29/04/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


29/04/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman.


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Afternoon folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:38.

David Cameron puts his Culture Secretary on probation this morning.

:00:38.:00:41.

He'll see how Jeremy Hunt performs before Leveson, then decide his

:00:41.:00:46.

future. But a lot could happen before then. We'll ask Lib Dem

:00:46.:00:52.

Culture spokesman Don Foster who he's backing in the hunt for Hunt.

:00:52.:00:54.

Hunt's tormentor-in-chief has been Labour Deputy Leader Harriet Harman,

:00:54.:00:59.

who joins us for the Sunday Interview. She'll tell us what's at

:00:59.:01:01.

stake for Labour when London, Glasgow and councils around the UK

:01:02.:01:08.

go to the polls on Thursday. And how do you get out of an

:01:08.:01:11.

omnishambles? Don't know? Well, we've been asking around

:01:11.:01:21.
:01:21.:01:22.

Westminster for tips. Always happy to help.

:01:22.:01:25.

On Sunday Politics Scotland - strong words for the UK Government

:01:25.:01:32.

from Scotland's most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O'Brien.

:01:32.:01:37.

would say many in our government have lost touch with that reality

:01:37.:01:39.

of what is going on. Plus, former first minister Jack

:01:39.:01:49.
:01:49.:01:49.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1536 seconds

:01:49.:27:26.

McConnell begins legal action over Sir Alan Sugar's job is safe?

:27:26.:27:30.

once you are appointed a peer... It is really not the issue. People are

:27:30.:27:36.

not voting on Alan Sugar on third you have a particular problem in

:27:36.:27:40.

the south. You have problems in Glasgow against the Nationals,

:27:40.:27:44.

problems in London. Even when nationally you're doing incredibly

:27:44.:27:49.

well in the polls, you have a problem in the south. Why should

:27:49.:27:58.

people in the South vote for a party that boost Tony Blair?

:27:58.:28:04.

party does not. You did, I was there. It was a tiny fraction of

:28:04.:28:10.

the audience. I was there, it was more than a fraction. And the

:28:10.:28:15.

leader did not slap them down. tiny fraction of the audience quite

:28:15.:28:18.

wrongly, in my view and in the view of the rest of the conference,

:28:18.:28:23.

Georg a reference to Tony Blair. For the rest of the conference,

:28:23.:28:33.
:28:33.:28:36.

anybody who said - we don't believe he should have been cheated. A let

:28:36.:28:45.

me bring you back full circle. His report Murdoch -- is Rupert Murdoch

:28:45.:28:52.

a fit and proper person to hold a licensing -- broadcasting licence

:28:52.:28:57.

in the country? If I was examining it, of course, I would say no.

:28:57.:29:04.

he should lose the 40% of BSkyB that he owns? If you would ask what

:29:04.:29:08.

has gone on in that organisation, yes, I think he is not a fit and

:29:08.:29:13.

proper person. Widespread criminality went on within his

:29:13.:29:23.
:29:23.:29:30.

organisation. Thank you for being Good afternoon and welcome to

:29:30.:29:32.

Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:

:29:32.:29:34.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien tells the Prime Minister he is immoral in

:29:34.:29:37.

putting the interests of his wealthy colleagues before the needs

:29:37.:29:45.

of ordinary families. It is immoral. It is not moral to ignore them and

:29:45.:29:49.

say they should struggle along and the rich can go on sailing it in

:29:49.:29:53.

their own sweet way. As local election day looms, how

:29:53.:29:55.

will voters rank candidates in Edinburgh, which is shaping up to

:29:55.:29:59.

be one of the most closely fought contests in the country?

:29:59.:30:02.

The former first minister Jack McConnell confirms he is taking

:30:02.:30:07.

legal action over alleged phone hacking.

:30:07.:30:11.

And I will be looking at why more and more families are going hungry

:30:11.:30:15.

and turning to charities for help. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has accused

:30:15.:30:18.

the Prime Minister of protecting the very wealthiest in society at

:30:18.:30:20.

the expense of ordinary families. The leader of Scotland's Catholics

:30:20.:30:23.

has written to David Cameron asking him to implement the so called

:30:23.:30:29.

Robin Hood Tax. The chancellor George Osbourne has

:30:29.:30:32.

described the levy on financial transactions as economic suicide.

:30:32.:30:34.

But in an exclusive interview with our correspondent David Miller,

:30:34.:30:37.

Cardinal O'Brien says the Prime Minister is out of touch and the

:30:37.:30:39.

government's attitude is immoral, ignoring working people and letting

:30:39.:30:49.
:30:49.:30:52.

the rich go on in their own sweet way. My message to David Cameron as

:30:52.:30:57.

head of our government is to seriously think again about this

:30:57.:31:02.

Robin Hood tax, the tax to help the poor by taking a little bit from

:31:02.:31:07.

the rich. I am asking him to consider a moral question facing

:31:08.:31:14.

our country at this present time. The poor had suffered tremendously

:31:14.:31:19.

from financial disasters in recent years, and nothing has been done by

:31:19.:31:27.

the very rich people to help them. I am saying to the Prime Minister,

:31:27.:31:30.

don't just protect your very rich colleagues in the financial

:31:30.:31:34.

industry. Consider your moral obligation to help the poor of the

:31:34.:31:38.

country. In your letter to the Prime Minister, you write "it is

:31:38.:31:42.

not acceptable for your government to protect the very wealthiest

:31:42.:31:47.

people in our country at the expense of the poor". In your view,

:31:47.:31:53.

is the position adopted by the Prime Minister moral? Basically, I

:31:53.:31:58.

would say no. The poor have suffered so much in recent years,

:31:59.:32:05.

and when I say poor, I don't mean the abject poverty that we

:32:05.:32:10.

sometimes see in our streets. Yes, obviously, they are affected, but I

:32:10.:32:13.

mean people who would think themselves reasonably well-off,

:32:13.:32:18.

people who have saved for their pensions and now realised their

:32:18.:32:22.

pension funds are no more, people who are considering having to give

:32:22.:32:32.
:32:32.:32:32.

up their retirement homes. Poverty affecting young couples and their

:32:32.:32:36.

children and so on. It is these people who have had to suffer

:32:36.:32:41.

because of the financial disasters of recent years and it is immoral,

:32:41.:32:46.

not moral, to just ignore them and to say "struggle along, and the

:32:46.:32:53.

rich can go on sailing in their own sweet way". We are reading more and

:32:53.:32:56.

more about the way it there are more disasters facing us

:32:56.:33:01.

financially, and we have just got to be prepared to help those who

:33:01.:33:11.

are less able to help themselves. used suggesting that the Prime

:33:11.:33:14.

Minister and his councillor -- Chancellor are out of touch with

:33:14.:33:19.

the common man, the needs of the man and woman in the street?

:33:19.:33:26.

would say many in our government, and I think the Prime Minister,

:33:26.:33:31.

they have lost touch with what is going on. I remember when Pope

:33:31.:33:35.

