27/10/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


27/10/2013

Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With Lord Heseltine and shadow energy secretary Caroline Flint.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Hope you enjoyed

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the extra hour in bed and that you've realise it's not quarter to

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one. It's quarter to 12! It's getting stormy outside. But

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they're already battening down the hatches at Number ten because

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coalition splits are back, with bust-ups over free schools and power

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bills. We'll speak to the Lib Dems and ask Labour who's conning whom

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over energy. EU leaders have been meeting in

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Brussels. But how's David Cameron getting on with that plan to change

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our relationship with Europe. We were there to ask him.

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Have we got any powers back yet? Foreign companies own everything

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from our energy companies to our railways. Does it matter who owns

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our businesses? Union boss Bob Crow and venture capitalist Julie Meyer

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go head to head. And here on Sunday Politics

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Scotland. More on the questions surrounding the role unions play in

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today's workforce - could this week's events at Grangemouth signal

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a sea change? pace?

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And with me, three journalists who've bravely agreed to hunker down

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in the studio while Britain braces itself for massive storm winds,

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tweeting their political forecasts with all the accuracy of Michael

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Fish on hurricane watch. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt.

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Now, sometimes coalition splits are over-egged, or dare we say even

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occasionally stage-managed. But this week, we've seen what looks like the

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genuine article. It turns out Nick Clegg has his doubts about the

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coalition's flagship free schools policy. David Cameron doesn't much

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like the green levies on our energy bills championed by the Lib Dems.

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Neither of them seems to have bothered to tell the other that they

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had their doubts. Who better to discuss these flare-ups than Lib Dem

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Deputy Leader Simon Hughes? He joins me now. Welcome. Good morning. The

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Lib Dems spent three years of sticking up for the coalition when

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times were grim. Explain to me the logic of splitting from them when

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times look better. We will stick with it for five years. It is

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working arrangement, but not surprisingly, where there right

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areas on which we disagree over where to go next, we will stand up.

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It is going to be hard enough for the Lib Dems to get any credit for

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the recovery, what ever it is. It will be even harder if you seem to

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be semidetached and picky. The coalition has led on economic

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policy, some of which were entirely from our stable. The one you have

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heard about most often, a Lib Dem initiative, was to take people on

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blowing comes out of tax. The recovery would not have happened,

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there would not have been confidence in Britain, had there not been a

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coalition government with us in it, making sure the same policies

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produced fair outcomes. We are not going to leave the credit for any

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growth - and there has been very good news this week. We have played

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a part in that, and without us, it would not have happened. Does it not

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underline the trust problem you have? You promised to abolish

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tuition fees. You oppose nuclear power, now you are cheerleading the

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first multi-billion pounds investment in nuclear generation.

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You are dying out on your enthusiasm on green levies, and now they are up

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for renegotiation. Why should we trust a word you say? In relation to

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green levies, as you well know, just under 10% is to do with helping

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energy and helping people. Unless there is continuing investment in

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renewables, we will not have the British produced energy at cheaper

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cost to keep those bills down in the future. At cheaper cost? Explain

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that to me. Off-shore energy is twice the market rate. The costs of

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renewables will increasingly come down. We have fantastic capacity to

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produce the energy and deliver lots of jobs in the process. The parts of

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the energy bill that may be up for renegotiation seems to be the part

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where we subsidise to help either poor people pay less, or where we do

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other things. Too insulated the homes? Are you up to putting that to

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general taxation? Wouldn't that be progressive? I would. It would be

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progressive. I would like to do for energy bills what the Chancellor has

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done for road traffic users, drivers, which is too fuelled motor

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fuel -- to freeze new to fall. That would mean there would be an

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immediate relief this year, not waiting for the election. So there

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is a deal to be done there? Yes. We understand we have to take the

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burden off the consumer, and also deal with the energy companies, who

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look as if they are not paying all the tax they should be, and the

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regulator, which doesn't regulate quickly enough to deal with the

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issues coming down the track. We can toughen the regulator, and I hope

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that the Chancellor, in the Autumn statement, was signalled that energy

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companies will not be allowed to get away with not paying the taxes they

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should. And this deal will allow energy prices to come down? Yes. How

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could David Laws, one of your ministers, proudly defend the record

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of unqualified teachers working in free schools, and then stand

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side-by-side with Mr Clegg, as he says he is against them? David Laws

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was not proudly defending the fact that it is unqualified teachers. He

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said that some of the new, unqualified teachers in free schools

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are doing a superb job. But you want to get rid of them? We want to make

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sure that everybody coming into a free school ends up being qualified.

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Ends up? Goes through a process that means they have qualifications. Just

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as we said very clearly at the last election that the manifesto

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curriculum in free schools should be the same as other schools. It looks

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like Mr Clegg is picking a fight just for the sake of it. Mr Clegg

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was taught by people who didn't have teaching qualifications in one of

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the greatest schools in the land, if not the world. It didn't seem to do

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him any harm. What is the problem? If you pay to go to a school, you

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know what you're getting. But that is what a free school is. No, you

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don't pay fees. A free school is parents taking the decisions, not

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you, the politicians. We believe they would expect to guarantee is,

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firstly that the minimum curriculum taught across the country is taught

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in the free schools, and secondly, that the teachers there are

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qualified. Someone who send their kids to private schools took a

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decision to take -- to send their children there, even if the teachers

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were unqualified, because they are experts in their field. Someone who

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send their kids to free schools is because -- is their decision, not

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yours. Because some of the free schools are new, and have never been

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there before, parents need a guarantee that there are some basics

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in place, whatever sort of school. So they need you to hold their hand?

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It is not about holding hands, it is about having a minimum guarantee.

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Our party made clear at our conference that this is a priority

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for us. Nick Clegg reflects the view of the party, and I believe it is an

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entirely rational thing to do. Nick Clegg complained that the Prime

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Minister gave him only 30 minutes notice on the Prime Minister Buzz 's

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U-turn on green levies. That is almost as little time as Nick Clegg

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gave the Prime Minister on his U-turn on free schools. Aren't you

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supposed to be partners? Green levies were under discussion in the

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ministerial group before Wednesday, because we identified this as an

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issue. We do that in a practical way. Sometimes there is only half an

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hour's notice. We had even less than half an hour this morning! Simon

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Hughes, thank you. So the price of energy is the big

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battle ground in politics at the moment. 72% of people say that high

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bills will influence the way they vote at the next election. Ed

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Miliband has promised a price freeze after the next election, but will

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the coalition turned the tables on Labour, with its proposal to roll

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back green levies. Caroline Flint joins us from Sheffield. It looks

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like the coalition will be able to take ?50 of energy bills, by

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removing green levies. It is quite clear that different parts of the

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government are running round waking up to the fact that the public feel

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that this government has not done enough to listen to their concerns.

