04/11/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Including UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and David Willetts on Lord Heseltine's growth plan.

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Could Britain


thrive and prosper outside the European Union? Cabinet Minister


Iain Duncan Smith's gave every impression this morning that Yes We


Can! We'll ask Business Minster David Willetts what he makes of


that. It's our top story. They're flying high in the polls


and - they say - winning the arguments on Europe, but can the UK


Independence Party really stand up to the scrutiny that comes with


success? Leader Nigel Farage joins us for the Sunday Interview.


Which of these two men would you like to see in the White House?


With the US election three days away Diane Abbott and Dan Hannan go


head to head on whether Obama or Romney would be better for Britain.


And coming up here in Scotland: Is it time for a radical rethink of


Scotland's drug abuse strategy - as more people are becoming addicts


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1842 seconds


If you're worried about the debt you should be worried about Mitt


Romney. How does he make the deficits good? This is why the


Washington Post and be New York Times refused to endorse them.


Their economic plans do not add up. He wants massive unfunded tax cuts.


He wants an increase in its defence spending. The USA is already in


debt to the tune of 14 trillion. you look at the plan, it is a plan.


We know that with Barack Obama the deficit will draw. There is the


certainty of continued debt. people in Florida thought the plan


was good, Mitt Romney would have gone down. Nobody is going to


return to a balanced budget within one turn, but with Mitt Romney we


have somebody who will try. Even Barack Obama's foreign policy is


alien to British values. There has been a rise in drones over Pakistan.


There is no progress in Middle East peace. I regret the use of drones.


But he has taken America out of a rut -- out of Iraq. Would it be a


return it to Bouch? He implies he is prepared to attack Iran. He


knows nothing about Britain or Europe. He said there was a


cultural component in the success of his real compared to the rest of


the region. He had no kind words. That is not the same as despising


the Palestinians. He said they did not want peace. Under both US


presidents there will be forced on the table as an option as there was


in Libya. I was not big on the Iraq war or the Afghanistan war. But to


say that they should not be any possibility of taking any kind of


action is not responsible. action is on the Pacific Rim. He


does not care about Europe and the UK. Barack Obama's foreign policy


is cheaper. Mitt Romney is more likely to bomb Iran. The who will


win? Barack Obama. If turnout is right it will be Barack Obama.


Therefore I will put my money on Good morning.


As Holyrood prepares to debate the Scottish governments drugs strategy


and will be finding out if this residential rehab centre for


addicts is only half full. Alex Salmond is set to become the


longest serving First Minister of Scotland. How has he done?


And more on the race to the White House. Does the Trident debate give


Holyrood and presented focus in Washington.


An emergency summit is to be held next month to discover why


occupancy rates at Scotland's residential drug treatment centres


are sold. With Holyrood debating the drug strategy this week one


addiction expert says the residential option is dying off in


Scotland. There is a bright future for one


recovering drug addict. majority of my peer group are doing


well. Without this project I do not know where I would be. This man it


spent 20 years on methadone until his spell in residential rehab.


More than 24,000 people are given methadone in Scotland. The


programme is under review after deaths linked to methadone. The


Liberal Democrats say the programme should not be used as a scapegoat


for what is a complex issue. Labour say methadone is not working. The


Conservatives are calling for more residential sectors.


There are some incredible stories of recovery, but there is a warning


that places like this may not survive in the long term in


Scotland. The residential sector is dying.


need to know whether we want it to die. When we compare like with like,


residential treatment is no more expensive than other forms of


treatment. Since last year residential treatment centres have


been reporting low levels of occupancy. In Inverness it stands


at 40 %. Banner measures to some it is being held next month to find


out why people are not being repaired. The policy is there.


There is a grassroots momentum. There may be something in the


middle blocking it. It may not be one thing or one person. It may be


101 different things. Although supporters of residential rehab I


knew it is cost-effective there are equally strong arguments about cost


on the other side and also on the benefits of methadone. It decreases


the death-rate in those were prescribed it at least five or six


cold. It decreases drug abuse and crime. It might be possible to get


drug three and even mentally healthy while staying in a country


house somewhere, but they have to come back, usually to the council


estate where they live. A at a debate about treatment continues


their race is on to find effective strategies to help the 65,000


people struggling with drug addiction.


