Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
done" - we'll speak to him and the party's | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
And coming up here - as the deadline for a Stormont deal | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
looms large, we talk to an upbeat Alliance leader about her party's | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
election performance and a possible place at the Executive table. | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:04. | :02:04. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:17. | :05:27. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:15. | :06:23. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:39. | :07:40. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:27. | :11:34. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:10. | :12:18. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:04. | :15:05. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:01. | :16:09. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:38. | :16:46. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:03. | :18:14. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:03. | :21:19. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:23. | :21:24. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:51. | :23:01. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:21. | :24:31. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:24. | :25:25. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:29. | :25:29. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:21. | :26:22. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:39. | :27:40. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:14. | :28:21. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:45. | :29:00. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:25. | :30:34. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:11. | :31:27. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:28. | :31:28. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :32:59. | :33:06. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa Andrew. You knew a few months ago | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50 | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open, | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union, | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away, | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans, | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
much. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics | :38:37. | :38:51. | |
in Northern Ireland. In the week that one of the biggest | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
figures in Irish politics was laid to rest, the talks to restore | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
devolution at Stormont continued. But with only hours left before | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
the deadline expires, We put that to Naomi | :39:01. | :39:02. | |
Long, the leader of Alliance, the only party to both | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
hold its seats and increase its share of the vote in | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
the recent election. And we will ask, if there was indeed | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
an 11th hour agreement, what role might Alliance take up | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
in the new devolved arrangements? And guiding us through the past week | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
and a critical next few days, Professor Deirdre Heenan | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
and columnist Newton Emerson. The Alliance Party had | :39:25. | :39:32. | |
its best election in years, Yesterday in her first | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
conference speech as leader, Naomi Long said it's now time to get | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
a functioning Executive in place and claimed another | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
Assembly Election This report from our political | :39:43. | :39:43. | |
correspondent Gareth Gordon. This man knows how to take a small | :39:44. | :39:59. | |
team to big success. Lars Lagerback managed Iceland to the quarterfinals | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
of the European Championships. Now he is in charge of Norway. Staying | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
at the same hotel, the Alliance Party chose to stage its annual | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
conference. An omen? This woman will certainly hope so. Naomi Long now | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
performs the manager's role for Alliance and the early signs are | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
good. So good, this former elected representative has decided to come | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
back after leaving the party many years ago. I think we can see from | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
the election results, we can see new membership that the party has got, | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
the revitalisation, the increased number of Emma Lanes over the number | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
of years, the fact that the party is getting votes in places like South | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
down and in others across Northern Ireland, reconnecting outside | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
Belfast. This is Patrick Brown, who came close to delivering the party's | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
first ever assembly seat in South down. So what is the secret? Knock | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
some more doors, when in some or elections, talk to as many people as | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
possible. The alliance does register, South down is an alliance | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
constituency waiting to happen and there are others like it across | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
Northern Ireland, like Wester run. North Belfast, had a fantastic | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
result. So many places, places you never expected Alliance to do well, | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
the vote increasing dramatically, like Upper Bann. Michael and | :41:34. | :41:35. | |
Christine Barker as councillors after their home in Bangor was | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
attacked two years ago during the flight protests. Has it been worth | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
all of the tough times? Definitely. We are still members, as well. We | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
feel very strongly that the Alliance Party has a position here and there | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
is a lot of work to be done. It is a very diverse country. If there is a | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
deal to restore the Stormont institutions, should Alliance go | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
back into the executive? If it is back to the same on Sinn Fein and | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
DUP doing a deal and not giving the other parties in executive respect | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
then I don't think the party be there, but our electorate, the | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
broader nonsectarian electorate needs to be treated properly. It | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
cannot be a game between the hardline nationalists and hardline | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
unionist parties. Alliance has had its best election result in decades. | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
But political negotiations going on not far from here will determine | :42:34. | :42:35. | |
