Browse content similar to 27/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Hope you enjoyed | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
the extra hour in bed and that you've realise it's not quarter to | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
one. It's quarter to 12! It's getting stormy outside. But | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
they're already battening down the hatches at Number ten because | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
coalition splits are back, with bust-ups over free schools and power | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
bills. We'll speak to the Lib Dems and ask Labour who's conning whom | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
over energy. EU leaders have been meeting in | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
Brussels. But how's David Cameron getting on with that plan to change | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
our relationship with Europe. We were there to ask him. | :01:04. | :01:13. | |
Have we got any powers back yet? Foreign companies own everything | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
from our energy companies to our railways. Does it matter who owns | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
our businesses? Union boss Bob Crow and venture capitalist Julie Meyer | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
go head to head. And here on Sunday Politics | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
Scotland. More on the questions surrounding the role unions play in | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
today's workforce - could this week's events at Grangemouth signal | :01:30. | :01:30. | |
a sea change? pace? | :01:31. | :01:45. | |
And with me, three journalists who've bravely agreed to hunker down | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
in the studio while Britain braces itself for massive storm winds, | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
tweeting their political forecasts with all the accuracy of Michael | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
Fish on hurricane watch. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt. | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
Now, sometimes coalition splits are over-egged, or dare we say even | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
occasionally stage-managed. But this week, we've seen what looks like the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
genuine article. It turns out Nick Clegg has his doubts about the | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
coalition's flagship free schools policy. David Cameron doesn't much | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
like the green levies on our energy bills championed by the Lib Dems. | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
Neither of them seems to have bothered to tell the other that they | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
had their doubts. Who better to discuss these flare-ups than Lib Dem | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
Deputy Leader Simon Hughes? He joins me now. Welcome. Good morning. The | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
Lib Dems spent three years of sticking up for the coalition when | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
times were grim. Explain to me the logic of splitting from them when | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
times look better. We will stick with it for five years. It is | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
working arrangement, but not surprisingly, where there right | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
areas on which we disagree over where to go next, we will stand up. | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
It is going to be hard enough for the Lib Dems to get any credit for | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
the recovery, what ever it is. It will be even harder if you seem to | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
be semidetached and picky. The coalition has led on economic | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
policy, some of which were entirely from our stable. The one you have | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
heard about most often, a Lib Dem initiative, was to take people on | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
blowing comes out of tax. The recovery would not have happened, | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
there would not have been confidence in Britain, had there not been a | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
coalition government with us in it, making sure the same policies | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
produced fair outcomes. We are not going to leave the credit for any | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
growth - and there has been very good news this week. We have played | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
a part in that, and without us, it would not have happened. Does it not | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
underline the trust problem you have? You promised to abolish | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
tuition fees. You oppose nuclear power, now you are cheerleading the | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
first multi-billion pounds investment in nuclear generation. | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
You are dying out on your enthusiasm on green levies, and now they are up | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
for renegotiation. Why should we trust a word you say? In relation to | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
green levies, as you well know, just under 10% is to do with helping | :04:17. | :04:26. | |
energy and helping people. Unless there is continuing investment in | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
renewables, we will not have the British produced energy at cheaper | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
cost to keep those bills down in the future. At cheaper cost? Explain | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
that to me. Off-shore energy is twice the market rate. The costs of | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
renewables will increasingly come down. We have fantastic capacity to | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
produce the energy and deliver lots of jobs in the process. The parts of | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
the energy bill that may be up for renegotiation seems to be the part | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
where we subsidise to help either poor people pay less, or where we do | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
other things. Too insulated the homes? Are you up to putting that to | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
general taxation? Wouldn't that be progressive? I would. It would be | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
progressive. I would like to do for energy bills what the Chancellor has | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
done for road traffic users, drivers, which is too fuelled motor | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
fuel -- to freeze new to fall. That would mean there would be an | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
immediate relief this year, not waiting for the election. So there | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
is a deal to be done there? Yes. We understand we have to take the | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
burden off the consumer, and also deal with the energy companies, who | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
look as if they are not paying all the tax they should be, and the | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
regulator, which doesn't regulate quickly enough to deal with the | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
issues coming down the track. We can toughen the regulator, and I hope | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
that the Chancellor, in the Autumn statement, was signalled that energy | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
companies will not be allowed to get away with not paying the taxes they | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
should. And this deal will allow energy prices to come down? Yes. How | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
could David Laws, one of your ministers, proudly defend the record | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
of unqualified teachers working in free schools, and then stand | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
side-by-side with Mr Clegg, as he says he is against them? David Laws | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
was not proudly defending the fact that it is unqualified teachers. He | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
said that some of the new, unqualified teachers in free schools | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
are doing a superb job. But you want to get rid of them? We want to make | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
sure that everybody coming into a free school ends up being qualified. | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
Ends up? Goes through a process that means they have qualifications. Just | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
as we said very clearly at the last election that the manifesto | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
curriculum in free schools should be the same as other schools. It looks | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
like Mr Clegg is picking a fight just for the sake of it. Mr Clegg | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
was taught by people who didn't have teaching qualifications in one of | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
the greatest schools in the land, if not the world. It didn't seem to do | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
him any harm. What is the problem? If you pay to go to a school, you | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
know what you're getting. But that is what a free school is. No, you | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
don't pay fees. A free school is parents taking the decisions, not | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
you, the politicians. We believe they would expect to guarantee is, | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
firstly that the minimum curriculum taught across the country is taught | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
in the free schools, and secondly, that the teachers there are | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
qualified. Someone who send their kids to private schools took a | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
decision to take -- to send their children there, even if the teachers | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
were unqualified, because they are experts in their field. Someone who | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
send their kids to free schools is because -- is their decision, not | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