Joining me now in the studio are Ruth Davidson and William Rennie.


Also joining the is Mark McDonald. Mike McDonald, and you will be one


of the key speakers in the debate. What is the policy of the


government on residential care? Very charitable to describe me as a


key speaker. Residential rehab has a role to play as part of the


bigotry that agenda. The figures that are being shown to me show


that there are low levels of waiting list for people who need


residential rehab. The issue is about need. It is around clinical


assessment of the needs of the individual. No two individuals are


the same when it comes to addiction and the need for rehabilitation. So


be to categorise residential rehab as a suitable for all addicts would


be a mistake. We have to offer a package of measures. Given that


there is a residential care package, it all comes as one, it seems that


from the numbers that we have discovered in a report, it has not


been used as widely as it was being used five years ago. Is that a


deliberate policy? Have you decided it is less effective than other


methods of treatment? What you need to do is offer a range of different


treatments, dependent on the needs of the individual. For some people


residential rehabilitation will be the most suitable option. You


package was talking about looking further ahead to a sum at which


will discuss these matters. I am sure that the government and all


politicians will be taking a keen interest to see what the outcome of


the sum that is. 40 % occupancy end summer residential rehabilitation


centres. As that concern you? it does. The one that has featured


in the package there is in my area of Glasgow. That is at 50 %. There


is a big problem in Glasgow. This is only have the story. You pack is


did not say that the number of rehab centres has been reduced to


23 since the new drug strategy for Scotland came in. Fewer beds and


still in some cases on they have of them are being filled. We have to


find out what the blockage is. People are not get any opportunity


to go in there. There seems to be a specific problem with referrals


into the system, rather than a specific policy decision, even


accepting what you have said about the fall in numbers. If you are to


have a sophisticated response to this what should be done? It should


be based on need. Budgets are tighter. Residential care is much


more expensive. I am sure that is a factor in commiseration. --


consideration. 1st May experts said that it is not this sally Moore


expensive. -- it is not Mrs Sally more expensive. -- are not more


expensive. You need to have the support mechanisms. You have now


got things like recovery cafes which create a support network for


people to get into. They can extract themselves from their


environment that slip into drugs. It is not for politicians to decide


what kind of care people should get. It should be left that to the


health professionals. They work with this day in and day out.


Politicians do not know how to deal with the decisions. Leave it to the


health professionals. Just to clarify the policy, I know that you


say it is dependent on the individual and that would be


reflected in how the doctors allocate places and what a treat at


the pink is appropriate, but if the number of residential


rehabilitation unit has closed down and there is this ongoing under


occupancy and the number of drug users is increasing and the number


of drug death is increasing, this would seem to suggest that the


policy is dead. We have the lowest level of drug users and the


population for one decade. It is constantly in decline. We have the


lowest numbers among its young people using drugs for one decade.


That is the backdrop to which the debate should be framed. You have


to profile the services that should be offered. I think William Rennie


and aye are clear on this. It is about need. The point is about


clinicians taking the best decisions on behalf of the


individuals. If you ask clinicians what people need they will take the


decision that is most appropriate for the individual. Just to clarify


the statistics. The estimated number of individuals with a drug


problem in Scotland A's 59,000, compared with 55,000 in 2006. That


is an estimated increase of 4,300 individuals since 2006. There is a


particular problem with the number of women regarding drug fatalities.


That figure has jumped to 117 % increase. It shows that methadone


is reasonably successful. It is quite effective at keeping people


alive and healthy. That is part of the reason why these numbers have


changed. That is the reality. you look at the methadone programme


and leaving aside the cost, even though it is a huge cost, there is


also the cost in lives. More people now died taking methadone then be


to taking heroin. It cost lives. When the drug strategy was brought


in, drug deaths was cited as one of the reasons. That was one of the


reasons why needed strategy to work. Look at the soaring numbers. The


number has gone up. One of the reasons that we were so supportive


of the drug strategy was to be wanted treatment to be part of a


cure so that people could be help of long term at use. Met the don't


can stabilised people's lives, but some people need to be put on a


reducing does so that they do not spend 20 years on it. A I am not


suggesting we should not have different approaches. But you said


it was a simplistic approach. problem with what Ruth Davidson is


saying is that she is saying that methadone as part of the problem.


