29/04/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman.

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Afternoon folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.


David Cameron puts his Culture Secretary on probation this morning.


He'll see how Jeremy Hunt performs before Leveson, then decide his


future. But a lot could happen before then. We'll ask Lib Dem


Culture spokesman Don Foster who he's backing in the hunt for Hunt.


Hunt's tormentor-in-chief has been Labour Deputy Leader Harriet Harman,


who joins us for the Sunday Interview. She'll tell us what's at


stake for Labour when London, Glasgow and councils around the UK


go to the polls on Thursday. And how do you get out of an


omnishambles? Don't know? Well, we've been asking around


Westminster for tips. Always happy to help.


On Sunday Politics Scotland - strong words for the UK Government


from Scotland's most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O'Brien.


would say many in our government have lost touch with that reality


of what is going on. Plus, former first minister Jack


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1536 seconds


McConnell begins legal action over Sir Alan Sugar's job is safe?


once you are appointed a peer... It is really not the issue. People are


not voting on Alan Sugar on third you have a particular problem in


the south. You have problems in Glasgow against the Nationals,


problems in London. Even when nationally you're doing incredibly


well in the polls, you have a problem in the south. Why should


people in the South vote for a party that boost Tony Blair?


party does not. You did, I was there. It was a tiny fraction of


the audience. I was there, it was more than a fraction. And the


leader did not slap them down. tiny fraction of the audience quite


wrongly, in my view and in the view of the rest of the conference,


Georg a reference to Tony Blair. For the rest of the conference,


anybody who said - we don't believe he should have been cheated. A let


me bring you back full circle. His report Murdoch -- is Rupert Murdoch


a fit and proper person to hold a licensing -- broadcasting licence


in the country? If I was examining it, of course, I would say no.


he should lose the 40% of BSkyB that he owns? If you would ask what


has gone on in that organisation, yes, I think he is not a fit and


proper person. Widespread criminality went on within his


organisation. Thank you for being Good afternoon and welcome to


Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:


Cardinal Keith O'Brien tells the Prime Minister he is immoral in


putting the interests of his wealthy colleagues before the needs


of ordinary families. It is immoral. It is not moral to ignore them and


say they should struggle along and the rich can go on sailing it in


their own sweet way. As local election day looms, how


will voters rank candidates in Edinburgh, which is shaping up to


be one of the most closely fought contests in the country?


The former first minister Jack McConnell confirms he is taking


legal action over alleged phone hacking.


And I will be looking at why more and more families are going hungry


and turning to charities for help. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has accused


the Prime Minister of protecting the very wealthiest in society at


the expense of ordinary families. The leader of Scotland's Catholics


has written to David Cameron asking him to implement the so called


Robin Hood Tax. The chancellor George Osbourne has


described the levy on financial transactions as economic suicide.


But in an exclusive interview with our correspondent David Miller,


Cardinal O'Brien says the Prime Minister is out of touch and the


government's attitude is immoral, ignoring working people and letting


the rich go on in their own sweet way. My message to David Cameron as


head of our government is to seriously think again about this


Robin Hood tax, the tax to help the poor by taking a little bit from


the rich. I am asking him to consider a moral question facing


our country at this present time. The poor had suffered tremendously


from financial disasters in recent years, and nothing has been done by


the very rich people to help them. I am saying to the Prime Minister,


don't just protect your very rich colleagues in the financial


industry. Consider your moral obligation to help the poor of the


country. In your letter to the Prime Minister, you write "it is


not acceptable for your government to protect the very wealthiest


people in our country at the expense of the poor". In your view,


is the position adopted by the Prime Minister moral? Basically, I


would say no. The poor have suffered so much in recent years,


and when I say poor, I don't mean the abject poverty that we


sometimes see in our streets. Yes, obviously, they are affected, but I


mean people who would think themselves reasonably well-off,


people who have saved for their pensions and now realised their


pension funds are no more, people who are considering having to give


up their retirement homes. Poverty affecting young couples and their


children and so on. It is these people who have had to suffer


because of the financial disasters of recent years and it is immoral,


not moral, to just ignore them and to say "struggle along, and the


rich can go on sailing in their own sweet way". We are reading more and


more about the way it there are more disasters facing us


financially, and we have just got to be prepared to help those who


are less able to help themselves. used suggesting that the Prime


Minister and his councillor -- Chancellor are out of touch with


the common man, the needs of the man and woman in the street?


would say many in our government, and I think the Prime Minister,


they have lost touch with what is going on. I remember when Pope


Benedict XVI was here speaking to our leaders in Westminster. He said,


don't be afraid of religion, don't be frightened of what other fakes


are saying to you, to those in positions of responsibility. I


would like to think that we are closer to grass roots goings-on


than the Prime Minister and the government. How would the poor


benefit from the introduction of a tax which the government tells us


would result in fewer jobs being created in the UK and investments


in going overseas? I don't think it would reduce growth and cost jobs.


