03/03/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday politics. The Prime Minister


has returned to fight back after the disappointment at the Eastleigh


by-election. How is it going down with his fellow ministers? We will


ask business secretary Vince Cable whether the government can carry on


cutting and stimulate growth. He is our Sunday interview.


This is deep Celtic diet. And are the plans of Michael Gove


for teaching history a horror bought bought just what the doctor


ordered it? We will have a debate on the plans.


And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: we will be asking, has


the Scottish Catholic Church lost its moral authority after the


events of the past week involving All that and a political Dannatt


offering more fun and excitement then you will find this side of a


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1969 seconds


post by-election pub crawl around The new curriculum assessed that


children at I have to learn the unique evil of the Holocaust. There


are several problems with that. First it is a moral lot ahistorical


approach. Secondly the uniqueness The that is exactly what is going


on now. I have never heard 88 about the Holocaust in a school. It is


taught as a moral issue. We are green on this.


How can you understand a Holocaust without understanding something


about anti-Semitism or understanding Germany? Germany does


not appear in this curriculum at all.


I'll take you at your word. You say you dislike myths and hero worship.


Why is Mary C Cole there? Have you looked at the text on her. She is


designs to be the antecedent. Did you hear about by an hour but going


on about blond-haired blue-eyed nurses in the NHS. We want good


Jamaican nurses. She is being invented as the heroine and patron


of those nurses. This is dominated by current political concerns.


There I am in agreement with you. People need to be taught to look at


someone like her and asked some difficult and awkward questions.


The new curriculum does not combine historical skills on one hand with


the fact. It just has the facts. So are we now agreeing that the


current curriculum has fundamental problems. They give need. I have


never seen any evidence in the teaching materials then there is


any debate on this at all. A you get the final word as he gets


it a lot. The current curriculum does the


narrative of the British history from the age of 11 to the age of 14.


There is another bunch of problems about post 14 education. The


curriculum is centred on a narrative of British history with


some wild and the European history. The current one is missing that. --


song world and European history. A one final point. It really is


wrong. The campaign for the retention of Mary C Cole in the


current curriculum was headed by a list of signatories. It is


politically and left wing at skewed. It is a product of the last


government and needs demolishing now.


We will see how many of our viewers have never heard of her as well.


You both get 100 lines for overrunning. It is approaching


11:40am. You are watching Sunday Good morning and welcome to Sunday


Politics Scotland. Coming up: One of the priests who


complained about Cardinal O'Brien's behaviour claims he feared the


Vatican would crush him if they could. A church crisis of historic


proportions which shows no sign of abating. Brace yourself.


The under occupancy benefit cut will start next month. Is everyone


ready for the introduction of this welfare reform? Canny Scottish


government help those affected? -- can be Scottish Government.


And what does a no vote in 2014 mean? What are you being offered at


the moment? What would a Scotland that stays within the UK look like?


Speaking truth to power. A key figure behind the allegations


against Cardinal Keith O'Brien says he may need counselling after a


traumatic week. The former priest says he fears the Vatican would


crush him if they could. He and three other men complained about


inappropriate behaviour. Keith O'Brien contests the allegations.