Benedict XVI was here speaking to our leaders in Westminster. He said,

:33:35.:33:40.

don't be afraid of religion, don't be frightened of what other fakes

:33:40.:33:45.

are saying to you, to those in positions of responsibility. I

:33:45.:33:55.

would like to think that we are closer to grass roots goings-on

:33:55.:33:58.

than the Prime Minister and the government. How would the poor

:33:58.:34:02.

benefit from the introduction of a tax which the government tells us

:34:02.:34:08.

would result in fewer jobs being created in the UK and investments

:34:08.:34:13.

in going overseas? I don't think it would reduce growth and cost jobs.

:34:13.:34:18.

That would go on as normal. I think we have to remember this is an

:34:18.:34:24.

extra income to our country. It would help growth because of that,

:34:24.:34:28.

and would be providing money for those sorts of things that I

:34:28.:34:36.

indicated before - better schools, better healthcare and so one.

:34:36.:34:42.

Consequently, that would happen. Of course, there's an increase to the

:34:42.:34:46.

growth, the economic growth, of our country, Beth there is always that

:34:46.:34:50.

moral issue as well. As well as helping the economic situation, we

:34:50.:34:54.

have to consider the morality of what is right and wrong. There

:34:54.:34:59.

appears to be no prospect of a global deal on the introduction of

:34:59.:35:04.

a Robin Hood tax, a financial transaction tax. You really believe

:35:04.:35:10.

the UK could afford to go it alone on this? Yes, I binned it can. I

:35:10.:35:20.
:35:20.:35:23.

know there had been plans -- I know it can. Those plans haven't come to

:35:23.:35:27.

anything yet, but I know individual countries such as France and

:35:27.:35:32.

Hungary are seriously considering whether to implement this type of

:35:32.:35:36.

tax in their own countries. I would like to think that the United

:35:36.:35:40.

Kingdom would be able to give some sort of leadership in that as well

:35:40.:35:47.

with our own form of this financial transaction tax. You want to see at

:35:47.:35:52.

least half of the money raised through the introduction of this

:35:52.:35:57.

tax spent internationally, for example, tackling the effects of

:35:57.:36:00.

climate change. When to be difficult to convince the poorest

:36:00.:36:04.

people in our own society that that would be a good use of the money at

:36:04.:36:14.
:36:14.:36:15.

a time when people here are suffering so much? Well, you are

:36:15.:36:22.

helping the poor people overseas as well as poor people in our own

:36:22.:36:29.

country. To help them realise the morality of what is going on - no

:36:29.:36:33.

man is an island. It is not just in our own islands that there is

:36:33.:36:38.

suffering at this present time. I have had the opportunity to travel

:36:38.:36:44.

to many countries in the world in which there is poverty. In January,

:36:44.:36:48.

I was in Haiti, and you know something of the poverty there. In

:36:48.:36:58.
:36:58.:37:00.

African countries like Rwanda and southern Sudan, there are places

:37:00.:37:04.

where there are abject levels of poverty and it is reassuring for

:37:04.:37:08.

our people to think that as a result of this tax, not just better

:37:08.:37:14.

schools and hospitals or whatever, but we are helping to alleviate

:37:14.:37:20.

something of that abject hunger and poverty in other countries. Finally,

:37:20.:37:24.

you are sending a powerful message to the Prime Minister on behalf of

:37:24.:37:28.

the Catholic Church in Scotland. It is a message we have heard from

:37:28.:37:35.

other churches as well, from charities. Do you believe the Prime

:37:35.:37:41.

Minister is listening? I don't think they are listening yet. Here

:37:41.:37:48.

in Scotland, here in Edinburgh, charities and other agencies have

:37:48.:37:52.

taken a tremendous lead in that campaign to Make Poverty History.

:37:52.:37:58.

We have not yet made poverty history. Because we haven't been

:37:58.:38:02.

doing what we promised - governments have not been doing

:38:02.:38:07.

what they promised. This is one relatively small and easy and

:38:07.:38:14.

painless way in which we are taking a step along that road of making

:38:14.:38:23.

poverty history. I am calling up to David Cameron and the members of

:38:23.:38:27.

our government to see what we can really do in this very, very

:38:27.:38:31.

effective way at this present time to take another little step along

:38:31.:38:36.

that road of making poverty history. Poverty in our own country and

:38:36.:38:40.

poverty throughout the world. Cardinal Keith O'Brien talking

:38:40.:38:45.

there. In response to criticisms that he

:38:45.:38:47.

doesn't understand the difficulties that people are facing at the

:38:47.:38:51.

moment, the Prime Minister had this to say on the Andrew Marr Show this

:38:51.:38:58.

morning. I understand a difficult it is for people in this country

:38:58.:39:02.

right now. Petrol and diesel at these prices, I understand how

:39:02.:39:06.

difficult it is when you have job losses in the public sector and you

:39:06.:39:09.

need the private sector to expand faster. I understand those

:39:09.:39:14.

difficulties, that is what fires me up and get me out of bed - to get

:39:14.:39:23.

hard -- to work hard, to do the right thing. We need to focus on

:39:23.:39:28.

the things they need to be done. We did ask for an interview with

:39:28.:39:31.

the Treasury, but were told nobody was available. We then asked for an

:39:31.:39:34.

interview with anyone from the UK Government, but, again, nobody was

:39:34.:39:36.

available. We then asked whether any Liberal Democrat or Tory MP

:39:36.:39:40.

would like to join us, but they were also all unable to do so. I'm

:39:40.:39:43.

joined here by Labour's Cathy Jamieson, who is a member of the

:39:43.:39:46.

Shadow Treasury team, and from Dundee, by the SNP's Treasury

:39:46.:39:54.

spokesperson at Westminster, Stewart Hosie. Thank you for coming

:39:55.:39:58.

in. Stewart Hosie, do you agree that David Cameron is a moral in

:39:58.:40:03.

not imposing his Robin Hood tax? certainly agree the Cardinal is

:40:03.:40:07.

right to speak out. I agree with much of what he said. In terms of

:40:07.:40:11.

what we have seen it in the last few weeks, changes to tax credits

:40:11.:40:16.

so people can't find extra hours to work, 4.4 million pensioners being

:40:16.:40:24.

worse off, people being taxed at a 40 p were rate. When the cardinal

:40:24.:40:28.

speaks about morality, I think I understand what he's saying.

:40:28.:40:34.

right now, the SNP does not support the introduction of this tax.

:40:34.:40:39.

are very keen to see a financial transaction tax. But if it is not

:40:39.:40:44.

done globally, it offers some very real dangers and I think the point

:40:44.:40:49.

I would make his that if the UK Government is serious they should

:40:49.:40:52.

be advocating for this to be done on a global basis, rather than

:40:52.:40:57.

simply dismissing it. Yes, we need guarantees that jobs will be

:40:57.:41:01.

protected, but that means we need to work together to advocate for

:41:01.:41:09.

this to happen globally. Stewart Hosie, already, people are

:41:09.:41:14.

saying that America will never agree to this. We know that there

:41:14.:41:18.

has been support for a Europe wide decision on this. Would that be

:41:18.:41:24.

enough? Would you be comfortable if it was throughout Europe? Well, it

:41:24.:41:27.

is difficult because the financial markets are genuinely global. I

:41:28.:41:33.

will go back to what I said before - we should be advocating, same to

:41:33.:41:38.

the United States, and others, that this is a really good thing to do.