That would go on as normal. I think we have to remember this is an


extra income to our country. It would help growth because of that,


and would be providing money for those sorts of things that I


indicated before - better schools, better healthcare and so one.


Consequently, that would happen. Of course, there's an increase to the


growth, the economic growth, of our country, Beth there is always that


moral issue as well. As well as helping the economic situation, we


have to consider the morality of what is right and wrong. There


appears to be no prospect of a global deal on the introduction of


a Robin Hood tax, a financial transaction tax. You really believe


the UK could afford to go it alone on this? Yes, I binned it can. I


know there had been plans -- I know it can. Those plans haven't come to


anything yet, but I know individual countries such as France and


Hungary are seriously considering whether to implement this type of


tax in their own countries. I would like to think that the United


Kingdom would be able to give some sort of leadership in that as well


with our own form of this financial transaction tax. You want to see at


least half of the money raised through the introduction of this


tax spent internationally, for example, tackling the effects of


climate change. When to be difficult to convince the poorest


people in our own society that that would be a good use of the money at


a time when people here are suffering so much? Well, you are


helping the poor people overseas as well as poor people in our own


country. To help them realise the morality of what is going on - no


man is an island. It is not just in our own islands that there is


suffering at this present time. I have had the opportunity to travel


to many countries in the world in which there is poverty. In January,


I was in Haiti, and you know something of the poverty there. In


African countries like Rwanda and southern Sudan, there are places


where there are abject levels of poverty and it is reassuring for


our people to think that as a result of this tax, not just better


schools and hospitals or whatever, but we are helping to alleviate


something of that abject hunger and poverty in other countries. Finally,


you are sending a powerful message to the Prime Minister on behalf of


the Catholic Church in Scotland. It is a message we have heard from


other churches as well, from charities. Do you believe the Prime


Minister is listening? I don't think they are listening yet. Here


in Scotland, here in Edinburgh, charities and other agencies have


taken a tremendous lead in that campaign to Make Poverty History.


We have not yet made poverty history. Because we haven't been


doing what we promised - governments have not been doing


what they promised. This is one relatively small and easy and


painless way in which we are taking a step along that road of making


poverty history. I am calling up to David Cameron and the members of


our government to see what we can really do in this very, very


effective way at this present time to take another little step along


that road of making poverty history. Poverty in our own country and


poverty throughout the world. Cardinal Keith O'Brien talking


there. In response to criticisms that he


doesn't understand the difficulties that people are facing at the


moment, the Prime Minister had this to say on the Andrew Marr Show this


morning. I understand a difficult it is for people in this country


right now. Petrol and diesel at these prices, I understand how


difficult it is when you have job losses in the public sector and you


need the private sector to expand faster. I understand those


difficulties, that is what fires me up and get me out of bed - to get


hard -- to work hard, to do the right thing. We need to focus on


the things they need to be done. We did ask for an interview with


the Treasury, but were told nobody was available. We then asked for an


interview with anyone from the UK Government, but, again, nobody was


available. We then asked whether any Liberal Democrat or Tory MP


would like to join us, but they were also all unable to do so. I'm


joined here by Labour's Cathy Jamieson, who is a member of the


Shadow Treasury team, and from Dundee, by the SNP's Treasury


spokesperson at Westminster, Stewart Hosie. Thank you for coming


in. Stewart Hosie, do you agree that David Cameron is a moral in


not imposing his Robin Hood tax? certainly agree the Cardinal is


right to speak out. I agree with much of what he said. In terms of


what we have seen it in the last few weeks, changes to tax credits


so people can't find extra hours to work, 4.4 million pensioners being


worse off, people being taxed at a 40 p were rate. When the cardinal


speaks about morality, I think I understand what he's saying.


right now, the SNP does not support the introduction of this tax.


are very keen to see a financial transaction tax. But if it is not


done globally, it offers some very real dangers and I think the point


I would make his that if the UK Government is serious they should


be advocating for this to be done on a global basis, rather than


simply dismissing it. Yes, we need guarantees that jobs will be


protected, but that means we need to work together to advocate for


this to happen globally. Stewart Hosie, already, people are


saying that America will never agree to this. We know that there


has been support for a Europe wide decision on this. Would that be


enough? Would you be comfortable if it was throughout Europe? Well, it


is difficult because the financial markets are genuinely global. I


will go back to what I said before - we should be advocating, same to


the United States, and others, that this is a really good thing to do.


