15/01/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


15/01/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news and debate including a live interview with Education Secretary, Michael Gove MP.


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And on Sunday politics in Scotland, what is the first ministers

:01:25.:01:28.

negotiating position as the talks begin on the referendum questions

:01:28.:01:32.

and conditions? And what has the Scottish Secretary got to say about

:01:33.:01:42.
:01:43.:01:43.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1578 seconds

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Subtitles will resume shortly. We have no control over the fiscal

:28:01.:28:09.

levers. This exists for most countries, but a complete control

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of all of the levers. The Bank of England will have a big say on how

:28:17.:28:24.

much you borrow. They will want to control the borrowing. Each country

:28:24.:28:30.

borrows its own money. There is a sovereign problem. I would not

:28:30.:28:33.

imagine any government of persuasion would want to over-

:28:33.:28:40.

borrowed to the extent of this. have our business partner as London.

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If we became a separate nation it would be our biggest competitor.

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What we are saying is that we are letting a our biggest competitor

:28:49.:28:53.

set the interest rates and limits. How is that economically credible

:28:53.:29:03.
:29:03.:29:04.

for a separate nation. Final word. We will have control over the

:29:04.:29:13.

fiscal levers, that is a far better position than what we have now. We

:29:13.:29:18.

sell there and buy from England as we compete from and buy from

:29:18.:29:21.

countries around the world. We don't deal with England just as

:29:21.:29:31.
:29:31.:29:33.

part of United Kingdom or whether It is coming up to 12:30pm. You are

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watching the Sunday politics. afternoon, welcome to the new look

:29:42.:29:47.

Sunday politics in Scotland. The First Minister on his approach to

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the referendum negotiations between Holyrood and Westminster. He says

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he would rather talk to David and Nick, the Scottish Secretary is

:29:56.:30:02.

here to talk to us about his lines in the sand. And the road to

:30:02.:30:06.

devolution, what role will civic society play in this independence

:30:06.:30:16.

debate. So, one week down and only 139 weeks to go in the independence

:30:16.:30:23.

referendum debate. Nina Buchanan has been looking at how and when

:30:23.:30:33.
:30:33.:30:37.

Politically the stakes don't get any higher than this. The main

:30:37.:30:42.

prize is the constitutional future. After years of wrangling, all of

:30:42.:30:48.

the main players agree, they should be a referendum vote. David Cameron

:30:48.:30:52.

was the first to show some of his hand. There can only be a

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referendum if Westminster this be the glue authority for it to take

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place. He says that could happen but only with conditions. We should

:31:00.:31:06.

not just let this go on year after year. It is damaging for everybody.

:31:06.:31:12.

Let us clear up the situation. My view is sooner rather than later

:31:12.:31:16.

would be better. The Lib Dem Scottish secretary then said what

:31:16.:31:21.

they would expect from a referendum. They would expect electoral

:31:21.:31:27.

commission to be involved, No 16 year olds get into votes, and one

:31:27.:31:33.

simple yes or no question. But Alex Salmond, flush with his boats from

:31:33.:31:38.

the last election, said he did not need to play by Westminster rules

:31:38.:31:44.

and seemed to suggest his view was there should be no deal. This is a

:31:44.:31:48.

huge decision for Scotland. Potentially the biggest decision we

:31:48.:31:54.

have made for a nation for 300 years. We will not be cocooned by a

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Tory prime minister in London. Friday he seemed to re-enter the

:32:00.:32:05.

game saying he would meet up with the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime

:32:05.:32:08.

Minister to discuss a potential referendum deal. What is there to

:32:08.:32:13.

discuss? The insistence on giving 16 year olds the vote, and the

:32:13.:32:20.

policy of an independent commission to run the election. The climax is

:32:20.:32:24.

a potential second question, asking for more powers for the Scottish

:32:24.:32:28.

parliament. Something the main Unionist parties don't want to get

:32:28.:32:33.

into. These are risky times for the Labour Party, in Scotland and

:32:33.:32:38.

London. They suggest they would prefer greater powers for the

:32:38.:32:42.

Scottish parliament, but have no firm policy on that. I simply say

:32:42.:32:47.

no they risk applying themselves closely with the Conservatives.

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it is not fair on scholar now, or Scotland of the future for the

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timing of this referendum to be the there in the hands of one

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politician. This referendum belongs not to politicians but to the

:33:04.:33:09.

people of Scotland. Therefore, it is the challenge of leadership to

:33:09.:33:15.

build a consensus on how the referendum is run. How will this

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all played out in the long run, foreign first ministry could accept

:33:18.:33:22.

the Westminster deal and get his yes or no referendum. The opinion

:33:22.:33:27.

polls suggest that the moment he would lose it. Or he could go it

:33:27.:33:32.

alone, but that risks a legal challenge. He will then have to win

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the referendum, supposing the courts allow him to. Then for the

:33:37.:33:41.

coalition there are risks. If the deal is done we could lose Scotland

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and the Union. If this goes to the courts it could be seen as an

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obstacle to the will of the Scottish people. For the Labour

:33:49.:33:54.

