27/05/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.

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She the shadow business Secretary joins us for the Sunday interview.


Last night, Britain's cast their vote and had their say on Europe.


Could be soon be voting on a more profound issue one who should be


winning the Eurovision Song Contest? Namely, whether Britain


should leave the European Union altogether. They form at the Europe


Minister and the UK leader go head to head. Whether it is time to stay


in the Eurovision or walk away from And on Sunday Politics Scotland,


the Yes campaign is up and running as Alex Salmond seeks to sign up


one million Scots to take part in his independence crusade. Will it


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1514 seconds


chime with the public, or strike a You cannot be so unpleasant about


foreigners in Britain and immigrants in Britain and then say,


off we would like to increase trade with these other countries. You


cannot be open for business and closed to foreigners. That is UK


policy. The UK policy is that we cannot have open-door immigration,


and at a time of recession, which we have now... Speaking of the UK


referendum, isn't it the fact or that he might get his way? De


Eurozone may become more tightly integrated, and we will not become


part of that. We will be on the outside. We will be more martial is,


except that. You can have an end or out referendum, we can these these


you'd hands what would change? what would we lose? We would lose


the position that we have gained over a could choose years of being


in there fighting as hard as we can to maintain open and liberal


policies. For example, when mad-cow disease struck and our beef was


absolutely safe, the European Union where one of the only places that


would accept it, Hong Kong, or colony, said, British beef, you


must be joking. We can be flippant about our agricultural industry, it


is important for her farmers that they can export. If we are outside


the European Union, then exports would come to a juddering halt.


Shouldn't we renegotiate and put that to the people, rather than in


or out? People would like to know the Thames. There could be


different terms under which we could stay in. We have tried to


renegotiate for many years now. I have come to the conclusion that


this is on the form a ball. If we go back to a referendum, the last


time we had a referendum on this many people voted, but the likes of


me, I was not even a twinkle in my mother's eye. Yes or no, who would


win? I think if face with isolating ourselves completely from the


business community, even some of the offshore owned press, would say


that this is insanity. For a referendum, will be would stay.


think we would come out. I think the British people are of that


belief at the moment. To Gentleman, Good morning and welcome to Sunday


Politics Scotland. Coming up: they're off! Only another 2.5 years


to go. As the Yes campaign watches, we ask what are the details that


will help you make up your mind? The Scottish Secretary Michael


Moore will give you his take on events, and the SNP's Stewart Hosie


will encourage you to sign the declaration.


And hopelessly devoted to you, get it? Sorry. You will hear other


options for greater powers. And I am going to Dublin to find out the


impact that the economic downturn is having on Scotland's councils


stop what have you seen at the movies this week?


Here at the Sunday Politics be taking the latest instalment in a


long-running drama. Critics have had mixed reactions, but fans


believe it is the start of something special. Producers are do


not expect an Oscar. We gave our correspondent a few quid and told


It is a rather surreal Friday morning at the movies. The cinema


here at Fenton breeches pretty packed, there are around 20 minutes


to go until the big launch and anticipation is growing. The hosts,


Marton Compston, said that the main man at Sean Connery was not there.


He read out a statement that left the audience a little deflated.


Then the other main man appeared with this. When we entered the


referendum campaign in autumn 2014, our intention is to have one


million Scots having signed the independence for Scotland


declaration. Quite what you are signing up for in an independent


Scotland is unclear. What followed has been called a bizarre mixture


The cast of characters are anchored in Scottish culture and politics


gave what they hoped were convincing performances. Echoing


the main theme of essentially, let Scots decide their own future as


Westminster does not have the foggiest.


