27/05/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

She the shadow business Secretary joins us for the Sunday interview.

Last night, Britain's cast their vote and had their say on Europe.

Could be soon be voting on a more profound issue one who should be

winning the Eurovision Song Contest? Namely, whether Britain

should leave the European Union altogether. They form at the Europe

Minister and the UK leader go head to head. Whether it is time to stay

in the Eurovision or walk away from And on Sunday Politics Scotland,

the Yes campaign is up and running as Alex Salmond seeks to sign up

one million Scots to take part in his independence crusade. Will it

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1514 seconds

chime with the public, or strike a You cannot be so unpleasant about

foreigners in Britain and immigrants in Britain and then say,

off we would like to increase trade with these other countries. You

cannot be open for business and closed to foreigners. That is UK

policy. The UK policy is that we cannot have open-door immigration,

and at a time of recession, which we have now... Speaking of the UK

referendum, isn't it the fact or that he might get his way? De

Eurozone may become more tightly integrated, and we will not become

part of that. We will be on the outside. We will be more martial is,

except that. You can have an end or out referendum, we can these these

you'd hands what would change? what would we lose? We would lose

the position that we have gained over a could choose years of being

in there fighting as hard as we can to maintain open and liberal

policies. For example, when mad-cow disease struck and our beef was

absolutely safe, the European Union where one of the only places that

would accept it, Hong Kong, or colony, said, British beef, you

must be joking. We can be flippant about our agricultural industry, it

is important for her farmers that they can export. If we are outside

the European Union, then exports would come to a juddering halt.

Shouldn't we renegotiate and put that to the people, rather than in

or out? People would like to know the Thames. There could be

different terms under which we could stay in. We have tried to

renegotiate for many years now. I have come to the conclusion that

this is on the form a ball. If we go back to a referendum, the last

time we had a referendum on this many people voted, but the likes of

me, I was not even a twinkle in my mother's eye. Yes or no, who would

win? I think if face with isolating ourselves completely from the

business community, even some of the offshore owned press, would say

that this is insanity. For a referendum, will be would stay.

think we would come out. I think the British people are of that

belief at the moment. To Gentleman, Good morning and welcome to Sunday

Politics Scotland. Coming up: they're off! Only another 2.5 years

to go. As the Yes campaign watches, we ask what are the details that

will help you make up your mind? The Scottish Secretary Michael

Moore will give you his take on events, and the SNP's Stewart Hosie

will encourage you to sign the declaration.

And hopelessly devoted to you, get it? Sorry. You will hear other

options for greater powers. And I am going to Dublin to find out the

impact that the economic downturn is having on Scotland's councils

stop what have you seen at the movies this week?

Here at the Sunday Politics be taking the latest instalment in a

long-running drama. Critics have had mixed reactions, but fans

believe it is the start of something special. Producers are do

not expect an Oscar. We gave our correspondent a few quid and told

It is a rather surreal Friday morning at the movies. The cinema

here at Fenton breeches pretty packed, there are around 20 minutes

to go until the big launch and anticipation is growing. The hosts,

Marton Compston, said that the main man at Sean Connery was not there.

He read out a statement that left the audience a little deflated.

Then the other main man appeared with this. When we entered the

referendum campaign in autumn 2014, our intention is to have one

million Scots having signed the independence for Scotland

declaration. Quite what you are signing up for in an independent

Scotland is unclear. What followed has been called a bizarre mixture

The cast of characters are anchored in Scottish culture and politics

gave what they hoped were convincing performances. Echoing

the main theme of essentially, let Scots decide their own future as

Westminster does not have the foggiest.

