30/09/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

SPEAKER: WHITE And same-sex marriage, the parties in the

assembly are hopelessly divide on it. So is from any point in

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2117 seconds

Welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. It is one of the

most controversial issues of the moment, whether or not people of

the same sex should be allowed to get married. Tomorrow a joint

motion in support of the move will be debated in the assembly, but the

local parties are hopelessly split on the issue, so there is little

chance of consensus. With me is the Green Party's Steven Agnew. Plus

tens of thousands on the streets of Belfast to commemorate the signing

of the Ulster covenant. Is this a blueprint for future

Now gay marriage is rarely out of the news these days and there is no

shortage of controversy surrounding the idea here and the rest of the

UK. The views of the veteran Ulster unionist on the subject led to his

departure from the party. It is up for debate in the assembly tomorrow.

Sinn Fein and the Green Party have brought the motion in support of it.

Steven Agnew the leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland is

with me now. Hello. Thank you for joining us on the politics

programme. Tell me why you think that it is worth the assembly's

time to be debating an issue, which frankly you are unlikely to get

through? I think it is important we do have the debate. For example we

have the Prime Minister of the UK, the leader of the Tory party able

to say he can support equal marriage but in Northern Ireland we

haven't had the debate in the assembly chamber, the chamber

decide that the legislation on this issue. We have several partnerships

but civil partnerships are not equal to marriage and they are

separate. We talked about a shared future. We want the shared future

for everyone and not this idea of separate but equal. Currently, if

you are in a civil partnership you can't adopt in Northern Ireland,

although you can in England, Scotland and Wales and if you are a

religious couple, you can't get, have any form of religious ceremony,

even if there is a church willing to do so. So the churches are

barred from performing civil partnerships or same-sex marriage

by the lausm we any is an issue of religious freedom. A couple who of

mixed sex can have a religious wed wuing two devout Christians can't

have a religious ceremony in a same sex relationship. There are those

within the gay community who feel it has gone far enough and there

are people from that community who would say gay marriage, we don't

need. That is up for those to decide, this is an issue of

religious freedom and freedom of conscience, if we passed this

legislation, if the motion were to pass and be followed by legislation,

we would have the situation where people would have choice, people in

same sex relationship would have the choice to get married. Churches

would have the choice about whether or not they would allow same sex

couples to have religious ceremonies. It is some timeed

perceived the church is against it, there are groups such as Changing

Attitudes who want to see equal marriage. I spoke to a Reverend who

would like to perform same-sex marriage. So it, there are various

views within the religious institution. Do you know how many

couples would be affected? Can you put a figure on it? We have about

100 couples perform civil partner - - partnerships. 650 I think since

the legislation. So tiny? It is not about numbers. It is about civil

rights and equality. We have homophobia priv lent in society and

the state should send a message that same sex couples are equal to

couples of different sex. It is the substance of marriage, the

commitment and love that is important, not the form, that is

the gender. The difficulty is when you take this to the floor of the

assembly tomorrow, you are not going to get agreement, because

there is a huge amount of division. I will get your thoughts on that in

a moment. Let us remind ourself of what Jonathan Bell had to say. He

talked about it on the floor of the assembly just last week. There are

no plans to change the definition of marriage in Northern Ireland. To

do so, as members would know, would require the agreement of the

executive, and parties on the executive are hopelessly divided in

ters of a position in relation to that. The DUP is clear they see gay

marriage as an oxy moron, to they see marriage between a man and a

woman, the Alliance Party and Sinn Fein are united in their position

of support for gay marriage, and if you want to hear both sides of the

argument you can ask Mike Nesbitt and Alistair MacDonald. The SDLP

and the Ulster Unionist do not have united fronts on the. On flid we

had a petition of concern placed by the DUP which means even if you get

a majority torges it will be overturned because you need cross

community support. Two points on that. One from speaking to the

other parties, this is going to be a close vote. Too close to call at

this stage, so the assembly is round 50-50 so it is not going to

be a clear majority against by any means but the petition of concern

has been abused. The petition legislation which put the petition

of concern in place was designed to protect minorities, from abuse of

the majority, and in this case the petition of concern is being used

to prevent the extension of rights to a minority group. That not what

it was for. They are entitled to use it. It is an abuse of the

system. In your view. The whole point of the petition of concern

was to stop one side of the House imposing its willing on the -- will

on the other side. We have people on both side support, people on

both sides against. It is not what the petition of concern was for.