One SNP strategist says he wanted the ones to take place in a cinema


because it is where real people go, and it is a that people and not


politicians. The audience in the auditorium were very enthusiastic,


but they now have a task in hand, an almost evangelical one, to


convince the unconvinced. So the heat is on, but some


surprise at what has been called a watch to the left. Those enjoying


the sun in Glasgow give their reaction. Would you vote yes to an


independent Scotland? I think I would. Definitely. In the pen and


Scotland. I would need to read up on it more. I am not sure. Know. I


just do not think it would be a good thing. Mixed reviews in the


newspapers, the lack of detail and early lot coming in for criticism.


The rush matters, but it is more about content, substance and


strategy, or rather the lack of strategy. It has emerged that all


political parties kind of arrogant, they believe their own propaganda.


They believe their own hype and believe they are bright and


brilliant. It is a naive and enlightened arrogance.


surprisingly, the Unionists did not give this feature many stars either.


Scotland England's Ireland and Wales, will be all stand tall as it


individual nations but there is a thread that binds us together. I


believe in the United Kingdom, I believe Scotland is a great country


but is better in the United Kingdom. Another argument is that there


simply is not the support for independence according to polling


evidence. The response? Lazy thinking. I except that we have


ground to make up, and that is exactly why we are having this


campaign over the next few years. It will be interesting to see what


the talking heads in Westminster took it the next Paul shows


independence support shifting upwards. They are so complacent.


that is the main feature over. Brace yourself for a sequel and


stand by for the new release. The pro-union campaign. Probably not


appearing in a cinema near you. Joining me now in her Edinburgh


studio is Michael Moore, good morning Mr Moore. Good morning.


central message from the Capital Bond was that the people best


placed to make decisions for Scotland are the people who


actually live here. You cannot disagree with that, can you? I am


delighted that we have the campaign underway, be have the biggest


decision in 300 years facing all of us who live here in Scotland. I


think this will come down to a simple proposition, that we are


stronger as part of the United Kingdom and weaker apart. Came just


the vox pops that featured in to report, he saw the range of views


and doubts that people have. I think that comes from thinking


through what is best for us in Scotland at what will go was the


strongest economy and make us more secure in the world. I think what


matters is that we have the modern Scotland within the United Kingdom


and that we do take the key decisions here at home in Scotland,


but are part of the United Kingdom taking bigger decisions together.


Don't those key decisions feature, what our taxes should be, what a


welfare should be and what kind of society we should have? Shouldn't


they be in the hands of people living in Scotland? That is the


choice that people will have to take. When I talk to people around


the country, and the like the fact that their pensions are secured


with and the strength of the United Kingdom as a whole. There is a


furnace across the United Kingdom to which they can attach themselves.


They like the fact that Scottish businesses do not have to worry


about differences in how we do things in Scotland at the best of


the United Kingdom, her biggest market for goods and services.


Their jobs are more secure, the Investment more likely. When it


comes to keep things like International Development and what


we do to help the poorest in the world, what we do to help Scottish


fishermen and farmers have cloud in Europe, being part of the United


Kingdom is good for Scotland. The positive reasons for being in the


United Kingdom will secure the right outcome for the referendum.


When will the no campaign launch? We are already engaged in debate


and are delighted that we already have opinions from those who all


ready of want Scotland to be independent. We will see the cross-


party group watched before too long. Already, significant voices like


that of former Chancellor Alastair Darling are part of that campaign.