:41:38.:41:43.

It must happen internationally, let us not just dismiss it because it

:41:43.:41:47.

isn't happening in America. But if it doesn't, would it work in

:41:47.:41:52.

Europe? Would you be satisfied with a Europe-wide levy? Well, you would

:41:52.:41:56.

have to look and see exactly what that might be. None of us know, and

:41:56.:42:01.

that is because there are another - - in number of variations on this.

:42:01.:42:05.

You would have to look extremely carefully to make sure there is no

:42:05.:42:10.

damage done. Cathy Jamieson, you support the levying of this tax on

:42:10.:42:17.

financial transactions, personally. I have supported that for a number

:42:17.:42:20.

of years. I think in this instance there is more agreement between

:42:20.:42:24.

Stewart Hosie and myself then people would anticipate. I do think

:42:24.:42:29.

there are dangers if this is not done on a global scale. But this is

:42:29.:42:33.

a very powerful intervention from the cardinal, who is making it

:42:33.:42:37.

clear that the policies of the UK Government are hitting families and

:42:37.:42:41.

people who perhaps in the past would have thought of themselves as

:42:41.:42:47.

being reasonably well off. It is having a real impact on family life.

:42:47.:42:51.

So let's look at what can be done and how we can advocate for this

:42:51.:42:55.

financial transactions tax to insure it helps people not just at

:42:55.:43:01.

home but also in some of the world's poorest countries. So do

:43:01.:43:05.

you agree that David Cameron is a moral in not implementing this?

:43:05.:43:08.

would be good to see David Cameron looking and being a bit more in

:43:08.:43:11.

touch with the realities of life for ordinary families. I don't

:43:11.:43:15.

think there is anything he has said that has persuaded me that you

:43:15.:43:18.

really understand what it is like to be a low-paid, part-time worker

:43:18.:43:25.

who has just lost about �4,000 a year in their tax credits. So there

:43:26.:43:29.

we can really understand what you're saying here, we know that Ed

:43:29.:43:32.

Balls the shadow chancellor has said he would be economic suicide

:43:32.:43:36.

to introduce this tax, he said it should not be introduced unless it

:43:36.:43:40.

is global. Are you are doing that it could stand alone in the UK?

:43:40.:43:45.

would like to see done on a global basis. It is an opportunity to

:43:45.:43:50.

protect... But if it isn't? Well, I don't think we should give up on

:43:50.:43:53.

that argument. That is also what the Cardinal was saying. The UK

:43:53.:43:57.

Government should take a lead on this. When this was previously

:43:57.:44:04.

proposed across Europe, it would have been used to plug the eurozone

:44:04.:44:07.

crisis. That is not really what the fundamental principles of this tax

:44:07.:44:12.

are about. Let's push for this to be done on a global basis. But we

:44:12.:44:17.

know already the door is slightly open in Europe. Could it were just

:44:17.:44:21.

in Europe? I know everybody is saying it would be easiest and most

:44:21.:44:24.

effective with least prospect of damaged if it were global, but, as

:44:24.:44:28.

we say, many people have said that America is never going to sign up

:44:28.:44:38.
:44:38.:44:46.

to this. So, accepting that, could Are willing to cede more broadly

:44:46.:44:49.

than the UK and because many companies would it take their, --

:44:49.:44:54.

their actions out of the UK and avoid paying it. It is important

:44:54.:44:58.

that the UK Government takes the lead on this. There are things they

:44:58.:45:02.

could do now to help was families the Cardinal was talking about,

:45:02.:45:06.

restoring the cuts to the working tax credit and not giving

:45:06.:45:11.

millionaires the tax cuts they have given them in this budget. We have

:45:11.:45:16.

been saying it would be damaging and billions could be lost and go

:45:16.:45:20.

offshore to avoid paying this tax, but economists have signed a letter

:45:20.:45:25.

saying this would not necessarily be the outcome. To whom do you

:45:25.:45:29.

think we need to speak now and what evidence which you like to see

:45:29.:45:34.

coming forward? We need to speak to all of those bodies engaged in

:45:34.:45:40.

these precise financial transactions. Economists have said

:45:40.:45:44.

one thing, but the businesses who engage in buying and selling every

:45:44.:45:51.

day may say something different. One can easily see and envisage a

:45:51.:45:56.

situation where a certain section of Trade and trading is taken off

:45:56.:46:02.

shore. It is taken to a country which has not signed up. I agree

:46:02.:46:08.

with cafe, that could leave us with less revenue to fund core services

:46:08.:46:17.

which would be the worst of all solutions. Her f economists say

:46:17.:46:27.

that, for example, a researcher for JP Morgan said, I Robin Hood tax

:46:27.:46:36.

could be good for the economy but the net effect is likely to be plus

:46:36.:46:41.

a quarter of a percent. There is conflicting evidence out there.

:46:41.:46:46.

This is true. Therefore, we must not rule things out and continue

:46:46.:46:51.

the fight. The cardinal talked about the morality of this. It will

:46:51.:46:55.

cap the living conditions of some of the poorest people in the world,

:46:55.:46:59.

it is important we get the developing countries to sign up and

:46:59.:47:02.

take their share of the responsibility. That is why I

:47:02.:47:10.

support this as a global tax. you very much. We understand this

:47:10.:47:17.

morning, the former First Minister, Jack McConnell, has confirmed he is

:47:17.:47:19.

taking legal actions against allegations of his phone being

:47:19.:47:25.

hacked, what is the extent of this, do you think? I think it is

:47:25.:47:29.

shocking that the First Minister of Scotland had his phone hacked. I

:47:29.:47:35.

feel for Jack and his family having to go through this process. We have

:47:35.:47:44.

a revolution today in the lines of the Leveson Inquiry. Are you

:47:44.:47:49.

shocked by this revelation? And I am appalled. We had the original

:47:49.:47:53.

reports and there were thousands of deter breaches. The real tragedy

:47:53.:47:58.

for me is that this was not dealt with much sooner. We're now in a

:47:58.:48:02.

position where all this is unravelling. When the original

:48:03.:48:08.

report was published, that would have been a better place today if

:48:08.:48:16.

action had been taking. It is appalling. I hope the Prime

:48:16.:48:22.

Minister will make any representations he can. Hopefully,

:48:22.:48:29.

Mr Salmond will see he cannot defend any of this. I did suspect

:48:29.:48:34.

that she might say that. She won I want to apologise for the 18

:48:34.:48:38.

meetings Labour leaders had with Rupert Murdoch, after the original

:48:38.:48:44.

report was on Gordon Brown's desk. I would rather we got to the bottom

:48:44.:48:47.

of this and clean up the whole culture of the media. Thank you

:48:48.:48:55.

very much. Now while much attention has been on the local election race

:48:55.:48:58.

in Glasgow, another close contest is taking place in the Capital.

:48:58.:49:01.