The fall-out from last weekend's allegations surrounding Cardinal


Keith O'Brien show little sign of dying down. The story once again


dominates this morning's paper. The Observer, which broke the story


last week, gives more details about why the former priest made the


allegations of public. He says he was a seminarian when the priest


acted inappropriately towards him. He and three others reported the


incidents dating back to the 1980s to the Vatican in February. The


priest told the newspaper that since going public he has


experienced the cold disapproval of the Church hierarchy for breaking


ranks. He describes the trauma of speaking true to power. He said he


thought it best that churchgoers knew what had been going on. He


According to the paper, the former cleric said he feared the matter


might be swept under the carpet. He added that when they came forward


they will warns that were the allegations known they could cause


immense damage to the church. Cardinal Keith O'Brien says the


contests all allegations made against him and is seeking legal


advice. Despite that he resigned as Archbishop on Monday last week. He


was the most senior Roman Catholic cleric in Britain. He was due to


retire later this month when he turned 75. He will not take part in


the conclave to elect the new Pope. The Vatican is investigating the


allegations against him. There has been no response from the


Scottish Catholic Church this morning. For more analysis, we can


now talk to the journalist Catherine Deveney, who broke the


story in the Observer last week. She is in our Inverness studio. And


here with me, the leading Scottish historian from Edinburgh University,


Bersted Catherine, this man sounds like he has been under immense


pressure. -- first to Catherine. I think he has been from the media


and people who want to out him. There is a real danger when we call


for people to be named but we assume that people who have


experienced dramatic at bents are somehow public property. --


traumatic events. It is worth noting that these people are not


anonymous. They have given a signed and sworn statements to the Vatican,


exactly as they were asked to do by the church. It was only the


reaction of the Church to those complaints that made them fear they


would not be dealt with properly and it was at that point that they


went public. They are telling a story that is in the public


interest. That does not mean to say they lose all their rights as


individuals. Tom, initially you were calling for


the men to come forward and make themselves known. Hearing what we


have heard there, is it best that they stick in the sidelines?


The thing has moved on rapidly now. My initial reaction was based on


the day the news came out. I can quite understand the point that


Catherine has made. I think that is water under the bridge now. The


process in Rome, which seems to have been activated very speedily


indeed, ought to be allowed to take its course. My concern, obviously,


is deep concern for they individuals involved and that


includes the cardinal. That is the issue of natural justice and that


these allegations were anonymous. These are issues in the past. We


need to move forward. There is a conclave about to start so these


things will not happen quickly. Eventually an appropriate judgment


must come from the Vatican. You are right to point out that the


Cardinal does contest these allegations. Catherine, how do you


think the Scottish Catholic Church has handled the allegations?


I have been very disappointed by the way they have handled the


allegations. They say they do not know the specifics of the


allegations and that is simply not true. I was asked to the day before


the story broke in the Observer to put the allegations in writing to


the Catholic Church. I did so. They had many specific allegations from


the four individuals concerned but, more than that, my e-mail ended


with a direct question. I said, is its truth that the Cardinal has


broken his vow of celibacy? You could not get a more specific


allegation of anything than that. For the Church to say they did not


know what he was being accused of were simply not true. It is very


disappointing that they took that line.


Now let us pick up on that point. I think we're talking here not


about the Church but about the media operation of the church. The


Catholic Media Office often speaks out very quickly and often without


a degree of cautious restraint. But it has been virtually silent on


this issue. There has been an almost media hire a toss.


We have tried to contact the Catholic Media Office today. Where


does this leave the moral authority of the Catholic Church in Scotland?


Before the ordinary Catholic in the pew, this has been devastating and


a shop but in the long run what is important to people is that actual


fate. The number of mass attenders will not go down because of this


but the public reputation of the Church has been affected. This is


why the process has to happen speedily and effectively so that


eventually it will come into the public and the main exactly what


has happened. -- the public domain. The Church has got to be seen to be


doing this effectively and thoroughly and not in any way


obfuscating. Or, as has been stated by Catherine, misleading the media.


This has been the biggest crisis for the Catholic Church since the


Reformation? So as the prominent Catholics on


Newsnight rejected this view. The Catholic Church has been through


major tribulations since the Reformation in Scotland but this


has been an internal scandal. This has happened because of


developments within the church, or lead to difficulties within the


Church. All the other things that happens to the Roman Catholic faith


since the Reformation have been because of external forces. This is


why this problem has gone global. Every major newspaper in the world


has a story on this. It has put Scotland on the front pages of the


world's media. Katharine, Scotland at the


forefront of this debacle. The Catholic Church has emerged from


the sidelines recently and become quite active politically, taking


part in discussions on equal marriage and so on. One may still


be able to do that now? A lot of rehabilitation has to go


on for the Catholic Church. If you have a voice in society you have to


earn that voice and have moral authority. The church is excellent


where it speaks out on matters of justice and peace and for the poor


and oppressed but unfortunately the territory the Church has chosen to


inhabit publicly are all matters of sexual morality and we have seen


that it is in sexual morality that the Church should not be speaking


publicly. I would like to see them have more humility and less


arrogance in the way that they try other people -- the way they tell


other people to live their lives while choosing to live in a


different way privately themselves. That is the issue here. No one


enjoys seeing a man brought down so publicly as the cardinal but this


was not about personal weakness but hypocrisy.


Tom, has the Church been wrong to focus so much on sexual morality as


opposed to poverty? I would generally agree with that.


The Church has rules and there are certain things it does not allow.