It must happen internationally, let us not just dismiss it because it


isn't happening in America. But if it doesn't, would it work in


Europe? Would you be satisfied with a Europe-wide levy? Well, you would


have to look and see exactly what that might be. None of us know, and


that is because there are another - - in number of variations on this.


You would have to look extremely carefully to make sure there is no


damage done. Cathy Jamieson, you support the levying of this tax on


financial transactions, personally. I have supported that for a number


of years. I think in this instance there is more agreement between


Stewart Hosie and myself then people would anticipate. I do think


there are dangers if this is not done on a global scale. But this is


a very powerful intervention from the cardinal, who is making it


clear that the policies of the UK Government are hitting families and


people who perhaps in the past would have thought of themselves as


being reasonably well off. It is having a real impact on family life.


So let's look at what can be done and how we can advocate for this


financial transactions tax to insure it helps people not just at


home but also in some of the world's poorest countries. So do


you agree that David Cameron is a moral in not implementing this?


would be good to see David Cameron looking and being a bit more in


touch with the realities of life for ordinary families. I don't


think there is anything he has said that has persuaded me that you


really understand what it is like to be a low-paid, part-time worker


who has just lost about �4,000 a year in their tax credits. So there


we can really understand what you're saying here, we know that Ed


Balls the shadow chancellor has said he would be economic suicide


to introduce this tax, he said it should not be introduced unless it


is global. Are you are doing that it could stand alone in the UK?


would like to see done on a global basis. It is an opportunity to


protect... But if it isn't? Well, I don't think we should give up on


that argument. That is also what the Cardinal was saying. The UK


Government should take a lead on this. When this was previously


proposed across Europe, it would have been used to plug the eurozone


crisis. That is not really what the fundamental principles of this tax


are about. Let's push for this to be done on a global basis. But we


know already the door is slightly open in Europe. Could it were just


in Europe? I know everybody is saying it would be easiest and most


effective with least prospect of damaged if it were global, but, as


we say, many people have said that America is never going to sign up


to this. So, accepting that, could Are willing to cede more broadly


than the UK and because many companies would it take their, --


their actions out of the UK and avoid paying it. It is important


that the UK Government takes the lead on this. There are things they


could do now to help was families the Cardinal was talking about,


restoring the cuts to the working tax credit and not giving


millionaires the tax cuts they have given them in this budget. We have


been saying it would be damaging and billions could be lost and go


offshore to avoid paying this tax, but economists have signed a letter


saying this would not necessarily be the outcome. To whom do you


think we need to speak now and what evidence which you like to see


coming forward? We need to speak to all of those bodies engaged in


these precise financial transactions. Economists have said


one thing, but the businesses who engage in buying and selling every


day may say something different. One can easily see and envisage a


situation where a certain section of Trade and trading is taken off


shore. It is taken to a country which has not signed up. I agree


with cafe, that could leave us with less revenue to fund core services


which would be the worst of all solutions. Her f economists say


that, for example, a researcher for JP Morgan said, I Robin Hood tax


could be good for the economy but the net effect is likely to be plus


a quarter of a percent. There is conflicting evidence out there.


This is true. Therefore, we must not rule things out and continue


the fight. The cardinal talked about the morality of this. It will


cap the living conditions of some of the poorest people in the world,


it is important we get the developing countries to sign up and


take their share of the responsibility. That is why I


support this as a global tax. you very much. We understand this


morning, the former First Minister, Jack McConnell, has confirmed he is


taking legal actions against allegations of his phone being


hacked, what is the extent of this, do you think? I think it is


shocking that the First Minister of Scotland had his phone hacked. I


feel for Jack and his family having to go through this process. We have


a revolution today in the lines of the Leveson Inquiry. Are you


shocked by this revelation? And I am appalled. We had the original


reports and there were thousands of deter breaches. The real tragedy


for me is that this was not dealt with much sooner. We're now in a


position where all this is unravelling. When the original


report was published, that would have been a better place today if


action had been taking. It is appalling. I hope the Prime


Minister will make any representations he can. Hopefully,


Mr Salmond will see he cannot defend any of this. I did suspect


that she might say that. She won I want to apologise for the 18


meetings Labour leaders had with Rupert Murdoch, after the original


report was on Gordon Brown's desk. I would rather we got to the bottom


of this and clean up the whole culture of the media. Thank you


very much. Now while much attention has been on the local election race


in Glasgow, another close contest is taking place in the Capital.


