10/11/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


10/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Gary Robertson with the latest political news. With deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman, UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a look at calls to remove the Sun's Page 3.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 10/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

:00:36.:00:41.

the war path, over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls

:00:42.:00:44.

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's "resurgent",

:00:45.:00:49.

though the polls do not show it. We will be talking to his right-hand

:00:50.:00:51.

woman, Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman.

:00:52.:00:55.

From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage won an award this week for

:00:56.:00:59.

being a political insurgent. We will be talking to the UKIP leader.

:01:00.:01:04.

And Harriet hates, hates, hates Page three. She wants rid of it, but what

:01:05.:01:10.

do you think? We sent Adam out with some balls. It is a better harmless.

:01:11.:01:24.

What do you think of people who feel it is a exploitive?

:01:25.:01:28.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland... As BAE announce job losses from its

:01:29.:01:32.

yards at Govan, Scotstoun and Rosyth, we ask could this be the way

:01:33.:01:35.

ahead for the shipbuilding industry in Scotland?

:01:36.:01:53.

Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick

:01:54.:01:59.

Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in

:02:00.:02:02.

Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a

:02:03.:02:12.

breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go

:02:13.:02:16.

far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has

:02:17.:02:19.

been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at

:02:20.:02:22.

a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this

:02:23.:02:25.

to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in

:02:26.:02:30.

the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying

:02:31.:02:38.

again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We

:02:39.:02:46.

will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind

:02:47.:02:49.

solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it

:02:50.:02:57.

will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with

:02:58.:03:01.

Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are

:03:02.:03:05.

looking the case for the kind of deal we are

:03:06.:03:10.

interests of the whole world, including

:03:11.:03:16.

interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic

:03:17.:03:16.

agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will

:03:17.:03:24.

threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the

:03:25.:03:27.

future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems

:03:28.:03:32.

future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the

:03:33.:03:38.

Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took

:03:39.:03:51.

the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough

:03:52.:03:58.

line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon. I

:03:59.:04:02.

am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the

:04:03.:04:06.

talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on

:04:07.:04:12.

Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.

:04:13.:04:21.

Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge

:04:22.:04:27.

saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this

:04:28.:04:33.

year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The

:04:34.:04:37.

year, we will see progress in these next round of talks will be at

:04:38.:04:44.

official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which

:04:45.:04:50.

has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly

:04:51.:04:55.

defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to

:04:56.:05:05.

go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they

:05:06.:05:14.

cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows

:05:15.:05:23.

the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that

:05:24.:05:28.

with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the

:05:29.:05:35.

Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could

:05:36.:05:42.

still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are

:05:43.:05:50.

interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are

:05:51.:05:54.

trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who

:05:55.:06:00.

are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is

:06:01.:06:06.

that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is

:06:07.:06:12.

prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about

:06:13.:06:20.

Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who

:06:21.:06:25.

is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel

:06:26.:06:30.

Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card

:06:31.:06:33.

list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp

:06:34.:06:37.

rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November

:06:38.:06:46.

the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt

:06:47.:06:50.

to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the

:06:51.:06:54.

Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all

:06:55.:07:00.

of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again - you

:07:01.:07:05.

talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.

:07:06.:07:10.

The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have

:07:11.:07:17.

not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are

:07:18.:07:22.

doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures

:07:23.:07:26.

you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the

:07:27.:07:31.

Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a

:07:32.:07:35.

rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly

:07:36.:07:40.

opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel

:07:41.:07:48.

Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had

:07:49.:07:57.

to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it

:07:58.:08:00.

will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is

:08:01.:08:05.

now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you

:08:06.:08:13.

say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on

:08:14.:08:16.

Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband

:08:17.:08:22.

offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on

:08:23.:08:26.

Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading

:08:27.:08:32.

towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I

:08:33.:08:36.

cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get

:08:37.:08:41.

over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there

:08:42.:08:45.

will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are

:08:46.:08:53.

going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which

:08:54.:08:58.

constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly.

:08:59.:09:02.

Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a

:09:03.:09:07.

realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will

:09:08.:09:13.

have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the

:09:14.:09:18.

May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as

:09:19.:09:24.

well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.

:09:25.:09:29.

Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has

:09:30.:09:39.

tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.

:09:40.:09:43.

The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP

:09:44.:09:49.

conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party

:09:50.:09:53.

is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with

:09:54.:09:59.

the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be

:10:00.:10:06.

joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's

:10:07.:10:12.

accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that

:10:13.:10:17.

would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no

:10:18.:10:25.

risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.

:10:26.:10:33.

There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this. We

:10:34.:10:40.

will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will

:10:41.:10:46.

have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the

:10:47.:10:50.

world and they will create jobs. The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi

:10:51.:11:00.

and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed

:11:01.:11:07.

concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we

:11:08.:11:12.

should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this

:11:13.:11:22.

a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was

:11:23.:11:28.

a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made

:11:29.:11:33.

the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say

:11:34.:11:38.

is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big

:11:39.:11:42.

businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we

:11:43.:11:47.

did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they

:11:48.:11:51.

wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,

:11:52.:11:56.

there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what

:11:57.:12:01.

the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation

:12:02.:12:06.

is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It

:12:07.:12:12.

depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are

:12:13.:12:18.

beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses

:12:19.:12:23.

are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any

:12:24.:12:27.

potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does

:12:28.:12:36.

repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the

:12:37.:12:43.

Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions

:12:44.:12:47.

to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1975,

:12:48.:12:56.

the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a

:12:57.:13:00.

renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered

:13:01.:13:03.

around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will

:13:04.:13:10.

happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by

:13:11.:13:17.

Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but

:13:18.:13:20.

they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going

:13:21.:13:24.

to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ

:13:25.:13:30.

them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will

:13:31.:13:34.

be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to

:13:35.:13:39.

break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.

:13:40.:13:52.

-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am

:13:53.:14:08.

not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the

:14:09.:14:13.

referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.

:14:14.:14:19.

Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining

:14:20.:14:23.

sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29

:14:24.:14:28.

million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is

:14:29.:14:39.

technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open

:14:40.:14:50.

door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29

:14:51.:15:01.

million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29

:15:02.:15:11.

million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million

:15:12.:15:18.

people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will

:15:19.:15:22.

do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70

:15:23.:15:29.

million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say

:15:30.:15:37.

that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 74

:15:38.:15:41.

without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another

:15:42.:15:46.

massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such

:15:47.:15:50.

a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your

:15:51.:16:01.

anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was

:16:02.:16:04.

representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it

:16:05.:16:09.

was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place

:16:10.:16:12.

this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won

:16:13.:16:17.

the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that

:16:18.:16:20.

doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put

:16:21.:16:24.

together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows

:16:25.:16:29.

that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped

:16:30.:16:34.

it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we

:16:35.:16:37.

are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.

:16:38.:16:41.

Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible

:16:42.:16:46.

and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and

:16:47.:16:51.

crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and

:16:52.:16:53.

subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration

:16:54.:16:56.

issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the

:16:57.:17:00.

European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians

:17:01.:17:04.

flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.

:17:05.:17:08.

Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good

:17:09.:17:13.

for you, it will stir things up? If you say to people in poor countries,

:17:14.:17:17.

you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system,

:17:18.:17:22.

claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You

:17:23.:17:26.

are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if

:17:27.:17:31.

only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk

:17:32.:17:35.

and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European

:17:36.:17:37.

election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.

:17:38.:17:42.

The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his

:17:43.:17:45.

leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He

:17:46.:17:49.

bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,

:17:50.:17:52.

delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech

:17:53.:17:57.

of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and

:17:58.:17:59.

promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The

:18:00.:18:05.

next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about

:18:06.:18:12.

how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the

:18:13.:18:18.

Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and

:18:19.:18:28.

character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between

:18:29.:18:31.

me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was

:18:32.:18:37.

Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the

:18:38.:18:41.

tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the

:18:42.:18:45.

tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the

:18:46.:18:50.

bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,

:18:51.:18:54.

here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime

:18:55.:18:57.

Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who

:18:58.:19:06.

repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party

:19:07.:19:12.

faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's

:19:13.:19:18.

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the

:19:19.:19:26.

bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off

:19:27.:19:31.

Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was

:19:32.:19:35.

stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think

:19:36.:19:40.

that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be

:19:41.:19:44.

justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually

:19:45.:19:47.

help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes

:19:48.:19:52.

that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being

:19:53.:19:57.

incentivised by the bedroom tax, so basically if you are a council

:19:58.:20:00.

tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,

:20:01.:20:05.

then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.

:20:06.:20:09.

That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96% of

:20:10.:20:13.

the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a

:20:14.:20:16.

smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore

:20:17.:20:19.

they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one

:20:20.:20:24.

spare bedroom, they are hit by ?700 a year extra to pay and that is

:20:25.:20:30.

completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for

:20:31.:20:34.

their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not

:20:35.:20:39.

depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?

:20:40.:20:43.

Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.

:20:44.:20:48.

What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of

:20:49.:20:53.

Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've

:20:54.:20:58.

come off benefits, of the 233,000 affected, it's about 11%. These

:20:59.:21:02.

people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit

:21:03.:21:06.

in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits

:21:07.:21:10.

who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them

:21:11.:21:14.

will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find

:21:15.:21:19.

work, or who find work where it's low-paid and need help with their

:21:20.:21:23.

rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their

:21:24.:21:27.

family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to

:21:28.:21:30.

move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,

:21:31.:21:35.

or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are

:21:36.:21:39.

low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because

:21:40.:21:44.

of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was

:21:45.:21:47.

commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change

:21:48.:21:51.

and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,

:21:52.:21:54.

some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have

:21:55.:21:58.

waited until you have got the independent research, that

:21:59.:22:00.

independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In

:22:01.:22:03.

fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their

:22:04.:22:08.

independent research before they bought into effect something and

:22:09.:22:12.

imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have

:22:13.:22:18.

known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could

:22:19.:22:22.

have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into

:22:23.:22:26.

smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from

:22:27.:22:30.

councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move

:22:31.:22:33.

into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should

:22:34.:22:37.

have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are

:22:38.:22:40.

absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into

:22:41.:22:44.

rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you

:22:45.:22:48.

can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies

:22:49.:22:53.

to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The

:22:54.:22:56.

justification for it, which is people will move, is completely

:22:57.:23:01.

bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare

:23:02.:23:06.

reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's

:23:07.:23:10.

welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are

:23:11.:23:15.

you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own

:23:16.:23:18.

supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job

:23:19.:23:21.

actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said

:23:22.:23:26.

that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a

:23:27.:23:30.

young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a

:23:31.:23:34.

job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as

:23:35.:23:38.

somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of

:23:39.:23:43.

unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue

:23:44.:23:46.

about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need

:23:47.:23:51.

support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't

:23:52.:23:54.

have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts

:23:55.:24:00.

the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --

:24:01.:24:04.

substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of

:24:05.:24:08.

benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour

:24:09.:24:13.

must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,

:24:14.:24:18.

redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and

:24:19.:24:23.

the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off, we

:24:24.:24:26.

are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me

:24:27.:24:29.

saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think

:24:30.:24:34.

that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've

:24:35.:24:37.

been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take

:24:38.:24:41.

them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we

:24:42.:24:47.

showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles

:24:48.:24:51.

have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the

:24:52.:24:54.

Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own

:24:55.:24:59.

personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to

:25:00.:25:03.

disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody

:25:04.:25:08.

else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you

:25:09.:25:11.

the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the

:25:12.:25:17.

Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...

:25:18.:25:23.

But you're... All those who've won their seats against the

:25:24.:25:25.

Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't

:25:26.:25:30.

always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,

:25:31.:25:35.

the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and

:25:36.:25:41.

these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy

:25:42.:25:47.

grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,

:25:48.:25:50.

private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming

:25:51.:25:54.

year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow

:25:55.:25:58.

faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was

:25:59.:26:01.

flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow?

:26:02.:26:06.

Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit

:26:07.:26:11.

on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding

:26:12.:26:14.

the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that

:26:15.:26:18.

what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the

:26:19.:26:22.

recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I

:26:23.:26:25.

understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are

:26:26.:26:33.

no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the

:26:34.:26:36.

growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and

:26:37.:26:39.

living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next

:26:40.:26:44.

year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to

:26:45.:26:47.

rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not

:26:48.:26:50.

switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way

:26:51.:26:54.

along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and

:26:55.:26:58.

we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic

:26:59.:27:02.

policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns

:27:03.:27:07.

people have and recognise that they are struggling with the

:27:08.:27:10.

cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of

:27:11.:27:15.

living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I

:27:16.:27:21.

hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,

:27:22.:27:25.

for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are

:27:26.:27:28.

worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader

:27:29.:27:33.

measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that

:27:34.:27:35.

decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the

:27:36.:27:41.

country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living

:27:42.:27:47.

standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line?