soon if it was all in vain. You're the new captain of the ship, | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
and so far, so good. But the Alliance Party is a small | :42:39. | :42:50. | |
vessel in heavy seas. If you know where you are headed and | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
you have a strong vessel and strong direction you will still get to | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
where you are going. That is better than being a rudderless ship without | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
the captain. We know what we are about, what we stand for and what we | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
want to achieve. And we are very determined. I think the future is | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
very bright for Alliance and through the work that we are doing, trying | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
to create a better future for Northern Ireland, because ultimately | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
politics is not about the parties but the people they represent. If | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
there is another election in a few weeks, you could find the rug pulled | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
from under your feet. There is no room for complacency. There is no | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
complacency at Alliance. Elections are about getting out there went | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
knocking on doors. I was clear to tell people yesterday that whether | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
there was an election or not there will be won in two years' time and | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
that there's two years we need to spend out talking to people and | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
getting the message across. There is no room for laziness or complacency | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
in politics. Whether there is an election in a number of weeks or in | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
two years' time, Alliance will still be on the doorsteps. You kept your | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
vote share up as was your first preference total, but there is a | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
sense that the middle ground is under serious pressure at the moment | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
and the parties at opposite ends of the spectrum are digging in. They | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
are certainly digging in but we don't feel under pressure. Talking | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
to people, the fact that we are offering a positive alternative to | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
that digging in his resonating with the public. The other parties that | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
occupy the centre ground are feeling and under pressure and that might | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
because there are offering is less contrasted and clear with those who | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
are digging in. That is something they need to address, but in terms | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
of Alliance, people see us as an alternative to that and our position | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
is in some way strengthened when people harden their line. I don't | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
want to see people digging in. We have a role as a party in creating | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
space for people to come out of those entrenched positions. That is | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
what we have been doing in talks and that is what we will continue to do | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
over the next 24 hours. Is your mandate to be in opposition or in | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
government, holding the government to account? It is to make sure that | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
the good services and good relations, good prospects and that | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
we showed good leadership. That is our mandate. That is what we go to | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
the public with and that is what we want to do. Is that for others to do | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
all for you to be part of delivering it? We will be part of delivering it | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
anyway. If there is agreement, much of that agreement will have our | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
fingerprints on it. If there is an agreement, we have contributed to it | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
and we will continue to do so over the next 24 hours. Whether we end up | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
in government or opposition, we still want to facilitate government, | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
we want it to happen. If we end up in opposition will take the same | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
approach we did last time round. We will be constructive on government | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
delivering, we will support them on that, and we were clear about that | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
yesterday on health, we believe that political posturing around health is | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
detrimental. When they are failing, we will hold them to account. And if | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
we are in government it will be to raise the standards of that | :46:10. | :46:11. | |
government and to ensure that we deliver for the people. We have a | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
mandate to do either. What we now need to see is whether we have the | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
opportunity and quality of government and that we are part of | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
that. Would you like to be part of government if the situation arises | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
that the devolution project gets back up and running again? The | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
Alliance Party isn't entitled as of right to a position in the | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
executive. You could be part of the official opposition but you could, | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
because of the twists and turns of the system, you could be offered | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
Justice. Would you take it this time round? You've asked two questions. | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
You asked who would like to be in government, and the answer is yes. | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
If any party doesn't want to be in government there is something wrong | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
with their ambitions. The other is a different question. If there is a | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
government formed on Monday and I think that is a receding prospect, | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
will it be the kind of government that we can be part of? That is a | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
separate conversation. We are not willing to go into any government, a | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
government that is a patch up and repair and when it hits a bump in | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
the road in some months, the wheels will come off and we are back in | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