Just remember the backdrop - a tram project years behind schedule and

:49:01.:49:04.

massively over budget - turning famous streets into virtual no-go

:49:04.:49:06.

areas and Edinburgh into a laughing stock. And then recurring

:49:06.:49:09.

allegations of fraud and corruption by city officials over housing

:49:09.:49:14.

repairs. So what will all this mean when the voters go to the polls? We

:49:15.:49:24.
:49:25.:49:31.

have the key players here but first here's Christine MacLeod. Young

:49:31.:49:35.

voters in Edinburgh, preparing to rank their candidates in order of

:49:35.:49:38.

preference. The City is one of the most politically divided in

:49:39.:49:44.

Scotland. Is killer cat that 2007 local elections in the city, each

:49:44.:49:50.

of the main parties got one fifth of the first vote. -- if you look

:49:50.:49:56.

at. The Greens do well in the city. Edinburgh is the one place in

:49:56.:50:01.

Scotland work all five of the largest parties do relatively well.

:50:01.:50:05.

These young apprentices are urging their Peers to vote to insure their

:50:05.:50:15.
:50:15.:50:16.

voices are heard. If I can manage to get across my Bewes... Came of

:50:16.:50:24.

it elderly. They get treated fairly badly. -- keel of the elderly.

:50:24.:50:30.

trams and the destruction they have caused. Anger over the trans has

:50:30.:50:33.

been a constant feature in the media, but this translates as a

:50:33.:50:39.

vote against the Liberal-Democrats? Trans is still one of the biggest

:50:39.:50:44.

talking points in Edinburgh, but the parties are not likely to say

:50:44.:50:47.

anything different about them, they all want to get the scheme

:50:47.:50:51.

completed as quickly as possible and for as little money. It is

:50:51.:50:56.

difficult to know what voters who are angry about the trans can do.

:50:56.:51:01.

It is almost neutralised. This election is taking place under the

:51:01.:51:09.

PR voting system. That means any bargaining which takes place

:51:09.:51:13.

between the parties after the election, could be as crucial as

:51:13.:51:18.

the campaigning beforehand. After the election, no one party will

:51:18.:51:23.

have a majority so there will have to seek partners for an

:51:23.:51:30.

administration. The Greens was -- will play an important role in that.

:51:30.:51:35.

So, it is the guess of anyone what will happen here. Whatever the

:51:35.:51:39.

outcome, the voters want to know whether their calls for change or

:51:39.:51:46.

will be heard. So with me now are the leaders of the four main

:51:46.:51:50.

parties at Edinburgh City Council. In the studio for the SNP is Steve

:51:50.:51:52.

Cardownie, for Labour - Andrew Burns. And in Edinburgh for the

:51:52.:51:55.

Liberal Democrats we have Jenny Dawe and for the Conservatives,

:51:55.:52:05.
:52:05.:52:09.

Jeremy Balfour. We are grateful for your time. You with a former

:52:09.:52:14.

council leader, when you look back at your tenure, are you proud of

:52:14.:52:19.

the way you serve the citizens of Edinburgh? Yes, I am. It has been a

:52:19.:52:23.

challenging five years but I can look back and show that I believed

:52:23.:52:28.

Edinburgh is a better place, thanks to the Liberal Democrat policies we

:52:28.:52:32.

put in place and thanks to the way that coalition administration has

:52:32.:52:39.

taken a tough decisions we had to take. Regrets, have you had a few?

:52:39.:52:45.

Obviously, things could have worked out better as regards the trams. We

:52:45.:52:50.

have now turned that around. We now have a project going to St Andrews

:52:50.:52:56.

Square. There are some issues which might have been better if they had

:52:56.:53:00.

worked out rather more quickly, however we took tough decisions

:53:00.:53:06.

which brought us to where we want to be now. Obviously, the SNP were

:53:06.:53:14.

in coalition in previous councils with the Lib Dems. D Rigby that

:53:14.:53:20.

work better than you expected? it worked better than we thought.

:53:21.:53:29.

It lasted five years. Our position on the trams were clear. The other

:53:29.:53:35.

parties were in favour of trams. There is probably two other major

:53:35.:53:40.

issues in the five years when we differ substantially from the

:53:40.:53:44.

Liberal-Democrats, but we have been through it. Lasting for five years

:53:44.:53:49.

is testimony to the way the leadership worked, but the way all

:53:49.:53:52.

the people within the Liberal- Democrats and the SNP work hard

:53:52.:53:57.

together to get policies through. So, you could do it all again with

:53:57.:54:03.

the Lib Dems if you needed to? could do. We hope we and in a

:54:03.:54:08.

position where we will be in the driving seat. We ought to be the

:54:08.:54:16.

senior partner in any coalition. Quite a lot of the chatter Today

:54:16.:54:20.

newspapers has been that an interesting coalition would be

:54:20.:54:26.

between Labour and SNP, could you work together? I would not have a

:54:26.:54:31.

problem with that, I used to be in the Labour Party -- Steve used to

:54:31.:54:35.

be in the Labour Party. He used to be a colleague and I would have no

:54:35.:54:38.

problem with working with any of the parties in Edinburgh. The

:54:39.:54:48.
:54:49.:54:49.

voters are in the driving seat. were at the transport convener in

:54:49.:54:55.

2007 when the trams project contract was signed. The condition

:54:55.:54:58.

subsequently unravelled spectacularly. Have you ever

:54:58.:55:02.

apologise for that? What you have said is not quite correct. The

:55:02.:55:08.

final contract was not signed until 2008. All five parties in Edinburgh

:55:08.:55:15.

signed up to that. It was a year after the elections and into

:55:15.:55:19.

Jenny's administration. We all have a degree of responsibility for this

:55:19.:55:24.

project which is why we have called for the last cheer for an

:55:24.:55:27.

independent public inquiry to happen as quickly as possible.

:55:27.:55:33.

you have apologised for your part in it? A absolutely, we all have a

:55:33.:55:42.

share in it. Jeremy Balfour, you have been emphasising the key role

:55:42.:55:46.

that Council plays in providing services. Do you think it

:55:46.:55:49.

inevitable that some services will have to go out to private

:55:49.:55:53.

contractors? I am not sure they have to go out to private

:55:53.:55:59.

contractors, we could work in partnership with business to make

:55:59.:56:03.

sure it the services are provided in the most efficient way. We have

:56:03.:56:09.

to look at an admixture of modules here in Edinburgh. Some can be done

:56:09.:56:17.

in-house, some in partnership with others. That is already happening

:56:17.:56:22.

in Edinburgh, for example under a former Labour administration. I

:56:22.:56:28.

think that has worked reasonably well. This could work well in the

:56:28.:56:32.

future. But you do envisage there will be more private sector

:56:32.:56:40.

involvement in providing frontline services for the council? I think,

:56:40.:56:44.

the voluntary organisations have a role to play and business

:56:44.:56:47.

organisations have a role to play. We need a working partnership to

:56:47.:56:52.

make sure that service is provided are provided efficiently and well.

:56:52.:56:57.

I do not think people in Edinburgh provide -- mind to provides the

:56:57.:57:03.

services as long as it is done well and efficiently. Is that true?