:27:48.:27:51.

There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National

:27:52.:27:52.

Health Service, about the problems Health Service, about the problems

:27:53.:27:57.

that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I

:27:58.:28:01.

can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other

:28:02.:28:07.

question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed

:28:08.:28:12.

Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks

:28:13.:28:17.

like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will

:28:18.:28:21.

a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign

:28:22.:28:25.

up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter

:28:26.:28:29.

does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the

:28:30.:28:32.

newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My

:28:33.:28:37.

question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do

:28:38.:28:40.

with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the

:28:41.:28:45.

wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The

:28:46.:28:48.

newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,

:28:49.:28:52.

Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are

:28:53.:28:57.

setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it

:28:58.:29:01.

is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,

:29:02.:29:05.

we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is

:29:06.:29:09.

that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really

:29:10.:29:12.

turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll

:29:13.:29:17.

sort things out, leave it to us, then they have sorted things out but

:29:18.:29:21.

a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is

:29:22.:29:25.

check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent

:29:26.:29:28.

system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee

:29:29.:29:32.

things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that.

:29:33.:29:35.

That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't

:29:36.:29:40.

force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by

:29:41.:29:48.

Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick

:29:49.:29:51.

with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution

:29:52.:29:55.

or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been

:29:56.:29:59.

dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That's 43

:30:00.:30:05.

years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent

:30:06.:30:09.

Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We

:30:10.:30:27.

have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What

:30:28.:30:41.

do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and

:30:42.:30:48.

exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go.

:30:49.:31:00.

I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your

:31:01.:31:15.

mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men

:31:16.:31:21.

get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.

:31:22.:31:34.

Dashes-macro know what your age. Page three girls, should they stay

:31:35.:31:43.

or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page

:31:44.:31:47.

or go? I am not bothered. There are three of the Sun newspaper every

:31:48.:31:50.

day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40

:31:51.:31:59.

years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been

:32:00.:32:07.

long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to

:32:08.:32:12.

encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my

:32:13.:32:18.

children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see

:32:19.:32:25.

the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can

:32:26.:32:31.

turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I

:32:32.:32:44.

think the council should do something about their car parks!

:32:45.:32:50.

Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,

:32:51.:32:59.

that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,

:33:00.:33:03.

lots of women saying In Maginot my grandfather opening

:33:04.:33:21.

the Palin seen media. What do you think about people who

:33:22.:33:41.

say it should be banned? They are idiots. The Ph.D. On Friday was from

:33:42.:33:57.

Bedford. What you think of our decision to be on page three? Did

:33:58.:34:10.

she make Bedford proud? I think it would be pretty hard to make Bedford

:34:11.:34:19.

Road! So, easily victory for those who think it should stay. Most

:34:20.:34:32.

people do not appear to clear. I have not argued for it to be

:34:33.:34:38.

banned. I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. I do not think the

:34:39.:34:52.

content of newspapers should be subject to subject to anything out

:34:53.:34:57.

with the laws of the land. However, as someone from outer space arrived

:34:58.:35:08.

in the 21st-century and saw that as the depiction of women, they would

:35:09.:35:16.

think that they did not have much of a role in society to play. But the

:35:17.:35:23.

newspaper does not longer have the political importance of the seals

:35:24.:35:26.

that it had. Are people not just voting with their feet enemy, the

:35:27.:35:36.

marketers sorting this out? Until such time as they do not have this

:35:37.:35:42.

any more, I am entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am

:35:43.:35:53.

happy to establish you do not want to ban it, although I think some of

:35:54.:35:58.

your words many years ago did imply that, but do you think people should

:35:59.:36:03.

boycott the newspaper? No, I have never said it should be banned. I

:36:04.:36:10.

have not cold for an official boycott either. The women's

:36:11.:36:19.

movement, of which I am part of, this is not about a politician

:36:20.:36:25.

trying to suppress the press, we see that women can do better than taking

:36:26.:36:30.

their clothes off and flashing their knickers in the newspaper. Why do

:36:31.:36:42.

you not do something about it? I am, by speaking out about it and

:36:43.:36:47.

supporting the campaign is for it to be got rid of. To viewers, would you

:36:48.:36:54.

like to say to them, as long as this is in the newspaper, you should not

:36:55.:37:01.

buy it. I am not arguing about a boycott of the newspaper. I am

:37:02.:37:06.

saying to them, wake up to the role of women in society, which you

:37:07.:37:11.

should be doing. They have changed it industrially, which is where

:37:12.:37:15.

Ripper murder came from, why can they not in this country? -- report

:37:16.:37:18.

Murdoch. Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday

:37:19.:37:29.

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme...

:37:30.:37:31.

The Clyde shipyards are saved from closure, but what is the future for

:37:32.:37:35.

an industry heavily dependent on military contracts? The politicians

:37:36.:37:44.

say the shipbuilding industry must diversify to prosper. But how

:37:45.:37:48.

realistic is that? And how much influence do you have

:37:49.:37:52.

over politicians? A think tank says decision makers need to listen to a

:37:53.:37:58.

wider range of opinions. If you have a small group just the elite of

:37:59.:38:06.

society, making it policy on their own views, and do not engage with

:38:07.:38:11.

the wider population, you get bad policy.

:38:12.:38:15.

For shipyard workers on the Clyde and Rosyth and their families it has

:38:16.:38:19.

been a difficult week. 800 of them will lose their jobs and, of course,

:38:20.:38:22.

there has been furious debate about whether the contracts for the new

:38:23.:38:25.

global combat ships will come here if there is a Yes vote in the

:38:26.:38:29.

referendum. To help provide workers with future job certainty, there

:38:30.:38:32.

have been calls to diversify the industry and emulate Norway's

:38:33.:38:34.

renaissance in shipbuilding. With a look at whether that is realistic,

:38:35.:38:43.

here is Andrew Kerr. The soul of the clay this week has been one of

:38:44.:38:49.

realism, the other than the spear. -- this beer.