One SNP strategist says he wanted the ones to take place in a cinema

because it is where real people go, and it is a that people and not

politicians. The audience in the auditorium were very enthusiastic,

but they now have a task in hand, an almost evangelical one, to

convince the unconvinced. So the heat is on, but some

surprise at what has been called a watch to the left. Those enjoying

the sun in Glasgow give their reaction. Would you vote yes to an

independent Scotland? I think I would. Definitely. In the pen and

Scotland. I would need to read up on it more. I am not sure. Know. I

just do not think it would be a good thing. Mixed reviews in the

newspapers, the lack of detail and early lot coming in for criticism.

The rush matters, but it is more about content, substance and

strategy, or rather the lack of strategy. It has emerged that all

political parties kind of arrogant, they believe their own propaganda.

They believe their own hype and believe they are bright and

brilliant. It is a naive and enlightened arrogance.

surprisingly, the Unionists did not give this feature many stars either.

Scotland England's Ireland and Wales, will be all stand tall as it

individual nations but there is a thread that binds us together. I

believe in the United Kingdom, I believe Scotland is a great country

but is better in the United Kingdom. Another argument is that there

simply is not the support for independence according to polling

evidence. The response? Lazy thinking. I except that we have

ground to make up, and that is exactly why we are having this

campaign over the next few years. It will be interesting to see what

the talking heads in Westminster took it the next Paul shows

independence support shifting upwards. They are so complacent.

that is the main feature over. Brace yourself for a sequel and

stand by for the new release. The pro-union campaign. Probably not

appearing in a cinema near you. Joining me now in her Edinburgh

studio is Michael Moore, good morning Mr Moore. Good morning.

central message from the Capital Bond was that the people best

placed to make decisions for Scotland are the people who

actually live here. You cannot disagree with that, can you? I am

delighted that we have the campaign underway, be have the biggest

decision in 300 years facing all of us who live here in Scotland. I

think this will come down to a simple proposition, that we are

stronger as part of the United Kingdom and weaker apart. Came just

the vox pops that featured in to report, he saw the range of views

and doubts that people have. I think that comes from thinking

through what is best for us in Scotland at what will go was the

strongest economy and make us more secure in the world. I think what

matters is that we have the modern Scotland within the United Kingdom

and that we do take the key decisions here at home in Scotland,

but are part of the United Kingdom taking bigger decisions together.

Don't those key decisions feature, what our taxes should be, what a

welfare should be and what kind of society we should have? Shouldn't

they be in the hands of people living in Scotland? That is the

choice that people will have to take. When I talk to people around

the country, and the like the fact that their pensions are secured

with and the strength of the United Kingdom as a whole. There is a

furnace across the United Kingdom to which they can attach themselves.

They like the fact that Scottish businesses do not have to worry

about differences in how we do things in Scotland at the best of

the United Kingdom, her biggest market for goods and services.

Their jobs are more secure, the Investment more likely. When it

comes to keep things like International Development and what

we do to help the poorest in the world, what we do to help Scottish

fishermen and farmers have cloud in Europe, being part of the United

Kingdom is good for Scotland. The positive reasons for being in the

United Kingdom will secure the right outcome for the referendum.

When will the no campaign launch? We are already engaged in debate

and are delighted that we already have opinions from those who all

ready of want Scotland to be independent. We will see the cross-

party group watched before too long. Already, significant voices like

that of former Chancellor Alastair Darling are part of that campaign.