yours. Because some of the free schools are new, and have never been | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
there before, parents need a guarantee that there are some basics | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
in place, whatever sort of school. So they need you to hold their hand? | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
It is not about holding hands, it is about having a minimum guarantee. | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
Our party made clear at our conference that this is a priority | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
for us. Nick Clegg reflects the view of the party, and I believe it is an | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
entirely rational thing to do. Nick Clegg complained that the Prime | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Minister gave him only 30 minutes notice on the Prime Minister Buzz 's | :08:41. | :08:49. | |
U-turn on green levies. That is almost as little time as Nick Clegg | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
gave the Prime Minister on his U-turn on free schools. Aren't you | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
supposed to be partners? Green levies were under discussion in the | :08:57. | :09:05. | |
ministerial group before Wednesday, because we identified this as an | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
issue. We do that in a practical way. Sometimes there is only half an | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
hour's notice. We had even less than half an hour this morning! Simon | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
Hughes, thank you. So the price of energy is the big | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
battle ground in politics at the moment. 72% of people say that high | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
bills will influence the way they vote at the next election. Ed | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
Miliband has promised a price freeze after the next election, but will | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
the coalition turned the tables on Labour, with its proposal to roll | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
back green levies. Caroline Flint joins us from Sheffield. It looks | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
like the coalition will be able to take ?50 of energy bills, by | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
removing green levies. It is quite clear that different parts of the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
government are running round waking up to the fact that the public feel | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
that this government has not done enough to listen to their concerns. | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
Last week, there was a classic case of the Prime Minister making up | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
policy literally at the dispatch box. Let's see what they say in the | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
autumn statement. The truth is, whatever the debate around green | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
levies, and I have always said we should look at value for money at | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
those green levies. Our argument is about acknowledging there is | :10:32. | :10:48. | |
something wrong with the way the market works, and the way those | :10:49. | :10:50. | |
companies are regulated. Behind our freeze for 20 months is a package of | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
proposals to reform this market. I understand that, but you cannot tell | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
as the details about that. I can. You cannot give us the details about | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
reforming the market. We are going to do three things, and I think I | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
said this last time I was on the programme. First, we are going to | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
separate out the generation side from the supply side within the big | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
six. Secondly, we will have a energy pool, or power exchange, where all | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
energy will have to be traded in that pool. Thirdly, we will | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
establish a tougher regulator, because Ofgem is increasingly being | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
seen as not doing the job right. I notice that you didn't mention any | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
reform of the current green and social taxes on the energy bill. Is | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
it Labour's policy to maintain the existing green levies? In 2011, the | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
government chose to get rid of warm front, which was the publicly funded | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
through tracks a scheme to support new installation. When they got rid | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
of that, it was the first time we had a government since the 70s that | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
didn't have such a policy. What is your policy? We voted against that | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
because we believe it is wrong. We believe that the eco-scheme, a | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
government intervention which is ?47 of the ?112 on our bills each year, | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
is expensive, bureaucratic and isn't going to the fuel poor. I am up for | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
a debate on these issues. I am up for a discussion on what the | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
government should do and what these energy companies should do. We | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
cannot let Cameron all the energy companies off the hook from the way | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
in which they organise their businesses, and expect us to pay | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
ever increasing rises in our bills. There is ?112 of green levies on our | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
bills at the moment. Did you vote against any of them? We didn't, but | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
what I would say ease these were government imposed levies. When they | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
got rid of the government funded programme, Warm Front, they | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
introduced the eco-scheme. The eco-project is one of the ones where | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
the energy companies are saying, it's too bureaucratic, and it is | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
proving more expensive than government estimates, apparently | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
doubled the amount the government thought. These things are all worth | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
looking at, but don't go to the heart of the issue. According to | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
official figures, on current plans, which you support, which you voted | :13:26. | :13:35. | |
for, households will be paying 41% more per unit of electricity by | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
2030. It puts your temporary freeze as just a blip. You support a 41% | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
rise in our bills. I support making sure we secure for the future access | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
to energy that we can grow here in the UK, whether it is through | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
nuclear, wind or solar, or other technologies yet to be developed. We | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
should protect ourselves against energy costs we cannot control. The | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
truth is, it is every fair for you to put that point across, and I | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
accept that, but we need to hear the other side about the cost for bill | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
payers if we didn't invest in new, indigenous sources of energy supply | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
for the future, which, in the long run, will be cheaper and more | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
secure, and create the jobs we need. I think it is important to | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
have a debate about these issues, but they have to be seen in the | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
right context. If we stay stuck in the past, we will pay more and we | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
will not create jobs. How can you criticise the coalition's plans for | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
a new nuclear station, when jeering 13 years of a Labour government, you | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
did not invest in a single nuclear plant? You sold off all our nuclear | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
technology to foreign companies. Energy provision was put out to | :14:59. | :15:12. | |
private hands and there has been no obstacle in British law against | :15:13. | :15:22. | |
ownership outside the UK. Part of this is looking ahead. Because your | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
previous track record is so bad? What we did decide under the | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
previous government, we came to the view, and there were discussions in | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
our party about this, that we did need to support a nuclear future. | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
At the time of that, David Cameron was one of those saying that | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
nuclear power should be a last resort. And as you said, the | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
Liberals did not support it. We stood up for that. We set in train | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
the green light of 10 sites, including Hinkley Point, for | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
nuclear development. I am glad to see that is making progress and we | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
should make more progress over the years ahead. We took a tough | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
decision when other governments had not done. You did not build a new | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
nuclear station. When you get back into power, will you build HS2? | :16:19. | :16:26. | |
That has not had a blank cheque from the Labour Party. I am in | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
favour of good infrastructure. Are you in favour of?, answer the | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
question? I have answered the question. It does not have a blank | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
