07/10/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


07/10/2012

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And coming up in Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland:

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Have local politicians left it too late to rebel against planned

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welfare changes? And does life experience count for anything any

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2124 seconds

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Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. As

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the Tories gather for their annual conference, their planned welfare

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changes hit the headlines here with the DUP accusing Sinn Fein of

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dropping a welfare bombshell. So, how far can local changes to the

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proposed legislation go? Joining me to discuss this is the SDLP MP Mark

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Durkan. Plus, the twenty-somethings taking some of the top jobs in

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politics here. PR consultant Sheila Davidson and commentator Paul

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McFadden will be joining me with their thoughts on all of that and

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The Prime Minister has defended the government's plans for welfare

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reform as deeply progressive and thoughtful. The controversial plans

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will no doubt be on the agenda at the Conservative Party conference

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which begins today in Birmingham. Locally, Sinn Fein has infuriated

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the DUP by calling for this week's debate on welfare to be deferred.

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We'll hear from Mark Durkan very shortly on what, if anything, can

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be done at this late stage. But first, our Political Reporter

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Stephen Walker joins me now live from Birmingham.

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How much do you think Northern Ireland is likely to feature on the

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agenda? I think it will be on the agenda, not just on the conference

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floor, but in the meetings taking place in and around the conference.

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Welfare reform very much so will be on the agenda. There of a series of

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events happening. The new Secretary of State will be giving her speech

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to the conference. On Wednesday, were the have David Cameron. There

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are rather a whole series of French events touching on Northern Ireland.

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On Tuesday, there is the now infamous Ulster fried breakfast

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where politicians from across Northern Ireland come together.

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Arriving tomorrow at the conference will be families and relatives who

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have been campaigning for a number of years to have an inquiry into

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the events of 1971 when 11 people were killed. They're calling on the

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Prime Minister to meet them and they're calling for a full inquiry.

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In an interview with the Prime Minister, I asked him if he would

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meet the families. I would have to look at my calendar and have much

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time I have to do all the different things. I understand the strength

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of feeling. Buzz about so many cases from the deeply troubled and

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difficult past of Northern Ireland. That is what the historical inquiry

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teams are about. I will look carefully at that. I hope there

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will be met on spoken with Andersen to Poplar, as we have done with all

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these cases. How much pressure do you think

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David Cameron will be under this week? I think there is quite a lot

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of pressure on him this week. He is getting advice by the bucket load.

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He has been pulled in a number of directions. Modernisers want him to

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show that the Conservatives are passionate, they are not the party

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of the rich and they actually care for people and they want to see new

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measures to help economic matters. And then he is being pulled by the

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traditionalists who want him to stand firm on issues like defence,

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law and order in Europe. He is getting lots of advice. The other

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thing he will be thinking about his last week, Ed Miliband had a very

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successful conference. His speech was well received in the press.

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Particularly in the Tory press. There is a lot of issues floating

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around the David Cameron smiled at the moment as he is writing a

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speech for Wednesday. You have had an opportunity to talk to the party

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faithful yesterday and today. It is the mood among delegates? To be

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fair, they have mixed emotions. Some people come here and see it as

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a social event. It is there an opportunity to catch up with people

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and get new ideas about the election and campaigning. Other

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people are coming here perhaps with the sense of trepidation. The

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Tories are behind in the opinion polls are they want to leave

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conference on Wednesday galvanised and enthused. They want David

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Cameron to me about this road map to explain where he wants to take

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Britain over the next few years and they want to leave this conference

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feeling enthused. Thank you very much.

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Well, Sinn Fein has put the cat among the pigeons by calling for

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this week's Assembly debate on the government's controversial Welfare

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Reform Bill to be deferred until significant amendments are made to

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it. The Bill is widely seen as the biggest change since the

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introduction of the welfare state, and so far, the government in

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Westminster has resisted all attempts to water it down, despite

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opposition, not least from many MPs. And one of them is with me now.

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Mark Durkan, can this Bill be improved by Sinn Fein's call for a

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deferral? I am not sure about the issue of

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the deferral as they are talking about it. They seem to be same

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deferred the bill, let somebody else make changes and then that the

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Assembly pass it. It seems to me to make this point that the Assembly

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isn't actually acting as the legislative Chamber that it should

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be acting as. It is Sinn Fein making the mistake. Leave

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everything to ministers and the discussions between ministers and

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Whitehall. The opportunity was there early this year when the SDLP

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proposed that the Assembly should give the Bill pre-legislative

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scrutiny. That might have actually influenced some of the been in

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Westminster, as well. It is quite complicated for people to get their

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heads around. There is the idea that MPs at Westminster are

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grappling with the issue of on a UK-wide basis, but we have got our

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local people trying to legislate. Is there a power struggle between

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two chambers are tottering to have the final word? It is not a power

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struggle. You can see how it looks like that. Absolutely. There is a

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serious process difficulty here. The way to resolve that is to make

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sure that the Assembly can have its input far earlier rather than

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leaving the Assembly waiting to pick up the bill as passed by

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Westminster and just go through this exercise that we can use

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Durham accent, but we have to stick to the actual words that has been

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laid down by my tour is wrong. People wanted pre-legislative

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scrutiny. We have to make sure that we can have as much influence as

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possible. One of the reasons we wanted that was to make sure we got

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more discretion. There is party and I do not pretend 21 that we can

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likely Becker parity and nobody should. It could cost a fortune.

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could. A lot of people's benefits to rest on that. If we become

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slaves to parity at which do not give us the measures we need to

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have, such as in housing, the hall implications of that tax. That is

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wrong in any part of the UK. It becomes community and politically

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sensitive in Northern Ireland. If you start telling people in certain

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communities, you should not be in that House, you should move

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elsewhere, you end up with demographic, Geographic sectarian

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sensitivities are none of that. Whether it is in north Belfast or

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other places. There are particular issues here that it be thought but

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when it comes to whether run not these changes are wearable and

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bearable for the Assembly. obviously the driver as far as the

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Tories are concerned is to make sure that the taxpayer gets value-

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for-money. That means the people most in need have the most

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available resources available to them. If you have got a couple

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living in a four-bedroomed House, it might cost as -- it might not be

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the best use of public resources to support that. But the tax is a

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crude way of dealing with that, particularly if the consequence of

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that as well as telling social landlords in future, you will have

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to design your supply of housing stock according to benefit rules

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because there were people who cannot afford to take the housing

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stock that is there. It is not valid for money either for the

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taxpayer nor does it make sense for those who need those benefits.

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is one example. There are lots of other issues we can talk about.

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What you think happens when this issue is do you to be discussed

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this week? I know why you would like us to be, but we're not there.

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But we actually go? There are some issues around delivery where more

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insurance need to be given. We met with Lord fight back in February

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and he told us that there would be no problem to make sure that the

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direct payment of housing benefit could go to landlords. They would

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make sure that the computer system could accommodate Northern Ireland

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doing it differently. But those aren't parity issues. There seems

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to be a problem now. Of the Assembly had directly taking its

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hands on those issues in the spring a we wanted it to, the assurances

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that were given could actually have been nailed down publicly through

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the Assembly. Instead, we now have a situation where Iain Duncan-Smith

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could not assure me that the computer system he was taking

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charge of, and he was saying he was taking charge of the computer

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system, that it actually would be able to give that flexibility to

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Northern Ireland. Those are serious issues at the Assembly in terms of

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being able to get its own policies reflected still needs to get a hand

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on. Of deferring decisions, I do not think they should defer debate,

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but if deferring decisions to get more debate, if that means we can,

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then we should. But Sinn Fein are too late in waking up to those

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issues. It does not bite individual politicians, it's about the people

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who need the benefits. -- it is not about it.

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With me now are the commentator Paul McFadden and the PR consultant

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Sheila Davidson. Where do you think we are as far as

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this is concerned? You could forgive people watching for

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thinking it is a bit of fun and Holiness. -- a bit of a mess.

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the very strong feeling that the big battle in relation to this was

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fought out at Westminster this some time ago and all at the Assembly

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cannot now do is tinker at the edges. It is important in the sense

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that there are deportment -- important decisions. If it tinkers

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too much, they could be penalties. Absolutely. In terms of benefits to

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people, they could be problems. In terms of jobs will support servants,

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there could be implications. It is a serious issue. -- civil servants.

