11/11/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news and debate, including interviews with the defence secretary Philip Hammond and deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman.

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At more link will stop welcome to it some the Olympics. Up our top


story today - the BBC is leaderless and in turmoil. After George


Entwistle resigns, calls for Lord Patten to resign as well all


because of the Newsnight report. How does the BBC restore trust


following what has been described as shoddy journalism. We will hear


from Harriet Harman and David Mellor.


Britain fell silent at 11am today to remember the war dead. And


coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Pay Day loans and those


astronomical interest rates. The Consumer Affairs Minister goes head


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1936 seconds


to head with the trade body who We are already the second-largest


donor's of humanitarian aid to the Syrian opposition. We have plans to


increase that further up the situation requires it. Sorry, we


are running out of time and I want to get on to Trident. What


consideration have you given to scrapping Trident or not renewing


it? We conducted a review and decided that Britain would be --


would remain committed. The missiles have many decades of life


left in them and the only question remaining is about replacing the


submarines which carry them. We need to be investing now it in


design and development work in order to be able to replace them in


time for that date for also up as Nick Clegg on side for this? We


have a programme where we will make the investment programme for


submarines after the next election, but in order to be able to make


that decision and 2016 we have to be able to invest in design work


and engineering work right now. That is what I was announcing.


Let's see what a former Conservative Secretary of State


With the greatest respect to Michael Portillo, he has been out


of government and out of the Ministry of Defence for a very long


time and does not have access to the information that would allow


him to make that judgment on a sound base is also up there is as


we speak at least one a Royal Navy submarine armed with Trident


missiles somewhere in the world. What exactly is it protecting us


against? It is the ultimate guarantor of our sovereignty and


independence. Protecting us from whom? I am not going to speculate


on which countries attacking us but Mac we could not use the Trident


missiles that there was a dirty bomb terror attack which is more


likely. If we were to build this new generation of submarine


missiles, we are talking about a capability which has a life of 50


or 60 years from now.I cannot know which countries could have nuclear


weapons over that period. If Iran goes nuclear, it could provoke an


arms race in the Middle East for sup for the avoidance of doubt,


you're for Trident to be renewed? That is the most efficient way to


maintain a continuous nuclear deterrent. You're watching Sunday


politics. Good afternoon and welcome to


Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: New figures


indicate the majority of people taking out high interest, pay-day


loans are in employment and using the money to pay for essentials


like heating and rent. With interest rates often in the 1,000%


bracket, it's a high price to pay for a small loan. When we met them,


they were thousands of pounds in debt and had taken on a loan of


�200. That is typical for sup can we quarantee the referendum


question will be easy to understand and unambiguous? We ask the


Electoral Commissioner for Scotland. Time is crucial and the decisions


are complex. How soon is too soon, to remove a vulnerable child from


their family home? And is the adoption process for


prospective parents taking too long?


One more payday to go before Christmas and there's concern more


people are getting into cycles of debt with payday loans - short term,


unsecured amounts borrowed at a high rate of interest whether you


get a wage or not. Citizens Advice Scotland have given us some interim


figures for a new report which suggests the vast majority of


people they see with payday loan problems are in work. Backed up by


other research, the claim is that people are using them for


essentials, not luxuries. Andrew Kerr reports.


People used pawnbrokers and the past but now it is pay-day loans


stores which have mushroomed other high streets. Credit cards and


banks are less likely to offer money to people on low income so


the filling the gap for people who cannot make ends meet. Citizens'


Advice Scotland say at least 15% of their clients have paid a own


problems. 76% of men were in work and new research has suggested that


38 per cent of pay-day loans are used for essentials. People are


getting these loans to pay their heating bills all it is not just


for luxuries. These companies charge a high interest rates.


some US states, the annual percentage rate of this kind of


loan has been capped and there are calls for this to happen in the UK.


This branch offers 1410 per set. The firms also have a high presence


online. This company can offer me �250 in 24 minutes with an APR of


4214 per cent. The problem comes when people miss a payment. One


such family turn to their MSP for help. When we met them, at the


worth thousands of pounds in debt having taken on a loan of �200.