But the good that she quotes -- the figures that she courts include


other drugs. What about the tone of the debate? The Daily record


campaign was deplorable. It was unacceptable. Methadone has changed


the lives of drug users dramatically. Russia does not have


the programme that Scotland has got. HIV rates among subjecting drug


users in the Russia is 35 %. It is below five % year. That is


staggering. We should not blame methadone for that problem. This


overall strategy and it was introduced have wide support. Will


that support hold or does this strategy you require to be refined?


The support is there for the strategy. The comments of Ruth


Davidson are over the top. We do not want to see people dying as a


result of drug use whatever drug that may be, but we are talking


about less than one-fifth of drug users in treatment or on prescribed


drugs. There is a big picture out there. To focus the debate so


narrowly on to the use of methadone misses the bigger picture. I would


hope that the Scottish Conservatives when they come to the


debate will have something more to say that simply bashing the


methadone programme. Do you accept that the bigger picture includes


deprivation, poverty, lack of job opportunity in many of the


communities? Absolutely. There are a range of different factors that


affect an individual becoming a drug user. One of the. It was made


earlier during the discussion was around support. I have met a number


of organisations who are supporting families to enable them to support


the individual because one of the worst things that can happen is if


the individual loses their ties to the family. We need to look at it


as our whole strategy. We need to look at how are families and others


can play a role in the support of the individual. And you'll have


Alex Salmond will soon become the longest serving First Minister. How


has he done? We have been looking back. The modern Scottish


Parliament has seen four first ministers.


Death took Donald Stewart, a so- called middle over office removed


Henry McLeish. Defeat did for Jack McConnell, but Alex Salmond goes on.


This is him arriving at this week's First Minister's Questions, a


familiar routine five years after he first got the job. He often


starts conversations with advises asking, are we winning? In recent


years, the answer has been yes, but sometimes only just. The 2007


elections saw Mr Salmond to beat Labour by a slim margin, just one


seat, but it was enough. I heard a rumour. I think we won the


election! I think the election of Alex Salmond as the first SNP First


Minister of Scotland was significant, because until then


they were just an oppositional party, marginal to British politics


and devolution. Even after devolution, it took a number of


years before the SNP were fit to govern. One of his first challenges


was winning the Commonwealth Games for Glasgow. He lobbied delegates


and voters. It was a formula which would deliver him the biggest


victory of his political career four years later. I heard another


rebuff. We have won another election! It certainly was an


endorsement of Alex Salmond, but also the team that he had built


around him. That is one of his skills, the teams he built around


him. It was about his vision for the future. His days as First


Minister have not been uncontroversial, not least the


release of the Lockerbie bomber. The last fortnight has probably


been his worst as a row has reached over EU legal advice. But the


politician remains personally popular. He is doing extremely well


by any yardstick. Only in recent times could Tony Blair in his


heyday have had ratings which exceed where Sam and -- Alex


Salmond is. Alex Salmond is more popular. It is no coincidence that


support for independence is going down, support for the SNP is going


down, and satisfaction with the First Minister is going down, and


that is all happening at the same time. And that is tied up with the


referendum. Alex Salmond's place in Scottish history does but depend on


the length of his service as First Minister. Delivering the referendum


guarantees he will be remembered. His next challenge will be winning


that vote. Victory, and he will be in the job for many more years to


come. Defeat, and his time as First Minister it may be more limited.


With me now is Murray Ritchie, the longest serving Scottish Political


Editor of the Herald. That itself deserves an award! And in an hour


and the studio, Henry McLeish, former Labour First Minister.


If you look at Alex Salmond's personal journey, he has


fundamentally changed personal positions on NATO, most recently,


on the monarchy, on Stirling, yet he has always maintained his social


justice position. What does that tell us? He is obviously the major


figure in Scottish politics by a mile row. He has changed his


position of all the parties on major issues. If you look now at


the Labour Party, their attitude on Trident has changed. Johann Lamont


has embraced Trident now, and that is a weapon in store for the SNP.


