03/11/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


03/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by Unite leader Len McCluskey, the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.


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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as lead gate and is now about

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police. The watchdog is reopening an inquiry into three serving officers

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who helped bring down a cabinet minister as their evidence is

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branded a work of fiction. They tried to intimidate range modes

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but in the end, it was the union that capitulated. I will ask about

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Unite strong-arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. The preach

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that women should be sidelined and argue that they are sexual objects

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that should be covered up. Which one we will ask the Muslim Council of

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Britain about the veil, attitudes towards women and what they are

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doing to stop extremism in our midst. And here in Scotland:

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Are the days of a reassuring figure behind the front counter at your

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local police stations numbered? The pros and cons of modernising our

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police service. its staff.

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With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen

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Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their

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humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the

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programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is

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there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded

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what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by

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three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did

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or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike

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through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and

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inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of

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misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints

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Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about

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Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high

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dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some

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time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and

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technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an

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enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to

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stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the

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incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would

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sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It

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is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are

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still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside

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Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.

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The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so

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we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police

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Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a

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police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a

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Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation

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will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed

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Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in

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2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday

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Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging

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to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of

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coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the

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enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General

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Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up

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with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.

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Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union

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headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq

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tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an

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inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were

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called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But

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turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the

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centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS

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launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company

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time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That

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candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans

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resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic

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climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to

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the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk

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vote rigging. Forgery, coercion, trickery, manipulation. You must be

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ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article

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is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all

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dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those

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allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the

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Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no

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wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the

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investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to

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get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the

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dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply

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flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to

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do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got

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to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no

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wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done

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nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to

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conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally

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complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because

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Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie

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Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into

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the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They

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showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview

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would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question

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that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR

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company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter

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is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there

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was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten

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and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are

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a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny

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that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it

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completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness

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statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing

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the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to

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answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.

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So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent

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family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic

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solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a

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cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a

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trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the

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demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative

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mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband

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should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an

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industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This

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is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe

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if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,

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they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and

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not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be

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silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with

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a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.

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No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged

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passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at

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the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to

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be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject

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totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.

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That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these

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tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,

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but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour

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laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that

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we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is

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happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen

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elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You

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were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to

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take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing

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to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's

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see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig

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out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has

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tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour

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Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we

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started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and

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howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,

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your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to

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moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the

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investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never

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said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to

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a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring

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it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not

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believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You

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carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a

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work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because

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the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because

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Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our

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members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end

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you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important

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industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.

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Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There

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is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day

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and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory

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democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to

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express to management their concerns and their views. That is what

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happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of

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Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack

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Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what

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their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the

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matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our

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members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop

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stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to

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shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.

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You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike

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rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we

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are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The

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Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken

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to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,

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Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop

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stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make

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a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we

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stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we

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will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us. Is

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your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur

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Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am

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accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they

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will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with

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them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the

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disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.

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"A country ready to welcome your investment which values your

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friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,

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religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the

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World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in

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London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by

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British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's

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been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to

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women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a

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moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim

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Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The

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call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links

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with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst

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British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither

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helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are

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so many different sects, traditions, cultures and

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nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim

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communities, but there is one question being put to them - are

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they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues? Are

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they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to

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non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful

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way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de

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has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject

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extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community

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work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are

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failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one

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figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private

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something very different is being said and the messages are being

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confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space

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where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim

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youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular

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society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran

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are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't

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make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating

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obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of

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those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices

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like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example, or

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discrimination against women. There is a long list but I am very clear

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that in fact the bad Muslim is the one who sticks to unflinching,

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narrow dogmatic fundamentalist perception of religion. One issue

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often focused on is the wearing of minicab. Polling suggests 80% of

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Britons would favour a ban in public places. -- the niqab. Many people

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don't seem to recognise the legacy of the niqab. Many people preach

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that women should be sidelined and that they are sexual objects that

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should be covered up and the preservation of morality falls on

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their shoulders. The Muslim Council of Britain recently got praise for

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holding a conference on combating sexual exploitation. In the wake of

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abuse cases that had involved predominantly Pakistani men. For one

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man who has followed the story for some years, the Muslim Council of

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Britain needs to do much more. We need to get along together and if

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things like attitudes towards the normal slim girl in stark contrast

:21:43.:21:50.

to the expression of honour and chastity of the Muslim girl, your

:21:51.:21:54.

sister or daughter, are such that actions that would be an fought off

:21:55.:22:00.

with a slim girl becomes permissible with a white girl, then we are all

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in trouble. To some, attitudes to women are not limited to sexual

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interactions at the very structures of life in Muslim communities and

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indeed the Muslim Council of Britain itself. I would like to ask the

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Muslim Council of Britain what they are doing about the fact that very

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few mosques give voices to are doing about the fact that very

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the fact that someone women are experiencing female genital

:22:37.:22:38.

mutilation and forced marriages, what about the women who are getting

:22:39.:22:42.

married and their marriages are not being registered and they are being

:22:43.:22:46.

left homeless and denied maintenance rights, what about the fact there

:22:47.:22:51.

are sharia rights that have been found to be discriminating against

:22:52.:22:54.

women, and the fact there are men in this country who continue to hold

:22:55.:22:59.

misogynistic views about women, what are you doing? The occasional press

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release will not solve this problem of a deeply patriarchal community.

:23:07.:23:11.

That all of these issues can be exploited to the point of Islam

:23:12.:23:15.

phobia is not doubted, but many Muslims feel that unless the

:23:16.:23:21.

communities do tackle this openly, a big cultural gap will exist between

:23:22.:23:28.

the two. And the Secretary General of the

:23:29.:23:31.

Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, joins me now. One visible

:23:32.:23:36.

sign that sets muslins aside is the veils that cover women's faces. Do

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you think it makes them impossible to be part of mainstream society?

:23:46.:23:55.

