24/11/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


24/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Gary Robertson present the latest political stories, with Conservative chairman Grant Shapps and a look at Ed Miliband's choices for Desert Island Discs.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning. Labour has been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed

:00:39.:00:49.

Miliband says the Tories are mudslinging. We speak to Grant

:00:50.:00:53.

Shapps. We are still talking about banks in

:00:54.:00:57.

trouble. I haven't the regulators got the message?

:00:58.:01:12.

He used to have a windmill on his roof, but has planned to make the

:01:13.:01:17.

Conservative Party more cuddly been ditched?

:01:18.:01:19.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland. Hot off the press - the blueprint for

:01:20.:01:24.

independence is published on Tuesday and the Scottish government names

:01:25.:01:27.

the day the country becomes independent if we vote yes.

:01:28.:01:33.

Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They'll be tweeting faster than England

:01:34.:01:36.

loses wickets to Australia. Yes, they're really that fast.

:01:37.:01:40.

First, some big news overnight from Geneva, where Iran has agreed to

:01:41.:01:43.

curb some of its nuclear activities in return for the partial easing of

:01:44.:01:48.

sanctions. Iran will pause the enrichment of uranium to weapons

:01:49.:01:51.

grade and America will free up some funds for Iran to spend. May be up

:01:52.:02:01.

to $10 billion. A more comprehensive deal is supposed to be done in six

:02:02.:02:04.

months. Here's what President Obama had to say about this interim

:02:05.:02:09.

months. Here's what President Obama agreement. We have pursued intensive

:02:10.:02:14.

diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our

:02:15.:02:19.

partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,

:02:20.:02:23.

as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a

:02:24.:02:29.

new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we

:02:30.:02:35.

can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it

:02:36.:02:41.

cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White

:02:42.:02:45.

House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a

:02:46.:02:51.

full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and

:02:52.:02:57.

end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good. The

:02:58.:03:00.

Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the

:03:01.:03:06.

Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger

:03:07.:03:14.

currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was

:03:15.:03:18.

there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West

:03:19.:03:21.

would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes

:03:22.:03:27.

implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who

:03:28.:03:33.

is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious

:03:34.:03:38.

reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or,

:03:39.:03:44.

within Iran, how powerful is he? There are military men and

:03:45.:03:47.

intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The

:03:48.:03:54.

Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the

:03:55.:03:59.

Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the

:04:00.:04:04.

Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read

:04:05.:04:09.

this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king.

:04:10.:04:19.

-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of

:04:20.:04:25.

weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the

:04:26.:04:30.

Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The

:04:31.:04:34.

United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons

:04:35.:04:38.

grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted

:04:39.:04:42.

to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key

:04:43.:04:51.

thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his

:04:52.:04:56.

inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President

:04:57.:05:00.

McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress.

:05:01.:05:07.

There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural

:05:08.:05:11.

address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we

:05:12.:05:17.

don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president.

:05:18.:05:22.

Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create

:05:23.:05:27.

nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei

:05:28.:05:32.

authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva.

:05:33.:05:38.

That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over

:05:39.:05:44.

the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president,

:05:45.:05:49.

he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of

:05:50.:05:55.

Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going

:05:56.:06:05.

on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any

:06:06.:06:12.

sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but

:06:13.:06:16.

if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and

:06:17.:06:21.

the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has

:06:22.:06:28.

very low credibility now. There's already been angry noises coming

:06:29.:06:32.

from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of

:06:33.:06:36.

John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great

:06:37.:06:40.

together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an

:06:41.:06:51.

eye on this. It is a fascinating development.

:06:52.:06:53.

More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank's

:06:54.:06:56.

disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links

:06:57.:07:01.

between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big

:07:02.:07:04.

problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been

:07:05.:07:08.

revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them

:07:09.:07:12.

"smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield.

:07:13.:07:22.

Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you

:07:23.:07:31.

accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here

:07:32.:07:35.

is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into

:07:36.:07:41.

difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making

:07:42.:07:45.

sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand

:07:46.:07:48.

what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could

:07:49.:07:51.

have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband

:07:52.:07:57.

on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed

:07:58.:08:04.

Miliband. But by Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday, David

:08:05.:08:07.

Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all

:08:08.:08:14.

along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that

:08:15.:08:21.

he had been a Labour councillor, Reverend Flowers, and had been made

:08:22.:08:26.

to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't

:08:27.:08:30.

seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman

:08:31.:08:37.

of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr

:08:38.:08:43.

Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the

:08:44.:08:48.

Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very

:08:49.:08:58.

inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are

:08:59.:09:00.

telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I

:09:01.:09:05.

have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument

:09:06.:09:09.

about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This

:09:10.:09:14.

morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these

:09:15.:09:19.

questions and that these smears. This is ludicrous. These are

:09:20.:09:22.

important questions about an important bank, how it ended up

:09:23.:09:26.

getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia

:09:27.:09:33.

deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how

:09:34.:09:40.

the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the

:09:41.:09:43.

questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are

:09:44.:09:48.

accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the

:09:49.:09:54.

drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was

:09:55.:10:03.

known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew

:10:04.:10:07.

about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned

:10:08.:10:12.

as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew

:10:13.:10:17.

that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew

:10:18.:10:21.

about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is

:10:22.:10:25.

certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know

:10:26.:10:33.

about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer

:10:34.:10:40.

those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely,

:10:41.:10:45.

asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but

:10:46.:10:48.

about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made

:10:49.:10:53.

loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite

:10:54.:10:59.

bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to

:11:00.:11:06.

Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend

:11:07.:11:10.

Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that

:11:11.:11:16.

off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered

:11:17.:11:20.

them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his

:11:21.:11:26.

past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that

:11:27.:11:29.

involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely

:11:30.:11:35.

you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this,

:11:36.:11:39.

and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband

:11:40.:11:45.

didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing

:11:46.:11:50.

that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask

:11:51.:11:54.

perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,

:11:55.:11:57.

and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is

:11:58.:12:08.

all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with

:12:09.:12:11.

the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare

:12:12.:12:15.

changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider

:12:16.:12:24.

picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over

:12:25.:12:32.

the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept

:12:33.:12:37.

that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions

:12:38.:12:44.

for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was

:12:45.:12:49.

very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later

:12:50.:12:55.

deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was

:12:56.:13:00.

a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had

:13:01.:13:07.

been a proper process back in 2009, would the Britannia deal have gone

:13:08.:13:14.

through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the

:13:15.:13:19.

Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his

:13:20.:13:23.

way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you

:13:24.:13:26.

had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a

:13:27.:13:34.

super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't

:13:35.:13:40.

go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look

:13:41.:13:47.

at the process. There was long indications as far back as January

:13:48.:13:53.

2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over

:13:54.:13:58.

which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds

:13:59.:14:02.

branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored

:14:03.:14:09.

the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the

:14:10.:14:12.

Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available,

:14:13.:14:16.

this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very

:14:17.:14:20.

problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this

:14:21.:14:26.

year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the

:14:27.:14:29.

purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this

:14:30.:14:34.

time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is

:14:35.:14:38.

important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it

:14:39.:14:41.

transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the

:14:42.:14:51.

Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition

:14:52.:14:56.

of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not

:14:57.:14:59.

have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,

:15:00.:15:03.

but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to

:15:04.:15:09.

Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on

:15:10.:15:14.

earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of

:15:15.:15:18.

Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the

:15:19.:15:22.

mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure

:15:23.:15:28.

that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the

:15:29.:15:33.

mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to

:15:34.:15:37.

be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there

:15:38.:15:41.

was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we

:15:42.:15:45.

followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed

:15:46.:15:50.

in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have

:15:51.:15:54.

been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question

:15:55.:15:58.

to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as

:15:59.:16:02.

soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there

:16:03.:16:05.

is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears.

:16:06.:16:10.

There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the

:16:11.:16:13.

debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped

:16:14.:16:19.

work from paying in this country. The big question your government has

:16:20.:16:23.

two answer is, why, by July 2012, when it was clear there was a black

:16:24.:16:27.

hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the

:16:28.:16:32.

Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that?

:16:33.:16:37.

Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come

:16:38.:16:41.

home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we

:16:42.:16:45.

will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get

:16:46.:16:50.

to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds

:16:51.:16:54.

deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when

:16:55.:17:00.

Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge

:17:01.:17:02.

black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take

:17:03.:17:08.

over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not

:17:09.:17:13.

the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal

:17:14.:17:19.

to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which

:17:20.:17:23.

did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper

:17:24.:17:27.

process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the

:17:28.:17:32.

previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be

:17:33.:17:37.

that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure

:17:38.:17:40.

perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so

:17:41.:17:49.

disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to

:17:50.:17:54.

go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent

:17:55.:17:58.

review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,

:17:59.:18:02.

independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The

:18:03.:18:09.

response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer

:18:10.:18:14.

the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are

:18:15.:18:24.

out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was

:18:25.:18:26.

approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was

:18:27.:18:32.

swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution

:18:33.:18:35.

in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct

:18:36.:18:39.

Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a

:18:40.:18:48.

spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial

:18:49.:18:53.

sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire

:18:54.:18:57.

annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,

:18:58.:19:03.

who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the

:19:04.:19:09.

financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to

:19:10.:19:11.

supervise the banks on a day-to-day basis. The Bank of England was

:19:12.:19:16.

supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial

:19:17.:19:19.

system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these

:19:20.:19:24.

things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or

:19:25.:19:30.

main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as

:19:31.:19:33.

a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new

:19:34.:19:37.

system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays

:19:38.:19:47.

here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation

:19:48.:19:50.

Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced

:19:51.:19:54.

with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the

:19:55.:20:00.

financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is

:20:01.:20:05.

all about whether the people in financial services are playing by

:20:06.:20:08.

the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place

:20:09.:20:13.

has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a

:20:14.:20:17.

new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being,

:20:18.:20:21.

more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new

:20:22.:20:26.

organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old

:20:27.:20:33.

offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also

:20:34.:20:38.

inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman

:20:39.:20:42.

the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation

:20:43.:20:45.

into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own

:20:46.:20:50.

conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into

:20:51.:20:54.

banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up

:20:55.:20:59.

to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue,

:21:00.:21:04.

it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to

:21:05.:21:08.

me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal

:21:09.:21:14.

at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City

:21:15.:21:21.

is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the

:21:22.:21:24.

Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now.

:21:25.:21:30.

Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one

:21:31.:21:33.

of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in

:21:34.:21:39.

2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why

:21:40.:21:45.

have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes

:21:46.:21:49.

since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,

:21:50.:21:53.

we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank

:21:54.:21:57.

and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul

:21:58.:22:01.

Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was

:22:02.:22:03.

appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going

:22:04.:22:10.

from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he

:22:11.:22:15.

only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But

:22:16.:22:19.

the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA

:22:20.:22:24.

operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do

:22:25.:22:28.

not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have

:22:29.:22:32.

opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation

:22:33.:22:35.

of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that

:22:36.:22:40.

that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was

:22:41.:22:45.

still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being

:22:46.:22:48.

seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds

:22:49.:22:54.

branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test

:22:55.:22:58.

as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they

:22:59.:23:02.

never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them? It

:23:03.:23:07.

was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the

:23:08.:23:11.

capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they

:23:12.:23:13.

withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the

:23:14.:23:19.

right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on

:23:20.:23:24.

all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find

:23:25.:23:28.

anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to

:23:29.:23:34.

happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I

:23:35.:23:37.

continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op,

:23:38.:23:40.

have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you

:23:41.:23:45.

got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when

:23:46.:23:48.

Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered

:23:49.:23:52.

that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not

:23:53.:23:57.

the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you

:23:58.:24:02.

do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got

:24:03.:24:06.

delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA

:24:07.:24:13.

going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The

:24:14.:24:24.

Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a

:24:25.:24:28.

number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events

:24:29.:24:34.

over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation? I

:24:35.:24:38.

think the police have already announced an investigation. I am

:24:39.:24:42.

talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might

:24:43.:24:46.

be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked

:24:47.:24:55.

at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed

:24:56.:25:02.

off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working

:25:03.:25:08.

there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services

:25:09.:25:11.

Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA.

:25:12.:25:17.