My concern on the sexual morality issue is that the Church teaches to


love the sinner but to reject the sin. Now, that has not been clear


in some of these pronouncements. The other dimension which is


important is that the Church, historically, has been an enormous


force for human good but none of this is coming out. In other words,


a horrible caricature or Catholicism has emerged in the


media over the last two or three weeks and that is why a again the


message coming from the Church in Scotland should from now on be


positive, faith driven and should not immediately jump into the


public domain. Journalists love the Catholic Church because they


immediately get an opinion from them. There should be much more


consideration and the statements made should be nuanced and more, of


blacks and they have been in the past. -- more complex.


Katharine, we have the election of the new Pope in the next 10 days or


so. It is almost incredible that the O'Brien revelations have come


at this time. The story has been overtaken by


events. The men at complains because it -- before the Pope


announced his resignation. I think Tom is correct that there should be


a more positive view of the Church alongside this but there will be a


more positive view when the Church start behaving in a more positive


way. The cover ups the Church have been involved in in the pass, every


time they do that, they tell the people involved that they do not


matter as much as the public face of the institution. They have to


start protecting the people. We are still awaiting a statement


from Cardinal Keith O'Brien on the allegations. Thank you both for a


much for joining me. The under-occupancy charge, or so-


called bedroom tax, will start next month. Government estimates this


week suggest over 100,000 households in Scotland will lose


out. It is a politically charged issue with many case studies


affecting vulnerable people. Laura Bicker has been looking at the


He is telling them about changes to their benefits, which will take


effect next month. Are there any specific things that you have seen


that are of concern to you? This bedroom tax, it is a nightmare. I


have got two at extra rooms. With my husband having Alzheimer's, I


need at my daughter to come, three or four days a week, to give me a


break. My proposed course of action will be to fill in an exemption


form, because you need separate rooms. She could have her housing


benefit cut by a quarter and less she gets an exemption. Craig knows


dozens of tenants just like her. But informing those in need is just


part of this battle. The Scottish government has branded the so-


called bedroomed tax unfair. But could it and should it be doing it


more? It is disappointed and that they have not raised this with the


UK Government in any detail. They need to do that urgently. Shelter


has decided upon a three-point plan to take to Holyrood. Nobody should


be made homeless because of this, anybody who ends up losing their


home will be treated as being unintentionally homeless, and that


a fund is put in place to protect social landlords from bankruptcy.


Elsewhere, in Edinburgh, one councillor has put forward a plan


to prevent those who get into debt being thrown out of their homes.


You have to pay the whole rent, including the bedroom tax element.


If you are struggling with that element, we will not affect you and


make you homeless. The council will pick up the tab for homelessness,


bed and breakfast accommodation, it does not make sense. Others would


like the Scottish government to put more money into a discretionary


fund to help those in larger houses who cannot move. We are concerned


about people looking to downsize, and we do not have the properties


to give them up. That gives a concern, because people will be


stuck in a house with too many rooms, and it will not be their


fault, and they will be penalised. We need assistance from the


Scottish government. We are not getting enough. In some areas of


England, councils have reclassified some homes, putting it in their


books as a one-bedroom as an office. We should be looking at every


option, and whether that means the classifying what a bedroom is, for


the purposes of this process, or looking at other options, to


getting housing associations to work together, to Port their


waiting lists. All of these are just ideas for now, and the clock


is ticking. Craig knows his part, and he intends to speak to every


one of his tenants, in letting them know about the changes on the way.


With me to discuss this, the Scottish government minister for


housing and welfare, Margaret Burgess, and the Conservative MP


for Penrith and the border, Rory Stewart. There is age huge


controversy about this bedroom tax, but it is coming in in four weeks.