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They are deeply empathetic to people who could suffer as a effect

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of these cuts. People will suffer from that. I think she believes

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that essentially, the game is up. If the Assembly can sort out those

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things that need to be resolved at the benches and finesse that and

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sort that to people's satisfaction, but in terms of stopping the

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process, I think that is impossible. She is a regular broadcaster on the

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local radio. I do you stand on one of this? Can you pick your way

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through it? I think what is very interesting is that Mark Durkan is

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so eloquent in explaining best. Parliament is actually still

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prevalent in this. I took the opportunity to take a look at the

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act as it was going through and it is so open to interpretation on a

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local level but in fact, the ability it for people on the ground

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to to actually make this work properly for individuals here, is

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actually quite why it in my reading of it. I think that the politics

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around on of this is important and how it applies is important, but it

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is how it is delivered on the ground that is most important. So

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much is devolved down to ordinary people in benefits offices,

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Jobcentres and how they do with people on a one-to-one basis. That

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is what actually matters to ordinary people on the ground, not

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what is happening in Parliament or the Assembly, which they do not

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understand. But they understand is when the walking to a JobCentre,

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how are they being dealt with and how was that being applied to them.

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The resources it needs to be put into this is into proper training

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and proper delivery to people on the ground. To what extent can the

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politicians leave the party politics out of it and focus on the

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issues that Sheila Davidson has just talked about? The fact is, it

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does have to boil down to what does this matter to people? Does not to

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get the credit, it is to get the benefit. What is this do? What the

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changes make? Average age -- thereof a couple of positive

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aspects. But there are other very difficult aspect. But the Assembly

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needs to remember, when it is passing the legislation, is the way

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in which that Bill passed Westminster was Eric open. A lot of

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the things that were not detailed in the Bill were not left to local

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discretion. They were left to be continuing regulation by ministers.

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On a party issue, if the Assembly simple goes -- simply goes along

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with this, if they have to change this without going back to

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Parliament again, local ministers will say, you have to take that by

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way of parity. The Assembly need to exercise its better chance to have

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an influence on this. Unfortunately, that did not happen.

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You may well have a view on this next report, because the age

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profile of those walking the corridors of power here is getting

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lower and lower. Stormont now has the youngest parliamentarian in the

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UK or Ireland, Sinn Fein's Megan Fearon, who's 21. While the new

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Lord Mayor of Belfast, Gavin Robinson, is a mere 27. Chris Page

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:51:38.:51:49.

Politics here has had a drink from the fountain of youth. The young

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people are taking some top jobs. Just a few months ago, a student

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called Megan Fearon was sitting her finals here at Queen's University.

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Since then, she has gone from studying politics to being a fully-

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fledged politician. The is an obvious link between school

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attendance and deprivation. At the age of 21, she has swapped lectures

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for legislation. We definitely need more women and more young people in

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politics. I could not be an advocate for that and not attempt

:52:26.:52:36.
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to break the glass ceiling. Gavin Robinson, DUP's choice to

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lead the council. He is 27. The Lord Mayor thinks jobs do not get

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much better than his present one. You try to do your bit to help

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people and it is a very satisfying part of my life where you do get to

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engage with people. Being actively involved and trying to assist where

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you can, provide solutions, it is very rewarding. But would more

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senior people consider casting their vote for someone a lot

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younger question at a thing for a young man in their late twenties,

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he does not have enough experience in life. I think some are too young.

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If they have the experience, they could do it. But I doubt it.

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Megan Fearon Gavin Robinson think their voices are fallible. I do not

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think Mike life experience is any less valid than anyone else's

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because it is shorter. Everyone lives -- everyone looks different

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lives. I may only be 27. They may not have been on the earth as long

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as others, but I would like to think that my view is as important

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and equal as someone else who might have more experience. They are

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passionate about promoting young people's interest in the places of

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power. Answer a mere lifetime in the political limelight late lay

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Sheila and Paul are still with me. So, how do you feel about these

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newbies making such a splash in the local political pond?

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I am very enthusiastic about it. By the look the more young people get

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involved in politics, the better. - - I think. I think the editor of

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parachuting into a place in the Assembly is interesting. I would

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like to see more young people going through local council and earning

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Vespers before they jump straight into a legislative place. There is

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absolutely a place for him, but I think there is a wider aspect here,

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as well. That is the nature of the and people coming forward. I am

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very supportive through my working of graduates coming forward, but I

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actually think the political parties could be doing a lot more

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to engage with young people that are not in a crutch what kind of

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politically aware frame of mind and bring a very young people, the ones

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that are creating more problems on the streets here, into politics and

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given them an opportunity. There is a balance fundamentally to be

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struck between youth and experience. It will be interesting to see. We

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have had the example of a couple of very competent and people who are

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fairly new to politics, but I wonder to what extent they will be

:55:08.:55:13.

allowed to make their own stamp on politics here. We have seen in the

:55:13.:55:21.

very recent past when one of the major parties was allowed to lead a

:55:21.:55:27.

senior party... Whether these and people would be allowed to really

:55:27.:55:30.

make them ask in politics, it will be interesting to see. It will be

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interesting to see whether the profile we see received, whether

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that will mean that more young people turn out and out and become

:55:37.:55:41.

actively involved in politics. I would be a great success.