The niqab is not an obligatory requirement. But do you accept that

:23:56.:23:58.

those who wear it are cutting themselves off from mainstream

:23:59.:24:04.

society? Some people do, and whilst wearing niqab, some of them are

:24:05.:24:14.

working in various walks of life successfully and it is seen as a

:24:15.:24:18.

faith requirement, but it is a red herring in the sense that it applies

:24:19.:24:23.

to such a small number of Muslim girls. For many Muslim preachers,

:24:24.:24:28.

isn't separation precisely the point of the niqab? Certainly not, if you

:24:29.:24:38.

look at the Muslim women in the public sphere, we have many very

:24:39.:24:44.

successful women. But not the ones who are veiled. Not in the public

:24:45.:24:55.

arena as such, but the veil is a practice which is practised by a

:24:56.:25:00.

very small number. Do you favour it? I personally think it is not a

:25:01.:25:07.

requirement. But do you think women should wear the veil? I think it is

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wrong to force women to wear the veil. I asked if in your opinion

:25:13.:25:18.

women should wear the veil? It is important not to force women to wear

:25:19.:25:24.

the veil. Should they of their free choice where the veil? A lot of

:25:25.:25:28.

individuals do things out of their free choice which I do not approve

:25:29.:25:33.

of, I don't think it is conducive it helps their cause, but I do not have

:25:34.:25:38.

the right to take their choice away from them. I am still unsure if you

:25:39.:25:43.

think it is a good thing or a bad thing. Are not many Muslim women in

:25:44.:25:49.

this country being forced by Muslim preachers and often their male

:25:50.:25:53.

relations who want to keep Muslim women their place? As I said, it is

:25:54.:25:57.

wrong for anyone to force Muslim women. But how would we ever know in

:25:58.:26:06.

a family if a woman was being forced? Exactly, we don't know what

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is going on in people 's homes and what pressure is being applied. I

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want you to look at this picture, very popular on Islamic websites,

:26:19.:26:22.

and it shows the women who is wearing the niqab having a straight

:26:23.:26:28.

route to heaven, and the other Muslim woman dressed in western gear

:26:29.:26:33.

condemned to hell. Do you consider that a proper message for Muslim

:26:34.:26:41.

women? Not at all, I don't. So any Islamic websites in Britain... The

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Muslim Council of Britain is an organisation of five affiliates from

:26:48.:26:50.

across the country and this is not coming from any of them. As I said,

:26:51.:26:56.

those minority views propagated by individuals should not be used to

:26:57.:27:02.

represent Muslim community. So that would not have the support of the

:27:03.:27:08.

Muslim Council of Britain? It would not have the support. What about the

:27:09.:27:12.

Muslim free school that requires children as young as 11 to wear a

:27:13.:27:25.

black veil outside of school? Do you agree with that? I am not sure

:27:26.:27:35.

exactly what the policy is... I have just told you, do you agree that

:27:36.:27:44.

girls as young as 11 should wear a black burka outside of school? I

:27:45.:27:49.

don't think it should be imposed on anybody. But this is the desired

:27:50.:28:02.

dress School of the Muslim females. I am asking for your view. I said it

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at the beginning that I do not think it should be imposed. Would you send

:28:07.:28:13.

your daughter to a school that would wear a black burka at the age of 11?

:28:14.:28:27.

Would you? No. It seems that some muslins are determined to segregate

:28:28.:28:30.

young Muslim girls right from the start to very early from society. It

:28:31.:28:37.

is not their segregation as such, I would say that there are faith

:28:38.:28:46.

schools, if you look at an Islamic girls school in Blackburn in a

:28:47.:28:49.

traditional setting, it has come the top of the league table this year in

:28:50.:28:56.

the secondary school league tables. But it doesn't make 11-year-olds

:28:57.:29:03.

wear black burkas. Many of those girls go on to have a successful

:29:04.:29:10.

career. Not wearing black burkas. I am sure there are examples of women

:29:11.:29:18.

who do have successful careers. There is a very conservative

:29:19.:29:21.

movement from the continent on Islam, and the issue supposedly

:29:22.:29:33.

based on Islamic law on their website. Here is one of their recent

:29:34.:29:41.

judgements. The female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her

:29:42.:29:45.

home as much as possible, she should not come out of the home without

:29:46.:29:49.

need and necessity. What do you think of that? We need to say the

:29:50.:29:55.

whole context of that quote. They are saying they should stay at home

:29:56.:29:59.

as much as possible, do you agree with that? I see many Muslim women

:30:00.:30:12.

who are walking about... But this is what the mosque is recommending

:30:13.:30:17.

women should do. The practice is quite the contrary. Let me show you

:30:18.:30:38.

another one. Another Fatwa. Do you agree with that? These have been

:30:39.:30:43.

picked out from material dating back to different cultural settings and

:30:44.:30:50.

in practice they are not applied. This is advice being given as we

:30:51.:30:57.

speak. This is not being practised. Do you agree with it? No, not at

:30:58.:31:03.

all. These are from the DL Monday mosques, how come 72 of these

:31:04.:31:07.

mosques are affiliated to your counsel? There may be publications

:31:08.:31:25.

from one of their scholars, but they have been written in countries

:31:26.:31:31.

abroad and translated. This is advice being given to young women

:31:32.:31:37.

now. They are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain. Do you

:31:38.:31:43.

ever speak to them about that? The Muslim Council is a very broad

:31:44.:31:47.

organisation. We are working on lots of common issues to create a

:31:48.:31:52.

community which positively integrates. Did you ever speak to

:31:53.:32:01.

them to say this is not appropriate for British Muslims? There may be

:32:02.:32:08.

certain ad buys and publications available, but people make their

:32:09.:32:16.

choices. So it is OK for your organisation to issue things like

:32:17.:32:26.

that? Many of these things will fall under scrutiny and we need to create

:32:27.:32:35.

that. Why do only 26% of British mosques have facilities for women?

:32:36.:32:40.

If you go back to the requirement of prayer, it was not obligatory for

:32:41.:32:46.

women to come to the masks to prayer. When a poorer community

:32:47.:32:52.

began putting up mosques at the very beginning in terraced houses... Did

:32:53.:32:59.

you have a policy to encourage them? Is it on your website? It is in our

:33:00.:33:08.

practices that 20% of the council have to be female. Coming out of

:33:09.:33:16.

this movement there is a conscious stream of superiority between

:33:17.:33:22.

Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at this quote. He is a well-known

:33:23.:33:26.

picture in this country. That is what he wants to stop. I

:33:27.:33:51.

disagree with that. We believe we live in this society and Muslims in

:33:52.:33:59.

any society of the world, and they have historically lived as

:34:00.:34:04.

minorities in many countries... You would this associate yourself from

:34:05.:34:10.

that? Why do you allow people like that to be affiliated to you? The

:34:11.:34:18.

requirement is for any organisation to be affiliated is that they are

:34:19.:34:21.

bound by the Charity commission's rules and regulations. We only

:34:22.:34:27.

accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of

:34:28.:34:34.

taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue.

