19/01/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the

views of a Sunday Politics focus group.

Coming up here, the fall-out from group. A

Coming up here, the fall-out from the latest row between Sinn Fein and

the DUP. We'll hear live from the leaders of SDLP, the Ulster

Unionists and Alliance. Join me in half an hour.

plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for

Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and

the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris

Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation

into the behaviour of the party's former chief executive, Lord

Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that

no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused

the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".

More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard

say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned

to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis

for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female

Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the

next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.

A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have

they made a complete mess of it? You feel for Nick Clegg, because he

launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC

looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of

proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence

from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly

credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord

Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal

advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not

apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick

Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not

launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it

was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib

Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with

policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being

cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the

Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There

are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and

letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a

generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind

of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists

and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.

Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort

of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last

year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do

what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual

harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story

may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one

that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have

come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether

he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this

week. So it's not been a great week for

the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of

a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking

to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny

Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters

there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the

microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have

voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.

I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the

former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of

the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they

be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They

give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in

to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles

under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit, not

top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.

A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I

think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else

was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too

concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that

is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.

The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place, for

them as a party, I feel slightly sorry for them. I think people who

voted for them will think they are victims as well, being sold down the

river by going to the coalition. I think the ones, particularly student

fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.

I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you

think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is

feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib

Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a

Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The

Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I

mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the

Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,

?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.

Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone

who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has

mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows

him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it

straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly

and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy

is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him

that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise

him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in

Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming

referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like

they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are

last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue

in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems

are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all

about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together

campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the

future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do

not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you

will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award

bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own

person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what

would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get

the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If

they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe

they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing

the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve

another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some

hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of

bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior

Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander.

Welcome to the programme. One of the things that comes through from the

focus group is that if there is any credit around for the economic

recovery, it is the Tories that are getting it, and you are not? What

can you do about that? The first thing to say is that the economy

would not be recovering if it was not for the Liberal Democrats. If it

was not for our decision right beginning in 2010 to form a strong,

stable coalition government that to deal with the problems, we would

still be in the mess that Labour left us with. Why are you not

getting the credit? That was one focus group. It was interesting to

hear opinions. We have to work very hard to get across the message that

the economy would not be recovering without the Liberal Democrats.

People would not be seeing the largest income tax cuts for a

generation without the Liberal Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold

that one of the people referred to is coming into peoples pay packets

this year. Lots of people recognise that. There was the one person in

the focus groups. This is your measure of success, raising the

people at which people pay income tax. But most of the voters do not

even give you credit for that. The role that we haven't British

politics as a party, is that we are the only party that can be trusted

to deliver a fair society and a strong economy. People know they

cannot trust the Labour Party. We saw it again from Ed Miliband this

morning. You cannot trust the Labour Party with the nation's finances. It

may well be your policy, the income tax threshold, but it is the Tories

that are getting the credit? I do not think that is true. I have spent

lots of time meeting photos and lots of people recognise that if it was

not for the Liberal Democrats, people would not be seeing those tax

cuts. We are helping disadvantaged children in schools. It is right

that we have to work very hard between now and polling day to do

several things, to make sure that we secure the recovery, there can be no

complacency. The economic recovery is in its early stages and we need

to make sure it is sustainable. We need to make sure the benefits of

the recovery are shared out people who have made sacrifices, people on

low pay, people who have seen their savings are eroded. The Tories have

now hijacked another Lib Dem policy, another big hike in the

minimum wage. You spoke about the need to make sure that people on low

pay benefit from the recovery, a big hike in the minimum wage. Did the

Chancellor consulting on this? We have been talking about it for some

time. Vince Cable asked the low pay commission for advice on this. Why

did Vince Cable not make this announcement, why was it the

Chancellor? Let me say a few other things about this. If we are going

to secure the recovery, this year we have to make sure that businesses

start investing. We have got to get Roddick typically rising. An

increase in the minimum wage is something that needs to follow that.

We will not do it unless the low pay commission adviser as it is

important for the economy at this stage. Did you know the Chancellor

was coming out with that statement? I did not know he was going to say

something on that particular day. We have worked together on it in the

tragedy to see what the economic impact would be, and to emphasise

that it is the commission, which has credibility with business, trade

unions and government. It must not be a politically motivated increase.

So you did not know, and Vince Cable, and it is properly a matter

for him as the Business Secretary, he did not make the announcement? I

don't think that's right. I don't clear every word I say with him, I

don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before

it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We

were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing

the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been

lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty

way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they

don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are

there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,

our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven

you for ratting on tuition fees, and that was a broken promise that

didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition

fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought

up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we

delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't

forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut

income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting

money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible

because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the

Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through

looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made

sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree

to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest

in this country over the next 12 months. Speaking of Scotland, the

Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for

the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish

leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with

Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.

If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial

position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the

rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a

disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the

Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the

national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a

coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the

national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting

the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now

seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We

will see what happens in the 2015 election. I think we have a record

to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up

the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the

Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does

so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic

recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government

or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust

with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European

Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this

country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the

UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British

government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would

be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee

the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them

down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on

to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every

month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this

point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the

guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was

no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was

to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in

what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for

separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is

on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher

interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question

on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There

were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.

Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where

you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable

reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their

salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I

would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we

have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions...

I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there

can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though

ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its

balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get

twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different

position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS

hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at

what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could

be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a

bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS

has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris

Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies

every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this

as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair

Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what

happened to a criminal standard, that there is clear there has been

considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that

and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has

been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the

Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the

Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the

disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly. We

are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of

Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of

complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.

The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what

action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We

as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to

change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told

that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House

of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and

welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord

Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and

welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to

deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of

apology is totally unacceptable, and therefore we have to take steps if

that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard

should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not

forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the

end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I

hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override

Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The

failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the

stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is

totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord

Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a

ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC

who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has

followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the

standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence

he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and

responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here

is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows

there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for

something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished

report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should

apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the

Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by

the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an

inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he

opens himself to civil lawsuits. He says he is not going to do it. As a

Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,

you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if

there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported

Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be

made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there

now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic

things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper

inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper

report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from

this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris

Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits

are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be

advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough

enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the

answer to that. Generally governments are a bit

rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite

achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the

US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient

at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens

came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their

clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US

by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency

operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million

mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,

why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a

series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the

phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no

more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British

intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a

debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we

have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??

new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother

Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And

Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.

Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.

President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have

learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem

to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go

away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the

Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry

into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive

technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the

sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.

Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on

the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big

debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can

make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence

that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years

since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a

fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime

Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people

and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a

separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.

Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think

so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of

intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust

scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have

Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and

ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for

improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,

President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to

collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for

the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take

the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk

about the threat from terrorism, it is all about travesty. There are

several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are

actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in

the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have

been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.

Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It

is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce

that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two

different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not

get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if

you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end

not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the

committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on

7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look

at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did

you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a

hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie

capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular

basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some

of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did

you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to

get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we

had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write

letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet

and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up

with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal

framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google

and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.

In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in

the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are

secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different

door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We

need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The

final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and

Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not

the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for

the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to

have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to

both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday

Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of

the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!

Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. I've

been told by Unionist politicians that the UVF, the PUP Ali aren't

order are effectively one and the same thing in the city of Belfast. I

think it's very unhelpful at a critical stage for somebody to go

out and take the pin out of the grenade. I think we need a more

mature reflection on his part. I understand he is under pressure.

This time last week, things were perfectly polite, if not exactly

brimming over with positivity. Now it seems relationships between the

DUP and Sinn Fein have hit rock bottom. With the five party leaders

due to meet again on Tuesday, just how damaging is this latest war of

words between the First and Deputy First Ministers? Joining me are

David Ford, the Alliance Party leader, the Ulster Unionist leader,

Mike Nesbitt, and the leader of the SDLP, Alasdair McDonnell.