:55:41.:55:45.

Let's pause for a moment to reflect on disunity in the UUP and yet more

:55:45.:55:48.

traffic gridlock. Martina Purdy looks back at the political week in

:55:48.:55:58.
:55:58.:56:04.

His speech on Unionist unity left Ulster Unionists and running again.

:56:04.:56:09.

John McAllister was sacked as Deputy Leader. He took the sunshine

:56:09.:56:15.

into unity as an attack on him. political power caught the decision

:56:15.:56:21.

of brittle. He was not in the room. John McAllister was. He put out a

:56:21.:56:26.

statement. Not everyone in the Assembly was united on the issue of

:56:26.:56:30.

gay marriage. There were tensions for some political partnerships.

:56:30.:56:34.

Traffic chaos in Belfast left the regional development apartment in a

:56:34.:56:40.

jam. Is it time to say sorry? are willing to play a rule, but the

:56:40.:56:50.

back stops with them. At the chance encounter led to a new recruit.

:56:50.:56:54.

Martin McGuinness had a chuckle at the Ulster Unionists expense.

:56:54.:57:04.
:57:04.:57:09.

Ulster Unionist Party could be You mentioned -- you mentioned the

:57:09.:57:13.

Ulster Unionist Party, but what about the sacking and the

:57:13.:57:16.

justification for giving the speech when he appeared on the evil on

:57:16.:57:23.

Thursday night? He would say he is and has to have -- and that he has

:57:24.:57:27.

done nothing that deviates from party policy. I think the who thing

:57:27.:57:32.

is a car crash from the point of view of watching UUP almost to

:57:33.:57:37.

implode. He is a tremendous loss. You wonder how long he will remain

:57:37.:57:42.

in the party. There was speculation and one of the parked -- papers of

:57:42.:57:45.

are the people leaving the party and baby setting up on its own. It

:57:45.:57:52.

is quite disastrous. He spoke about trying to attract some of the

:57:53.:57:56.

people who do not vote in Northern Ireland. A think this is quite

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disastrous. Do you agree? You think they have got this wrong question

:58:01.:58:07.

at the iron fist on form as the greatest advocate, particularly in

:58:07.:58:09.

political parties about collective responsibility. How ever, in

:58:10.:58:14.

politics, you have to be able to have your own fair. You have to be

:58:14.:58:18.

honest and be able to express a view. John McAllister had a very

:58:18.:58:21.

real fame and should have been allowed to do it. He did it in a

:58:21.:58:25.

constructive way and a way that he was able to make his point, not be

:58:25.:58:30.

critical overly, but actually, have that six. And I think that actually

:58:30.:58:35.

was very good for UUP. I think the mistake he made was to come in too

:58:35.:58:39.

hard on something and make it look like he is totally unreasonable and

:58:39.:58:43.

drain -- ruling with a what of iron and trying to be strong in an area

:58:43.:58:51.

where he could have showed a more attitude. What about the rule from

:58:51.:58:58.

independence to you care? Were you surprised, bemused, intrigued by

:58:58.:59:04.

any of that? One of the above to an extent. I wonder long term would be.

:59:04.:59:14.
:59:14.:59:15.

Will be. Want impact it will make. -- what impact it will make. Long

:59:15.:59:22.

term, I wonder what future there is a net for the party here. But and

:59:22.:59:24.

the other issue we need to talk about his traffic gridlock.

:59:24.:59:27.

Everybody seems to be talking about that before the talk about anything

:59:27.:59:36.

else. I sat in an hour-long traffic jam to go to a business meeting the

:59:36.:59:40.

other morning. I was not happy. Let's see how this pans out. I'm

:59:40.:59:45.

sure that we will all lent go somewhere else. The answer is to go

:59:45.:59:49.

and move elsewhere. I had no problem getting here. We had

:59:49.:59:52.

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