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Last week, there was a classic case of the Prime Minister making up

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policy literally at the dispatch box. Let's see what they say in the

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autumn statement. The truth is, whatever the debate around green

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levies, and I have always said we should look at value for money at

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those green levies. Our argument is about acknowledging there is

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something wrong with the way the market works, and the way those

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companies are regulated. Behind our freeze for 20 months is a package of

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proposals to reform this market. I understand that, but you cannot tell

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as the details about that. I can. You cannot give us the details about

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reforming the market. We are going to do three things, and I think I

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said this last time I was on the programme. First, we are going to

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separate out the generation side from the supply side within the big

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six. Secondly, we will have a energy pool, or power exchange, where all

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energy will have to be traded in that pool. Thirdly, we will

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establish a tougher regulator, because Ofgem is increasingly being

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seen as not doing the job right. I notice that you didn't mention any

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reform of the current green and social taxes on the energy bill. Is

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it Labour's policy to maintain the existing green levies? In 2011, the

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government chose to get rid of warm front, which was the publicly funded

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through tracks a scheme to support new installation. When they got rid

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of that, it was the first time we had a government since the 70s that

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didn't have such a policy. What is your policy? We voted against that

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because we believe it is wrong. We believe that the eco-scheme, a

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government intervention which is ?47 of the ?112 on our bills each year,

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is expensive, bureaucratic and isn't going to the fuel poor. I am up for

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a debate on these issues. I am up for a discussion on what the

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government should do and what these energy companies should do. We

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cannot let Cameron all the energy companies off the hook from the way

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in which they organise their businesses, and expect us to pay

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ever increasing rises in our bills. There is ?112 of green levies on our

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bills at the moment. Did you vote against any of them? We didn't, but

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what I would say ease these were government imposed levies. When they

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got rid of the government funded programme, Warm Front, they

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introduced the eco-scheme. The eco-project is one of the ones where

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the energy companies are saying, it's too bureaucratic, and it is

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proving more expensive than government estimates, apparently

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doubled the amount the government thought. These things are all worth

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looking at, but don't go to the heart of the issue. According to

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official figures, on current plans, which you support, which you voted

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for, households will be paying 41% more per unit of electricity by

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2030. It puts your temporary freeze as just a blip. You support a 41%

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rise in our bills. I support making sure we secure for the future access

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to energy that we can grow here in the UK, whether it is through

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nuclear, wind or solar, or other technologies yet to be developed. We

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should protect ourselves against energy costs we cannot control. The

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truth is, it is every fair for you to put that point across, and I

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accept that, but we need to hear the other side about the cost for bill

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payers if we didn't invest in new, indigenous sources of energy supply

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for the future, which, in the long run, will be cheaper and more

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secure, and create the jobs we need. I think it is important to

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have a debate about these issues, but they have to be seen in the

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right context. If we stay stuck in the past, we will pay more and we

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will not create jobs. How can you criticise the coalition's plans for

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a new nuclear station, when jeering 13 years of a Labour government, you

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did not invest in a single nuclear plant? You sold off all our nuclear

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technology to foreign companies. Energy provision was put out to

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private hands and there has been no obstacle in British law against

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ownership outside the UK. Part of this is looking ahead. Because your

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previous track record is so bad? What we did decide under the

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previous government, we came to the view, and there were discussions in

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our party about this, that we did need to support a nuclear future.

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At the time of that, David Cameron was one of those saying that

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nuclear power should be a last resort. And as you said, the

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Liberals did not support it. We stood up for that. We set in train

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the green light of 10 sites, including Hinkley Point, for

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nuclear development. I am glad to see that is making progress and we

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should make more progress over the years ahead. We took a tough

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decision when other governments had not done. You did not build a new

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nuclear station. When you get back into power, will you build HS2?

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That has not had a blank cheque from the Labour Party. I am in

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favour of good infrastructure. Are you in favour of?, answer the

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question? I have answered the question. It does not have a blank

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cheque. If the prices are too high, we will review the decision when we

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come back to vote on it. We will be looking at it closely. We have to

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look for value for money and how it benefits the country. Have you

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stocked up on jumpers this winter? I am perfectly all right with my

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clothing. What is important, it is ridiculous for the Government to

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suggest that the answer to the loss of trust in the energy companies is

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to put on another jumper. The coalition has taken a long time

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to come up with anything that can trump Ed Miliband's simple freezing

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energy prices, vote for us. Are they on the brink of doing so? I do

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not think so. They have had a problem that has dominated the

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debate, talking about GDP, the figures came out on Friday and said,

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well, and went back to talking about energy. My problem with what

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David Cameron proposes is he agrees with the analysis that the Big Six

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make too many profits. He wants to move the green levies into general

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taxation, so that he looks like he is protecting the profits of the

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energy companies. If the coalition can say they will take money off

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the bills, does that change the game? I do not think the Liberal

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Democrats are an obstacle to unwinding the green levies. I think

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Nick Clegg is open to doing a deal, but the real obstacle is the carbon

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reduction targets that we signed up to during the boom years. They were

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ambitious I thought at the time. From that we have the taxes and

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clocking up of the supply-side of the economy. Unless he will revise

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that, and build from first principles a new strategy, he

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cannot do more than put a dent into green levies. He might say as I

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have got to ?50 now and if you voters in in an overall majority, I

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will look up what we have done in the better times and give you more.

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I am sure he will do that. It might be ?50 of the Bill, but it will be

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?50 on your general taxation bill, which would be more progressive.

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They will find it. We will never see it in general taxation. The

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problem for the Coalition on what Ed Miliband has done is that it is

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five weeks since he made that speech and it is all we are talking

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about. David Cameron spent those five weeks trying to work out

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whether Ed Miliband is a Marxist or whether he is connected to Middle

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Britain. That is why Ed Miliband set the agenda. The coalition are

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squabbling among themselves, looking petulant, on energy, and on

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schools. Nobody is taking notice of the fact the economy is under way,

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the recovery is under way. Ed Miliband has made the weather on

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this. It UK has a relaxed attitude about

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selling off assets based -- to companies based abroad. But this

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week we have seen the Swiss owner of one of Scotland's largest

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industrial sites, Grangemouth, come within a whisker of closing part of

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it down. So should we care whether British assets have foreign owners?

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Britain might be a nation of homeowners, but we appear to have

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lost our taste for owning some of our biggest businesses. These are

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among the crown jewels sold off in the past three decades to companies

:20:31.:20:38.

based abroad. Roughly half of Britain's essential services have

:20:39.:20:40.

overseas owners. The airport owner, British Airports Authority, is

:20:41.:20:42.

owned by a Spanish company. Britain's largest water company,

:20:43.:20:45.

Thames, is owned by a consortium led by an Australian bank. Four out

:20:46.:20:48.

of six of Britain's biggest energy companies are owned by overseas

:20:49.:20:51.

giants, and one of these, EDF Energy, which is owned by the

:20:52.:20:54.

French state, is building Britain's first nuclear power plant in a

:20:55.:20:56.

generation, backed by Chinese investors. It's a similar story for

:20:57.:21:04.

train operator Arriva, bought by a company owned by the German state.

:21:05.:21:09.

So part of the railways privatised by the British government was

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effectively re-nationalised by the German government. But does it

:21:13.:21:21.

matter who owns these companies, as long as the lights stay on, the

:21:22.:21:24.

trains run on time, and we can still eat Cadbury's Dairy Milk?

