Browse content similar to 26/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
Labour? If you go to work by public | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up - | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man? | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans | :01:12. | :01:12. | |
And coming up here... recent years by party veterans like | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
And coming up here... Does Stormont need an opposition? | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
The Ulster Unionist leader has already said no, so why is Lord | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
Empey proposing the idea at Westminster? Find out in | :01:25. | :01:39. | |
And with me - as always - the political panel so fresh-faced, | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
entertaining and downright popular they make Justin Bieber look like a | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
boring old has-been just desperate to get your attention. Nick Watt, | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and they'll be tweeting quicker than a | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami Beach. Being political nerds, they | :01:52. | :02:08. | |
have no idea what I'm talking about. Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
yesterday. We kinda thought Labour would head for the election with a | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
return to the 50p top rate of tax. But we didn't think he'd do it now. | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
He did! The polls say it's popular, Labour activists now have a spring | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
in their step. The Tories say it's a return to the bad old days of the | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
'70s, and bosses now think Labour is anti-business. Here's the Shadow | :02:28. | :02:29. | |
Chancellor speaking earlier this morning. I was part of a Government | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
which did very many things to open up markets, to make the Bank of | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
England independent, to work closely with business, but the reality is we | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
are in very difficult circumstances and because if I'm honest you, | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
George Osborne's failure in the last few years, those difficult | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
circumstances will last into the next Parliament. Business people | :02:44. | :02:52. | |
have said to me they want to get the deficit down, of course they do. But | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
to cut the top rate... It is foolish and feeds resentment I want to do | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
the opposite and say look, pro-business, pro investment, pro | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
market, but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway and | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
make the reforms to make our economy work for the long term. What are the | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35% | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
where Ed Balls want them to be. All three main parties have roughly the | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
to restore this 50 persons rate. The contribution of that will be | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values. | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
that's the question looking difficult for them this morning. | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business. | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay. | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more. I said if he doesn't apologise, he | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
do you do then? I hope he doesn't. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
problem that exposed the weaknesses of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
long credited with building its success. The situation was making | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious, | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader. | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week, | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now. | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
"family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite, | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How | :12:28. | :12:38. | |
refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is | :13:03. | :13:14. | |
Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
resolve that. Except he is threatening through his friends, | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure. | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today | :15:18. | :15:28. | |
programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
the same period. It means some rail users are paying high prices with | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview. | :16:38. | :16:51. | |
Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while | :17:00. | :17:08. | |
their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase | :17:25. | :17:33. | |
since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
great Western. We are spending ?500 million at Birmingham station, this | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the | :18:01. | :18:10. | |
network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey, | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
similar distances to international cities. | :18:37. | :18:44. | |
The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing | :18:45. | :18:53. | |
record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise, | :19:02. | :19:19. | |
as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not | :19:42. | :19:51. | |
quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned. | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
journeys going from 750 million to 1.5 billion. That is a massive | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
revolution in rail. Let me look 1.5 billion. That is a massive | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
spokesperson for the German government, the Ministry of | :20:45. | :20:44. | |
transport. They are charging huge fares in | :20:45. | :21:01. | |
Britain to take that money back to subsidise fares in Germany. What do | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
you say to that? We are seeing British companies winning contracts | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
in Germany. The National Express are winning contracts to the railways. | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
What about the ordinary commuter? They are paying through the nose so | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
German commuters can travel more cheaply. We are still subsidising | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
the railways in this country, but overall we want to reduce the | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
subsidy we are giving. We are still seeing growth in our railways and I | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
want to see more people using them. Why do you increase rail fares at | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
the higher RPI measure than the lower CPI measurement? That is what | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
has always been done, and we have stopped. This is the first time in | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
ten years that we have not raised the rail figures above RPI. You | :21:57. | :22:06. | |
still link fares to RPI. You use the lower CPI figure when it suits you, | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI | :22:32. | :22:39. | |
vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
Line and the great Western, ?3.5 billion of investment, new rolling | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger. | :22:59. | :23:12. | |
You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are | :23:17. | :23:26. | |
the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you? | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are | :23:34. | :23:46. | |
setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don't | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising, | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in | :24:41. | :24:54. | |