:34:35.:34:50.

The Muslim Council of Britain never signed it. You signed it. A member

:34:51.:35:00.

signed it and in the mainstream media defended his position. So you

:35:01.:35:07.

have this associated yourself? We did. What is wrong with that? I am

:35:08.:35:13.

not sure about the Istanbul declaration because we'd

:35:14.:35:16.

disassociated ourselves on the basis... It is associated yourself

:35:17.:35:21.

before reading it? We did not sign it. You have no credit? Edgar Wright

:35:22.:35:26.

I have read it but I cannot recall completely all of the aspects. -- I

:35:27.:35:34.

have read it. At the time, in the national newspapers and media, there

:35:35.:35:39.

was a discussion being made and the person who signed also highlighted

:35:40.:35:42.

and said that that was not what was meant. For how long has your

:35:43.:35:51.

organisation this associated itself from the Istanbul decoration

:35:52.:35:54.

question from day one. It could hardly be from day one. We never

:35:55.:36:02.

signed it. The East London Mosque which you personally and the MCB

:36:03.:36:07.

closely associated with is also the venue for a number of extremist

:36:08.:36:12.

speakers and speakers who is both extremist positions. This year you

:36:13.:36:24.

had was hailed as the gritters of deeds. There was also a presentation

:36:25.:36:28.

by somebody described as an Al-Qaeda supporter. Another had described

:36:29.:36:33.

Christians and Jews as Bill. You have had described Christians and

:36:34.:36:35.

Jews as Bill. You have had a supporter of the Taliban there. Why

:36:36.:36:41.

do you do nothing to stop extremism at this Mosque with which you are

:36:42.:36:50.

associated with? We have no trust for rhetoric which condones or

:36:51.:36:53.

supports violence or extremism. We have issued guidelines and the

:36:54.:36:57.

mosque itself is a registered charity which has its own rules and

:36:58.:37:01.

regulations and procedures but it's a very large mosque and lots of

:37:02.:37:08.

organisations and come and hold gatherings. They rent out the

:37:09.:37:12.

facilities. The mosque have done on... You were prepared to speak

:37:13.:37:17.

alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers and said that 9/11 was not

:37:18.:37:25.

all summer, it was a conspiracy. I do not think I shared a artform. --

:37:26.:37:34.

a platform. There are different organisations holding lots of

:37:35.:37:38.

different conferences here. Why did you agree? I do not agree with that

:37:39.:37:44.

particular. I comes with the reject. I completely reject that view. I

:37:45.:37:51.

completely reject that view. My final question is the attitude to

:37:52.:37:56.

women, the alliance with the most fundamentalist of Islamic mosques,

:37:57.:37:59.

the toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

:38:00.:38:04.

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

:38:05.:38:08.

non-Muslim, regard organisation as a force for good? It is an

:38:09.:38:15.

organisation which represents all different organisations which are

:38:16.:38:22.

affiliates and a cross-section of the Muslim unity. What you have done

:38:23.:38:27.

is to give the efforts of certain individual views, not the views of

:38:28.:38:33.

affiliates. -- Muslim community. It would be unfair to represent MCB's

:38:34.:38:41.

you with those. The work that we do is quite clear and is there a

:38:42.:38:45.

website. They are all associated with you but we have to leave it

:38:46.:38:49.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:38:50.:39:02.

programme: Police Scotland want to modernise

:39:03.:39:05.

the service, which means the days of the front desk are numbered. But

:39:06.:39:08.

with recorded crime down, are they actually on the right path?

:39:09.:39:14.

How many do you get a day? We're talking nuisance calls - and what's

:39:15.:39:18.

being done to free up your phone lines from cold callers. I'm just

:39:19.:39:26.

quite rude to people when they get through to me because I don't think

:39:27.:39:29.

they should be doing that. And could trying to impose terms

:39:30.:39:32.

slow down an independent Scotland's bid to become a member of the EU?

:39:33.:39:36.

We'll get an inside view from the latest member state, Croatia.

:39:37.:39:39.

When were you last at a public counter in a police station? Police

:39:40.:39:45.

Scotland say they need to modernise the service and shutting 65 of what

:39:46.:39:48.

they say are little-used counters will help them make efficiency

:39:49.:39:51.

savings of more than ?4 million, a dent in the ?64 million budget

:39:52.:39:57.

shortfall. Senior officers knew it would be a controversial move, but

:39:58.:40:01.

as Andrew Kerr reports, there has been a real backlash against the

:40:02.:40:11.

proposal. It is part of the folklore we

:40:12.:40:16.

associate with the police, the jolly sergeant behind the counter. Times

:40:17.:40:20.

have changed and it appears front desks are a thing of the past, with

:40:21.:40:25.

few people using them. This is one place where the counter could close.

:40:26.:40:29.

This office has been here for as long as I can remember. I am 48 and

:40:30.:40:33.

I remember being here as a child. It is another step in the wrong

:40:34.:40:39.

direction. I believe we have lost our local inspector as well. We are

:40:40.:40:41.

dealt with from six miles away and it is a slippery slope. There are

:40:42.:40:48.

concerns about the new centralised nature of Police Scotland. We are

:40:49.:40:51.

here at the Glasgow policeman see, celebrating the city of Glasgow

:40:52.:40:56.

police, established in 1800, the first force in Britain. -- the

:40:57.:41:02.

Glasgow Police Museum. What about the people that work behind these

:41:03.:41:07.

counters? There are concerns that they could be forced into voluntary

:41:08.:41:12.

redundancy. The support staff are going to be losing their jobs

:41:13.:41:15.

because of these proposals, that is a concern. One of the biggest

:41:16.:41:19.

problem is that we have is that the Scottish Police Authority have

:41:20.:41:23.

allowed the Chief Constable go out to consultation but not to

:41:24.:41:26.

scrutinise what the outcome of that is going to be. The outcome could be

:41:27.:41:32.

the closure of 65 public counters and reduced opening times at others.

:41:33.:41:38.

The police review the service but the Conservative Leader said the

:41:39.:41:42.

review was based on flawed data. Liberal share concerns. Police say

:41:43.:41:51.

they have consulted widely. -- the Liberal Democrats share concerns.

:41:52.:41:58.

Police urged people to keep -- a report urged people to keep well

:41:59.:42:02.

used counters open. They say this is all part of the modernisation of the

:42:03.:42:05.

service. We need to look at the demand, see whether public needed

:42:06.:42:10.

access and then come up with a system that matched demand

:42:11.:42:16.

accordingly. If you look back over the first six or seven months of

:42:17.:42:20.