:21:25.:21:31.

We are joined by the general secretary of the RMT, Bob Crow, and

:21:32.:21:36.

by venture capitalist Julie Meyer. They go head to head.

:21:37.:21:43.

Have we seen the consequences of relying for essential services to

:21:44.:21:49.

be foreign-owned? Four of the Big Six energy companies, Grangemouth,

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owned by a tax exile in Switzerland. It is not good. I do not think

:21:56.:22:02.

there is a cause and effect relationship between foreign

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ownership and consumer prices. That is not the right comparison. We

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need to be concerned about businesses represented the future,

:22:12.:22:15.

businesses we are good at innovating for example in financial

:22:16.:22:19.

services and the UK has a history of building businesses, such as

:22:20.:22:26.

Monotypes. If we were not creating businesses here -- Monotise. Like

:22:27.:22:36.

so many businesses creating products and services and creating

:22:37.:22:46.

the shareholders. Should we allow hour essential services to be in

:22:47.:22:52.

foreign ownership? It was demonstrated this week at

:22:53.:22:55.

Grangemouth. If you do not own the industry, you do not own it. The

:22:56.:23:00.

MPs of this country and the politicians in Scotland have no say,

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they were consultants. Multinationals decide whether to

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shut a company down. If that had been Unite union, they are the ones

:23:12.:23:15.

who saved the jobs. They capitulated. They will come back,

:23:16.:23:21.

like they have for the past 150 years, and capture again what they

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lost. If it had closed, they would have lost their jobs for ever. If

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the union had called the members up without a ballot for strike action,

:23:33.:23:37.

there would have been uproar. This person in Switzerland can decide to

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shut the entire industry down. The coalition, the Labour Party, as

:23:42.:23:47.

well, when Labour was in government, they played a role of allowing

:23:48.:23:52.

industries to go abroad, and it should be returned to public

:23:53.:24:04.

ownership. Nestor. It has demonstrated that the Net comes

:24:05.:24:12.

from new businesses. We must not be... When Daly motion was stopped

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by the French government to be sold, it was an arrow to the heart of

:24:19.:24:23.

French entrepreneurs. We must not create that culture in the UK.

:24:24.:24:27.

Every train running in France is built in France. 90% of the trains

:24:28.:24:31.

running in Germany are built in Germany. In Japan, it has to be

:24:32.:24:42.

built in that country, and now an energy company in France is

:24:43.:24:46.

reducing its nuclear capability in its own country and wants to make

:24:47.:24:50.

profits out of the British industry to put back into it state industry.

:24:51.:24:54.

That happened with the railway industry. They want to make money

:24:55.:24:58.

at the expense of their own state companies. We sold off energy

:24:59.:25:09.

production. How did we end up in a position where our nuclear capacity

:25:10.:25:14.

will be built by a company owned by a socialist date, France, and

:25:15.:25:17.

funded by a communist one, China, for vital infrastructure? I am not

:25:18.:25:26.

suggesting that is in the national interest. I am saying we can pick

:25:27.:25:30.

any one example and say it is a shame. The simple matter of the

:25:31.:25:35.

fact is the owners are having to make decisions. Not just

:25:36.:25:39.

Grangemouth, businesses are making decisions about what is the common

:25:40.:25:44.

good. Not just in the shareholders' interest. For employees, customers.

:25:45.:25:50.

What is in the common good when prices go up by 10% and the reason

:25:51.:25:55.

is that 20 years ago they shut every coal pit down in this country,

:25:56.:25:59.

the Germans kept theirs open and subsidised it and now we have the

:26:00.:26:02.

Germans doing away with nuclear power and they have coal. Under the

:26:03.:26:11.

Labour government, in 2008, the climate change Act was passed. Well

:26:12.:26:17.

before that, and you know yourself, they shut down the coal mines to

:26:18.:26:21.

smash the National Union of Mineworkers because they dared to

:26:22.:26:25.

stand up for people in their community. Even if we wanted to

:26:26.:26:30.

reopen the coalmines, it would be pointless. Under the 2008 Act, we

:26:31.:26:35.

are not meant to burn more coal. The can, as if you spent some of

:26:36.:26:42.

the profits, you could have carbon catch up. That does not exist on a

:26:43.:26:50.

massive scale. You are arguing the case, Julie Meyer, for

:26:51.:26:54.

entrepreneurs to come to this country. Even Bob Crow is not

:26:55.:26:59.

against that. We are trying to argue, should essential services be

:27:00.:27:06.

in foreign hands? Not those in Silicon round about doing start-ups.

:27:07.:27:13.

I am trying to draw a broader principle than just energy.

:27:14.:27:18.

Something like broadband services, also important to the functioning

:27:19.:27:24.

of the economy. I believe in the UK's ability to innovate. When we

:27:25.:27:29.

have businesses that play off broadband companies to get the best

:27:30.:27:34.

prices for consumers. These new businesses and business models are

:27:35.:27:40.

the best way. Not to control, but to influence. It will be a disaster.

:27:41.:27:46.

Prices will go up and up as a result. Nissan in Sunderland, a

:27:47.:27:52.

Japanese factory, some of the best cars and productivity. You want

:27:53.:27:56.

that to be nationalised and bring it down to the standard of British

:27:57.:28:01.

Leyland? It is not bring it down to the standard. The car manufacturing

:28:02.:28:04.

base in this country has been wrecked. We make more cars now for

:28:05.:28:12.

20 years -- than in 20 years. Ford's Dagenham produced some of

:28:13.:28:17.

the best cars in the world. Did you buy one? I cannot drive. They moved

:28:18.:28:24.

their plants to other countries, where it was cheaper labour. Would

:28:25.:28:30.

you nationalise Nissan? There should be one car industry that

:28:31.:28:36.

produces cars for people. This week the EU summit was about Angela

:28:37.:28:40.

Merkel's mobile phone being tapped, they call it a handy. We sent Adam

:28:41.:28:49.

to Brussels and told him to ignore the business about phone-tapping

:28:50.:28:52.

and investigate the Prime Minister's policy on Europe instead.

:28:53.:29:02.

I have come to my first EU summit to see how David Cameron is getting on

:29:03.:29:11.

with his strategy to claim power was back from Brussels. Got any powers

:29:12.:29:20.

back yet? Yes! Which ones? Sadly, his fellow leaders were not as

:29:21.:29:25.

forthcoming. Chancellor, are you going to give any powers back to

:29:26.:29:31.

Britain? Has David Cameron asked you for any powers back? The president

:29:32.:29:35.

of the commission just laughed, and listen to the Lithuanian President.

:29:36.:29:44.

How is David Cameron's renegotiation strategy going? What's that? He

:29:45.:29:54.

wants powers back for Britain. No one knows what powers David Cameron

:29:55.:29:58.

actually wants. Even our usual allies, like Sweden, are bit

:29:59.:30:06.

baffled. We actually don't know yet what is going through the UK

:30:07.:30:12.

membership. We will await the finalisation of that first. You

:30:13.:30:18.

should ask him, and then tell us! Here is someone who must know, the

:30:19.:30:23.