:38:50.:38:57.

But what about the aspirational view of moving on and relying on

:38:58.:39:04.

something other than just contracts from the Royal Navy? What

:39:05.:39:14.

discussions has she had about diversification of work on the River

:39:15.:39:22.

Clyde? We need to diversify, with nearly procurement as part of that,

:39:23.:39:26.

but looking also at how we could improve exports. There are other

:39:27.:39:32.

countries outwith Scotland to do this very well. The Conservative

:39:33.:39:38.

leader asked what assistance there was for them to compete. Soon, we

:39:39.:39:54.

may have do rely on contract out with the Royal Navy. If you wanted

:39:55.:40:01.

to go into the civilian market, you need hundreds of millions of

:40:02.:40:08.

investment to get the right tools into these yards. Secondly, you

:40:09.:40:14.

require a very good cooperative relationship between unions and

:40:15.:40:20.

management. Thirdly, you have to get the right kind of shape, which is

:40:21.:40:27.

much more difficult. Even in its heyday, the industry went through

:40:28.:40:32.

its ups and downs. It is certainly a while since big non-Navy vessels

:40:33.:40:39.

were launched on the quiet. This is the last civilian shipbuilder on the

:40:40.:40:46.

Clyde. It is hard to believe that the once powerful shipbuilding

:40:47.:40:55.

industry had been reduced to just one yard. There have been civilian

:40:56.:41:10.

shipping built here. There were two ferries built for Caledonian

:41:11.:41:13.

MacBrayne. Unfortunately, the companies latest model is getting

:41:14.:41:22.

built in Germany. We need shipyards which are resilient. When the market

:41:23.:41:26.

is not in demand, they need to be able to be resilient in terms of

:41:27.:41:32.

doing shipped rapier, ship maintenance and if you look at other

:41:33.:41:36.

industries, the likes of wind farm installation. That is a big ask and

:41:37.:41:44.

experts agree, but normally is being trumpeted as a place which Scotland

:41:45.:41:49.

could emulate. 100 ships were built there last year. They have these

:41:50.:41:54.

special is building oil supply vessels and a large customer base.

:41:55.:42:03.

Could we do it? It is difficult. It is not something you could not do,

:42:04.:42:08.

but it is difficult. It requires long-term planning. Shipbuilding

:42:09.:42:16.

moves enlarge cycles, so there is a need for several different

:42:17.:42:22.

measures, both from the government and from the private sector.

:42:23.:42:27.

Professor Hagan said that determination to succeed means the

:42:28.:42:31.

yards union and government must work together on a long-term plan. Eight

:42:32.:42:37.

to claim 20 years. The Navy work may be sailing down the river, but

:42:38.:42:43.

people here will have two cooperate here to recapture some of the past

:42:44.:42:48.

glories of the Clyde. With me now in the studio is the

:42:49.:42:51.

Labour MP for Glasgow South West, Ian Davidson and the SNP's Stewart

:42:52.:42:55.

Maxwell. And from our Edinburgh studio, the Liberal Democrat leader,

:42:56.:43:02.

Willie Rennie. This debate is now being seen through the prism of the

:43:03.:43:14.

independence debate. The defence minister said exactly the opposite.

:43:15.:43:19.

He said contracts could quite acceptably carry on in an

:43:20.:43:22.

independent Scotland after a yes vote. Clearly, what Alistair Nichols

:43:23.:43:29.

has been doing this week as scaremongering them into voting no,

:43:30.:43:35.

on the false promise that this would offer job security. This was not a

:43:36.:43:44.

word decision. This was the decision of the company along with the

:43:45.:43:47.

government. The best place in the only place from 2014 on words to

:43:48.:43:53.

build complex warships will be the Clyde. You have talked about a break

:43:54.:44:05.

clause about the type 26 frigates if there is a yes vote. How does that

:44:06.:44:10.

represent the best interests of your constituents? There has not been any

:44:11.:44:17.

contract awarded. It would've been a great step forward of the ad been

:44:18.:44:22.

awarded. Talks I have had with ministers and the Ministry of the

:44:23.:44:27.

defence, they want to take the risk out of this. And this was discussed

:44:28.:44:34.

with the unions when I put this forward, was to have a break

:44:35.:44:39.

clause, that in the unlikely event of Scotland voting for separation,

:44:40.:44:42.

they would be able to pool this back. You are giving comfort to

:44:43.:44:50.

both. No contract has been awarded. Under my proposal, the shipyards in

:44:51.:44:56.

Scotland would of had the contract, but the Ministry of Defence would

:44:57.:45:01.

have the comfort of in the event of separation, they would have the

:45:02.:45:08.

choice of pulling this back. You should be not representing the

:45:09.:45:11.

Ministry of Defence, you should be representing Scottish workers. The

:45:12.:45:22.

problem is that the MoD and the UK Government have quite deliberately

:45:23.:45:26.

decided that the contract will not be awarded until after the

:45:27.:45:33.

referendum decision is known. Quite clearly. Would you recommend a break

:45:34.:45:40.

clause? We should get the design properly constructed before we award

:45:41.:45:44.

the contract. That would not be until after the referendum. The 2014

:45:45.:45:50.

referendum is not the date when independence would be declared,

:45:51.:45:53.

though. But we would know when we were going. Whether we were going to

:45:54.:45:57.

be an independent country or not. The rest of the UK could decide

:45:58.:46:04.

whether to continue on its policy of building warships outside of its

:46:05.:46:09.

entries. Would you encourage the MoD to continue building warships in

:46:10.:46:13.

Scotland? If I was lucky enough to be a politician in an independent

:46:14.:46:16.

Scotland, I would fight for Scotland. But I would be dealt a

:46:17.:46:22.

very difficult hands. I would not be in a very strong position because

:46:23.:46:25.

the UK does not build a warships outside of its boundary and never

:46:26.:46:29.

has since the Second World War. Should Maxwell is wrong when he says

:46:30.:46:34.

Portsmouth will be closed. It will not be closed until after the

:46:35.:46:36.

referendum, so the shipbuilding capacity in England will remain and

:46:37.:46:41.

could easily be built back up again. His approach is very complacent. It

:46:42.:46:46.

is not serving the yards on the Clyde very well. The point is that

:46:47.:46:51.

without this Article 346 exemption which is used by the Scottish

:46:52.:46:54.