Party, it could be seen as co- operating with the Conservatives in

:33:54.:33:59.

Scotland, which is electronic toxic. At the moment they have yet to come

:33:59.:34:03.

up with a coherent policy which would see new powers for Edinburgh.

:34:03.:34:10.

Currently, they are simply saying The first minister is currently on

:34:10.:34:15.

a trip to United Arab Emirates, but before he went, he met us. He said

:34:15.:34:19.

he is very happy to have talks but is unsure whether he will get the

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top-level discussions he wants any time soon. I have been trying to

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meet the Prime Minister about six times since we last met in July.

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Each time, Downing Street has been a un keen on having we are in a

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Thatcher like mode, the Prime Minister is behaving like Thatcher.

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Perhaps he has flipped, as she used to save. I do hope we can get into

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meaningful discussions. Just so long as what is excepted are right

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for Scotland. These matters were debated extensively at the election

:34:59.:35:06.

of Scotland, the SNP government and other people who supports cholent

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have a commanding majority in the parliament. -- who support Scotland.

:35:11.:35:16.

We are happier tittle, but it must be on the basis that these matters

:35:16.:35:21.

are Scotland's decision. They must be a referendum constructed in

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Scotland and decided by the good wisdom and judgment of BP poor.

:35:26.:35:30.

whom do you have to top, Michael Moore, you must talk to when you

:35:30.:35:34.

want to. Does it have to be the prime minister and deputy prime

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minister? What is the meaningful interaction at this stage? Clearly

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it must be with those making the decisions. The cavernous set up

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what they call a quarter, a group of people who spend their time

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dreaming up how they can deal with the Scottish question. That

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includes the Prime Minister and Chancellor, the Liberal Party

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leader and Danny Alexander. It does not involve the Scottish Secretary.

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Do you have to speak to members of that group or it is it not worth

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having a conversation at this stage? When the UK Cabinet took the

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extraordinary actions this week it was George Osborne, the Chancellor

:36:13.:36:20.

of the Exchequer, who presented it. You must talk to folk making the

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decision. I will talk to anybody. If you are going to make progress,

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you must talk to those making the decision. Are you disappointed they

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haven't agreed to talk? I am disappointed but I don't think it

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is sustainable. You must not say you just step back, and leave

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somebody else to do the talking. The Downing Street position is

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unsustainable. Willett be impossible to have a resolution in

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the next eight weeks on BT's substantive issue? Unless there is

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fast movement? I am always prepared to move fast but the timetable we

:37:00.:37:06.

will set in Scotland, is a proper timetable. A week on Wednesday, we

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will be introducing to the Scottish parliament the consultation

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document from the government, for the Scottish Community. Not just

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for politicians but for the whole Scottish community, civic Scotland,

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about our proposals as a government and how we should conduct the

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referendum. Then we will listen to the boys of Scotland. That is how

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we must proceed. Not with some artificially constructed timetable

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dreamt up in the bowels of Downing Street. If we look then, to be

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essential tool, what happens with the legality of Scottish parliament

:37:42.:37:47.

holding a referendum? When he published the legal advice?

:37:47.:37:51.

Governments don't publish legal advice, I will not start. But there

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is plenty of advice out there. With the constitutional law and

:37:56.:38:04.

Edinburgh University. The people who wrote the textbook on it. The

:38:04.:38:08.

government had only said what their opinion is, they have not publish

:38:08.:38:14.

the legal advice. See if we can cut through this though, nobody in the

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SNP government has an objection to section 30. A legally binding

:38:19.:38:27.

referendum. What we object to is the strength attached to section 30.

:38:27.:38:33.

It was offered as a great gesture, but then you say, incidentally,

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when you hold this referendum this is how you well-conducted and who

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will vote. Just before we leave the legal aspect, what do you do with

:38:45.:38:49.

these legal loose ends which could unravel spectacularly? Injecting

:38:49.:38:53.

some poison to the body politics. It could have an effect for many

:38:53.:39:01.

years. Most of the referendums which have been conducted need to

:39:01.:39:06.

be consulted. I am happy to have a legally binding referendum, but the

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facts is, the referendum, which the coalition government conducted last

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year, it was a Conservative referendum. Nothing unusual about

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that, but I am happy to have a legally binding one. Not with

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Westminster setting the terms and conditions though. These are days

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that are over. Can I ask you about the Scottish Conservative point.

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Unless it is legally binding, then, you will have access not to be full

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official register, but to be publicly available register, and

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that effectively disenfranchise is them. Scottish Tories have got it

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wrong in every respect. The referendum, whether it is legally

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binding on not, will be an act of Scottish parliament. That Act

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defines the electoral register and it would be the full electoral

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register. You have nothing to negotiate. He said it is our deal

:40:09.:40:14.

or no deal, but that is not sustainable. At some point the

:40:14.:40:18.

public think it is manipulative if the SNP choose the question, who

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runs it, who votes, if they are in for Scotland's interests, they will

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negotiate, so what do you negotiate. If you get the timing the ones, are

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you willing to say, just one question? We should wait until the

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documents are published, a week on Wednesday. Many of the anxieties of

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fears that people have raised will disappear when the consultation

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document is issued. The one thing we can't surrender, the one thing

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we can't give up on, is that these are matters for Scotland and the

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Scottish Parliament to decide. The Scottish committee to decide. We

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cannot have a Scottish referendum on the future of this country, the

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biggest decision for 300 years, manipulated in Downing Street.