We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not

:25:18.:25:27.

a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a

:25:28.:25:31.

requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require

:25:32.:25:36.

that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional

:25:37.:25:48.

experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up

:25:49.:25:52.

on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a

:25:53.:25:55.

nonexecutive director of the Co-op, so how does that work? Welcome he

:25:56.:26:03.

was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who

:26:04.:26:06.

made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your

:26:07.:26:11.

board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should

:26:12.:26:15.

not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like

:26:16.:26:20.

that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get

:26:21.:26:24.

good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in

:26:25.:26:28.

the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and

:26:29.:26:33.

industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the

:26:34.:26:36.

confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank

:26:37.:26:39.

decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who

:26:40.:26:44.

pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond

:26:45.:26:49.

who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the

:26:50.:26:54.

Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would

:26:55.:26:58.

inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches -

:26:59.:27:01.

how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well,

:27:02.:27:07.

that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a

:27:08.:27:11.

relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't, and

:27:12.:27:16.

we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did

:27:17.:27:19.

not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left

:27:20.:27:23.

and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special

:27:24.:27:30.

support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning

:27:31.:27:35.

about these payday lenders, but I that was not you have made a warning

:27:36.:27:39.

think what most people would like to see is a limit put on the interest

:27:40.:27:42.

they can charge over a period of time - will you do that? We have got

:27:43.:27:47.

a whole set of powers for payday lenders. We will bring in some

:27:48.:27:52.

changes from April next year, and we will bring in further changes as we

:27:53.:27:56.

see necessary. Will you put a limit on the interest they can charge?

:27:57.:28:00.

That is something we can study. You do not sound too keen on it? Well,

:28:01.:28:05.

there are a lot of changes we need to make. One change is limiting

:28:06.:28:10.

rollovers, limiting the use of continuous payment authorities.

:28:11.:28:12.

Simply jumping to one trigger would be a mistake. Finally, an issue

:28:13.:28:18.

which I think is becoming a growing concern, because the Government is

:28:19.:28:22.

thinking of subsidising them, 95% mortgages are back - should we not

:28:23.:28:26.

be worried about that? I think we should if the market has the same

:28:27.:28:32.

experiences that we had back in 2007 - oh wait. We are bringing a

:28:33.:28:37.

comprehensive package in under our mortgage market review, which will

:28:38.:28:42.

change how people lend and will put affordability back at the heart of

:28:43.:28:52.

lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You have not had your first big

:28:53.:28:55.

challenge yet, have you? We have many challenges.

:28:56.:29:01.

It was once called the battle of the mods and the rockers - the fight

:29:02.:29:06.

between David Cameron-style modernisers and old-style

:29:07.:29:08.

traditional Tories for the direction and soul of the Conservative Party.

:29:09.:29:12.

But have the mods given up on changing the brand? When David

:29:13.:29:21.

Cameron took over in 2005, he promoted himself as a new Tory

:29:22.:29:24.

leader. He said that hoodies need more love. He was talking about

:29:25.:29:30.

something called the big society. He told his party conference that it

:29:31.:29:34.

was time to that sunshine win the day. There was new emphasis on the

:29:35.:29:38.

environment, and an eye-catching trip to a Norwegian glacier to see

:29:39.:29:43.

first-hand, supposedly, the effects of global warming. This week, party

:29:44.:29:49.

modernise and Nick bone has said that the party is still seen as an

:29:50.:29:52.

old-fashioned monolith and hasn't done enough to improve its appeal.

:29:53.:30:00.

The Tories have put some reforms into practice, such as gay marriage,

:30:01.:30:06.

but they have put more into welfare reform band compassionate

:30:07.:30:11.

conservatism. David Cameron wants talked about leading the greenest

:30:12.:30:16.

government ever. Downing Street says that the quote in the Son is not

:30:17.:30:25.

recognised, get rid of the green crap. At this point in the programme

:30:26.:30:29.

we were expecting to hear from the Energy and Climate Change Minister,

:30:30.:30:32.

Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has pulled out, with Downing Street

:30:33.:30:37.

saying it's for ""family reasons"". Make of that what you will. However,

:30:38.:30:43.

we won't be deterred. We're still doing the story, and we're joined by

:30:44.:30:47.

our very own mod and rocker - David Skelton of the think-tank Renewal,

:30:48.:30:52.

and Conservative MP Peter Bone. Welcome to you both. I'm glad your

:30:53.:30:57.

family is allowed you to come? David Skelton, getting rid of all the

:30:58.:31:01.

green crap, or words to that effect, that David Cameron has been saying.

:31:02.:31:06.

It is just a sign that Tory modernisation has been quietly

:31:07.:31:10.

buried. I do think that's right. Modernisation is about reaching out

:31:11.:31:16.

to the voters, and the work to do that is now more relevant than ever.

:31:17.:31:21.

We got the biggest swing since 1931, and the thing is we need to do more

:31:22.:31:27.

to reach out to voters in the North. We need to reach out to non-white

:31:28.:31:33.

voters, and show that the concerns of modern Britain and the concerns

:31:34.:31:39.

of ordinary people is something that we share. And what way will racking

:31:40.:31:42.

up electricity bills with green levies get you more votes in the

:31:43.:31:47.

North of England? We have to look at ways to reduce energy bills.

:31:48.:32:33.

The UI happy that the party made gay marriage must a symbol of its

:32:34.:32:43.

modernisation? -- are you happy. David Cameron was recorded as a

:32:44.:32:52.

rebel at one point. It is often said this is a split between old and

:32:53.:32:57.

young, it is actually a split between religious and nonreligious.

:32:58.:33:01.

I think it is a misinterpretation of what happened. Is the modernisation

:33:02.:33:08.

agenda on retreat? Well, what is modernisation? The Tory party is

:33:09.:33:13.

always moving on. Seven years ago, in my part of the world, we got

:33:14.:33:20.

three councillors and the age of 21 elected. Only a few months ago, a

:33:21.:33:26.

25-year-old was chosen to fight Corby for the Conservative Party.

:33:27.:33:32.

The Tory party is moving on. You have found three young people. Hang

:33:33.:33:40.

on a minute. Three in one patch is not bad. What do you say?

:33:41.:33:46.