Government, the UK Government, to allow them to just build a big

:46:55.:47:00.

warships in the UK, that those contracts would have to go out to

:47:01.:47:04.

tender, which would be Scotland, Scotland Yard would have to

:47:05.:47:09.

tender... That is not the case. It is shameful of politicians who are

:47:10.:47:15.

trying to pretend that Article 346 says that you must build warships

:47:16.:47:21.

exempt from this procurement build outside your boundaries. That is not

:47:22.:47:26.

what it says. The decision would be for the UK Government in the

:47:27.:47:29.

circumstances to decide where is the best place to build it. It does net

:47:30.:47:32.

send you should now get in your own territory.

:47:33.:47:36.

# It does not say you should build it in your own territory. You cannot

:47:37.:47:49.

guarantee that. There is nothing there that you can guarantee. I look

:47:50.:47:56.

at the defenceman Mr Hu said this and Philip Hammond, the Secretary of

:47:57.:47:58.

State for defence in the UK Government, who are repeatedly,

:47:59.:48:01.

repeatedly on Westminster, would he cancel the order -- who was asked

:48:02.:48:09.

repeatedly. He sensibly refused to say. Yellow like refused to say he

:48:10.:48:14.

would cancel the order because he has not placed one. He has been

:48:15.:48:19.

quite deliberate in placing it -- in not placing it. They refused to

:48:20.:48:27.

place it. What we have to understand is that even if he waited be frowned

:48:28.:48:33.

through the legalities of it, it is inconceivable that a UK Government,

:48:34.:48:39.

the longer representing Scotland, would then actually placed orders in

:48:40.:48:44.

Scotland. Why is it inconceivable? Scotland would not become a threat.

:48:45.:48:50.

They would have responsibility to protect their own voters and

:48:51.:48:58.

electorate. They spend money overseas, only when they have

:48:59.:49:03.

decided that it is not something that they want as a sovereign

:49:04.:49:07.

capability. The reality is that if the placed this order on the Clyde,

:49:08.:49:12.

it would kill off Portsmouth. The UK would then have no further

:49:13.:49:17.

capability for building complex warships. They have said that they

:49:18.:49:22.

want to have that. The only way of having it is keeping the capability

:49:23.:49:26.

by giving the type 26 contract to Portsmouth or indeed somewhere else

:49:27.:49:30.

in the remaining United Kingdom. Is it time for cooperation between the

:49:31.:49:33.

two governments to try to secure some kind of diversified future for

:49:34.:49:43.

the shipyards? Absolutely. We must move to a plan B. We have to look at

:49:44.:49:47.

the new future for the shipyards. This is a wake-up call for everybody

:49:48.:49:53.

to say, what is the plan B? It is a long-term prospect, we have to put

:49:54.:49:55.

one in place to ensure proper diversification. We have military

:49:56.:50:02.

contracts but we also have other contracts that we can pursue. We can

:50:03.:50:07.

diversified into the renewable and oil industry. There can be a bright

:50:08.:50:10.

future for the shipyards but it cannot just be waiting on Ministry

:50:11.:50:15.

of Defence contracts all the time. Is no way that beaten for shipyards?

:50:16.:50:21.

It was in your piece before our interview. -- is no way the beaten

:50:22.:50:35.

-- is Norway the beacon? They have companies that put their orders into

:50:36.:50:38.

the Norwegian yards which helps Norway, so Norway is not necessarily

:50:39.:50:44.

example we will be able to follow. Is it time for intergovernmental

:50:45.:50:48.

cooperation to secure something of diversified future? Of course. There

:50:49.:50:54.

has been much work and talk about diverse occasion. It is quite

:50:55.:50:59.

difficult to actually match military capability with civilian

:51:00.:51:03.

capability, it is not an easy thing to match together into one shipyard

:51:04.:51:06.

and that is why the shipyards have found it incredibly difficult and at

:51:07.:51:12.

last. The SNP's site the fuel tankers. But the British shipyards

:51:13.:51:19.

did not even compete for that contract. It was Korea in a much

:51:20.:51:28.

better position. -- ESN P cite the fuel tankers. The point that was

:51:29.:51:33.

being made during the week was that it was the 40th anniversary of Margo

:51:34.:51:36.

MacDonald winning the government by-election. At that .1 of the

:51:37.:51:39.

issues was the future of the shipyards. That investigation of the

:51:40.:51:44.

year does not seem to have worked. I have been involved with successive

:51:45.:51:48.

management and union in the Clyde about the question of diversified

:51:49.:51:52.

agent. It has never worked. It is important to look at Norway. When

:51:53.:51:58.

Norway has got five frigates built in Spain, they have submarines built

:51:59.:52:02.

and designed in Germany, they have just ordered a logistics ship from

:52:03.:52:06.

Korea. The boots that the build in Norway, they are not really ships,

:52:07.:52:11.

most of them are very small. Many could fit inside the studio. That is

:52:12.:52:15.

not the scale of the shipbuilding industry and indeed the holes are

:52:16.:52:21.

overwhelmingly built abroad and then taken to Norway. We are not

:52:22.:52:24.

comparing like with like. I'd be that without a core MoD order book,

:52:25.:52:31.

there will be little opportunity. -- and fear that without a core MoD

:52:32.:52:38.

order bit. Joint procurement is the norm across the world. We could be

:52:39.:52:42.

involved with that. That would be sensible, especially the type 26,

:52:43.:52:47.

and MoD orders military hardware from all around the road. They spent

:52:48.:52:52.

$3.5 billion in the last five years. The fact is, buying things abroad is

:52:53.:52:57.

normal. Joint procurement is normal. The best ways to build ships in the

:52:58.:53:01.

British Isles is in the Clyde and that should be the future. Thank you

:53:02.:53:07.

very much for joining us. Here's a question - how much

:53:08.:53:10.

influence do you feel you have over the decisions made by politicians?

:53:11.:53:13.

Most local services are provided by councils, yet typically turnout in

:53:14.:53:16.

elections for them are very low - around 32%. How much of that is down

:53:17.:53:21.

to apathy, or is it a feeling that no matter who you vote for, your

:53:22.:53:24.

ballot will make little difference to the decisions those elected will

:53:25.:53:27.

take? Increasing participation in the decisions that affect our lives

:53:28.:53:30.

has been occupying the thoughts of one think tank. So is this a problem

:53:31.:53:34.

just for politicians or should it concern us all?