new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
services, it has to be paid for. Why not run the old buses for five more | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of | :25:43. | :25:51. | |
people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877 | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for | :26:31. | :26:41. | |
this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It | :26:42. | :26:54. | |
is vital HS2 provides what we want. What I am very pleased about is when | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago, | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will | :27:19. | :27:27. | |
do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2 | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget, | :27:46. | :27:56. | |
do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.5 | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour. | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may | :28:29. | :28:36. | |
get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief | :28:43. | :28:52. | |
executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
question about it, but I'm rather pleased that engineers rather than | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
bankers can be seen to get big rewards for delivering what will be | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
very important pieces of national infrastructure. I didn't have time | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
to ask you about your passenger duty so perhaps another time. We are | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
about to speak to Nigel Mills and all of these MPs on your side who | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
are rebelling against the Government, how would you handle | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
them? We have got to listen to what our colleagues are talking about and | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
try to respond it. Would you take them for a long walk off a short | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
pier? I'm sure I would have many conversations with them. An | :29:45. | :29:56. | |
immigration bill to tack the immigration into the UK. When limits | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
on migration from Bulgaria and Romania were lifted this year there | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
were warnings of a large influx of migrant workerses from the two new | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
European countries. So far it's been more of a dribble than a flood. Who | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz greeting a handful of arrivals at | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
Luton Airport. But it is early days and it is one of the reasons the | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
Government's introduced a new Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
is facing rebellion from backbenchers who want tougher action | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
on immigration from abroad. Nigel Mills would reimpose restrictions on | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
how many Romanians and Bulgarians can come here. Joining me is Nigel | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
Mills, Conservative MP behind the amendment and Labour MP Diane | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there hasn't been an influx of Romanians | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
and Bulgarians. Why do you want to restore these, kick these | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
transitional controls way forward to 2019? I don't think any of us were | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
expecting a rush on January 1st, Andrew. I think we were talking | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
about a range of 250,000 to 350,000 people over five years. That's | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
obviously a large amount of people, especially when you think net | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
migration to the UK was well in excess of the Government's target of | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
tens of thousands last year. The real concern is that it would be | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
ever increasing our population, attracting lots of low-skilled, | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
low-wage people, which keeps our people out of work and wages down. | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
Did you accept that if you were to accept this, it would be in breach | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
of the Treaty of Rome, the founding principle of the European Union? We | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
were trying to keep the restrictions that Bulgaria and Romania accepted | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
for their first seven years of EU membership, on the basis that when | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
we signed the treaty we weren't aware that we would have a huge and | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
catastrophic recession we are still recovering from. But you would be in | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
breach of the law, correct? The UK Parliament has a right to say we | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
signed this deal before the terrible recession, and we need a bit longer | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
in our national interest. It is worth noting that Bulgaria and | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
Romania haven't met all their accession requirements. The | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
Bulgarian requirement passed a law... So if they break the law it | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
is alright for us to break the law? Is we should be focusing on trying | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
to get 2. 4 million of our own in work, and 1 million people not in | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
work... Let me bring in Diane Abbott. Will you vote for this | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
amendment and why? It is in breach of the treaty. While I deplore MPs | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
that try to cause trouble, these MPs have been particularly mindless, | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
because what they want to do wouldn't be legal. However, it is a | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
Tory internal brief, if I might say so. Maybe you can cause trouble by | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
voting for it. No, that would be going too far. Underlying it is a | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
real antagonism for David Cameron. They have had to hold off on this | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
bill until January. It was supposed to be debating before Christmas. As | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
we speak they've not cut a deal, so it could be pretty grus om. Nigel | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
Mills, what do you say to that I think there is a recognition that | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
there is a problem with the amount of migration from EU countries that | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
we need to tackle. We could try to achieve an annual cap perhaps, | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
longer limits on when countries get free movement. I think the debate is | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
moving in the right direction, but I think those people who are trapped | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
out of work and desperately looking for work want something to be done | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
now and not wait a few more years while we have more assessments | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
Andrews. People are worried about the level of immigration. They I it | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
is too high. That's the consensus in the country. We spoke to to | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