:57:03.:57:07.

think most people would prefer services to be provided by public

:57:07.:57:14.

sector employees. However, they want value for money. When we did

:57:14.:57:18.

not vote for the scheme to hive off some services to the private sector,

:57:18.:57:23.

it was not on the basis that the status quo would prevail. There had

:57:23.:57:31.

to be changes. That has happened so we it are more efficient now. I

:57:31.:57:36.

think people respect the fact that people joined the public sector to

:57:36.:57:42.

provide services for the citizens of the city. They would prefer to

:57:42.:57:45.

retain his services there but the public sector has to look at the

:57:46.:57:51.

private sector and take on lessons from them and bring them in into

:57:51.:57:55.

the private -- the public sector. This will make sure people get

:57:55.:58:01.

value for money. Do you agree? ideal. There are ways that the

:58:01.:58:05.

private sector can be involved, whether it is over and gas or

:58:05.:58:12.

electricity provision. What was proposed under Jenny's leadership

:58:12.:58:16.

was to put out to private sector over 3,000 of the council jobs

:58:16.:58:22.

minus 20 % of the council work force. A lot were Front Line

:58:22.:58:29.

service functions which we opposed right from the outset. We opposed

:58:29.:58:36.

it as well. The SNP said no, this is a step too far and we retain the

:58:36.:58:42.

jobs. For �4 million worth the money was spent. We do still back

:58:42.:58:47.

that volume of work going out to private contractors? People in the

:58:47.:58:52.

City want services provided in as efficient and effective a way as

:58:52.:58:57.

possible and get best value for money. It was not privatisation or

:58:57.:59:01.

putting services out to the private sector which is being described. It

:59:01.:59:06.

was much more of a partnership with the private sector. Particularly on

:59:07.:59:10.

the environmental services were extreme, there were good reasons to

:59:10.:59:16.

have gone with that model of working in the future. That is what

:59:16.:59:22.

my group wanted on the council. We started from the premise that

:59:22.:59:25.

public services are in general best provided by public servants.

:59:25.:59:33.

However, we had to look at quality of services and cost. After a long

:59:33.:59:38.

period of negotiation, we thought the environmental services in

:59:38.:59:40.

particular was where we could have worked in partnership with the

:59:40.:59:48.

private sector but we did not lose control of the strategy or policy.

:59:48.:59:53.

To be clear, were you to have any influence in the next Council, you

:59:53.:59:58.

would want to be introduced that model? I think that the moment has

:59:58.:00:04.

passed. Over two years were spent negotiating with different private

:00:04.:00:08.

sector organisations and works streams. I do not think we would be

:00:08.:00:12.

revisiting it in that form, but I think we have to look at the best

:00:12.:00:16.

way to provide services and that might be working in social

:00:16.:00:21.

enterprises, with the voluntary and private sector. We have to look at

:00:21.:00:25.

what gives us best value but what does not detract from the quality

:00:25.:00:34.

Jeremy, is it inevitable that people will have to pay more for

:00:34.:00:42.

their transport? I don't think that is necessarily true. We have in �1

:00:42.:00:44.

million budget in Edinburgh and we're looking to make sure that

:00:44.:00:50.

budget is done most efficiently. One of our key commitments is to go

:00:50.:00:55.

for budgeting in 2013. We believe offices can find back room savings

:00:56.:00:59.

which can then be put into front line services. That will release

:00:59.:01:03.

money which means that the services we provide at the moment can be

:01:03.:01:09.

done efficiently and also within that �1 billion budget. You must

:01:09.:01:15.

regret the level of debt with which you that she had told the council -

:01:15.:01:22.

- you have saddled the council? Well, the debt is �1.5 billion. It

:01:22.:01:27.

was only �900 million in 2007 when Labour left office. It has gone up

:01:27.:01:35.

by 66% since May 2007. It it has gone up under SNP leadership.

:01:35.:01:38.

we talk about the millions that are lost out there to people in

:01:38.:01:45.

Edinburgh who were listening to this, when you say it was bad

:01:45.:01:49.

underwriters but worse and others, many people find does -- find that

:01:49.:01:52.

a rather fatuous argument. They just want to make sure you don't

:01:53.:01:58.

make those mistakes in the future. It is important to stress the

:01:58.:02:02.

project has spiralled out of control under the current

:02:02.:02:09.

leadership. The level of debt has gone up by 66%. And that was not

:02:09.:02:13.

because of a large loopholes in the original agreement you signed?

:02:13.:02:20.

did not sign up. That was signed on 1st May, a year after this Lib Dem.

:02:20.:02:27.

Well, you negotiated it then. mean, Andrew is being a bit

:02:27.:02:31.

disingenuous about the tram project. Three times, the SNP called for it

:02:31.:02:36.

to be scrapped, and once for a referendum. We were outvoted by

:02:36.:02:40.

other parties. We did not oppose the signing of the contract because

:02:40.:02:43.

we were persuaded that the council should remain united when faced

:02:43.:02:48.

with signing a contract with a consortium. We lost argument over

:02:48.:02:53.

the business case. I don't really blame councillors for agreeing with

:02:53.:02:57.

the contract, I blame that advice that we got, because we had legal

:02:57.:03:02.

advice that these contracts were good. I remember somebody saying

:03:02.:03:08.

they were too many checks and balances in the contract for it to

:03:09.:03:14.

be dangerous. So I think councillors were badly misled.

:03:14.:03:18.

Ultimately, you have a duty to make sure you are satisfied, you satisfy

:03:18.:03:23.

yourselves. Indeed, I think the councillors from all parties asked

:03:23.:03:30.

relevant questions, week -- we had some very highly paid officials who

:03:30.:03:34.

were not at the top of their game. It is very bad form to blame your

:03:34.:03:40.

officials. Well, that is the case here. We were advised to sign the

:03:40.:03:44.

contracts by officials with legal expertise who told us they will

:03:44.:03:50.

watertight. That has turned out not to be the case. Jenny, can I ask

:03:50.:03:56.

you how much you regret the fact that Edinburgh council is now

:03:56.:03:59.

associated with allegations of corruption and fraud by council

:03:59.:04:03.

officials? I think every councillor must greatly regret that fact. What

:04:03.:04:08.

is important now is that this investigation which is under way

:04:08.:04:14.

continues, and that the internal investigation, which is also

:04:14.:04:19.

continuing, routes out all the problems that there have been. Of

:04:19.:04:24.

course, none of us wish to be in a situation where we found that

:04:24.:04:28.

officials of the council had not acted in as honest a way as they

:04:28.:04:33.

should have done. Jeremy, do you accept that in the public mind this

:04:33.:04:36.

may speak to incompetence by councillors who are supposed to be

:04:36.:04:40.

in charge of running the council? Yes, I recognise that perhaps most

:04:40.:04:44.

people in Edinburgh don't make the distinction between what

:04:44.:04:47.

councillors do and what are officers do. But I do agree, going

:04:47.:04:52.

back to Steve's comment - we were given what we thought was very good

:04:52.:04:56.

advice, good commercial advice, before we signed the contract. I

:04:56.:05:01.

think that advice was wrong and I do think that is why we should call

:05:01.:05:05.

for a public inquiry, so we can find out what went wrong, why the

:05:05.:05:12.

advice given to council was wrong. Clearly, hindsight is a great thing,

:05:12.:05:17.

but if I could go back, I would not sign the contract that was put in

:05:17.:05:22.

front of us on the information that I now know. But I did not know that

:05:22.:05:26.

at the time. These counsellors can any make decisions on the

:05:26.:05:31.

information that we have. I believe all councillors from every party

:05:31.:05:34.

did ask the right questions, and I think in regard to the property

:05:34.:05:38.

repair things, one problem which may have occurred is there was a

:05:38.:05:43.

lack of political involvement. Perhaps we need to make sure that

:05:43.:05:46.

politicians are involved in getting the right information and making

:05:46.:05:56.
:05:56.:05:58.

the decisions. Thank you very much, all of you. We'll leave it there.