That is typical. One of the things I reckon we have to try to do is


offset these company is. suggestion is that more access to


ethical credit unions with lower rates of interest would help.


Labour will would like more of these to be established although


point out there is a place for pay- day loans was up the government is


trying to do what they can with the power they have. The Scottish


government have powers in a variety of ways which they can use to make


it more difficult for pay-day known companies to operate in Scotland.


That would include limiting the advertising budget and a new


bankruptcy bill to help debtor's. The Scottish government say they


are already doing all they can with the powers they have. We had been


very successful marketing campaign on television encouraging people to


use debt arrangements schemes. That is the correct route for a great


many people who will be watching this interview and be worried, very


worried indeed about paying their bills. For some people, pay-day


loans can be handy close-up how did it work for you? I used it just the


once? It was OK. The industry appears to be cleaning up its act


with the new customer charter. More regulation could be around the


corner with the Office of Fair Trading reporting back soon or


reports some lenders are taking advantage of people we have


financial problems. Just before we came on air, I was joined by the


Liberal Democrat MP Jo Swinson, the UK Government's Consumer Affairs


Minister, and from our Bristol studio, Russell Hamblin-Boone. He's


the Chief Executive of the Consumer Finance Association, the trade body


that represents 70% of the payday loan market. I began by asking Jo


Swinson if there was any place for pay day loans?


Yes, and I think as we saw from the customer at the end of the film, it


can be handy for some people. There can suddenly be a big expense


before up eulogise and this can be one way that people can deal with


it. What we have seen from the banking sector over the last few


years has also had an impact on the pay the loan sector. For some


people, this can be not a problem at all. Equally, for some, this can


create a huge problem, particularly where they are being used not for


one-off expenses but to pay for the essentials as part our overall


budgeting tool. That can be unsustainable. How can you justify


giving loans to people whose financial position is


unsustainable? How can you justify these interest rates at over 1000


per cent? Be very small number of people are actually in financial


difficulty. Around 6% of pay-day known customers get into financial


difficulty and when they do, we do all we can to get them out of that


situation. We give them better advice and freeze the interest and


fees on their loans. On top of that, in terms of a PR, it does not give


a true representation of what the cost is. It is a bit like me going


into the car rental shop and being told it for cost me �15,000 a year.


It is a short-term loan and the APR is confusing people. The actual


cost of the lawn is around �25 for a very hundred pounds you borrow.


We know of some people who have borrowed a couple of hundred pounds


but can end up thousands of pounds in debt. At the moment, you can go


on to their bank accounts and take money from them. The lenders i it


is set have the limits on the number of times a loan can be


rolled over. Am that they will only do that three time this sort


prevents people from getting into excessive debt. Like other


companies, we can get access to bank accounts to withdraw the money


they owe us. We agree that with them and give them three days'


notice so they know that is happening and that happens for many


people. 70% of people pay the loan off on time in full. One of these


things that is already happening is the government is working alongside


the industry to improve the code of practice. That is about more


transparency for what the exact costs will be. It is about more


robust assessments to make sure people can afford me alone there


taking out. Some lenders have been doing that multiple times. This can


cause problems. In addition, the Office for Fair Trading is also


looking at the issue of pay-day lending. There have been concerns


expressed and there are looking at that in detail. It could be that


further action is needed on the basis of their findings. There is a


cap on loan rates in America. Should that be looked at here or


should you look at that yourself? Capping is a very blunt instrument


and trying to set prices, there are always problems if you set them to


high and you can reduce the availability of credit for people.


If you set it too low, it is not economic bowlfuls -- economic all.


In Washington, the limited the number of times you can use a lawn.


Before the restrictions were put in place, 80% of people were using


regularly to the lenders and 20 per said illegal lenders. That


situation was reversed over the period of months just am putting in


those restrictions. What would you say to critics who say there is not


enough government movement and that is a serious situation that is only


going to get worse? The code of practice comes and later this month.