How will we deal with it? How will the UK government help the


vulnerable people? You had an excellent report there. It has been


on the box for two years. People have been preparing. There are


different ways of dealing with different situations, you can get


exemptions, there is transition funding, councils that have houses


where some of the bedrooms are too small are reclassified. Everybody


agrees that we need to make the transition, but we need to make it


as fair and just and flexible as possible. On the face of it, this


looks like an unfair penalty for people, and things like funds being


put in place to help people out, they are not sufficient for the


long term. There has got to be a transition, because we are dealing


with a situation where housing benefit has gone from 11 billion to


�20 billion. We are in a financial hole. Something has to be done over


the medium term to get it under control. We have been working hard


to get the measures in place. It is tough, nobody likes this kind of


cutting up, but there are many people struggle end, and the


transitional arrangements are a help towards that. We have a Tory


councillor complained that he does not have enough money to sort it


out in Aberdeenshire. It is very tough. Many people in the private


rented sector are struggling to have enough room, we have people in


social housing who have two spare bedrooms, and we need to get our


housing stock more rationalised, and print the expenditure under


control. It is very tough. How can the Scottish government help


mitigate against the effects of this? The first thing, the Scottish


government do not agree with this penalty, and we are still trying to


get the UK government to abandon it. It is unfair, it is not workable,


and the impact it will have in Scotland is governed to be far


outweighing any benefit there would be. The Scottish government has


already done and a number of things to mitigate welfare reform, and in


particular the bedroom tax, we are looking at all of the options that


have been discussed by the previous people, we are looking at all of


those things, we have already talked up the Scottish Welfare Fund


to help those poorest in the society, we have given money to


advice agencies to assist people who are struggling, and we have


also given money to housing associations, to look at how they


can address the problems they are going to face. What is the point of


looking at it when it is coming in? There is a petition to make sure


that people who are not pay and will not be evicted. It is UK


legislation, not legislation from Scotland. We are looking at what


has been said, but there are difficulties in terms of the


petition, we have to address that when it comes forward. There are


loads of other issues, about how you can identify a why somebody has


rent arrears. Is it because of this, or are there other reasons? Are


there other groups of people that we should exempt from eviction


because of other circumstances, unemployment, loss of income? We


will the cap every landlord, every housing association, and I do not


think there is an appetite to evict people because of this. You are


complaining that, but when did you speak to the UK government? I wrote


to Iain Duncan Smith last week, and I wrote two weeks ago to Lord Freud,


I have spoken to the Housing Minister in December, the Deputy


First Minister has raised it in every meeting she has had with UK


politicians, and I hope to raise it again next week in London. There


seems to be a lot of meetings covering on, the Scottish


government putting their case to do, but not enough money, and north of


the border. This is not a policy about either side of the border, it


is a British policy. We are failing to see a serious strategy from the


SNP on how to deal with a massive financial problem. We are spending


�20 billion a year on housing benefit, nearly twice the figure 10


years ago, more than we spend on all of the university's and


policing in the whole country combined. We need to be serious


about the long-term public finances. It makes a lot of sense to discuss


transition, to ask for flexibility, but what does not make sense is to


hear the SNP fighting against every attempt to get the public finances


under control. How can the fight against it when you here that this


has doubled over the past 10 years, housing benefit has doubled? Will


this be abolished in an independent Scotland? It has not doubled in


Scotland over the last 10 years, the increase has been 14%. We do


not have the same problems as we do in the rest of the UK. In an


independent Scotland, we would reverse it, because it costs more


to have it going and it has to do away with it. You do not have the


money, though. We spend less of our GDP on social protection than they


do in the rest of the UK, 15%, they spend 16%. We will have the money


You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland. We are coming up to the


news. After that, we will speak to Douglas Alexander about his idea


for a national convention, getting his thoughts on the strategies at


play on the referendum debate. The latest national and


international news. See you in a moment.


Good afternoon. Further assistance for the Syrian rebels will be


announced in Parliament this week. Speaking to the BBC, William Hague


dismissed the criticism of British policy. He described President


Assad's remarks aspirational. The shelling and shooting continues


in Syria. Tearing apart a state in which 70,000 have died since the


uprising began almost two years ago. But the President has accused the


British government of trying to militarised the conflict in his


remarks to the Sunday Times today. This government is acting in a


naive, confused and unrealistic manner. William Hague described the


interview as pollution off. This is a man presiding over this slaughter,


and the message to him is that we are the people sending food and


shelter and blankets to help people driven from their homes and


families in his name. We are sending medical supplies to try to


look after people injured and abused by the soldiers working for


this man. William Hague said that, faced with the extreme humanitarian


distress of the civilians, Britain could not just sit it out. Though


Almond the rebels push back rebels is not yet British policy, he would


not rule that out in future. The Prime Minister is insisting


there will be no pledge to the right by the Conservatives


following their defeat in bit Eastleigh by-election. Writing in


the Sunday Telegraph, he said he would stick to the course that the


government is on. Following two days of negative


headlines after the Conservatives'' bruising defeat, David Cameron has


chosen to fight back. He says the battle for Britain will not be won


by lurching to the right wing it, but by appealing to the common


ground. In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, he pledges to do