cheque. If the prices are too high, we will review the decision when we | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
come back to vote on it. We will be looking at it closely. We have to | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
look for value for money and how it benefits the country. Have you | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
stocked up on jumpers this winter? I am perfectly all right with my | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
clothing. What is important, it is ridiculous for the Government to | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
suggest that the answer to the loss of trust in the energy companies is | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
to put on another jumper. The coalition has taken a long time | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
to come up with anything that can trump Ed Miliband's simple freezing | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
energy prices, vote for us. Are they on the brink of doing so? I do | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
not think so. They have had a problem that has dominated the | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
debate, talking about GDP, the figures came out on Friday and said, | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
well, and went back to talking about energy. My problem with what | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
David Cameron proposes is he agrees with the analysis that the Big Six | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
make too many profits. He wants to move the green levies into general | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
taxation, so that he looks like he is protecting the profits of the | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
energy companies. If the coalition can say they will take money off | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
the bills, does that change the game? I do not think the Liberal | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
Democrats are an obstacle to unwinding the green levies. I think | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
Nick Clegg is open to doing a deal, but the real obstacle is the carbon | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
reduction targets that we signed up to during the boom years. They were | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
ambitious I thought at the time. From that we have the taxes and | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
clocking up of the supply-side of the economy. Unless he will revise | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
that, and build from first principles a new strategy, he | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
cannot do more than put a dent into green levies. He might say as I | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
have got to ?50 now and if you voters in in an overall majority, I | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
will look up what we have done in the better times and give you more. | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
I am sure he will do that. It might be ?50 of the Bill, but it will be | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
?50 on your general taxation bill, which would be more progressive. | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
They will find it. We will never see it in general taxation. The | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
problem for the Coalition on what Ed Miliband has done is that it is | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
five weeks since he made that speech and it is all we are talking | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
about. David Cameron spent those five weeks trying to work out | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
whether Ed Miliband is a Marxist or whether he is connected to Middle | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
Britain. That is why Ed Miliband set the agenda. The coalition are | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
squabbling among themselves, looking petulant, on energy, and on | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
schools. Nobody is taking notice of the fact the economy is under way, | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
the recovery is under way. Ed Miliband has made the weather on | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
this. It UK has a relaxed attitude about | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
selling off assets based -- to companies based abroad. But this | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
week we have seen the Swiss owner of one of Scotland's largest | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
industrial sites, Grangemouth, come within a whisker of closing part of | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
it down. So should we care whether British assets have foreign owners? | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
Britain might be a nation of homeowners, but we appear to have | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
lost our taste for owning some of our biggest businesses. These are | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
among the crown jewels sold off in the past three decades to companies | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
based abroad. Roughly half of Britain's essential services have | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
overseas owners. The airport owner, British Airports Authority, is | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
owned by a Spanish company. Britain's largest water company, | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
Thames, is owned by a consortium led by an Australian bank. Four out | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
of six of Britain's biggest energy companies are owned by overseas | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
giants, and one of these, EDF Energy, which is owned by the | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
French state, is building Britain's first nuclear power plant in a | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
generation, backed by Chinese investors. It's a similar story for | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
train operator Arriva, bought by a company owned by the German state. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
So part of the railways privatised by the British government was | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
effectively re-nationalised by the German government. But does it | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
matter who owns these companies, as long as the lights stay on, the | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
trains run on time, and we can still eat Cadbury's Dairy Milk? | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
We are joined by the general secretary of the RMT, Bob Crow, and | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
by venture capitalist Julie Meyer. They go head to head. | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
Have we seen the consequences of relying for essential services to | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
be foreign-owned? Four of the Big Six energy companies, Grangemouth, | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
owned by a tax exile in Switzerland. It is not good. I do not think | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
there is a cause and effect relationship between foreign | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
ownership and consumer prices. That is not the right comparison. We | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
need to be concerned about businesses represented the future, | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
businesses we are good at innovating for example in financial | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
services and the UK has a history of building businesses, such as | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
Monotypes. If we were not creating businesses here -- Monotise. Like | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
so many businesses creating products and services and creating | :22:37. | :22:46. | |
the shareholders. Should we allow hour essential services to be in | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
foreign ownership? It was demonstrated this week at | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Grangemouth. If you do not own the industry, you do not own it. The | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
MPs of this country and the politicians in Scotland have no say, | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
they were consultants. Multinationals decide whether to | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
shut a company down. If that had been Unite union, they are the ones | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
who saved the jobs. They capitulated. They will come back, | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
like they have for the past 150 years, and capture again what they | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
lost. If it had closed, they would have lost their jobs for ever. If | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
the union had called the members up without a ballot for strike action, | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
there would have been uproar. This person in Switzerland can decide to | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
shut the entire industry down. The coalition, the Labour Party, as | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
well, when Labour was in government, they played a role of allowing | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
industries to go abroad, and it should be returned to public | :23:53. | :24:04. | |
ownership. Nestor. It has demonstrated that the Net comes | :24:05. | :24:12. | |
from new businesses. We must not be... When Daly motion was stopped | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
by the French government to be sold, it was an arrow to the heart of | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
French entrepreneurs. We must not create that culture in the UK. | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
Every train running in France is built in France. 90% of the trains | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
running in Germany are built in Germany. In Japan, it has to be | :24:32. | :24:42. | |
built in that country, and now an energy company in France is | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
reducing its nuclear capability in its own country and wants to make | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
profits out of the British industry to put back into it state industry. | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
That happened with the railway industry. They want to make money | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
at the expense of their own state companies. We sold off energy | :24:59. | :25:09. | |
production. How did we end up in a position where our nuclear capacity | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
will be built by a company owned by a socialist date, France, and | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