Police Scotland, the early success we have had is wonderful.

:42:21.:42:24.

Anti-social behaviour is down. Serious violence is down. Robbery is

:42:25.:42:30.

down. But we are not complacent. We still want to do even better. The

:42:31.:42:33.

First Minister blame Westminster cuts and said he was putting

:42:34.:42:39.

resources into the front line at a time when recorded crime is at a 40

:42:40.:42:43.

year low. The Scottish police iteration take a pragmatic

:42:44.:42:48.

approach. -- the Scottish police Federation. We have to take on some

:42:49.:42:56.

massive challenges. If we look at the closure of counters, I would

:42:57.:43:05.

oppose that. That is a populous thing to do but it does not help

:43:06.:43:10.

reality. This has come at a difficult time in the short life of

:43:11.:43:14.

Police Scotland. It has raised real concerns about local accountability

:43:15.:43:16.

and centralisation. Joining me now in the studio,

:43:17.:43:19.

Scottish Labour's justice spokesperson and former police

:43:20.:43:21.

officer Graeme Pearson, and the SNP's Sandra White - who also sits

:43:22.:43:25.

on the Justice Committee. And in our Aberdeen studio, the justice

:43:26.:43:27.

spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, Alison

:43:28.:43:32.

McInnes. Good afternoon to all of you. Allison, let's start with you.

:43:33.:43:38.

If there is a saving of ?4 million by closing these rarely used front

:43:39.:43:42.

desks, is that not a move worth taking? We have to go back a step

:43:43.:43:47.

and back to first base and ask yourselves what we want form our

:43:48.:43:51.

local police service. Do we want a police service that is rooted in our

:43:52.:43:56.

local communities? That is open and accessible and welcoming? Or are we

:43:57.:44:00.

willing to settle for an increasingly impersonal and faceless

:44:01.:44:03.

organisation? I know what I would want. What we have at the moment is

:44:04.:44:08.

a local police service that values community interaction. It says the

:44:09.:44:14.

doors are open if we need their help or if we can help them. What Police

:44:15.:44:18.

Scotland is proposing is that we turn our backs on community and

:44:19.:44:23.

local stars. Are the police turning their backs by taking this move was

:44:24.:44:28.

to mark absolutely not. We have to be honest. It is a consultation. My

:44:29.:44:34.

understanding is that it has been extended but members of the public

:44:35.:44:37.

wanted to see police on the streets. If you have a fully station with a

:44:38.:44:41.

counter and one person per week has come into that, without policeman

:44:42.:44:46.

not be better out on the street preventing crime than at the

:44:47.:44:49.

counter? -- one police station. Is part of the problem not the

:44:50.:44:53.

admission by the First Minister this week that this was not a

:44:54.:44:59.

comprehensive survey of all the front counters? I understand that

:45:00.:45:01.

the booklet that was given out said it was a snapshot and some of the

:45:02.:45:08.

areas that were not visited was because there was no turnover. I

:45:09.:45:15.

welcome the extension. We have the might -- where people can put their

:45:16.:45:19.

views forward. It is all by preventing crime and the public want

:45:20.:45:24.

police on the streets. We heard from the Scottish police Federation

:45:25.:45:27.

saying that opposition would be populist and easy. Is that the

:45:28.:45:29.

position you find yourself in? Not at all. We were promised by the

:45:30.:45:35.

Government that we would get local policing and that the whole point of

:45:36.:45:40.

having one single force was to enhance and support that outcome.

:45:41.:45:44.

What we have had since is that we have had a withdrawal of services

:45:45.:45:48.

from local endeavours. 1200 jobs have gone behind the scenes. Now, 65

:45:49.:45:53.

police officers and many more will have short hours of working. But you

:45:54.:46:03.

would not keep a front desk open if Sandra White -- as Sandra White

:46:04.:46:06.

says, there is only one person per week. These are not current

:46:07.:46:11.

statistics. There has not been a lot of work put into it. What we did not

:46:12.:46:16.

get from the proposal was what the alternative is. I phoned the new

:46:17.:46:24.

nonemergency number last week because I wanted to speak to

:46:25.:46:28.

somebody. The call centre and was put on two could not even tell we

:46:29.:46:34.

were he worked and eventually I had to leave word so that they could

:46:35.:46:37.

trace him and get him to comment. We have that number and I have not had

:46:38.:46:43.

a problem and has been to phone. When you talk about communities and

:46:44.:46:47.

what they want, in my two-minute, I have seen the representations they

:46:48.:46:50.

have made to the observation and have read them. -- in my community.

:46:51.:46:55.

Some are saying there is no concern, some are saying there is. The

:46:56.:46:58.

community has been asked, certainly in my area. I do not know if Graham

:46:59.:47:03.

or Alison have looked into what the immunity of that, I have. I have

:47:04.:47:08.

seen it in black and white, that has been sent through. If you have that

:47:09.:47:13.

number, people are on Twitter now, they're an e-mail and what the

:47:14.:47:16.

public say to me is that they want to see police on the streets. I walk

:47:17.:47:20.

along the streets of Glasgow and I see police on the street. The book

:47:21.:47:24.

and go up and speak to them. I think that is where the police are in the

:47:25.:47:28.

communities. -- people can go up and speak to them. With recorded crime

:47:29.:47:34.

at a 40 year low, does that not indicate the position that it will

:47:35.:47:38.

lead to a reduction in crime? Diners at a 40 year low not because of

:47:39.:47:41.

Police Scotland, an organisation that has only been around for six

:47:42.:47:48.

months. -- crime is at a 40 year low. I think it is insulting to

:47:49.:47:54.

civilian staff and to the public to suggest that bobbies on the beat is

:47:55.:47:57.

the answer. That is a very 1-dimensional view of policing. It

:47:58.:48:04.

is quite complex. In which case, saying that people turning up at a

:48:05.:48:07.

front desk could be 1-dimensional. Sandra White has pointed out that

:48:08.:48:12.

there are a myriad of ways of communicating. It is trivial to

:48:13.:48:14.

suggest that people who need the help of police should use the

:48:15.:48:19.

resources of Twitter or Facebook. I think that is trivialising the

:48:20.:48:25.

situation. Sorry, could we also just remind you that it is not about

:48:26.:48:30.

closing all the counters. It is reducing the hours in some cases. I

:48:31.:48:36.

would like to ask them if they had done a survey of who goes out to 30

:48:37.:48:41.