:05:58.:06:01.

And if you'd like to read more about the local government

:06:01.:06:04.

elections, you can visit the BBC Scotland news website and click on

:06:04.:06:07.

the Vote 2012 link for more information.

:06:07.:06:10.

A UK charity which provides food to people in need said this week it's

:06:10.:06:13.

seen a massive rise in the numbers seeking help. The Trussell Trust

:06:13.:06:17.

fed more than 100,000 people last year - up more than 60% on the year

:06:17.:06:20.

before. The charity runs a network for food banks where people can get

:06:20.:06:26.

emergency food parcels. It intends to open up 40 more of these food

:06:26.:06:29.

banks in Scotland by 2015. But should people have to rely no the

:06:29.:06:37.

state for something as basis as food? Gilly Mathieson reports.

:06:37.:06:43.

Every can, carton and shopping bank here is for those who cannot afford

:06:43.:06:48.

to eat. Two food banks are opening every week in the UK because more

:06:48.:06:52.

and more families say they need them. It is a three-day supply of

:06:52.:06:56.

food, about 10 meals were. Steve and Barbara were living from

:06:56.:07:02.

Steve's salary as a security guard until he became sick in January.

:07:02.:07:09.

Before Christmas, new year, we were roughly anything from �1,000 to

:07:09.:07:19.
:07:19.:07:20.

�1,500 a month. By the end of February, we got �350. That was

:07:20.:07:25.

statutory sick pay. You have a full rent to pay, council tax to pay,

:07:25.:07:32.

gas and electric. You can't do that all of this amount of money. It was

:07:32.:07:39.

the situation. They are not alone. Last year, the number of people fed

:07:40.:07:43.

by the banks doubled. One charity, which is expanding its food banks

:07:43.:07:47.

across Scotland, says the rise is due to what is happening in the

:07:47.:07:51.

economy. We anticipate the situation is going to get worse. It

:07:51.:07:57.

is a very sad reality. People who are on low incomes, the food price

:07:57.:08:02.

inflation is making their ability to buy the necessary Kurds to keep

:08:02.:08:08.

the whole family -- the necessary goods to keep the whole family show

:08:08.:08:11.

on the road is higher than ever before. A benefit support is being

:08:11.:08:21.
:08:21.:08:21.

cut. Dave is a volunteer at the Dundee food bank. They are

:08:21.:08:24.

struggling until they get paid again on Tuesday. This is emergency

:08:24.:08:30.

food to keep them going. Food here is donated by individuals,

:08:30.:08:35.

supermarkets and local schools. Vouchers are given out by local

:08:35.:08:40.

organisations like the Citizens' Advice Bureau. Williams says he has

:08:40.:08:45.

not eaten for over a week. He is in debt, and for every �90 a week he

:08:45.:08:52.

gets and benefits, he uses �80 to pay off his debt. If it was not for

:08:52.:08:57.

this discovery, I would not be year. I would be in the hospital, I this

:08:57.:09:06.

daft or dead. The coalition government says help is there.

:09:06.:09:16.
:09:16.:09:16.

either starved or dead. The idea that we should have charity food

:09:16.:09:20.

banks as a replacement of the welfare system is a very worrying

:09:20.:09:23.

development. We are already concerned that we are seeing

:09:23.:09:30.

Jobcentres referring families. charity scene had they will have 40

:09:30.:09:36.

more the banks in Scotland by 2014. -- hopes. But, his charity the

:09:36.:09:40.

answer, or should the state be stepping in. Joining me now from

:09:40.:09:43.

our Dundee studio is Ewan Gurr - a regional organiser for the Trussell

:09:43.:09:46.

Trust and in Oxford we have Professor Liz Dowler, who works in

:09:46.:09:53.

food and social policy at the University of Warwick. Thank you

:09:53.:09:57.

for joining us. Firstly, who is coming to that the banks in

:09:57.:10:02.

Scotland? We are seeing a rise in the proportion of people who are in

:10:03.:10:07.

work or who have just been made redundant. Steve and Barbara are by

:10:07.:10:12.

no means an isolated case. We are seeing a lot of families who are

:10:12.:10:17.

hard-working, real grafters, who have just found themselves in a

:10:17.:10:23.

situation of absolute clap -- absolute crisis. And who is giving

:10:23.:10:31.

you the feud? It comes from a variety of sources. Church as Cesar

:10:31.:10:36.

-- churches give us a lot of food. One of the things we do well his

:10:36.:10:40.

work with supermarkets to do supermarket collections. So the

:10:40.:10:45.

community, essentially, is buying the foot for the project. We then

:10:45.:10:49.

provided to people in need. So it is the community supporting the

:10:49.:10:54.

community. And you see more and more people will be in need?

:10:54.:11:00.

will see an increase over the next the years and we have done already,

:11:00.:11:04.

particularly in Dundee. There's been an increase every year, and it

:11:04.:11:09.

doesn't seem to be declining, so, for that reason, I think there is

:11:09.:11:15.

going to be an increase in nationally. Liz, do you have

:11:15.:11:20.

reservations about this sort of intervention? Yes, I do. I am not

:11:20.:11:25.

remotely against compassion and generosity - how could I be? It is

:11:25.:11:30.

essential that people are enabled to help those in need. But I am

:11:30.:11:37.

extremely, not just worried, I am actually quite angry about the idea

:11:37.:11:41.

that expanding food banks is going to be the answer to this problem. I

:11:41.:11:44.

mean, there are nearly one million people in Scotland already living

:11:44.:11:50.

in poverty. There is no way that the banks can address their needs.

:11:50.:11:55.

And the more that food banks are talked of or there is an

:11:55.:11:58.

implication that they are run answer to the problem, the more

:11:58.:12:06.

they prevent the government and society in general from having

:12:06.:12:15.

serious conversations. So you think the state is let off the hook? What

:12:15.:12:19.

part of state support is failing? Is it the structure of benefits

:12:19.:12:24.

coming out of Westminster, is it wage levels? It is both those

:12:24.:12:34.
:12:34.:12:36.

things. There is very consistent work from social policy research

:12:36.:12:41.

bodies with good solid methods for looking at what a minimum income

:12:41.:12:44.

standard is. His work has been going on for many years, and for

:12:44.:12:50.

the past three years it has been very apparent how far short most

:12:50.:12:54.

benefits and the national minimum wage for all from what people

:12:54.:12:58.

actually need to be able to live. And certainly to be able to feed

:12:58.:13:04.

themselves. And it is worse than that, because benefits and the wage

:13:04.:13:09.

are up rated either by the Retail Price Index or the Consumer Price

:13:09.:13:12.