Dutch Prime Minister, he is doing what we are doing, carrying out a

:30:24.:30:29.

review of the EU powers, known as competencies in the jargon, before

:30:30.:30:34.

negotiating to get some back. Have you had any negotiations with David

:30:35.:30:37.

Cameron over what powers you can bring back from Brussels? That is

:30:38.:30:44.

not on the agenda of this summit. Have you talked to him about it?

:30:45.:30:49.

This is not on the schedule for this summit.

:30:50.:30:55.

David Cameron's advises tummy it is because he is playing the long game.

:30:56.:31:05.

-- David Cameron's advisers tell me. At this summit, there was a task

:31:06.:31:11.

force discussing how to cut EU red tape. Just how long this game is was

:31:12.:31:18.

explained to me outside the summit, by the leader of the Conservatives

:31:19.:31:24.

in the European Parliament. I think the behind-the-scenes negotiations

:31:25.:31:28.

will start happening when the new commissioner is appointed later next

:31:29.:31:31.

year. I think the detailed negotiations will start to happen

:31:32.:31:36.

bubbly after the UK general election. That is when we will start

:31:37.:31:40.

getting all of the detail of the horse trading, and real, Lake night

:31:41.:31:49.

negotiations. Angela Merkel seems keen to rewrite the EU's main

:31:50.:31:53.

treaties to deal with changes in the Eurozone, and that is the mechanism

:31:54.:31:58.

David Cameron would use to renegotiate our membership. Everyone

:31:59.:32:02.

here says his relationship with the German Chancellor is strong. So

:32:03.:32:06.

after days in this building, here is how it looks. David Cameron has a

:32:07.:32:12.

mountain to climb. It is climbable, but he isn't even in the foothills

:32:13.:32:16.

yet. Has he even started packing his bags for the trip?

:32:17.:32:21.

Joining us now, a man who knows a thing or two about the difficulties

:32:22.:32:29.

Prime Minister 's face in Europe. Former Deputy Prime Minister,

:32:30.:32:32.

Michael Heseltine. We are nine months from David Cameron's defining

:32:33.:32:37.

speech on EU renegotiation. Can you think of one area of progress? I

:32:38.:32:43.

don't know. And you don't know. And that's a good thing. Why is it a

:32:44.:32:51.

good thing? Because the real progress goes on behind closed

:32:52.:33:02.

doors. And only the most naive, because the real progress goes on

:33:03.:33:04.

behind You are much better off making

:33:05.:33:33.

progress the best you can in the privacy. It is a long journey ahead.

:33:34.:33:41.

Do you have a clear sense of the destination? No. I have a clear

:33:42.:33:53.

sense of the destination which is the victor the key will win to stay

:33:54.:34:03.

inside the European community. I of course have total support for that.

:34:04.:34:10.

If he is incapable of getting any tangible sign of the negotiation and

:34:11.:34:13.

is able to do only what Harold Wilson don't in 1975 which is

:34:14.:34:21.

getting a couple of talking changes, he goes on to the referendum without

:34:22.:34:29.

much to answer for, doesn't he? He has everything to argue for. He has

:34:30.:34:39.

Britain's vital role as a major contributor and beneficiary. He has

:34:40.:34:45.

the vital role of the city of London. He could argue for that now.

:34:46.:34:55.

He doesn't want to have a referendum now and I have no doubt he will come

:34:56.:35:03.

back with something to talk about. It may be slightly different to what

:35:04.:35:12.

his critics, the UK isolationists, want. He may have found allies

:35:13.:35:19.

within the community want change as well. He may secure changes the way

:35:20.:35:30.

the community works, which would be a significant argument within the

:35:31.:35:34.

referendum campaign. As an example, I happen to think it is a scandal

:35:35.:35:39.

the European commission do not secure the auditing of some of the

:35:40.:35:44.

accounts. Perhaps that could be on the agenda. He might find a lot of

:35:45.:35:49.

contributing countries, like Germany and Holland, might be very keen. We

:35:50.:36:00.

saw the other day he vetoed the increase in the European budget and

:36:01.:36:06.

he had a lot of allies, so working within Europe or the things the

:36:07.:36:10.

people want is fertile ground in my view.

:36:11.:36:15.

Is John Major right to call for a windfall tax on the energy

:36:16.:36:21.

companies? Here's a very cautious Philip Hollobone does not say things

:36:22.:36:28.

thinking about. -- -- cautious fellow. It is pretty difficult to

:36:29.:36:35.

predict what the consequences would be. I am myself more interested in

:36:36.:36:42.

the other part of his speech which was speaking about the need for the

:36:43.:36:47.

Conservatives to seek a wider horizon and recognise what is

:36:48.:36:52.

happening to the party and the way in which its membership is

:36:53.:36:58.

shrinking. I take it you are not for a windfall tax? I am not in favour

:36:59.:37:06.

of increasing taxes anywhere. Do you shear scepticism on Iain Duncan

:37:07.:37:11.

Smith's ability to succeed with welfare reform? I think he is right

:37:12.:37:21.

and I indeed wrote a pamphlet in the 1980s called no place for hostages

:37:22.:37:24.

arguing for what he is now trying to do. -- ostriches. He is right to try

:37:25.:37:34.

this and public opinion is behind him but it is not easy because on

:37:35.:37:43.

the fringe of these issues, there are genuine hard luck stories and

:37:44.:37:50.

these are the ones that become the focus for attention and it requires

:37:51.:37:54.

a lot of political skill to negotiate through that. Is he right

:37:55.:38:02.

to invoke the beverage principle that you should be expected to make

:38:03.:38:09.

a contribution? -- Beveridge. We will let you get your Sunday lunch.

:38:10.:38:17.

Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:38:18.:38:29.

programme. Grangemouth over the past week has

:38:30.:38:33.

captivated the country. We will be examining the future role of unions

:38:34.:38:37.

in industrial relations. We'll weigh that up with a panel of people

:38:38.:38:40.

who've discussed and debated the place of unions in Scotland for

:38:41.:38:43.

several decades. And a win in Dunfermline for Scottish Labour -

:38:44.:38:46.

we'll speak to their leader Johann Lamont about how the party plans to

:38:47.:38:49.

capitalise on the victory. Scotland's biggest industrial

:38:50.:38:52.

complex was close to collapse this week, saved at the eleventh hour by

:38:53.:38:55.

the total capitulation of a once powerful, unionised workforce. There

:38:56.:38:58.

were certainly echoes of the 1970s in the Grangemouth dispute, but

:38:59.:39:01.

Unite the union was overwhelmed by the hardline tactics of 21st century

:39:02.:39:06.

mobile capital. Politicians were virtually powerless too in the face

:39:07.:39:10.

of this emerging phenomenon. As Andrew Kerr reports, industrial

:39:11.:39:13.

relations may never be the same again.

:39:14.:39:28.

