13/05/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by the communities secretary Eric Pickles to discuss growth and regulation.

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Fake Good morning. From the rose garden to a tractor factory. The


Prime Minister promises a new focus on the economy but will the


relaunch of the Queen's Speech make a difference? Eric Pickles joins us


for the Sunday interview. Is there an alternative blueprint


that would get the economy moving again? The two big economic ideas


of the age or head-to-head. The pressure is on Jeremy Hunt and


the Tory party after Rebekah Brooks appeared at the Leveson Inquiry.


She revealed a cosy relationship between new Labour and News


International. If we bring you the latest on the


deal by a Rangers football club. Air accident publish their findings


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 65 seconds


want helicopters stitching. The body of another child was found


The body of another child was found at a late on Saturday night.


Workers have been bent over in tears. You do not see that very


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 65 seconds


often. We are feeling for the We have a crater in the economy.


There is a great big hole as a result of the a financial crisis.


It is nothing to do with government. Deprive right -- the private


finance sector crashed and the government had to take on the


liabilities. The government is saying it is nothing to do with


them. It is the equivalent of appeasement. They are sitting there,


leaving this great creator of unemployment, inactivity. How would


you fill that hole? The fact is that the business sector does not


have confidence. They are afraid, they can see the economy


contracting. Public investment. big programme of public investment.


In housing and also in... What is wrong with that? It goes to what


Liam Fox said in the package. Did the Labour government not spend


enough? We have tested this policy to destruction. Austerity, really


means living within your means, balancing the books. Having a


stable environment helps you to make reforms are to help the


business economy. I think that Eric Pickles was rather feeble in what


the coalition has damn to help this does. -- has done. The reason the


collision cannot do anything is because it is paralysed by ideology.


And you are repeating that. Seeing we have to balance the books.


not know about years, but the government has already borrowed a


trillion pounds. Under current spending plans, that will rise to


1.5 trillion bike 2016. And you want to borrow even more? Yes. The


government is not like you. You cannot go to the Bank of England,


but the government can. And when the government... When you spend,


you do not get money back again. When the government spends, it get


tax revenues. This is fantasy. we do? -- what would you do? I what


the Government to do much more on red tape. Irrelevant. It is not


irrelevant. The costs faced by the start-up of a new accompany are


extremely high. Should it be easier to fire people? Yes. That is


austerity. You would have more people working. We have the lowest


taxes across the whole of OECD. We pay much lower unemployment benefit.


We have much less protection for our workers. If you look at what


Germany has done over the last 10 years, it has liberalised its


employment laws enormously. It allows companies to take on people


as consultants for four years, no questions asked, no legal


requirements. Germany went down a road of liberalisation.


deregulated the labour market. as much as we have done. It is much


more expensive to hire a German worker, the taxes that they pay and


are paid on them, than a British worker. I do not think you are


offering much more than blood, sweat and tears. My we would get


colossal numbers of unemployed young people into work. -- a my


method. You want to act on the demand side, increased demand. You


are acting on the supply side to try to make the supply side more


efficient. Why don't you get together and do both? We do not


need to do the supply side. We could improve our productivity in


Wareham best -- if we invested more in our businesses. There is already


a fiscal stimulus. We will add another �500 billion to the


national debt. Why do we not try to solve the problem from the other


Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the


programme. At last, it is done. Rangers have


agreed a deal with the former Sheffield United Chief Executive


Charles Green. We will be live in Aberdeen as the


AAIB initial investigation into Thursday's helicopter ditching


finds a failure occurred in the main gear box.


And as coalition deals are struck across local councils, we ask, can


you shake hands and hold your nose at the same time?


A trip to Quebec, a Canadian province that has played the


referendum game before. And finally, a plea to recognise


the Scottish veterans who braved On the day of the final Rangers


match of the season, the former Sheffield United chief-executive


Charles Green has come to an arrangement with which he hopes to


buy the team. There has been a press conference this morning. What


do we know this morning? Charles Green is fronting the


consortium that has made a bed that has been accepted to purchase


Rangers. The administrators are saying that this is a vocal ball


agreement to buy the club. He will try it a CVA initially to try to


bring the club out of administration. They will try to


appease their debts owed to HMRC and Ticketus. If that does not


succeed, a newco company will be set up, owned by Charles Green.


That will kick them if a CVA is not accepted by creditors. But that CVA


is their preferred option. If this goes ahead, what does it


mean in terms of the sort of team at Rangers will be able to put up?


It is very difficult to predict that until we see the full details


of what Charles Green is proposing. He did say that not every decision


that will be taken will be a comfortable one, or an easy one.


That suggests there will be decisions taken under his ownership,


under the consortium. It is difficult to predict what it means


in terms of the team that they might be able to put on the park


next season. It is a reasonable to assume that it will be a


streamlined squad that will not be able to pay the sort of wages and


type of players that have been brought it to Ibrox in the past.