funded by a communist one, China, for vital infrastructure? I am not | :25:18. | :25:26. | |
suggesting that is in the national interest. I am saying we can pick | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
any one example and say it is a shame. The simple matter of the | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
fact is the owners are having to make decisions. Not just | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
Grangemouth, businesses are making decisions about what is the common | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
good. Not just in the shareholders' interest. For employees, customers. | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
What is in the common good when prices go up by 10% and the reason | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
is that 20 years ago they shut every coal pit down in this country, | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
the Germans kept theirs open and subsidised it and now we have the | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
Germans doing away with nuclear power and they have coal. Under the | :26:03. | :26:11. | |
Labour government, in 2008, the climate change Act was passed. Well | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
before that, and you know yourself, they shut down the coal mines to | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
smash the National Union of Mineworkers because they dared to | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
stand up for people in their community. Even if we wanted to | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
reopen the coalmines, it would be pointless. Under the 2008 Act, we | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
are not meant to burn more coal. The can, as if you spent some of | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
the profits, you could have carbon catch up. That does not exist on a | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
massive scale. You are arguing the case, Julie Meyer, for | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
entrepreneurs to come to this country. Even Bob Crow is not | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
against that. We are trying to argue, should essential services be | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
in foreign hands? Not those in Silicon round about doing start-ups. | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
I am trying to draw a broader principle than just energy. | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
Something like broadband services, also important to the functioning | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
of the economy. I believe in the UK's ability to innovate. When we | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
have businesses that play off broadband companies to get the best | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
prices for consumers. These new businesses and business models are | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
the best way. Not to control, but to influence. It will be a disaster. | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
Prices will go up and up as a result. Nissan in Sunderland, a | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
Japanese factory, some of the best cars and productivity. You want | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
that to be nationalised and bring it down to the standard of British | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
Leyland? It is not bring it down to the standard. The car manufacturing | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
base in this country has been wrecked. We make more cars now for | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
20 years -- than in 20 years. Ford's Dagenham produced some of | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
the best cars in the world. Did you buy one? I cannot drive. They moved | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
their plants to other countries, where it was cheaper labour. Would | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
you nationalise Nissan? There should be one car industry that | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
produces cars for people. This week the EU summit was about Angela | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
Merkel's mobile phone being tapped, they call it a handy. We sent Adam | :28:41. | :28:49. | |
to Brussels and told him to ignore the business about phone-tapping | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
and investigate the Prime Minister's policy on Europe instead. | :28:53. | :29:02. | |
I have come to my first EU summit to see how David Cameron is getting on | :29:03. | :29:11. | |
with his strategy to claim power was back from Brussels. Got any powers | :29:12. | :29:20. | |
back yet? Yes! Which ones? Sadly, his fellow leaders were not as | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
forthcoming. Chancellor, are you going to give any powers back to | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
Britain? Has David Cameron asked you for any powers back? The president | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
of the commission just laughed, and listen to the Lithuanian President. | :29:36. | :29:44. | |
How is David Cameron's renegotiation strategy going? What's that? He | :29:45. | :29:54. | |
wants powers back for Britain. No one knows what powers David Cameron | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
actually wants. Even our usual allies, like Sweden, are bit | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
baffled. We actually don't know yet what is going through the UK | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
membership. We will await the finalisation of that first. You | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
should ask him, and then tell us! Here is someone who must know, the | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
Dutch Prime Minister, he is doing what we are doing, carrying out a | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
review of the EU powers, known as competencies in the jargon, before | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
negotiating to get some back. Have you had any negotiations with David | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
Cameron over what powers you can bring back from Brussels? That is | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
not on the agenda of this summit. Have you talked to him about it? | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
This is not on the schedule for this summit. | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
David Cameron's advises tummy it is because he is playing the long game. | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
-- David Cameron's advisers tell me. At this summit, there was a task | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
force discussing how to cut EU red tape. Just how long this game is was | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
explained to me outside the summit, by the leader of the Conservatives | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
in the European Parliament. I think the behind-the-scenes negotiations | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
will start happening when the new commissioner is appointed later next | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
year. I think the detailed negotiations will start to happen | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
bubbly after the UK general election. That is when we will start | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
getting all of the detail of the horse trading, and real, Lake night | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
negotiations. Angela Merkel seems keen to rewrite the EU's main | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
treaties to deal with changes in the Eurozone, and that is the mechanism | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
David Cameron would use to renegotiate our membership. Everyone | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
here says his relationship with the German Chancellor is strong. So | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
after days in this building, here is how it looks. David Cameron has a | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
mountain to climb. It is climbable, but he isn't even in the foothills | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
yet. Has he even started packing his bags for the trip? | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
Joining us now, a man who knows a thing or two about the difficulties | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
Prime Minister 's face in Europe. Former Deputy Prime Minister, | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
Michael Heseltine. We are nine months from David Cameron's defining | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
speech on EU renegotiation. Can you think of one area of progress? I | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
don't know. And you don't know. And that's a good thing. Why is it a | :32:44. | :32:51. | |
good thing? Because the real progress goes on behind closed | :32:52. | :33:02. | |
doors. And only the most naive, because the real progress goes on | :33:03. | :33:04. | |
behind You are much better off making | :33:05. | :33:33. | |
progress the best you can in the privacy. It is a long journey ahead. | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
Do you have a clear sense of the destination? No. I have a clear | :33:42. | :33:53. | |
sense of the destination which is the victor the key will win to stay | :33:54. | :34:03. | |
inside the European community. I of course have total support for that. | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
If he is incapable of getting any tangible sign of the negotiation and | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
is able to do only what Harold Wilson don't in 1975 which is | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
getting a couple of talking changes, he goes on to the referendum without | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
much to answer for, doesn't he? He has everything to argue for. He has | :34:30. | :34:39. | |
Britain's vital role as a major contributor and beneficiary. He has | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
the vital role of the city of London. He could argue for that now. | :34:46. | :34:55. | |
He doesn't want to have a referendum now and I have no doubt he will come | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
back with something to talk about. It may be slightly different to what | :35:04. | :35:12. | |
his critics, the UK isolationists, want. He may have found allies | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
within the community want change as well. He may secure changes the way | :35:20. | :35:30. | |
the community works, which would be a significant argument within the | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
referendum campaign. As an example, I happen to think it is a scandal | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
the European commission do not secure the auditing of some of the | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
accounts. Perhaps that could be on the agenda. He might find a lot of | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