Just remember the backdrop - a tram project years behind schedule and


massively over budget - turning famous streets into virtual no-go


areas and Edinburgh into a laughing stock. And then recurring


allegations of fraud and corruption by city officials over housing


repairs. So what will all this mean when the voters go to the polls? We


have the key players here but first here's Christine MacLeod. Young


voters in Edinburgh, preparing to rank their candidates in order of


preference. The City is one of the most politically divided in


Scotland. Is killer cat that 2007 local elections in the city, each


of the main parties got one fifth of the first vote. -- if you look


at. The Greens do well in the city. Edinburgh is the one place in


Scotland work all five of the largest parties do relatively well.


These young apprentices are urging their Peers to vote to insure their


voices are heard. If I can manage to get across my Bewes... Came of


it elderly. They get treated fairly badly. -- keel of the elderly.


trams and the destruction they have caused. Anger over the trans has


been a constant feature in the media, but this translates as a


vote against the Liberal-Democrats? Trans is still one of the biggest


talking points in Edinburgh, but the parties are not likely to say


anything different about them, they all want to get the scheme


completed as quickly as possible and for as little money. It is


difficult to know what voters who are angry about the trans can do.


It is almost neutralised. This election is taking place under the


PR voting system. That means any bargaining which takes place


between the parties after the election, could be as crucial as


the campaigning beforehand. After the election, no one party will


have a majority so there will have to seek partners for an


administration. The Greens was -- will play an important role in that.


So, it is the guess of anyone what will happen here. Whatever the


outcome, the voters want to know whether their calls for change or


will be heard. So with me now are the leaders of the four main


parties at Edinburgh City Council. In the studio for the SNP is Steve


Cardownie, for Labour - Andrew Burns. And in Edinburgh for the


Liberal Democrats we have Jenny Dawe and for the Conservatives,


Jeremy Balfour. We are grateful for your time. You with a former


council leader, when you look back at your tenure, are you proud of


the way you serve the citizens of Edinburgh? Yes, I am. It has been a


challenging five years but I can look back and show that I believed


Edinburgh is a better place, thanks to the Liberal Democrat policies we


put in place and thanks to the way that coalition administration has


taken a tough decisions we had to take. Regrets, have you had a few?


Obviously, things could have worked out better as regards the trams. We


have now turned that around. We now have a project going to St Andrews


Square. There are some issues which might have been better if they had


worked out rather more quickly, however we took tough decisions


which brought us to where we want to be now. Obviously, the SNP were


in coalition in previous councils with the Lib Dems. D Rigby that


work better than you expected? it worked better than we thought.


It lasted five years. Our position on the trams were clear. The other


parties were in favour of trams. There is probably two other major


issues in the five years when we differ substantially from the


Liberal-Democrats, but we have been through it. Lasting for five years


is testimony to the way the leadership worked, but the way all


the people within the Liberal- Democrats and the SNP work hard


together to get policies through. So, you could do it all again with


the Lib Dems if you needed to? could do. We hope we and in a


position where we will be in the driving seat. We ought to be the


senior partner in any coalition. Quite a lot of the chatter Today


newspapers has been that an interesting coalition would be


between Labour and SNP, could you work together? I would not have a


problem with that, I used to be in the Labour Party -- Steve used to


be in the Labour Party. He used to be a colleague and I would have no


problem with working with any of the parties in Edinburgh. The


voters are in the driving seat. were at the transport convener in


2007 when the trams project contract was signed. The condition


subsequently unravelled spectacularly. Have you ever


apologise for that? What you have said is not quite correct. The


final contract was not signed until 2008. All five parties in Edinburgh


signed up to that. It was a year after the elections and into


Jenny's administration. We all have a degree of responsibility for this


project which is why we have called for the last cheer for an


independent public inquiry to happen as quickly as possible.


you have apologised for your part in it? A absolutely, we all have a


share in it. Jeremy Balfour, you have been emphasising the key role


that Council plays in providing services. Do you think it


inevitable that some services will have to go out to private


contractors? I am not sure they have to go out to private


contractors, we could work in partnership with business to make


sure it the services are provided in the most efficient way. We have


to look at an admixture of modules here in Edinburgh. Some can be done


in-house, some in partnership with others. That is already happening


in Edinburgh, for example under a former Labour administration. I


think that has worked reasonably well. This could work well in the


future. But you do envisage there will be more private sector


involvement in providing frontline services for the council? I think,


the voluntary organisations have a role to play and business


organisations have a role to play. We need a working partnership to


make sure that service is provided are provided efficiently and well.