The spear Grangemouth this week with 800 workers having to tell their

:39:29.:39:31.

families they were probably out of a job. People will probably never

:39:32.:39:37.

forget these events but there's a more positive outcome. A more

:39:38.:39:42.

harmonious relationship has been re-established here at Grangemouth.

:39:43.:39:48.

Really for the workers and now perhaps recriminations against the

:39:49.:39:54.

union. They marched their members up to the top of the hell but had to

:39:55.:40:03.

march back down again. Ineos wanted the other way and were prepared to

:40:04.:40:07.

take the sanction. Those are the methods of multinationals playing a

:40:08.:40:15.

global game. We want to see a long-term future for Grangemouth. We

:40:16.:40:21.

should be talking about them about the levels of long-term investment.

:40:22.:40:30.

Not just intent on a fight. The world has moved on from the 1970s.

:40:31.:40:37.

It certainly has. Look at the deal struck if you can even call it that.

:40:38.:40:42.

They agreed to a three-year pay freeze with no strikes, closure of

:40:43.:40:49.

the final salary pension scheme and no full-time union conveners. The

:40:50.:40:56.

union was over a barrel this week, a far cry from these days. There will

:40:57.:41:02.

be no vandalism, there will be no bevvying! They were dealing with

:41:03.:41:14.

Ineos this time. If they had watched what was happening over the years,

:41:15.:41:18.

this is a business that has had to deal with international bankers and

:41:19.:41:25.

won that round. It clearly was signalling there were problems and

:41:26.:41:29.

we have not been listening hard enough to understand how important

:41:30.:41:33.

it was to accept the changes which are facing most people in Scotland

:41:34.:41:37.

today. Some Labour MPs have been defending the union but whether the

:41:38.:41:44.

tactics were hardline and uncompromising. We can only

:41:45.:41:51.

represent the members we are representing at that time. We had

:41:52.:41:57.

our members faced with three days to make key decisions on really radical

:41:58.:42:06.

changes to terms and conditions. That probably means an emasculated

:42:07.:42:10.

union at Grangemouth but it seems there's still a for them and perhaps

:42:11.:42:18.

one more powerful. Any union has an important part to play and has two

:42:19.:42:23.

learn the lessons of what did not work but I imagine any management

:42:24.:42:27.

would want to make sure of that as well because it is an easy and

:42:28.:42:31.

powerful way to get through to the staff of what needs to happen. I

:42:32.:42:37.

imagine they will want to make union relationships work as well. Jim

:42:38.:42:43.

Ratcliffe has called for the UK to the former Labour relations. The

:42:44.:42:51.

question now is how many other employers have been watching this

:42:52.:42:55.

dispute with interest wondering how far they can now push the unions.

:42:56.:42:58.

Joining me now in the studio to discuss the fall out from last weeks

:42:59.:43:01.

events - former Falkirk West Labour MP and later, Independent MSP,

:43:02.:43:05.

Dennis Canavan and Chris Bartter who was with Unison Scotland for 20

:43:06.:43:08.

years. And in our Edinburgh studio, Alan Cochrane, Scottish Editor of

:43:09.:43:11.

the Daily Telegraph. Good afternoon. As the dust settles,

:43:12.:43:22.

who was to blame? Now was not the time for recriminations. I had the

:43:23.:43:26.

privilege of representing the Falkirk area for over 30 years and

:43:27.:43:32.

many of my former constituents are employed at Grangemouth. They are

:43:33.:43:38.

not militant extremists. Where they misled? I do not like the way they

:43:39.:43:47.

and the trade union movement have been demonised by certain elements

:43:48.:43:51.

in the media and certain politicians. These people by and

:43:52.:43:57.

large are responsible citizens and employees and trade unionists. I

:43:58.:44:05.

think the officials of the trade union in retrospect could say things

:44:06.:44:10.

should have been handled better. That is all well in hindsight but

:44:11.:44:14.

they were up against a ruthless and intransigent employer who was not

:44:15.:44:20.

coming clean with the workforce, and we are where all sorts of

:44:21.:44:24.

allegations coming out. Jim Ratcliffe was saying they are to be

:44:25.:44:29.

honest about the finances. That is what was lacking all along, the lack

:44:30.:44:34.

of honesty and transparency on behalf of the employer, and I think

:44:35.:44:40.

there would have been a better and there weren't, had we had there been

:44:41.:44:45.

transparency. Was the union demonised? I was astonished when you

:44:46.:44:54.

said this was a case when the union was overwhelmed by 20th-century

:44:55.:45:03.

mobile capitalism. They were overwhelmed by a union that walked

:45:04.:45:07.

straight into a trap. The management wanted to change these working

:45:08.:45:10.

practices and instead of arguing about the practices, the union

:45:11.:45:17.

decided to fight a stupid 1970s battle about political power way or

:45:18.:45:27.

the convener, according to the evidence amassed, he was spending a

:45:28.:45:33.

quarter of his time trying to organise or fix a constituency

:45:34.:45:37.

Labour Party selection. That is nothing to do with trade unions as

:45:38.:45:41.

we understand them now. What about wages and conditions? This is what

:45:42.:45:50.

the union chose to fight. This was a unique situation in terms of

:45:51.:45:54.

industrial relations what the company controlled by one powerful

:45:55.:45:58.

man, so negotiation would be very different to what you would normally

:45:59.:46:07.

expect? Probably most trade union negotiations traditionally have not

:46:08.:46:22.

been done like this. They usually negotiate collectively but this was

:46:23.:46:30.

not like that at all. I also have felt that the attitudes to the trade

:46:31.:46:35.

unions over the last week or so has been quite disgraceful from some

:46:36.:46:39.

quarters of the media. They are the victims here. Have they served their

:46:40.:46:46.

members well when you look at the outcome? I think the situation with

:46:47.:46:54.

the union is that you have to remember the union is its members in

:46:55.:47:02.

this sense. They vote for strike action over the attacks on wages and

:47:03.:47:10.

conditions was an 82% of vote on an 86% return. The decision to go back

:47:11.:47:20.

and accept the ultimatum from Jim Ratcliffe was a workforce decision.

:47:21.:47:27.

You are shaking your head? Everyone seems to be forgetting the initial

:47:28.:47:31.

strike was called over speedy deans but I agree, this dispute shows

:47:32.:47:38.

Scotland on both sides in a very bad light. -- Stevie Deans. I have

:47:39.:47:44.

spoken to outsiders involved in these negotiations and they have all

:47:45.:47:47.

been astonished by the level of personal animosity between the shop

:47:48.:47:52.

floor and the management. It was poisonous. It was a stupid union

:47:53.:48:01.

dealing with management levels which were impenetrable. They could not

:48:02.:48:06.

work out what the management structure was and everything had to

:48:07.:48:10.

go back to Jim Ratcliffe, but instead of fighting that battle,

:48:11.:48:22.

they wanted to fight on deans. What does this tell us about union

:48:23.:48:29.

relations going forward? The positive part of this outcome was

:48:30.:48:33.

that thousands of jobs have been saved, although belatedly. The

:48:34.:48:44.

negative part is the management and the order still seem intent on

:48:45.:48:52.

victimising the workforce. -- and Jim Ratcliffe. They are now coming

:48:53.:48:56.

up with suggestions that people that voted against the company proposal

:48:57.:49:01.

should get a worse deal on pensions than people who voted for it. If

:49:02.:49:07.

ever there is a way to continue the acrimony and bad industrial

:49:08.:49:13.

relations, that is the way to do it. Scotland is light years behind some

:49:14.:49:16.

other countries in terms of industrial democracy. Look at

:49:17.:49:24.