AM to report something? There are more likely to phone. It is about

:48:42.:48:45.

more than police presence. It is about more than being able to see

:48:46.:48:49.

whether somebody has turned up at the desk. Civilian staff do a great

:48:50.:48:54.

deal more than talk to the public. The important thing is that most of

:48:55.:48:57.

these counters are utilised by support staff. It is not release

:48:58.:49:01.

officers who are going to be released from his offices. People

:49:02.:49:06.

who use these officers are amongst the most probable in a community.

:49:07.:49:10.

The elderly, young people who need some support, from help, some

:49:11.:49:15.

protection. Victims and witnesses who are looking for support. We have

:49:16.:49:20.

places like Easterhouse, Coatbridge, Airdrie, all closing and reducing

:49:21.:49:27.

their hours and yet we are keeping gift neck and Helensburgh open.

:49:28.:49:31.

There does not seem to be a logic behind the way this work has been

:49:32.:49:34.

done and it is being driven by saving money, not by providing

:49:35.:49:39.

service. Saving money is important. Of course. So how would you do it?

:49:40.:49:44.

The Chief Constable has acknowledged in Aberdeen that he does not think

:49:45.:49:49.

he has sufficient budget to continue to support the 1000 additional

:49:50.:49:52.

officers. The budget for that is 35 million. In addition, local

:49:53.:49:56.

authorities applies the board for something like 350 officers. --

:49:57.:50:02.

apply support. There is a whole range of officers that are there for

:50:03.:50:07.

them and they need to discuss that with communities, rather than a 30

:50:08.:50:11.

day consultation that if you're today, gone tomorrow and then we

:50:12.:50:21.

move on. -- that is due today. When Steve house was asked that question,

:50:22.:50:24.

did they have enough money, they said they did. Will there have to be

:50:25.:50:29.

some job losses? There is voluntary redundancy. That is not compulsory.

:50:30.:50:38.

We have to remember this. 1200 people have been released by Police

:50:39.:50:41.

Scotland. I cannot believe all of them wanted to leave. They have got

:50:42.:50:46.

a way of saying, we let them go. Do you have concerns, the point that

:50:47.:50:51.

was being made is, this is not closure of 65 front desks but a

:50:52.:50:55.

reduction of hours. Do you have concerns that this will be get above

:50:56.:50:59.

the iceberg, that has the years progress there will be more of

:51:00.:51:05.

these? Once the doors are locked to the public, it will not be long

:51:06.:51:08.

after that until someone says, we don't actually need these police

:51:09.:51:11.

stationed at all. We can deploy from a regional base. We see asset

:51:12.:51:16.

stripping of our local communities and that is dangerous, I am

:51:17.:51:19.

suggesting that the lease Scotland call a halt at the moment and go

:51:20.:51:22.

back to first base and quick communities about what they think.

:51:23.:51:29.

Do you have ideas of how you would save money? Because that is

:51:30.:51:33.

necessary. The Liberal Democrats have always said that the kind of

:51:34.:51:35.

savings that the SNP anticipated they would make would not be

:51:36.:51:43.

achievable without swinging cuts to what we have been used to in the

:51:44.:51:46.

police service and I think we need to take a step back from that. You

:51:47.:51:50.

think there will be more closures as time goes by? I don't imagine there

:51:51.:51:58.

would be. We have got to look at crime, it is that a 40 year low.

:51:59.:52:02.

More police on the street, that is what the public want. The public

:52:03.:52:09.

certainly tell me that they like to see police on the street. We will

:52:10.:52:12.

have to leave things there. And you for your time. Have you claimed back

:52:13.:52:20.

your PPI insurance, signed up for double glazing or been in an

:52:21.:52:23.

accident recently? Nuisance calls and spam texts have been the subject

:52:24.:52:26.

of 240,000 complaints to the Information Commissioner's Office in

:52:27.:52:29.

the past 18 months alone. -- thank you for your time. This week, an

:52:30.:52:31.

all-party parliamentary group at Westminster released its report into

:52:32.:52:34.

the issue and a Private Members' Bill was raised by Lib Dem MP Mike

:52:35.:52:39.

Crockart. Cameron Buttle has more. Some estimates put the number of

:52:40.:52:44.

nuisance calls into the millions. Everything from selling double

:52:45.:52:46.

glazing, wanting to know if you have had an accident to scams and cons. I

:52:47.:52:54.

work in a call centre. I make those phone calls. But I get them at home

:52:55.:53:00.

a lot. So you work in a call centre and you get them at home as well?

:53:01.:53:04.

How does that make you feel? Not good. I get angry at them, so to be

:53:05.:53:12.

the person doing them is not good. I am quite rude to people when they

:53:13.:53:15.

get through to me because I don't think they should be doing that. Why

:53:16.:53:21.

not? It is a violation of my space and time. One man has been calling

:53:22.:53:29.

me from the South African diamond exchange. I have tried to explain

:53:30.:53:33.

that I have no money, I invested in property five years ago, and he

:53:34.:53:37.

keeps calling me. He called me during the Manchester City game last

:53:38.:53:42.

week. It did not go down well. That is all I can say. Of course it is

:53:43.:53:48.

not just at home when we are subjected to the nuisance phone

:53:49.:53:51.

calls because mobile phones are being targeted just as much, with

:53:52.:53:56.

cold and texts. One MP behind this report claims the public is now

:53:57.:53:59.

under siege from nuisance phone calls. He said there. Matt that if

:54:00.:54:05.

nothing is done, the problem is going to get worse. The best figures

:54:06.:54:08.

we can come up with is from an Ofcom study. -- he said that if nothing is

:54:09.:54:17.

done. We have asked people to record when they get these calls. The

:54:18.:54:22.

figures are frightening. The size of the problem could well be over 1

:54:23.:54:26.

billion nuisance calls and text messages per year in the United

:54:27.:54:30.

Kingdom. The report from the all-party Parliamentary group made

:54:31.:54:34.

many recommendations. They include tightening the rules of the consent

:54:35.:54:37.

when people agree to be contacted by marketing companies. Making

:54:38.:54:43.

reporting easy and more effective, strategy to protect vulnerable

:54:44.:54:45.

customers, improving international cooperation. Call to action have

:54:46.:54:52.

been echoed by organisations like Which magazine which welcomed the

:54:53.:54:55.

report as it says the current system is failing and called for the law to

:54:56.:55:00.

be strengthened. The Private Members' Bill was due to be debated

:55:01.:55:06.

on Friday, but it got talked out by the preceding debate. So does that

:55:07.:55:10.

mean we are forever to be plagued by nuisance calls on our home phones

:55:11.:55:13.

and mobiles? Well, joining me now is Ken Macdonald from the Information

:55:14.:55:15.