I do not think people in Edinburgh provide -- mind to provides the


services as long as it is done well and efficiently. Is that true?


think most people would prefer services to be provided by public


sector employees. However, they want value for money. When we did


not vote for the scheme to hive off some services to the private sector,


it was not on the basis that the status quo would prevail. There had


to be changes. That has happened so we it are more efficient now. I


think people respect the fact that people joined the public sector to


provide services for the citizens of the city. They would prefer to


retain his services there but the public sector has to look at the


private sector and take on lessons from them and bring them in into


the private -- the public sector. This will make sure people get


value for money. Do you agree? ideal. There are ways that the


private sector can be involved, whether it is over and gas or


electricity provision. What was proposed under Jenny's leadership


was to put out to private sector over 3,000 of the council jobs


minus 20 % of the council work force. A lot were Front Line


service functions which we opposed right from the outset. We opposed


it as well. The SNP said no, this is a step too far and we retain the


jobs. For �4 million worth the money was spent. We do still back


that volume of work going out to private contractors? People in the


City want services provided in as efficient and effective a way as


possible and get best value for money. It was not privatisation or


putting services out to the private sector which is being described. It


was much more of a partnership with the private sector. Particularly on


the environmental services were extreme, there were good reasons to


have gone with that model of working in the future. That is what


my group wanted on the council. We started from the premise that


public services are in general best provided by public servants.


However, we had to look at quality of services and cost. After a long


period of negotiation, we thought the environmental services in


particular was where we could have worked in partnership with the


private sector but we did not lose control of the strategy or policy.


To be clear, were you to have any influence in the next Council, you


would want to be introduced that model? I think that the moment has


passed. Over two years were spent negotiating with different private


sector organisations and works streams. I do not think we would be


revisiting it in that form, but I think we have to look at the best


way to provide services and that might be working in social


enterprises, with the voluntary and private sector. We have to look at


what gives us best value but what does not detract from the quality


Jeremy, is it inevitable that people will have to pay more for


their transport? I don't think that is necessarily true. We have in �1


million budget in Edinburgh and we're looking to make sure that


budget is done most efficiently. One of our key commitments is to go


for budgeting in 2013. We believe offices can find back room savings


which can then be put into front line services. That will release


money which means that the services we provide at the moment can be


done efficiently and also within that �1 billion budget. You must


regret the level of debt with which you that she had told the council -


- you have saddled the council? Well, the debt is �1.5 billion. It


was only �900 million in 2007 when Labour left office. It has gone up


by 66% since May 2007. It it has gone up under SNP leadership.


we talk about the millions that are lost out there to people in


Edinburgh who were listening to this, when you say it was bad


underwriters but worse and others, many people find does -- find that


a rather fatuous argument. They just want to make sure you don't


make those mistakes in the future. It is important to stress the


project has spiralled out of control under the current


leadership. The level of debt has gone up by 66%. And that was not


because of a large loopholes in the original agreement you signed?


did not sign up. That was signed on 1st May, a year after this Lib Dem.


Well, you negotiated it then. mean, Andrew is being a bit


disingenuous about the tram project. Three times, the SNP called for it


to be scrapped, and once for a referendum. We were outvoted by


other parties. We did not oppose the signing of the contract because


we were persuaded that the council should remain united when faced


with signing a contract with a consortium. We lost argument over


the business case. I don't really blame councillors for agreeing with


the contract, I blame that advice that we got, because we had legal


advice that these contracts were good. I remember somebody saying


they were too many checks and balances in the contract for it to


be dangerous. So I think councillors were badly misled.


Ultimately, you have a duty to make sure you are satisfied, you satisfy


yourselves. Indeed, I think the councillors from all parties asked


relevant questions, week -- we had some very highly paid officials who


were not at the top of their game. It is very bad form to blame your


officials. Well, that is the case here. We were advised to sign the


contracts by officials with legal expertise who told us they will


watertight. That has turned out not to be the case. Jenny, can I ask


you how much you regret the fact that Edinburgh council is now


associated with allegations of corruption and fraud by council


officials? I think every councillor must greatly regret that fact. What


is important now is that this investigation which is under way


continues, and that the internal investigation, which is also


continuing, routes out all the problems that there have been. Of


course, none of us wish to be in a situation where we found that


officials of the council had not acted in as honest a way as they


should have done. Jeremy, do you accept that in the public mind this


may speak to incompetence by councillors who are supposed to be


in charge of running the council? Yes, I recognise that perhaps most


people in Edinburgh don't make the distinction between what


councillors do and what are officers do. But I do agree, going


back to Steve's comment - we were given what we thought was very good


advice, good commercial advice, before we signed the contract. I


think that advice was wrong and I do think that is why we should call


for a public inquiry, so we can find out what went wrong, why the


advice given to council was wrong. Clearly, hindsight is a great thing,


but if I could go back, I would not sign the contract that was put in


front of us on the information that I now know. But I did not know that


at the time. These counsellors can any make decisions on the


information that we have. I believe all councillors from every party


did ask the right questions, and I think in regard to the property


repair things, one problem which may have occurred is there was a


lack of political involvement. Perhaps we need to make sure that


politicians are involved in getting the right information and making


the decisions. Thank you very much, all of you. We'll leave it there.