another crisis. We will not go into a government that is a carve up | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
between two communities, not recognising the diversity of | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
Northern Ireland. We have been clear about that. If other parties want is | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
to join them in government, we know that we are willing to be in there | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
making a difference and if they want us to be in there, there are issues | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
to address and we will facilitate that. We are not sitting back and | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
resting on our laurels, regardless. Talks will continue and we are being | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
constructive in that process. You have a 5-point plan and it was not | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
met last time round which is why did not take the Justice ministry. Will | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
you hold fast to that this time? Critics would say that's a case of | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
the tail-wagging the dog. You cannot dictate to the other parties on | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
legacy paramilitary issues, you can have an opinion but they do not have | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
to take on board your opinion. But we don't have to go into government | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
with them, if they don't. I'll you're setting the bar too high for | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
yourselves. If anyone thinks we are setting the bar high by saying that | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
paramilitaries has two end and government must be transparent, we | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
have to deal with division in society, people see that as a high | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
bar... And where did they end up eight months later? Do you think | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
they have learned that lesson? I am not sure that people learn lessons | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
and politics in Northern Ireland, because we seem to keep repeating | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
the same mistakes. The reality is that if that is a high bar, then the | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
executive will not work for Northern Ireland. What we asked for was | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
respect from other parties in government, we ask that they would | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
deliver around are more tourism and legacy. We are 18 years past the | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
Good Friday agreement, still talking about active paramilitaries in our | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
communities. I can't understand why people would not want to deal with | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
that. If people are willing to work on these issues we are willing to | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
work with them. These are not demands, these are necessities for | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
government to function well. What about that or studying party led by | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
Robin Swann? He might be seen as morally traditional Unionist than | :49:27. | :49:28. | |
the outgoing leader, Mike Nesbitt? I am not going to prejudge the | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
leadership of Robin Swann but I will say this, the problem with the | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
Ulster Unionist Party is not who reads it, it is that it is | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
increasingly seen as unliveable. And the party, is under some challenge | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
event terms of trying to find some coherence. They should find some | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
coherence around direction. They seem to be an extremely loose | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
coalition of people. Would you like to see that party broken with the | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
hardliners going to the DUP, and the soft underbelly moving to Alliance? | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
Is that what you're saying? I would not like Alliance to be seen as the | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
soft underbelly of anything. One minute we are told we're being too | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
ambitious, the next minute, we are soft, and he cannot be both. We are | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
ambitious to see reform in Northern Ireland. There are people among the | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
Ulster Unionist Party who might find a more comfortable home for them | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
would be a more liberal, progressive vehicle. We have seen many people | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
who were in the Ulster Unionist Party move to Alliance and we have | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
seen people who were in the STL PA and became disillusioned moving to | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
Alliance because what they wanted to see was a more progressive and | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
stronger leadership and direction. Let me ask you about the funeral of | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
Martin McGuinness on Thursday. You were there, representing your party. | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
We know about the reception that Arlene Foster got when she entered | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
the church and when Bill Clinton mentioned her in his speech. Did you | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
feel comfortable there are? I would have felt uncomfortable not being | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
there. I grew up in the 70s and 80s. I have no illusions about what the | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
IRA campaign did in our community. And I have no illusions about the | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
broken society that he was born into. It doesn't justify it but I | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
understand it. But I have to look at the man I knew who was in the | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
assembly, who held the line with what you could not describe as | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
pushover unionism and made the SMB work for ten years. I was glad I was | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
able to attend and pay my respects to the family. What is more | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
important now is that we listen to what Bill Clinton said. He was very | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
clear when he said finish the work, and that is what we need to do, | :51:45. | :51:45. | |
beginning this weekend. Let's now turn to our guests | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
for their thoughts. Deirdre, what is your reaction to | :51:52. | :52:00. | |
what Naomi Long had to say about the position of the Alliance Party and | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
whether or not it would wish to go back into the executive? What is | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
clear from what she has said is that we know little about what is going | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
on in terms of the talks, we don't know whether they are going to be in | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