migration centre in Hackney and they said they are struggling to cope | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
with the number of people using their services. These are people | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
with problems with the law. In the past years EU migrants put in more | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
to the economy in taxation than they take out in benefits. When it comes | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
to free movement, which is agitating Nige em, that horse has bolted. We | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
signed a treaty. There is nothing people like Nigel Mills can do, | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
unless they want to rip their party apart, God forbid. Will you go as | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
far as to rip your party apart, Nigel Mills? Are you going to take | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
this all the way? Would you rather see this bill go down than your | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
amendment not be accepted? This is a very important bill. I think we all | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
want to see measures on the statute book, so the last thing we want to | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
see is this bill go down. We do need to set out clearly that we have real | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
concerns about the level of EU migration and something needs to be | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
done. Would you rather have the bill without your amendment or no bill at | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
all? I am hoping we can have the bill with the amendment. I know | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
that, but if you can't? Is that will depend on what the Labour Party | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
decide to do. They are talking tougher on immigration but will they | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
take action on it? Your party has been talking tough on immigration | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
but I will be surprised if an Ed Miliband Labour Party would vote for | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
egg in direct cameravention of the Treaty of Rome. It would make no | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for the impossible. If I was a Tory I | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
would be wringing high hands. He hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
That's incredible. Where will this end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
vote on Thursday. There's a lot of amendments people can use to show | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
their concern about migration. We want limited and proportionate | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
action, and that's what I am proposing. I want to see the bill on | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
the statute book, I want the restrictions on people who shouldn't | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
be here getting bank accounts and driving licences. I don't want to | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
crash this bill but there's more measures we need in it. Nigel Mills | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
thank you. You are going to be -- popping up I think on the Sunday | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
Politics East Midlands. Diane Abbott, thank you as well. | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
We're in for more heavy rain and high winds across the UK today. You | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
may remember that one UKIP councillor - he's since been | :36:58. | :36:59. | |
suspended - caused controversy last weekend by blaming the recent | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
flooding on the legalisation of gay marriage. Why didn't I think of | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
that? So who better than this man to bring you the unofficial forecast. | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
I'll be bringing you the late least UKIP weather from your area. | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
You're watching Sunday Politics. Also coming up in just over 20 | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
minutes, I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel. | :37:22. | :37:23. | |
Until Welcome to Sunday politics in | :37:24. | :37:38. | |
Northern Ireland. The Ulster Unionist Party has said no to | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
opposition at Stormont, get one of his peers is proposing that very | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
thing. Where does the party stand? We will hear from Lord MP and former | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
Ulster Unionist Party 's NI21 deputy leader John McCallister. | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
And pressure over welfare reform. Those who resist the inevitability | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
of welfare reform can answer why our roads budget, education budget has | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
to lose out next year and potentially next year, too. | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
With me throughout with their thoughts, academic Cathy | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
Gormley-Heenan and journalist Sam McBride. | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
It was a fundamental part of the Good Friday Agreement, the creation | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
of a mandatory coalition. But every so often the debate over | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
establishing an official opposition cranks up a gear. This time it is | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
the turn of the Ulster Unionist Party the party chairman has tabled | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
an amendment to the Northern Ireland Bill which would pave the way for | :38:40. | :38:48. | |
opposition. The party NI21 have the stated | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
intention of campaigning for an opposition. | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
Welcome to the programme, Lord Empey, first of all, why are you | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
making a case for formal opposition at Stormont at this stage? Because | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
there is a piece of legislation in front of Parliament that allows me | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
to do so, the Northern Ireland miscellaneous provisions Bill and | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
allows you to put forward items of a wide range of areas. | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
I have put forward a series of amendments. There is a legislative | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
vehicle in front of us at this point. So you can do it, the | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
question is why choose to do it? It looks to the public, I suggest, | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
that it is a change of tack on the part of the Ulster Unionist Party. | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
You were not in favour of opposition, now you appear to be. I | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
am afraid you are wrong. Our 2010 manifesto had provision for | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
opposition. In our manifesto for 2011 it is included, and at Mike | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
Nesbitt's maiden speech he raised the question of opposition. Whether | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
we as a party would ever seek to be an opposition is a totally different | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
issue from whether we have an official opposition or not. We want | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
the provision could be applied because we think it will strengthen | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
Stormont, it will move us one stage towards more normal politics and I | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