that by controlling immigration... That the leader of UKIP, which came


second, forcing the Conservatives into third place, says they should


be focusing on addressing concerns now, not making pledges for beyond


the next election. Jam tomorrow, that is what we keep hearing from


them, promises of what they might do if they win the next general a


election. Meanwhile, the Justice Secretary has said he would expect


a future Conservative government to scrap the Human Rights Act. His


remarks and those of the Prime Minister will be seen as an attempt


to appease some on the backbenches who crave what they see as a more


muscular Conservative is that while broadening their appeal with voters.


That is the news for now, there will be more and BBC One at 6:35pm.


Good afternoon. A former priest who made claims


against Cardinal O'Brien has told the Observer newspaper he would


public despite being warned he could damage the Church's


reputation. He is one of four men who have accused the Cardinal of


inappropriate behaviour in the 1980s Dannatt allegations he


contests. The Cardinal was signed last week. The journalist two broke


the story told us the Catholic Church was aware of what he was


accused of because she had e-mailed And up I asked them if it was true


that the cardinal had broken his foul of celibacy. For them to claim


that they did not know what he was accused of simply is not true. It


is very disappointing that they took that line.


Limiting the amount of water available for use by whisky


distilleries could harm long-term plans, according to industry


representatives. The limit, which has been agreed in legislation


passed at the Scottish Parliament, prevents firms from taking more


than ten million litres of water each day. The Scotch Whisky


Association said not being exempt could limit its expansion.


In football there are two Scottish Cup ties later, including


Kilmarnock against Hibernian live on BBC 1 Scotland from 2:40pm.


Yesterday, Celtic beat St Mirren in their quarter-final, Anthony Stokes


heading the winner, while Falkirk are also through to the semi-finals


after overcoming Hamilton. Here is the weather now with Judith


The a outlook is brightness morning. There will be some cloud in the


north Highlands and drizzle. Temperatures 10 or 11 degrees


Celsius which is good for the time of year. It will stay dry for most


of us overnight with clear spells in the south.


Thanks, Alastair. Now, in a speech a couple of days ago, the shadow


foreign secretary Douglas Alexander tried to reclaim the idea of change


and attach its significance to a no vote. He also floated the idea of a


national convention post-2014 to focus on the type of society


Scotland could become if it remains It is almost three decades since


voters first went to the polls to decide on the future of Scotland.


It took another 20 years before Scotland achieved a parliament.


This time around, Douglas Alexander wants to quash any notion that a No


vote means nothing will change. He was to create space for what he


calls a new kind of politics, by gathering politicians and Civic


Society to discuss future priorities. It is based loosely on


the constitutional Convention which developed plans for the parliament


at Holyrood. He asks whether we could gather together a national


convention, to chart a new vision from old nation for the next


decade? Gathering 25 years on from the conclusion of the


constitutional Convention, this national convention will look


beyond an agenda of constitutional change. His call comes ahead of


Labour's devolution commission reporting its findings later this


month. It was founded last year to can't sit there the balance of


power between Westminster and Holyrood. -- consider.


And the Labour strategist and MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South,


Douglas Alexander, joins me now. Your suggestion there for a ten-


year long national convention, is it a big talking shop?


One had the paradoxical truth about Scotland at the moment is that


Scotland wants change but it does not want the change that the SNP is


offering, a separate sovereign state. We need to look belongs 2014


where I believe Scots will reject the choice of a separate sovereign


state and stay in the United Kingdom. They may need to say, what


has changed look like in terms of our economy and society. So much of


the conversation about the nation we could become has been crowded


out by an almost exclusive conversation about constitutional


change. A is this enough that people? Won a


nationalist said that you were offering shiny beads to the natives


then a serious debate. I am trying to get away from be he


said she said politics which all too often characterises this debate.


Surely any king comes together after the vote and have a


conversation about the fact there are more than 200,000 people out of


work in Scotland. How do we improve the quality of Ireland and rural


communities in Scotland? There are hail whole range of issues. I think


he could establish a different kind of dialogue, having resolved to the


constitutional issue. We could a look ahead to a richer and deeper


conversation about what kind of nation we want to be and what kind


of Scots we want to be. The devolution Commission are


looking at this. Do you think what you are offering is enough? Well


the devolution Commission put any more meat on the bones?