:53:35.:53:38.

Scottish government plans to extend local democracy took a hit this week

:53:39.:53:41.

after ministers announced that they were to abandon the idea of directly

:53:42.:53:46.

elected health boards. The Health Secretary admitted that turnout for

:53:47.:53:49.

the election in one area was only 10%. Yet the idea behind this team

:53:50.:53:53.

was to give communities a greater say in how their health services are

:53:54.:53:57.

organised. So when did this attempt to involve the local community feel?

:53:58.:54:03.

How much say do voters in Scotland really want in the decisions? The

:54:04.:54:06.

Jimmy Reid Foundation is one organisation evaluating local

:54:07.:54:09.

democracy. It recently established a commission to look at how a wider

:54:10.:54:13.

range of opinions and experiences can be taken into account when it

:54:14.:54:17.

comes to policy-making decisions. A report from the commission, released

:54:18.:54:22.

today, says access by citizens to the political decision-making

:54:23.:54:27.

process is limited to the point of being nonexistent. Robert Mugabe

:54:28.:54:30.

nine, director of the Jimmy Reid Foundation, says they have noticed a

:54:31.:54:33.

worrying trend when it comes to who had influence in Scottish politics.

:54:34.:54:38.

What we discovered was that the 70% of the population who live on

:54:39.:54:42.

?25,000 or less per year only make up about the percent of the people

:54:43.:54:47.

who are invited to sit in public bodies are giving advice to

:54:48.:54:50.

parliamentary inquiries. This massive imbalance clearly suggested

:54:51.:54:53.

there was a problem in who was getting to influence politics and

:54:54.:54:56.

getting involved in the political process and so the commission is

:54:57.:54:59.

attempting to question how we can improve this situation. Professor

:55:00.:55:04.

Richard Crowley as an academic advisor to working group on

:55:05.:55:06.

strengthening local democracy. He said there needs to be wider

:55:07.:55:09.

engagement across layers of government. Review is that the

:55:10.:55:15.

capacity for local people to make decisions about matters which are

:55:16.:55:19.

specific to a given area is something that should be recognised,

:55:20.:55:21.

that there are a range of services were variation is appropriate and

:55:22.:55:28.

good and therefore we should recreate or create the opportunity

:55:29.:55:30.

for that to occur through the decisions that councils and local

:55:31.:55:37.

people make, maybe even at layers below local council but not that

:55:38.:55:40.

central government level. But is there a happy medium where citizens

:55:41.:55:44.

feel involved and politicians listen? Good Scotland pioneer a new

:55:45.:55:49.

way of thinking? This report, if it was accepted, to be one of the most

:55:50.:55:53.

radical changes in government we have seen in hundreds of years. The

:55:54.:55:56.

idea that the government becomes something which is done by people

:55:57.:56:00.

and not two people would be an enormous change in the way that we

:56:01.:56:07.

think about and understand politics. Chair of the Commission on Fair

:56:08.:56:10.

Access to Political Influence for the Jimmy Reid Foundation, Larry

:56:11.:56:13.

Flanagan, joins me now. Good afternoon. It is a fairly weighty

:56:14.:56:15.

book. You come to the inclusion that the political access to the decision

:56:16.:56:19.

making process is limited to the point of being nonexistent. How do

:56:20.:56:24.

you measure this? It is a general summary of the feedback we got from

:56:25.:56:28.

a number of organisations. You mentioned in your introduction the

:56:29.:56:31.

low level of participation in the election process. Robin mentioned a

:56:32.:56:37.

number of people earning low wages who actually participate in

:56:38.:56:44.

Parliament committees. When you gather the evidence, it is clear

:56:45.:56:47.

that there is a fairly strong degree of disillusionment with people at

:56:48.:56:52.

all process. If there is disillusionment and disengagement,

:56:53.:56:56.

is that the same as seeing people are disinterested? Not at all. One

:56:57.:57:01.

route points is that people are very interested in political issues and

:57:02.:57:05.

political issues are important for people in terms of their daily

:57:06.:57:09.

lives. What we have to try to do and we hope the report is a positive

:57:10.:57:12.

contribution to the discussion, is we have to ensure that our path with

:57:13.:57:16.

that enable ordinary people do feel that they can influence

:57:17.:57:20.

decision-making and participate in the process. How sure are you that

:57:21.:57:23.

people want to participate and they want a role? Isn't there are many

:57:24.:57:29.

people in the population who say, we let these people to make the

:57:30.:57:33.

decisions, get on with it. One of the things that the report

:57:34.:57:35.

highlighted was that in other European countries there is a much

:57:36.:57:40.

higher level of participation amongst the population. There is

:57:41.:57:44.

nothing to suggest Scottish people somehow have a different approach to

:57:45.:57:48.

decision-making about their lives. I think we have developed a process in

:57:49.:57:51.

Scotland and to some extent the UK where people do feel

:57:52.:57:54.

disenfranchised, they do feel impotent in the face of

:57:55.:57:57.

decision-making processes. What we are suggesting in the report is a

:57:58.:58:00.

number of ways of taking this forward. Some of them are relatively

:58:01.:58:04.

small-scale, they might be about local decisions in the community.

:58:05.:58:09.

Some of them will have an impact on our whole system. And if we can get

:58:10.:58:13.

agreement to take some of these ideals forward, we will see a

:58:14.:58:16.

groundswell of involvement and people participating. What is the

:58:17.:58:21.

role of politicians in this lack of participation? Are some of them

:58:22.:58:28.

reluctant to share power? At the most politicians become engaged in

:58:29.:58:31.

politics for the best of motives. They want to see a fairer society. I

:58:32.:58:39.

think the proposals we have in the commission report and around

:58:40.:58:42.

involving more people in the consultation process, for example,

:58:43.:58:47.

in terms of influencing budget decisions, I think that would be to

:58:48.:58:50.

the benefit of politicians. We were told when the Scottish Parliament

:58:51.:58:54.

was set up that it would do things differently from Westminster. I you

:58:55.:58:57.

suggesting that has not happened? A lot of consultation goes on. The

:58:58.:59:04.