Commissioner's Office. Good afternoon. RU disappointed that that

:55:16.:55:18.

Private Members' Bill did not get anywhere on Friday? Very

:55:19.:55:21.

disappointed that it was talked out and I understand there is an

:55:22.:55:23.

opportunity it will be brought in it this month. The nuisance calls and

:55:24.:55:29.

span text messages are a huge part of the work of the ICO. We have had

:55:30.:55:37.

a quarter of a million complaints in the last 18 months. It is an thing

:55:38.:55:41.

that hits every one day to day, whether they are at work or at home,

:55:42.:55:45.

I telephone or text message. What action specifically was in that bill

:55:46.:55:51.

that you would like to see enacted? The important thing is that they

:55:52.:55:54.

threshold for us to take enforcement action is rather high. It is to show

:55:55.:55:59.

absolute distress and often a text message or a phone call is it deemed

:56:00.:56:04.

to be too low a level. What Mike Crockart was proposing was to lower

:56:05.:56:07.

that threshold to more of the nuisance one and we support that.

:56:08.:56:10.

One of the problems we have had recently is that we levied a fine of

:56:11.:56:18.

over ?440,000 to a partnership which was spamming text messages.

:56:19.:56:23.

Unfortunately, they appealed and the tribunal held that the threshold had

:56:24.:56:29.

not been met despite the millions of text messages being sent out. Is

:56:30.:56:32.

there a place for this kind of marketing? Yes. We recognise that

:56:33.:56:39.

companies need to market, it is part of the business process, but they

:56:40.:56:42.

have to do it in an appropriate way and again, in reaction to the

:56:43.:56:49.

problems people are having, and more awareness of these issues, we have

:56:50.:56:53.

recently produced more guidance to companies that are involved in

:56:54.:56:56.

direct marketing about how they should be processing that. Does it

:56:57.:57:02.

actually work? Is anyone actually purchasing South African diamonds

:57:03.:57:05.

when you are busy at home making your cup of tea? Tell I cannot say

:57:06.:57:10.

whether it works or not. I hope people would understand whether

:57:11.:57:14.

there is a scam cult. It is the absolute intrusion that is taking

:57:15.:57:17.

place. The interruption of your normal domestic life I a call -- by

:57:18.:57:26.

a call for PPI or something. It is intrusive and something that needs

:57:27.:57:30.

to be stopped. The companies that are involved and it will possibly

:57:31.:57:33.

lose more customers than they gain by the way they are doing it. You

:57:34.:57:38.

have some responsibility, the Information Commissioner's Office,

:57:39.:57:41.

in terms of dealing with this but Ofgem have a role too. Is that part

:57:42.:57:45.

of the problem. If that governance and issue? I suspect there is an

:57:46.:57:52.

element of it but we also work with Ofcom and we are working with

:57:53.:57:55.

international partners as well because a lot of these calls are

:57:56.:58:00.

generated from overseas. And we are involved with our European partners

:58:01.:58:03.

and also with US and Canadian authorities looking at ways we can

:58:04.:58:07.

do this on an international basis. The reason that you and Ofcom are

:58:08.:58:10.

involved is because the governance and a lots are quite specific. --

:58:11.:58:22.

the laws. That is right. We deal with electronic unification is that

:58:23.:58:25.

specify what companies can and cannot do in relation to calls and

:58:26.:58:29.

text messages and e-mails. You mentioned your annoyance that he

:58:30.:58:33.

tribunal not actually following through and prosecuting a company.

:58:34.:58:39.

How many companies are actually held to the end contempt of these laws?

:58:40.:58:43.

Tell I cannot give you the precise numbers. We take action against the

:58:44.:58:55.

most prolific offenders. Their is the worst case so far. We find

:58:56.:59:01.

another company ?250,000. -- Tetris is the worst case. Another company

:59:02.:59:09.

was fined ?90,000. We see a decrease in number of complaints made to

:59:10.:59:12.

others after such an action, we suspect that because companies are

:59:13.:59:16.

aware that the action we can take. To you think sometimes the public at

:59:17.:59:19.

unwittingly giving permission or these calls and text to happen? If

:59:20.:59:24.

you look at competitions on television, there is bald print that

:59:25.:59:28.

says, they now in full at the end of your text to prevent this ban. --

:59:29.:59:38.

they say no information at the end of the text to prevent this sit am.

:59:39.:59:44.

There is confusion because some will ask you if you want to opt into

:59:45.:59:52.

marketing. -- this spam. We are trying to raise awareness with

:59:53.:59:55.

organisations and through the direct marketing Association, better ways

:59:56.:00:02.

of making this clear for the customers as to what they are

:00:03.:00:06.

signing up for. To you receive the calls? Yes. I understand the

:00:07.:00:12.

nuisance. It is very interesting. Thank you very much for talking to

:00:13.:00:16.

us. Croatia's ambassador to the UK has

:00:17.:00:19.

warned that trying to impose terms could slow down an independent

:00:20.:00:23.

Scotland's bid to become a member of the EU. Croatia became the 28th

:00:24.:00:28.

member of the club in July. The Scottish Government says

:00:29.:00:31.

negotiations could be concluded by spring 2016 if Scots vote for

:00:32.:00:34.

independence next year. But the ambassador, Ivan Grdesic, said

:00:35.:00:36.

seeking opt-outs from EU rules could prolong the process.

:00:37.:00:47.

In July, Croatia became the 28th member of the European Union. It

:00:48.:00:52.

took 13 years for this country of over 4 million people to emerge from

:00:53.:00:55.

the Balkan wars to become a full member of the European club. Before

:00:56.:01:01.

Croatia could become the European Union's latest member, they had to

:01:02.:01:04.

negotiate with the other countries in the union. Today their ambassador

:01:05.:01:07.

to the UK came to tell members of the Scottish Parliament and is done.

:01:08.:01:11.

After speaking to them, the ambassador stopped in for a word

:01:12.:01:16.

with the Sunday Politics. What is the key to being successful in those

:01:17.:01:19.

negotiations? What advice would you offer to other countries trying to

:01:20.:01:25.

do that? Our experience is that it is really not a negotiation process.