We have a while to go and there will be plenty of time for all the


details and dates to a reworks the. You see the formal campaign will


begin soon, but when will it begin? That is not a matter for me as a


Government minister dot back but you will be part of that? I have a


diary, I will fill it in! cross-party group will make that


plain a very soon. We will go across the parties and we will have


people across Scotland, from all walks of life. I thought it was


significant this week that we saw precious little from the business


community supporting the Independent's campaign. It is


people the length and breadth of the country that will determine


this, whatever their walk of life. You talk about a positive campaign


for the union, and you talk about being cross-party with people like


Alastair Darling been involved, but he was speaking on Friday not a


pretty positive message but actually warning of the dangers of


independence in his view for the Scottish economy. How frustrating


is that Ford you that there are lots of scare stories going around


about Scotland? The important point here is that we ask all the great


questions. Every business person I speak to add that everyone I speak


to in factories the length and breadth of the country asks


questions about what will happen to a currency, what will happen to her


interest rates? Wendy Shea suggested that we will still be


part of the sterling and still be linked to the back of England and


that nothing much will change, they are very doubtful about that. They


ask, what kind of independence is this? Can be be way be influential


when we are outside of the parliament were all the key


decisions are taken? It is important that we focus on these


questions as well as reminding people of the great strengths we


have as part of the United Kingdom. Can we be certain that the United


Kingdom Government did not object to the timetable of 2014 gym --?


have said before that we do not see the timing as a barrier to the


referendum. So we can all settle down to a referendum in the autumn


of 2014? It is important that people are examining issues that


affect us as Scots in our daily lives. We want clarity and a fair,


legal and decisive referendum. That is why I want to meet with the


First Minister and have a proper, full-blooded debate about the


future of our country. Will we have you in the studio, I believe the


Ministry of Defence are announcing today the sale of the former RAF


base at Machrihanish, what are you doing there and what impact will it


have in the local community? I met with the local community groups


just over a year ago and they are working -- they have been working


very hard for a long time to get poorer shape of Machrihanish, and I


am delighted that they are using a right to ownership. -- to get


proper ownership. They will take over a huge asset and make sure it


works for the local community and help to rebuild the local economy.


Scottish Secretary Michael Moore, thank you for joining us.


And in her other studio is the SNP's treasury spokesperson Stewart


Hosie. Are you impressed with the positive campaign from your


opponents? I thought that Michael was funny at the end there, he now


wants to discuss the detail and not the nitty gritty of the no campaign.


All they have done before he has his pick fights over the referendum


process, I am pleased that we now have a agreement on the date and


other mechanics. In terms of the detail, that was a criticism of the


lodge on Friday, Jihad music and song and poetry and auditoria, but


there was no great detail about what would happen if Scotland voted


for independence. -- you had music and song. It will be in 2014, as it


-- and this is important because it gives people the best part probably


easier to realise the importance of what they are voting on. Issues


like the Queen as head of state, being in the European Union and the


sterling as the currency. Then there is the policy standpoint, the


decisions that the Parliament takes. They are a matter for 2016 and then


after. If we win the referendum, there will be elections to the


Scottish Parliament in 2016 had people can then choose if they want


the social democratic model of the SNP, a green model, a socialist


model or a combination of models. That is what happens in elections


in every other country and it will happen in Scotland as well.


mentioned a few other policy areas, some debate in recent days about


your policy on a NATO. Can you confirm that if there is an


independent Scotland in the May election, will be SNP's policy


going to that election be that you will not become a member of NATO?


The party policy breaks now is that the Brits eat to leave NATO. I have


not seen anything that would imply that we would seek to change that.


In terms of other details, there will be a gap in the lot of the Yes


campaign this month and the White Paper, how much of a danger is


there as an SNP member that you now have these other voices? We heard


Patrick Hardy for instance giving a different vision of an independent


Scotland, than that of Alex Salmond. Using oil and gas much less, is


Not in the slightest. Government has to publish the white


paper, but in terms of a different vision after independence, that is


healthy. Her in the UK, there are all these political parties arguing


for their own positions. It is quite right and proper but we have


different voices say no We would like our independent Scotland to


have this vision in the future. Let's ensues as many people from


across the spectrum as we can to deliver independence. In the 2016


election, let's put these different visions to the Test and come up


with a PR Parliament that actually reflects the views of the people of


Scotland. BS can peel and will be largely dominated by the SNP, even


though you have these other voices. In terms of resources and help,


what difference will have in the Scottish socialists and Scottish


Greens on board make? The year scam pain and the launch was incredibly


exciting on Friday. -- yes campaign. There are at least


three on board and that is good. There hour people from the artistic


community and the business community and all walks of life.