Scottish Labour off the devolution. We have argued for decades for a


Scottish Parliament. After the SNP won the their historic victory, I


said we should be open minded about improving the devolution settlement.


No people said this was a tactical response. It was a considered


judgment. We need to look at how to improve the constitutional


settlement. That is a different destination to what the SNP are


offering. The that speech was a considered judgement and quite a


critical judgment, you said Labour were not reconnecting and were in


opposition for its own sake. I Labour delivering now, 18 months


ahead of the referendum? Were the are making real progress.


A couple of years later -- a couple of months later we elected a new


leader. The SNP have been under some pressure that they have not


been under for some time. Our job is not just a critique of the


Scottish National Party but to create a vision of the kind of


nation we want to lead. There is a big agenda here that has been


crowded out the Scottish Labour needs to give voice to.


How can you claim new art reconnected when you are coming 4th


in by-elections? Scottish Labour did not take part


in the by-election this week. We have had some long -- some strong


local government results in by- elections. We are working hard to


come back. In terms of the vote last week, that it is not exactly a


Labour heartland. We were not in a position to contest what was are


too much and 57th target seats. We would have had so to win a match


seat if we wanted to get a majority well in excess of 300! And many of


us did not expect us to have John O'Farrell as a parliamentary


colleague this week. Why we all Labour colleagues in


skull and not coming up with his philosophical concepts like this? I


you the thinking man of Scottish Labour who has to come up from


London to make these statements? Are we are one party. We are led by


Johann Lamont. On others have a role to play. Robin Cook was a


great influence on the. Renewal of the party is a job for all of this


is something he used to say. We all need to come together, whether


representing constituents in a local council, Holyrood of


Westminster. We all have a job to Would you echoed the statements


Johann Lamont has been making about the something for nothing culture?


I fear we had an echo of that conversation in the last debate you


had, where the Scottish Parliament was supposed to ensure the politics


of responsibility. With hindsight, they could have been changes to the


tax powers at an earlier stage. Those are coming in the future.


There is a particularly depressing -- depressing strain to nationalist


thinking, saying Westminster is to blame for everything. On something


like the bedroom tax there are practical steps the Scottish


Parliament could take but it should not be seen as a campaigning


opportunity by the Scottish government but to get down to work


and see what practical changes can be made here.


We are also looking at the Human Rights Bill today. Chris Grayling


has claimed that a Scottish government would scrap the Human


Rights Act. Vince Cable said this was speculation. What would be your


reaction to that? Burst of for a future Tory


government is not the plan. David Cameron said it would be wrong


after that by-election to lurch to the right. But at the same time


Chris Grayling was briefing another newspaper about getting rid of the


Human Rights Act. The Conservatives are letting the country down and


stagnating. That is why they are doing badly in the opinion polls,


not what it is at the Sisi in Europe.


The nationalists say we're very different in Scotland and have very


different opinions on things like that proposal. You do not go along


with that. You say we are all brothers and sisters together


across the UK. I do not think it is an altar


stereotypes -- and old stereotype. To suggest that everyone south of


the border is right wing is unfair. We have a huge responsibility to


deliver to the Scottish Parliament the kind of changes we want to see.


Not just a more united and equal Scotland but a more enterprising


Scotland as well. That is what I hope the national convention will


look at. Thank you for coming to speak to us.


Well, the Spring party political conference season is fast


approaching and that is usually where significant policy


announcements are trumpeted. And with politicians and the electorate


calling for the debate to get past the process and on to the substance,


we decided to take a look at what a no vote in 2014 would mean.


Christine Macleod has been trying to find out.


On one of the Prime Minister's visit to Scotland last year, he


hinted he may be open to allowing Scotland more powers if Scots


rejected independence. But are we any clearer on what Scotland would


look like after a no vote. Scotland's -- Scottish Labour at


talking about a national convention to plan the future. They will also


reveal the findings of bed devolution Commission at their


April conference. We are looking at where power


should lie. It is about local government as well. We want to look


at the best place for up power to set. It is about where it is most


appropriately used and put into place and what they can deliver for


people in Scotland. The Scottish Conservative leader


once said she would draw a line in the sand when it came to more


powers for Scotland but recently she has suggested looking at more


powers after 2014. Her party will also be setting out its


constitutional stall for the 2014 general election ahead of the


referendum vote. We will bring in a concrete


proposals ahead of the referendum in the terms of what we expect


after the referendum. People in Scotland do want to see more


responsibility taken in Holyrood for the decisions that are made


here. That is something we have to reflect on.