But a lot remains to be decided. Here is our economic commentator.


Do you think it is a done deal? Yesterday, Charles Green was


talking about himself as the new preferred bidder for the club. From


what I have heard so far, there are 20 different strands of money going


into the pot from different families and groups. Whether that


is a done deal or not, and will be delivered to the administrators,


remains to be seen. This CVA, whether or not it goes


ahead, how will it work in practice?


There are two choices. The company a voluntary arrangement. That is an


arrangement an insolvent company has with his creditors. It has to


get their agreement. That is the arrangement that will come together.


To put some kind of figure on how much they will get out of the pot


of money. We do not know what the liabilities are yet because we have


not had the result of the big tax cases that are still outstanding.


We do not actually know what the extent of the debt is and what this


asset that is being created to pay it off, how big it will be. If HMRC


does not say yes to as the -- does not say yes to this CVA, Rangers


will have to be liquidated and a new Company will be created. The


club will come ten-year, but the decks and will be left behind in


the old company. -- debts. We do not know the full extent of


the debt. What would happen to them under the new company arrangement?


The creditors would get what ever they could out of the liquidated


old company. That would depend what assets were left in the liquidated


old company. HMRC have not been comfortable


about that in the past. The track record of HMRC in dealing


with the sort of CVAs, they have tended lot to be players in that


CVAs. ---10 did not have to be. -- tended not to be. I know a lot of


lawyers and accountants who have a lot of expertise in this area, and


all of them have said to me that it will never go to CVA, it will end


up in liquidation. Whether that is the case or not, it is not nice for


the Rangers supporter, the like to have the heritage and the history,


but in terms of where we are this morning, we are just at the


beginning of another part of the journey. We still have to find the


outcome of it. Thank you very much indeed.


An initial investigation into Thursday's helicopter are ditching


in the North Sea has found that a failure occurred in the function of


the main gearbox. The 14 people on board escaped after the pilot


carried out a textbook controlled landing. There have been


developments at this morning. Yes, a lot of development at this


morning. The air accident investigation branch had issued a


special bulletin this morning. This often takes in weeks or months, but


they have done that within a few days. It follows the ditching last


week of this helicopter about 30 miles off the coast of Aberdeen.


What they have found is a 360 degree crack around the vertical


shaft of the media box. That was near a previous Weld, a


manufacturing world. That caused interference to the oil supply to


the gearbox. A morning alight went on and the crew immediately took


action and ditched the helicopter. This is a serious finding for the


entire flight. They honours have announced that other helicopters


have been grounded. They have also a grounded -- are grounded another


360 what happens from now on to establish what the problem was and


when the fleet may be flying again? We were expecting to be attending a


press conference this morning. That was called off. The report was


expected last night but we heard there were technical difficulties.


Bond will be at -- outlining what they will do in detail. I suspect


they will go round the entire fleet. Deraa two other helicopter


companies operating out of Aberdeen. They have not taking any action yet.


They have found no problems so far. There could be a safety directive


given at some point which may result in that. We're not expecting


that at the moment. We will hear later on this afternoon. There are


big implications here from the thousands of workers.


A week on and wheeler-dealing in council chambers across the country


is still going on. We have seen unexpected alliances but what is


behind the collisions? -- collisions.


Labour won overall control in Glasgow and three other areas. The


same is true for the SNP in Dundee and Angus where it has formed a


majority administrations. In a hung councils, there are all sorts of


wonderful alliances. Take a look at Aberdeenshire. It has all types of


different councillors in charge. In the Highlands, it is similar. In


eastern Martin Show, there is a Labour, Lib Dem, Tory deal. While


an egg and borough, Labour-run BSN p have joined forces, in some


places, it looks like both parties have gone out of their way to


freeze the other lot out of power - - Edinburgh Mac. In Stirling,


Labour-run the Conservatives have a power-sharing pact in what had been


an SNP run council. There is a tendency of the Labour Party to


going to coalition with the Tories. I am not sure how you Scotland will


see a repeat of collisions. I think that is white people vote Labour.


Labour says it is working with friends and four was across the


political spectrum. A There is an issue of how they have overstated


how well they're doing. You can put a big question mark over the


momentum. We have made steady progress, we have reconnected with


the electorate. Boss Labour-run BSN peak made election gains. In terms


of the larger number of councillors which the SNP achieved, the large


number again that we achieved. We have a councillor in virtually


every ward across this country. If you want to keep celebrating


Stallingborough party defeats, that is fine by the SNP. Her BSN p now


has a national army of counsellors likely to be tasked with winning


the independence referendum and the ward they represent. By definition,


pro-union parties of councillors in all parts of Scotland 2. They could


deploy them as local leaders in their campaign to keep Scotland as


part of the UK. With me, Anas Sarwar and for the


SNP, Kenneth Gibson. The alliance in Edinburgh, a good idea? I don't


see why not. It seems sensible for both of them to work together for


the good of the city. We would like to have seen more such alliances.