As I say, we are expecting the report from the Office of Fair


Trading. It makes sense to proceed on the evidence of the facts of the


problem. There are other things we have been able to do in the


meantime. Credit unions remain an option and the government is


investing �38 million to help them improve their IT systems so they


can offer a better alternative. Generally, trying to make sure that


we help people with their cost of living because that is the real


problem here. Cutting the income tax for lower and middle earners


would help prevent people getting into the situation in the first


What a new do to help people are are already in this situation?


is part of the new code of conduct. It is important to recognise that


there is advice out their. There is the money advice service, Citizens


Advice. The best thing to do is go and get that advice. Rather than


thinking that a short-term loan is the answer. Presumably they do that


because they cannot get the money elsewhere. If they passed all those


tests they could get money from the banks. For some individuals and


difficulty it is a signal that there is a wider sustainability


issue with their finances. Perhaps getting advice earlier on,


management plans, discussions with creditors. That support is out


their. It can be difficult for people to take a deep breath and


get that advice but in the long run it is the better thing to do.


are people using pay-day loans, and what do they spend them on? It is


short-term, law commitment. Maybe people cannot use their credit


cards but do not want to go into an unauthorised overdraft because


there are fees associated with that. Around about 45% of our customers


around d A p c one the socio- economic bracket. -- are in the


ABC1. So people use these things for a variety of reasons. It is not


our place to ask why, it is our place to lend responsibility and do


a affordability checks and make sure we're not giving money to


people in financial difficulty and making the situation any more


difficult. We certainly do not want to lend to people who do not pay


back. That sounds credible but what is the reality? Some lenders act in


a responsible way but there are others who aren't. We need more


information to help people tell between the different types,


through the government, and other enforcers. The question the


Scottish Government wants to give to voters in the independence


referendum has been given to the electoral commission to be tested


for fairness. Had also monitor campaign spending. The government


estimates that conducting the poll will cost around �10 million. The


historic Edinburgh agreement. Allowing the Scot's a legally


binding vote on whether they want independence. Signed sealed and


delivered. The question? Do you agree that Scotland should be an


independent country? Critics argue that the working prompts a yes


response and would wreck of the result. Electoral commission will


now ask of Botha's, language specialists, politicians, and


academics, aware of the question is clear, simple, and a neutral. --


whether the question. The Scottish Government does not have to take


that advice but it would have some explaining to do if it turned it


down. The commission also has a key role in advising the Scottish


Government on what have become highly controversial spending


limits for the campaign in the 16 weeks up to and including the vote.


Ministers want campaigners to spend up to �750,000. The electoral


commission suggested up to �1.5 million. The Government argues that


political parties be a limit to spending �250,000. The electoral


commission has yet to set out a view on this. The Scottish


Government's concern is that the collective spending of pro-Unionist


could outstrip that of pro- independence parties. The


commission aims to make further spending suggestions in January and


to issue its few on the referendum question by February. Because


Holyrood has the final say we will not know the exact question and the


spending limits until MSPs vote on the referendum Bill later next year.


I am joined by the head of the Electoral Commission, John


McCormack. What criteria do you use to describe how much these units


should be? We want to make sure that a cap is set at such a level


that there can be the kind of campaigning which will inform


reporters about the issue, subject, and question. So that they are well


informed. Now, campaigning is very expensive. In the last Scottish


Parliament dull and it was �1.5 million. The government has


recommended a limit of �750,000. We believe that is a little bit law.


We do not want excessive spending but we need sufficient spending for


people to make a judgment. The pro- independence parties are concerned


that the pro unionist parties have a larger resource plot which will


give an unfair advantage. Do you take advantage -- account of that?


Yes, we do. The two of the campaigns have their own planet.


The biggest amount of funding they can spend. -- there or no limit.


Since it is not a parliamentary election, people who are not


members of a parliamentary party take a part, and we recommend,


again, a higher level for them than that recommended by the Scottish


Government. If so you have to look at everything together and see if


it feels fair. At the look at the question and that decisions having


to be made about the question -- if we look, you say it should be


neutral and unambiguous. As this -- is this ambiguous language? Ours is


an evidence based process. Lot of people are opining with little


evidence. We have just began the process. Their voters are at the


heart of the process. We will conduct focus groups, to understand


that people appreciate what the question means in conversation.