cannot see any reason why anyone would be opposed to it. | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
In the public mind, John McCallister stood for the story -- Ulster | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
Unionist leader against Mike Nesbitt, he stood on a ticket of | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
wanting to take the party into opposition and Mike Nesbitt oppose | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
that. Now the former leader looks to be supporting opposition. Can you | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
see how that looks strange to the public? John wanted to take the | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
party into opposition there and then. | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
We are arguing there is no opposition facility at Stormont to | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
take the party into. All you can do is remove yourself from the | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
executive and just sit there. There is no status, you will get no | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
speaking rights, supply days or anything and opposition would get. | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
John McCallister, do you accept that analysis? | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
My Private Members' Bill would create that, and effectively at the | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
minute we are looking at two former leaders of the Ulster Unionist Party | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
effectively wanting to take powers away from the Northern Ireland | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
Assembly. Legal advice in this is quite clear. | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
We can do this at Stormont, and that is the place this should be being | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
done. I welcome the debate, but if he wants to do something in the | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
Northern Ireland miscellaneous Bill, what he should be doing is tackling | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
the bits we cannot do at Stormont, like designation or particularly | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
tackling the way we elect the Justice Minister. You are saying | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
this debate is unnecessary because you think the powers already reside | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
at Stormont? Let me be clear on that, they reside | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
at Stormont. The legal advice is that they reside | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
at Stormont. That is where this should be decided and debated. But | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
that would be for something of informal opposition rather than | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
formal opposition. What he is wanting to do, all of | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
that is decided at Stormont, and we can change that. | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
The best vehicle to do that is in my Private Members' Bill. This point | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
about trying to normalise politics - you cannot have a party leader out | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
fighting a culture where -- culture war and then talk about normalising | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
politics. The public will not understand that message. You cannot | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
talk about opposition as you would claim, Reg, for about 16 years and | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
not want to go into it, not see that we believe strong enough to go into | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
it. We believe in having it but do not want to go into it seems to be | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
the message from the UUP. John McCallister is saying, Reg Empey, | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
that this should be the preserve of the MLAs at Stormont. | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
No, if he looks at his own party's website on the 27th of August, when | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
he sat beside Alex came at a seminar organised by himself on opposition, | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
Alex Kane made it absolutely clear that if you went down the road he | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
wants to go down and leave it at Stormont you would be the way thing | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
of the shin of -- of Sinn Fein and the DUP, they can snuff you out like | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
that. Standing orders at Stormont can be changed at any point by the | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
largest two parties. We want to have it in statute so there is no | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
question that the stat us of an opposition is not dependent on the | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
goodwill of the two parties who happen to be in control. -- the | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
status. Does that mean that Mike Nesbitt would want to take the | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
Australian unionists into opposition? | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
He can do that at the moment anyway. -- the Ulster Unionists. | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
No, he cannot. All you can do is become a group of | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
backbenchers with no status. First of all, any party that thinks in an | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
election fights to win. You fight to win, to get support for your | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
policies and implement them in over a month. But on occasion, parties do | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
not win. -- implement them in government. We want to have an | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
opposition which is officially recognised which cannot be the | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
plaything of any two parties at Stormont. The methodology for | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
electing ministers and selecting them is all in the Northern Ireland | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
act, so should opposition be. There is not very much separating you, is | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
there? The point is, opposition is not | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
mentioned in the Northern Ireland act. | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
For that very reason it means it is a devolved matter and the Northern | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
Ireland Assembly can change it. Alex Kane is not a lawyer for the | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
Northern Ireland Assembly, there is not the legal adviser. And Professor | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
Rick Wilford doesn't know what he is doing? | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
The advice from the Assembly is that opposition is a devolved matter and | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
when you read through Reg's amendment we can change that in the | :45:11. | :45:12. | |
Assembly and that is the best vehicle to do it. | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
Reg talks about being snuffed out by the DUP and Sinn Fein if they wanted | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
to. You mention a few things like the Afive, it is hardly a ringing | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
endorsement of the Ulster Unionist Party being in government. -- the | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
A5. This is a debate we should be all on. You cannot do that while in | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
government and fighting a culture war at the same time. All of those | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
things contradict each other. John is arguing to totally different | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