Denmark and Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Look at

:49:25.:49:32.

Germany, even. Workers have more salient in planning and investment

:49:33.:49:37.

decisions of their companies and instead of this silly confrontation,

:49:38.:49:44.

you get more of a cooperation and better productivity. Looking for

:49:45.:49:51.

work, what we need to say is it wasn't just the workforce, it was

:49:52.:49:59.

also politicians and communities in Scotland that had the gun held to

:50:00.:50:03.

his head. Would he not argue it is has money? He is going to borrow

:50:04.:50:13.

money from here... He now has the UK government to give a loan guarantee.

:50:14.:50:20.

If he defaults, it is us that had to pay it back, so he has actually

:50:21.:50:25.

helped that loaded gun across the board to all of us and walked away.

:50:26.:50:32.

I worry considerably that the 25 years future that was spoken of in

:50:33.:50:39.

the press yesterday by the company and politicians will only last as

:50:40.:50:53.

long as the next demand. It will work in Scotland, it will work only

:50:54.:50:57.

if they give up this idea they can run political parties as well. Ed

:50:58.:51:03.

Miliband is trying to distance himself, you cannot have the union

:51:04.:51:08.

at a loss-making plant spending a quarter of its time fiddling a

:51:09.:51:13.

selection conference. That is not the way to get worker representation

:51:14.:51:18.

on board. These allegations have not been proven. We need to look at

:51:19.:51:24.

governmental responsibility and taxpayers money going into these

:51:25.:51:29.

companies. The UK government have put a loan guarantee of ?125

:51:30.:51:34.

million, the Scottish government regional development assistance of

:51:35.:51:40.

?9 million. That is a lot of taxpayers money, and in return I

:51:41.:51:44.

think both governments should use that money is leveraged to ensure

:51:45.:51:48.

that the company treats its workers in a more responsible way. Corporate

:51:49.:51:54.

responsibility is something very lacking in companies like INEOS. If

:51:55.:51:59.

there was more a responsibility to their workforce, I think the trade

:52:00.:52:05.

unions would respond in a more responsible way. Thank you all for

:52:06.:52:11.

coming in to speak to us today. Labour won the Scottish Parliament

:52:12.:52:19.

by-election. A 7% swing from the Nationalists. What does this tell us

:52:20.:52:22.

about the political education in Scotland? If it's just a blip for

:52:23.:52:32.

Alex Salmond? Labour has been the dominant force

:52:33.:52:37.

in Dunfermline since the creation of the Scottish parliament, but that

:52:38.:52:41.

hold was broken in 2011 when Bill Walker secured a victory for the

:52:42.:52:46.

SNP. This week's by-election was

:52:47.:52:49.

triggered by his resignation after he was thrown out by his party and

:52:50.:52:56.

jailed for domestic abuse. It was a campaign fought on local issues, not

:52:57.:53:01.

least proposed school closures. The SNP had the best-known candidate and

:53:02.:53:07.

focused on national policies like the council tax freeze. But mid-term

:53:08.:53:12.

votes tend to be unkind to those in government, and so it was in

:53:13.:53:17.

Dunfermline. The SNP's share of the vote fell by 7%, the Lib Dems were

:53:18.:53:28.

down 8%. Labour's candidate, she claimed her victory reflected the

:53:29.:53:32.

public's frustration with the referendum campaign.

:53:33.:53:42.

I will repay your trust in me after the disgrace of Bill Walker,

:53:43.:53:48.

Dunfermline deserves better and I will ensure that we will be far

:53:49.:53:54.

better than what went before. Dunfermline has sent a message to

:53:55.:53:59.

Alex Salmond, it is time for you to concentrate on the real priorities

:54:00.:54:03.

of Scottish people not your constitutional obsession. That is a

:54:04.:54:09.

sentiment shared by her party's leadership. But what does the

:54:10.:54:12.

success mean for the bigger battles which lie ahead?

:54:13.:54:16.

The leader of Scottish Labour is with me now. Let me ask you about

:54:17.:54:22.

Grangemouth, as we were discussing that. How well did Scottish

:54:23.:54:27.

ministers handle the situation? I was very pleased the Scottish and UK

:54:28.:54:31.

government came together to solve this problem. At the very heart of

:54:32.:54:35.

this was a workforce and community in shock and treated very badly. I

:54:36.:54:41.

was very glad the government came together to secure the jobs for

:54:42.:54:45.

those people and their families and the broader UK economy. If I was in

:54:46.:54:54.

the privilege -- privileged position of government my focus would have

:54:55.:54:58.

been on the implications for those families and the Scottish economy.

:54:59.:55:02.

We would work to do whatever we could to make sure those jobs were

:55:03.:55:05.

secure. As regards the situation which has emerged which started with

:55:06.:55:12.

Stephen Denes and his role in the Falkirk selection. There is a

:55:13.:55:15.

newspaper story today which said e-mails have been handed in to the

:55:16.:55:19.

police suggesting dirty tricks in terms of getting people to withdraw

:55:20.:55:23.

allegations, is it time for Ed Miliband to look into this again? I

:55:24.:55:28.

have not seen the e-mails, but if they are serious allegations they

:55:29.:55:32.

need to be looked at. I'm determined to make sure we look at an open

:55:33.:55:39.

process for selection and select a candidate who will represent labour

:55:40.:55:43.

and stand up for the people of Falkirk. That needs to be the focus

:55:44.:55:50.

in the coming period. Where the process is wrong up until now? The

:55:51.:55:57.

investigation by the party looked at the scale of the challenge. People

:55:58.:56:02.

were expressing concerns about Falkirk, and I'm determined the

:56:03.:56:06.

Labour Party is open and transparent. It is not a plaything

:56:07.:56:11.

of individual groupings. The message for me is that if anyone believes

:56:12.:56:14.

the big battle in the Labour Party is to get selected, they are sending

:56:15.:56:20.

out the wrong message. You cannot presume people's support. I am

:56:21.:56:25.

determined we are very clear, the main thing we do is go out to speak

:56:26.:56:29.

to people, listen to their concerns and stand up for them. Any

:56:30.:56:34.

presumption we take the voters for granted is entirely unacceptable.

:56:35.:56:42.

You one in Dunfermline, but if that was replicated across Scotland you

:56:43.:56:49.

still would not be able to overturn the SNP's majority. In your desire

:56:50.:56:53.

to be First Minister and for your party to lead this country, do you

:56:54.:56:59.

accept it might take two general elections to do that? There is this

:57:00.:57:07.

recognition, even with a 7% swing, that perhaps we would almost be the

:57:08.:57:11.

biggest party. It tells us that scale of the challenge ahead of us.