government or opposition. I don't think she is playing her chest. It | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
is a position of no-man's-land where we don't know what is going on in | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
terms of the talks. That does not appear to be any momentum around the | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
talks, any real push towards getting the government up and running again. | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
Although that might be wrong. I think the issue for Naomi Long is | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
that she's in the middle ground and it is beginning to be cluttered, and | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
she has to work out what her particular ideology is and how she | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
can things different. It is possible that they could take -- overtake the | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
Ulster Unionists in terms of size and proportion, and that is good | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
news, but they have to set out what their underlying political | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
ideologies. It has all been an issue for the Alliance Party to move out | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
beyond the leafy suburbs of Belfast and make themselves relevant, West | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
of the Bann. If they are to be a political force it has to be outside | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
of the greater Belfast area. In terms of the Alliance Party setting | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
out its stall and Naomi Long redefining what the party stands for | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
and where it is going, so far, is it fair to say job well done? Yes, in | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
terms of positioning but that is not going to work with Sinn Fein and the | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
DUP this time around. It was quite surprising after last year was my | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
collection, we assumed that they would be offered the Justice role, | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
they seem suitable for it,... Did they overplay their hand? They were | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
almost laughed out of court by the DUP and Sinn Fein and that was quite | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
surprising, especially as Sinn Fein and the DUP were committed and keen | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
to work together to form these could ever that point. This time around | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
Sinn Fein seems quite ambivalent about it. There is very little | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
leveraged therefore Alliance to use. I think they garnered some respect | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
by not taking the Justice ministry. It would be the easy option to take | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
it, but you said we are not taking it, we're not happy with what is | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
being proposed. That is exactly what happened. We actually turned it | :54:29. | :54:37. | |
down. I have to correct that. We walked out of the talks and said | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
that we would not be returning unless they were willing to do the | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
deal. It was our decision, not theirs. I agree with what you said. | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
They probably did overplay their hand and they didn't have the | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
mandate to ask for the things they asked for, but they were right in | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
saying, we will turn this down. There has to be a point at which you | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
say, no, I did want to be part of this. I want to move on and talk | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
about Robin Swann. Looks like he's about to be crowned the new leader | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
of the Ulster Unionist Party, the only candidate ahead of April the | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
8th when that decision will be taken. Can you turn around the | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
Ulster Unionist? It is a huge challenge for him. It probably is | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
good news for the Alliance. He is more of a traditionalist. He would | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
not be a progressive. He says it's about promoting positive unionism, | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
he once a nonthreatening unionism that can move forward and be | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
progressive. Going back to my earlier point, that middle ground is | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
now a crowded space. Why would you vote for one and not the other? He | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
has a difficult job to put together the Ulster Unionist Party. The | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
Ulster Unionist Party needs to pick a direction and go down it. As the | :55:51. | :55:58. | |
deadline to do a deal at Stormont approaches, the negotiators at | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
Stormont Castle now have some words of encouragement to mull over. The | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had a message for them, as did Bill | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
Clinton. I managed to get a few moments with both men at Mark | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
McGuinness' funeral on Thursday. This is what they had to say. Why | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
was it important to be here today? We spent a lot of time together when | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
I was president. And I wanted to honour him for what he did. The | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
changes from war to peace. And to emphasise that it is one thing to | :56:34. | :56:44. | |
make peace, another to it work. You have to nurture it all the time and | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
care for it. And I think, always, people who justifiably respect the | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
fact that he changed from war to peace need to recommit themselves to | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
finish the work that needs to be done. Are you optimistic that | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
outstanding issues can be resolved? I am, actually. I'm not directly | :57:04. | :57:11. | |
involved, but I do understand these issues inside out. To be frank, | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
there are not many issues to be resolved. I think what is necessary | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
is to resolve is that everyone is committed wholeheartedly, 100% | :57:26. | :57:27. | |
committed to the implementation of all those points. There are maybe | :57:28. | :57:39. | |
one or two issues around current issues, but in the scale of things, | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
these are not insurmountable. So I am positive. What are the | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
alternatives? Direct rule? Another election? | :57:53. | :58:02. | |
The next thing is, do it. Bill Clinton and Bertie Ahern talking to | :58:03. | :58:13. | |
me on Thursday. We heard Bertie Ahern saying, just do it. Can they? | :58:14. | :58:21. | |