What happens tomorrow is that you have potentially a heated debate on

the floor of the assembly chamber, and you allow people to restate

trenchant positions which perhaps doesn't move the debate on. We

might get a lot of heat tomorrow and very little light. How does

that help your case? We haven't had any signal from the body that can

legislate what its views are, we have never had a debate on this

issue. The body that legislates can't make up its mind, that is the

point. Half the assembly supports this, that means we can see how

much work is to do. You want to put down a marker, is that what you are

saying. We want to get it debated by the people who legislate. There

is all these polls out there, saying, X percent support it but we

need to know what the people who legislate think. The fact that

there's been pointed out some of the parties are split, is meaning

the conversation is taking place within the party, so it is taking

the issue forward, because people are discussing it. How will you

judge whether or not tomorrow's debate has been a success from your

point of view. What is your yard stick? It is a success because

within parties we are discussing that, that is a step forward. We

have a Conservative Prime Minister who is in favour of equal marriage,

we should at least be able to debate it in Northern Ireland. But

I think when we see the numbers n the assembly, it will give other

MLAs the strength to come out next time round, when they see the

amount of support there is for this. We will watch the debate with

interest. Thank you very much for coming in to join us. Tens of

thousands of people marched to Stormont yesterday to mark the

centenary of the signing of Ulster covenant. It was one of the biggest

parades in HIVing memory and involved one of the largest

policing operation in decade. A feeder parade path a Catholic

Church was trouble free. The signing of the covenant laid the

foundation for the partition of Ireland. 100 years on, unionist

leaders once again signed the covenant. It was a show of unity at

the start of a day rich in historical symbolism. But for a

modern day unionist leader, it was also an opportunity to look forward.

The context is very different today. We now see there is support from

the union across the unity. I believe we have to build on that,

encouraging people, whatever their backgrounds maybe, to give their

support and allegiance to the union. Outside the City Hall no-one could

question the allegiance of the thousands who gathered for the

march to Stormont. Among them many dressed in period costume.

Including Jackie MacDonald who led ranks of men dressed in the uniform

of the Ulster Defence Union. Members of the loyal orders from

England, Scotland and the Irish Republic took part in the six mile

procession. What is happening today is a celebration of a resistance,

to somebody taking away the identity you were born with, and

with which you were educated to be, feel a British citizen, part of the

United Kingdom, that is very important to the people here today

P There is a tremendous day to celebrate the centenary of the

Ulster covenant. Tremendous to see the crowds that are here. Very much

shows that Britishness is still alive in Northern Ireland today.

took five hours for everyone to reach Stormont, but once there, in

the shadow of Sir Edward Carson, a chance to buy some refreshment and

merchandise before a religious service. Today as Lord and

saviour... Not even welcomed the parade, a fact made obvious by the

heavy security presence. It was the biggest policing operation in the

city for 20 years P -- years. have seen a lot of people with

smiles on their face watching it and participating and people going

about their business. What we are seeing is a dignified parade and I

am grateful for that. I hope today will start something that next year

will turn into a peaceful July and August. There was relief that the

large numbers of police on duty did not have to deal with any disorder.

But questions will be raised in the days ahead about the conduct of

some band, which did not follow the parade commission's ruling. Only

sacred music was to be played outside two Catholic Church tons

route. This was largely followed at St Patricks on Donegal Street. The

same was not true at St Matthews on Outside saith math knews not just a

handful but it is safe to say most of the band taking part openly

defied the parade's commission, determination. What need to happen

is the PSNI need to bring a case to the PPS. The PSNI says it will

investigate any breeches but it welcomed the efforts of those be

signed the scenes to ensure this much anticipated parade passed off

peacefully. Alex Cane and Noel Doran with with me now. You were

watching the parade Alex, what did you make of it. I was up at

Stormont for three hour, it was bigger than anyone expected. And a

very good atmosphere, very relaxed it was like Orange heaven. They

could play what they want, say what they wanted. Very relaxed

atmosphere. Maybe that is the solution to the parading issue, to

go somewhere where there are not restrictions placed. That is true,

it is how you get them from A to B. One thing has come out of this,

after the kf orange admitted they changed the rules. They can't get

the next Easter or July 129 or next celebration and not have this sort

of thing, they need to be talking now, because I think the protestors

yesterday, they should be welcomed for what they did. They didn't

throw bricks or bottles. It was mostly peaceful. It was a two sided

peacefulness. Noel, are you relieved that it passed off as

peacefully and positively as it seemed to do? I think at Stormont,

everything but fine as Alex says, and there was a positive atmosphere.

There wasn't on the Newtonards Road which is really the big issue

coming out of yesterday's demonstration, the restrictions

were clear, it wasn't a small minority, it was a considerable

number of the band. This is in Peter Robinson's constituency. He

spoke for the need of the union to appeal across the community. There

was very much a message from some people to be pro-union was to be

anti-Catholic, that will have to be addressed by the Parades Commission

and senior politicians. How much further do you think it need to be

taken? Are we looking at evidence gathering and possible prosecution?

The focus as we heard from the report was St Matthew's church on

the Newtonards Road, that is the one remaining issue of contention.