contributing countries, like Germany and Holland, might be very keen. We | :35:50. | :36:00. | |
saw the other day he vetoed the increase in the European budget and | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
he had a lot of allies, so working within Europe or the things the | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
people want is fertile ground in my view. | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
Is John Major right to call for a windfall tax on the energy | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
companies? Here's a very cautious Philip Hollobone does not say things | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
thinking about. -- -- cautious fellow. It is pretty difficult to | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
predict what the consequences would be. I am myself more interested in | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
the other part of his speech which was speaking about the need for the | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
Conservatives to seek a wider horizon and recognise what is | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
happening to the party and the way in which its membership is | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
shrinking. I take it you are not for a windfall tax? I am not in favour | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
of increasing taxes anywhere. Do you shear scepticism on Iain Duncan | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
Smith's ability to succeed with welfare reform? I think he is right | :37:12. | :37:21. | |
and I indeed wrote a pamphlet in the 1980s called no place for hostages | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
arguing for what he is now trying to do. -- ostriches. He is right to try | :37:25. | :37:34. | |
this and public opinion is behind him but it is not easy because on | :37:35. | :37:43. | |
the fringe of these issues, there are genuine hard luck stories and | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
these are the ones that become the focus for attention and it requires | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
a lot of political skill to negotiate through that. Is he right | :37:55. | :38:02. | |
to invoke the beverage principle that you should be expected to make | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
a contribution? -- Beveridge. We will let you get your Sunday lunch. | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the | :38:18. | :38:29. | |
programme. Grangemouth over the past week has | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
captivated the country. We will be examining the future role of unions | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
in industrial relations. We'll weigh that up with a panel of people | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
who've discussed and debated the place of unions in Scotland for | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
several decades. And a win in Dunfermline for Scottish Labour - | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
we'll speak to their leader Johann Lamont about how the party plans to | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
capitalise on the victory. Scotland's biggest industrial | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
complex was close to collapse this week, saved at the eleventh hour by | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
the total capitulation of a once powerful, unionised workforce. There | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
were certainly echoes of the 1970s in the Grangemouth dispute, but | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
Unite the union was overwhelmed by the hardline tactics of 21st century | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
mobile capital. Politicians were virtually powerless too in the face | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
of this emerging phenomenon. As Andrew Kerr reports, industrial | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
relations may never be the same again. | :39:14. | :39:28. | |
The spear Grangemouth this week with 800 workers having to tell their | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
families they were probably out of a job. People will probably never | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
forget these events but there's a more positive outcome. A more | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
harmonious relationship has been re-established here at Grangemouth. | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
Really for the workers and now perhaps recriminations against the | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
union. They marched their members up to the top of the hell but had to | :39:55. | :40:03. | |
march back down again. Ineos wanted the other way and were prepared to | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
take the sanction. Those are the methods of multinationals playing a | :40:08. | :40:15. | |
global game. We want to see a long-term future for Grangemouth. We | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
should be talking about them about the levels of long-term investment. | :40:22. | :40:30. | |
Not just intent on a fight. The world has moved on from the 1970s. | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
It certainly has. Look at the deal struck if you can even call it that. | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
They agreed to a three-year pay freeze with no strikes, closure of | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
the final salary pension scheme and no full-time union conveners. The | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
union was over a barrel this week, a far cry from these days. There will | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
be no vandalism, there will be no bevvying! They were dealing with | :41:03. | :41:14. | |
Ineos this time. If they had watched what was happening over the years, | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
this is a business that has had to deal with international bankers and | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
won that round. It clearly was signalling there were problems and | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
we have not been listening hard enough to understand how important | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
it was to accept the changes which are facing most people in Scotland | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
today. Some Labour MPs have been defending the union but whether the | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
tactics were hardline and uncompromising. We can only | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
represent the members we are representing at that time. We had | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
our members faced with three days to make key decisions on really radical | :41:58. | :42:06. | |
changes to terms and conditions. That probably means an emasculated | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
union at Grangemouth but it seems there's still a for them and perhaps | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
one more powerful. Any union has an important part to play and has two | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
learn the lessons of what did not work but I imagine any management | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
would want to make sure of that as well because it is an easy and | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
powerful way to get through to the staff of what needs to happen. I | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
imagine they will want to make union relationships work as well. Jim | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
Ratcliffe has called for the UK to the former Labour relations. The | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
question now is how many other employers have been watching this | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
dispute with interest wondering how far they can now push the unions. | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
Joining me now in the studio to discuss the fall out from last weeks | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
events - former Falkirk West Labour MP and later, Independent MSP, | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
Dennis Canavan and Chris Bartter who was with Unison Scotland for 20 | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
years. And in our Edinburgh studio, Alan Cochrane, Scottish Editor of | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
the Daily Telegraph. Good afternoon. As the dust settles, | :43:12. | :43:22. | |
who was to blame? Now was not the time for recriminations. I had the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
privilege of representing the Falkirk area for over 30 years and | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
many of my former constituents are employed at Grangemouth. They are | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
not militant extremists. Where they misled? I do not like the way they | :43:39. | :43:47. | |
and the trade union movement have been demonised by certain elements | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
in the media and certain politicians. These people by and | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
large are responsible citizens and employees and trade unionists. I | :43:58. | :44:05. | |
think the officials of the trade union in retrospect could say things | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
should have been handled better. That is all well in hindsight but | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
they were up against a ruthless and intransigent employer who was not | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
coming clean with the workforce, and we are where all sorts of | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
allegations coming out. Jim Ratcliffe was saying they are to be | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
honest about the finances. That is what was lacking all along, the lack | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
of honesty and transparency on behalf of the employer, and I think | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
there would have been a better and there weren't, had we had there been | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
transparency. Was the union demonised? I was astonished when you | :44:46. | :44:54. | |
said this was a case when the union was overwhelmed by 20th-century | :44:55. | :45:03. | |
mobile capitalism. They were overwhelmed by a union that walked | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
straight into a trap. The management wanted to change these working | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
practices and instead of arguing about the practices, the union | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
decided to fight a stupid 1970s battle about political power way or | :45:18. | :45:27. | |
the convener, according to the evidence amassed, he was spending a | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
quarter of his time trying to organise or fix a constituency | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