Modernisation is about broadening our appeal and showing our values

:33:47.:33:54.

are modern and relevant to voters who have not thought about voting

:33:55.:34:02.

for us for decades. Modernisation is about boosting the life chances of

:34:03.:34:07.

the poorest, about better schools in poor areas. Modernisation and Tory

:34:08.:34:20.

party... We have always been for making poor people better. Was

:34:21.:34:28.

Margaret Thatcher moderniser? At the moment, if we were to get all the

:34:29.:34:38.

people who vote for UKIP to vote for us, we would have about 47% of the

:34:39.:34:44.

vote. We have to worry about voters in the North. We need to show that

:34:45.:34:51.

the other party for them. Going on a husky ride is not going to get

:34:52.:34:55.

somebody in Darlington to vote Tory. Adding an EU referendum will

:34:56.:35:00.

get them to vote Tory. We have to reach out, not by some London based

:35:01.:35:07.

in it, you have to broaden the base. -- based in heat. We need something

:35:08.:35:16.

which generally says we are on the side of poor voters, that they want

:35:17.:35:22.

to boost the life chances of the poorest. Do you not think that

:35:23.:35:26.

people who voted UKIP now do not share those aspirations? What they

:35:27.:35:31.

are cross about is that we are not doing enough to cut immigration, we

:35:32.:35:36.

have not got an EU referendum. We have to get the centre-right voting

:35:37.:35:42.

for us again. Do that, and we will have them voting for us. We did not

:35:43.:35:53.

win a majority at the last election because people thought we had not

:35:54.:35:58.

changed enough. People thought we were still a party of the rich. Is

:35:59.:36:04.

that not still the problem? People in the North seat you as a bunch of

:36:05.:36:11.

rich southerners. Which is why we have to do more... You are a bunch

:36:12.:36:16.

of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are building on

:36:17.:36:25.

helping the poorest. There is a perception that the leadership is

:36:26.:36:30.

rich, public school educated. I was educated at a public school. -- at a

:36:31.:36:37.

comprehensive school. We have to get more people from state education at

:36:38.:36:42.

the top. But you are going the other way. I think that is fair. And also

:36:43.:36:55.

the modernisers are Porsche. -- posh. Thank you both. It could have

:36:56.:37:04.

gone on for hours. Good morning. Coming up on the

:37:05.:37:24.

programme. Going to the presses. The Government prepares its long-awaited

:37:25.:37:27.

blueprint for independence. The launch dates please -- the launch

:37:28.:37:35.

takes place here in Glasgow. Will it answer the questions of the people

:37:36.:37:39.

in Scotland are asking? What will happen to the health care system. At

:37:40.:37:46.

the moment, we get prescription is. Will the new tax be better or worse

:37:47.:37:51.

for me? We'll be putting those questions and

:37:52.:37:55.

others to the Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon who's here in the

:37:56.:37:57.

studio. And need your history refreshed? The

:37:58.:38:00.

three-minute cartoon taking us through 300 years.

:38:01.:38:06.

It has been billed as the most detailed blueprint for an

:38:07.:38:09.

independent country that has ever been published. Journalists are

:38:10.:38:13.

eager to get their hands on the white paper. One of the details we

:38:14.:38:20.

have is the date of independence, optimistically pencilled in as the

:38:21.:38:24.

24th of March 2016. From the First Minister down we have been promised

:38:25.:38:29.

it will answer all the questions. Cue hearty laughter from sceptical

:38:30.:38:33.

opponents. Andrew Kerr has been to the printer to look at some notes

:38:34.:38:37.

and queries on independence. Somewhere at a secret location, but

:38:38.:38:41.

not this one, 20,000 copies of the White Paper will be printed and

:38:42.:38:46.

bound, all 670 pages of it. You would find something like this would

:38:47.:38:50.

appear on your doorstep at two o'clock in the afternoon, be printed

:38:51.:38:55.

overnight and delivered first thing in the morning.

:38:56.:38:59.

It will be an elegantly written historical documents setting out a

:39:00.:39:04.

blueprint for a new vision of Scotland, for those in favour of

:39:05.:39:09.

independence. For those opposed to independence, it will raise more

:39:10.:39:19.

questions than it can answer. We are talking about the Des campaign. They

:39:20.:39:25.

have been on the back foot. You win referendums on by attacking. He says

:39:26.:39:32.

it needs to deliver a simple message and answer the questions that all

:39:33.:39:37.

the Scottish ministers said it would. Opponents are ready to

:39:38.:39:47.

pounce. I and Daniel Johnson. I am going to vote to keep Scotland in

:39:48.:39:51.

Britain. My question is, would independence make life more

:39:52.:39:57.

conjugated for businesses in Scotland? It will mean two sets of

:39:58.:40:03.

laws, two sets of taxes and currencies.

:40:04.:40:10.

But for those in favour, it is an opportunity to show what an

:40:11.:40:14.

independent Scotland can do. I am voting yes for independence. I

:40:15.:40:19.

run a number of manufacturing businesses in Scotland, England and

:40:20.:40:26.

across Europe. My question is, given Scotland's strong financial position

:40:27.:40:29.

and our strong natural resources, how can we use that to support

:40:30.:40:35.

business, particularly manufacturing business to reverse the decline we

:40:36.:40:39.

have seen in manufacturing as part of the union?

:40:40.:40:44.

Economic growth, jobs and business is said to be at the heart of the

:40:45.:40:53.

paper. I'm David and I am voting yes. Would

:40:54.:41:01.

we still keep the pound, or would we have a different currency? My name

:41:02.:41:07.

is Kirsty and I am voting no. I want the truth about what will happen if

:41:08.:41:12.

we become independent, the truth on the economy. I will be voting no to

:41:13.:41:18.

the Scottish referendum and my question is, what is the situation

:41:19.:41:24.

with border control? I am voting yes in next year's referendum, I would

:41:25.:41:30.

like to see investment in renewable energy. My name is Michael, I am

:41:31.:41:37.

undecided how I will vote. Would we still have the monarchy in an

:41:38.:41:41.

independent Scotland? Well the answer is satisfying

:41:42.:41:48.

opponents? Unlikely. I'm joined here in the studio now by

:41:49.:41:52.

the Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.

:41:53.:41:56.