We have a while to go and there will be plenty of time for all the

details and dates to a reworks the. You see the formal campaign will

begin soon, but when will it begin? That is not a matter for me as a

Government minister dot back but you will be part of that? I have a

diary, I will fill it in! cross-party group will make that

plain a very soon. We will go across the parties and we will have

people across Scotland, from all walks of life. I thought it was

significant this week that we saw precious little from the business

community supporting the Independent's campaign. It is

people the length and breadth of the country that will determine

this, whatever their walk of life. You talk about a positive campaign

for the union, and you talk about being cross-party with people like

Alastair Darling been involved, but he was speaking on Friday not a

pretty positive message but actually warning of the dangers of

independence in his view for the Scottish economy. How frustrating

is that Ford you that there are lots of scare stories going around

about Scotland? The important point here is that we ask all the great

questions. Every business person I speak to add that everyone I speak

to in factories the length and breadth of the country asks

questions about what will happen to a currency, what will happen to her

interest rates? Wendy Shea suggested that we will still be

part of the sterling and still be linked to the back of England and

that nothing much will change, they are very doubtful about that. They

ask, what kind of independence is this? Can be be way be influential

when we are outside of the parliament were all the key

decisions are taken? It is important that we focus on these

questions as well as reminding people of the great strengths we

have as part of the United Kingdom. Can we be certain that the United

Kingdom Government did not object to the timetable of 2014 gym --?

have said before that we do not see the timing as a barrier to the

referendum. So we can all settle down to a referendum in the autumn

of 2014? It is important that people are examining issues that

affect us as Scots in our daily lives. We want clarity and a fair,

legal and decisive referendum. That is why I want to meet with the

First Minister and have a proper, full-blooded debate about the

future of our country. Will we have you in the studio, I believe the

Ministry of Defence are announcing today the sale of the former RAF

base at Machrihanish, what are you doing there and what impact will it

have in the local community? I met with the local community groups

just over a year ago and they are working -- they have been working

very hard for a long time to get poorer shape of Machrihanish, and I

am delighted that they are using a right to ownership. -- to get

proper ownership. They will take over a huge asset and make sure it

works for the local community and help to rebuild the local economy.

Scottish Secretary Michael Moore, thank you for joining us.

And in her other studio is the SNP's treasury spokesperson Stewart

Hosie. Are you impressed with the positive campaign from your

opponents? I thought that Michael was funny at the end there, he now

wants to discuss the detail and not the nitty gritty of the no campaign.

All they have done before he has his pick fights over the referendum

process, I am pleased that we now have a agreement on the date and

other mechanics. In terms of the detail, that was a criticism of the

lodge on Friday, Jihad music and song and poetry and auditoria, but

there was no great detail about what would happen if Scotland voted

for independence. -- you had music and song. It will be in 2014, as it

-- and this is important because it gives people the best part probably

easier to realise the importance of what they are voting on. Issues

like the Queen as head of state, being in the European Union and the

sterling as the currency. Then there is the policy standpoint, the

decisions that the Parliament takes. They are a matter for 2016 and then

after. If we win the referendum, there will be elections to the

Scottish Parliament in 2016 had people can then choose if they want

the social democratic model of the SNP, a green model, a socialist

model or a combination of models. That is what happens in elections

in every other country and it will happen in Scotland as well.

mentioned a few other policy areas, some debate in recent days about

your policy on a NATO. Can you confirm that if there is an

independent Scotland in the May election, will be SNP's policy

going to that election be that you will not become a member of NATO?

The party policy breaks now is that the Brits eat to leave NATO. I have

not seen anything that would imply that we would seek to change that.

In terms of other details, there will be a gap in the lot of the Yes

campaign this month and the White Paper, how much of a danger is

there as an SNP member that you now have these other voices? We heard

Patrick Hardy for instance giving a different vision of an independent

Scotland, than that of Alex Salmond. Using oil and gas much less, is

Not in the slightest. Government has to publish the white

paper, but in terms of a different vision after independence, that is

healthy. Her in the UK, there are all these political parties arguing

for their own positions. It is quite right and proper but we have

different voices say no We would like our independent Scotland to

have this vision in the future. Let's ensues as many people from

across the spectrum as we can to deliver independence. In the 2016

election, let's put these different visions to the Test and come up

with a PR Parliament that actually reflects the views of the people of

Scotland. BS can peel and will be largely dominated by the SNP, even

though you have these other voices. In terms of resources and help,

what difference will have in the Scottish socialists and Scottish

Greens on board make? The year scam pain and the launch was incredibly

exciting on Friday. -- yes campaign. There are at least

three on board and that is good. There hour people from the artistic

community and the business community and all walks of life.