The Tories, David Cameron has said that if we reject independence,


there will be a new constitutional settlement for Scotland, which is


new. The Tories have not said that for a while. The last time they


said it, it turned up to Peter Reid -- to be true. And the Liberals are


rediscovering federalism. They are talking about a federal Scotland if


we reject independence. So he is not just changing SNP policy, but


the policies of the other parties as well. This is all down to the


SNP's success in the last election and his leadership which was the


major factor in that success. he is not a man he was burdened by


self doubt. What is the balance here? If you have someone he was


very dynamic and can have the sort of influence that Murray has


outlined, you cannot afford to be coming across as arrogant to the


public. What kind of balance is he striking? The balance he strikes is


the one that in politics, it is always better to get respect and to


be like to -- light. He does not show popularity in all quarters of


Scotland, but he does show dynamic leadership. He is changing the face


of Scottish politics. More importantly, he is also defined the


laws of politics by winning the majority in 2007. Parliament was


set up in Scotland to make sure that did not happen. He has brought


his party from being a protest party on the fringe to being a


majority force in Scotland. The tea -- the judicious combination of


Scottishness and firm leadership has won through with the public.


The public do not support independence to any great extent,


but they have nevertheless voted for competent government and a


Scotland that is moving forward. Unlike predecessors, including


myself, he does speak for the nation. This is the important


difference. He is the lead of Polly route, but also a national leader.


That is important when they are discussing constitutional issues.


You are right. Alex can be arrogant, he can be insistent on things, but


look also at the fact that he has shown courage. The Libyan bombing


incident, that was good for Scotland, not liked by the public


at the time, but a fair decision, and he took it. Just before we


leave this, I use saying that Johann Lamont, as leader of


Scottish Labour in Holyrood, she cannot speak for Scotland?


course she can, she aspires to be the leader in that parliament and


to be a national leader. That is not the issue. Since the Alex


Salmond's election, he has dominated Scottish politics, and


the reason for that is that the Unionist parties have lost traction


in the post devolution period. He has taken the idea of Scottishness,


the Saltire, patriotism and pride, and he has wrapped his party around


it. The other parties have failed to do that. The other parties could


learn from the First Minister's and reconfigure their policies. That is


the great weakness, currently top of the Unionist parties. Let me


give you a quote from the former chair of the Scottish Council for


Voluntary organisations. She said that loyalties were negotiable, but


now politics is a punter free zone of poisonous tribalism. Is that a


picture you recognise? Yes, it is. I think there is a poisonous


tribalism in Scottish politics. I can go back to the days of the


original Scottish Labour Party. But the vitriol that was poured on some


people at that time was awful. This is the attitude that a lot of


senior people in the Scottish Labour Party have, you are either


for us are your against us. -- or you are against us. All the parties


have to recognise that the parliament was supposed to be


consensual, the opposite of the Westminster adversarial system. We


were supposed to work together a lot more. When you watch First


Minister's Questions now, as I do it my retirement, it is not


inspiring to watch people standing up and reading scripted insults and


name-calling. We have to rise above that. Henry, I'll have to ask you


to come back to that later, because you are both staying with us, and


we will be looking at the American election and some of the latest


from the newspapers, but right now, let's cross over to London for the


race with -- news with Maxine Mawhinney and Andrew Kerr.


Good afternoon. The US presidential candidates are heading into the


final two days of campaigning, with the outcome still too close to call.


The latest survey suggests that Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are


level, with 48% each of support. No matter how bad a storm is, we


bounced back. No matter how tough times are, we are all in this


together. We rise or fall as one nation and one people.


A final push for votes as the clock ticks towards Tuesday's vote.


Barack Obama is asking for more time to change America. The former


president was brought into help him make his case. His challenger at


Mitt Romney is not letting up either. Both candidates are truth -


- are frantically trying to attract undecided voters in battleground


states. The economy is the big issue of this election.


question of this election can stand this. Do you want more of the same,


what do you want real change? Barack Obama promised change, but


he could not deliver it. I promise change, and I have a record of


achieving change. The two contenders both have a punishing


Schedule ahead of them today. Barack Obama will go to New


Hampshire and then Florida and Ohio. Mitt Romney will go to Ohio first


and then to Pennsylvania. In this vast country, millions of Americans


have already cast their ballots in the early voting to. I am voting


for Barack Obama. He is making some changes. I feel like with Barack


Obama being in office for the next election, things will change for


the better in America, regardless. An opinion poll today but the


candidates each at 48%, with just two days of campaigning left. The


election is still too close to call. Previously unseen text messages


between David Cameron and Rebekah Brooks have been published by the


Mail on Sunday. The messages are from a series of text messages and


e-mails handed to Lord Justice Leveson during his media standards


inquiry. The Children's Commissioner for


Wales has backed calls for a new inquiry into the abuse of children


in care homes in North Wales in the 1970s and 80s. The commissioner


says he suspects a group of people were protected, enabling MPs to


continue. Winter is definitely here and snow


has been falling in the South West of England, covering parts of


Somerset and Wiltshire in up to three inches of the white stuff. He


was have sent in their pictures of the snow. It has already caused


disruption on the roads as well as a suspended do service this morning.