Plus, is it now time for the British and Irish governments to take

control of the process? I think it is an intervention, I think it will

be by both governments, and we are agreed this is something that both

governments will work together on. Joining me to discuss that and more

are Sheila Davidson and Steven McCaffery.

It's almost three weeks since the Haass talks broke up without

agreement. Despite that, the five main parties have continued to

discuss the potential for progress on the proposals. But has the row

between the DUP and Sinn Fein over comments made by the Deputy First

Minister cast doubt over any possible agreement? The leaders of

the three other parties are with me. You are all very welcome. Alistair

MacDonald, was Martin McGuinness right with what he said on Thursday

that the PUP, UVF and Orange Order are effectively the same? In my view

it was unhelpful. We are the delicate lace and there may be an

overlap but it was unhelpful to say it. Was it wrong? It was unhelpful.

There is overlap at times between some organisations as far as I know,

and may be more significant than elsewhere but it has not contributed

to the peace we are looking for here, which is moving forward, all

those negotiations over a number of months, progress has been made for

some return on that progress, we have to do whatever at party

political interests, we need to push this on towards implementation of

what has been agreed towards legislation where possible and

ultimately towards resolution of outstanding issues. People want hope

and prosperity and this instability means prosperity is difficult. And

the Orange Order and wider Unionist family have denied Martin

McGuinness's allegations. David Ford, any truth to you, the ring of

truth in what he said? He was talking about the issue of

membership which I am not sure it's relevant. What concerns me, when the

Department of Justice had a delegation from the camp at Twaddell

Avenue, he brought with a representative of the PUP and the

DUP and Ulster Unionists, and what worries me is that tie up similar to

the Unionist forum suggesting all Unison is together around

contentious issues, when it seems to me the aren't men I know in Antrim

see things differently. Martin McGuinness talked about that

triangular relationship being the case in Belfast specifically, not

Antrim. I accept that but it worries me to see those giving batting too

difficult elements within North and East Belfast. Might Nesbitt, your

party used to use the phrase inextricably linked referring to

Sinn Fein and the IRA. The PUP and UVF are in extra be linked, the

aren't order supports Twaddell Avenue, so does the PUP. You can see

how Martin McGuinness can connect the dots and put forward that

explanation. The UUP has members in Belfast who are members of the

Orange Order. They are not in the UVF or the PUP. We support human

rights and it is extraordinary the Justice Minister seems to have a

problem with political parties supporting human rights, which is

what Twaddell Avenue is about, and Dr Haass accepted that. The question

from me to Martin McGuinness is why he did that become a because on

Tuesday when he left the room, it was agreed that if anybody would do

any media, they would keep it short a realistic and positive and

concentrate on the fact we were meeting again. But he clearly came

on with the view he wanted to put forward on Thursday. He said that

four times. And it is an unsubstantiated rumour. If I said

leading Republicans said Martin McGuinness were still in the IRA,

the media would not be dancing to my tune. People would not go to him or

Gerry Kelly and asked, are you the guy who told Mike Nesbitt Martin

McGuinness were still in the IRA? This is unsubstantiated and it is

not professional or helpful. It is damaging. Why do you think you did

it? He must have known people would be uncomfortable. I have no idea,

but I will ask. We are at where we are at, and we have a chance here of

doing a final lap around an agreement, the Good Friday Agreement

got us 90% of the way but there are still some difficult issues that

need to be resolved. Richard Haass has brought us a long wait towards

resolution. We now know what the issues are, the cards are all face

up on the table. We don't need more torque, we need resolution and

decisions. I think people imagine it matters because the relationship

between the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, the leaders

of the two main parties, appear at an all-time low. Martin McGuinness

was not tricked into saying this, he clearly wanted to see it, and then

Robinson clearly and explicitly rebut that. Who is at 1:30am on

Friday morning so that relationship is critical. I think it is party

politics and that is shaping up towards an election. I understand it

suggested marking was a dictator. That needle is very destructive

inserts of situations. David Ford, it did possibly about both sides

preparing an election strategy in the knowledge this is going

nowhere? That may or may not be the case. I think the next meeting will

show if there is any chance of progress. People will find it

outrageous that after the effort put in by the team, and representatives,

the idea that the plug could be pulled when we have effectively

dealt with the majority of issues and there are real moral issues