That will be a strength in what will be the biggest-ever community

campaign in Scotland as we move forward to the referendum. You're

up opponents say they now have them momentum.

-- you're opponents. That the SNP won the Le local-government

elections but that was not a referendum on independence.

As the First Minister said under earlier package, we now have a job

to do to convince those people. There are open and less thing and

they want to hear a case. We want to deliver a majority in 2014.

Now, there are others who think there is a better middle way in

Scotland's constitutional debate. Hayley Jarvis takes a look at the

alternatives. Independent. Are you for it or

against it? Or maybe you would prefer something in between the two.

Would that be Devo Plus? Pro union supporters which come from across

the er the political spectrum are expected to unfurled their flight

within the coming months, with a message that Scotland is stronger

within the United Kingdom than a loan, especially when it comes to

the economy and defence. They will promote the benefits of the

Scotland Act, which gives Holyrood or parser the spending and

borrowing. Devo Plus is also attracting cross-party support.

Reform Scotland is calling for greater powers for a Holyrood

within the Union. This would put Scotland in charge of raising 100%

of the cash its dens. There will be some key taxes, such as VAT and

National Insurance, left out. Some would go even further when it comes

to unpicking the current political make-up of the UK. Those in favour

of devilish and Max want Holyrood to have sold tax bars. This would

have all all powers to Holyrood, leaving Westminster in charge of

foreign affairs and defence, to which Scotland would pay its own it

contribution. More ideas on the constitutional future could emerge,

but will these options be on the ballot paper?

In the studio is the trade unionist, Dave Moxham. He's part of the

Future For Scotland campaign. And in our Selkirk studio, the former

liberal democrat MSP Jeremy Purvis. He's heading up the Devo Plus group.

Do we have, your organisation has called for a debate. We have one

now, don't we? Our organisation is pleased to engage in debate, but

there is a danger that we are moving too quickly into campaign

mode and away from listening mode. Who should you be listening to?

For our own members and a member has of a other organisations.

We should be organising a debate in which people feel able to ask the

questions they want to ask without the fear that we are automatically

signing up for yes or no. Do you agree become has been fire to

quickly? He raised as to good.

. What we have seen it in the last two days is more about tactics and

campaigning rather than substance. Wednesday you think we should start

a substantial have to be it? -- when it do you think. The longer

people have to think about it and to debate the issues, the better,

surely? The Devo Plus Group has published a its proposed laws and

you can read them on the website. It is a real step forward, giving

the Scottish Parliament greater powers and more accountability to

the Scottish people. We have to do us all out there now and I think

that for the official yes and no campaign, issues of substance have

to be given. There is any opportunity for them to be giving

that. But we're hoping to persuade parties and people out with their

party political process that there is a real alternative to

independents and that is the way forward through Devo Plus. I am

hoping that the Unionist parties will accept the case. They have

given mandate indication that they are interested. When a formal

campaign is launched, there is a clear choice between separation,

independence, and Devo Plus. Isn't the danger that if you can rayon

listening for month after month, you'll just get ignored?

That would be a case at the way the King at a referendum next year.

Give us an idea of what you guys are thinking a bout for Stott it is

OK to say you're in listening mode, but what are your parameters?

It is an untested stated squad because of and boss changes that

have yet be tested. We have been listening to deuce on

independence. Are we are of the view that clear elements have been

identified whereby enhanced by evolution could be put forward.

Some of those have been identified by the Devo Plus campaign. They

raised important issues, but not all the issues. Our personal

current criticism of that is that they have looked at the nuts and

bolts of tax, but there are other wider questions. If you're going to

look at tax and welfare, you need to look at regulation powers, the

employment market clock powers which occurred be held at

Westminster. I think Devo Plus have made a significant start. You were

not ambitious enough. Our focus initially her as a benign

the AA credibility of build a in my. Laugh cough I next piece of work is

going to be put for words about better social justice. There is not

only the flexibility, but the UK structure that reflects and is

accountable to Holyrood and the people of Scotland better. We are

in that process of work already. And that is why it is really

important that we have honesty with people that there are consequences

to both yes and no back position in the referendum. We're hoping that

their No. Side argues for enhanced bars across the her socialite comes

across the UK. There should be a long-term sustainable relationship

between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It will be a long debate.

Thank you. And now here's the lunchtime news,

with Andrew Kerr. Good morning. The former airbase at

Machrihanish on the Kintyre peninsula has been sold by the

Ministry of Defence for �1. The buyer is a company owned and

controlled by local people, who hope the site can help reinvigorate

the local economy near Campbeltown. The former RAF station was

strategically important during the Cold War. And delighted that using

the right-to-buy legislation that we have ourselves in a position

where the local community body will take over that you just sit and

make sure it works for the local community and helps them to rebuild

the local economy. Hundreds of households in the north

are being advised to take action after high levels of radon gas were

discovered in some areas. Concentrated pockets were found in

the Highlands and Deeside. It's a naturally occurring radioactive gas,

but it's been linked to cancer. Testing kits were sent to some

people last year. People who discover high results are being

urged to contact the authorities. The Edinburgh Marathon got underway

this morning. Hundreds of runners set off in the sun. It's the tenth

time it's been run and it's helped raise more than �30 million for

raise more than �30 million for hundreds of charities.

That's the news, now a look at the weather. Here's Judith.

We are still in the middle of this heatwave.

There has been cloud in the coastal areas, but that has cleared away

nicely. Everywhere is dry with lots of sunshine. Into the low twenties

already. That's it for the moment. Our next

bulletin is at 6.05pm this evening. I'll hand now hand you back to

Some of Scotland's rural towns could no longer be sustainable in

the future. That is the conclusion of a new report into the rural

economy in a time of recession. Researchers from the Scottish

Agricultural College have drawn up a vulnerability index to calculate

how current economic and social changes are affecting these rural

communities. Our reporter Gilly Mathieson has been to Dunoon, one

of the places identified as at most risk. Dunoon is one of a cluster of

row will towns which new research from the Scottish Agricultural

Centre says our most honourable to the economic downturn.

Here in Dunoon, 60% of the population are of working age and

of those who do work, 56% are employed by the public sector. That

is a lot higher than towns have a similar size across the country.

The local economy relies on the spending power of those who work

for the public sector. Although the council have promised that there

will be no compulsory redundancies, there are concerns that jobs could

be lost as the council continues to make its cuts. There is still worry

and uncertainty as we progressed. That it is like Lee to be a big

case over the next three years. This is a local charity which

offers free therapy and self help to are will swear mental health

issue. The charity says many of those that helps are under

increasing financial pressure. Until April 2011, Mehdi adults with

mental health problems who required additional help were able to access

support workers has no cost to them through the local authority. That

policy has now changed. Lots of people chose not to pay for their

support their pre- the EC has for an of in a.

As a result, as a service, we became much busier. This bakery was

founded Heron 1920s to and employs 37 for full-time staff. Business

has never been so tough. We have to distribute to Campbell's-hell and

the brown mould Nila, all these places. It is have a problem. This

is the local bookshop. She was hoping to manage the business from

home by of the bra Bank X is so poor that she is unable to handle

basic paper work. Publishers will have their

catalogues online. They send those to me and back cannot download and.

It's cannot actually you get through to the computer and blocks

it up. All the males suffer following it kept locked up. With

the public and private sector under pressure, young people here have

fewer options. Unless it is for somebody he has

got experience and his older, a fury of an purse and in this town,

you do not have the chance. Companies have just gone bust and

there is nothing for young people. The council is now led by an SNP

administration who say they were will be lots being the Scot has

Government for help to improve its infrastructure.