:41:08.:41:14.

you look at what may be acceptable to you now, what the existing

:41:14.:41:19.

electoral commission be acceptable to you to run the referendum, if it

:41:19.:41:22.

were to report to the Scottish parliament. As is your rights, you

:41:22.:41:27.

are trying to get me to describe the entire context of a

:41:27.:41:31.

consultation document. But Parliament would look askance if I

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did. The consultation document will take things forward, what it will

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never ever give up on is that these are matters for Scotland to decide.

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Can I ask you who were defined the devo-max question? That is the

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elephant in the room. That is a point I have may not just this week

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but in the months passed. The SNP must define independence. That is

:41:57.:42:02.

our job, we are the party for independence and I have called

:42:02.:42:07.

successfully and successively for the devo-max position to be defined.

:42:07.:42:11.

The documents have defined what the position could be, but I do accept

:42:11.:42:16.

it is for others to come forward. It has some very important

:42:16.:42:21.

champions in Scottish society, Scotland's biggest job at the

:42:21.:42:26.

moment, with Jim a call, he was an ardent supporter of the vote next.

:42:26.:42:30.

Many of the Civic positions are very keen on the Defoe Max

:42:30.:42:36.

proposition. I think they should have three time and space to define

:42:36.:42:42.

the option. -- devo-max. Do you retain the position, as highlighted,

:42:42.:42:50.

that if devo-max is a referendum question, a 51 per cent vote for

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independence would secured independence even if there is a 78

:42:55.:43:00.

per cent, 82 per cent vote, for devo-max. That is not a sustainable

:43:00.:43:07.

proposition, is it? Thinking back to 1997 when we had a two question

:43:07.:43:14.

referendum, in 1997, the percentage vote for the parliament without

:43:14.:43:18.

taxation powers was higher than the vote for a parliament with taxation

:43:18.:43:22.

powers. The first vote was higher than the second vote. The

:43:22.:43:25.

formulation of the questions is part of the discussion.

:43:26.:43:30.

Incidentally, despite the fact the Prime Minister has been adamant in

:43:30.:43:35.

saying only one question, if you look at the consultation document

:43:35.:43:42.

released it asks for consultation on questions, after ruling out

:43:42.:43:46.

another question, they are willing to consult on it. A number of

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contradictions coming from London over the last few days. Are you

:43:51.:43:55.

saying that he would consider possibly having a street --

:43:55.:44:05.

straight devo-max question? We will consult the proposals, the

:44:05.:44:09.

proposals which the government think are sensible. Hours, perhaps

:44:09.:44:14.

like -- unlike the ones elsewhere, will be for the community of

:44:14.:44:17.

Scotland and in consultation with the Committee of Scotland. Another

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option, if the community of Scotland wishes. Let me ask you

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about the deepening crisis in the euro-zone. Is it your position now

:44:27.:44:32.

that whatever happens in the euro- zone, Scotland will at some point,

:44:32.:44:37.

it is your intention, to ask: to join the euro? What are we now

:44:37.:44:42.

moving towards territory where you will have to review that? We will

:44:42.:44:47.

have to see what comes up. For a monetary union to come together its

:44:47.:44:51.

does not need fiscal union. It's set in its fiscal discipline, but

:44:51.:44:55.

that is not something which frightens us. Fiscal integration

:44:55.:44:59.

would be something different. We are not at that stage. Many

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questions within the euro, very successfully in the euro, not the

:45:03.:45:07.

ones under great pressure right now which has struggled, but our

:45:07.:45:14.

position is staying with sterling until we can take a position on the

:45:14.:45:19.

euro. It is a strong situation, I was amazed to hear, not said, but

:45:20.:45:23.

reported in the press, that we would not be allowed to use

:45:23.:45:28.

sterling. The UK government cannot stop and independence: from using

:45:28.:45:33.

sterling. 1, sterling is not owned by George Osborne, he has been

:45:33.:45:37.

chancellor for 18 months. Sterling has been around a long time. The

:45:37.:45:41.

Bank of England was founded by a Scot before the act of Unionism.

:45:41.:45:47.

But it is a convertible currency. You could not stop people. I don't

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:46:01.

know what George Osborne has his But if the euro does not develop in

:46:01.:46:11.
:46:11.:46:12.

ways you like, we might stay with Sterling forever? Our purpose is to

:46:12.:46:17.

further the Scottish interest, anything we do will always be in

:46:17.:46:20.

the Scottish interest. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does

:46:20.:46:26.

not own Sterling and he cannot prevent people in Scotland from

:46:26.:46:33.

using it. But you think in your mind it may not be beneficial to

:46:33.:46:37.