things. Whether due as a party are in opposition is one issue. What I | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
am dealing with is providing a structural mechanism to allow it to | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
happen at Westminster where it cannot be interfered with by | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
Stormont. Otherwise the parties that control Stormont can snuff you out | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
at any time. You accept you can do it at Stormont? | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
No, you cannot do that. You can. | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
The legal advice is clear. You can change standing orders, not | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
primary legislation. But the place to do primary | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
legislation is at Stormont. It is not, you are totally wrong. I would | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
welcome him to the debate behaviour is doing something, particularly | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
around designation. We will leave it there, thank you | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
both for now. Let's hear from our commentators, | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
Cathy Gormley-Heenan and Sam McBride. Sam, some people think we | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
may be dancing on the head of a pin, others think this is a fundamental | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
issue that needs to be clarified, which is it for you? It is both. | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
Sitting on the fence! It is going to be teased out at Westminster, | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
whether the government takes this as an amendment to its bill. | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
If it does, and Lord Empey as closer links to the Tories through the | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
history of the Ulster Unionist Party, and if they do then clearly | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
the legal advice that the government has is that it can. If they do not, | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
there will be a question over that. There are two separate issues here. | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
Is there a mechanism for opposition? Sometimes I think public | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
unhappiness at Stormont has forced a debate into the parties, where the | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
Ulster Unionist Party is reluctant about this, increasingly there is | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
this realisation that something has to be done, and the debate has moved | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
on to two separate ways to do the same thing. What is your opinion on | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
where authority arrived as Michael resides? | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
You are an academic and you know Rick Wilford and Alex Kane very | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
well, you know the territory very well, do you side with John or Reg? | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
I am not a legal expert. I am not prepared to side with | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
either of them. I am heartened by this debate, today, because it puts | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
the issue of opposition squarely onto the agenda. Last year the | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
Assembly and review committee looked at this issue specifically. They put | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
out a call for a consultation. Not many people got involved in the | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
debate at the time under this forces us to have a thorough and robust | :48:22. | :48:30. | |
debate on the mechanisms for an opposition and what that may mean | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
for Northern Ireland, particularly for things like who would chair the | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
Public Accounts Committee? Northern Ireland is the only area in the UK | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
that has a Public Accounts Committee not chaired by the member of the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
opposition. That is important to me because an opposition at its core is | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
about good governance and holding the government to account. You | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
cannot hold yourself to account if you are holding the office and | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
holding the accountability mechanisms, as well. That is why | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
this debate, complicated as it may seem, is important. It is | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
fundamental. The debate that has been hand, that | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
people outside of the political village have had come is forcing the | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
pace on this. -- the debate that has been hand. | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
?15 million has been lost out of the executive budget already this year | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
because of our failure to agree on welfare reform. The finance minister | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
warned this week the penalty is expected to increase significantly. | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
The welfare reform Bill was pulled in April because of a lack of | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
agreement with the DUP blaming Sinn Fein for a delay. The finance | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
minister, Simon Hamilton, said he was disappointed no progress had | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
been made. I will have to return to the welfare reform issue. | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
I am hugely disappointed no progress has been made on this issue. As a | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
result, the executive had no option but to set aside ?50 million to | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
cover the cost of financial penalties for the remaining three | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
months of this financial year. This, in effect, as one colleague | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
described it, is dead money, returning to the Treasury, which is | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
now unable to be spent on services that benefit our citizens. Those who | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
resist, Mr Speaker, the inevitability of welfare reform, can | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
answer why our health budget, roads budget or schools budget has to lose | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
out this year. It is my party's view that in terms | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
of the ?15 million of welfare money, that is not dead money. That | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
15 million is still in the pockets of many low income people. It is | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
more likely to be spent, in terms of local economy and retail and other | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
areas. That 15 million is not dead money, it is money that is quite | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
important to the local economy. The differing views of Simon Hamilton | :50:48. | :50:55. | |
and Daithi McKay. With me is Les Allamby, an expert in | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
welfare law. Where do we stand on this complicated issue? All of the | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
main political parties are critical of welfare reform as it is in | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
Britain. You can understand why, because | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
Sheffield Hallam University recently did a survey that said ?750 million | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