about meeting the needs of victims, the idea we would pull the plug on

that and go nowhere for electoral purposes is pretty cynical. Might

Nesbitt, would you agree? I want a fairer deal across the issues of

parades and the past but Martin McGuinness has not made any easier

when he talks about St Patrick's Day being a deadline as if America is

trying to force something. The US consul said America cannot set a

deadline. It isn't formally setting a deadline, but he said he had a

sense America would like to see it wrapped up by Saint Patrick 's Day.

We would like to see it wrapped up tomorrow if possible, nor is it

helpful for Eamon Gilmore to say what you have just shown him saying.

He has acknowledged that flags and parades are effectively strand one

issues that are in turn will to the bus back to the affairs of Northern

Ireland's and it is not useful for Eamon Gilmore to make that sort of

statement. We will hear from him shortly. He made that comment in the

wider context of trying to get the whole process to move forward. I

will listen carefully to the interview that Yediot the Republic

has a role in flags and parades is not true, it is up to the five

parties to sort this out. But does he have a role in the whole process

to move it forward Chris the Irish Republic has a lot of answers to

bring forward in terms of dealing with the past in terms of collusion

and the rest. Alistair MacDonald, how do we move forward Chris like is

it up to the two governments. The five parties are struggling, we have

not been able to get an agreement which should have been made before

New Year's Eve, and if it is not possible to do locally, we need the

help of two governments and a bit of persuasion to get over the line. We

are living in a big brought world out there, the public demand is for

stability so we can help progress and children can have jobs and

education. It is a simple equation. David Ford, do you agree it is up

for the two governments to get in the driving seat? Lets see where we

can get first of. The five main parties did not achieve what was

needed. When we brought in the independent share, we made

significant progress. If people are willing to go out in this week to

identify how we made progress and how we look at the issues of parades

and flags, because the agreement says we can't agree and we have to.

If we get that, we don't need the outside help. Thank you for joining

me on the programme. Let's hear what my guests think. Listening to that,

the public relations executive Sheila Davidson and the journalist

Steven McCaffery. Steven, has that conversation helped nudge us forward

or taken us back with Mike? I am struck by the fact this conversation

has been going on 18 months and everything that has happened in the

intervening process was about putting politics in the driving

seat, and it seems like politics is going into a drift which leaves us

at the whim of events which is a dangerous place to be. Sheila, what

do you make of this bat that happened between the ministers? It

didn't look like an accident, it looked like Martin McGuinness wanted

to get something off his chest. Everyone understands that party

politicking in Northern Ireland is in process. People talk about

Sunningdale being for slowly earners and I don't thing we have learned

anything. This has been a constructive debate and I have

enjoyed listening to the leaders, but that is the kind of debate we

want to see in public. We don't want to see this sort of politicking. The

electorate is still intelligent and we need to stop playing to the

lowest common to nominate and understand there is a huge number of

people in Northern Ireland. Steven has pointed this out recently. The

divisions are getting lower and lower but there is still a lot of

people not on the electoral register. The job of every

politician is to get re-elected. What we need to do is understand we

have a democratic part of this process. We need to vote and when we

get onto the electoral register, we will give our politicians the

mandate to speak sensibly, to speak in terms of what everyone wants and

not late to the lowest common to dominate. Steven, what about the

relationship between Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness? One way of

looking at it is that the end of last week has done huge damage to

the process and hasn't helped us at all. The other is that they have got

off their chest, they have let off steam, said what they wanted to say,

and going into Tuesday, it could be more productive. The worrying thing

is that we are looking toward St Patrick's Day and help from the

Americans, which is a positive thing, but a lot could happen before

then. The more fundamental question is where are the British and Irish

governments? They have been entirely absent, we are now 18 months into

this crisis and I don't think the people of Dublin or London would be

asked to put up with what the people of Belfast have over these

governments with the two governments deciding what they may or may not

do. We will come back to you both later on the programme. The Irish

bluster for Foreign Affairs says if necessary there will be -- The Irish

Minister for Foreign Affairs says if necessary, there will be joint

intervention by the Irish and British governments to get the

parties to agree a way forward on the Haass proposals.