Scotland to enter the euro? great advantage of independence is

:46:37.:46:42.

that it allowed you to choose what is in the best interests of

:46:42.:46:47.

Scotland, even under devolution deer are many subjects, defence,

:46:47.:46:52.

social security, where we cannot choose what is in the best

:46:52.:47:02.
:47:02.:47:04.

interests of our country. The First Minister seems to be suggesting

:47:04.:47:08.

there is not a lot of point in talking to you, do you still want

:47:08.:47:13.

to meet within this week? I think it is important that we should go

:47:13.:47:18.

on and discuss what we will do to make sure that in Scotland we

:47:18.:47:23.

create a referendum on the biggest decision we will ever take in our

:47:23.:47:28.

lives here in this country. We must make sure it is legal and that at

:47:28.:47:33.

the end of the process we will know exactly remit will leave us here in

:47:33.:47:43.
:47:43.:47:47.

Scotland. Either as part of one of the most six six full -- successful

:47:47.:47:56.

nations in history or on our own. I drafted the consultation document

:47:56.:48:00.

which I prayer presented -- represented to the Commons on

:48:00.:48:04.

Tuesday. We have worked together as a Government and as a cabinet

:48:04.:48:10.

agreed that. It does not just involve us as politicians, it is

:48:10.:48:15.

about people across Scotland being able to be part of the

:48:15.:48:21.

consideration of how we make this most important choice. The

:48:21.:48:25.

fundamental starting point is that it should be legal. Alex Salmond is

:48:25.:48:30.

making a distinction between legally binding or consultative. At

:48:30.:48:35.

the moment we could not have any kind of a referendum because it is

:48:35.:48:41.

not a power of the Scottish Parliament. It needs to be. We have

:48:41.:48:47.

to give the Scottish Parliament the power. We must make the referendum

:48:47.:48:56.

here in Scotland and have a fair one. On May 7th on this show when I

:48:56.:49:00.

asked if you accept that the Scottish Parliament has the right

:49:00.:49:06.

and the legal power to build a referendum on independence you said

:49:06.:49:12.

we could I suppose make a constitutional issue but I do not

:49:12.:49:18.

think that is a sensible use of anyone's time. You said it is much

:49:18.:49:25.

more important we have their debate than have a debate about whether we

:49:25.:49:32.

can have an debate. What has changed? As we looked carefully at

:49:32.:49:37.

the situation it is very evident to me and to most people that I talk

:49:37.:49:42.

to than the legal power is not there so what I have said about

:49:42.:49:47.

let's not have a debate about the debate, I think temper rally we

:49:47.:49:53.

will have to have that. We must ensure the politicians clear the

:49:53.:49:58.

rules of the game. Politicians across Scotland can give us their

:49:58.:50:04.

views and I started a process on Tuesday so we can have a referendum

:50:04.:50:09.

here at home in Scotland which is fair and clear cut. What we do not

:50:09.:50:13.

want at the end of this process is to have a referendum where someone

:50:13.:50:19.

might challenge the result. This is huge, it is really important about

:50:19.:50:25.

our future so let's get on with it. We will look at your consultation

:50:25.:50:30.

paper in more detail in a moment but can you give us your opinion on

:50:30.:50:40.
:50:40.:50:40.

the Sterling issue? This is absolutely central to the debate,

:50:40.:50:43.

whether or not Scotland continued with Sterling is a matter that

:50:43.:50:50.

would have to be discussed and debated. What we have been seeing

:50:50.:50:57.

is that -- saying is that you have to be clear whether or not you are

:50:57.:51:04.

going to accept that your interest rates will be set in London.

:51:04.:51:08.

have heard a lot of debate about the mechanics but in principle do

:51:08.:51:14.

you accept that Scotland has the legal right to continue using

:51:14.:51:24.

Sterling post-independence? If that is part of the deal that the

:51:24.:51:28.

independence section of the debate wanted that would be part of it. We

:51:28.:51:34.

could have it but I think you would have to think of the consequences

:51:34.:51:37.

about who would set interest rates and what it would mean for you

:51:37.:51:46.

spending and borrowing plans. I have seen senior SNP members asked

:51:46.:51:56.

about that and the do not get onto it. Just to move along, there is a

:51:56.:52:00.

lot of ground I want to cover, briefly, it is it the case you have

:52:00.:52:10.
:52:10.:52:13.

now actually conceded Debate? -- the date. What we said is we want

:52:13.:52:19.

to get on with it and have it sooner rather than later. But if it

:52:19.:52:23.

is autumn 2014, can you live with that? The First Minister has put

:52:24.:52:33.

that forward as his preference. We are engaging voices across Scotland.

:52:33.:52:37.

We will see where the debate glance but I'm very firmly believe we

:52:37.:52:46.

should have it at -- as soon as we can. So that is not a line in the

:52:46.:52:51.

sand for you. Can we also get clarity on the idea that you could

:52:51.:52:55.

legislate to allow the electoral commission to report to the

:52:55.:53:01.