:01:26.:01:29.

You are actually joining the club that already has all the rules, or

:01:30.:01:33.

the regulations that you have to adopt. The question is how you will

:01:34.:01:39.

adopt them and what kind of a time frame you are working too, with what

:01:40.:01:42.

conditions and how you can sort of adopt them into your core of rules

:01:43.:01:48.

and regulations and institutions or arrangements. The Scottish

:01:49.:01:54.

Government said Scotland can take a fast track to EU membership. They

:01:55.:01:59.

say negotiations on issues like currency could be completed by

:02:00.:02:03.

spring 2016. But Croatia's man in London said securing those issues

:02:04.:02:17.

could tie Scotland down. You want to have a balance between how much you

:02:18.:02:20.

want to opt out or prolong and what you can take right away because if

:02:21.:02:25.

you decide to prolong many things or ask for exceptions on many issues,

:02:26.:02:30.

you are not ready actually. So for us it has been a balance between

:02:31.:02:34.

these two things and I think it is important to understand this and I

:02:35.:02:41.

remember reading a study that my Austrian colleagues told me, this is

:02:42.:02:47.

not a negotiation, it is something else. After voting and independence,

:02:48.:02:51.

Croatia had a separate referendum on the EU. The Scottish Government has

:02:52.:02:54.

no plans to follow their example. Despite the recent crisis, Ivan

:02:55.:02:59.

Grdesic says that Europe will welcome new members. -- will welcome

:03:00.:03:05.

new members. He says getting in will only get tougher. This is a policy

:03:06.:03:09.

that will continue. It will be a policy that is more stringent than

:03:10.:03:13.

the one that we experienced. We had a much tougher negotiation process,

:03:14.:03:20.

Romania, Bulgaria. The new countries will have even more. The European

:03:21.:03:23.

Union is learning on a process of enlargement. SNP ministers insist

:03:24.:03:30.

that Scotland is not a new country. But with no direct precedent to

:03:31.:03:33.

guide them, those planning for Scotland to become the EU's 29th

:03:34.:03:37.

member and listening carefully on the 28th.

:03:38.:03:44.

Coming up after the news: More on what's making the headlines this

:03:45.:03:47.

weekend with our guests - former Labour special adviser Jeane Freeman

:03:48.:03:50.

and Stephen McGinty of the Scotsman. You're watching Sunday Politics

:03:51.:03:53.

Scotland and the time is just after midday. Let's cross now for the news

:03:54.:03:57.

from Reporting Scotland with Andrew Kerr.

:03:58.:04:03.

Good afternoon. The Justice Secretary has announced an

:04:04.:04:06.

investment of ?3 million in the services and facilities for women

:04:07.:04:12.

offenders. The money will be used to establish new community justice

:04:13.:04:15.

centres in Glasgow and Aberdeen, as well as expand services in Edinburgh

:04:16.:04:17.

and Dundee. Seven other projects will also receive funding.

:04:18.:04:21.

The constituency Labour Party in Falkirk will meet this afternoon for

:04:22.:04:24.

the first time since the chairman resigned from his post at Ineos.

:04:25.:04:29.

Steven Deans was at the centre of the Grangemouth industrial dispute

:04:30.:04:32.

last month. He'd been suspended while Ineos investigated his

:04:33.:04:35.

involvement in the row over the selection of a Labour candidate in

:04:36.:04:38.

the Falkirk Westminster constituency.

:04:39.:04:45.

An Edinburgh GP who wrote a book after spending fourteen months at a

:04:46.:04:48.

research station in the south pole has won Scotland's largest literary

:04:49.:04:51.

prize. Gavin Francis won the thirty-thousand pounds Scottish

:04:52.:04:53.

Mortgage Investment Trust Book of the Year for "Empire Antarctica".

:04:54.:05:04.

Let's take a look at the weather forecast.

:05:05.:05:08.

Good afternoon. I think today we see the transition into more settled

:05:09.:05:11.

weather. Tomorrow will be a fine day. For most it is dry and bright,

:05:12.:05:17.

good sunshine as well. We still have some of yesterday's rain across this

:05:18.:05:20.

piece corner. It will affect the Northern Isles. A touch of gale

:05:21.:05:26.

force winds at times. Sunshine along the West Coast brought in by that

:05:27.:05:31.

wind. It will feel cool in that brisk wind, everywhere, with highs

:05:32.:05:35.

of eight or nine Celsius but make the most of the sunshine.

:05:36.:05:41.

That is all for the moment. Thanks, Andrew. Now in a moment,

:05:42.:05:44.

we'll be discussing what's making the news at Holyrood and beyond, but

:05:45.:05:48.

first, let's take a look back at the week in 60 seconds.

:05:49.:05:58.

Scotland is habits of Internet exchange point, a giant Google will

:05:59.:06:04.

be located in Edinburgh, spindles and London, and then Manchester.

:06:05.:06:11.

The left Karen Hilton was sworn in at Holyrood. She won at the

:06:12.:06:19.

Dunfermline 31 week ago. -- new MSP Karen Hilton.

:06:20.:06:23.

Universities were disrupted by a 24-hour strike. Support the strike!

:06:24.:06:32.

Nicolas and support staff took the action over pay.

:06:33.:06:36.

It may be years before taxpayers can recover their multi-billion pound

:06:37.:06:41.

stake in the Royal Bank of Scotland. Toxic assets but they were incensed.

:06:42.:06:48.

Referendum in we'll contact the following powers has been proposed

:06:49.:06:57.

by the British Government. The Welsh minister says it cannot happen

:06:58.:07:02.

before the Barnett formula is on. -- is the following.

:07:03.:07:05.

From the week gone by to the week ahead, and our take on the stories

:07:06.:07:08.

that might make political ripples over the next seven days.

:07:09.:07:19.

Join me in the studio is Stephen McGinty from the Scotsman and public

:07:20.:07:25.

relations consultant. Good afternoon. Let's talk a little bit

:07:26.:07:29.

about policing, the issue that the talking about at the beginning of

:07:30.:07:38.

the programme. This is art. In 65 -- front desk or two close in 65

:07:39.:07:47.

officers. Is the finishing with the public? Is not think so. Luckily the

:07:48.:07:53.

third but crime and people in the law and figures for them. What has

:07:54.:07:57.

moved ahead is the perception of the body on the beat of the uniformed

:07:58.:08:01.

officer behind the counter. -- Bea Barclay on the beat. Number of

:08:02.:08:04.

people using these facilities has brought down. With technologies,

:08:05.:08:11.