If you look at what has happened, where the run all Labour or


Conservative councillors, Labour have a coalition in the eight of


those areas. Labour seem to prefer to work with conservative. I think


he is rattled because the SNP are beatable and Alex Salmond is not


invincible. You have seen across the country, the Labour Party


working constructively with parties of all political lines. To that is


why use all Labour, SNP packed. You have seen other administrations. We


are not focusing around what positions people are in, but where


we can deliver Labour Party values. At the moment, we have 13 Labour-


led councils compared to eight SNP councils. He were not simply having


Unionist alliances to block out the SNP? If you take the example of


Edinburgh, we have constructively worked with the SNP to form an


administration. We work with whatever party we need to work


within the best interests of that city. Some council leaders were


saying, SNP leaders, there is little in terms of social policy


between Labour and get the SNP. It made sense to work together. Why do


you think it has not happened? think it is the issue of Unionism.


Him the election literature, it was about stopping Tory cuts but they


have dealt with the Tories. I must take issue with what he has said


about the election result. We made two gains -- 62 games which


extended the Leeds -- lead across the country. If that is Labour


stalling her momentum, we could do with more days like that. With all


the massive cuts coming down the line, you do not want to be the one


in control of the council -- councils? The reason the Labour --


labour wants to have councillors in charge for... Who you are in


coalition with the representatives... The reality of


the electoral system is that you must work with political parties to


form administrations. He gives the example of Stirling. It is part of


that deal we are delivering the range for workers in Stirling.


we cut through the layers, the pragmatic thing is that you're


going to have to deliver deals with people, you were blaming the Tories


for cuts, but these will be your partners in Council. Take the


example of the last Scottish Parliament. The SNP were seeing


Wright late that we're there -- that we were getting cuts. Through


that parliamentary term, they are playing double games here. This is


not a conspiracy. We fought for local communities up and down the


country. The reason the SNP is negative is that they realise the


momentum has stalled. The realised the Labour Party is taking a


positive step. It is a matter of fact that when it went through in


Holyrood, you relied on the Tories to get that through. Everyone does


those deals. That is not true. The still voted against it. But reverse


a lot of the policies, council tax freeze, small business baldness.


They have down -- now done a second U-turn. We have not had any


agreements with the Conservatives. Sometimes, it seems poisonous. That


filters down to the detriment of local democracy. Both it is the


fact that Labour feel they have used up their birthright. If we do


not feel as bad about them as they seem to feel about us. I have been


in the SNP 33 years. It is not personal. Thank you.


Colebeck the province of Canada which held at second referendum in


1995. They had a federal government. The Quebec nationalists came close


A night in Canada, the most popular show in Candida. We have a diverse


country. The game brings us together. I grew up, Irish Catholic,


he is Jewish. We have these other walks of life. When you get too


cocky, it is all forgotten. Ottawa, the heart of federal politics. He


and the most recent elections, the Tories won a large majority. In


Quebec, the supported the centre- left. But won the majority in the


province. It is a partnership. It is the case between what a wire and


all the provinces. We have our debates and agreements. Politics


and can a Dutch is still dominated by public spending cuts. Quebec


separatist Slav state in the federal elections last year. In the


1990s, they held power in Quebec. For the nearly one their referendum


on sovereignty. If the TV screen had red and blue on the bottom and


it was wavering all night. In 1995, we had a federal government very


like the British government now. It was concerned with cuts, changing


the symbols of Canada. Quebec nationalists when arguing they were


the ones who were standing up for the collectivist, more left-wing


view of the company -- country. home rule with independence beat


Tory rule from Westminster any time and any day.


Canadian federal politicians warned it does not make sense to vote.


you bought for your government, and to elect a government, with a close


margin, it is not the end of the world because four years later, you


will water again. If you destroy the country, it is for yourself and


the next generation. Does my Quebec experience give us a taste of what


is to come and lessons for nationalists and Unionists parties?


When the welfare state is reduced, when social programmes are under


threat, as we saw in Canada, that can offer opportunities for those


campaigning for constitutional change to make the independence


project seem attractive. Potentially, the most difficult


After the referendum, the federal government adopted a lot


recognising Quebec as a distinct society. -- a law. A new generation


of Quebecois have a strong sense of identity. I feel more Quebecois


than comedian. -- Canadian. But I am still from Canada. My country


for me is not cannot up but Quebec. -- not Canada. A do-nothing


independence will change anything. But for Canadians, the referendum


had a lasting impact. No one wants it to lose the third referendum ll.