Scottish Government in the case of this referendum. Is it the case

:53:01.:53:05.

that you think that is something you might concede and it might be

:53:05.:53:12.

constructive? That was in the consultation document. We envisaged

:53:12.:53:15.

that we couldn't of a body like the electoral commission which is

:53:15.:53:18.

neutral and has a great deal of experience of running these types

:53:19.:53:28.
:53:29.:53:30.

of events so, yes. Just to clarify, to specifically report to the

:53:30.:53:33.

Scottish Parliament, that is the whole point? You would change the

:53:33.:53:39.

law to allow that to happen? that was in the document I launched

:53:39.:53:44.

on Tuesday for those who wish to look at it. Page 15 down the bottom.

:53:44.:53:52.

It is very clearly the year. -- very clearly the it. Yes, that is

:53:52.:54:02.
:54:02.:54:06.

there and that is how we envisage it. -- clearly there. Under the

:54:06.:54:11.

heading a decisive referendum, what are your views on the question or

:54:11.:54:21.
:54:21.:54:22.

questions to be asked in the referendum? Will you negotiate?

:54:22.:54:26.

said on Tuesday and all colleagues have been saying the same thing

:54:26.:54:32.

that our preference is for a single question. We think we need to

:54:32.:54:35.

resolve this fundamentally important matter. Are we in

:54:35.:54:39.

Scotland going to continue as part of the UK or are we going to go our

:54:39.:54:45.

separate way? That is the question that needs to be asked. The reason

:54:45.:54:49.

I think we need a single question is that clearly the SNP got a

:54:49.:54:54.

majority in May last year which committed them to a referendum on

:54:54.:54:58.

independence. We need to allow them to have that and that is what the

:54:58.:55:02.

debate is around. Once we have resolved that matter I think it is

:55:02.:55:05.

entirely right that we should consider within the UK what our

:55:05.:55:11.

powers are. How would like to give the Scottish Parliament many more

:55:11.:55:16.

powers along with other parties in Scotland but we want to resolve the

:55:16.:55:25.

simple question, do we want to be independent or not? For a lot of

:55:25.:55:29.

Botha's this will be confusing because one option is pretty much

:55:29.:55:36.

federalism. It is presented as a safety measure for the First

:55:36.:55:44.

Minister but it could be a safety measure for the union. I think it

:55:44.:55:48.

is important we resolve the question of whether we stay as part

:55:48.:55:52.

of the UK or not. After that I think there is an entirely

:55:52.:55:57.

legitimate debate about how much further we want to enhance the

:55:58.:56:02.

Scottish Parliament's powers. Willie Rennie has already set up a

:56:02.:56:09.

commission chaired by men Campbell which looks at these powers. --

:56:10.:56:19.
:56:20.:56:21.

Ming. The issue for now is, are we continuing with in the UK? Thank

:56:21.:56:28.

you for talking to us. So, who will champion the massive expanse of

:56:28.:56:35.

political territory between the Scotland Bill recommendations and

:56:35.:56:43.

full-blown independence. What does that mean? It is allies down for

:56:43.:56:48.

musical bingo in Edinburgh. People are known to come out in force on

:56:48.:56:56.

polling day but eight Scotland fear the use of organisations like

:56:56.:57:06.
:57:06.:57:08.

theirs will be drowned out by party politics. What we have seen in the

:57:08.:57:12.

first week is that the debate has all been about process and name-

:57:12.:57:17.

calling between Westminster and Holyrood. So that the people of

:57:17.:57:20.

Scotland are given an informed choice it is important that civic

:57:20.:57:28.

society takes a hold of this whole debate. Lycee know and we are the

:57:28.:57:38.
:57:38.:57:39.

State, will we say yes and we are dead people. -- we say. -- the

:57:39.:57:49.
:57:49.:57:52.

people. The STUC want to set up a referendum commission. Decisions

:57:52.:57:59.

taken by the political parties on things like proportional

:57:59.:58:02.

representation is fundamental to getting the broad consensus which

:58:02.:58:10.

led to quite a united campaign for the issues on the referendum.

:58:10.:58:15.

you see met for the first time in 1989 here at the General Assembly

:58:15.:58:19.

Halls on the mind where they discussed the formation of the

:58:19.:58:23.

Scottish Parliament. It is hoped that now the views of civic society

:58:23.:58:33.
:58:33.:58:37.

will be heard again. In bigger nations like England Germany or

:58:37.:58:42.

France it is different. This organisation will play a

:58:42.:58:48.

determining role in the referendum. We will listen to civic Scotland

:58:48.:58:54.

and their point of view. But is listening putting a second question

:58:54.:59:02.

on the ballot paper? If it is a simple choice of independence or

:59:03.:59:10.

the status quo, independence might win. Something in between the two

:59:10.:59:17.

extremes might be the option that would win. The challenge for those

:59:17.:59:21.

representing civics society is how it they can work together on the

:59:21.:59:27.

next 2.5 years to get the questions they want on the ballot paper. With

:59:27.:59:34.

me in the studio now is the chairman of the think tank Reform

:59:34.:59:42.

Scotland and someone who chaired the Scottish Civic Forum. Are the

:59:42.:59:47.

politicians letting us down this week? His party politics taking too

:59:47.:59:50.

much of it all and we should be looking at the wider interests of

:59:50.:59:56.

Scotland? I think no one who really cares about the future of Scotland

:59:56.:00:03.

could want to keep the third option of the ballot paper. It is quite

:00:03.:00:09.

clear that that is the kind of option that the largest majority of

:00:09.:00:16.

Scottish voters would feel most comfortable with at the moment. It

:00:16.:00:20.

should be a question which allows people who want to opt for

:00:20.:00:25.

independence to do so and for those who have not done so to say that

:00:25.:00:30.

short of independence would you like to open negotiations for more

:00:30.:00:37.

powers? There has been a huge amount of breath wasted this week

:00:37.:00:47.
:00:47.:00:51.

over legality. I think anything which does not allow more enhanced

:00:51.:01:00.

evolution options is not good. I do not think they should have a

:01:00.:01:04.

definite No or yes to independence because if it is a narrow know it

:01:04.:01:13.

where does that leave us? It does not end the question of

:01:13.:01:18.

independence. In whose interests is that? It is just party politicians

:01:18.:01:25.

trying to do each other down. anything clear to you about where

:01:25.:01:30.

this is going? The process is not particularly clear. I think that

:01:30.:01:34.

what we have seen in the last week has been a lot of party political

:01:34.:01:39.

posturing. The point is we are not looking at the different options

:01:39.:01:44.

and the details of those options, whether that is a form of

:01:44.:01:48.

independence or what is actually what the status quo can offer us or

:01:48.:01:54.

from our point of view what the alternative is in the middle.

:01:55.:02:00.

middle ground is massive. Who should formulate the devolution

:02:00.:02:09.

plus question? What we have done at the Reform Scotland is over the

:02:09.:02:13.

course of the past few years is worked out a very specific proposal.

:02:13.:02:18.

It may not be the best one but it has at least been well thought out

:02:18.:02:28.

It is much easier to have a debate when something detailed is put on

:02:28.:02:35.

the table. We can say which bits we like and what we don't. If they put

:02:35.:02:40.

something forward for discussion, it adds something. The difference

:02:40.:02:44.

from the 1990s is the difference of the Unionist parties in Scotland

:02:44.:02:47.

which has left this debate being dominated by voices from

:02:47.:02:52.

Westminster who are behind the game and I'd using the wrong language.

:02:52.:02:57.

They are using the language of negativity, of confrontation, that

:02:57.:03:03.

will not, for a progressive Unionist position, do. We are

:03:03.:03:07.

lacking strong, party political voices from Scotland who are taking

:03:07.:03:10.

a broadly Unionist position but have a progressive view about how

:03:10.:03:16.

it should evolve. It is just not there at the moment but it is down

:03:16.:03:22.

to civil society, which is not as strong as it was in the 1990s.

:03:22.:03:30.

oh, do you think it is up to civil society to do this? The aim must

:03:30.:03:33.

put pressure on the Labour Party and Liberal Democrats to adopt a

:03:33.:03:37.

more dynamic approach to this referendum and make sure the devo-

:03:37.:03:42.

max option is there. He what the polls are telling us is that this

:03:42.:03:47.

is the preferred option. Two-thirds of people support something in the

:03:47.:03:50.

middle. They recognise the process is not working for England or

:03:50.:03:56.

Scotland. Also, as a majority in the polls, they don't want to go

:03:56.:04:02.

for independence. The middle option as the populist support. If this

:04:02.:04:06.

middle option wins, who has mandated it? Who are the self-

:04:06.:04:10.

selecting groups to have come up with the idea and how do you

:04:10.:04:14.

enforce it at Westminster in negotiations there? As a number of

:04:14.:04:19.

people have pointed out the power is already in place. If one wanted

:04:19.:04:25.

to, to go down the route of devolution plus or devo-max which

:04:25.:04:29.

the SNP government is putting forward as an alternative. Whoever

:04:29.:04:33.

comes up with the alternative must be on the front for it by saying

:04:33.:04:37.

this is our preferred option. The Scottish government cannot say it

:04:37.:04:41.

is their preferred option. They must say it is the best option for

:04:41.:04:45.

Scotland and what comes out of it forms the best relationship with

:04:45.:04:50.

the UK. It would then be for the Scottish government, after the

:04:50.:04:55.

referendum, whoever that is, to take it forward. They are not

:04:55.:05:00.

legally bound, but mandated, clearly mandated by the Scottish

:05:00.:05:05.

people to negotiate some form of enhanced devolution. If the

:05:05.:05:09.

Scottish people chose Alex Salmond as the best person, that is their

:05:09.:05:13.

choice. But it would be the Scottish Parliament and government

:05:13.:05:17.

coming out of the Scottish Parliament to take it forward.