will come out of the economy if we slavishly follow the GB reform, and | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
of the local authorities across the UK seven out of the top 20 were | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
actually in Northern Ireland. Where we are is the two main parties in | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
government, Sinn Fein and the DUP, worked very hard over the summer to | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
try and get a deal, and they got a measure of agreement on a number of | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
issues on this in the public domain, such as the bedroom tax | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
which has gone very badly in Britain. They will only introduce it | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
for new claimants. You think that is the deal they have reached? That is | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
not the whole of the deal but it is part of it. | :51:54. | :51:55. | |
There are other parts of the deal, I think they have followed the | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
Scottish model, which is to put more money into what will be called the | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
discretionary support fund here and to do other things. Where the two | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
parties are parting company that at the moment is that is the deal as | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
far as the DUP are concerned, but for Sinn Fein I think the issue is, | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
is that a staging post in the deal? There is the added complicity for | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
Sinn Fein that they have been very critical of the South's coalition | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
austerity policies and therefore they have an awkward position of, if | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
they implement austerity there in Northern Ireland, they obviously | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
have a very strong equality agenda, but welfare reform will increase | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
economic and social inequality. They are between a rock and a hard | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
place, Sinn Fein. People would say that if the bones of a deal are in | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
existence, the sooner they get it published and signed up to in public | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
the better. Potentially, Northern Ireland plc is | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
losing ?5 million per month now to the Treasury again. We know that has | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
not been imposed as yet, but potentially the amount of money we | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
are going to lose from our budget is significant. | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
We had an earlier legal debate, and there is -- interesting legal debate | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
about how the Treasury can implement the ?5 million financial penalty. Do | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
you think it is a hollow threat? I don't think it is a hollow threat, | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
because they could do it relatively quickly. | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
On the other hand, I think it is clearly important. We would have | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
been pushed into a decision much more quickly if welfare reform and | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
universal credit and Personal Independence Payments had gone with | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
the timetable in Britain, but it's slowed down on the universal credit | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
side because of problems with IP. In my view on the Personal Independence | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
Payments side it has slowed down because it has played very badly for | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
people with disabilities and the government has slowed that down | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
because of an election. Therefore most of the pain will be felt in the | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
early period of the next government. That has given us some breathing | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
space. I would personally like to see what the two parties agree on | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
being published, so that we can see where we are now and then have a | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
debate about other things we may want to do above and beyond that. | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
The two main parties may agree on something of deal to move this | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
forward, but it requires wider society to agree on that. | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
But also, critically, the other parties at Stormont. | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
Absolutely, and both the Ulster Unionist Party, particularly Michael | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
Copeland as the spokesperson, and the SDLP have been largely kept out | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
of the loop, and they are particularly very critical. One of | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
our worries is that what will happen with welfare reform is it will | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
become a political football, whereas actually what we are dealing with is | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
the importance of Social Security for people, particularly of working | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
age, and it may well prove to be counterintuitive, just as the | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
economy is getting back on its feet, that we do the number of things in | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
Social Security that actually take us in the other direction and have a | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
negative impact on economic recovery. It is a tough, bread and | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
butter issue for our politicians to deal with this. What makes it | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
interesting is that it is outside the usual binary political debate. | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
It is. If we look at the local authorities worst affected by this - | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
Belfast, Strabane, Coleraine - it affects heartlands of both the main | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
political parties. This will play very badly in the heartlands of both | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
the DUP and Sinn Fein, and they are both very aware of that. Therefore, | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
the politics of this are really important as well as the actual | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
outcomes for the people on the ground. If the Personal Independence | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
Payments are introduced as it is, then 25% of people of working age | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
under Disability Living Allowance will lose benefit altogether when | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
they move across to that. That is a lot of money coming out of the local | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
economy, a lot of hardship, and that will have to be picked up somewhere | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
else as -- in terms of health or housing problems. In Britain this is | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
happening, other places are happy that Michael having to pick up the | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
slack. It is not saving the money the government originally intended. | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