If they could have an agreement to disagree or schedule for agreement | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
at Sinn Fein says it is not prepared to do business like that any more so | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
the type of deal laid one certainly isn't possible by tomorrow. It means | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
to be by lunchtime tomorrow to allow everything else to happen by four | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
o'clock. The chances are possibly rather than probably. I would say, | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
slim. What she said in her speech is important. It is not just about | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
getting institutions up and running and going back to devolution. Most | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
people say, we need devolution that works, we cannot have this stop - | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
start. That means addressing the issues, like the issue of legacy. | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
What has become clear this week if it was not clear before is that many | :59:01. | :59:09. | |
victims and survivors are living with pain on a daily basis. It is | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
not historic for them. We have a duty to try and address it in some | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
way. Different people have different ideas about what truth looks like. | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
We have to have some agreement about how to address the past. You get the | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
sense that while Sinn Fein might have the whip hand over the DUP at | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
the moment, there is always a danger of that hand being applied? I don't | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
see how Sinn Fein can get everything at once. It is a very strong | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
negotiating position but to ask for the delivery of every loose end and | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
for that all to be tied up immediately just seems like an | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
impossible task. The detailed work could not be done in time available | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
so there was going to have to be some give. Sinn Fein has put itself | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
in a position of such absolutism in delivery that it is going to look | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
like a climb-down, whatever it does. We would discussing on Thursday | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
night whether the appearance of Arlene Foster at the funeral was a | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
game changer, or maybe more of a mood changer. The reaction to Arlene | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
Foster was incredible. And it should change the mood. You would hope | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
after that, and the handshake, that both woman would be able to get into | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
the room and have a discussion about what the future looks like. All the | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
DUP seem to be asking for is for devolution to be back up and running | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
whereas Sinn Fein have this list that they have put forward and said | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
that these things have to happen. It is hugely unlikely that all of those | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
ends could be tied up. But I think we could get some form of agreement, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
that they need more room to talk and we could have a period of talks, and | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
then go back and do those deals. That is possible because James | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Brokenshire has theoretically set on the tracks for another election if | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
we don't hit the deadline 4pm on Monday. He has to call an election | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
within a reasonable time period. That could be anything between four | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
and eight weeks. It can take a reasonable length of time to the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
call. That is what the case now requires. So he does have | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
flexibility but it is a legal requirement. Sinn Fein has said no | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
wriggling on it is acceptable. And we must add the point of Conor | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Murphy after the funeral. Direction to Arlene Foster's attenders, it was | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
perfectly reasonable to expect someone who worked with Mark | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
McGuinness for ten years to pay her respects, it might have changed the | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
mood in the church but maybe not the talks because it is a far bigger | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
deal than that. Thank you very much indeed for joining us today. | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you. | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday | :01:54. | :02:10. | |
at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion - | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat, | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday, | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
will trigger Article 50, formally starting | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
made an appeal for unity at the gathering. | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors. | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds, | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on | :02:57. | :03:15. | |
that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years, | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent. | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that | :04:10. | :04:27. | |
doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member | :04:32. | :04:33. | |
states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification | :04:47. | :04:48. | |
process, people looking at this would think it is Mission: | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well, | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me! | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements? | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
which could really result in a change of Government... That is the | :06:38. | :06:50. | |
big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see, | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form | :07:50. | :08:02. | |
a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU | :09:32. | :09:43. | |
march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be, | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean. | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free | :10:56. | :11:14. | |
movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course | :12:17. | :12:18. | |
those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
everywhere else where there are British citizens would have | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always. | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
night from Birmingham - with guests including | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer, | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond - | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One. | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's | :13:33. | :13:36. |