Those people who want answers to their questions, they will have to

:41:57.:42:00.

plough through 600s of deep pages to get them?

:42:01.:42:06.

The document will be widely accessible, people can read it cover

:42:07.:42:13.

to cover, or dip in and out for particular issues. This is going to

:42:14.:42:20.

be the most comprehensive, detailed, well researched prospectus for the

:42:21.:42:25.

independence of our country that has ever been published. Is there a

:42:26.:42:30.

danger it will bamboozle people? I do not think so. All of the

:42:31.:42:38.

legitimate questions that have been asked their answered in the White

:42:39.:42:41.

Paper. More than answering questions, it will set the agenda

:42:42.:42:46.

for the remainder of this campaign. It is a positive vision for what an

:42:47.:42:53.

independent Scotland can achieve. My question to the no campaign is where

:42:54.:42:58.

is their equivalent? Project fear comes head to head with Project

:42:59.:43:06.

HOPE. You have set a date for independence day as it were, 18

:43:07.:43:11.

months after the referendum. Is that enough time to negotiate all of the

:43:12.:43:19.

detail? Yes, I believe it is. When the UK government got James

:43:20.:43:25.

Crawford, and legal expert to write an opinion for them, he said it was

:43:26.:43:31.

realistic. We have also looked a precedent in other countries. That

:43:32.:43:36.

is the average time skill from people opting to be independent. --

:43:37.:43:45.

timescale. And many other countries have made this journey. In setting

:43:46.:43:53.

out your prospectors, there will be negotiation. You may well have to

:43:54.:43:59.

compromise. What are your headlines when it comes to compromise?

:44:00.:44:06.

Trident? The currency coach Mark -- the currency? The SNP position on

:44:07.:44:14.

Trident is well known, we want to see it removed from Scotland as

:44:15.:44:18.

quickly and safely as that can happen. That is one of the key

:44:19.:44:25.

issues are the heart of this debate. The choice between spending billions

:44:26.:44:29.

of pounds on nuclear weapons that nobody wants, can never be used

:44:30.:44:34.

because it would devastate humanity, or investing those resources in the

:44:35.:44:40.

things that people of Scotland want. What we have set out other

:44:41.:44:45.

reasonable, rational and responsible cases. But you may not get your own

:44:46.:44:52.

way and all of these things? How confident argue that you can get the

:44:53.:44:57.

currency you want? Is there a fallback position? We set out the

:44:58.:45:02.

position that they believe is in the best interests of Scotland, and the

:45:03.:45:06.

best interests of the United Kingdom, the rest of the United

:45:07.:45:14.

Kingdom. Scotland is the second biggest... Our exports make a

:45:15.:45:28.

substantial contribution to the UK balance of payments, they will not

:45:29.:45:33.

want to lose that. This issue about assets and liability, they have to

:45:34.:45:38.

be taken as two sides of the same coin. The pound is as much

:45:39.:45:43.

Scotland's as the rest of the UK. If the UK government want Scotland to

:45:44.:45:48.

take responsibility for its share of the debt, they have to accept the

:45:49.:45:52.

responsibility of sharing of assets. But you cannot guarantee this? There

:45:53.:46:00.

are two categories of policy choices in the White Paper. The things that

:46:01.:46:10.

will be negotiated, that current Scottish government will be leading

:46:11.:46:14.

those negotiations, and these matters on currency and the European

:46:15.:46:19.

Union will form the starting point of an independent Scotland. But

:46:20.:46:23.

there is no guarantee on the currency. Wouldn't a sensible

:46:24.:46:27.

position be to have a fallback? We will be in a currency union because

:46:28.:46:32.

it is in the best interests of Scotland and the UK. Alistair

:46:33.:46:39.

Carmichael said we would not be able to watch Doctor Who in an

:46:40.:46:43.

independent Scotland. The real campaign entirely approach -- the no

:46:44.:46:49.

campaign's entire approach is to make people frightened. But is the

:46:50.:47:00.

low fallback position? The key point is that a currency union is

:47:01.:47:04.

overwhelmingly in the best interests of the UK, so to accept Alistair

:47:05.:47:09.

Carmichael's point you would have to accept that the UK government would

:47:10.:47:13.

argue a position that was against his own interests. That does not

:47:14.:47:18.

make any sense. Your previous White Paper talked about joining the

:47:19.:47:24.

euro. The fiscal commission has done an extensive piece of work on

:47:25.:47:29.

currency options in in an independent Scotland. The best

:47:30.:47:35.

option, they concluded, was to retain sterling. We do not favour

:47:36.:47:44.

going into the euro and we have made that abundantly clear. The other key

:47:45.:47:49.

point that has to be stressed is that there is no way an independent

:47:50.:47:54.

Scotland could be forced into the euro. The conditions for you got

:47:55.:47:57.

membership is voluntary condition. Scotland cannot be forced into the

:47:58.:48:02.

euro and anybody who argues that is being misleading. We are told that

:48:03.:48:06.

the prospectus on Tuesday will tell us what you are likely to offer from

:48:07.:48:13.

the 2016 election in Scotland. Art civil servants join up -- are civil

:48:14.:48:34.

servants join up... Igbo -- it will transfer and it illustrate the way

:48:35.:48:39.

that the Scottish government will choose to make the Scottish people

:48:40.:48:45.

welfare. That is the exciting thing about this debate. We will get the

:48:46.:48:50.

government is that we've fought for. In 2016, I will be campaigning for

:48:51.:48:56.

an SNP government, but the other parties will be able to put forward

:48:57.:49:01.

their position. Scotland will be guaranteed to get the government it

:49:02.:49:06.

votes for, rather than having a Tory government that they did not vote

:49:07.:49:09.

for. That was the Deputy First Minister

:49:10.:49:13.

Nicola Sturgeon. Joining me now live from London is the Scottish

:49:14.:49:16.

Secretary, Alistair Carmichael. We are getting a prospectus of how

:49:17.:49:22.

Scotland would evolve through the rest of this decade. RB going to get

:49:23.:49:28.

a similar prospectus from you? You have been getting this for months as

:49:29.:49:32.

part of the positive case of Scotland remaining part of the

:49:33.:49:37.

United Kingdom. We have published a series of analysis papers,

:49:38.:49:44.

exceptionally well researched. But you are not telling us what will

:49:45.:49:50.

happen to mark you are not allowed to characterise what has been a

:49:51.:49:54.

substantial piece of work which has outlined a very positive benefits

:49:55.:49:58.

that come to Scotland from being part of the United Kingdom.

:49:59.:50:05.

Recently, the tremendous amount of money that comes to Scotland to go

:50:06.:50:13.

into research in our universities. That is part of the benefit that

:50:14.:50:18.

they get from being part of the United Kingdom. There will be no

:50:19.:50:33.

action on the Barnett formula until the economy has stabilised. But

:50:34.:50:42.

there is a campaign, local government chiefs in England are

:50:43.:50:47.

pushing the UK Treasury to snap the Barnett formula. Do you anticipate a

:50:48.:50:53.

position where Scotland may get less money further down the line? I can

:50:54.:50:59.

only tell you that for the first see above future the Barnett formula

:51:00.:51:08.

remains. -- foreseeable future. The simplest way of getting rid of it is

:51:09.:51:12.

to vote yes and for Scotland to become an independent nation because

:51:13.:51:15.

that is the end of the Barnett formula. Do you think the formula is

:51:16.:51:23.

too generous to Scotland? I think it has served the UK very well for a

:51:24.:51:28.

long time. It has evolved in that, we know, will continue to evolve,

:51:29.:51:32.

and unless there is something that is demonstrably wet are able to

:51:33.:51:37.

serve that purpose it stays. -- better able. The Chancellor has said

:51:38.:51:46.

that posterity will continue for some time. The ISS said that the UK

:51:47.:51:55.

will be running a deficit for many years. -- the IFS. In order to get

:51:56.:52:08.

to the same point we are in in the UK then taxes would have to go up

:52:09.:52:12.

and cuts would have to go beyond what we have already seen. Is it

:52:13.:52:20.

still your position that a currency union post independence is

:52:21.:52:24.

unworkable? Is that a political or economic position? If Scotland walks

:52:25.:52:35.

away from the UK it walks away from the pound. Why would an independent

:52:36.:52:43.

Scotland want to enter into a currency union where they had

:52:44.:52:46.

subcontracted their ability to set interests rates and so on? What is

:52:47.:52:54.

in it for the rest of the UK to put themselves forward as the last

:52:55.:53:01.

resort for banks over which they have no control? Currency unions are

:53:02.:53:06.

very difficult to make work. You see that in the Eurozone, they rely on

:53:07.:53:11.

fiscal and Lettergull integration. Independence is is about political

:53:12.:53:24.

disintegration. Carl Wingrove -- car when Jones came to Edinburgh to say

:53:25.:53:39.

exactly that. -- Carwyn. In the event of a currency union not

:53:40.:53:44.

happening, what will be the plan be? People in Scotland want to know.

:53:45.:53:52.

Would a yes vote not be an endorsement of the decisions the

:53:53.:53:54.

Scottish Government have put into their White Paper? Is it not

:53:55.:53:59.

incumbent on you and other politicians to make that work? If

:54:00.:54:05.

there is a yes vote I am not going to be part of the negotiation

:54:06.:54:09.

because as a Scottish Member of Parliament I will not be determining

:54:10.:54:13.

what the negotiating position will be for the remainder of the UK. You

:54:14.:54:17.

can't possibly expect that to be the case. You would expect ministers in

:54:18.:54:23.

Westminster to our -- to negotiate in good faith. What the Scottish

:54:24.:54:33.

Government have to be honest about is to acknowledge those issues over

:54:34.:54:37.

which they have control, such as the future shape of health care or

:54:38.:54:43.

whatever. And those issues on which they can only express and

:54:44.:54:46.

aspiration. Currency union is one, NATO membership. Once there is a

:54:47.:54:57.

negotiation nothing is guaranteed. A negotiation has to produce something

:54:58.:55:01.

workable for both sides. You can't just say that because the Scottish

:55:02.:55:05.

Government have put it in their White Paper that it is necessarily

:55:06.:55:09.

going to happen. That is not how negotiation works. You mentioned the

:55:10.:55:15.

new year. Can you give a guarantee that by the end of the decade the UK

:55:16.:55:25.

will still be in the U -- the EU? I don't think we can give a

:55:26.:55:29.

guarantee, any more than the Scottish Government can. As long as

:55:30.:55:34.

Scotland is part of the UK then this trend -- the case for keeping the UK

:55:35.:55:39.

as part of the European Union is strengthened. If Scotland walks away

:55:40.:55:44.

from the UK then it walks away from things like European Union

:55:45.:55:48.

membership. She would have to negotiate her way back in. There are

:55:49.:55:54.

other countries in Europe who have interests for there own domestic

:55:55.:56:00.

reasons for making that difficult. Alistair Carmichael, thank you for

:56:01.:56:05.

joining us. Brian Taylor has been listening to

:56:06.:56:09.

Nicola Sturgeon and Alistair Carmichael and joins us live. 670

:56:10.:56:16.

pages, is this to silence the critics of the yes campaign who say

:56:17.:56:22.

they have been vague? Yes, they could have gone for a slim volume

:56:23.:56:25.

but they have gone for one which sets out what they believe is all of

:56:26.:56:31.

the detail. The final section of that, 150 pages, will be a question

:56:32.:56:40.

and answer section, with all of the questions they have had from members

:56:41.:56:44.

of the public. Will those answers satisfy everybody? That is a

:56:45.:56:50.

different question. One of the fundamental elements of the debate

:56:51.:56:54.

is that first of all there can be no guarantees about an independent

:56:55.:56:56.

Scotland but also you heard the point about the European Union,

:56:57.:57:00.

there can be no guarantees generally with regard to politics and life in

:57:01.:57:07.

these troubled times. That is a challenge for those who are

:57:08.:57:11.

advocating change, but on the one hand the other side only have to

:57:12.:57:25.

offer continuation. When we look at the detail contained in this, which

:57:26.:57:29.

areas are likely to come under most scrutiny? The economy is the issue

:57:30.:57:40.

that will determine this. At a time of uncertainty, as we are at the

:57:41.:57:43.

moment, people require reassurance, some form of their concerns being

:57:44.:57:55.

assuaged. That is why I think there will be considerable detail on

:57:56.:57:58.

welfare and pensions, provision for childcare, etc. Do you think the

:57:59.:58:07.

better together campaign will come up with anything new as a result of

:58:08.:58:13.

this? They will be sticking with their themes, not to be pejorative.

:58:14.:58:21.

In some ways the basic questions and answers, basic concerns are fairly

:58:22.:58:26.

well-known in this referendum, it is simply a question of expounding them

:58:27.:58:33.

so people absorb them. An intriguing aspect is the nature of the White

:58:34.:58:42.

Paper, philosophical as well as pragmatic. A Labour Secretary of

:58:43.:58:49.

State set up proposals to be decided by a Labour government. Alex Salmond

:58:50.:58:55.

says the White Paper is a prospectus. They are entitled if

:58:56.:58:58.

there is a mandate from the people to see that delivered in concert

:58:59.:59:03.

with the UK Government. The UK Government say it is a wish list, a

:59:04.:59:09.

starting point for negotiations. Even if there is a yes vote they say

:59:10.:59:15.

that they are not entitled to have that currency zone. It sounds like

:59:16.:59:19.

anything real argument but it is actually the core of the debate

:59:20.:59:21.

about how and whether the white vapour will be put into practice. --

:59:22.:59:31.

the White Paper. How much detail are we really going to get next year?

:59:32.:59:38.

Each of the main opposition parties at Holyrood, they have commission is

:59:39.:59:45.

looking at this in terms of what powers for Holyrood. Do I think

:59:46.:59:55.

there will be a single coherent -- alternative to Westminster? I don't

:59:56.:59:59.

think so. But I think they will find a common point in some way, perhaps

:00:00.:00:04.

the idea of a convention post-referendum that will say,

:00:05.:00:08.

change there will be, without giving every single detail. Perhaps giving

:00:09.:00:18.

more tax powers as a counterpoint to independence. Thank you very much.

:00:19.:00:25.

With what we hear is well over 600 pages of information, we may end up

:00:26.:00:30.

with little time for reflection on how we reached this landmark on the

:00:31.:00:34.

road to referendum. Here is a quick reminder of the story so far.

:00:35.:00:45.

Why are we going round in circles? We are trying to find a way to

:00:46.:00:50.

Scotland's future. Just around the next bend in the road, Scots get a

:00:51.:00:56.

vote on who runs the country. We know who runs the country, the

:00:57.:01:01.

bankers. No, it is a vote on who makes the laws and gets to decide

:01:02.:01:06.

who -- how the government's money is spent. We already decide how to do

:01:07.:01:12.

that. Yes, but many of the big decisions, like going to war, are

:01:13.:01:18.

made in London. What happens if the Scots don't agree with the English

:01:19.:01:24.

or the Welsh? The ones who have the most votes get their way. What is

:01:25.:01:30.

all this about change now? Where to start? How about the ancient Picts

:01:31.:01:38.

keeping the Romans away? Perhaps more recently. 700 years ago we sent

:01:39.:01:48.

them home to think again. How about 1707, when the Scottish Parliament

:01:49.:01:52.

voted the former union with England to popular acclaim. That is not what

:01:53.:02:00.

I remember from history lessons. It all goes into the mix. Some say in

:02:01.:02:05.

the 300 years following the act of union Scotland suffered and many had

:02:06.:02:09.

to leave and Scottish culture was diminished in favour of English.

:02:10.:02:14.

Others point out that the Scots did rather well out of the empire. Some

:02:15.:02:19.

fought for it, others administered it, some made a pile of cash out of

:02:20.:02:24.

trading with it. We are running out of time and you have not mentioned

:02:25.:02:30.

Alex Salmond or the SNP. The Lilly 50 years it grew from being a small

:02:31.:02:35.

band of others and sisters to one of -- to winning a few political

:02:36.:02:42.

skirmishes. They got a 1967 by-election breakthrough. All the

:02:43.:02:47.

while, Scots' sense of there own identity was picking up. In 1999 the

:02:48.:02:52.

Scottish Parliament was created and Donald Dewar became its first first

:02:53.:02:58.

Minister. In 2007, led by Alex Salmond, the SNP claimed victory in

:02:59.:03:02.

the Scottish Parliament for the first time. If we wanted

:03:03.:03:07.

independence, why not voted -- vote on it? Or though they were the

:03:08.:03:11.

largest party they did not have enough seats to win a vote for a

:03:12.:03:19.

referendum. -- or though. Alex Salmond said he did not want a

:03:20.:03:25.

referendum immediately. He has decided on 24 March 2016. Does he

:03:26.:03:30.

need time to make the case for a yes vote? Maybe he thought the economy

:03:31.:03:35.

would be sorted out by then. He wanted to make sure the referendum

:03:36.:03:42.

is legally watertight. So there is agreement on independence? Far from

:03:43.:03:50.

it, Westminster and Holyrood have agreed on how the Scots would run

:03:51.:03:54.

their affairs. Have the Scots agreed on that? We will find out on 24

:03:55.:04:00.

March 2016. That is the point of the vote, remember?

:04:01.:04:05.

You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland, let's cross for the news

:04:06.:04:12.

from Reporting Scotland. Good afternoon. 24 March 2016 will

:04:13.:04:19.

be the day Scotland becomes independent if there is a yes vote.

:04:20.:04:25.

The White Paper will soon be printed before publication on Tuesday.

:04:26.:04:29.

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said if it came -- said

:04:30.:04:40.

they would the currency union but Alistair Carmichael said it would be

:04:41.:04:43.

unworkable. Falkirk Labour party is set to elect

:04:44.:04:48.

a new chair. It is believed Stephen Deans will not stand for re-election

:04:49.:04:53.

when the post is contested. He is a Unite union convener who was accused

:04:54.:04:57.

of vote rigging in Falkirk and was later cleared.

:04:58.:05:04.

independent if there is a yes vote. Now if you're named David and you

:05:05.:05:08.

live in Aberdeen, you could take part in a record-breaking,

:05:09.:05:11.

carol-singing extravaganza. At three o'clock at the city's Mercat Cross,

:05:12.:05:15.

a David-only choir will sing what else but Once in Royal David's City.

:05:16.:05:20.