That will be a strength in what will be the biggest-ever community


campaign in Scotland as we move forward to the referendum. You're


up opponents say they now have them momentum.


-- you're opponents. That the SNP won the Le local-government


elections but that was not a referendum on independence.


As the First Minister said under earlier package, we now have a job


to do to convince those people. There are open and less thing and


they want to hear a case. We want to deliver a majority in 2014.


Now, there are others who think there is a better middle way in


Scotland's constitutional debate. Hayley Jarvis takes a look at the


alternatives. Independent. Are you for it or


against it? Or maybe you would prefer something in between the two.


Would that be Devo Plus? Pro union supporters which come from across


the er the political spectrum are expected to unfurled their flight


within the coming months, with a message that Scotland is stronger


within the United Kingdom than a loan, especially when it comes to


the economy and defence. They will promote the benefits of the


Scotland Act, which gives Holyrood or parser the spending and


borrowing. Devo Plus is also attracting cross-party support.


Reform Scotland is calling for greater powers for a Holyrood


within the Union. This would put Scotland in charge of raising 100%


of the cash its dens. There will be some key taxes, such as VAT and


National Insurance, left out. Some would go even further when it comes


to unpicking the current political make-up of the UK. Those in favour


of devilish and Max want Holyrood to have sold tax bars. This would


have all all powers to Holyrood, leaving Westminster in charge of


foreign affairs and defence, to which Scotland would pay its own it


contribution. More ideas on the constitutional future could emerge,


but will these options be on the ballot paper?


In the studio is the trade unionist, Dave Moxham. He's part of the


Future For Scotland campaign. And in our Selkirk studio, the former


liberal democrat MSP Jeremy Purvis. He's heading up the Devo Plus group.


Do we have, your organisation has called for a debate. We have one


now, don't we? Our organisation is pleased to engage in debate, but


there is a danger that we are moving too quickly into campaign


mode and away from listening mode. Who should you be listening to?


For our own members and a member has of a other organisations.


We should be organising a debate in which people feel able to ask the


questions they want to ask without the fear that we are automatically


signing up for yes or no. Do you agree become has been fire to


quickly? He raised as to good.


. What we have seen it in the last two days is more about tactics and


campaigning rather than substance. Wednesday you think we should start


a substantial have to be it? -- when it do you think. The longer


people have to think about it and to debate the issues, the better,


surely? The Devo Plus Group has published a its proposed laws and


you can read them on the website. It is a real step forward, giving


the Scottish Parliament greater powers and more accountability to


the Scottish people. We have to do us all out there now and I think


that for the official yes and no campaign, issues of substance have


to be given. There is any opportunity for them to be giving


that. But we're hoping to persuade parties and people out with their


party political process that there is a real alternative to


independents and that is the way forward through Devo Plus. I am


hoping that the Unionist parties will accept the case. They have


given mandate indication that they are interested. When a formal


campaign is launched, there is a clear choice between separation,


independence, and Devo Plus. Isn't the danger that if you can rayon


listening for month after month, you'll just get ignored?


That would be a case at the way the King at a referendum next year.


Give us an idea of what you guys are thinking a bout for Stott it is


OK to say you're in listening mode, but what are your parameters?


It is an untested stated squad because of and boss changes that


have yet be tested. We have been listening to deuce on


independence. Are we are of the view that clear elements have been


identified whereby enhanced by evolution could be put forward.


Some of those have been identified by the Devo Plus campaign. They


raised important issues, but not all the issues. Our personal


current criticism of that is that they have looked at the nuts and


bolts of tax, but there are other wider questions. If you're going to


look at tax and welfare, you need to look at regulation powers, the


employment market clock powers which occurred be held at


Westminster. I think Devo Plus have made a significant start. You were


not ambitious enough. Our focus initially her as a benign


the AA credibility of build a in my. Laugh cough I next piece of work is


going to be put for words about better social justice. There is not


only the flexibility, but the UK structure that reflects and is


accountable to Holyrood and the people of Scotland better. We are


in that process of work already. And that is why it is really


important that we have honesty with people that there are consequences


to both yes and no back position in the referendum. We're hoping that


their No. Side argues for enhanced bars across the her socialite comes


across the UK. There should be a long-term sustainable relationship


between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It will be a long debate.


Thank you. And now here's the lunchtime news,


with Andrew Kerr. Good morning. The former airbase at


Machrihanish on the Kintyre peninsula has been sold by the


Ministry of Defence for �1. The buyer is a company owned and


controlled by local people, who hope the site can help reinvigorate


the local economy near Campbeltown. The former RAF station was


strategically important during the Cold War. And delighted that using


the right-to-buy legislation that we have ourselves in a position


where the local community body will take over that you just sit and


make sure it works for the local community and helps them to rebuild


the local economy. Hundreds of households in the north


are being advised to take action after high levels of radon gas were


discovered in some areas. Concentrated pockets were found in


the Highlands and Deeside. It's a naturally occurring radioactive gas,


but it's been linked to cancer. Testing kits were sent to some


people last year. People who discover high results are being


urged to contact the authorities. The Edinburgh Marathon got underway


this morning. Hundreds of runners set off in the sun. It's the tenth


time it's been run and it's helped raise more than �30 million for


raise more than �30 million for hundreds of charities.


That's the news, now a look at the weather. Here's Judith.


We are still in the middle of this heatwave.


There has been cloud in the coastal areas, but that has cleared away


nicely. Everywhere is dry with lots of sunshine. Into the low twenties


already. That's it for the moment. Our next


bulletin is at 6.05pm this evening. I'll hand now hand you back to


Some of Scotland's rural towns could no longer be sustainable in


the future. That is the conclusion of a new report into the rural


economy in a time of recession. Researchers from the Scottish


Agricultural College have drawn up a vulnerability index to calculate


how current economic and social changes are affecting these rural


communities. Our reporter Gilly Mathieson has been to Dunoon, one


of the places identified as at most risk. Dunoon is one of a cluster of


row will towns which new research from the Scottish Agricultural


Centre says our most honourable to the economic downturn.


Here in Dunoon, 60% of the population are of working age and


of those who do work, 56% are employed by the public sector. That


is a lot higher than towns have a similar size across the country.


The local economy relies on the spending power of those who work


for the public sector. Although the council have promised that there


will be no compulsory redundancies, there are concerns that jobs could


be lost as the council continues to make its cuts. There is still worry


and uncertainty as we progressed. That it is like Lee to be a big


case over the next three years. This is a local charity which


offers free therapy and self help to are will swear mental health


issue. The charity says many of those that helps are under


increasing financial pressure. Until April 2011, Mehdi adults with


mental health problems who required additional help were able to access


support workers has no cost to them through the local authority. That


policy has now changed. Lots of people chose not to pay for their


support their pre- the EC has for an of in a.


As a result, as a service, we became much busier. This bakery was


founded Heron 1920s to and employs 37 for full-time staff. Business


has never been so tough. We have to distribute to Campbell's-hell and


the brown mould Nila, all these places. It is have a problem. This


is the local bookshop. She was hoping to manage the business from


home by of the bra Bank X is so poor that she is unable to handle


basic paper work. Publishers will have their


catalogues online. They send those to me and back cannot download and.


It's cannot actually you get through to the computer and blocks


it up. All the males suffer following it kept locked up. With


the public and private sector under pressure, young people here have


fewer options. Unless it is for somebody he has


got experience and his older, a fury of an purse and in this town,


you do not have the chance. Companies have just gone bust and


there is nothing for young people. The council is now led by an SNP


administration who say they were will be lots being the Scot has


Government for help to improve its infrastructure.


We must be better at connected to the rest of Scotland. Particularly


in communities like the us. If we get that our collection then


their ability for us to attract inward investment is significant.


With so many of Orrell town suffering under the economic


downturn, or what can and should be doing it to ensure their future


survival. Joining me now in the studio is one


of the authors of the SAC report Dr Sarah Skerrat and from our Bristol


studio we're joined by Robin Chater from the think-tank, The Federation


of European Employers. Is essentially what you're doing in


the report say it is special case needs to be made for rural


communities and Scotland. We're saying rural Scotland is


different to her and Scotland. Were not saying it should be privileged


or so separate. We're simply saying it is different.


Policies need to be tailored for those differences. This is


particularly crucial and times of economic downturn and scarcer


resources. Those resources need to be spent well and targeted well.


One example is concerning the ability of young people to find


jobs are much sought peace. There are initiatives another person


Scotland were scooters were provided for young people in order


for them to go to job interviews because the public transport


infrastructure simply doesn't allow that. That is where local


initiatives have stepped in because national policy frameworks are not


sufficiently targeted to those Days you agree that there is a


particular problem with rural communities gym yes, there is.


have special problems, everyone needs a car, obviously. I think


that most rural areas have a problem with employment, many


people must go off to cities and so on. You can see that in Scotland


but the 16-24-year-old seemed to go off to cities and made a comeback


in their middle years to live in rural areas, but it certainly is a


problem, particularly keeping young people. How do you fix it? You must


learn from the experience of other people. In Belgium there is a


scheme to encourage young people to set up businesses of their own.


Wanly 4% of people under the age of 25 are self employed in Europe. It


is slightly higher in Scotland, but very little is done for them. If


you are in Spain you will get a lump sum from your unemployment


benefit if you are not employed, in advance. In Italy, with the highest


level of self-employment amongst young people, half of the


population go on a special course to train you in entrepreneurship.


Do you agree with that analysis, which is that what you want to do


with youth unemployment is give young people the tools to set out


on their own rather than depending on state spending in former public


sector jobs? That is an important option, what is also important


alongside that it, equally important, is the place based


approach. Not only looking at it, but opportunities, but looking at


affordable housing. We are seeing a growth in some rural areas. A


growth in the need for housing and particularly for single occupancy


household. That is not a typical housing provision in rural areas,


housing for single people. Q also point out the number of second


homes, holiday homes. What should be done about that? I believe there


are debate in Government about council tax flexibility to allow


for different charges for how long a property is vacant, whether it is


furnished or unfurnished. I believe these discussions are ongoing.


the Scottish Government should pro actively try and reduce that


proportion of houses that are holiday homes? Which are unoccupied


for large portions of the Keir, be they holiday homes or vacant homes


that are simply unused. We need more housing, but we need the


houses to have the infrastructure. So when you houses are built, the


infrastructure must be built as well. There are vacant properties


that already have that infrastructure, and they must be


police so that young people can be housed. Businesses are tried to


grow in the rural areas and cannot house the work force because there


is no affordable housing. People might say that if community there


unsustainable then they are unsustainable, people should move


on and find jobs at light elsewhere for. They do. Only two-thirds of


the population who get degrees in Scotland actually can find a job


straight away. Many of them must move away. If Scotland has a very


good educational system compared with much of Europe and the number


of people in employment is higher in the north end of Scotland than


anywhere else in Europe. Much of that is dependent on the oil and


gas industry. In terms of local communities, how do they diversify


so they are not dependent on the public sector or on the Private


sector? 37% of people who live in rural areas are in small businesses.


Small businesses they set up. There in the Private sector and have


taken the initiative. The work in small companies. They are not


entirely dependent. If you take Scotland as a whole, all in round


23% of people in the public sector, people who have left their jobs


tend to be in local Government. People who are getting through the


educational system... Thank you very much. Sorry to Russia, we are


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.

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