Internet, e-mail, phone calls, Twitter, all of us are discovering

:08:12.:08:16.

that you can sometimes get a swifter response than from driving in your

:08:17.:08:21.

car, tracking down one of these stations and making the appointment.

:08:22.:08:26.

I think that everyone's nature to automatically put any form of cuts

:08:27.:08:30.

but if they have to be made, it would seem that this is one area

:08:31.:08:36.

that there is some give. I wonder if you would agree with that? I do. I

:08:37.:08:39.

think it is about the police catching up with the most people in

:08:40.:08:45.

Scotland are. Of course, if you are in an emergency situation, you phone

:08:46.:08:50.

naming them. Nobody is taking that away. -- before the emergency

:08:51.:08:55.

services. Also you can phone the nonemergency number. The thing that

:08:56.:08:59.

people forget is that people now do what they call the codes. If I not

:09:00.:09:07.

without an emergency but about a bit of a concern about children in my

:09:08.:09:13.

area or anti-social behaviour, and I wanted to speak to the police about

:09:14.:09:16.

that now working, they will make an appointment to come and see me in

:09:17.:09:22.

five developed. House calls. --, and see me in my home. They do". The

:09:23.:09:33.

idea that this is something away from local policing could not be

:09:34.:09:38.

further from the truth. There are all sorts of ways that they lead a

:09:39.:09:41.

life that the police to come up with -- catch up with. Let's talk about

:09:42.:09:48.

Grangemouth at Falkirk. This is the rumbling on. The Sunday Herald have

:09:49.:09:53.

what they say is an exclusive party members telling Johann Lamont to

:09:54.:09:59.

break her silence. There is to be as meeting today. They called for her

:10:00.:10:04.

to climb out of that meeting. We spoke to her and she is not growing.

:10:05.:10:09.

-- because of how to turn up at that meeting. We think she has been

:10:10.:10:14.

silent? I do. I know that she has given an exclusive interview to

:10:15.:10:17.

another paper. The problem is that people like us, they pay a lot of

:10:18.:10:21.

attention to some of the detail about this and the vast majority of

:10:22.:10:25.

the public have got better things to do with their time than that. It is

:10:26.:10:30.

all part of a general mood music which is a problem for Labour, I

:10:31.:10:35.

think, which is the important things that happen in Scotland, like

:10:36.:10:40.

Grangemouth, where we had a weekend of thinking that we were about to

:10:41.:10:44.

lose even the important facility, that Labour was silent and all that.

:10:45.:10:49.

-- lose a very important facility. It is hard for Labour to clean the

:10:50.:10:54.

stand up for Scotland when they are not visible. They let whoever it is

:10:55.:10:59.

from London to take what is going on and people from Scotland are not

:11:00.:11:02.

like that. It is from London to take what is going on and people from

:11:03.:11:05.

Scotland are not like that. It looks as if there is more of this story to

:11:06.:11:08.

come because we have Len McCluskey earlier with Andrew Neil saying that

:11:09.:11:10.

some new revelations in the Sunday Times are to, this is part of an old

:11:11.:11:19.

story. There are still questions remaining four Johann Lamont and

:11:20.:11:23.

live in London. It would seem that people are wanting to know what has

:11:24.:11:30.

gone on. Did you ever get to the bottom of it and then decide they

:11:31.:11:35.

did not want to win a further? Unite involved? Strong-arming people not

:11:36.:11:40.

to come forward? -- did not want it to go any further. The irony is that

:11:41.:11:44.

it has been such a disaster for all parties concerned that makes sense

:11:45.:11:49.

to try and get out exactly what happened. It is not going away. It

:11:50.:11:54.

is unfortunate for Scottish Labour because it is viewed as a reserved

:11:55.:11:57.

matter where they are on the sidelines waiting to see what London

:11:58.:12:01.

is going to do. That does not look good for anybody. Undoubtedly, the

:12:02.:12:06.

story is going to ramble on for another few days. More in that on

:12:07.:12:10.

the week to come. Also, the First Minister is off to China for a trade

:12:11.:12:17.

with that. It is one of several trade visits from not just him but

:12:18.:12:21.

other Scottish ministers. This week, Willie Rennie talked about the issue

:12:22.:12:26.

of human rights. It is always a difficult balancing act with China

:12:27.:12:29.

with trade and human rights. That is true. I think you need to

:12:30.:12:34.

understand, we need to understand a little but about how the Chinese

:12:35.:12:39.

cultural works. The importance they have want be losing face, as they

:12:40.:12:47.

might discredit. -- they have a losing. It would not work for us as

:12:48.:12:56.

the country to make statements about human rights when we are looking at

:12:57.:12:58.

a potential trading partner. That does not mean that you are seeing

:12:59.:13:03.

things behind the scenes, as has been the case with British diplomacy

:13:04.:13:05.

for years and years. In Scotland, I think the point is that we need a

:13:06.:13:10.

senior politicians, First Minister and others, to constantly making

:13:11.:13:16.

those visits and efforts, building up those relationships to become

:13:17.:13:19.

trusted, not only from the purpose of trade and our future prospects

:13:20.:13:24.

but also for we can have those discussions about what a civilised

:13:25.:13:29.

society looks like from the sea. Google 's discussions change

:13:30.:13:35.

anything? I think the evidence is clearly not. -- to those

:13:36.:13:38.

discussions. The Scottish Government wants to go over there and not its

:13:39.:13:43.

prime concern is not about raising the issue of Tibet or the Dalai

:13:44.:13:48.

Lama, it wants to increase exports, which have already doubled in the

:13:49.:13:52.

last five years to almost 500 million. That is the prime concern.

:13:53.:13:58.

Is that the right concern, ultimately? Some people think that

:13:59.:14:02.

actually what happens in China is maybe none of my business. We live

:14:03.:14:07.

in an interconnected society and I think that it's crucial that it is

:14:08.:14:13.

raised in some elements but there is that dilemma but can politicians be

:14:14.:14:16.

honest and say this is not the time and place for us to bring this up.

:14:17.:14:19.

Although the budget by saying they will have conversations in private?

:14:20.:14:24.

How expensive they are, we did not know. But I thank you all for coming

:14:25.:14:27.

in today. That's all from us this week. We'll be back a little later

:14:28.:14:31.

than usual next week, at 12:15pm, due to Remembrance Sunday. Until

:14:32.:14:32.

then, goodbye.

:14:33.:14:38.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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