Choristers must be at least seven years old. The event will coincide

:05:21.:05:24.

with the Christmas lights switch on. Now let's take a look at the

:05:25.:05:27.

weather, here's Gillian. years old. The event will coincide

:05:28.:05:30.

Another mostly dry afternoon, but a fair degree start to it with

:05:31.:05:34.

freezing fog patches slow to shift, especially around the Glasgow area.

:05:35.:05:38.

The cloud will tend to think and break through the day and there will

:05:39.:05:43.

be some sunshine getting through. It will be called where that -- cold.

:05:44.:05:54.

That's it. Our next update is at 6.20. Back To Gary. Thanks Andrew.

:05:55.:05:59.

Now in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week,

:06:00.:06:04.

but first, let's take a look back at the Week in Sixty Seconds.

:06:05.:06:08.

The think tank, Institute for Fiscal Studies, said an independent

:06:09.:06:12.

Scotland would need to cut spending or increase taxes to sustain its

:06:13.:06:15.

finances. Meanwhile the Scottish government published its paper on

:06:16.:06:18.

economic policy choices and independence. It suggested cutting

:06:19.:06:22.

corporation tax to spark a Scottish jobs boom. Welsh First Minister

:06:23.:06:26.

Carwyn Jones said he would veto the creation of a sterling currency zone

:06:27.:06:31.

if Scotland left the UK. If one part decides to leave, that is their

:06:32.:06:38.

decision. The bill legalising same-sex

:06:39.:06:55.

marriage in Scotland passed the first of three hurdles in Parliament

:06:56.:06:59.

in the face of continued opposition from the Church of Scotland and

:07:00.:07:01.

Catholic Church. Prestwick Airport passed into public

:07:02.:07:04.

ownership after the Scottish government bought it for the pound.

:07:05.:07:08.

It is expected to continue to operate as normal with no job

:07:09.:07:11.

losses. It is going to be a busy week in

:07:12.:07:16.

politics. Let's look at that and some of the stories making the

:07:17.:07:29.

headlines today. My guests this week are former Labour MSP Pauline

:07:30.:07:33.

McNeill and Murray Ritchie, who used to be the political editor at the

:07:34.:07:36.

Herald. Several other papers feature the

:07:37.:07:41.

White Paper. 670 pages. The SNP trying to answer all the questions

:07:42.:07:50.

people have? You can download it, you do not have to pay for it? I

:07:51.:07:58.

will try and read it all. But I was hoping for an executive summary?

:07:59.:08:05.

17,000 words. We know that a lot of people have questions and this is an

:08:06.:08:13.

attempt to address them. It is a landmark moment in the referendum

:08:14.:08:19.

debate. Nicola Sturgeon has said this will answer all the questions

:08:20.:08:25.

people have. The problem for the yes campaign is that it will not answer

:08:26.:08:32.

all the questions because there will be a lot of assertions in the White

:08:33.:08:37.

Paper, not the answer is that people are looking for. It may not satisfy

:08:38.:08:47.

people like you who do not supported. It will provide detail

:08:48.:08:52.

which is good and positive for the debate, but whatever your position

:08:53.:08:56.

on the independence referendum, we do know that on key issues like

:08:57.:09:00.

currency, and independent Scotland would not have an agreement, just an

:09:01.:09:06.

assertion that it would be part of the currency. I do think that the --

:09:07.:09:19.

that we are at a critical point where the arguments will intensify.

:09:20.:09:25.

I think the White Paper will be aimed at those who have not made

:09:26.:09:31.

their minds up. There can be no guarantees, as in life. I think some

:09:32.:09:43.

of the arguments have been fairly settled, such as the one about the

:09:44.:09:52.

European Union, but others can be resolved as well. Carwyn Jones does

:09:53.:10:04.

not have a veto. There is a lot of nonsense being talked on this. The

:10:05.:10:11.

currency is probably the issue which is going to cause the yes campaign

:10:12.:10:15.

the most trouble. Having said that, I think that when the White Paper

:10:16.:10:23.

comes out, we. The -- we. To see the fightback on the yes campaign. I

:10:24.:10:33.

think Alex Salmond's approach is I have not yet begun to fight. Talking

:10:34.:10:42.

about Falkirk, there will be our vote today to elect a new chairman.

:10:43.:10:50.

This has been a real difficulty. Falkirk has had an unfortunate

:10:51.:10:57.

history. Since we're back when Dennis Cameron was not selected as a

:10:58.:11:06.

candidate. I think the Labour Party has to get this sorted out. They

:11:07.:11:14.

have an all women short list there. Some really good candidates. It is

:11:15.:11:20.

up to Scottish Labour to win back the trust of people by sorting what

:11:21.:11:26.

has been happening. There are still questions about what actually

:11:27.:11:31.

happened. We do not know what happened. When you have a scandal,

:11:32.:11:38.

that is bad enough, but when you have a cover-up, which appears to be

:11:39.:11:44.

happening, that is even worse, it is a bigger scandal. Labour have

:11:45.:11:50.

suffered the selection procedure difficulties for as long as I can

:11:51.:11:57.

remember. It happens up and down the country. The need to get it sorted.

:11:58.:12:05.

Ed Miliband is taking a real chance if he is trying to hush it up. We

:12:06.:12:12.

have the date for the Cowdenbeath by-election, to replace Helen Eadie.

:12:13.:12:18.

This will be the second by-election in Fife in three months, how

:12:19.:12:24.

optimistic are you of your party's chances? You cannot take anything

:12:25.:12:31.

for granted in a by-election. We will be working hard to win the

:12:32.:12:38.

trust of people. The sad loss of Helen Eadie, very popular,

:12:39.:12:45.

hard-working person. She left a legacy there, but the approach that

:12:46.:12:50.

Labour will take at any by-election is to put forward its plans for the

:12:51.:13:01.

country. You do not always know what the issues are people will be. In

:13:02.:13:10.

the last by-election, schools became a big issue. Helen Eadie was a

:13:11.:13:20.

popular meat -- popular member. She was a decent person. In these

:13:21.:13:31.

circumstances, I think that Labour would be a very strong position.

:13:32.:13:37.

January is not a good month for campaigning. Yes, and by-elections

:13:38.:13:50.

can be difficult where parties have suffered a scandal, but not this

:13:51.:13:56.

one. And that is it for now. Goodbye.

:13:57.:13:58.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS