03/03/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


03/03/2013

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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday politics. The Prime Minister

:00:43.:00:49.

has returned to fight back after the disappointment at the Eastleigh

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by-election. How is it going down with his fellow ministers? We will

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ask business secretary Vince Cable whether the government can carry on

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cutting and stimulate growth. He is our Sunday interview.

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This is deep Celtic diet. And are the plans of Michael Gove

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for teaching history a horror bought bought just what the doctor

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ordered it? We will have a debate on the plans.

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And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: we will be asking, has

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the Scottish Catholic Church lost its moral authority after the

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:01:41.:01:45.

events of the past week involving All that and a political Dannatt

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offering more fun and excitement then you will find this side of a

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:01:59.:01:59.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1969 seconds

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post by-election pub crawl around The new curriculum assessed that

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children at I have to learn the unique evil of the Holocaust. There

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are several problems with that. First it is a moral lot ahistorical

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approach. Secondly the uniqueness The that is exactly what is going

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on now. I have never heard 88 about the Holocaust in a school. It is

:35:15.:35:23.

taught as a moral issue. We are green on this.

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How can you understand a Holocaust without understanding something

:35:27.:35:31.

about anti-Semitism or understanding Germany? Germany does

:35:31.:35:36.

not appear in this curriculum at all.

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I'll take you at your word. You say you dislike myths and hero worship.

:35:43.:35:52.

Why is Mary C Cole there? Have you looked at the text on her. She is

:35:52.:35:59.

designs to be the antecedent. Did you hear about by an hour but going

:35:59.:36:04.

on about blond-haired blue-eyed nurses in the NHS. We want good

:36:04.:36:10.

Jamaican nurses. She is being invented as the heroine and patron

:36:10.:36:19.

of those nurses. This is dominated by current political concerns.

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There I am in agreement with you. People need to be taught to look at

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someone like her and asked some difficult and awkward questions.

:36:28.:36:33.

The new curriculum does not combine historical skills on one hand with

:36:33.:36:39.

the fact. It just has the facts. So are we now agreeing that the

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current curriculum has fundamental problems. They give need. I have

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never seen any evidence in the teaching materials then there is

:36:48.:36:53.

any debate on this at all. A you get the final word as he gets

:36:53.:36:59.

it a lot. The current curriculum does the

:36:59.:37:03.

narrative of the British history from the age of 11 to the age of 14.

:37:03.:37:11.

There is another bunch of problems about post 14 education. The

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curriculum is centred on a narrative of British history with

:37:15.:37:22.

some wild and the European history. The current one is missing that. --

:37:22.:37:29.

song world and European history. A one final point. It really is

:37:29.:37:33.

wrong. The campaign for the retention of Mary C Cole in the

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current curriculum was headed by a list of signatories. It is

:37:40.:37:43.

politically and left wing at skewed. It is a product of the last

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government and needs demolishing now.

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We will see how many of our viewers have never heard of her as well.

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You both get 100 lines for overrunning. It is approaching

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11:40am. You are watching Sunday Good morning and welcome to Sunday

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Politics Scotland. Coming up: One of the priests who

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complained about Cardinal O'Brien's behaviour claims he feared the

:38:11.:38:15.

Vatican would crush him if they could. A church crisis of historic

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proportions which shows no sign of abating. Brace yourself.

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The under occupancy benefit cut will start next month. Is everyone

:38:21.:38:29.

ready for the introduction of this welfare reform? Canny Scottish

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government help those affected? -- can be Scottish Government.

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And what does a no vote in 2014 mean? What are you being offered at

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the moment? What would a Scotland that stays within the UK look like?

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Speaking truth to power. A key figure behind the allegations

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against Cardinal Keith O'Brien says he may need counselling after a

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traumatic week. The former priest says he fears the Vatican would

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crush him if they could. He and three other men complained about

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inappropriate behaviour. Keith O'Brien contests the allegations.

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The fall-out from last weekend's allegations surrounding Cardinal

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Keith O'Brien show little sign of dying down. The story once again

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dominates this morning's paper. The Observer, which broke the story

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last week, gives more details about why the former priest made the

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allegations of public. He says he was a seminarian when the priest

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acted inappropriately towards him. He and three others reported the

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incidents dating back to the 1980s to the Vatican in February. The

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priest told the newspaper that since going public he has

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experienced the cold disapproval of the Church hierarchy for breaking

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ranks. He describes the trauma of speaking true to power. He said he

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thought it best that churchgoers knew what had been going on. He

:40:07.:40:16.
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According to the paper, the former cleric said he feared the matter

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might be swept under the carpet. He added that when they came forward

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they will warns that were the allegations known they could cause

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immense damage to the church. Cardinal Keith O'Brien says the

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contests all allegations made against him and is seeking legal

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advice. Despite that he resigned as Archbishop on Monday last week. He

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was the most senior Roman Catholic cleric in Britain. He was due to

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retire later this month when he turned 75. He will not take part in

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the conclave to elect the new Pope. The Vatican is investigating the

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allegations against him. There has been no response from the

:41:03.:41:06.

Scottish Catholic Church this morning. For more analysis, we can

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now talk to the journalist Catherine Deveney, who broke the

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story in the Observer last week. She is in our Inverness studio. And

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here with me, the leading Scottish historian from Edinburgh University,

:41:15.:41:25.
:41:25.:41:28.

Bersted Catherine, this man sounds like he has been under immense

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pressure. -- first to Catherine. I think he has been from the media

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and people who want to out him. There is a real danger when we call

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for people to be named but we assume that people who have

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experienced dramatic at bents are somehow public property. --

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traumatic events. It is worth noting that these people are not

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anonymous. They have given a signed and sworn statements to the Vatican,

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exactly as they were asked to do by the church. It was only the

:42:04.:42:08.

reaction of the Church to those complaints that made them fear they

:42:08.:42:12.

would not be dealt with properly and it was at that point that they

:42:12.:42:18.

went public. They are telling a story that is in the public

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interest. That does not mean to say they lose all their rights as

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individuals. Tom, initially you were calling for

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the men to come forward and make themselves known. Hearing what we

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have heard there, is it best that they stick in the sidelines?

:42:36.:42:42.

The thing has moved on rapidly now. My initial reaction was based on

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the day the news came out. I can quite understand the point that

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Catherine has made. I think that is water under the bridge now. The

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process in Rome, which seems to have been activated very speedily

:43:00.:43:07.

indeed, ought to be allowed to take its course. My concern, obviously,

:43:07.:43:11.

is deep concern for they individuals involved and that

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includes the cardinal. That is the issue of natural justice and that

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these allegations were anonymous. These are issues in the past. We

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need to move forward. There is a conclave about to start so these

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things will not happen quickly. Eventually an appropriate judgment

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must come from the Vatican. You are right to point out that the

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Cardinal does contest these allegations. Catherine, how do you

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think the Scottish Catholic Church has handled the allegations?

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I have been very disappointed by the way they have handled the

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allegations. They say they do not know the specifics of the

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allegations and that is simply not true. I was asked to the day before

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the story broke in the Observer to put the allegations in writing to

:44:04.:44:10.

the Catholic Church. I did so. They had many specific allegations from

:44:10.:44:14.

the four individuals concerned but, more than that, my e-mail ended

:44:14.:44:21.

with a direct question. I said, is its truth that the Cardinal has

:44:21.:44:26.

broken his vow of celibacy? You could not get a more specific

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allegation of anything than that. For the Church to say they did not

:44:31.:44:35.

know what he was being accused of were simply not true. It is very

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disappointing that they took that line.

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Now let us pick up on that point. I think we're talking here not

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about the Church but about the media operation of the church. The

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Catholic Media Office often speaks out very quickly and often without

:44:55.:45:00.

a degree of cautious restraint. But it has been virtually silent on

:45:00.:45:06.

this issue. There has been an almost media hire a toss.

:45:06.:45:13.

We have tried to contact the Catholic Media Office today. Where

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does this leave the moral authority of the Catholic Church in Scotland?

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Before the ordinary Catholic in the pew, this has been devastating and

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a shop but in the long run what is important to people is that actual

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fate. The number of mass attenders will not go down because of this

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but the public reputation of the Church has been affected. This is

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why the process has to happen speedily and effectively so that

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eventually it will come into the public and the main exactly what

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has happened. -- the public domain. The Church has got to be seen to be

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doing this effectively and thoroughly and not in any way

:46:01.:46:08.

obfuscating. Or, as has been stated by Catherine, misleading the media.

:46:08.:46:12.

This has been the biggest crisis for the Catholic Church since the

:46:12.:46:17.

Reformation? So as the prominent Catholics on

:46:17.:46:22.

Newsnight rejected this view. The Catholic Church has been through

:46:22.:46:26.

major tribulations since the Reformation in Scotland but this

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has been an internal scandal. This has happened because of

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developments within the church, or lead to difficulties within the

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Church. All the other things that happens to the Roman Catholic faith

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since the Reformation have been because of external forces. This is

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why this problem has gone global. Every major newspaper in the world

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has a story on this. It has put Scotland on the front pages of the

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world's media. Katharine, Scotland at the

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forefront of this debacle. The Catholic Church has emerged from

:47:04.:47:08.

the sidelines recently and become quite active politically, taking

:47:08.:47:12.

part in discussions on equal marriage and so on. One may still

:47:12.:47:18.

be able to do that now? A lot of rehabilitation has to go

:47:18.:47:23.

on for the Catholic Church. If you have a voice in society you have to

:47:23.:47:27.

earn that voice and have moral authority. The church is excellent

:47:27.:47:32.

where it speaks out on matters of justice and peace and for the poor

:47:32.:47:38.

and oppressed but unfortunately the territory the Church has chosen to

:47:38.:47:42.

inhabit publicly are all matters of sexual morality and we have seen

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that it is in sexual morality that the Church should not be speaking

:47:47.:47:51.

publicly. I would like to see them have more humility and less

:47:51.:47:55.

arrogance in the way that they try other people -- the way they tell

:47:55.:48:00.

other people to live their lives while choosing to live in a

:48:00.:48:05.

different way privately themselves. That is the issue here. No one

:48:05.:48:09.

enjoys seeing a man brought down so publicly as the cardinal but this

:48:09.:48:13.

was not about personal weakness but hypocrisy.

:48:13.:48:19.

Tom, has the Church been wrong to focus so much on sexual morality as

:48:19.:48:24.

opposed to poverty? I would generally agree with that.

:48:24.:48:28.

The Church has rules and there are certain things it does not allow.

:48:28.:48:35.

My concern on the sexual morality issue is that the Church teaches to

:48:35.:48:41.

love the sinner but to reject the sin. Now, that has not been clear

:48:41.:48:46.

in some of these pronouncements. The other dimension which is

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important is that the Church, historically, has been an enormous

:48:49.:48:54.

force for human good but none of this is coming out. In other words,

:48:54.:48:58.

a horrible caricature or Catholicism has emerged in the

:48:58.:49:02.

media over the last two or three weeks and that is why a again the

:49:02.:49:07.

message coming from the Church in Scotland should from now on be

:49:07.:49:12.

positive, faith driven and should not immediately jump into the

:49:12.:49:16.

public domain. Journalists love the Catholic Church because they

:49:16.:49:21.

immediately get an opinion from them. There should be much more

:49:21.:49:25.

consideration and the statements made should be nuanced and more, of

:49:25.:49:31.

blacks and they have been in the past. -- more complex.

:49:32.:49:37.

Katharine, we have the election of the new Pope in the next 10 days or

:49:37.:49:42.

so. It is almost incredible that the O'Brien revelations have come

:49:43.:49:48.

at this time. The story has been overtaken by

:49:48.:49:53.

events. The men at complains because it -- before the Pope

:49:53.:50:00.

announced his resignation. I think Tom is correct that there should be

:50:00.:50:03.

a more positive view of the Church alongside this but there will be a

:50:03.:50:09.

more positive view when the Church start behaving in a more positive

:50:09.:50:14.

way. The cover ups the Church have been involved in in the pass, every

:50:14.:50:19.

time they do that, they tell the people involved that they do not

:50:19.:50:23.

matter as much as the public face of the institution. They have to

:50:23.:50:29.

start protecting the people. We are still awaiting a statement

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from Cardinal Keith O'Brien on the allegations. Thank you both for a

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much for joining me. The under-occupancy charge, or so-

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called bedroom tax, will start next month. Government estimates this

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week suggest over 100,000 households in Scotland will lose

:50:41.:50:43.

out. It is a politically charged issue with many case studies

:50:43.:50:46.

affecting vulnerable people. Laura Bicker has been looking at the

:50:46.:50:56.
:50:56.:51:05.

He is telling them about changes to their benefits, which will take

:51:05.:51:10.

effect next month. Are there any specific things that you have seen

:51:10.:51:18.

that are of concern to you? This bedroom tax, it is a nightmare. I

:51:19.:51:27.

have got two at extra rooms. With my husband having Alzheimer's, I

:51:27.:51:36.

need at my daughter to come, three or four days a week, to give me a

:51:36.:51:42.

break. My proposed course of action will be to fill in an exemption

:51:42.:51:48.

form, because you need separate rooms. She could have her housing

:51:48.:51:53.

benefit cut by a quarter and less she gets an exemption. Craig knows

:51:53.:51:58.

dozens of tenants just like her. But informing those in need is just

:51:58.:52:03.

part of this battle. The Scottish government has branded the so-

:52:03.:52:08.

called bedroomed tax unfair. But could it and should it be doing it

:52:08.:52:15.

more? It is disappointed and that they have not raised this with the

:52:15.:52:19.

UK Government in any detail. They need to do that urgently. Shelter

:52:19.:52:24.

has decided upon a three-point plan to take to Holyrood. Nobody should

:52:24.:52:30.

be made homeless because of this, anybody who ends up losing their

:52:30.:52:36.

home will be treated as being unintentionally homeless, and that

:52:36.:52:43.

a fund is put in place to protect social landlords from bankruptcy.

:52:43.:52:47.

Elsewhere, in Edinburgh, one councillor has put forward a plan

:52:47.:52:51.

to prevent those who get into debt being thrown out of their homes.

:52:51.:52:56.

You have to pay the whole rent, including the bedroom tax element.

:52:56.:53:00.

If you are struggling with that element, we will not affect you and

:53:00.:53:05.

make you homeless. The council will pick up the tab for homelessness,

:53:05.:53:09.

bed and breakfast accommodation, it does not make sense. Others would

:53:10.:53:13.

like the Scottish government to put more money into a discretionary

:53:13.:53:18.

fund to help those in larger houses who cannot move. We are concerned

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about people looking to downsize, and we do not have the properties

:53:23.:53:28.

to give them up. That gives a concern, because people will be

:53:28.:53:32.

stuck in a house with too many rooms, and it will not be their

:53:32.:53:36.

fault, and they will be penalised. We need assistance from the

:53:36.:53:45.

Scottish government. We are not getting enough. In some areas of

:53:45.:53:51.

England, councils have reclassified some homes, putting it in their

:53:51.:53:56.

books as a one-bedroom as an office. We should be looking at every

:53:56.:54:00.

option, and whether that means the classifying what a bedroom is, for

:54:00.:54:05.

the purposes of this process, or looking at other options, to

:54:05.:54:10.

getting housing associations to work together, to Port their

:54:10.:54:16.

waiting lists. All of these are just ideas for now, and the clock

:54:16.:54:21.

is ticking. Craig knows his part, and he intends to speak to every

:54:21.:54:26.

one of his tenants, in letting them know about the changes on the way.

:54:26.:54:31.

With me to discuss this, the Scottish government minister for

:54:31.:54:37.

housing and welfare, Margaret Burgess, and the Conservative MP

:54:37.:54:46.

for Penrith and the border, Rory Stewart. There is age huge

:54:46.:54:51.

controversy about this bedroom tax, but it is coming in in four weeks.

:54:51.:54:56.

How will we deal with it? How will the UK government help the

:54:56.:55:02.

vulnerable people? You had an excellent report there. It has been

:55:02.:55:06.

on the box for two years. People have been preparing. There are

:55:06.:55:11.

different ways of dealing with different situations, you can get

:55:11.:55:15.

exemptions, there is transition funding, councils that have houses

:55:15.:55:19.

where some of the bedrooms are too small are reclassified. Everybody

:55:19.:55:24.

agrees that we need to make the transition, but we need to make it

:55:24.:55:30.

as fair and just and flexible as possible. On the face of it, this

:55:30.:55:35.

looks like an unfair penalty for people, and things like funds being

:55:35.:55:40.

put in place to help people out, they are not sufficient for the

:55:40.:55:44.

long term. There has got to be a transition, because we are dealing

:55:44.:55:49.

with a situation where housing benefit has gone from 11 billion to

:55:49.:55:54.

�20 billion. We are in a financial hole. Something has to be done over

:55:54.:55:58.

the medium term to get it under control. We have been working hard

:55:58.:56:04.

to get the measures in place. It is tough, nobody likes this kind of

:56:04.:56:08.

cutting up, but there are many people struggle end, and the

:56:08.:56:16.

transitional arrangements are a help towards that. We have a Tory

:56:16.:56:19.

councillor complained that he does not have enough money to sort it

:56:19.:56:26.

out in Aberdeenshire. It is very tough. Many people in the private

:56:26.:56:31.

rented sector are struggling to have enough room, we have people in

:56:31.:56:36.

social housing who have two spare bedrooms, and we need to get our

:56:36.:56:40.

housing stock more rationalised, and print the expenditure under

:56:40.:56:46.

control. It is very tough. How can the Scottish government help

:56:46.:56:52.

mitigate against the effects of this? The first thing, the Scottish

:56:52.:56:56.

government do not agree with this penalty, and we are still trying to

:56:56.:57:02.

get the UK government to abandon it. It is unfair, it is not workable,

:57:02.:57:07.

and the impact it will have in Scotland is governed to be far

:57:07.:57:13.

outweighing any benefit there would be. The Scottish government has

:57:13.:57:18.

already done and a number of things to mitigate welfare reform, and in

:57:18.:57:21.

particular the bedroom tax, we are looking at all of the options that

:57:21.:57:27.

have been discussed by the previous people, we are looking at all of

:57:27.:57:31.

those things, we have already talked up the Scottish Welfare Fund

:57:31.:57:36.

to help those poorest in the society, we have given money to

:57:36.:57:42.

advice agencies to assist people who are struggling, and we have

:57:42.:57:45.

also given money to housing associations, to look at how they

:57:45.:57:50.

can address the problems they are going to face. What is the point of

:57:50.:57:55.