Focus groups work, will take place over the next eight weeks, and at


the same time we will discuss the question with people who are


interested. The Plain English Society, academics, campaigners. We


will bring all that together in one of report and give it to the


government in February. I should stress that will be a parliamentary


decision. Has there been in the past a perceived value in a


statement of fact? Such as, Scotland should be an independent


country, followed by, I agree, or I disagree? We have not conducted


research on that. Every referendum is different. We have to look at


the context. We know what the question will be with 18 months to


go. That was very unlikely for the alternative vote referendum. So at


a referendum has its own context. Will people understand? Will they


have time to know what the different outcomes will mean? So we


look at everything in its own context. Many commentators are


saying that the question is not so important because of the timescale


people have to discuss the issue. Is that valid? The question will be


the bedrock of any campaign. Voters must understand the question,


believe it is neutral. And then the campaigners can get on with making


the argument. Arguably it is the most important part of the


referendum. Do you want to offer an opinion on the advantages of


running a Yes campaign as opposed to a No campaign? Not in terms of


their merits, if but in terms of the two different words? No, I


don't want to do that! But the evidence we have talking to


specialists and researchers, we will find out all those things in


the context of the referendum. It is important to place it in the


context of the referendum. Interestingly, the information we


can been will then inform public awareness campaigns and how we


communicate with the voters as the Commission. We know the government


can reject your advice. What could be the effect of that? They would


have to publish their reasons and an addendum to the referendum Bill.


The electoral commission advice has been accepted that the time in the


past. There have been misunderstandings - people


commented that the weekend about an issue relating to a projected local


income tax referendums in England, where the UK Government did not


accept their advice and passed a bill which contain the question we


had concerns with. But no referendums were held. But since


then they have came back to us and we have since agreed on a form of


Wapping we're happy to put to voters and these referendums may


take place in the future. So if they do not take our advice in this


case, but we are content advice has been taken, they would have to


publish reasons for it. But it is correct that Parliament takes the


final decision. You must put the voter first in a democracy. They


have the influence, and their representatives in Parliament are


the right people to take that advice. What sort of timescales are


we looking at? We will submit a report in February so it can inform


the Pill as it goes through Parliament from February onwards. -


- bill. Coming up, we look at a complex task of removing a


vulnerable child from their home to place them in their careful stock


was the adoption process for potential parents take too long? --


to place them and care. Les crossover to the newsroom forced. -


Good afternoon. George Entwistle resigned and was not forced out of


his job according to the chairman of the BBC Trust. He has defended


his own role in the crisis which saw the resignation last night


following an Newsnight broadcast which alleged a senior Conservative


politician from the Margaret Thatcher either was involved in


child abuse. It proved unfounded. Lord Patten says he must remain in


his post as the BBC seek to restore public trust. There is not a


bloodbath Gailes Links yet. But a headlines were dreadful for the BBC


this morning. Ridiculed as out of touch and out of his debt, George


Entwistle last night resigned, saying it was the honourable thing


to do. That BBC should appoint a new leader. What finally put paid


to him? Admitting he did not know in advance about the inaccurate


Newsnight film and only learnt it was wrong Arras after that was


reported elsewhere. The chairman of the BBC Trust attempted to stop the


damage spreading. In the interest of the licence payer and the


audience I have to make sure that the BBC has a grip and can put the


horrendous crisis to one side for the moment. The BBC has been one of


the most respected national institutions. Some commentators say


his own job is on the line. After ship is stabilised his position


could be secured. If he does not, if there is any sense of


prevarication, he has had it. BBC's worst crisis for years,


prompted by its failure in the journalism. Leads us speak now to


our correspondent at the Broadcasting House in central


London. What is the first thing the new acting Director General will


He will have to take back decisions right away. After the broadcast


mistakenly implying that a senior Conservative politician was


imported child abuse, George Entwistle asked for a report into


the broadcast. Now, that report is due on the Director General's desk


today. If it shows that people did not do their jobs properly then it


and Davies will decide what, if any, disciplinary action will be taken.