We must be better at connected to the rest of Scotland. Particularly

in communities like the us. If we get that our collection then

their ability for us to attract inward investment is significant.

With so many of Orrell town suffering under the economic

downturn, or what can and should be doing it to ensure their future

survival. Joining me now in the studio is one

of the authors of the SAC report Dr Sarah Skerrat and from our Bristol

studio we're joined by Robin Chater from the think-tank, The Federation

of European Employers. Is essentially what you're doing in

the report say it is special case needs to be made for rural

communities and Scotland. We're saying rural Scotland is

different to her and Scotland. Were not saying it should be privileged

or so separate. We're simply saying it is different.

Policies need to be tailored for those differences. This is

particularly crucial and times of economic downturn and scarcer

resources. Those resources need to be spent well and targeted well.

One example is concerning the ability of young people to find

jobs are much sought peace. There are initiatives another person

Scotland were scooters were provided for young people in order

for them to go to job interviews because the public transport

infrastructure simply doesn't allow that. That is where local

initiatives have stepped in because national policy frameworks are not

sufficiently targeted to those Days you agree that there is a

particular problem with rural communities gym yes, there is.

have special problems, everyone needs a car, obviously. I think

that most rural areas have a problem with employment, many

people must go off to cities and so on. You can see that in Scotland

but the 16-24-year-old seemed to go off to cities and made a comeback

in their middle years to live in rural areas, but it certainly is a

problem, particularly keeping young people. How do you fix it? You must

learn from the experience of other people. In Belgium there is a

scheme to encourage young people to set up businesses of their own.

Wanly 4% of people under the age of 25 are self employed in Europe. It

is slightly higher in Scotland, but very little is done for them. If

you are in Spain you will get a lump sum from your unemployment

benefit if you are not employed, in advance. In Italy, with the highest

level of self-employment amongst young people, half of the

population go on a special course to train you in entrepreneurship.

Do you agree with that analysis, which is that what you want to do

with youth unemployment is give young people the tools to set out

on their own rather than depending on state spending in former public

sector jobs? That is an important option, what is also important

alongside that it, equally important, is the place based

approach. Not only looking at it, but opportunities, but looking at

affordable housing. We are seeing a growth in some rural areas. A

growth in the need for housing and particularly for single occupancy

household. That is not a typical housing provision in rural areas,

housing for single people. Q also point out the number of second

homes, holiday homes. What should be done about that? I believe there

are debate in Government about council tax flexibility to allow

for different charges for how long a property is vacant, whether it is

furnished or unfurnished. I believe these discussions are ongoing.

the Scottish Government should pro actively try and reduce that

proportion of houses that are holiday homes? Which are unoccupied

for large portions of the Keir, be they holiday homes or vacant homes

that are simply unused. We need more housing, but we need the

houses to have the infrastructure. So when you houses are built, the

infrastructure must be built as well. There are vacant properties

that already have that infrastructure, and they must be

police so that young people can be housed. Businesses are tried to

grow in the rural areas and cannot house the work force because there

is no affordable housing. People might say that if community there

unsustainable then they are unsustainable, people should move

on and find jobs at light elsewhere for. They do. Only two-thirds of

the population who get degrees in Scotland actually can find a job

straight away. Many of them must move away. If Scotland has a very

good educational system compared with much of Europe and the number

of people in employment is higher in the north end of Scotland than

anywhere else in Europe. Much of that is dependent on the oil and

gas industry. In terms of local communities, how do they diversify

so they are not dependent on the public sector or on the Private

sector? 37% of people who live in rural areas are in small businesses.

Small businesses they set up. There in the Private sector and have

taken the initiative. The work in small companies. They are not

entirely dependent. If you take Scotland as a whole, all in round

23% of people in the public sector, people who have left their jobs

tend to be in local Government. People who are getting through the

educational system... Thank you very much. Sorry to Russia, we are