looking at it when it is coming in? There is a petition to make sure

:57:55.:58:04.

that people who are not pay and will not be evicted. It is UK

:58:04.:58:07.

legislation, not legislation from Scotland. We are looking at what

:58:07.:58:11.

has been said, but there are difficulties in terms of the

:58:11.:58:15.

petition, we have to address that when it comes forward. There are

:58:15.:58:21.

loads of other issues, about how you can identify a why somebody has

:58:21.:58:26.

rent arrears. Is it because of this, or are there other reasons? Are

:58:27.:58:31.

there other groups of people that we should exempt from eviction

:58:31.:58:35.

because of other circumstances, unemployment, loss of income? We

:58:35.:58:42.

will the cap every landlord, every housing association, and I do not

:58:42.:58:46.

think there is an appetite to evict people because of this. You are

:58:46.:58:52.

complaining that, but when did you speak to the UK government? I wrote

:58:52.:58:56.

to Iain Duncan Smith last week, and I wrote two weeks ago to Lord Freud,

:58:56.:59:01.

I have spoken to the Housing Minister in December, the Deputy

:59:01.:59:05.

First Minister has raised it in every meeting she has had with UK

:59:05.:59:09.

politicians, and I hope to raise it again next week in London. There

:59:09.:59:13.

seems to be a lot of meetings covering on, the Scottish

:59:13.:59:16.

government putting their case to do, but not enough money, and north of

:59:16.:59:24.

the border. This is not a policy about either side of the border, it

:59:24.:59:30.

is a British policy. We are failing to see a serious strategy from the

:59:30.:59:35.

SNP on how to deal with a massive financial problem. We are spending

:59:35.:59:39.

�20 billion a year on housing benefit, nearly twice the figure 10

:59:39.:59:45.

years ago, more than we spend on all of the university's and

:59:45.:59:48.

policing in the whole country combined. We need to be serious

:59:48.:59:53.

about the long-term public finances. It makes a lot of sense to discuss

:59:53.:59:57.

transition, to ask for flexibility, but what does not make sense is to

:59:57.:00:02.

hear the SNP fighting against every attempt to get the public finances

:00:02.:00:08.

under control. How can the fight against it when you here that this

:00:08.:00:16.

has doubled over the past 10 years, housing benefit has doubled? Will

:00:16.:00:21.

this be abolished in an independent Scotland? It has not doubled in

:00:21.:00:26.

Scotland over the last 10 years, the increase has been 14%. We do

:00:26.:00:31.

not have the same problems as we do in the rest of the UK. In an

:00:31.:00:34.

independent Scotland, we would reverse it, because it costs more

:00:34.:00:38.

to have it going and it has to do away with it. You do not have the

:00:38.:00:44.

money, though. We spend less of our GDP on social protection than they

:00:44.:00:50.

do in the rest of the UK, 15%, they spend 16%. We will have the money

:00:50.:01:00.
:01:00.:01:04.

You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland. We are coming up to the

:01:04.:01:09.

news. After that, we will speak to Douglas Alexander about his idea

:01:09.:01:12.

for a national convention, getting his thoughts on the strategies at

:01:13.:01:17.

play on the referendum debate. The latest national and

:01:17.:01:20.

international news. See you in a moment.

:01:20.:01:25.

Good afternoon. Further assistance for the Syrian rebels will be

:01:25.:01:31.

announced in Parliament this week. Speaking to the BBC, William Hague

:01:31.:01:35.

dismissed the criticism of British policy. He described President

:01:35.:01:42.

Assad's remarks aspirational. The shelling and shooting continues

:01:42.:01:49.

in Syria. Tearing apart a state in which 70,000 have died since the

:01:49.:01:56.

uprising began almost two years ago. But the President has accused the

:01:56.:02:00.

British government of trying to militarised the conflict in his

:02:00.:02:06.

remarks to the Sunday Times today. This government is acting in a

:02:06.:02:10.

naive, confused and unrealistic manner. William Hague described the

:02:10.:02:15.

interview as pollution off. This is a man presiding over this slaughter,

:02:15.:02:20.

and the message to him is that we are the people sending food and

:02:20.:02:24.

shelter and blankets to help people driven from their homes and

:02:24.:02:28.

families in his name. We are sending medical supplies to try to

:02:28.:02:32.

look after people injured and abused by the soldiers working for

:02:32.:02:39.

this man. William Hague said that, faced with the extreme humanitarian

:02:39.:02:44.

distress of the civilians, Britain could not just sit it out. Though

:02:44.:02:48.

Almond the rebels push back rebels is not yet British policy, he would

:02:48.:02:53.

not rule that out in future. The Prime Minister is insisting

:02:53.:02:56.

there will be no pledge to the right by the Conservatives

:02:56.:03:00.

following their defeat in bit Eastleigh by-election. Writing in

:03:00.:03:03.

the Sunday Telegraph, he said he would stick to the course that the

:03:03.:03:12.

government is on. Following two days of negative

:03:12.:03:15.

headlines after the Conservatives'' bruising defeat, David Cameron has

:03:15.:03:19.

chosen to fight back. He says the battle for Britain will not be won

:03:20.:03:23.

by lurching to the right wing it, but by appealing to the common

:03:23.:03:28.

ground. In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, he pledges to do

:03:28.:03:37.

that by controlling immigration... That the leader of UKIP, which came

:03:37.:03:41.

second, forcing the Conservatives into third place, says they should

:03:41.:03:45.

be focusing on addressing concerns now, not making pledges for beyond

:03:45.:03:51.

the next election. Jam tomorrow, that is what we keep hearing from

:03:51.:03:56.

them, promises of what they might do if they win the next general a

:03:56.:04:01.

election. Meanwhile, the Justice Secretary has said he would expect

:04:01.:04:05.

a future Conservative government to scrap the Human Rights Act. His

:04:05.:04:08.

remarks and those of the Prime Minister will be seen as an attempt

:04:08.:04:13.

to appease some on the backbenches who crave what they see as a more

:04:13.:04:19.

muscular Conservative is that while broadening their appeal with voters.

:04:19.:04:29.
:04:29.:04:29.

That is the news for now, there will be more and BBC One at 6:35pm.

:04:29.:04:33.