Labour Party selection. That is nothing to do with trade unions as | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
we understand them now. What about wages and conditions? This is what | :45:42. | :45:50. | |
the union chose to fight. This was a unique situation in terms of | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
industrial relations what the company controlled by one powerful | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
man, so negotiation would be very different to what you would normally | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
expect? Probably most trade union negotiations traditionally have not | :46:08. | :46:22. | |
been done like this. They usually negotiate collectively but this was | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
not like that at all. I also have felt that the attitudes to the trade | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
unions over the last week or so has been quite disgraceful from some | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
quarters of the media. They are the victims here. Have they served their | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
members well when you look at the outcome? I think the situation with | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
the union is that you have to remember the union is its members in | :46:55. | :47:02. | |
this sense. They vote for strike action over the attacks on wages and | :47:03. | :47:10. | |
conditions was an 82% of vote on an 86% return. The decision to go back | :47:11. | :47:20. | |
and accept the ultimatum from Jim Ratcliffe was a workforce decision. | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
You are shaking your head? Everyone seems to be forgetting the initial | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
strike was called over speedy deans but I agree, this dispute shows | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
Scotland on both sides in a very bad light. -- Stevie Deans. I have | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
spoken to outsiders involved in these negotiations and they have all | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
been astonished by the level of personal animosity between the shop | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
floor and the management. It was poisonous. It was a stupid union | :47:53. | :48:01. | |
dealing with management levels which were impenetrable. They could not | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
work out what the management structure was and everything had to | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
go back to Jim Ratcliffe, but instead of fighting that battle, | :48:11. | :48:22. | |
they wanted to fight on deans. What does this tell us about union | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
relations going forward? The positive part of this outcome was | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
that thousands of jobs have been saved, although belatedly. The | :48:34. | :48:44. | |
negative part is the management and the order still seem intent on | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
victimising the workforce. -- and Jim Ratcliffe. They are now coming | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
up with suggestions that people that voted against the company proposal | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
should get a worse deal on pensions than people who voted for it. If | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
ever there is a way to continue the acrimony and bad industrial | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
relations, that is the way to do it. Scotland is light years behind some | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
other countries in terms of industrial democracy. Look at | :49:17. | :49:24. | |
Denmark and Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Look at | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
Germany, even. Workers have more salient in planning and investment | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
decisions of their companies and instead of this silly confrontation, | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
you get more of a cooperation and better productivity. Looking for | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
work, what we need to say is it wasn't just the workforce, it was | :49:52. | :49:59. | |
also politicians and communities in Scotland that had the gun held to | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
his head. Would he not argue it is has money? He is going to borrow | :50:04. | :50:13. | |
money from here... He now has the UK government to give a loan guarantee. | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
If he defaults, it is us that had to pay it back, so he has actually | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
helped that loaded gun across the board to all of us and walked away. | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
I worry considerably that the 25 years future that was spoken of in | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
the press yesterday by the company and politicians will only last as | :50:40. | :50:53. | |
long as the next demand. It will work in Scotland, it will work only | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
if they give up this idea they can run political parties as well. Ed | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
Miliband is trying to distance himself, you cannot have the union | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
at a loss-making plant spending a quarter of its time fiddling a | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
selection conference. That is not the way to get worker representation | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
on board. These allegations have not been proven. We need to look at | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
governmental responsibility and taxpayers money going into these | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
companies. The UK government have put a loan guarantee of ?125 | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
million, the Scottish government regional development assistance of | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
?9 million. That is a lot of taxpayers money, and in return I | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
think both governments should use that money is leveraged to ensure | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
that the company treats its workers in a more responsible way. Corporate | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
responsibility is something very lacking in companies like INEOS. If | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
there was more a responsibility to their workforce, I think the trade | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
unions would respond in a more responsible way. Thank you all for | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
coming in to speak to us today. Labour won the Scottish Parliament | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
by-election. A 7% swing from the Nationalists. What does this tell us | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
about the political education in Scotland? If it's just a blip for | :52:23. | :52:32. | |
Alex Salmond? Labour has been the dominant force | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
in Dunfermline since the creation of the Scottish parliament, but that | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
hold was broken in 2011 when Bill Walker secured a victory for the | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
SNP. This week's by-election was | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
triggered by his resignation after he was thrown out by his party and | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
jailed for domestic abuse. It was a campaign fought on local issues, not | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
least proposed school closures. The SNP had the best-known candidate and | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
focused on national policies like the council tax freeze. But mid-term | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
votes tend to be unkind to those in government, and so it was in | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
Dunfermline. The SNP's share of the vote fell by 7%, the Lib Dems were | :53:18. | :53:28. | |
down 8%. Labour's candidate, she claimed her victory reflected the | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
public's frustration with the referendum campaign. | :53:33. | :53:42. | |
I will repay your trust in me after the disgrace of Bill Walker, | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
Dunfermline deserves better and I will ensure that we will be far | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
better than what went before. Dunfermline has sent a message to | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
Alex Salmond, it is time for you to concentrate on the real priorities | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
of Scottish people not your constitutional obsession. That is a | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
sentiment shared by her party's leadership. But what does the | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
success mean for the bigger battles which lie ahead? | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
The leader of Scottish Labour is with me now. Let me ask you about | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
Grangemouth, as we were discussing that. How well did Scottish | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
ministers handle the situation? I was very pleased the Scottish and UK | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
government came together to solve this problem. At the very heart of | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
this was a workforce and community in shock and treated very badly. I | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
was very glad the government came together to secure the jobs for | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
those people and their families and the broader UK economy. If I was in | :54:46. | :54:54. | |
the privilege -- privileged position of government my focus would have | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
been on the implications for those families and the Scottish economy. | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
We would work to do whatever we could to make sure those jobs were | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
secure. As regards the situation which has emerged which started with | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
Stephen Denes and his role in the Falkirk selection. There is a | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
newspaper story today which said e-mails have been handed in to the | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
police suggesting dirty tricks in terms of getting people to withdraw | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
allegations, is it time for Ed Miliband to look into this again? I | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