:57:12.:57:17.

We have made very good progress from a very difficult stage. I said the

:57:18.:57:22.

Labour Party would change, we would win back the support of the people

:57:23.:57:27.

of Scotland. That is a work in progress. I am not complacent about

:57:28.:57:33.

this. We will be credible and competitive, and Alex Salmond may,

:57:34.:57:38.

through arithmetic, establish you doing OK. What he is doing is

:57:39.:57:42.

ignoring the mesh -- the message being given to him. People are

:57:43.:57:49.

concerned Alex Salmond is not representing and doing his job.

:57:50.:57:53.

By-elections rarely changed anything, and the most recent poll

:57:54.:57:59.

showed 57% support for the first in a strand the government in what they

:58:00.:58:03.

are doing. Even at this stage they seem to be doing well in the eyes of

:58:04.:58:08.

the public. It does not feel like that to me. The SNP have failed to

:58:09.:58:19.

win any by-elections since 2012. The people of Scotland are saying to

:58:20.:58:24.

Alex Salmond, do your day job. Tell us what you think about

:58:25.:58:28.

independence, but at the same time, what can you do in terms of creating

:58:29.:58:33.

economic opportunities? What can you be doing about making our education

:58:34.:58:39.

system better? What can you do about the care situation with too many

:58:40.:58:42.

people left isolated in their own home? Can people legitimately say of

:58:43.:58:49.

you and your party, we know what you are against? You are against

:58:50.:58:53.

independence, the bedroom tax, what are you for? We have a long process

:58:54.:59:00.

to go through. It is about rebuilding trust. We do need to talk

:59:01.:59:06.

much more positively about the kind of Scotland we want to see. What are

:59:07.:59:14.

the issues you are for? Education and opportunity. The fact that too

:59:15.:59:21.

many of our young people's life decisions are determined by a young

:59:22.:59:27.

age. What is happening in terms of colleges and carer. These are big

:59:28.:59:31.

issues we could be addressing cross party in Scottish Parliament right

:59:32.:59:34.

now. Unfortunately everything is seen through the frame of

:59:35.:59:40.

independence. As we come towards a 2016 election there will be very

:59:41.:59:44.

specific things we will be talking about. What I am determined is that

:59:45.:59:48.

my view and vision of Scotland have two relate to what people's lives

:59:49.:59:53.

are alike. It will not be a trading of slogans, it will be how we make

:59:54.:59:58.

sure our young people get the best education. How do we stop the

:59:59.:00:02.

attacks on further education, and how do we ensure our health and

:00:03.:00:06.

social care Airbuses mean people are treated with dignity. Given what use

:00:07.:00:12.

said said in the past about universal benefits, people might

:00:13.:00:17.

have been confused by the leaflet you put during the Dunfermline

:00:18.:00:21.

by-election where you said you supported the scrapping of

:00:22.:00:25.

prescription charges. Labour supports the free bus passes. Labour

:00:26.:00:32.

supports the tax freeze. It is a reflection of the cartoon politics

:00:33.:00:36.

we are living with that their SNP misrepresent what Labour has said. I

:00:37.:00:41.

have never said that some people get something for nothing. I have said

:00:42.:00:44.

you have to look both at what you spend money on and what are the

:00:45.:00:49.

consequences of that. It is not acceptable to say free personal care

:00:50.:00:52.

when people are living with the experience of less than 15 minute

:00:53.:00:56.

visits. I want to sustain public services and we need to have a

:00:57.:01:01.

debate about that. I am in the same place in that debate as many others,

:01:02.:01:06.

as John Swinney himself said in private. How do you see the council

:01:07.:01:19.

tax freeze? He is a respected academic. Do you agree with his

:01:20.:01:26.

findings? We will of course look at the report. But your leaflet says

:01:27.:01:32.

labour supports the council tax freeze, he says it is an inefficient

:01:33.:01:39.

use of public funds. Up until 2017 local authorities made commitments

:01:40.:01:43.

to have a council tax freeze. First of all, the council tax freeze is

:01:44.:01:48.

underfunded. John Swinney has attacked local government then

:01:49.:01:52.

condemns local government for making cuts. Secondly we know that the

:01:53.:01:57.

council tax is discredited. I would hope that a cross-party we could

:01:58.:02:00.

have a discussion about how we properly fund local government. Are

:02:01.:02:05.

you talking about a change to the council tax? There is a huge

:02:06.:02:09.

challenge. People do not want to pay their council tax. Is labour working

:02:10.:02:21.

on an alternative? The prize cross-party is to understand that

:02:22.:02:25.

people really care about their local services. We know the funding of

:02:26.:02:30.

them is not sustainable. I want a discussion, not where the parties

:02:31.:02:34.

get dividing lines between each other, but come together and address

:02:35.:02:39.

the challenge of how do you properly build a confidence in the way in

:02:40.:02:43.

which you raise taxes locally in order to ensure our schools are well

:02:44.:02:46.

equipped and our young people are properly educated. Thank you for

:02:47.:02:53.

joining us this afternoon. Still to come, a look at the week

:02:54.:03:00.

ahead. You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Here is the news.

:03:01.:03:08.

Good afternoon. Two former senior police officers have clashed over

:03:09.:03:14.

security implications in independent Scotland. Graeme Pearson, former

:03:15.:03:19.

head of the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency there's effective

:03:20.:03:24.

working is easier as part of the UK. Allan Burnett, he says a Scottish

:03:25.:03:36.

intelligence agency could do better. Eight people have been rescued

:03:37.:03:40.

following a fire in the East End of Glasgow. Emergency crews were called

:03:41.:03:45.

to the Dennistoun area just before 1:30am. The residents, including two

:03:46.:03:52.

children, were taken off the fifth floor by firefighters. A further 33

:03:53.:03:56.

people were evacuated from the building, no one was injured.

:03:57.:04:02.

Good afternoon, a rather wet look to the afternoon. Some places seeing

:04:03.:04:12.

good spells, but a fair few showers across western parts. One or two

:04:13.:04:19.

showers making it through eastwards. It will be quite windy across

:04:20.:04:24.

central and southern parts of the wind following across northern areas

:04:25.:04:30.

as the day progresses. Temperatures around 11-12dC at best.

:04:31.:04:34.

That is it for the moment. In the moment we will be discussing

:04:35.:04:40.

the events coming up at Holyrood. Almost half of Edinburgh's licensed

:04:41.:04:57.

saunas are to close after reset city refused to grant them licences.

:04:58.:05:02.

The closure of a chemical firm in Paisley.

:05:03.:05:14.

The Scottish Housing regulator says housing arrears have increased since

:05:15.:05:17.

the bedroom tax was abolished. A former Liberal Democrat MP has

:05:18.:05:21.

taken his seat in the House of Lords. Jeremy Purvis will now set as

:05:22.:05:29.