I think we will win the third one. Politics it may still divide them,


We are now joined live from Ottawa by the political correspondent for


the Vancouver Sun, Peter O'Neil. What in Canada did you find was the


impact of what was perceived to be an imposed austerity programme on


the independence debate? It was interesting. My first day in Quebec


when I was covering the referendum, I arrived at their Quebecois bus.


There was austerity, but not exactly a feast. -- exactly Greece.


The bus was covered in multi- coloured signs. There was a huge


contrast to the rest of the debate. They were saying we can escape this


austerity, which was not exactly honest but effective. He is the


lesson that the campaign, its tone and message, is critically


important? It is critically important if you are unprepared and


underestimate your opposition. That is what the federalist forces were


guilty of. They were not united and assumed they would lose. They made


some huge mistakes in terms of exaggerating the dangers. The went


too far with that. Campaigns matter. But I have to say that I cannot


imagine Alex Salmond could replicate the leadership of their


Quebecois. It was a Christ-like resurrection that galvanised of the


population. What are the key messages if you look at the


Canadian experience for both sides embers? The key message for the


unionists would be clarity. They have to spell out exactly what this


means, especially the negatives of it. But it would be dangerous to


frighten people. It went on in Canada. In Quebec, are a very


respected finance minister gave a speech and said that one-third of


people in Quebec would lose their jobs. People assumed he was


exaggerating and everything he said then was have ridiculed. They have


to be a sober and United. On the SNP side, you are dealing with a


sensible people, it is not as emotional as in Quebec. They have


to be statesmanlike, project an idea of strong administration.


Scotland tomorrow, we are expecting it and an announcement -- expecting


an announcement on minimum pricing for alcohol. In Canada, you have


had this for years, does it work? For the last four years, I have


just come back from Paris, I used to come over to the United Kingdom


and I have to say that you really do have a problem in the United


Kingdom in terms of social drinking and binge drinking. This is one


component of it. We saw with smoking, when the government raised


the taxes on smoking, people stopped. We are used to this in


Canada. If you have a social drinking problem, and you can go to


the liquor store and get cheap wine, that will get it worse. Thank you


for joining us this morning. And now here's the lunchtime news with


Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. The former Sheffield United chief


executive Charles Green has agreed a deal to buy Rangers. It was


announced at the club's training base at Murray Park. Mr Green wants


to form a Company Voluntary Arrangement and he's backed with


finance from Singapore businessmen. More helicopter flights have been


grounded after a helicopter ditched in the North Sea. The Super Puma


came down last Thursday. An interim report discovered a crack in the


main gearbox was to blame. The operators had already suspended


flights of the same type of aircraft.


Two men have died after an incident involving a microlight plane on a


mountain range in Crianlarich. It is understood the plane went down


near the summit of Ben More in Good afternoon. Some very wet and


windy weather coming our way. Difficult driving conditions as


well. That rain is already affecting much of western Scotland.


Heavy in the north-west, Argyll, extending eastwards. Temperatures


up to 12 or 13 Celsius at best. But feeling colder him that wind. Our


Winston Churchill called it the worst journey in the world, the


North Atlantic convoys would to a vital supplies to Soviet allies in


the Second World War. The men is shared out of Scottish Power was to


face you bought and air attacks on freezing says. More than 3000 men


were killed. The survivors have been denied the official mark of


recognition and respect, and dedicated campaign medal. The


Scottish government is among those who feel this is unacceptable. In


the studio with me is Keith Brown MSP, the Veterans Minister.


What are you saying to the government about this? The summer


months ago, I wrote to the Government asking them to proceed


as quickly as possible with this. These young men had a very


dangerous mission. By and large, they were not trained in military


warfare. The under to go the most dangerous of missions. Had they not


done so, it could have changed the whole outcome of the war. For


Winston Churchill to recognise their value, rethink that the


current Tory government should be recognising them as well.


offence of it was the comment from one of the defence ministers that


they could have the Atlantic Star? That was offensive to the veterans.


You cannot compare these extremely brave... He subsequently apologised.


They are extremely a brave people and there are very few of them left.


Sometime a goal in Edinburgh, there was a medals ceremony by the


Russian government for these men. A lot of them were very young men at


the time, even ones at the boats were going out, they still kept


going. They knew what they were sailing into. The Germans very


quickly twigged to what was going on. They made it a very hazardous


trip. These men were essentially civilians, not trained to do this.


But be made sure that supplies got through to Murmansk and Archangel,


it was extremely important. We will give you more news on that campaign.


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by the communities secretary Eric Pickles to discuss growth and regulation, plus he speaks to the Labour MP, Chris Bryant about the latest from the Leveson Inquiry and hears how two leading economists would get Britain's economy growing.

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