Liberal Democrats support Marholm role. They would like all the


parties to come together and agreed to which powers they should have


their in the event as a No vote. -- more home rule.


It is important that when the voters go to the polls they


understand that all the political parties in Scotland want more


powers for Scotland. They expect the SNP, hopefully after they


defeated in the referendum, to join that consensus.


Once the SNP back such a plan if it lost the referendum?


The SNP has always campaigned for more powers and will always do that


until we are independent. The other parties must say what more powers


they want the Scottish Parliament to have and how they can guarantee


that those powers will be delivered by a Westminster government because


past experience says that unless the SNP and the campaign for


independence are providing a momentum, they do not deliver.


Pressure is on the Unionist parties to come up with their own


manifestos setting out their plans for Scotland's constitution. Should


they include for more powers for Scotland?


I do not think they need to panic at all. They do not need suit broke


promises of more powers at the voters. Two-thirds of voters are


quite happy. The essential question, yes or No to the union, that is the


one we need to settle in the referendum. Nothing else.


While there may at the moment be a majority in Scotland for remaining


in the union, there is also clearly a majority in favour of devolution.


-- of more devolution. There is an attempt to cement the loyalty of


existing voters by giving a clear indication of what Scotland might


be given in the way of more devolution in the wake of a No vote.


So, to introduce more powers on not to introduce more powers? The real


question is, what is the best strategy for Unionist parties if


they are to win a no votes? With me in the the studio is the


former Scottish Liberal Democrat MSP and leader of the Devo Plus


group Jeremy Purvis. You are celebrating the first


birthday of Devo Plus. You showed that this flowcharts this week


which seems to appear with everyone moving into the middle ground. The


SNP even appear to be looking from been delighted Devo Max.


Before these proposals were launched last year there was


uncertainty about whether or not the parties would move. Labour have


established their commission and the latest speech by Ruth Davidson


is very positive. They have shown movements but, one year on from the


launch, we want to offer a challenge to the parties. We


believe most people in Scotland's accept that the parties enable


women to come together. We want to understand what will happen in the


event of a No vote. We are suggesting a form of agreement, and


equivalent to the Edinburgh agreement signed between the two


governments to show that the two party leaders can show a unified


proposition of what would happen in the event of a No vote.


So that would be a funny unified opposition from the three main


opposition parties? Is that not overly optimistic?


The proposals have shown we can take forward powers. It can be done


in a stable, proper way that can strengthen the parliament and also


mean that we still gain from the United Kingdom. There is a


consensus growing there. A Glasgow agreement which showed that a


statement of intent by the parties would be addressing what many in


Scotland are wanting to know, addressing what will happen in the


event of a No vote and outlining the leadership from the parties to


show that. We did it with the establishment of the parliament in


the first place, we did it with the Calman Commission, said there is a


clear precedent. Isn't the strongest way forward,


are perhaps better, if we have three different ideologies coming


forward? Perhaps if you have won this shed strategy it is less of a


moving target for the SNP -- one shed strategy?


There was a convention between Labour and Liberal Democrats when


we had the Edinburgh agreement. The Calman Commission are clarified the


powers. It is up to the parties to use those powers and argue for the


policies in the context of more accountability. We cannot conflicts


what party policies are but people are hungry to know what the


consequences of a No vote would be. We need a Glasgow agreements, a


Statesman's intense -- a statement of intent of what would happen. The


parliament is permanent, here to stay. That starts to give up a


common ground that could be cut out. It does not stop Labour, the


Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives from saying what


their party policies are. Many people are hungry for clarity on


the constitution. If there is in no fate any do not


get this agreement, with these three disparate groups, I your


concerns that further powers for Scotland might fall down of the


Westminster agenda after the referendum?