Index, both of which do not reflect the real increases in the price of

:13:12.:13:21.

foot, which play a much bigger part in the budget for people on low

:13:21.:13:25.

incomes. So in fact things are getting worse and worse and there

:13:25.:13:29.

is no way the government should not be aware of this. What do you make

:13:29.:13:33.

of that argument, that we have got to the stage now where some

:13:33.:13:38.

professionals are referring people to the food banks, in some ways

:13:38.:13:42.

they are becoming institutionalised, and that by enabling us, you allow

:13:42.:13:46.

the government off the hook? Caddie respond? I hear what you're saying

:13:46.:13:54.

and I here. -- how do you respond? I agree with a lot of what Liz said

:13:54.:13:59.

there. The two things we do not want to do is to create a

:13:59.:14:03.

dependency culture and to subsidise chaotic living. But unfortunately

:14:03.:14:07.

the way I see it is that I am not accountable for what the government

:14:07.:14:11.

isn't doing. I'm accountable for what I am doing. And I feel I have

:14:11.:14:17.

a responsibility to respond to need. And I don't see a great deal of

:14:17.:14:20.

provision for people who are in need at this moment. So I

:14:20.:14:24.

understand where Liz is coming from and I don't believe food banks can

:14:24.:14:28.

address the issues, but I do believe that we can do something to

:14:28.:14:33.

effect change in people's lives. Liz, today we interviewed Cardinal

:14:33.:14:38.

Keith O'Brien, and he has said he feels David Cameron is immoral in

:14:38.:14:43.

not imposing a Robin Hood tax. He feels he is out of touch with

:14:43.:14:46.

ordinary people while his wealthy friends are going on their own

:14:46.:14:52.

sweet way. Do you agree with that? I have a lot of sympathy with him,

:14:52.:14:59.

I must admit. I am not a politician, nor am I a campaigner. I am an

:14:59.:15:03.

academic. Nevertheless, I think it is hard to hold your head up and

:15:03.:15:11.

justified the way our economy is running at the moment. I work

:15:11.:15:13.

internationally and I can see examples in other countries where

:15:13.:15:20.

there is a commitment from the top to a much more just way of enabling

:15:20.:15:30.
:15:30.:15:34.

Thank you very much. If you would like to hear more on the subject of

:15:34.:15:42.

food banks, you can tune into BBC Scotland investigate this at 4:30pm.

:15:42.:15:49.

How are things which you? We really do care and that is what our size

:15:49.:15:55.

correspondent wants to know. hello, how were you feeling it? --

:15:55.:16:02.

Science Correspondent. Here where operating at Strathclyde University

:16:02.:16:10.

to test the mood of the nation. -- we are co-operating. Think of it as

:16:10.:16:15.

an on-line quiz. We wanted to do something different from a

:16:15.:16:19.

traditional survey on political attitudes. We wanted to find a way

:16:19.:16:29.

to engage people in the research process and get a sense of, how do

:16:29.:16:35.

you feel when you are asked some of these questions? What is your mood?

:16:35.:16:39.

How are the current situation splaying out in your world? We also

:16:39.:16:43.

wanted a sense of whether it is the same in all the different parts of

:16:43.:16:49.

the United Kingdom. We are living in challenging times, it is at the

:16:49.:16:53.

same in Scotland as it is in Northern Ireland? Do some things

:16:53.:16:56.

make people mad in England which they're quite happy about in

:16:56.:17:02.

Scotland or Wales? The everyone who takes the quiz will get an instant

:17:02.:17:06.

personalise result and we will bring you the national results once

:17:06.:17:15.

they had been calculated. Follow this link. That will take you

:17:15.:17:19.

straight to the quiz which should not take long to complete. You will

:17:19.:17:24.

arrive at a map, choose the place she left, follow the survey from

:17:24.:17:32.

there. -- you've left. It is a bit of fun and a way to show how we do

:17:32.:17:36.

academic research and get quick results. They would get a quick

:17:36.:17:40.

result when they finished the question here and it will tell them

:17:40.:17:46.

where they fit into the general picture. The researchers say all

:17:46.:17:52.

submissions are anonymous. No information will be stored. If you

:17:52.:18:01.

want to tell us how you feel, the link is... Now onto the lunchtime

:18:01.:18:05.

news. Good afternoon. Lord McConnell -

:18:05.:18:08.

the former First Minister - has said he's taking legal action over

:18:08.:18:11.

allegations of phone hacking by the News of the world. Lord McConnell

:18:11.:18:15.

said police had told him he was among the potential victims of the

:18:15.:18:22.

scandal. He has confirmed that he and his family are speaking to

:18:22.:18:25.

solicitors. Meanwhile, the Labour Party has called for a formal

:18:25.:18:27.

examination of the role of the Scottish government adviser and his

:18:27.:18:32.

dealings with News Corporation. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has said he

:18:32.:18:35.

believes the Prime Minister is behaving immorally by putting the

:18:35.:18:37.

needs of the rich ahead of those of the poor.

:18:37.:18:40.

But David Cameron says he understands how difficult times are

:18:40.:18:47.

for families. The Cardinal has long championed the very poorest in

:18:47.:18:51.

society. He says these are people lower once well-off - young

:18:51.:18:56.

families, workers and pensioners. Do not just protect all wage you

:18:56.:19:02.

very rich colleagues in the financial industry. Consider your

:19:02.:19:07.

moral obligation to help the poor in our country. The Prime Minister

:19:07.:19:10.

says he understands but tough decisions me to be taken.

:19:10.:19:15.

understand, that is what fires me up and gets near to bend to work

:19:15.:19:21.

hard and do the right thing for the country. The curdle says he backs

:19:21.:19:26.

the campaign for a card -- for a Robin Hood tax on the financial

:19:26.:19:30.

sector which will raise �20 billion every year. The head of the

:19:30.:19:32.

Highland Spring Water firm has once again been named as Scotland's

:19:32.:19:35.

richest man in the Sunday Times Rich List.

:19:35.:19:37.

Mahdi Al-Tajir's personal fortune stands at �1.6 billion. The total

:19:37.:19:40.

number of Scots achieving billionaire status has risen from

:19:40.:19:46.

two up to five. Sport now - and the last Old Firm

:19:46.:19:52.

game of the season started at about half a year ago. Rangers are

:19:52.:19:56.

playing Celtic at Celtic Park and the latest score there is Celtic 2-

:19:56.:19:59.

Rangers nil. We'll have more coverage of that in our next update

:19:59.:20:03.

at 6:15pm this evening. Tender the weather. Hello there, we're

:20:03.:20:08.

starting to see a downhill trend in the says. Cloud wind and rain

:20:09.:20:12.

the says. Cloud wind and rain across southern regions. The

:20:12.:20:17.

northern regions hold on to the sunshine for longest, clouding up

:20:17.:20:23.

in the south with a strong north- easterly breeze. Cooler with the

:20:23.:20:26.

cloud. The rain moves north overnight and fizzles out in the

:20:26.:20:29.

north and east, improving in the south with sunshine coming through

:20:29.:20:34.

and feeling warmer. That's it for and feeling warmer. That's it for

:20:34.:20:40.

and feeling warmer. That's it for now. Goodbye. First, let us take a

:20:40.:20:50.

look back at the week in 60 seconds. The SFA fined and imposed a

:20:50.:20:53.

transfer ban on Rangers for rule- breaking link to the club's

:20:53.:20:59.

financial meltdown. An international election experts

:20:59.:21:05.

reviewed the Holyrood election in 2007 and recommended the

:21:05.:21:08.

independence referendum dump contained only one question. Donald

:21:08.:21:13.