have not seen the e-mails, but if they are serious allegations they | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
need to be looked at. I'm determined to make sure we look at an open | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
process for selection and select a candidate who will represent labour | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
and stand up for the people of Falkirk. That needs to be the focus | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
in the coming period. Where the process is wrong up until now? The | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
investigation by the party looked at the scale of the challenge. People | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
were expressing concerns about Falkirk, and I'm determined the | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
Labour Party is open and transparent. It is not a plaything | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
of individual groupings. The message for me is that if anyone believes | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
the big battle in the Labour Party is to get selected, they are sending | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
out the wrong message. You cannot presume people's support. I am | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
determined we are very clear, the main thing we do is go out to speak | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
to people, listen to their concerns and stand up for them. Any | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
presumption we take the voters for granted is entirely unacceptable. | :56:35. | :56:42. | |
You one in Dunfermline, but if that was replicated across Scotland you | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
still would not be able to overturn the SNP's majority. In your desire | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
to be First Minister and for your party to lead this country, do you | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
accept it might take two general elections to do that? There is this | :57:00. | :57:07. | |
recognition, even with a 7% swing, that perhaps we would almost be the | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
biggest party. It tells us that scale of the challenge ahead of us. | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
We have made very good progress from a very difficult stage. I said the | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
Labour Party would change, we would win back the support of the people | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
of Scotland. That is a work in progress. I am not complacent about | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
this. We will be credible and competitive, and Alex Salmond may, | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
through arithmetic, establish you doing OK. What he is doing is | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
ignoring the mesh -- the message being given to him. People are | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
concerned Alex Salmond is not representing and doing his job. | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
By-elections rarely changed anything, and the most recent poll | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
showed 57% support for the first in a strand the government in what they | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
are doing. Even at this stage they seem to be doing well in the eyes of | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
the public. It does not feel like that to me. The SNP have failed to | :58:09. | :58:19. | |
win any by-elections since 2012. The people of Scotland are saying to | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
Alex Salmond, do your day job. Tell us what you think about | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
independence, but at the same time, what can you do in terms of creating | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
economic opportunities? What can you be doing about making our education | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
system better? What can you do about the care situation with too many | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
people left isolated in their own home? Can people legitimately say of | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
you and your party, we know what you are against? You are against | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
independence, the bedroom tax, what are you for? We have a long process | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
to go through. It is about rebuilding trust. We do need to talk | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
much more positively about the kind of Scotland we want to see. What are | :59:07. | :59:14. | |
the issues you are for? Education and opportunity. The fact that too | :59:15. | :59:21. | |
many of our young people's life decisions are determined by a young | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
age. What is happening in terms of colleges and carer. These are big | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
issues we could be addressing cross party in Scottish Parliament right | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
now. Unfortunately everything is seen through the frame of | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
independence. As we come towards a 2016 election there will be very | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
specific things we will be talking about. What I am determined is that | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
my view and vision of Scotland have two relate to what people's lives | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
are alike. It will not be a trading of slogans, it will be how we make | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
sure our young people get the best education. How do we stop the | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
attacks on further education, and how do we ensure our health and | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
social care Airbuses mean people are treated with dignity. Given what use | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
said said in the past about universal benefits, people might | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
have been confused by the leaflet you put during the Dunfermline | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
by-election where you said you supported the scrapping of | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
prescription charges. Labour supports the free bus passes. Labour | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
supports the tax freeze. It is a reflection of the cartoon politics | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
we are living with that their SNP misrepresent what Labour has said. I | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
have never said that some people get something for nothing. I have said | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
you have to look both at what you spend money on and what are the | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
consequences of that. It is not acceptable to say free personal care | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
when people are living with the experience of less than 15 minute | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
visits. I want to sustain public services and we need to have a | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
debate about that. I am in the same place in that debate as many others, | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
as John Swinney himself said in private. How do you see the council | :01:07. | :01:19. | |
tax freeze? He is a respected academic. Do you agree with his | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
findings? We will of course look at the report. But your leaflet says | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
labour supports the council tax freeze, he says it is an inefficient | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
use of public funds. Up until 2017 local authorities made commitments | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
to have a council tax freeze. First of all, the council tax freeze is | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
underfunded. John Swinney has attacked local government then | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
condemns local government for making cuts. Secondly we know that the | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
council tax is discredited. I would hope that a cross-party we could | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
have a discussion about how we properly fund local government. Are | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
you talking about a change to the council tax? There is a huge | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
challenge. People do not want to pay their council tax. Is labour working | :02:10. | :02:21. | |
on an alternative? The prize cross-party is to understand that | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
people really care about their local services. We know the funding of | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
them is not sustainable. I want a discussion, not where the parties | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
get dividing lines between each other, but come together and address | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
the challenge of how do you properly build a confidence in the way in | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
which you raise taxes locally in order to ensure our schools are well | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
equipped and our young people are properly educated. Thank you for | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
joining us this afternoon. Still to come, a look at the week | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
ahead. You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Here is the news. | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
Good afternoon. Two former senior police officers have clashed over | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
security implications in independent Scotland. Graeme Pearson, former | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
head of the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency there's effective | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
working is easier as part of the UK. Allan Burnett, he says a Scottish | :03:25. | :03:36. | |
intelligence agency could do better. Eight people have been rescued | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
following a fire in the East End of Glasgow. Emergency crews were called | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
to the Dennistoun area just before 1:30am. The residents, including two | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
children, were taken off the fifth floor by firefighters. A further 33 | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
people were evacuated from the building, no one was injured. | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
Good afternoon, a rather wet look to the afternoon. Some places seeing | :04:03. | :04:12. | |