-- other places are having to pick up the slack. | :56:24. | :56:31. | |
Cathy, do you get the sense that the two main parties are inching toward | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
something of agreement on this? Inching is probably the right word. | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
There is the possibility of an agreement on the horizon, in part | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
driven by the fact that there may be penalties brought to bear on others. | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
Simon Hamilton has said he has kept aside 50 million to pay for the | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
first quarter of penalties at ?5 billion per month. -- 15 million. ?5 | :56:55. | :57:04. | |
million per month. The Treasury has said they will levy the penalty if | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
they did not detect any progress. Progress and agreement are two | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
different things, and I think the two main parties can say they are | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
inching towards an agreed position on this, so they are making progress | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
without moving very fast. The reason for that, I think, is that moving at | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
a slow pace allows the politicians in Northern Ireland to really zone | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
in non-where the problems are in the rest of the UK, so that those | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
mistakes are not made here, for example around the competing | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
problems that they have had. It sounds a little bit like a carrot | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
and stick approach on the behalf of the Treasury. | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
Do you think this matter will be sorted out clearly once and for all. | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
No, because I think last year Nelson McCausland said publicly is that | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
four of the six areas he had agreed behind the scenes with the | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
government would be concessions to Northern Ireland. | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
We seem to be no further forward. I find it extraordinary that was not a | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
single party that supports the welfare reforms giving that polling | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
suggest they are popular. -- given that. Let's take a look at the week | :58:13. | :58:14. | |
in 60 seconds with Stephen Walker. It was friends this united as old | :58:15. | :58:30. | |
pals fell out. He was prepared to go forward to the | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
destruction of the party. But the current DUP leader was keeping his | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
own counsel. I do not intend to take part in | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
these kinds of recriminations. Others suggested Doctor Ian Paisley | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
was on his own. What Ian Paisley has done is expose | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
himself as a billy no mates. Another leading man said he would | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
exit the stage - Matt Baggot is to step down as the PSNI chief | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
constable. At Westminster, David Cameron said | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
the government would not intervene and impose a solution over flags, | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
parades and the past. I think if the parties work together and the | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
British and Irish Lions are there to help, I think we can make progress. | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
Even before it hit the stage, a spoof play on the Bible was shown | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
the final curtain by Newtownabbey Council. | :59:20. | :59:28. | |
Stephen Walker reporting. Cathy, has the dust finally settled on the two | :59:29. | :59:36. | |
Ian Paisley documentaries? I don't think so, I think people | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
will be interested in this story for a long time as the uninterested in | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
any political dynasty. It is of particular interest to us because | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
we're from Northern Ireland. -- as they are interested in any political | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
business -- dynasty. But coups were leaders are | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
overthrown, then we come back to the leader to the previous one who had | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
just been deposed. It is fascinating for us at a local level but this is | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
in practice practising politics internationally. | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
The intriguing place -- the intriguing thing is to wear all of | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
this leaves Ian Paisley junior. Even though he seems to have had limited | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
involvement in this year is the one person who remains that could be | :00:24. | :00:25. | |
punished. Thank you both very much for your | :00:26. | :00:27. | |
company. That is it back to you. | :00:28. | :00:42. | |
UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
week he's been outdoing himself. He was hit over the head with a placard | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all | :01:14. | :01:22. | |
areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill. The | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are | :01:50. | :01:57. | |
occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral, | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
and said his real mother was a 9 foot green alien. And in Wales a | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
councillor thinking about heading off for the | :02:17. | :02:25. | |
slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort. | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows, | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections. | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States, now | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital | :04:30. | :04:39. | |
foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party, the | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
Labour versus the Conservatives. The electorate will have their fun in | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the | :06:08. | :06:15. | |
Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I | :06:53. | :07:04. | |
like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
dispute anything we said on the show. | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well, | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy. | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
That's why we are announcing a ?23 billion package for 165,000 new | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
coming out of the ground, so we've made real progress on that. So, | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words. | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral. | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply, | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
garden cities project is interesting, because they finance | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers. | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy. | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
would superficial reading of the polls | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
today. That's all for today. Thanks to all | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the | :13:35. | :13:35. | |
Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers, | :13:36. | :14:13. | |
is now at war with Germany This would be the first | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
truly modern war. | :14:22. | :14:30. |