11.:07:13.

carry the day but the campaign appears to have taken a nasty turn,

:07:14.:07:17.

with warnings and threats coming from also hides. Let's get more from

:07:18.:07:22.

Gerry Braiden from the Glasgow Herald. Only one of the polls, as I

:07:23.:07:27.

understand it, has the yes vote in the lead, and I think I read it

:07:28.:07:32.

saying it was commissioned by the Yes campaign. Today, it has yes on

:07:33.:07:45.

54 compared to the no on 46. Another has yes on 51 and no on 49. It seems

:07:46.:07:51.

a long time since the Better Together campaign. Labour was saying

:07:52.:07:54.

they were expecting a vote of somewhere around 70-30 to put this

:07:55.:08:00.

to bed. If you ask Better Together campaign now where they would take a

:08:01.:08:06.

vote of 50.4%, they would bite your hand off for it! The poles are more

:08:07.:08:10.

than snapshots in this campaign. They have been a catalyst. -- the

:08:11.:08:16.

opinion polls. The reason why the UK political establishment and the

:08:17.:08:19.

media are in Scotland and the reason the markets are getting jittery and

:08:20.:08:25.

the reason the Yes campaign has the mental and confidence is all of

:08:26.:08:31.

this. -- the momentum. There are no two ways about it. UK constitutional

:08:32.:08:39.

position is on a knife edge as it has been since 1921, 22. The Better

:08:40.:08:44.

Together campaign had a shock last week with the YouGov poll which put

:08:45.:08:53.

the yes vote ahead. You saying it is not a given and it be as tight as

:08:54.:08:56.

50.1%? I have seen comments that Alistair

:08:57.:09:19.

Darling is confident of a win for his campaign. I buy into the theory

:09:20.:09:23.

of a silent majority, the people that do not give that much of a damn

:09:24.:09:28.

about the constitutional position of the United Kingdom will come out on

:09:29.:09:32.

the day and they will vote for the No campaign. I am a bit less

:09:33.:09:37.

confident that this morning than I was before. What about these

:09:38.:09:42.

undecided people? We have the race on both sides to appeal to the

:09:43.:09:50.

undecideds and I was wondering if people are trying to steal for the

:09:51.:09:55.

other side, Labour voters who might vote for the No campaign they are

:09:56.:09:59.

trying to get them over to vote for the Yes campaign and then they can

:10:00.:10:04.

come back to Labour. There is apparently poaching and counter

:10:05.:10:07.

poaching. The number of undecided people, and you will hear anything

:10:08.:10:13.

from 5% to 15%, is a story in itself. It is an indication that

:10:14.:10:18.

there are people who are probably not content with the constitutional

:10:19.:10:20.

arrangements that we have at the moment and they might think they are

:10:21.:10:24.

in favour of an independent Scotland but they have a bit of an issue with

:10:25.:10:28.

it. You are right that the campaign does seem to be before the Labour --

:10:29.:10:40.

does seem to be for the Labour vote. A recent poll says that in the last

:10:41.:10:46.

month one third of people have been swayed by what they are hearing from

:10:47.:10:51.

the Yes campaign but only 7% from the No campaign. That is

:10:52.:10:54.

fascinating. Whatever happens it is clear it will be tight, as you have

:10:55.:10:59.

it -- suggested and we now expect. When people in Scotland wake up on

:11:00.:11:04.

Friday morning, whatever the result has been, is it a given that

:11:05.:11:11.

Scotland is a divided nation? There is a real tangible political frisson

:11:12.:11:16.

in coffee shops and buses and school playgrounds and everywhere. I do not

:11:17.:11:19.

think Scotland will ever be the same again. There is this tangible desire

:11:20.:11:27.

for political change that even Ed Miliband is talking about in the

:11:28.:11:30.

Observer today that things can never go back to the way they these are

:11:31.:11:34.

much promised a devolved powers. What happens on Friday is all down

:11:35.:11:39.

to what the vote delivers. Certainly for the foreseeable future, given

:11:40.:11:43.

the scenario is racking up front of us and the rise of UKIP, there is

:11:44.:11:48.

certainly going to be a polarisation in the body politic in Scotland

:11:49.:11:52.

unlike anything we have seen in -- since the 1980s.

:11:53.:11:54.

We will now get the final comments from my studio guests. You are

:11:55.:12:09.

political so I imagine you are following it closely. Should we

:12:10.:12:14.

care? My daughter works in Glasgow so I have been following it closely.

:12:15.:12:19.

It has become polarised debate with both sides making extravagant

:12:20.:12:22.

claims. The Better Together camp warning the dangers and putting the

:12:23.:12:28.

frighteners on people, my own opinion is that they do not know

:12:29.:12:33.

group may be inclined to vote against it because you are inclined

:12:34.:12:38.

to do that if you are not sure. I think the No campaign will shade

:12:39.:12:42.

it. The evidence from places like Quebec is that as the last week

:12:43.:12:48.

happens people go to be safe and go for the No campaign. It is very

:12:49.:12:52.

divisive. The reaction of the No campaign in the last week has been

:12:53.:12:55.

appalling. Peter Hitchens this morning has said the only thing they

:12:56.:13:00.

haven't threatened the yes people with his exploding Agassiz. They

:13:01.:13:03.

have done everything possible to try and scare the yes people with his

:13:04.:13:05.

exploding Agassiz. They have done everything possible to try and scare

:13:06.:13:11.

them and lot of changes they vote for the Yes campaign because it will

:13:12.:13:15.

be like the Irish free State in 1922 who had the pound and coins and

:13:16.:13:23.

notes and everything. We are going to have an intriguing time watching

:13:24.:13:26.

the situation unfold. Thank you very much indeed.

:13:27.:13:28.

everyone in the team for now, bye bye.

:13:29.:13:58.

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