And if you'd like to read more about the local government


elections, you can visit the BBC Scotland news website and click on


the Vote 2012 link for more information.


A UK charity which provides food to people in need said this week it's


seen a massive rise in the numbers seeking help. The Trussell Trust


fed more than 100,000 people last year - up more than 60% on the year


before. The charity runs a network for food banks where people can get


emergency food parcels. It intends to open up 40 more of these food


banks in Scotland by 2015. But should people have to rely no the


state for something as basis as food? Gilly Mathieson reports.


Every can, carton and shopping bank here is for those who cannot afford


to eat. Two food banks are opening every week in the UK because more


and more families say they need them. It is a three-day supply of


food, about 10 meals were. Steve and Barbara were living from


Steve's salary as a security guard until he became sick in January.


Before Christmas, new year, we were roughly anything from �1,000 to


�1,500 a month. By the end of February, we got �350. That was


statutory sick pay. You have a full rent to pay, council tax to pay,


gas and electric. You can't do that all of this amount of money. It was


the situation. They are not alone. Last year, the number of people fed


by the banks doubled. One charity, which is expanding its food banks


across Scotland, says the rise is due to what is happening in the


economy. We anticipate the situation is going to get worse. It


is a very sad reality. People who are on low incomes, the food price


inflation is making their ability to buy the necessary Kurds to keep


the whole family -- the necessary goods to keep the whole family show


on the road is higher than ever before. A benefit support is being


cut. Dave is a volunteer at the Dundee food bank. They are


struggling until they get paid again on Tuesday. This is emergency


food to keep them going. Food here is donated by individuals,


supermarkets and local schools. Vouchers are given out by local


organisations like the Citizens' Advice Bureau. Williams says he has


not eaten for over a week. He is in debt, and for every �90 a week he


gets and benefits, he uses �80 to pay off his debt. If it was not for


this discovery, I would not be year. I would be in the hospital, I this


daft or dead. The coalition government says help is there.


either starved or dead. The idea that we should have charity food


banks as a replacement of the welfare system is a very worrying


development. We are already concerned that we are seeing


Jobcentres referring families. charity scene had they will have 40


more the banks in Scotland by 2014. -- hopes. But, his charity the


answer, or should the state be stepping in. Joining me now from


our Dundee studio is Ewan Gurr - a regional organiser for the Trussell


Trust and in Oxford we have Professor Liz Dowler, who works in


food and social policy at the University of Warwick. Thank you


for joining us. Firstly, who is coming to that the banks in


Scotland? We are seeing a rise in the proportion of people who are in


work or who have just been made redundant. Steve and Barbara are by


no means an isolated case. We are seeing a lot of families who are


hard-working, real grafters, who have just found themselves in a


situation of absolute clap -- absolute crisis. And who is giving


you the feud? It comes from a variety of sources. Church as Cesar


-- churches give us a lot of food. One of the things we do well his


work with supermarkets to do supermarket collections. So the


community, essentially, is buying the foot for the project. We then


provided to people in need. So it is the community supporting the


community. And you see more and more people will be in need?


will see an increase over the next the years and we have done already,


particularly in Dundee. There's been an increase every year, and it


doesn't seem to be declining, so, for that reason, I think there is


going to be an increase in nationally. Liz, do you have


reservations about this sort of intervention? Yes, I do. I am not


remotely against compassion and generosity - how could I be? It is


essential that people are enabled to help those in need. But I am


extremely, not just worried, I am actually quite angry about the idea


that expanding food banks is going to be the answer to this problem. I


mean, there are nearly one million people in Scotland already living


in poverty. There is no way that the banks can address their needs.