That is all the news for now. There is more news on BBC One at 5:50pm.


Good afternoon. A huge piece of an aircraft carrier is to be floated


in the Clyde. It is the last part of a ship to be moved to Rosyth.


Stephen Cottrell is at the BAE yard systems -- BAE Systems yard in


Govan. This is the largest section of the


Queen Elizabeth class career built here in Govan. It will be assembled


in Fife. The process of getting it there has already been affected by


the weather. The original plan was to take it round the northern tip


of Scotland, but it will now go around the southern coast of


Scotland. It will be in Fife in nine days.


Trains between Dundee and Aberdeen are suspended after a minor


derailment. The cross-country service came off the tracks that


Inverkeilor in Angus before 10am today. No-one was injured. It is


not clear when the line will reopen. The Aberdeen shares in at -- Emeli


Sande was a big win at the medal awards last night. She scooped


three separate titles. The event was held in Liverpool.


The showers we have had in the South and West will begin to pull


away into the Atlantic, and then the bulk of the country will be dry


and bright, with sunshine in the North and West. Today, we have a


south-easterly wind which is coming off the North Sea, so cloudier in


the North East. Top temperature, Strap yourselves in. It is time for


With the in the studio is Dr Christopher Carman from Strathclyde


University. Still with me is Murray Ritchie and Henry McLeish. Looking


at their headlines today regarding the presidential election, it has


been described as the longest, got ears, silliest election ever.


There are some of the other headlines. How are you calling it


at this stage? Their close. There is a disconnect between national


polls and state level polls. The national polls have it very close.


The state level polls are the interesting ones. Or high York is a


big one. Wisconsin and Florida at others. -- Ohio. It is where the


polls break in these states. We are interested in Ohio, Wisconsin -


they are breaking four or armour -- they are breaking for Barack Obama.


If we look at the possibility of a Trident free Scotland and a nuclear


disarmed UK how would that be seen in the White House? Mitt Romney


tends to reflect Barack Obama in some of these big issues. Mitt


Romney kept saying he supported a lot of what Barack Obama had said


in the third televised debate. They have not specifically committed on


Trident, but I would speculate they would both be in favour of keeping


Trident actor of. They would be in favour of a strong NATO. If we look


at something else, Gordon Brown is saying that an independent Scotland


would be a British colony. He said under SNP plans that would be


perfect. What you think of that and by


saying it now? It is unfortunate that the word Colonial has been


used. It was a thoughtful piece. He is saying that no matter what the


relationship between Scotland and the UK is after independence, we


will still be dealing with the United Kingdom. For me it does


highlight the point that we're based with two options.


Independents or Unionism. If you read between the lines of the


Gordon Brown article he is saying we need more devolution. I suspect


that idea of being part of the UK is acceptable to most Scots, but I


want to see more home rule powers. I think basically that Gordon Brown


is reinforcing my message. What about the timing? He has been


below the radar or a lot of this. That is true. I have spoken to


Gordon Brown over the last six months about his views on the


constitutional question. I did he has shifted in his view. He does


not have much truck with independence. On other hand


hopefully he will start to argue that secures Scotland in the UK is


the best bet for the future. If you do not want independence let us


have maximum home rule. With an independent Scotland be a British


colony? He was talking about the Bank of England under control might


have over the Scottish economy. The bag of England is a British


institution and therefore some of it belongs to Scotland. Alex


Salmond will welcome Gordon Brown coming back into the political


scene and asking questions. This referendum will be won or lost on


the economy. If enough people could be persuaded that they would be


better off, the SNP would win the referendum. We should welcome


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser. Including UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and David Willetts on Lord Heseltine's growth plan.

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