Scottish Parliament is in the better placed than the UK Parliament. In

:59:05.:59:07.

number of hopes and aspirations and the Scottish Parliament have

:59:08.:59:12.

floundered. -- a number of hopes and aspirations. Party politics dominate

:59:13.:59:17.

the Scottish Parliament. We had been hoping for a more consensual

:59:18.:59:24.

approach. Robin highlighted the fact that we have the facility for

:59:25.:59:29.

committees to hear evidence but that is for a elite section of people. It

:59:30.:59:34.

is often not for the people who would be the main recipients of the

:59:35.:59:37.

decision-making process. They might be well-organised which is why they

:59:38.:59:40.

have access to the politicians in the first place. It is far harder to

:59:41.:59:46.

canvass a lot of youth and come to a consensus rather than speaking to

:59:47.:59:50.

organise groups. As things stand, it is difficult for politicians to have

:59:51.:59:53.

that access will stop one of the ideas we suggest is people jury 's.

:59:54.:59:59.

That would actually facilitate politicians. They would have access

:00:00.:00:03.

to a broad range of opinion, that opinion would be supported. The

:00:04.:00:08.

mechanisms here are not about attacking the current system, it is

:00:09.:00:12.

about expanding the role of people in that decision-making process. Is

:00:13.:00:19.

there a danger you could offer too much democracy? There is never late

:00:20.:00:29.

year goes by when we do not have elections, whether it is for the

:00:30.:00:32.

Council, Westminster, Scottish Parliament or Europe. Good people

:00:33.:00:40.

just be a bit bored of the whole process? There is the danger of

:00:41.:00:47.

election fatigue. There are different ways of influencing

:00:48.:00:55.

thinking. The health boards are one aspect of that. But if you took some

:00:56.:01:01.

of the health board decisions and used them, the idea of a

:01:02.:01:09.

cross-section of the public being involved in it, you would be able to

:01:10.:01:17.

justify these decisions, not by electoral process, but by

:01:18.:01:22.

consultation. The would-be de-signed to encourage involvement by the

:01:23.:01:29.

population. You want politicians to look at this is a new way of

:01:30.:01:35.

thinking. If this idea that people are not engaged, will there be a

:01:36.:01:42.

danger that everyone loses interest? There is always a danger of people

:01:43.:01:46.

do not have faith in the democratic process. We have had riots in the

:01:47.:01:51.

past in the United Kingdom and part of that was around the alienation of

:01:52.:01:57.

young people. We need a society where people having gauged with

:01:58.:02:02.

politics and trust politicians. Any surveys that commercial but

:02:03.:02:07.

politicians, the level of trust accorded to them, is that an

:02:08.:02:14.

all-time low. But this has to be real. People have to be involved in

:02:15.:02:18.

the process. The current system is not working and we have suggested a

:02:19.:02:24.

number of ways forward. We think they are is an opportune time no for

:02:25.:02:28.

everyone to have a look at this. Thank you for coming in.

:02:29.:02:33.

Coming up after the news, we will mull over the big news of the week

:02:34.:02:37.

and what will make the headlines in the days to come with our guests,

:02:38.:02:40.

Lucy Adams of The Herald and Spectator blogger Alex Massie.

:02:41.:02:43.

You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland and the time is coming up

:02:44.:02:47.

for 1.30pm. So, let us cross now for the news from Reporting Scotland,

:02:48.:02:49.

with Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. Thousands of people

:02:50.:02:52.

across Scotland fell silent this morning to remember the dead of two

:02:53.:02:54.

world wars and conflicts since. The First Minister and Secretary of

:02:55.:03:04.

State for Scotland laid wreaths at the Stone of Remembrance in

:03:05.:03:08.

Edinburgh. Meanwhile, hundreds of people also marked the two minutes'

:03:09.:03:11.

silence in the ceremony at the Cenotaph in Glasgow.

:03:12.:03:18.

Former Defence Secretary Lord Reid has warned that UK warships will not

:03:19.:03:22.

be built in Scotland if there is a Yes vote in the referendum. Lord

:03:23.:03:25.

Reid said the Type 26 vessels earmarked for the Glasgow yards

:03:26.:03:29.

would not be built in "a foreign country". The Deputy First Minister

:03:30.:03:33.

has rebuffed that, pointing out the Clyde will be the only place where

:03:34.:03:40.

these ships can be built. A new idea to improve the dental

:03:41.:03:43.

health of Scottish school children is being hailed as a success.

:03:44.:03:47.

Glasgow University researchers found the Childsmile programme has saved

:03:48.:03:50.

more than ?6 million in dental bills. The scheme involves staff at

:03:51.:03:54.

every nursery offering free, supervised tooth-brushing each day.

:03:55.:04:01.

Now, let us get the forecast with Gillian Smart.

:04:02.:04:06.

Good afternoon. Some glorious spells of autumnal sunshine around. It was

:04:07.:04:16.

a cold start, but that has no clear that it will be blue sky and

:04:17.:04:21.

sunshine for most others. A bit more in the way of cloud across the

:04:22.:04:28.

northern parts of the country. That will be the exception, because

:04:29.:04:32.

elsewhere around the country ever be dry and bright with good spells of

:04:33.:04:37.

sunshine. I temperature is of eight Celsius.

:04:38.:04:41.

That is it for the moment. Our next update is at 6.10pm.

:04:42.:04:46.

Now, in a moment, we will be discussing the big events coming up

:04:47.:04:49.

this week at Holyrood, but first, let us take a look back at the Week

:04:50.:04:58.

in Sixty Seconds. The row over alleged vote rigging and Falkirk

:04:59.:05:03.

rumbled on. Alistair Darling said that if the police do not pursue the

:05:04.:05:09.

matter, there should be a fresh enquiry, with results published.

:05:10.:05:15.

Payday loan companies defended the policies in front of the committee

:05:16.:05:23.

of MPs. Glasgow 2014 organisers said there has been a sensational demand

:05:24.:05:26.

for tickets for the Commonwealth Games next year. Over 90% have

:05:27.:05:33.

already been sold. The Scottish government published proposals about

:05:34.:05:41.

revitalising the City centres. The Church of Scotland added its voice

:05:42.:05:48.

for the armed forces to stop recruiting 16 and 17-year-olds and

:05:49.:05:53.

plans to introduce gay marriage won the support of the equal

:05:54.:05:56.

opportunities committee in Holyrood.

:05:57.:06:04.