He will also talk to Lord Patten today about the future of Newsnight


as a programme. In the last hour we have heard from Downing Street who


say that this is a very serious and difficult moment for the BBC. They


do not believe it is an existential crisis but they say that the BBC


People across the country fell silent at 11 am to remember those


who gave their lives and war. Other parades were held by British troops


The Queen, at the Cenotaph. Leading the remembrance. At the 11th hour,


are the 11th day, of the 11th month, Around the UK, the country pause to


remember. In Afghanistan at the British base, the honoured those


they have lost. For the Queen this year, there was added poignancy,


knowing her grandson is currently serving in Afghanistan. The royal


party share the worries and concerns of other military families.


From political leaders to representatives of the Commonwealth,


it is ad of calm reflection. For the veterans, the march past


remains a moment of immense pride. As another year passes, it is their


chance to honour the sacrifices of That's all the news for now. More


here at 6:00pm. Here in Scotland, people have also


fallen silent on Remembrance Sunday. Me First Minister paid tribute to


the war dead in Edinburgh and in Glasgow, hundreds of former


soldiers and their families stood beside the Cenotaph. On the 11th


hour of the 11th the of the 11th month, we gather to make our act of


Scottish Water is going to ask its customers that they want to pay


more for a better service. The public body is launching a


consultation on its future. It is the biggest test of customer


opinion since Scottish Water was formed 10 years ago.


Scotland face the first of three Bottom Test matches this afternoon.


Up it is sure to be a severe test for Scotland to have never beaten


the All Blacks in any of their 28 previous meetings. The match is a


It looks like we are being smiled on today for Remembrance Sunday.


They pride picture across most of Scotland. A bit more in the way of


cloud across the North but still some sun coming through. Quite


uneasy with the fresh north- Now, when is the right time to


remove a vulnerable child from their family home and put them up


for adoption? It's a debate that's gaining momentum at Holyrood, with


a parliamentary inquiry asking if decisions are being made quickly


enough. But there's a warning from some social workers that a push for


earlier intervention could break-up families unnecessarily. As more


people are encouraged to consider adoption, as part of national


adoption week, Hayley Jarvis has been looking at the issues.


This is our new home and we have only been here a few days. Jane is


preparing for the arrival of the two children she talks to a dot


with her husband in the new year. We have seen pictures of these


children and we fell in love. We have studied every inch of them and


it was an instinctive thing. We still have no doubt that they will


be our children and we will love them for the S of our lives. It is


good we were adopted together because we were not split up.


was adverts like this that prompted Jane and her husband to contact


Barnardos. The charity are encouraging more families to do the


same but are also putting pressure on the Scottish government to move


faster when it comes to putting neglected children into care.


their child protection issues and there is abuse, they will not delay,


but there can be a tendency to leave children too long way it is


neglect, in situations where a chap -- families are not able to meet


the standards needed. There are more than 16,000 looks after


children in Scotland. In 2010, 2% were under the age of one but the


majority were older children for whom it is more difficult to find


Secure Homes for stuck up should intervention be made sooner? It was


an issue made during a debate in Holyrood this week. There appears


to be a growing consensus that decisions need to be made more


quickly. There are a lot of different stakeholders who need to


come together to ensure we can take the work forward. We do not want to


speed things too fast in case it has negative consequences for


children. Here in Castle up, the emphasis is very much on it early


intervention. How to form those vital bonds between children and


parents in the early stages of the child's life will start some


children are referred here by social workers. A lot of our work


is about empowering the parents and insuring the parents understand


they have the skills and the talents. They can turn their lives


around. Investing in services like this is what some social workers


say is the key to preventing more children from ending up in care.


really need to ask why more children are coming into care. If


we do not know the reasons for that we cannot managed to successfully


keep more children within their families. There is no point in


having good family support services that prevent the drama and crisis


of the family break down. Up should be a presumption be to give parents


a second chance with support or should the authorities act more


quickly to remove them from their families.