Good afternoon. A former priest who made claims

:04:33.:04:37.

against Cardinal O'Brien has told the Observer newspaper he would

:04:37.:04:41.

public despite being warned he could damage the Church's

:04:41.:04:46.

reputation. He is one of four men who have accused the Cardinal of

:04:46.:04:49.

inappropriate behaviour in the 1980s Dannatt allegations he

:04:49.:04:55.

contests. The Cardinal was signed last week. The journalist two broke

:04:55.:04:58.

the story told us the Catholic Church was aware of what he was

:04:58.:05:08.
:05:08.:05:16.

accused of because she had e-mailed And up I asked them if it was true

:05:16.:05:22.

that the cardinal had broken his foul of celibacy. For them to claim

:05:22.:05:26.

that they did not know what he was accused of simply is not true. It

:05:27.:05:30.

is very disappointing that they took that line.

:05:30.:05:33.

Limiting the amount of water available for use by whisky

:05:33.:05:35.

distilleries could harm long-term plans, according to industry

:05:35.:05:38.

representatives. The limit, which has been agreed in legislation

:05:38.:05:40.

passed at the Scottish Parliament, prevents firms from taking more

:05:40.:05:43.

than ten million litres of water each day. The Scotch Whisky

:05:43.:05:46.

Association said not being exempt could limit its expansion.

:05:46.:05:48.

In football there are two Scottish Cup ties later, including

:05:48.:05:54.

Kilmarnock against Hibernian live on BBC 1 Scotland from 2:40pm.

:05:54.:05:56.

Yesterday, Celtic beat St Mirren in their quarter-final, Anthony Stokes

:05:56.:05:59.

heading the winner, while Falkirk are also through to the semi-finals

:05:59.:06:01.

after overcoming Hamilton. Here is the weather now with Judith

:06:01.:06:11.
:06:11.:06:32.

The a outlook is brightness morning. There will be some cloud in the

:06:32.:06:34.

north Highlands and drizzle. Temperatures 10 or 11 degrees

:06:34.:06:39.

Celsius which is good for the time of year. It will stay dry for most

:06:39.:06:43.

of us overnight with clear spells in the south.

:06:43.:06:53.
:06:53.:06:55.

Thanks, Alastair. Now, in a speech a couple of days ago, the shadow

:06:55.:06:58.

foreign secretary Douglas Alexander tried to reclaim the idea of change

:06:58.:07:02.

and attach its significance to a no vote. He also floated the idea of a

:07:02.:07:04.

national convention post-2014 to focus on the type of society

:07:04.:07:14.
:07:14.:07:16.

Scotland could become if it remains It is almost three decades since

:07:16.:07:22.

voters first went to the polls to decide on the future of Scotland.

:07:22.:07:27.

It took another 20 years before Scotland achieved a parliament.

:07:27.:07:32.

This time around, Douglas Alexander wants to quash any notion that a No

:07:32.:07:36.

vote means nothing will change. He was to create space for what he

:07:36.:07:42.

calls a new kind of politics, by gathering politicians and Civic

:07:42.:07:48.

Society to discuss future priorities. It is based loosely on

:07:48.:07:52.

the constitutional Convention which developed plans for the parliament

:07:52.:07:57.

at Holyrood. He asks whether we could gather together a national

:07:57.:08:01.

convention, to chart a new vision from old nation for the next

:08:01.:08:06.

decade? Gathering 25 years on from the conclusion of the

:08:06.:08:10.

constitutional Convention, this national convention will look

:08:10.:08:15.

beyond an agenda of constitutional change. His call comes ahead of

:08:15.:08:19.

Labour's devolution commission reporting its findings later this

:08:19.:08:24.

month. It was founded last year to can't sit there the balance of

:08:24.:08:29.

power between Westminster and Holyrood. -- consider.

:08:29.:08:32.

And the Labour strategist and MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South,

:08:32.:08:41.

Douglas Alexander, joins me now. Your suggestion there for a ten-

:08:41.:08:48.

year long national convention, is it a big talking shop?

:08:48.:08:52.

One had the paradoxical truth about Scotland at the moment is that

:08:52.:08:56.

Scotland wants change but it does not want the change that the SNP is

:08:56.:09:02.

offering, a separate sovereign state. We need to look belongs 2014

:09:02.:09:08.

where I believe Scots will reject the choice of a separate sovereign

:09:08.:09:12.

state and stay in the United Kingdom. They may need to say, what

:09:12.:09:17.

has changed look like in terms of our economy and society. So much of

:09:18.:09:22.

the conversation about the nation we could become has been crowded

:09:22.:09:26.

out by an almost exclusive conversation about constitutional

:09:26.:09:31.

change. A is this enough that people? Won a

:09:31.:09:37.

nationalist said that you were offering shiny beads to the natives

:09:37.:09:43.

then a serious debate. I am trying to get away from be he

:09:43.:09:49.

said she said politics which all too often characterises this debate.

:09:49.:09:52.

Surely any king comes together after the vote and have a

:09:52.:09:56.

conversation about the fact there are more than 200,000 people out of

:09:56.:10:02.

work in Scotland. How do we improve the quality of Ireland and rural

:10:02.:10:09.

communities in Scotland? There are hail whole range of issues. I think

:10:09.:10:14.

he could establish a different kind of dialogue, having resolved to the

:10:14.:10:18.

constitutional issue. We could a look ahead to a richer and deeper

:10:18.:10:22.

conversation about what kind of nation we want to be and what kind

:10:22.:10:26.

of Scots we want to be. The devolution Commission are

:10:26.:10:32.

looking at this. Do you think what you are offering is enough? Well

:10:32.:10:38.

the devolution Commission put any more meat on the bones?

:10:38.:10:44.

Scottish Labour off the devolution. We have argued for decades for a

:10:44.:10:48.

Scottish Parliament. After the SNP won the their historic victory, I

:10:48.:10:54.

said we should be open minded about improving the devolution settlement.

:10:54.:11:00.

No people said this was a tactical response. It was a considered

:11:00.:11:06.

judgment. We need to look at how to improve the constitutional

:11:06.:11:11.

settlement. That is a different destination to what the SNP are

:11:11.:11:17.

offering. The that speech was a considered judgement and quite a

:11:17.:11:22.

critical judgment, you said Labour were not reconnecting and were in

:11:22.:11:27.

opposition for its own sake. I Labour delivering now, 18 months

:11:27.:11:31.

ahead of the referendum? Were the are making real progress.

:11:31.:11:38.

A couple of years later -- a couple of months later we elected a new

:11:38.:11:42.

leader. The SNP have been under some pressure that they have not

:11:42.:11:47.

been under for some time. Our job is not just a critique of the

:11:47.:11:50.

Scottish National Party but to create a vision of the kind of

:11:50.:11:56.

nation we want to lead. There is a big agenda here that has been

:11:56.:12:01.

crowded out the Scottish Labour needs to give voice to.

:12:01.:12:06.

How can you claim new art reconnected when you are coming 4th

:12:06.:12:10.

in by-elections? Scottish Labour did not take part

:12:10.:12:17.

in the by-election this week. We have had some long -- some strong

:12:17.:12:21.

local government results in by- elections. We are working hard to

:12:21.:12:27.

come back. In terms of the vote last week, that it is not exactly a

:12:27.:12:33.

Labour heartland. We were not in a position to contest what was are

:12:33.:12:41.

too much and 57th target seats. We would have had so to win a match

:12:41.:12:48.

seat if we wanted to get a majority well in excess of 300! And many of

:12:48.:12:52.

us did not expect us to have John O'Farrell as a parliamentary

:12:52.:12:57.

colleague this week. Why we all Labour colleagues in

:12:57.:13:01.

skull and not coming up with his philosophical concepts like this? I

:13:01.:13:06.

you the thinking man of Scottish Labour who has to come up from

:13:06.:13:12.

London to make these statements? Are we are one party. We are led by

:13:12.:13:20.

Johann Lamont. On others have a role to play. Robin Cook was a

:13:20.:13:25.

great influence on the. Renewal of the party is a job for all of this

:13:25.:13:30.

is something he used to say. We all need to come together, whether

:13:30.:13:33.

representing constituents in a local council, Holyrood of

:13:33.:13:40.

Westminster. We all have a job to Would you echoed the statements

:13:40.:13:46.

Johann Lamont has been making about the something for nothing culture?

:13:46.:13:50.

I fear we had an echo of that conversation in the last debate you

:13:50.:13:55.

had, where the Scottish Parliament was supposed to ensure the politics

:13:55.:14:00.

of responsibility. With hindsight, they could have been changes to the

:14:00.:14:06.

tax powers at an earlier stage. Those are coming in the future.

:14:06.:14:11.

There is a particularly depressing -- depressing strain to nationalist

:14:11.:14:16.

thinking, saying Westminster is to blame for everything. On something

:14:16.:14:20.

like the bedroom tax there are practical steps the Scottish

:14:20.:14:24.

Parliament could take but it should not be seen as a campaigning

:14:24.:14:27.

opportunity by the Scottish government but to get down to work

:14:27.:14:32.

and see what practical changes can be made here.

:14:32.:14:39.

We are also looking at the Human Rights Bill today. Chris Grayling

:14:39.:14:42.

has claimed that a Scottish government would scrap the Human

:14:42.:14:49.

Rights Act. Vince Cable said this was speculation. What would be your

:14:49.:14:52.

reaction to that? Burst of for a future Tory

:14:52.:14:57.

government is not the plan. David Cameron said it would be wrong

:14:57.:15:02.

after that by-election to lurch to the right. But at the same time

:15:02.:15:08.

Chris Grayling was briefing another newspaper about getting rid of the

:15:08.:15:12.

Human Rights Act. The Conservatives are letting the country down and

:15:12.:15:17.

stagnating. That is why they are doing badly in the opinion polls,

:15:17.:15:24.

not what it is at the Sisi in Europe.

:15:24.:15:27.

The nationalists say we're very different in Scotland and have very

:15:27.:15:33.

different opinions on things like that proposal. You do not go along

:15:33.:15:36.

with that. You say we are all brothers and sisters together

:15:36.:15:42.

across the UK. I do not think it is an altar

:15:42.:15:50.

stereotypes -- and old stereotype. To suggest that everyone south of

:15:50.:15:58.

the border is right wing is unfair. We have a huge responsibility to

:15:58.:16:02.

deliver to the Scottish Parliament the kind of changes we want to see.

:16:03.:16:07.

Not just a more united and equal Scotland but a more enterprising

:16:07.:16:11.

Scotland as well. That is what I hope the national convention will

:16:11.:16:16.

look at. Thank you for coming to speak to us.

:16:16.:16:18.

Well, the Spring party political conference season is fast

:16:18.:16:20.

approaching and that is usually where significant policy

:16:20.:16:23.

announcements are trumpeted. And with politicians and the electorate

:16:23.:16:26.

calling for the debate to get past the process and on to the substance,

:16:26.:16:30.

we decided to take a look at what a no vote in 2014 would mean.

:16:30.:16:37.

Christine Macleod has been trying to find out.

:16:37.:16:41.

On one of the Prime Minister's visit to Scotland last year, he

:16:41.:16:46.

hinted he may be open to allowing Scotland more powers if Scots

:16:46.:16:50.

rejected independence. But are we any clearer on what Scotland would

:16:50.:16:57.

look like after a no vote. Scotland's -- Scottish Labour at

:16:58.:17:02.

talking about a national convention to plan the future. They will also

:17:02.:17:06.

reveal the findings of bed devolution Commission at their

:17:06.:17:09.

April conference. We are looking at where power

:17:09.:17:15.

should lie. It is about local government as well. We want to look

:17:15.:17:20.

at the best place for up power to set. It is about where it is most

:17:20.:17:23.

appropriately used and put into place and what they can deliver for

:17:23.:17:27.

people in Scotland. The Scottish Conservative leader

:17:28.:17:31.

once said she would draw a line in the sand when it came to more

:17:31.:17:37.

powers for Scotland but recently she has suggested looking at more

:17:37.:17:42.

powers after 2014. Her party will also be setting out its

:17:42.:17:46.

constitutional stall for the 2014 general election ahead of the

:17:46.:17:51.

referendum vote. We will bring in a concrete

:17:51.:17:57.

proposals ahead of the referendum in the terms of what we expect

:17:57.:18:01.

after the referendum. People in Scotland do want to see more

:18:01.:18:04.

responsibility taken in Holyrood for the decisions that are made

:18:04.:18:09.

here. That is something we have to reflect on.

:18:09.:18:13.

Liberal Democrats support Marholm role. They would like all the

:18:13.:18:19.

parties to come together and agreed to which powers they should have

:18:19.:18:28.

their in the event as a No vote. -- more home rule.

:18:29.:18:33.

It is important that when the voters go to the polls they

:18:33.:18:37.

understand that all the political parties in Scotland want more

:18:37.:18:43.

powers for Scotland. They expect the SNP, hopefully after they

:18:43.:18:48.

defeated in the referendum, to join that consensus.

:18:48.:18:53.

Once the SNP back such a plan if it lost the referendum?

:18:53.:18:58.

The SNP has always campaigned for more powers and will always do that

:18:58.:19:04.

until we are independent. The other parties must say what more powers

:19:04.:19:07.

they want the Scottish Parliament to have and how they can guarantee

:19:07.:19:12.

that those powers will be delivered by a Westminster government because

:19:12.:19:18.

past experience says that unless the SNP and the campaign for

:19:18.:19:25.

independence are providing a momentum, they do not deliver.

:19:25.:19:27.

Pressure is on the Unionist parties to come up with their own

:19:27.:19:32.

manifestos setting out their plans for Scotland's constitution. Should

:19:32.:19:38.

they include for more powers for Scotland?

:19:38.:19:43.

I do not think they need to panic at all. They do not need suit broke

:19:43.:19:48.

promises of more powers at the voters. Two-thirds of voters are

:19:48.:19:54.

quite happy. The essential question, yes or No to the union, that is the

:19:54.:19:59.

one we need to settle in the referendum. Nothing else.

:19:59.:20:03.

While there may at the moment be a majority in Scotland for remaining

:20:03.:20:10.

in the union, there is also clearly a majority in favour of devolution.

:20:10.:20:19.

-- of more devolution. There is an attempt to cement the loyalty of

:20:19.:20:23.

existing voters by giving a clear indication of what Scotland might

:20:23.:20:30.

be given in the way of more devolution in the wake of a No vote.

:20:30.:20:35.

So, to introduce more powers on not to introduce more powers? The real

:20:35.:20:39.

question is, what is the best strategy for Unionist parties if

:20:39.:20:44.

they are to win a no votes? With me in the the studio is the

:20:44.:20:46.

former Scottish Liberal Democrat MSP and leader of the Devo Plus

:20:46.:20:54.

group Jeremy Purvis. You are celebrating the first

:20:54.:20:59.

birthday of Devo Plus. You showed that this flowcharts this week

:20:59.:21:05.

which seems to appear with everyone moving into the middle ground. The

:21:05.:21:11.

SNP even appear to be looking from been delighted Devo Max.

:21:12.:21:15.

Before these proposals were launched last year there was

:21:15.:21:20.

uncertainty about whether or not the parties would move. Labour have

:21:20.:21:23.

established their commission and the latest speech by Ruth Davidson

:21:23.:21:30.

is very positive. They have shown movements but, one year on from the

:21:30.:21:35.

launch, we want to offer a challenge to the parties. We

:21:35.:21:42.

believe most people in Scotland's accept that the parties enable

:21:42.:21:45.

women to come together. We want to understand what will happen in the

:21:45.:21:50.

event of a No vote. We are suggesting a form of agreement, and

:21:50.:21:53.

equivalent to the Edinburgh agreement signed between the two

:21:53.:21:59.

governments to show that the two party leaders can show a unified

:21:59.:22:03.

proposition of what would happen in the event of a No vote.

:22:03.:22:07.

So that would be a funny unified opposition from the three main

:22:07.:22:13.

opposition parties? Is that not overly optimistic?

:22:13.:22:18.

The proposals have shown we can take forward powers. It can be done

:22:18.:22:22.

in a stable, proper way that can strengthen the parliament and also

:22:22.:22:27.

mean that we still gain from the United Kingdom. There is a

:22:27.:22:32.

consensus growing there. A Glasgow agreement which showed that a

:22:32.:22:35.

statement of intent by the parties would be addressing what many in

:22:35.:22:39.

Scotland are wanting to know, addressing what will happen in the

:22:39.:22:44.

event of a No vote and outlining the leadership from the parties to

:22:44.:22:47.

show that. We did it with the establishment of the parliament in

:22:47.:22:52.

the first place, we did it with the Calman Commission, said there is a

:22:52.:22:59.

clear precedent. Isn't the strongest way forward,

:22:59.:23:03.

are perhaps better, if we have three different ideologies coming

:23:03.:23:08.

forward? Perhaps if you have won this shed strategy it is less of a

:23:08.:23:18.
:23:18.:23:20.

moving target for the SNP -- one shed strategy?

:23:20.:23:23.

There was a convention between Labour and Liberal Democrats when

:23:23.:23:30.

we had the Edinburgh agreement. The Calman Commission are clarified the

:23:30.:23:35.

powers. It is up to the parties to use those powers and argue for the

:23:35.:23:41.

policies in the context of more accountability. We cannot conflicts

:23:41.:23:44.

what party policies are but people are hungry to know what the

:23:44.:23:50.

consequences of a No vote would be. We need a Glasgow agreements, a

:23:50.:23:55.

Statesman's intense -- a statement of intent of what would happen. The

:23:55.:24:01.

parliament is permanent, here to stay. That starts to give up a

:24:01.:24:08.

common ground that could be cut out. It does not stop Labour, the

:24:08.:24:10.

Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives from saying what

:24:10.:24:14.

their party policies are. Many people are hungry for clarity on

:24:14.:24:19.

the constitution. If there is in no fate any do not

:24:19.:24:23.

get this agreement, with these three disparate groups, I your

:24:23.:24:28.

concerns that further powers for Scotland might fall down of the

:24:28.:24:31.

Westminster agenda after the referendum?

:24:32.:24:39.

Also Melly, what we hope is to have a natural destination to this

:24:39.:24:44.

debate. We do not want to be perpetually talking about the

:24:44.:24:48.

constitution. We wanted to be clear in a referendum that there will be

:24:48.:24:53.

a yes proposition of what independence will look like and

:24:53.:24:57.

also it will be clear what will be the consequence of the process of

:24:57.:25:04.

the week that took place -- the process of the work there will take

:25:04.:25:10.

place in the event of a No vote. Without that it is harder to find a

:25:10.:25:14.

destination to this debate on devolution and I fear Scotland will

:25:14.:25:17.

be hobbled by a perpetual debate on the constitution when there are

:25:17.:25:23.

other areas we need to focus on. Well, it has been a busy old week

:25:23.:25:26.

in the political arena. Let us take a look back in The Week In 60

:25:26.:25:36.
:25:36.:25:38.

New proposals for regulatory bodies have been announced if Scotland

:25:38.:25:44.

becomes independent. The finance secretary says consumers will

:25:44.:25:49.

benefit by merging many regulators into one or two bodies. The Defence

:25:49.:25:54.

Secretary warned of further significant cuts to the armed

:25:54.:25:57.

forces harming military capability. He suggested savings should come

:25:57.:26:04.

from the welfare budget. A deal was struck to end the controversial

:26:04.:26:11.

practice of throwing discarded fish back into the sea. A third European

:26:11.:26:15.

foreign minister has said an independent Scotland would have to

:26:15.:26:20.

apply for EU membership. That fear's the minister said Scotland

:26:20.:26:25.

would be considered as a new country. And the Scottish Health

:26:25.:26:31.

Secretary had to leave an operating better after feeling fate while

:26:31.:26:34.

watching a kidney transplant operation in Edinburgh's Royal

:26:34.:26:44.
:26:44.:26:50.

So that was the week that was. Let I am joined by the SNP blogger Kate

:26:50.:26:54.

Higgins, who writes under the name of BurdsEyeVoew. Alongside her,

:26:54.:27:01.

Labour cyber commentator, the lawyer Ian Smart.

:27:01.:27:09.

Let us look at the top stories this week. What are you make of the

:27:09.:27:12.

statement from the former priest who said he was scared to speak

:27:12.:27:16.

out? I think the whole thing is very

:27:16.:27:21.

difficult now. I do not have a huge interest in the sex life of

:27:21.:27:26.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien. To some of the detail that is coming out now

:27:26.:27:32.

seems to be moving into the realms of the prurience, shall we say? It

:27:32.:27:36.

is a terrible crisis for the Catholic Church but it will survive

:27:36.:27:41.

that crisis. Kate Higgins, we are discussing the

:27:41.:27:46.

moral authority of the church. They have been very involved in equal

:27:46.:27:56.
:27:56.:27:56.

marriage to date. Where does this leave their moral authority?

:27:56.:28:00.

They will lose that authority if they continue to choose to focus

:28:00.:28:03.

their energies and attention on sexual morality issues. The

:28:03.:28:09.

Catholic Church has handled this pretty badly. Abuse scandals, if

:28:09.:28:14.

you like, and allegations can go one of two ways. We can try and to

:28:14.:28:17.

shut it down and put it back in the cupboards and hope it does not come

:28:17.:28:21.

out again or you can take an Open and as transparent approach and

:28:22.:28:27.

that is what the Church needs to do. It needs to acknowledge things may

:28:27.:28:30.

not have been right in the past and give the opportunity to other

:28:30.:28:36.

victims to come forward. Let us turn to the bedroom tax. An

:28:36.:28:42.

interesting comment from you this week, hitting out at all the main

:28:42.:28:45.

parties. Whenever the reasons we campaign

:28:45.:28:49.

for a Scottish Parliament was of that it would protect Scotland's in

:28:49.:28:54.

the eventuality of a Tory government in Westminster. They

:28:54.:28:59.

have the power to undermine this bedroom tax. We need money made

:28:59.:29:03.

available to the people who will lose their housing benefit. The

:29:03.:29:09.

Scottish Parliament could do that and are choosing not to. It is a

:29:09.:29:15.

cause of a lack of political well, not caused by a lack of power.

:29:15.:29:20.

What is your view on that? I Commons Road this morning to

:29:20.:29:28.

carry forward that argument. I agree it is a lack of political

:29:29.:29:37.

will -- political will. This should have been sorted out last year to

:29:37.:29:41.

get is pushed out of the Welfare Reform Bill. Councils in the last

:29:41.:29:47.

two months, led by Labour and the SNP, have increased rent by huge

:29:47.:29:51.

margins and pushed further hardship on to tenants when they had the

:29:51.:29:56.

opportunity to freeze rents and enable people to afford what will

:29:56.:30:03.

come down the line in bedroom tax. We actually just need the parties

:30:03.:30:08.

to use the powers they have ants to work creatively and unite on this.

:30:09.:30:15.

We cannot have this as a party political issue. It is to be as

:30:15.:30:25.
:30:25.:30:33.

If you look at what Douglas Alexander said, he talks about

:30:33.:30:37.

powers for the Scottish Parliament, but he is also talking about what

:30:37.:30:43.

kind of Scotland we want. We seem to have gone through the whole

:30:43.:30:48.

period of devolution, first, the Labour administration wanted to do

:30:48.:30:54.

as little as possible different. Then, and SNP administration

:30:54.:30:59.

obsessed with, we want a fully independent Scotland. Nobody has

:30:59.:31:03.

said, these are the powers of the Scottish Parliament, these are the

:31:03.:31:08.

problems, these are how we applied these powers to these problems.

:31:08.:31:13.

Sunday Herald had alienation, Nicola Sturgeon speaking about how

:31:13.:31:23.
:31:23.:31:26.

the UK government is changing how things are done south of the border.

:31:26.:31:31.

Douglas Alexander's speech was fantastic, with huge quotable

:31:31.:31:37.

chunks. I disagreed with three- quarters of it, but it was great.

:31:37.:31:41.

Two things of note, it sets out a blueprint for the Labour Party if

:31:41.:31:47.

they choose to follow, if they want to have a chance of winning at the

:31:47.:31:50.

2016 elections, but what is eliminating it is the non-committal

:31:50.:31:56.

approach and response from them to date. But there is a lot of

:31:56.:32:01.

presumption that Scotland will not move towards a yes vote in 2000 of

:32:01.:32:06.

14, and it is just for the Unionist parties to carp at the future and

:32:06.:32:11.

to start that process now. From his speech about the change in Scotland,

:32:11.:32:15.

what was remarkable to me was how similar he and Nicola Sturgeon

:32:15.:32:23.

sound. If we can find a way forward, there is hope. But I agree, it is

:32:23.:32:28.

reassuring to hear parties to the starting to think about how they

:32:28.:32:33.

want to create Scotland in the future.

:32:33.:32:39.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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