good spells, but a fair few showers across western parts. One or two | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
showers making it through eastwards. It will be quite windy across | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
central and southern parts of the wind following across northern areas | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
as the day progresses. Temperatures around 11-12dC at best. | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
That is it for the moment. In the moment we will be discussing | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
the events coming up at Holyrood. Almost half of Edinburgh's licensed | :04:41. | :04:57. | |
saunas are to close after reset city refused to grant them licences. | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
The closure of a chemical firm in Paisley. | :05:03. | :05:14. | |
The Scottish Housing regulator says housing arrears have increased since | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
the bedroom tax was abolished. A former Liberal Democrat MP has | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
taken his seat in the House of Lords. Jeremy Purvis will now set as | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
Lord Purvis of Tweed. The cost of fuel bills raised the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
temperature in the House of Commons. I want better regulation | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
and deals for consumers. ScottishPower are one of the latest | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
firms to announce price rises. Finally, Jack Straw is to stand down | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
as an MP at the next general election. | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
So, if that was the week that was, let's turn our attention to the Week | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
Ahead. My guests today, Alan Roden, | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
Political Editor for the Daily Mail here in Scotland and the freelance | :06:06. | :06:14. | |
journalist Pennie Taylor. Let's take a look through a couple of the | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
stories in the newspapers. Lots of coverage of Grangemouth with the | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
Sunday Herald saying there are details of the secret deal done by | :06:24. | :06:32. | |
Alex Salmond to save Grangemouth. He had a secret meeting to see if | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
another company could purchase the plant. There seems to be praise for | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
the first Minister's handling of the situation. He is dealing with the | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
day-to-day issues of a crisis like this. He put the constitutional | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
argument on hold for a few days but was helped by the UK government in | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
this. This proves we are Better Together know with both sides coming | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
together to encourage this deal. Neither side was making political | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
points and seemed to be coming together for the national interest. | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
They definitely seems to have taken that decision to leave the | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
referendum to one side. Looking at the coverage in the papers today and | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
through the week, Alex Salmond has come out of it very much the vector, | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
the white hat, if you like. How did the workers come out of it? They are | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
immensely relieved and I find it personally astonishing that people | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
can say it is the media's fault that the union movement has come out of | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
this badly, because I think all the coverage through the week would | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
indicate that the Utah that the union made was one that the workers | :07:54. | :08:05. | |
wanted. -- U-turn. How do Ineos look at the end of this week? The union | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
where worse by far. The mess this up and let the workers almost over the | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
cliff and need to have a look at themselves and learn some lessons | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
because I do not think workers will thank the union for what has | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
happened. I would suggest the events of this week show more than ever | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
that we need a strong union movement in Scotland to represent the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
interests of workers up against companies like Ineos but the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
implication is we need intelligent union intervention and not the kind | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
of macho approach we have seen this layout. Dennis Canon felt the union | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
were working with one hand behind their back. -- Dennis Canavan. If | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
there's ever a time when you need a union that is level-headed, this was | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
then but instead they read from the 1970s textbook and went ahead with | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
the barnstorming approach that did not work out and have left the | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
workers in a much worse situation. Let me turn to the Sunday express or | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
have an interesting story saying the first Minister was the result of -- | :09:24. | :09:36. | |
recipient of US phone bugging. The suggestion is that America seems to | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
know in advance of the announcement being made a couple of years ago | :09:41. | :09:50. | |
that Al-Megrahi was being released. I think if I was Alex Salmond I | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
would feel proud to be worthy of being bugged by the Americans. If | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
the new, what I don't understand is what difference it made to any | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
outcome, what is the point? Forewarned is forearmed but it seems | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
to be a widespread practice? There's some wishful thinking with the idea | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
that Alex Salmond is in the top 35 world leaders is ridiculous, but it | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
is going to dominate issues in Europe for the week ahead. A | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
brand-new MSP being sworn in on Thursday. What do you make of the | :10:32. | :10:42. | |
Rectory in Baz Luhrmann? -- victory in Dunfermline. It is the second | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
biggest majority Labour has in Hollywood now. They are undoubtedly | :10:49. | :10:58. | |
had the best campaign. The first Minister himself took to the streets | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
on the final day but they still lost heavily. There were special | :11:02. | :11:10. | |
circumstances surrounding this and it is always difficult to read too | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
much into a by-election. They always say you cannot draw a conclusion | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
about the referendum from a by-election result but I imagine | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
Grangemouth, not too far from Dunfermline, will have had in impact | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
on how people voted that day. The interesting impact for me was the | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
growth of UKIP. That causes me some pause for reflection. They got twice | :11:44. | :11:53. | |
as many votes as the Greens got. UKIP are not the political force in | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
Scotland as in England but they will dominate the agenda down south and | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
they could scrape in with an MEP in Scotland. They are on course to save | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
their deposit sometimes. The Liberal Democrat vote went down | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
substantially. It does not look as if there's any resurgence for them | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
any soon? They are going nowhere and Willie Rennie was very popular in | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
that area but it did not translate into votes. That seems to be the | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
picture, that people are still unhappy about being in coalition? I | :12:35. | :12:44. | |
think very much so, across Scotland, it is anecdotal that people who | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
voted Liberal Democrat are feeling pretty much betrayed. | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
What about the Conservatives? They will point to the vote going up by | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
1% with the turnout of 42%, which is not very many votes. Is there any | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
sign they are doing anything other than flat-lining? Ruth Davidson is | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
doing a decent job but they are going nowhere and are continuing. | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
Success for higher will be doubling the seats and going from one to two | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
but anything other than that will be a disaster. Do either of you get any | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
sense about what this can tell us about the referendum? It will be a | :13:30. | :13:38. | |
clash between the Scottish Titans. Although Labour are saying this was | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
partly a rejection of independence, it did not feel like that. The SNP, | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
who have a formidable election machine, they knew not to discuss | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
that. They talked about local schools which is a massive issue in | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Dunfermline. They could have done a lot better. | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
Thank you to you both. That's all from us - I'll be back at the usual | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
time next week. Just before we go, a reminder of Newsnight Scotland's | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
special debate tomorrow with a look at higher education in the context | :14:15. | :14:16. | |
of the referendum. Goodbye. | :14:17. | :14:19. |