Well, with me now is Neil Hunter, who is the principal reporter of


the children's reporter administration, which takes many of


the key decisions in the adoption process, and Barbara Hudson who is


the Scottish Director of the British Association for Adoption


and Fostering. Before we look at the process of


adoption and how long that takes, to pack up on a point in the film,


if it is obvious the child is being abused they can be removed quickly,


but it is this great ad up of neglect. Do you except that is a


big problem? I would totally endorse what was said in the film.


There is the real problem in understanding what we mean by


neglect and what the impact is. Neglect means not being the child


in mind are not thinking about what they have to meet our weather may


feel comfortable or says. Neglect means a child waking up and not


knowing what is there for breakfast and not feeling safe going to sleep


at night. The effect of neglect is long term because it begins to wear


away at a child's sense of self- esteem, confidence and happiness.


That is not the good start. Have we underestimated the effect in the


past? And up to put it starkly, if we have not seen bruises on


children, our attention has perhaps been distracted. Understanding the


needs of very small children and how important it is for them to


have the optimum care to flourish. We have focused on demonstrating


that injury has a card and not understood that not receiving love,


care, and that tension is abuse. It is neglect and it is abused. Once


the difficult decision is made that the child is permanently removed


from their birth family and put up for adoption, what is happening in


the speed with which that is taking place? The delay in the process


took place before that. One of the things our research has shown us


that after the child has been removed from their home, there is a


period in which we start to think about the possibility of a return


to the parents and it assessing it parent will capacity. The ability


to safely look after the child in the long term is one of the things


that can take some time to decide. One of the things we can do to


improve arrangements and Scotland is looking at headlines surrounding


Pendle capacity. -- time lines. Presumably if you do not do that,


the figures suggest the average time is two years', which is a


massive amount of time in a child's life. I am very optimistic about


parents' ability to recover from things like alcohol problems but we


need to understand that can take many years. Two or three years to


recover from issues parents are facing in the context of a young


child creates a disconnect for sup what should happen to the child in


those circumstances? We have to be able to work to plan a if that is


about returning to parents. We have to be hoped for of that but have an


alternative plan in the background which can be brought into play it


when it becomes obvious parents cannot look after their children.


Do you have any concerns about that time scale? Some critics of the


present process say that for too long, parents have been given the


benefit of the doubt to the detriment of the child. Is it OK to


say they could be fine in a couple of years' time? It is a hugely


complicated and very important decision and what happens is that


everyone in the system recognises the lifelong and life-changing


significance of the decisions. There is a real desire to get it


right and sometimes we will never know if we got it right. You have


to take a risk and make the decision on balance. We know that


the damage done to children of living a provisional existence, not


knowing what is going to happen to them, their temporary foster carers


and what will happen to them, that is damaging. The delay is damaging


and we need to try to work together to have confidence in the


efficiency of the process and realising that if we take these


bold decisions for children, that people will support what is being


done rather than getting into a culture of blame. Interesting way,


it is extraordinarily rare flurry Sheriff to say the social work


department should never have been involved. It is extremely rare for


them to say we got it wrong right from the start. It is very much a


case of how long it takes to get to a position where we decide it is no


longer feasible for the child to consider the birth parents as their


carers for the rest of their lives. Everyone watching this would Asim


it is a hugely complex process you have to go through it. We do not


have time today to discuss the alternative of keeping children


with parents. I just wondered, would it be the case and do you


have any concerns that different children seething sea around the


country because of their own cultural make-up might come to a


different decision about a child with the same set of circumstances?


I would hope there would be consistency across the country.