And the more that food banks are talked of or there is an


implication that they are run answer to the problem, the more


they prevent the government and society in general from having


serious conversations. So you think the state is let off the hook? What


part of state support is failing? Is it the structure of benefits


coming out of Westminster, is it wage levels? It is both those


things. There is very consistent work from social policy research


bodies with good solid methods for looking at what a minimum income


standard is. His work has been going on for many years, and for


the past three years it has been very apparent how far short most


benefits and the national minimum wage for all from what people


actually need to be able to live. And certainly to be able to feed


themselves. And it is worse than that, because benefits and the wage


are up rated either by the Retail Price Index or the Consumer Price


Index, both of which do not reflect the real increases in the price of


foot, which play a much bigger part in the budget for people on low


incomes. So in fact things are getting worse and worse and there


is no way the government should not be aware of this. What do you make


of that argument, that we have got to the stage now where some


professionals are referring people to the food banks, in some ways


they are becoming institutionalised, and that by enabling us, you allow


the government off the hook? Caddie respond? I hear what you're saying


and I here. -- how do you respond? I agree with a lot of what Liz said


there. The two things we do not want to do is to create a


dependency culture and to subsidise chaotic living. But unfortunately


the way I see it is that I am not accountable for what the government


isn't doing. I'm accountable for what I am doing. And I feel I have


a responsibility to respond to need. And I don't see a great deal of


provision for people who are in need at this moment. So I


understand where Liz is coming from and I don't believe food banks can


address the issues, but I do believe that we can do something to


effect change in people's lives. Liz, today we interviewed Cardinal


Keith O'Brien, and he has said he feels David Cameron is immoral in


not imposing a Robin Hood tax. He feels he is out of touch with


ordinary people while his wealthy friends are going on their own


sweet way. Do you agree with that? I have a lot of sympathy with him,


I must admit. I am not a politician, nor am I a campaigner. I am an


academic. Nevertheless, I think it is hard to hold your head up and


justified the way our economy is running at the moment. I work


internationally and I can see examples in other countries where


there is a commitment from the top to a much more just way of enabling


Thank you very much. If you would like to hear more on the subject of


food banks, you can tune into BBC Scotland investigate this at 4:30pm.


How are things which you? We really do care and that is what our size


correspondent wants to know. hello, how were you feeling it? --


Science Correspondent. Here where operating at Strathclyde University


to test the mood of the nation. -- we are co-operating. Think of it as


an on-line quiz. We wanted to do something different from a


traditional survey on political attitudes. We wanted to find a way


to engage people in the research process and get a sense of, how do


you feel when you are asked some of these questions? What is your mood?


How are the current situation splaying out in your world? We also


wanted a sense of whether it is the same in all the different parts of


the United Kingdom. We are living in challenging times, it is at the


same in Scotland as it is in Northern Ireland? Do some things


make people mad in England which they're quite happy about in


Scotland or Wales? The everyone who takes the quiz will get an instant


personalise result and we will bring you the national results once


they had been calculated. Follow this link. That will take you


straight to the quiz which should not take long to complete. You will


arrive at a map, choose the place she left, follow the survey from


there. -- you've left. It is a bit of fun and a way to show how we do


academic research and get quick results. They would get a quick


result when they finished the question here and it will tell them


where they fit into the general picture. The researchers say all


submissions are anonymous. No information will be stored. If you


want to tell us how you feel, the link is... Now onto the lunchtime


news. Good afternoon. Lord McConnell -


the former First Minister - has said he's taking legal action over


allegations of phone hacking by the News of the world. Lord McConnell


said police had told him he was among the potential victims of the


scandal. He has confirmed that he and his family are speaking to


solicitors. Meanwhile, the Labour Party has called for a formal


examination of the role of the Scottish government adviser and his


dealings with News Corporation. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has said he


believes the Prime Minister is behaving immorally by putting the


needs of the rich ahead of those of the poor.


But David Cameron says he understands how difficult times are


for families. The Cardinal has long championed the very poorest in


society. He says these are people lower once well-off - young


families, workers and pensioners. Do not just protect all wage you


very rich colleagues in the financial industry. Consider your


moral obligation to help the poor in our country. The Prime Minister


says he understands but tough decisions me to be taken.


understand, that is what fires me up and gets near to bend to work


hard and do the right thing for the country. The curdle says he backs


the campaign for a card -- for a Robin Hood tax on the financial


sector which will raise �20 billion every year. The head of the


Highland Spring Water firm has once again been named as Scotland's


richest man in the Sunday Times Rich List.


Mahdi Al-Tajir's personal fortune stands at �1.6 billion. The total


number of Scots achieving billionaire status has risen from


two up to five. Sport now - and the last Old Firm


game of the season started at about half a year ago. Rangers are


playing Celtic at Celtic Park and the latest score there is Celtic 2-


Rangers nil. We'll have more coverage of that in our next update


at 6:15pm this evening. Tender the weather. Hello there, we're


starting to see a downhill trend in the says. Cloud wind and rain


the says. Cloud wind and rain across southern regions. The


northern regions hold on to the sunshine for longest, clouding up


in the south with a strong north- easterly breeze. Cooler with the


cloud. The rain moves north overnight and fizzles out in the


north and east, improving in the south with sunshine coming through


and feeling warmer. That's it for and feeling warmer. That's it for


and feeling warmer. That's it for now. Goodbye. First, let us take a


look back at the week in 60 seconds. The SFA fined and imposed a


transfer ban on Rangers for rule- breaking link to the club's


financial meltdown. An international election experts


reviewed the Holyrood election in 2007 and recommended the


independence referendum dump contained only one question. Donald


Trump went before a Scottish committee. He was assured an


offshore wind firm would not be built near his golf report, he said.