Trump went before a Scottish committee. He was assured an

:21:13.:21:18.

offshore wind firm would not be built near his golf report, he said.

:21:18.:21:23.

A I invested my money based on statements which were made to me,

:21:23.:21:27.

so what they did was lower in the end, I spent his money and now I

:21:27.:21:32.

might regret it. Alex Salmond and Jack McConnell said they did not

:21:33.:21:37.

give assurances. The First Minister and denied any impropriety in his

:21:37.:21:43.

relationship with Rupert Murdoch. James Murdoch told the inquiry Alex

:21:43.:21:48.

Salmond had offered to lobby the UK Government on their behalf

:21:48.:21:55.

supporting a bid to takeover BSkyB. Much to discuss today and we have

:21:55.:22:01.

secured the services of the men in the know so stick with us.

:22:02.:22:05.

Here in the studio we had journalist and lecturer Ewan

:22:05.:22:09.

Crawford and in Edinburgh at the Scottish political editor of the

:22:09.:22:14.

Daily Telegraph, Alan Cochrane. A pleasure to see both. Let us start

:22:14.:22:19.

with their comments of the cardinal. I do not think it will be the

:22:19.:22:23.

highest on David Cameron's list of priorities. He will pay attention

:22:23.:22:30.

to what he said, but his main priority is to save his Culture

:22:30.:22:35.

Secretary. I think he should have sacked 10 days ago. The other thing

:22:35.:22:40.

about the Kano, he devalues it by the language he uses. He said David

:22:40.:22:48.

Cameron is immoral. He has missed the bus on his project because, as

:22:48.:22:53.

both Labour and SNP spokesman said earlier, attacks on financial

:22:53.:22:58.

transactions would have to be global. If Britain did alone,

:22:58.:23:05.

Edinburgh and London would lose hand over fist. To clarify, he said

:23:05.:23:09.

David Cameron and his ministers in their approach in opposing this

:23:09.:23:13.

were immoral. Will people say it is appropriate for someone in the

:23:13.:23:18.

position of the cardinal to make these comments? I am not sure what

:23:18.:23:24.

people will say about the cardinal. I think his over-the-top remarks

:23:24.:23:29.

had devalued everything he has said in recent years. I understand what

:23:29.:23:34.

he is saying about Colin individuals immoral. If he had made

:23:35.:23:42.

-- used different language, forensic she were talking about

:23:42.:23:45.

food banks earlier and the Sunday Times Rich List where the rich are

:23:45.:23:49.

getting even richer, so there is clearly an issue with inequality,

:23:50.:23:54.

so if he is raising those issues that is a good thing but sometimes

:23:54.:23:58.

language and politics in this country can obscure things. Do you

:23:58.:24:04.

not think that the clamour is so loud that unless you say something

:24:04.:24:08.

very striking, unless you make comments which get headlines, you

:24:08.:24:13.

will not get the coverage you actually feel is required? I think

:24:13.:24:20.

that is reasonable. Had been a journalist and also try to get

:24:20.:24:26.

publicity. -- I have been. If he is raising the issue of inequality,

:24:26.:24:30.

that is a massive and growing issue and he should be congratulated on

:24:30.:24:35.

it. Whether we should call individuals immoral, I am not sure.

:24:35.:24:40.

Do you think Jeremy Hunt will survive? I am not sure. He should

:24:40.:24:46.

not. He is responsible for the actions of his special adviser at

:24:46.:24:50.

the same way Alex Salmond is responsible for his special adviser,

:24:50.:25:00.
:25:00.:25:02.

Geoff Aberdein. Kowtowing with a slick man. Geoff is a good guy, I

:25:02.:25:05.

talk to him about it all but he should not be talking to Robert

:25:05.:25:14.

Mark duck. Adams neck resigned. -- Adams Smith resigned. And he should

:25:14.:25:22.

be out as well. As a former adviser, it seems extraordinary that the

:25:22.:25:27.

this individual off his own bat without any knowledge of his boss,

:25:27.:25:32.

was engaged in these long conversations with their Murdoch

:25:32.:25:38.

organisation. As seems a bit hard to believe. There is no suggestion,

:25:38.:25:42.

with SNP, and that they were doing anything other than they said they

:25:42.:25:47.

were doing. This has caused this to huge a row this week that they

:25:47.:25:51.

genuinely thought this would be a good deal for Scotland. There is no

:25:51.:25:58.

sense that the adviser went rogue. Come on, you would be telling you

:25:58.:26:03.

students to get towed into this story about Geoff Aberdein telling

:26:03.:26:08.

the man from then use of the world, that he would do anything and say

:26:08.:26:17.

anything to help the BSkyB bid. What is Alex Salmond say now about

:26:17.:26:22.

his pal Robert Murdoch, the First Minister of Scotland being hacked?

:26:22.:26:26.

Why has it taken nine years for this to emerge from Strathclyde

:26:26.:26:32.

Police? Dead a know about it? are allegations at this stage. --

:26:32.:26:40.

did they know about it? In terms of Scotland, are you surprised it

:26:40.:26:44.

seems like every investigation into this suggests him problems stop at

:26:44.:26:50.

the border? Is that credible? do not think the problem did stop

:26:50.:26:57.

at the border. I think he was a lot more prevalent a, the phone hacking,

:26:57.:27:04.

than elsewhere. I think it is more than an allegation, if I make so

:27:04.:27:11.

bold, there story of Jack we can all. This endemic problem of the

:27:11.:27:15.

Murdoch empire is one that the first men -- the First Minister is

:27:15.:27:20.

glibly brushing aside, he says everyone was doing it. Everyone was

:27:20.:27:25.

not doing it but the main culprits were his friends, Rupert Murdoch

:27:25.:27:30.

employees. House in the Hindi using this is, the jack McConnell

:27:30.:27:40.

development today? -- how significant easing the says. I do

:27:40.:27:43.

not think anyone in their right mind would defend the First

:27:43.:27:48.

Minister having his phone hacked. In terms of politics, I am not sure

:27:48.:27:53.

what the implications are. This happened in the past and is

:27:53.:27:56.

completely wrong. We have the Leveson Inquiry at the moment and

:27:56.:28:01.

will see the Press Complaints Commission abolished and we are

:28:01.:28:05.

seeing a criminal inquiry, so there are wider implications than in

:28:05.:28:10.

terms of just specifically Scotland. Other than to say, it is a total

:28:10.:28:16.

disgrace. A important news - Ross County has been -- have been

:28:16.:28:20.

promoted, I expect you are thrilled? I was an Inverness

:28:20.:28:30.

Thistle fan. You can come back then. I am a Hearts supporter, so I am

:28:30.:28:35.

looking forward to the next couple of weeks. But you are thrilled

:28:35.:28:41.

about Ross County? I had been celebrating four days. You have

:28:41.:28:43.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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