Lord Purvis of Tweed. The cost of fuel bills raised the

:05:30.:05:33.

temperature in the House of Commons. I want better regulation

:05:34.:05:38.

and deals for consumers. ScottishPower are one of the latest

:05:39.:05:44.

firms to announce price rises. Finally, Jack Straw is to stand down

:05:45.:05:50.

as an MP at the next general election.

:05:51.:05:55.

So, if that was the week that was, let's turn our attention to the Week

:05:56.:06:02.

Ahead. My guests today, Alan Roden,

:06:03.:06:05.

Political Editor for the Daily Mail here in Scotland and the freelance

:06:06.:06:14.

journalist Pennie Taylor. Let's take a look through a couple of the

:06:15.:06:19.

stories in the newspapers. Lots of coverage of Grangemouth with the

:06:20.:06:23.

Sunday Herald saying there are details of the secret deal done by

:06:24.:06:32.

Alex Salmond to save Grangemouth. He had a secret meeting to see if

:06:33.:06:36.

another company could purchase the plant. There seems to be praise for

:06:37.:06:40.

the first Minister's handling of the situation. He is dealing with the

:06:41.:06:46.

day-to-day issues of a crisis like this. He put the constitutional

:06:47.:06:51.

argument on hold for a few days but was helped by the UK government in

:06:52.:06:58.

this. This proves we are Better Together know with both sides coming

:06:59.:07:05.

together to encourage this deal. Neither side was making political

:07:06.:07:08.

points and seemed to be coming together for the national interest.

:07:09.:07:12.

They definitely seems to have taken that decision to leave the

:07:13.:07:17.

referendum to one side. Looking at the coverage in the papers today and

:07:18.:07:21.

through the week, Alex Salmond has come out of it very much the vector,

:07:22.:07:29.

the white hat, if you like. How did the workers come out of it? They are

:07:30.:07:38.

immensely relieved and I find it personally astonishing that people

:07:39.:07:43.

can say it is the media's fault that the union movement has come out of

:07:44.:07:47.

this badly, because I think all the coverage through the week would

:07:48.:07:53.

indicate that the Utah that the union made was one that the workers

:07:54.:08:05.

wanted. -- U-turn. How do Ineos look at the end of this week? The union

:08:06.:08:13.

where worse by far. The mess this up and let the workers almost over the

:08:14.:08:18.

cliff and need to have a look at themselves and learn some lessons

:08:19.:08:21.

because I do not think workers will thank the union for what has

:08:22.:08:30.

happened. I would suggest the events of this week show more than ever

:08:31.:08:34.

that we need a strong union movement in Scotland to represent the

:08:35.:08:38.

interests of workers up against companies like Ineos but the

:08:39.:08:43.

implication is we need intelligent union intervention and not the kind

:08:44.:08:47.

of macho approach we have seen this layout. Dennis Canon felt the union

:08:48.:08:53.

were working with one hand behind their back. -- Dennis Canavan. If

:08:54.:09:01.

there's ever a time when you need a union that is level-headed, this was

:09:02.:09:07.

then but instead they read from the 1970s textbook and went ahead with

:09:08.:09:11.

the barnstorming approach that did not work out and have left the

:09:12.:09:19.

workers in a much worse situation. Let me turn to the Sunday express or

:09:20.:09:23.

have an interesting story saying the first Minister was the result of --

:09:24.:09:36.

recipient of US phone bugging. The suggestion is that America seems to

:09:37.:09:40.

know in advance of the announcement being made a couple of years ago

:09:41.:09:50.

that Al-Megrahi was being released. I think if I was Alex Salmond I

:09:51.:09:55.

would feel proud to be worthy of being bugged by the Americans. If

:09:56.:10:00.

the new, what I don't understand is what difference it made to any

:10:01.:10:06.

outcome, what is the point? Forewarned is forearmed but it seems

:10:07.:10:12.

to be a widespread practice? There's some wishful thinking with the idea

:10:13.:10:17.

that Alex Salmond is in the top 35 world leaders is ridiculous, but it

:10:18.:10:23.

is going to dominate issues in Europe for the week ahead. A

:10:24.:10:31.

brand-new MSP being sworn in on Thursday. What do you make of the

:10:32.:10:42.

Rectory in Baz Luhrmann? -- victory in Dunfermline. It is the second

:10:43.:10:48.

biggest majority Labour has in Hollywood now. They are undoubtedly

:10:49.:10:58.

had the best campaign. The first Minister himself took to the streets

:10:59.:11:01.

on the final day but they still lost heavily. There were special

:11:02.:11:10.

circumstances surrounding this and it is always difficult to read too

:11:11.:11:18.

much into a by-election. They always say you cannot draw a conclusion

:11:19.:11:22.

about the referendum from a by-election result but I imagine

:11:23.:11:28.

Grangemouth, not too far from Dunfermline, will have had in impact

:11:29.:11:35.

on how people voted that day. The interesting impact for me was the

:11:36.:11:43.

growth of UKIP. That causes me some pause for reflection. They got twice

:11:44.:11:53.

as many votes as the Greens got. UKIP are not the political force in

:11:54.:11:57.

Scotland as in England but they will dominate the agenda down south and

:11:58.:12:03.

they could scrape in with an MEP in Scotland. They are on course to save

:12:04.:12:09.

their deposit sometimes. The Liberal Democrat vote went down

:12:10.:12:14.

substantially. It does not look as if there's any resurgence for them

:12:15.:12:20.

any soon? They are going nowhere and Willie Rennie was very popular in

:12:21.:12:26.

that area but it did not translate into votes. That seems to be the

:12:27.:12:34.

picture, that people are still unhappy about being in coalition? I

:12:35.:12:44.

think very much so, across Scotland, it is anecdotal that people who

:12:45.:12:47.

voted Liberal Democrat are feeling pretty much betrayed.

:12:48.:12:52.

What about the Conservatives? They will point to the vote going up by

:12:53.:12:59.

1% with the turnout of 42%, which is not very many votes. Is there any

:13:00.:13:04.

sign they are doing anything other than flat-lining? Ruth Davidson is

:13:05.:13:11.

doing a decent job but they are going nowhere and are continuing.

:13:12.:13:18.

Success for higher will be doubling the seats and going from one to two

:13:19.:13:22.

but anything other than that will be a disaster. Do either of you get any

:13:23.:13:29.

sense about what this can tell us about the referendum? It will be a

:13:30.:13:38.

clash between the Scottish Titans. Although Labour are saying this was

:13:39.:13:42.

partly a rejection of independence, it did not feel like that. The SNP,

:13:43.:13:48.

who have a formidable election machine, they knew not to discuss

:13:49.:13:55.

that. They talked about local schools which is a massive issue in

:13:56.:13:59.

Dunfermline. They could have done a lot better.

:14:00.:14:02.

Thank you to you both. That's all from us - I'll be back at the usual

:14:03.:14:09.

time next week. Just before we go, a reminder of Newsnight Scotland's

:14:10.:14:14.

special debate tomorrow with a look at higher education in the context

:14:15.:14:16.

of the referendum. Goodbye.

:14:17.:14:19.

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