Children's panel members are drawn from the community and it reflects


the cultural make-up of the community. I would hope that faced


with the good quality information around children and their


backgrounds, they have won decision to make and that is about the best


interests of the child. I would hope that is consistent across the


country. I would agree that we are not always confident there is that


consistency across the country. Because the amount of work is


different in different places, the challenge facing people and some ad


is is that they're making decisions are very rarely of this


significance and that is the challenge for them, whereas in


other places they are routinely looking at these matters of up one


of the things we are seeking to work together through our


respective organisations and other groups, is to try to get it more


co-ordinated across Scotland. I do not think there is much


disagreement and it is very much about how we all get together and


Do you think a co-ordinated response is needed? We are working


together to share exactly wrecking the practice that are at describes


to the best effect possible. I look Weeks of speculation over the


future of the Scottish Football Manager Craig Levein came to ahead


when the Scottish FA announced he had been sacked. We need a new


manager to turn around the campaign and move us for what. Alex Salmond


is the longer selling First Minister in Scotland, his sights


are now set on another goal. I am not saying I will go on and on. I


want to see Scotland win the referendum. More homework on the


horizon for prospective teachers as the Government proposes a literacy


and numeracy tests to raise standards. And the chance in a


lifetime was bloated on when scalp the islanders voted in a referendum


to run their island for the of charge. It needs to be done for the


good of the island. That time of the day now where we take a moment


I am joined by the SNP locker Kate Hogan's, and Labour commentator,


Ian Smart. Thank you both for coming in. The headlines - the BBC


all over the front pages. Where is this going? It could not get any


more bizarre or serious for the BBC. I would agree with lots of


commentators to death. If they can get a grip and steady the ship,


then a joint -- then at the sad resignation of the George Entwistle


will have sorted things out. But, from my perspective, it is


important to get the story back on to the victims and not the media.


Where does this go from here? an extraordinary development. In my


day job their last line of any police statement is, I cannot I


cannot identify the accused. To run the report without that assumes his


astonishing. You could not make it up. I just wonder about the


illegality of Newsnight not mentioning some body by name but in


the context of a wider social media context. That is an interesting


legal issue, apart from anything else. Yes, but it was a pretty


narrow group of people they were identifying. A senior member of the


Thatcher either, but not elected. You were talking potentially have a


dozen people. The curious would immediately gone to the Internet to


find out who was being talked about and they knew that perfectly well.


When the lawyers said that they could not name the man and a


programme, alarm bells should have been ringing. Well be on Newsnight.


There is something about people who use social media. We are two such.


They need to show restraint and responsibility in how the use it.


The more that the situations arise where people are wrongly named for


the world to see, then the more likely that we will have


restrictions, legal restrictions, on how you can use social media.


For the victims, potentially? Absolutely. That is the worst thing


that could happen. People who would have been thinking about coming


forward and making disclosures will see the environment changed and


think about something very different. If people must put them


first and think about their needs and interests first. Earlier on we


spoke about Pete -- pay-day loans. What changes can be brought an


effectively? They are not illegal. I don't hold to the view that they


shouldn't be illegal. For riskier credit, people pay a premium, that


is the way of the world, but it should not be impossible to say


that some of these are ludicrous interest rates are made illegal. I


might be wrong but I have a memory of such look -- interest rates


being illegal. At some point in the deregulation that led to the crash


somebody decided that it should be for the market to decide. A


shocking situation. There are so Captain America. What should happen


here? -- there is a cap in America. They should be made illegal. They


prey on the vulnerable. Law income people in vulnerable people should


invest in credit unions, access to the same financial services and


benefits that the rest of us enjoy. There is something wrong with a


society and system that rewards are rich people for being able to pay


their gas bills by direct debit, and punishes poor people because


they rely on weekly payment methods. We have to move away from that and


create a level playing field for poor people so that they enjoy the


St benefits as others. Outlawing pay-day loans is an essential part


of that. Labour for independence have been meeting tomorrow. Who Ali


and what effect will it have? are they? I did not mean that in a


loaded way. Dennis can have an is a long-standing friend of mine but he


is not a member of the Labour Party. Neither is Ricky Ross. He might


have voted for Labour in the past. Socialists for independence? To be


fair, we have them. Colin Fox, the not to be forgotten man of Scottish


politics. There are people on the left who support independence but


the idea that there is some kind of secret section of the Labour party


that supports independence is nonsense. I think it is a


legitimate organisation and more power to them. Labour minded people


coming together to support independence is a very good thing


for the Yes movement. Are we to tied into labels? Absolutely. To


have to categorise people is unhelpful. Both camps actually hack


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.

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