:05:17.:05:21.

are almost out of time, but do you think there will be the enthusiasm

:05:21.:05:26.

and commitment from people out there to engage with this for those

:05:26.:05:31.

not in political parties, people who don't have those interests, is

:05:31.:05:37.

there going to be the momentum? think people will be depressed and

:05:37.:05:41.

worried if they think they will have a legally binding referendum

:05:41.:05:46.

on independence only. Make your minds up and if you don't know you

:05:46.:05:50.

are done with. I think people will be depressed and anxious if that is

:05:50.:05:54.

the only option. Avoiding that outcome will motivate people to

:05:54.:06:00.

become very engaged again. Thank you very much indeed, I have a

:06:00.:06:06.

feeling we will be doing much more of this in the months ahead. Now

:06:06.:06:13.

for the lunchtime news. Good afternoon, Michael Moore says he is

:06:13.:06:17.

ready to negotiate with the First Minister over the timing of the

:06:17.:06:20.

independence referendum. He says it should be down to the Scottish

:06:20.:06:25.

people to decide the future of the country. It is important that we

:06:25.:06:30.

get on and decide what we do here in Scotland. Creating a referendum

:06:30.:06:34.

on the biggest decision we will take in our lives. In this country.

:06:34.:06:41.

We must make sure it is legal, fair and decisive. At the end of the

:06:41.:06:45.

process we will know exactly where it leads us. As part of the most

:06:45.:06:49.

successful partnership of an Nations in history of going our own

:06:49.:06:53.

way. A leading Scottish Conservative fundraiser has said he

:06:53.:06:59.

is stepping down from his post. Sir Jack Harvey has raised around �60

:06:59.:07:03.

million, the Conservatives have paid tribute to the 65 year-old

:07:03.:07:07.

contribution and said a new fund- raising team is being put in place.

:07:07.:07:13.

The SNP says that his retirement is a blow for the Conservative

:07:13.:07:19.

leadership. A flat was attended to by police last night. Officers

:07:19.:07:24.

spend hours at the block of flats as they negotiated with a man there,

:07:24.:07:28.

the 25 year-old is expected to appear in court tomorrow. Now let

:07:28.:07:33.

us look at the weather prospects. us look at the weather prospects.

:07:33.:07:37.

Good afternoon, the bloke behind me says it all. We will see some

:07:37.:07:40.

thicker cloud towards the Outer Hebrides and extending to the

:07:40.:07:45.

Shetlands. Some Shun signed two. Cold temperatures, no higher than

:07:45.:07:54.

four Celsius, struggling to get to That is all for now, the next

:07:54.:08:02.

bulletin is at 6:50pm this evening. Now, a reminder of the top news

:08:02.:08:12.
:08:12.:08:19.

Well, I think we can all safely say the constitutional wranglings will

:08:19.:08:27.

say centre-stage in the weeks ahead. And, I am joined now by the

:08:27.:08:32.

broadcaster and Scottish political editor of the Daily Telegraph, in

:08:32.:08:35.

the Edinburgh studio. Good afternoon to you both, going for

:08:35.:08:42.

the cream of the crop in our inaugural programme. Quite right.

:08:42.:08:47.

Lesley, let us start with what you think of the week which has gone.

:08:47.:08:51.

Have any politicians covered themselves in glory. Possibly not.

:08:51.:08:55.

A very polarising week but perhaps that was inevitable. Now people are

:08:55.:08:59.

beginning to take stock. Interesting what he heard from

:08:59.:09:04.

Michael Moore, it sounds like the date is now not the big one, and we

:09:04.:09:10.

are now moving on to the second question issue. Also, whether

:09:10.:09:14.

politicians are capable of being trusted. On the other hand, is it

:09:14.:09:20.

up to the public, do we have to do it somehow? Questions will be

:09:20.:09:25.

raised as to who is the legitimate one, in a legitimate position to

:09:25.:09:29.

write questions on which the Scottish must vote. It strikes me

:09:29.:09:33.

that Labour are missing from this. This is their policy and it is time

:09:33.:09:38.

they stood up because again in Westminster will devo-max, if voted

:09:38.:09:44.

for, ever get a lead its love potion. Look at the request of the

:09:44.:09:49.

Scottish government had after they were elected in May. Has it been

:09:49.:09:56.

devolved back to Scotland, no. These were not big ones, and they

:09:56.:10:01.

have not move. We could be in the mire for decades if we don't have a

:10:01.:10:06.

party that is absolutely wedded to something short of independence but

:10:06.:10:10.

more than the Scotland Bill. That must be Labour, because they are

:10:10.:10:15.

not in coalition with the Tories. Allen, do you think this devo-max

:10:15.:10:20.

question is going to go away or not? Is that something which can be

:10:20.:10:25.

negotiated? If not, what does it mean in practice? I am not sure you

:10:25.:10:30.

are right about the timing. I don't think he has conceded anything. I

:10:30.:10:34.

don't think there is any question that the deal breaker is the number

:10:34.:10:39.

of questions. It will be one question as far as Westminster is

:10:39.:10:46.

concerned and as far as I think the ultimate outcome is concerned. The

:10:46.:10:48.

SNP conference from last October, SNP conference from last October,

:10:48.:10:54.

SNP conference from last October, there was nothing like it. Lots of

:10:54.:10:57.

nationalists think they can win on one question. They will want to go

:10:57.:11:02.

for one question. Let's have a debate on devo-max but let's sort

:11:02.:11:03.

debate on devo-max but let's sort debate on devo-max but let's sort

:11:03.:11:08.

out the big one first. If Joyce McMillan is saying we must have the

:11:08.:11:11.

devo-max question because they will not accept a defeat on the big

:11:11.:11:17.

question, then we are playing a different ball game. To you have

:11:17.:11:22.

concerns when we say voices must be heard in Scotland? We have spoken

:11:22.:11:26.

about a bigger game, this intense political question in a different

:11:26.:11:31.

sort of way. Have you got any concern about why this column's not

:11:31.:11:36.

choosing to engage this time around? I hear people talking about

:11:36.:11:37.

around? I hear people talking about around? I hear people talking about

:11:37.:11:40.

is all the time. The groundswell has started already. I don't hear

:11:40.:11:45.

people really using phrases like devo-max. Should we raise our own

:11:45.:11:49.

taxes in Scotland. Do we believe we are capable of running ourselves on

:11:49.:11:57.

our own income base and well. That is what lies behind devo-max.

:11:57.:12:02.

who defines that? I think there is an issue. We can all have stabs at

:12:02.:12:06.

the definition. Reforms: there is a good one, but that is what

:12:06.:12:10.

political parties are for. They should ask that question to

:12:10.:12:14.

themselves. If they don't step up to the mark and do this work, why

:12:14.:12:21.

do we need them? If we look at the power-play behind this, we keep

:12:21.:12:24.

hearing George Osborne's name. Everybody saying he is the

:12:24.:12:28.

mastermind behind it. Do you have an inside track, what is going on

:12:28.:12:35.

here? I don't have an inside track with Conservatives. With all of the

:12:35.:12:41.

political parties! With some more than others, but that is for you to

:12:41.:12:46.

decide! Michael Moore drew up the consultation paper, he drew it up

:12:46.:12:50.

and will discuss it with an exam and if he wants to talk to him.

:12:50.:12:54.

Last week he was saying that Michael Moore had a better attitude

:12:54.:12:57.

then a George Osbourne and David Cameron, but now he says it does

:12:57.:13:01.

not want to talk to Michael Moore just David Cameron. But, Alex

:13:01.:13:06.

Salmond has been shifting on his ground all week. He will not tell

:13:06.:13:13.

you about it, he has the Scottish Parliament issue. He did not tell

:13:13.:13:20.

the Scottish Parliament, he told Sky, and the BBC and s TV. We

:13:20.:13:24.

should not read too much into this, he cannot tell us because it does

:13:24.:13:30.

not know. People keep talking about clarity, but at what point do we

:13:30.:13:34.

get clarity? When I was asking about what the politicians were

:13:34.:13:38.

doing and whether they were doing us a disservice. We were so caught

:13:38.:13:41.

up in the mechanics we were not discussing wider issues. At what

:13:41.:13:47.

point do we get clarity. What should be conceded at this stage?

:13:47.:13:52.

If we are going for 2014, and we are, we should pace ourselves.

:13:52.:13:56.

Looking to get the consultation document on Burns Night, nicely

:13:56.:14:01.

timed, then we will have a better idea on where we are going. There

:14:01.:14:04.

are big consequences for the rest of Britain. They are beginning to

:14:04.:14:13.

think about it. How does the set-up work? How would you want to rejig

:14:13.:14:16.

the United Kingdom if you were doing it now? Would you have a

:14:16.:14:22.

House of Lords? There are some Poles out today which say the

:14:22.:14:28.

majority of English would be quite happy, what do you think? To me,

:14:28.:14:32.

that looks like repressed demand for an English parliament. You can

:14:32.:14:37.

look so many ways that what are the beginning of stirrings in people

:14:37.:14:40.

across the United Kingdom, but I don't think they are necessarily

:14:40.:14:43.

just saying cheerio, they are saying they would like their own

:14:43.:14:49.

parliament. We have only got a few seconds left, Sir Jack Harvey is

:14:49.:14:54.

backing out of Tory fund-raising, is that very significant? Totally

:14:54.:14:59.

irrelevant. He is a good guy, but it is irrelevant to the future of

:14:59.:15:07.

Scotland. We are out of time. Let me ask though, given the opinions

:15:07.:15:12.

coming from the south, the impact it would have, what would be an

:15:12.:15:15.

appropriate role for voters in England and Wales and Northern

:15:15.:15:23.

Ireland? It is entirely a matter for the people of Scotland,

:15:23.:15:28.

commissars of Scotland. Let us get some clarity, Alex Salmond was

:15:28.:15:31.

talking about an advisory referendum, that would mean a

:15:31.:15:39.

second referendum, you cannot have one on the detail am one without.

:15:39.:15:45.

But this is rubbish, you are employed to find these difficulties,

:15:45.:15:48.

and these for negative points, in the bigger scheme of things we have

:15:48.:15:58.
:15:58.:15:58.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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