A I invested my money based on statements which were made to me,


so what they did was lower in the end, I spent his money and now I


might regret it. Alex Salmond and Jack McConnell said they did not


give assurances. The First Minister and denied any impropriety in his


relationship with Rupert Murdoch. James Murdoch told the inquiry Alex


Salmond had offered to lobby the UK Government on their behalf


supporting a bid to takeover BSkyB. Much to discuss today and we have


secured the services of the men in the know so stick with us.


Here in the studio we had journalist and lecturer Ewan


Crawford and in Edinburgh at the Scottish political editor of the


Daily Telegraph, Alan Cochrane. A pleasure to see both. Let us start


with their comments of the cardinal. I do not think it will be the


highest on David Cameron's list of priorities. He will pay attention


to what he said, but his main priority is to save his Culture


Secretary. I think he should have sacked 10 days ago. The other thing


about the Kano, he devalues it by the language he uses. He said David


Cameron is immoral. He has missed the bus on his project because, as


both Labour and SNP spokesman said earlier, attacks on financial


transactions would have to be global. If Britain did alone,


Edinburgh and London would lose hand over fist. To clarify, he said


David Cameron and his ministers in their approach in opposing this


were immoral. Will people say it is appropriate for someone in the


position of the cardinal to make these comments? I am not sure what


people will say about the cardinal. I think his over-the-top remarks


had devalued everything he has said in recent years. I understand what


he is saying about Colin individuals immoral. If he had made


-- used different language, forensic she were talking about


food banks earlier and the Sunday Times Rich List where the rich are


getting even richer, so there is clearly an issue with inequality,


so if he is raising those issues that is a good thing but sometimes


language and politics in this country can obscure things. Do you


not think that the clamour is so loud that unless you say something


very striking, unless you make comments which get headlines, you


will not get the coverage you actually feel is required? I think


that is reasonable. Had been a journalist and also try to get


publicity. -- I have been. If he is raising the issue of inequality,


that is a massive and growing issue and he should be congratulated on


it. Whether we should call individuals immoral, I am not sure.


Do you think Jeremy Hunt will survive? I am not sure. He should


not. He is responsible for the actions of his special adviser at


the same way Alex Salmond is responsible for his special adviser,


Geoff Aberdein. Kowtowing with a slick man. Geoff is a good guy, I


talk to him about it all but he should not be talking to Robert


Mark duck. Adams neck resigned. -- Adams Smith resigned. And he should


be out as well. As a former adviser, it seems extraordinary that the


this individual off his own bat without any knowledge of his boss,


was engaged in these long conversations with their Murdoch


organisation. As seems a bit hard to believe. There is no suggestion,


with SNP, and that they were doing anything other than they said they


were doing. This has caused this to huge a row this week that they


genuinely thought this would be a good deal for Scotland. There is no


sense that the adviser went rogue. Come on, you would be telling you


students to get towed into this story about Geoff Aberdein telling


the man from then use of the world, that he would do anything and say


anything to help the BSkyB bid. What is Alex Salmond say now about


his pal Robert Murdoch, the First Minister of Scotland being hacked?


Why has it taken nine years for this to emerge from Strathclyde


Police? Dead a know about it? are allegations at this stage. --


did they know about it? In terms of Scotland, are you surprised it


seems like every investigation into this suggests him problems stop at


the border? Is that credible? do not think the problem did stop


at the border. I think he was a lot more prevalent a, the phone hacking,


than elsewhere. I think it is more than an allegation, if I make so


bold, there story of Jack we can all. This endemic problem of the


Murdoch empire is one that the first men -- the First Minister is


glibly brushing aside, he says everyone was doing it. Everyone was


not doing it but the main culprits were his friends, Rupert Murdoch


employees. House in the Hindi using this is, the jack McConnell


development today? -- how significant easing the says. I do


not think anyone in their right mind would defend the First


Minister having his phone hacked. In terms of politics, I am not sure


what the implications are. This happened in the past and is


completely wrong. We have the Leveson Inquiry at the moment and


will see the Press Complaints Commission abolished and we are


seeing a criminal inquiry, so there are wider implications than in


terms of just specifically Scotland. Other than to say, it is a total


disgrace. A important news - Ross County has been -- have been


promoted, I expect you are thrilled? I was an Inverness


Thistle fan. You can come back then. I am a Hearts supporter, so I am


looking forward to the next couple of weeks. But you are thrilled


about Ross County? I had been celebrating four days. You have


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.

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