With relationships between Sinn Fein and the DUP at an all-time low, our

political editor, Mark Devenport, asked Eamon Gilmore what he thinks

is needed to get the parties to take the next step forward. I believe

there is a responsibility on political leadership to respond to

the wishes of the public that these issues are resolved and agreement is

reached among the political parties to deal with these issues. Dr Haass

and Doctor O Sullivan produced a fine draft on New Year's Eve. I

hoped that would be accepted and that it would be and is a model, but

I believe there is a responsibility on the political parties to reach an

agreement on the way forward so Northern Ireland can progress and

its people can engage in normal economic and business activity,

create jobs and ensure the place prospers. Given that Unionists

wouldn't agree to those final proposals, isn't it an inevitable

they will have to be renegotiated? I don't think so. I think there is an

issue over the next steps here. I am encouraged parties have met this

week and will meet again next, and both the British and Irish

governments are keeping in close contact with the political leaders

and those discussions. We support and encourage them to try to reach

an agreement. We are available to provide any help we can to them, and

we will fulfil our obligations as co-directors of the agreements. But

there haven't been pre-agreements where the governments were either at

the table and able to administer a stick or wave a carrot in front of

the parties. One good thing about this process is that it began in

Northern Ireland among the parties, it was the ministers of the Northern

Ireland Executive who invited Dr Haass and Doctor O Sullivan to

charities talks. The two governments were guarantors, we have been in

close contact with the parties and we have been in contact with Dr

Haass as well. Why should the two parties be able to make progress on

their own when they weren't able to make it with the assistance of Dr

Haass? Political parties have a range of jurisdictions to make

agreements. That is the process of politics, that is what needs to

happen. The issues at stake are issues within Northern Ireland, the

flanks protests takes place within Northern Ireland, the parades take

place on the streets of Northern Ireland and the issues related to

the past are mainly in Northern Ireland. There are responsibilities

that both governments have relating to these issues and we will fulfil

those, but the primary agreement must be among the political parties.

They will have the support of the Irish government and I know from my

discussions with Theresa Villiers that they will have the support of

the British government. Theresa Villiers has offered to chair talks.

Martin McGuinness says he does not favour that although Peter Robinson

said he would favour it, so is there a role for both governments to make

some joint intervention? I think if there is an intervention it will be

an intervention by both elements together. We are agreed that this is

something that both governments will work together on. If necessary we

will have to do that, but I hope that it will be possible that the

political parties in Northern Ireland will be able to reach

agreement among themselves. I think that that's appropriate, because

these are issues that have to be resolved in Northern Ireland. But

the two governments are determined that we should not allow these

issues to drift Tom I don't think there is a very long period of time

within which this can continue. I think the rays urgency about getting

these issues resolved and making sure 2014 is a year in which

Northern Ireland moves forward. It has emerged that Joe Biden made a

phone call to Peter Robinson to try to push towards agreement and Martin

McGuinness is now talking about Saint Patrick 's Day as the next

deadline. What do you believe is the real role now for the US? I know

from our own discussions with the US administration and I have had the

chance over the past period to discuss these issues with Vice

President Biden and Secretary of State Kerry and President Obama, and

we have kept in close contact through our embassy in Washington

with the US administration and the US Embassy in Dublin has also kept

in close contact with us. I know the US is interested to see this issue

resolved and I think that is important because there is an issue

of reputation, investment, the creation of jobs and all that goes

with it depends on these issues being resolved and Northern Ireland

being seen internationally as a good place to invest.

The Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Eamon Gilmore,

speaking to Mark Devenport. Sheila Davidson and they wouldn't -- and

Steven McCaffery are still with me. It didn't look like he has a huge

desire to get involved too quickly. It is up to local parties. I don't

think either government has any agenda to get involved and that is

probably right. I think it is time for our local parties to step up. We

have been to endless processes and deadlines but now is the time for

them to show what they are made of. Some of the biggest additions have

already been made and we understand that, some of the biggest sacrifices

have been made, and this is about getting us over the line and it

shouldn't be a problem. There was talk of the Irish government being

involved in Stroud one. I don't think we could accuse either

government of rushing into anything. Earlier are reasonably is suggested

getting involved with the Haass proposals -- Behar stalks, but for

how long have we been waiting for in involvement and it still goes on.

Let's pause and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds, with Gareth

Gordon. Controversial views on his successor

from the former DUP leader. It should not have been done. I think

he thought there was going to be a tremendous uprising as a result of

it. Peter Robinson begged to differ. If we are going to have interviews

about the past, it is better to have them when they are fresh in people

's minds. Martin McGuinness's claimed that progressive loyalism

and the UVF or link did not go down well. The attempt to distract from

the Sinn Fein's glorification of past terrorist crimes. He repeated

the allegation. They rigged -- they agree with my analysis. In Belfast,

the PUP, the UVF and the Orange Order are one and the same thing.

And could the Teletubbies change attitudes in North Korea? They could

according to MLA Jim Shannon. Just a final word. Steven, looking

ahead to that pays the documentary, a lot of anticipation. He seems very

focused on making it about Peter Robinson and the current DUP so we

will have to see how that wrestling match works out. Worth watching?

Yes, some insights into what happened and questions about what

Ian Paisley said at his time at the departure and what he is saying now.

Regardless of what people are saying about the rightness or wrongness of

his recollections, getting them on record is well worth it. A lot of

people say it is about rewriting history. History is always being

rewritten and it is in houses being built by the mayor.

Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last

night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny

Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving

competition show, here she is in action.

APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to

campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much

rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and

control it. That looked painful. Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted

off the show last night but what about the verdict that really

matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael

Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out

of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a

local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good

sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your

swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the

spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.

Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in

asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a

goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should

she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these

problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising

money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about

it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your

programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare

time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for

Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we

going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury

does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth

has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in

a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There

are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My

job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure

that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more

broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal

seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats

everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince

Cable and I have been working together for the issues that

Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have

the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is

coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have

been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers

for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is

properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this

challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul

faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay

you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC

covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.

She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do

this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for

Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not

have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we

have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?

Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the

north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.

The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this

morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual

competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour

government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by

the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,

setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can

ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to

see Labour going into the next election as the party of

competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed

working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with

those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I

thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the

party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of

these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy

sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about

his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,

the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is

the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with

the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder

competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed

Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be

the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state

intervention? -- broken markets. Exactly, and it is state

intervention that does not work. There is a proud tradition in

government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a

century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and

obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is

entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free

current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western

countries. In the energy sector, our bills are not outlandish they high.

It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable. He

has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these

monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention, but

about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual

Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.

He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of

the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting

debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,

the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are

seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies

competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller

companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six

energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the

Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign

policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme

candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that

may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is

these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the

Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went

in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a

repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The

instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not

to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not

ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall

be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it? It

is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay

marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded

retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think

he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots

of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting

with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several

layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is

saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called

the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the

party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is

left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP

because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it

turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their

mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a

protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people

saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.

But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.

I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.

There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a

new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest

party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in

European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe

and give people a proper choice, the first referendum in over 40 years.

Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad

to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably

a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives

will understand that this is the only party that can secure European

reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever

happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost

run out of time. We will see this week of Chris

run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party

whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the

common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns

up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at

the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,

they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a

legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily

Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again

next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

shocking set of statistics. In some British South Asian communities,

women carrying girl babies are more likely to terminate their

pregnancies if they already have a daughter. In England and Wales, up

to 4,700 females were lost in this way. Such is the pressure to deliver

sons that these women preferred to have an abortion than face the

consequence of disappointing their husband and his