Also Melly, what we hope is to have a natural destination to this


debate. We do not want to be perpetually talking about the


constitution. We wanted to be clear in a referendum that there will be


a yes proposition of what independence will look like and


also it will be clear what will be the consequence of the process of


the week that took place -- the process of the work there will take


place in the event of a No vote. Without that it is harder to find a


destination to this debate on devolution and I fear Scotland will


be hobbled by a perpetual debate on the constitution when there are


other areas we need to focus on. Well, it has been a busy old week


in the political arena. Let us take a look back in The Week In 60


New proposals for regulatory bodies have been announced if Scotland


becomes independent. The finance secretary says consumers will


benefit by merging many regulators into one or two bodies. The Defence


Secretary warned of further significant cuts to the armed


forces harming military capability. He suggested savings should come


from the welfare budget. A deal was struck to end the controversial


practice of throwing discarded fish back into the sea. A third European


foreign minister has said an independent Scotland would have to


apply for EU membership. That fear's the minister said Scotland


would be considered as a new country. And the Scottish Health


Secretary had to leave an operating better after feeling fate while


watching a kidney transplant operation in Edinburgh's Royal


So that was the week that was. Let I am joined by the SNP blogger Kate


Higgins, who writes under the name of BurdsEyeVoew. Alongside her,


Labour cyber commentator, the lawyer Ian Smart.


Let us look at the top stories this week. What are you make of the


statement from the former priest who said he was scared to speak


out? I think the whole thing is very


difficult now. I do not have a huge interest in the sex life of


Cardinal Keith O'Brien. To some of the detail that is coming out now


seems to be moving into the realms of the prurience, shall we say? It


is a terrible crisis for the Catholic Church but it will survive


that crisis. Kate Higgins, we are discussing the


moral authority of the church. They have been very involved in equal


marriage to date. Where does this leave their moral authority?


They will lose that authority if they continue to choose to focus


their energies and attention on sexual morality issues. The


Catholic Church has handled this pretty badly. Abuse scandals, if


you like, and allegations can go one of two ways. We can try and to


shut it down and put it back in the cupboards and hope it does not come


out again or you can take an Open and as transparent approach and


that is what the Church needs to do. It needs to acknowledge things may


not have been right in the past and give the opportunity to other


victims to come forward. Let us turn to the bedroom tax. An


interesting comment from you this week, hitting out at all the main


parties. Whenever the reasons we campaign


for a Scottish Parliament was of that it would protect Scotland's in


the eventuality of a Tory government in Westminster. They


have the power to undermine this bedroom tax. We need money made


available to the people who will lose their housing benefit. The


Scottish Parliament could do that and are choosing not to. It is a


cause of a lack of political well, not caused by a lack of power.


What is your view on that? I Commons Road this morning to


carry forward that argument. I agree it is a lack of political


will -- political will. This should have been sorted out last year to


get is pushed out of the Welfare Reform Bill. Councils in the last


two months, led by Labour and the SNP, have increased rent by huge


margins and pushed further hardship on to tenants when they had the


opportunity to freeze rents and enable people to afford what will


come down the line in bedroom tax. We actually just need the parties


to use the powers they have ants to work creatively and unite on this.


We cannot have this as a party political issue. It is to be as


If you look at what Douglas Alexander said, he talks about


powers for the Scottish Parliament, but he is also talking about what


kind of Scotland we want. We seem to have gone through the whole


period of devolution, first, the Labour administration wanted to do


as little as possible different. Then, and SNP administration


obsessed with, we want a fully independent Scotland. Nobody has


said, these are the powers of the Scottish Parliament, these are the


problems, these are how we applied these powers to these problems.


Sunday Herald had alienation, Nicola Sturgeon speaking about how


the UK government is changing how things are done south of the border.


Douglas Alexander's speech was fantastic, with huge quotable


chunks. I disagreed with three- quarters of it, but it was great.


Two things of note, it sets out a blueprint for the Labour Party if


they choose to follow, if they want to have a chance of winning at the


2016 elections, but what is eliminating it is the non-committal


approach and response from them to date. But there is a lot of


presumption that Scotland will not move towards a yes vote in 2000 of


14, and it is just for the Unionist parties to carp at the future and


to start that process now. From his speech about the change in Scotland,


what was remarkable to me was how similar he and Nicola Sturgeon


sound. If we can find a way forward, there is hope. But I agree, it is


reassuring to hear parties to the starting to think about how they


want to create Scotland in the future.


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.

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