There were some evidence of breaches in Donegal Street. On a

different level. At a very different level. We are conscious

the Orange Order took a positive step, that needs to be developed

and exploited. The rules were flaunted yesterday, people's noses

were rubbed in it on the lower Newtonards Road and it is not the

first time it has happened. The Parades Commission is to have

credibility that need to be addressed. How should the loyal

orders address that issue Alex? It is the one element of yesterday

that may spoil the party in the longer term. It is going to come

back and aunt them. When the Parades Commission have to review

next year's parades that I have to look back at what happened

yesterday. They will say to the Orange Order, the bands breached

the conditions we set down, we will have to put down different

conditions. It was a mistake, but the other problem is even if it

wasn't the parades economies, if any other body did it, I think will

will be band who breach any condition. What about the brorer

message that might be taken out of yesterday's events, are we seeing a

move to greater unionist uni -- unity. We saw them gather to sign

the covenant and talk about issues about being unionists together.

in terms of what Peter Robinson is saying there is a move, he sees the

council of the union, he wants them to work together. Yet, yesterday,

Mike Nesbitt, Peter Robinson not an Orangeman what unionist need to be

careful about, the celebration of the covenant an the Northern

Ireland seen tenry in a decade's time, they can't be seen as a

triumph of one side over the other. It has to be clocktive celebration.

If it isn't you are going to keep the us and them for ever. Do you

think nationalists will be concerned about the notion of

greater unionist unity if that is what comes out? If that happens it

happens. You could say that Peter Robinson may no longer sees the

Ulster Unionist as any form of threat and is happy to have them at

his shoulder rather than taking them on. We have seen unity in

different forms in the past. I doesn't tend to last that long T

Ulster Unionist has been through so many changes, it is difficult to

predict where it will be in a year or two's time. You might see joint

candidates in forthcoming by- elections, Mid Ulster people are

talking about. That is a slightly unusual one. Martin McGuinness has

confirmed he will stand down. He has confirmed that Sinn Fein will

be in field and I think we would look at the figure, we would expect

that Sinn Fein will be retaining that seat. Well, it depend if

others stand and split that vote. You don't think that is an issue.

don't think Mike Nesbitt can go into his first election as leader

of the Ulster Unionist Party party and not field a candidate. It is

clear some people have said other senior members of the MLA team have

told me and officers have said they want a Ulster Unionist candidate.

How does all of this set the tone for the decade to come? Noel has

referred ahead a little bit to what happens in a decade's time as far

as unionist commemorations are consense there are lots of others

that need to take place between now and then. Have we got off on as

good a footing as we might have hoped to? Yesterday was a good day,

but the unionist need to learn something from this. They need to

work out what they are celebrating. Are they celebrating the success of

Northern Ireland as a vibrant, economically strong collectively

co-operating society, because if they are not, I this they brings

its own problems. Do you think anyone from a non-unionist

background will have a greater understanding of what unionism is

about, what the marching culture is about? Seeing people in historical

garments, carrying paraphernalia, trying to touch the mood of what

happened 100 years ago, does that help the explanation? Or will that

wash over people? The pageantry was positive and fascinating, in other

respects it was open to par di. How far it moves the debate I am not

sure how far that will take us, looking at the spirit of the

covenant, that is fine, it's a crucial period in history and it

need to be explored. People will look at Carson's role and the way

he changed his views further down the line. Let us pause and look at

the political week in 60 seconds. Transport come naited the week with

claim nas the new bus lanes created chaos. This is not thought up

overnight. For many people stuck in traffic it seems like that. From

the bike to the car, like another Tory the new Secretary of State

revealed the day she got her job she cycled out of Downing Street.

The sath sad thing is that is the last time I was allowed to ride my

bike and I have been stuck in a bullet-proof car since. Special

advisers were in Jim McAllister's site. We face up to it or ignore it.

From the committee room to the ringside. MLAs came to blow tons

politics of boxing. And as he marked the seen renry of the

covenant Lord Band dvingsl side told us he is fighting fit. I don't

look like a sick man. -- Lord Bannside. Alex and Noel are still

with me. Noel, we got our first proper look at the new Secretary of

State on Thursday, what did you make of what she had to say? It is

early day, we are impressed with her bike riding ability. She got

special treatment! And better manners than some others.

Fascinating to look at her ancestry with the Earl of Clarendon and

others who had a pivotal road in -- role in Irish history. Clear rien

on corporation tax, she say she is will fly the flag. I am not sure it

was that clear. She said it was the Prime Minister's decision. It will

be the decision of the assembly. I think she gave a classic political

answer which all side will be happy with. The fact she got to ride her

bike out of the main gates of Downing Street, did that produce a

wry smile. No, I hate cyclist. If she is here to champion them I

won't be happy. Let us reflect Noel, for a moment or two on the debate

we had with Steven Agnew about gay marriage, that makes an appearance

on the floor of the assembly tomorrow. Helpful, useful or

potentially divisive? Hopefully we will have a mature debate and

people will have look ed at the contribution of Mary McAleese as

being helpful. We could have difficult moments tomorrow. The

measure won't go through. If the tone is right, I think that would

help. Alex? I don't think it will be a mature debate. The DUP have

vetoed it. This is the third week in a row we have had motions

brought to the assembly which are divietive, unionist, nationalist

debates which won't pass and I think there are more pressing

issues they can deal with with. Looking ahead to the week ahead, we

have the Labour Conference sh Northern Ireland featuring on the

agenda. No, faded into the background. That is not necessarily

a bad thing. I think the executive is going through a bad period.

There are some areas it is lacking in credibility. With shouldn't be

surprised. No, but it is worth remembering there will be a plucky

little band from the Northern Ireland Labour Party who have been