What is in store for the week ahead? And who is making the headlines

:06:05.:06:08.

today? Let us take a look. My guests this week are Lucy Adams

:06:09.:06:11.

of The Herald and The Spectator blogger Alex Massie. Let us start

:06:12.:06:19.

with shipbuilding. We will find out the next couple of days how the job

:06:20.:06:26.

losses will impact on the Clyde and Rosyth. In the Sunday Herald, there

:06:27.:06:32.

is a piecing that a vote to leave the United Kingdom will put into

:06:33.:06:39.

doubt we're ships will be built in the future. Nicola starred Jim hits

:06:40.:06:45.

back. Does this move anything forward? No, both sides are claiming

:06:46.:06:53.

a certainty over something which is uncertain. Uncertainty leads to

:06:54.:07:01.

project fear and scaremongering that we hear the yes campaign accusing

:07:02.:07:06.

opponents of. The honest answer of this from both sides as that we do

:07:07.:07:11.

not know what is going to happen to Royal Navy ship contracts in the

:07:12.:07:16.

event of Scotland being independent. Nicholas Dudgeon is correct to say

:07:17.:07:20.

they probably could still be built in Glasgow, but there is a big

:07:21.:07:24.

difference between good and probably would. I think it is more probable

:07:25.:07:29.

they would not be built in Glasgow, but it is not impossible that they

:07:30.:07:35.

could be. More importantly, this is the sort of thing that gets wrapped

:07:36.:07:39.

into the independence campaign when it probably should not be. If you

:07:40.:07:45.

are going to decide your vote on the basis of shipbuilding on the Clyde,

:07:46.:07:49.

it is a narrow basis for you to make your mind up, unless you are a

:07:50.:07:59.

worker in that industry. It is enormously emotive. We know that 800

:08:00.:08:05.

jobs are going to go, regardless. This debate is raging around

:08:06.:08:10.

politics. For the next two days, they will be a summit to discuss

:08:11.:08:15.

what will happen to these people, how they may be redeployed. On the

:08:16.:08:21.

bigger issue, the politicians are going to continue to grow about what

:08:22.:08:24.

this means for the future and the referendum. At the end of the day,

:08:25.:08:29.

these people have lost their jobs and for a lot of people, the word

:08:30.:08:33.

jobs, referendum in future will go together and they will use that. But

:08:34.:08:40.

when it came to Grangemouth, we saw cooperation between the two

:08:41.:08:45.

governments. On the subject is shipbuilding, it appears to have led

:08:46.:08:50.

to a political row. This is a different issue. Grangemouth was

:08:51.:08:56.

about a single industry, a single client. Shipbuilding, because it is

:08:57.:09:01.

much more in emotive, casts a greater shadow over the political

:09:02.:09:06.

process, because it is redolent with the history of the Clyde. Much of

:09:07.:09:14.

this has disappeared over the last 70 or 80 years. Because the

:09:15.:09:17.

shipbuilding argument is also about the future, it is inevitable that a

:09:18.:09:22.

gets dragged into the referendum debate. It is any one of these

:09:23.:09:32.

isolated examples sees to me and insufficiently as to whether you

:09:33.:09:35.

should cast your vote. Whether Scotland should be independent is

:09:36.:09:39.

neither diminished or increased by whether the Royal Navy built

:09:40.:09:49.

frigates on the Clyde or the Solent. We cared about the sad death of

:09:50.:09:54.

Helen Eadie, the MSP for Cowdenbeath. We had a lot of tribute

:09:55.:10:01.

about her. She was very well liked and admired. I dealt with her on a

:10:02.:10:07.

number of occasions and always found her to be a real character and

:10:08.:10:12.

someone who was very dedicated to her constituents. I think moving

:10:13.:10:18.

tributes have been paid to her and she was just 66, tragically young.

:10:19.:10:25.

This opens the prospect of a by-election. She had a majority of

:10:26.:10:32.

just over 1,000. This will clearly probably be less contentious than

:10:33.:10:37.

the one in Dunfermline. Yes, obviously be circumstances in which

:10:38.:10:39.

the by-election has arisen are different. As you are seeing, with

:10:40.:10:47.

some of the tributes to her, she had a reputation, it was against the

:10:48.:11:00.

Russell Black brand view of politics that everyone is in it for

:11:01.:11:05.

themselves. She proved to be the opposite of that. A lot of politics

:11:06.:11:13.

is drudgery, it is painstaking work. A backbenchers casework is never

:11:14.:11:19.

done. It does not make headlines, it is not sexy, because it does not

:11:20.:11:24.

have a conflict drama for the newspapers. It is the popular in

:11:25.:11:33.

cheap cynicism offered by the likes of Russell Brand. This report from

:11:34.:11:42.

the foundation, about the role of engaging the public with the

:11:43.:11:47.

politicians. They say there is a real divide. This is a long-standing

:11:48.:11:53.

problem. The foundation said this could be addressed. As the ugly

:11:54.:11:59.

political will to do that? It is an interesting report and it comes out

:12:00.:12:03.

at an interesting time, and around up to the referendum. They highlight

:12:04.:12:07.

some important issues, talking about people out with the Central Belt

:12:08.:12:13.

time to do video conferences and been told it was not feasible. He

:12:14.:12:19.

talks about an Edinburgh centric approach. Some of it is very focused

:12:20.:12:26.

around that. You could see my improvements could easily be made.

:12:27.:12:30.

Other points it makes are vague. It talks about appointments to public

:12:31.:12:35.

boards and you heard about how health boards might or might not be

:12:36.:12:41.

appointed locally. I think some of these points are more difficult to

:12:42.:12:45.

address. It talks about civil servants having too much power in

:12:46.:12:50.

who is appointed to these boards and the likes of social networks,

:12:51.:12:54.

focused around an elite group, and some of those points are harder to

:12:55.:12:59.

address, but obviously, Larry talked about the point that you could have

:13:00.:13:07.

people Judy 's and maybe have a more diverse group of people giving

:13:08.:13:11.

opinions to politicians and civil servants. Do you think the public

:13:12.:13:19.

want to see these type of changes? I think given the opportunity and

:13:20.:13:22.

reason to get involved, we see this on a single issue pieces, such as

:13:23.:13:31.

wind farms. The problem with local democracy in Scotland are dated

:13:32.:13:40.

neither of them local or democratic. This is a debate which will

:13:41.:13:43.

continue. Thank you very much for coming in.

:13:44.:13:46.

That is all from us this week. I will be back at the usual time of

:13:47.:13:50.

11.30am next week. Until then, goodbye.

:13:51.:13:55.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS