01/12/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


01/12/2013

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne

:00:36.:00:41.

announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk

:00:42.:00:46.

to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's

:00:47.:00:47.

mini-budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first

:00:48.:00:56.

time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it

:00:57.:01:00.

down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the

:01:01.:01:01.

Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the

:01:02.:01:14.

easier it is for cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says

:01:15.:01:18.

inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The

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speech won him plenty of headlines, and reminded everyone he still has

:01:22.:01:24.

ambitions. So what is the Boris game plan? And on Sunday Politics

:01:25.:01:27.

Scotland: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter fuselage from

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the debris of the Clutha pub in Glasgow. Eight people are known to

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have died in the accident. deliver?

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And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the

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packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the

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bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be

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tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after

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weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the

:02:08.:02:10.

Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with

:02:11.:02:13.

its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained

:02:14.:02:15.

how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.

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What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by

:02:20.:02:23.

government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the

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average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas

:02:29.:02:34.

bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that

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government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families

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incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way

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that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing

:02:47.:02:49.

with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping

:02:50.:02:55.

low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing

:02:56.:03:01.

the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband

:03:02.:03:05.

freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and

:03:06.:03:08.

older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit

:03:09.:03:14.

of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with

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the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not

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very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced

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overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to

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it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are

:03:36.:03:41.

explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does

:03:42.:03:47.

not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what

:03:48.:03:51.

agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would

:03:52.:03:54.

fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,

:03:55.:04:00.

I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests

:04:01.:04:04.

he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies

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have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced

:04:12.:04:15.

this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for

:04:16.:04:19.

ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an

:04:20.:04:24.

incentive to go along with this, don't they? My worry is that I am

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not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people

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might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting

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thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by

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Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your

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bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall

:04:53.:04:55.

through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they

:04:56.:05:00.

themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the

:05:01.:05:07.

Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still

:05:08.:05:12.

very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance

:05:13.:05:16.

announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze

:05:17.:05:20.

prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen

:05:21.:05:24.

them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at

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their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a

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reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 08

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will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this

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time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George

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Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that ?50

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has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the

:05:57.:06:01.

government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political

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bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along

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with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.

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Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the

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Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the

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coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or

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is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with

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the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where

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the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the

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homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing

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in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,

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but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.

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You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly

:07:05.:07:08.

down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are

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shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot

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ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older

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people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and

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raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with

:07:29.:07:34.

that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the

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eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation

:07:40.:07:42.

of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four

:07:43.:07:46.

years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost

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10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,

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how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.

:07:59.:08:04.

The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My

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take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about

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green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort

:08:17.:08:20.

of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income

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families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't

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-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall

:08:35.:08:41.

we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know

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that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be

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doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have

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jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my

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point quite well. David Cameron's panicked response to this over the

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last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to

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make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this

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government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are

:09:24.:09:26.

making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to

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you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.

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But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the

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threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account

:09:43.:09:46.

on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in

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coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not

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reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest

:09:59.:10:02.

income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be

:10:03.:10:07.

potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be

:10:08.:10:13.

that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going

:10:14.:10:17.

to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.

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We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the

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adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in

:10:34.:10:38.

favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest

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answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come

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round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if

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Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you

:10:57.:11:00.

would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?

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If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British

:11:06.:11:10.

people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,

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which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for

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those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might

:11:21.:11:25.

reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.

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Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,

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correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely

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fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want

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to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my

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view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour

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because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while

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they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy

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up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against

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it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference.

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Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on

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the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income

:12:39.:12:44.

tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view

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that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are

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temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that

:12:57.:13:01.

was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return

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for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out

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of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour

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of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds

:13:18.:13:21.

open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is

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whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through

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other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair

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share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room

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subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with

:13:49.:13:52.

the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have

:13:53.:13:58.

about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the

:13:59.:14:03.

next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,

:14:04.:14:11.

but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for

:14:12.:14:16.

your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the

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prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always

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follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal

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Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.

:14:31.:14:35.

Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of

:14:36.:14:40.

the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up

:14:41.:14:45.

with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as

:14:46.:14:50.

you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and

:14:51.:14:54.

agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you

:14:55.:14:58.

disagree with. It is what grown-ups do. A lot of people in your party

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think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a

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post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant

:15:10.:15:16.

manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the

:15:17.:15:29.

sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I

:15:30.:15:35.

see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I

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have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and

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large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the

:15:50.:15:54.

president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside

:15:55.:15:58.

the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for

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joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens

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of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",

:16:09.:16:11.

and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,

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immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released

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earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the

:16:19.:16:21.

first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are

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talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come

:16:26.:16:29.

into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins

:16:30.:16:33.

and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants

:16:34.:16:39.

the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and

:16:40.:16:44.

Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to

:16:45.:16:48.

apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted

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apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the

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2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England

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and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 2004.

:17:04.:17:07.

The government has played down expectations that the skill of

:17:08.:17:13.

migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new

:17:14.:17:16.

restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was

:17:17.:17:21.

two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being

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seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday

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interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You

:17:39.:17:41.

criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from

:17:42.:17:47.

Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted

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arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the

:17:51.:17:55.

battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what

:17:56.:17:58.

preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from

:17:59.:18:01.

some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been

:18:02.:18:07.

better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of

:18:08.:18:12.

what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a

:18:13.:18:16.

series of measures that the Government still had time to bring

:18:17.:18:22.

in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There

:18:23.:18:26.

was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,

:18:27.:18:30.

and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do

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not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for

:18:35.:18:39.

everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking

:18:40.:18:44.

again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I

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understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not

:18:49.:18:54.

preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,

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I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency

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workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did

:19:06.:19:11.

support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I

:19:12.:19:15.

have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we

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recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in

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opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given

:19:26.:19:30.

your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in

:19:31.:19:34.

2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not

:19:35.:19:38.

keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I

:19:39.:19:44.

think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we

:19:45.:19:46.

did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the

:19:47.:19:50.

concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have

:19:51.:19:57.

come from people who have come to Britain over many generations

:19:58.:19:59.

contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise

:20:00.:20:02.

that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible

:20:03.:20:06.

for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures

:20:07.:20:12.

that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people

:20:13.:20:16.

have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.

:20:17.:20:18.

Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled

:20:19.:20:23.

and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on

:20:24.:20:27.

immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total

:20:28.:20:32.

net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in

:20:33.:20:36.

migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --

:20:37.:20:47.

twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We

:20:48.:20:51.

set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and

:20:52.:20:57.

it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?

:20:58.:21:01.

Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to

:21:02.:21:06.

Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have

:21:07.:21:11.

become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that

:21:12.:21:16.

has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls

:21:17.:21:20.

from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have

:21:21.:21:24.

sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm

:21:25.:21:29.

debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the

:21:30.:21:34.

full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What

:21:35.:21:39.

that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this

:21:40.:21:43.

country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.

:21:44.:21:49.

Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people

:21:50.:21:54.

coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come

:21:55.:21:59.

to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of

:22:00.:22:05.

control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was

:22:06.:22:10.

that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern

:22:11.:22:14.

Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened

:22:15.:22:17.

with not having transitional controls in place. The Government

:22:18.:22:23.

didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way

:22:24.:22:27.

it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.

:22:28.:22:32.

We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened

:22:33.:22:36.

in countries all over the world. We travel and trade far more than ever.

:22:37.:22:41.

We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries

:22:42.:22:45.

have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing

:22:46.:22:49.

countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am

:22:50.:22:53.

trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you

:22:54.:22:58.

lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have

:22:59.:23:02.

already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a

:23:03.:23:05.

transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would

:23:06.:23:09.

have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have

:23:10.:23:14.

brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in

:23:15.:23:18.

towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration

:23:19.:23:22.

because there are different kinds of migration. University students

:23:23.:23:25.

coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the

:23:26.:23:29.

other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the

:23:30.:23:33.

jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour

:23:34.:23:39.

market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of

:23:40.:23:43.

migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the

:23:44.:23:46.

lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go

:23:47.:23:52.

to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came

:23:53.:23:58.

from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder

:23:59.:24:01.

of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and

:24:02.:24:07.

the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are

:24:08.:24:11.

nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that

:24:12.:24:14.

immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a

:24:15.:24:20.

mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession

:24:21.:24:25.

groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the

:24:26.:24:29.

changes that happened. Secondly, in answer to the question that you just

:24:30.:24:34.

asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system

:24:35.:24:38.

at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the

:24:39.:24:41.

number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought

:24:42.:24:44.

billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not

:24:45.:24:49.

distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is

:24:50.:24:53.

starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem

:24:54.:24:56.

is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not

:24:57.:25:01.

address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats

:25:02.:25:05.

university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low

:25:06.:25:10.

skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to

:25:11.:25:15.

bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we

:25:16.:25:18.

would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There

:25:19.:25:23.

is something called student visas, which is not included in the

:25:24.:25:27.

figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a

:25:28.:25:32.

figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They

:25:33.:25:42.

come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they

:25:43.:25:45.

come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to

:25:46.:25:48.

come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the

:25:49.:25:50.

system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate

:25:51.:25:53.

and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give

:25:54.:25:56.

us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have

:25:57.:26:01.

seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made

:26:02.:26:05.

a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is

:26:06.:26:29.

right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which

:26:30.:26:32.

we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to

:26:33.:26:34.

listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then

:26:35.:26:37.

she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has

:26:38.:26:40.

chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I

:26:41.:26:42.

think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and

:26:43.:26:45.

reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.

:26:46.:26:48.

OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000

:26:49.:26:53.

front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to

:26:54.:26:58.

fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that

:26:59.:27:02.

you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the

:27:03.:27:07.

Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.

:27:08.:27:11.

Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,

:27:12.:27:15.

and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have

:27:16.:27:24.

also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions

:27:25.:27:29.

dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not

:27:30.:27:34.

having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential

:27:35.:27:37.

increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth

:27:38.:27:41.

areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is

:27:42.:27:48.

about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over

:27:49.:27:51.

many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in

:27:52.:27:55.

the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People

:27:56.:27:59.

like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it

:28:00.:28:03.

leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens

:28:04.:28:08.

commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been

:28:09.:28:11.

the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of

:28:12.:28:17.

people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is

:28:18.:28:19.

about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working

:28:20.:28:23.

with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of

:28:24.:28:27.

their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved

:28:28.:28:31.

with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was

:28:32.:28:34.

to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you

:28:35.:28:41.

would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in

:28:42.:28:46.

all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is

:28:47.:28:49.

competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime

:28:50.:28:53.

and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point

:28:54.:28:57.

about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.

:28:58.:29:02.

It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of

:29:03.:29:08.

communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?

:29:09.:29:14.

Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised

:29:15.:29:19.

concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,

:29:20.:29:24.

Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million

:29:25.:29:30.

and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability

:29:31.:29:35.

at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.

:29:36.:29:40.

So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is

:29:41.:29:44.

which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out

:29:45.:29:55.

a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would

:29:56.:30:00.

be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't

:30:01.:30:05.

volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I

:30:06.:30:09.

think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented

:30:10.:30:14.

things and made it harder to get collaboration between police

:30:15.:30:18.

forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What

:30:19.:30:23.

is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't

:30:24.:30:29.

complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!

:30:30.:30:39.

In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential

:30:40.:30:43.

for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the

:30:44.:30:47.

Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game

:30:48.:30:53.

plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.

:30:54.:31:01.

In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you

:31:02.:31:04.

didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.

:31:05.:31:15.

Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling

:31:16.:31:33.

off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the

:31:34.:31:36.

scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of

:31:37.:31:42.

scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?

:31:43.:31:44.

There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and

:31:45.:31:47.

another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at

:31:48.:31:50.

conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain

:31:51.:32:01.

Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he

:32:02.:32:06.

may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of

:32:07.:32:10.

thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you

:32:11.:32:19.

ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be

:32:20.:32:23.

Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to

:32:24.:32:30.

be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of

:32:31.:32:37.

course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going

:32:38.:32:44.

to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader,

:32:45.:32:46.

another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job

:32:47.:32:51.

Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It

:32:52.:32:57.

is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson

:32:58.:33:03.

to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so

:33:04.:33:06.

that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.

:33:07.:33:10.

And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man

:33:11.:33:13.

who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris

:33:14.:33:16.

replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job.

:33:17.:33:25.

Why might he make such a jibe? Because he has won two more

:33:26.:33:31.

elections and the Prime Minister. The Conservatives like a winner.

:33:32.:33:36.

Boris, against public expectation, even within the party expectation,

:33:37.:33:41.

has won the Mayor of London job twice. I don't buy into the idea

:33:42.:33:47.

that London is an inherently Labour city, but it is not a Conservative

:33:48.:33:52.

city either. He might have built a following with the grassroots but is

:33:53.:33:55.

on shaky ground with Tory MPs who see him as a selfish clown, unfit

:33:56.:34:02.

for high office. And besides, he is not the only one with king-size

:34:03.:34:07.

ambitions. And Boris and George are not close, however much they prayed

:34:08.:34:13.

-- profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for us, the

:34:14.:34:19.

England a yang. In plain black-and-white, if Boris has a

:34:20.:34:22.

plan, you cannot instigate it. If David Cameron is PM in 2016, he may

:34:23.:34:31.

never be able to implement. It would not be plain sailing if he did make

:34:32.:34:37.

a leadership bid. My leadership's chances are as good as my chances as

:34:38.:34:42.

being reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high,

:34:43.:34:46.

actually. So if the job you want with Brownesque desire is

:34:47.:34:49.

potentially never to be yours, what do you do? He is, of course, an

:34:50.:34:57.

American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital. So

:34:58.:35:02.

he is qualified to be President of the United States. And you don't

:35:03.:35:06.

need an IQ over 16 to find that the tinciest bit scary.

:35:07.:35:09.

Giles Dilnot reporting. Let's get some money out of this panel. Helen,

:35:10.:35:19.

is there a Boris plan, and what is it? I think it is to say what the

:35:20.:35:24.

Tory activist base wants to say right now and know that in 18 months

:35:25.:35:28.

he can disown it. I think he's wrong. The way that speeches have

:35:29.:35:34.

played has alienate it an enormous number of people. Boris's great

:35:35.:35:38.

strength was that he won London and had cross-party appeal, and now he

:35:39.:35:44.

will reconfirm the Tories being the nasty party that they are, and

:35:45.:35:46.

they've just been pretending to be modern. Is it not the blunt truth

:35:47.:35:53.

that he needs Mr Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in

:35:54.:36:00.

this decade? Yes, I think it's interesting watching his fortunes

:36:01.:36:05.

waxed and waned. It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how

:36:06.:36:07.

well David Cameron is doing. There is no small element of strategy

:36:08.:36:11.

about what we are doing here. It is about appealing to the Tory party,

:36:12.:36:16.

and Boris's problem is that he is popular with the country but not

:36:17.:36:20.

with the MPs in the party and its hard-core supporters, and that is

:36:21.:36:25.

what this week has been about. So it was an appeal to the grassroots?

:36:26.:36:30.

Yes, it was. He's not the only potential candidate, naturally. If

:36:31.:36:34.

we were in a circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr

:36:35.:36:37.

Cameron, who would be the other front runners? I think they would

:36:38.:36:45.

skip a generation like go down to some 2010. I don't buy the idea that

:36:46.:36:50.

it is Jeremy Hunt versus Michael Gove versus more -- George Osborne.

:36:51.:36:54.

I think by then that generation of people will be tainted by being in

:36:55.:36:59.

government for that long. It's revealing we always analyse Boris

:37:00.:37:03.

Johnson's statements from a nakedly political angle, which constituency

:37:04.:37:06.

of opinion is he trying to buy off. We underestimate how ideological he

:37:07.:37:11.

is. He doesn't believe in many things but he believes in a few

:37:12.:37:15.

quite deeply, and one is the idea of competition in the economic sphere

:37:16.:37:18.

and education, in other words academic selection. He has never

:37:19.:37:22.

been squeamish about expressing that. We do make a mistake sometimes

:37:23.:37:28.

in assuming that he is entirely political. He's mainly political,

:37:29.:37:33.

but partly ideological. Look at the Northern voters who won't vote for

:37:34.:37:38.

the -- Tory party because they just feel they could never do it. They

:37:39.:37:42.

would vote UKIP. I don't think he helps at all. Who would help the

:37:43.:37:49.

Tories there? Theresa May has also been giving it some hard-core nasty.

:37:50.:37:55.

You go out to dinner with him, like I have, and it is like dining with a

:37:56.:37:59.

film star. People queue up to speak to him. He has gone a bit soft on

:38:00.:38:05.

Europe, from the perspective of the party, soft on immigration. So

:38:06.:38:09.

educational selection is one of the areas he can offer to people on his

:38:10.:38:14.

own side. He has gone liberal on immigration, as America London would

:38:15.:38:17.

have to be if you want to be re-elected. -- the Mayor of London

:38:18.:38:21.

would have to be. It's just gone 11:30am. You're watching the Sunday

:38:22.:38:28.

Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming

:38:29.:38:34.

up on the programme: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter

:38:35.:38:37.

fuselage from the debris of the Clutha pub where eight people were

:38:38.:38:41.

killed on Friday night, as the people of Glasgow try to come to

:38:42.:38:44.

terms with what's happened. I just came from the cathedral, and I've

:38:45.:38:47.

left a candle there and said a prayer. There are people that lost

:38:48.:38:53.

their life. More prayers for the dead and injured are being said at a

:38:54.:38:57.

special service at Glasgow Cathedral as we speak We're joined by the

:38:58.:39:00.

First Minister Alex Salmond who has been paying tribute to those who

:39:01.:39:04.

lost their lives in the accident and the emergency services at the scene

:39:05.:39:08.

A black day for Glasgow. The First Minister's words captured the mood

:39:09.:39:12.

of a city in shock. What should have been a fun Friday night out ended in

:39:13.:39:17.

the deaths of eight people as a police helicopter crashed into the

:39:18.:39:20.

roof of a busy pub. Police have named one of the victims as

:39:21.:39:23.

48-year-old Gary Arthur from Paisley. It's being reported locally

:39:24.:39:25.

that two other victims of Friday night's crash are pilot David Traill

:39:26.:39:32.

and police officer Kirsty Nelis. This morning, those who lost their

:39:33.:39:35.

lives and those injured are being remembered at a special service at

:39:36.:39:38.

Glasgow Cathedral. Andrew Kerr reports.

:39:39.:39:42.

A rotor blades that once spun across the city sky on a police helicopter

:39:43.:39:50.

is lifted from the roof of the clues. The heavy lifting gear has

:39:51.:39:53.

been brought in the difficult task of the rest of the wreckage --

:39:54.:40:01.

Clutha. We have lost to colleagues and three members of the police

:40:02.:40:03.

family, and whilst there are eight other families in mourning, the

:40:04.:40:09.

biggest family will find this a difficult day indeed. The people of

:40:10.:40:12.

the city have been overwhelmed by the tragic combination of

:40:13.:40:18.

circumstances. It is such a bad tragedy, what happened there. I came

:40:19.:40:22.

from the cathedral and I have left a candle, and to say a prayer for...

:40:23.:40:27.

For the people that lost their lives. The death toll stands at

:40:28.:40:36.

eight, and three helicopter crew and five in the pub -- from three

:40:37.:40:39.

helicopter crew. Gary Arthur from Paisley was one victim. His daughter

:40:40.:40:44.

Chloe who plays for Celtic and Scotland on the 19th paid tribute on

:40:45.:40:50.

Twitter. I promised to do you proud. At the morning service at Glasgow

:40:51.:40:58.

Cathedral there is support for the living and remembrance for the dead.

:40:59.:41:02.

It is an opportunity for Glasgow to come together and pray for those in

:41:03.:41:07.

suffering, but also to show our solidarity with those who are

:41:08.:41:11.

suffering. So, in some way, they would get the message that they are

:41:12.:41:14.

not alone. That the whole community here is thinking of them and, in a

:41:15.:41:20.

sense, embracing them. As a police chaplain, the minister was in the

:41:21.:41:25.

hospital wards in the early hours of yesterday morning. Relatives have

:41:26.:41:28.

been keeping vigil is, sitting up bedsides. 14 people were kept in for

:41:29.:41:35.

a second night. The tragic event brought the city together on

:41:36.:41:40.

Scotland's national day. This is a black day for Glasgow and Scotland.

:41:41.:41:44.

But it's also St Andrew's day. And it is a day where we can take pride

:41:45.:41:49.

and courage in how we respond to adversity and tragedy. And that

:41:50.:41:56.

response from our emergency services and from ordinary citizens has been

:41:57.:42:01.

exemplary. It was a moment when political rival stood shoulder to

:42:02.:42:07.

shoulder. Thankfully these kinds of tragic incidents happened rarely,

:42:08.:42:10.

but we always imagine somehow that it will be somewhere else. In fact

:42:11.:42:15.

it has happened in my hometown in Glasgow. Like the first Minister, I

:42:16.:42:20.

would like to pay tribute to the people of Glasgow who instinctively

:42:21.:42:27.

went to help those who were in need, Glaswegians at their best.

:42:28.:42:32.

Among those who went to help was Labour MP Jim Murphy. This interview

:42:33.:42:36.

flashed around the world captured the shock of the night. Jim, there

:42:37.:42:43.

is blood on your shirt. Yes, it's not mine.

:42:44.:42:50.

It was the busiest moment of the week at a packed and popular venue.

:42:51.:42:56.

There are questions now as to why the helicopter fell from the sky. It

:42:57.:43:04.

was a common sight above the heads of Glaswegians. People here and

:43:05.:43:07.

investigators want to know what happened. It would not be unusual

:43:08.:43:12.

for this to take a year or even longer. It depends on the

:43:13.:43:15.

availability of evidence and how deep you need to go to find lessons

:43:16.:43:20.

to be learned. If it is the investigation Branch, then they are

:43:21.:43:26.

not trying to give liability, they're trying to find out how to

:43:27.:43:30.

make the aircraft safer in the future, so that can take many

:43:31.:43:33.

months. The police are asking for photos and videos to help

:43:34.:43:37.

investigators. Emotions at the scene are still raw. The moment it is time

:43:38.:43:42.

to remember the people who never came home after a night on duty or a

:43:43.:43:45.

night out at the pub. -- at the moment.

:43:46.:43:47.

We're joined now by our correspondent Laura Bicker who's at

:43:48.:43:51.

the scene of Friday night's accident. Laura, heavy lifting

:43:52.:43:53.

equipment has been brought in overnight. What's the latest? A huge

:43:54.:43:59.

crane was brought in over night, as you say. It was brought in to, we

:44:00.:44:06.

understand, lift the helicopter from the roof of the pub. We have seen

:44:07.:44:11.

many firefighters over the roof of the pub this morning, and they have

:44:12.:44:19.

been fixing wires and cables to the helicopter. We understand that the

:44:20.:44:22.

idea is to lift the helicopter, which is still embedded in the roof

:44:23.:44:30.

of the Clutha Vaults, so they can release the victims who may be

:44:31.:44:36.

trapped inside. There are two things happening at the scene. The first

:44:37.:44:39.

thing is that they need to preserve much of the scene for the

:44:40.:44:43.

investigation and much of the helicopter still needs to be

:44:44.:44:46.

examined by investigators. But also, within the pub, there is

:44:47.:44:50.

still, what we understand, we believe there are victims trapped

:44:51.:44:53.

inside. Within the last few minutes I can tell you that an ambulance,

:44:54.:44:59.

surrounded by police motorbikes has been escorted from the scene and is

:45:00.:45:03.

heading south of the river. That is the grim scene this morning. We

:45:04.:45:11.

heard from Sir Stephen House yesterday that the way the

:45:12.:45:15.

helicopter is lodged in the building is hampering the operation, so

:45:16.:45:17.

clearly they can get in once it is moved out of the way. It is a very,

:45:18.:45:22.

very difficult operation. There are several things to take into account

:45:23.:45:27.

here. Not only has the helicopter become deeply embedded in the roof,

:45:28.:45:31.

much debris has fallen down and it depended on which side of the bar

:45:32.:45:36.

you on on Friday night as to the extent of your injuries, we heard

:45:37.:45:40.

from eyewitnesses. A part of the roof has completely collapsed, and

:45:41.:45:44.

certainly firefighters spent most of the early hours of Saturday morning

:45:45.:45:47.

trying to secure the building and make it safe for people to go

:45:48.:45:52.

inside. Another thing we need to remember here is that two police

:45:53.:45:57.

officers were caught up in the incident, and the police are now

:45:58.:46:01.

involved investigating a site where they have lost two of their own.

:46:02.:46:04.

This is a very difficult situation for everyone. Laura, thank you very

:46:05.:46:07.

much. The Queen has said the victims of

:46:08.:46:13.

the crash were in her thoughts and prayers. Political leaders from all

:46:14.:46:15.

parties have expressed their condolences and paid tribute to the

:46:16.:46:19.

work of the emergency services and ordinary citizens who went to help

:46:20.:46:22.

those in the bar. We're joined now from Fraserburgh by the First

:46:23.:46:25.

Minister, Alex Salmond. Good afternoon. You have been taking part

:46:26.:46:31.

in a meeting of the Scottish government's resilience committee

:46:32.:46:33.

this morning. What more do you know about the situation? The resilience

:46:34.:46:41.

committee is ongoing, and it meets formally twice a day. It's the point

:46:42.:46:45.

at which all the emergency services can coordinate and make sure

:46:46.:46:50.

everybody is acting in unison. The situation is as you know it, there

:46:51.:46:53.

have been eight confirmed fatalities. I should say there is an

:46:54.:47:00.

area still to be searched, the area underneath the helicopter itself. As

:47:01.:47:04.

the Chief Constable indicated, we have to prepare ourselves for the

:47:05.:47:07.

possibility there could be further fatalities to come. It is a confined

:47:08.:47:12.

area, but there is a possibility. In terms of survivors there are still

:47:13.:47:16.

12 people hospitalised, three of them in intensive care. But the good

:47:17.:47:21.

news is though the condition is serious it is also stable. The other

:47:22.:47:25.

thing to say is the general acclamation for the work of the

:47:26.:47:28.

emergency services, all of its branches, as well as the heroics of

:47:29.:47:35.

the citizens of Glasgow. Tell us a little more of the role of

:47:36.:47:40.

government in this situation. You are supporting the emergency

:47:41.:47:43.

services, who are very much in the lead at this stage, but what sort of

:47:44.:47:47.

role do you and other members of the government play in this sort of

:47:48.:47:54.

situation? The resilience committee with the coordinating committee

:47:55.:47:56.

which make sure that the branches are working in unison. -- is the

:47:57.:48:02.

coordinating committee. This is the first incident of this scale since

:48:03.:48:08.

the formation of Police Scotland and Fire and rescue Scotland, and by

:48:09.:48:12.

general acknowledgement the response of the emergency services, the first

:48:13.:48:16.

test of these new organisations, has been extraordinary. We always know

:48:17.:48:22.

our emergency services will respond, but to respond in the way they have

:48:23.:48:27.

two an incident of this scale is truly exemplary. That coordinating

:48:28.:48:30.

function is the role of government. Of course, it is necessary and

:48:31.:48:36.

proper, not just the government, but the civic leaders as well, to inform

:48:37.:48:40.

the public and express the views that all of us feel when we are

:48:41.:48:45.

responding to an extraordinary crisis such as this. Sadly, these

:48:46.:48:51.

are not the first fatalities involving a helicopter in Scotland

:48:52.:48:55.

this year. How quickly can an investigation be carried out and the

:48:56.:48:58.

public be given reassurance about the safety of these aircraft? That

:48:59.:49:06.

is the province of the air accident investigation Branch who are on

:49:07.:49:13.

site. Any further instructions come from the civil aviation authority

:49:14.:49:17.

and these instructions are followed. When you have an extraordinary

:49:18.:49:21.

incidents such as this, and I have represented an oil and fishing

:49:22.:49:25.

constituency were a quarter of a century, so these tragedies are not

:49:26.:49:29.

unknown, but when you get a situation that occurs like this,

:49:30.:49:33.

reasonable questions are asked, but the authorities are in place to

:49:34.:49:38.

issue the precautionary and other instructions are required for the

:49:39.:49:42.

safety of the public. We have over 1000 helicopters like this in

:49:43.:49:46.

service, and there are hundreds across the world in the present

:49:47.:49:49.

moment. In terms of the other craft we have in the emergency services,

:49:50.:49:55.

they have been inspected. The air ambulance is fully function from

:49:56.:49:58.

this afternoon. The police have helicopter cover as required as

:49:59.:50:03.

well, so our emergency services continue with the appropriate cover,

:50:04.:50:07.

but any instructions that come from the civil aviation authority based

:50:08.:50:11.

on advice from the air accident investigation Branch, these would be

:50:12.:50:23.

followed. There have been problems with these helicopters in the past

:50:24.:50:27.

with an incident only recently where helicopters were grounded will stop

:50:28.:50:32.

what would you say to the public who may need the issuance? --

:50:33.:50:41.

reassurance. They were grounded for 24 hours, it was not a design

:50:42.:50:49.

aspect. The resolution of that was for inspections of the cast is not

:50:50.:50:53.

just in Scotland but around the world and the grounding was led by a

:50:54.:51:00.

European agency. You have to understand this as an aircraft which

:51:01.:51:04.

has been in service for many years and over 1000 have been produced

:51:05.:51:08.

with hundreds in service at the moment, so speculation is

:51:09.:51:14.

understandable but had to follow the facts as rendered by the accident

:51:15.:51:17.

investigation Branch. Thank you. Players have been offered

:51:18.:51:25.

for the victims and their families at a special service at Glasgow

:51:26.:51:34.

Cathedral this morning. -- prayers. What words of comfort have been

:51:35.:51:42.

offered? This has been a sombre but absolutely beautiful service at

:51:43.:51:47.

Glasgow Cathedral this morning. Around 500 people from all walks of

:51:48.:51:53.

life across all religions and the political spectrum have come here to

:51:54.:51:57.

pay their respects and paid tribute to those who have lost their lives

:51:58.:52:03.

and think of those still seriously injured and two paid tribute to that

:52:04.:52:06.

tremendous effort from the emergency services. The message from the

:52:07.:52:18.

Minister is that we must face this together. That is what he said in

:52:19.:52:22.

the sermon and that has been the theme. It is about the spirit of the

:52:23.:52:29.

city and pulling together and he has mentioned the triumph of the human

:52:30.:52:34.

spirit. He spoke about the lighting of the candles of hope, in memory of

:52:35.:52:48.

those named locally. He said it is not just to remember them but also a

:52:49.:52:54.

sign that darkness shall not snatch everything from us. It was the

:52:55.:52:59.

children from the Sunday school who met those candles. People from

:53:00.:53:05.

across the political spectrum, Margaret Curran is in the, the

:53:06.:53:12.

Deputy first Minister Nicola Sturgeon gave a leading from the old

:53:13.:53:15.

Testament and the Justice Secretary Kenny McAskill has also given a

:53:16.:53:22.

reading. There are vast range of views and I have spoken to people

:53:23.:53:28.

going in this morning and they are pulling together and making this

:53:29.:53:31.

massive effort to show the people of Glasgow, we can get through this and

:53:32.:53:40.

face it together. Is there a sense that more people than normal largely

:53:41.:53:43.

because people are looking for this comfort? I have spoken to a number

:53:44.:53:50.

of people who came in this morning, many people who live near the Clutha

:53:51.:53:54.

Vaults, they have come here to pay their respects and say they want to

:53:55.:53:59.

remember those who have lost their lives than those entered, and to

:54:00.:54:08.

show their support. There's an outpouring of support for those

:54:09.:54:12.

firefighters and paramedics and have seen all of them represented here

:54:13.:54:17.

today. I spoke to the Deputy chief fire officer who said he is so

:54:18.:54:22.

immensely proud of his services, who have pooled together not just from

:54:23.:54:25.

across Glasgow but the whole country, and he wants to know just

:54:26.:54:32.

how proud he is. Thank you. Joining me now live in

:54:33.:54:45.

the studio is the Scottish Labour leader, Johann Lamont. It is

:54:46.:54:54.

desperately sad. I heard the news while travelling home on Friday and

:54:55.:54:58.

it was beyond belief. Liking a lot of people in Glasgow, we wear on the

:54:59.:55:03.

phone to check people we knew and we were fortunate not to get that

:55:04.:55:12.

horrific realisation. We have seen the common humanity that we have

:55:13.:55:15.

found that people have gone to hell and that must make us feel strong in

:55:16.:55:21.

these times, but also our frailty that in the midst of enjoying

:55:22.:55:27.

ourselves these things can happen. It feels just terribly sad and

:55:28.:55:33.

slow-moving and that package, people recognising the belief in the face

:55:34.:55:38.

is because for some families this will go on and on. We have questions

:55:39.:55:44.

but we hope together we can help those in these difficult times and

:55:45.:55:52.

we recognise the emergency services and of how council workers were

:55:53.:55:56.

contacted and came in to help. It is something we can be proud of in

:55:57.:56:01.

these difficult times. Difficult work for the emergency

:56:02.:56:05.

services but an added poignancy because of know amongst the victims

:56:06.:56:11.

are members of the Roman forces? We realise that while we were out

:56:12.:56:15.

enjoying ourselves the where people protecting us and looking out for

:56:16.:56:25.

our safety. Terribly sad and I again I have them speaking movingly of the

:56:26.:56:29.

police family and how difficult it is. Talking about the investigation

:56:30.:56:36.

and that needs to take time but we understand people will need

:56:37.:56:39.

reassurance because there are so many of these aircraft flying

:56:40.:56:45.

around. Everything is being done properly with the proper

:56:46.:56:48.

investigation is going through, and I know there will be families who

:56:49.:56:52.

will have a lot of questions and it is important they get those answers.

:56:53.:56:58.

Everyone wants to know, how did I lose my loved one, so the system has

:56:59.:57:04.

to recognise that and help people through it. The investigations are

:57:05.:57:07.

complex and very detailed and we need to get to the heart of what

:57:08.:57:12.

happened rather than speculating, because that must also be heart

:57:13.:57:22.

full. -- hurtful. Because it is complex it will take time and in the

:57:23.:57:26.

meantime people will look for reassurance? The people that know

:57:27.:57:33.

best how these machines work can know how to inspect them, we have

:57:34.:57:37.

confidence that those in responsibility will take the

:57:38.:57:41.

responsibility seriously, so people worried about whether they is a

:57:42.:57:48.

bigger problem, we will get that. How important is it that people are

:57:49.:57:52.

unable to get together and shared the common bond? -- are able. It is

:57:53.:58:00.

hugely moving that people come together and people with and without

:58:01.:58:05.

faith understand the importance of holding onto a powerful thing

:58:06.:58:11.

amongst all of this, that they are there's something about us as

:58:12.:58:14.

communities responding to that that will help people through. When

:58:15.:58:20.

churches can give voice to that, they provide an important service to

:58:21.:58:26.

all of us. People are very moved by simply because they afford the

:58:27.:58:32.

opportunity to speak on our behalf. If we can help, we will, and we

:58:33.:58:38.

understand that what you are facing is something none of us want to

:58:39.:58:42.

face. St Andrew's Day and the run-up to Christmas, a busy time for

:58:43.:58:49.

Glasgow and what is your sense as a Glasgow MSP as to how the city is

:58:50.:58:58.

dealing with that? There's a shock and from something extraordinary

:58:59.:59:04.

happening in a normal place, I have people saying they always go there,

:59:05.:59:10.

so there's that kind of thing going on and then the shop in the middle

:59:11.:59:14.

it. A story you could not have imagined yourself seeing. People are

:59:15.:59:20.

coming to terms with it and there's sense of pride. The pride in the

:59:21.:59:28.

people that work for the Council and the emergency services but also the

:59:29.:59:32.

Glaswegian people wanting to do the right thing. That is some comfort

:59:33.:59:38.

but there's no doubt that this period will be about coming to terms

:59:39.:59:45.

with that. I just hope anybody in my own constituency who feels that I

:59:46.:59:49.

could help in any way, I will and that is true across the political

:59:50.:59:54.

spectrum. We have people need help we will make sure they get help and

:59:55.:00:00.

are supported and we know everybody in the responsibility in this

:00:01.:00:02.

process has stepped up to the mark remarkably. For those who do not

:00:03.:00:07.

know that part of Glasgow, something of a Glasgow institution in terms of

:00:08.:00:13.

the live music and the people that Locklear. I used to go to the May

:00:14.:00:20.

Day marches and demonstrations and that was a place you would go when

:00:21.:00:25.

on the way back. People from the courts go there as well, and it was

:00:26.:00:34.

warm, kind and funny. An entertaining Glasgow pub. It is a

:00:35.:00:40.

landmark in Glasgow and the place people now, and now those pictures

:00:41.:00:46.

are just incredible, but in all of this we have to reflect that for

:00:47.:00:50.

some people with is not just a story but something that has changed their

:00:51.:00:56.

lives forever. Thank you. 14 people remain in hospitals across

:00:57.:01:00.

the city with what are described as serious injuries. The Medical

:01:01.:01:02.

Director of Greater Glasgow Health Board, Dr Jennifer Armstrong, said

:01:03.:01:05.

in the main people were suffering from head and chest injuries, long

:01:06.:01:08.

bone-fractures and lacerations. Laura Maxwell is outside Glasgow

:01:09.:01:15.

Royal Infirmary. What is being said there was

:01:16.:01:23.

morning? This was one of the hospitals in Glasgow where the

:01:24.:01:26.

casualties were taken on Friday evening. We now 32 casualties where

:01:27.:01:32.

originally taken to hospital and 18 have been discharged. The official

:01:33.:01:36.

figure is that 14 remain in hospital, some seriously injured,

:01:37.:01:42.

but as we have been hearing that situation is changing. The first

:01:43.:01:47.

Minister Alex Salmond says 12 remain in hospital with three in intensive

:01:48.:01:55.

care. We also heard that an ambulance has just left the scene

:01:56.:02:00.

and made its way south of the lover, and that means the medics and admin

:02:01.:02:08.

staff must of course still remain on stand-by because many people are

:02:09.:02:15.

seeing this as a recovery operation but they are there's still some slim

:02:16.:02:20.

hope people can be taken out and brought to these emergency units.

:02:21.:02:26.

When a major incident is confirmed, hospitals going to a locked down and

:02:27.:02:30.

no other casualties were brought here, soap actress Julie the

:02:31.:02:34.

accident and emergency department was very quiet. -- so actually. The

:02:35.:02:45.

one vehicle with flashing lights was the Glasgow blood donation car.

:02:46.:02:53.

Staff responded very well and that is something being said of services

:02:54.:02:58.

across the city, but we had people volunteering to comment even know

:02:59.:03:03.

what was the night off. I spoke briefly to some of those staff as

:03:04.:03:08.

they left the hospital around two o'clock in the morning. The medical

:03:09.:03:14.

director of NHS greater Glasgow and Clyde has paid tribute to all the

:03:15.:03:19.

staff involved, many of whom came in on the night off. The staff have

:03:20.:03:27.

said they are used to dealing with these sort of incidents but it is

:03:28.:03:33.

not until a period after the incident they get time to pause and

:03:34.:03:37.

deal with what they have seen. The injuries we are talking about our

:03:38.:03:42.

head and chest injuries, compressions and lacerations and

:03:43.:03:48.

fractures to arms and legs. The sort of injuries you would expect to see

:03:49.:03:53.

in a crash situation like this. We have also heard the Glasgow blood

:03:54.:04:00.

relations service open their doors this morning, and even small things

:04:01.:04:06.

like a Glasgow taxi companies saying yesterday if relatives were

:04:07.:04:10.

struggling to get transport to hospitals, to give them a fallen and

:04:11.:04:15.

they would bring them up here for free. -- a phone. As you might

:04:16.:04:20.

imagine this morning's newspapers are full of details of

:04:21.:04:27.

Starting with the Sunday Times, eight dead, 14 seriously hurt. They

:04:28.:04:33.

have descriptions from witnesses talking about how they heard a loud

:04:34.:04:40.

bang followed by falling debris as the bar filled with dust and smoke

:04:41.:04:44.

as people fought to find the exit. A simple headline on the front of the

:04:45.:04:51.

Sunday Herald. The picture shows firefighters working through the

:04:52.:04:58.

night at the Clutha Vaults. Lots of eyewitness testimony, lots of people

:04:59.:05:01.

talking about their desire for news. One woman inside the Sunday Herald

:05:02.:05:05.

talking about her aunt and uncle who go to the pub every Friday, but no

:05:06.:05:09.

one has come home, she tells the paper. I've checked that the houses

:05:10.:05:13.

and the hospitals but there is no sign of them. The front page of

:05:14.:05:19.

Scotland on Sunday. Eight die in pub crash tragedy. They talk about the

:05:20.:05:22.

fact 14 people are still seriously ill after the police helicopter fell

:05:23.:05:28.

onto the Clutha bar and the pictures showing the rescue operation with

:05:29.:05:30.

firefighters and those who had emerged from the pub. The sun on

:05:31.:05:36.

Sunday, a simple headline, one word, into. Pictures of some of those who

:05:37.:05:47.

have been named as victims -- entombed. The Sunday mail, horror at

:05:48.:05:56.

the Clutha, pictures of the daytime operation here. They have pictures

:05:57.:05:59.

of some of those who have been named locally as victims of this tragedy.

:06:00.:06:06.

Horror at the Clutha is the headline. I'm joined now by Gillian

:06:07.:06:11.

Bowditch, who is a columnist and feature writer for the Sunday Times

:06:12.:06:14.

in Scotland, and by George Kerevan, who is a political commentator. Good

:06:15.:06:17.

afternoon to both of you. We have just looked at some of the coverage

:06:18.:06:20.

there and I wonder what you make of what you've seen. Fairly harrowing

:06:21.:06:26.

testimony, George. What I thought is that the tragedy brought out how

:06:27.:06:30.

good the Scottish pressure could be. Immediate news does come from the

:06:31.:06:34.

television, but the Scottish press were very good at digging in and

:06:35.:06:37.

getting the photographs and the street interviews, getting the

:06:38.:06:40.

background and getting round the coverage. Those photographs are very

:06:41.:06:47.

moving. Yes, very dramatic and a sense of the city coming together

:06:48.:06:51.

and a sense of community. You get the human stories behind the

:06:52.:06:55.

tragedy. It is heartbreaking and devastating for the families

:06:56.:06:58.

involved. You get a real sense of emotion. And a sense of common

:06:59.:07:03.

humanity and the sense of people pulling together. At the end of the

:07:04.:07:05.

week where we had the White Paper and the politics have been a bit

:07:06.:07:08.

fractious, it's terrible that this has happened, but it reminds us that

:07:09.:07:14.

what binds us together is more than what separates us. The focus in the

:07:15.:07:20.

newspapers today very much on the human stories. I mention a story

:07:21.:07:23.

from the Sunday Herald, the tragic story of the woman still waiting for

:07:24.:07:27.

a news of her aunt and uncle, and there will be many other people in

:07:28.:07:32.

similar positions. It was fascinating to read of the

:07:33.:07:35.

cross-section of people in Glasgow who were in the pub. It reminds you

:07:36.:07:40.

that Glasgow is a very convivial city. The pubs are not stratified

:07:41.:07:44.

with one class here or there, it brought together a lot of people,

:07:45.:07:48.

which magnified the tragedy on Friday. I'm also struck by the fact

:07:49.:07:54.

that many people are named in the newspapers, and this is a change in

:07:55.:07:57.

terms of how we deal with the tragedy. People have been talking on

:07:58.:08:01.

social media about those who have died. Previously we would have had

:08:02.:08:04.

to wake the police, but now these names are emerging. -- had to wait

:08:05.:08:11.

for the police. Twitter was incredible at 10:30pm, and it was

:08:12.:08:15.

incredible with people talking about what they saw from the rooms around,

:08:16.:08:19.

the sense of shock at seeing the helicopter. A huge variety of

:08:20.:08:22.

eyewitness testimony there. And you have the instance of people who are

:08:23.:08:29.

missing, putting appeals on social media. It is very fast paced.

:08:30.:08:38.

Indeed, we have been reporting this morning about the comments on

:08:39.:08:44.

Twitter, the one officially named victim, his daughter, very moving.

:08:45.:08:52.

It confirms that nothing will ever happen in the world good or bad ever

:08:53.:08:58.

again because people can report it themselves now. What is your sense

:08:59.:09:02.

of how politicians have dealt with all of this? We look for them for

:09:03.:09:06.

leadership that they are human beings as well. They have do deal

:09:07.:09:10.

with perhaps more detail than we are getting at times. I think they've

:09:11.:09:14.

done well across the board, across the parties. Alex Salmond has summed

:09:15.:09:18.

up the mood of the nation. And Nicola Sturgeon. They have both been

:09:19.:09:22.

incredibly busy this weekend I thought Nicola did very well in the

:09:23.:09:26.

televised debate, but she looked really tired. It's been a long week

:09:27.:09:30.

for a lot of politicians. They have done us proud, actually, Joanne

:09:31.:09:38.

Lamont as well, the Queen, David Cameron -- Johann Lamont. Just that

:09:39.:09:41.

sense of loss everybody feels. What is your sense of how the politicians

:09:42.:09:48.

have handled this, George? A situation like this is always

:09:49.:09:53.

dangerous politicians. The emergency is handled by the emergency

:09:54.:09:58.

services, unless it is a mega event, then the politician can only stand

:09:59.:10:02.

by and make the right kind of comment. And then sum up the mood of

:10:03.:10:06.

the nation. And I actually think Alex Salmond did that very well

:10:07.:10:11.

yesterday, putting St Andrews Day in the context of what was going on.

:10:12.:10:17.

Questions being asked now about what happened here, and clearly an

:10:18.:10:21.

investigation will happen. There will be a degree of pressure on

:10:22.:10:24.

politicians to come up with some answers to reassure the public. I

:10:25.:10:30.

think so. Once the aftermath clears away, and it will dominate the news

:10:31.:10:34.

headlines next week, the Independent on Sunday has a good story about

:10:35.:10:37.

looking at the safety concerns around the make of the helicopter.

:10:38.:10:41.

There were two directives from the aviation authority about it. It was

:10:42.:10:46.

grounded in 2012. The focus will be on what happened, why it happened as

:10:47.:10:50.

we've had some helicopter disasters in the North Sea. Growing concerns

:10:51.:10:54.

about these vehicles, and the politicians will have to come up

:10:55.:10:59.

with an answer and ensure that people are reassured. It is a

:11:00.:11:02.

cliche, but these are war curse -- walk forces for the emergency

:11:03.:11:10.

services -- workhorses. They are lifelines in Scotland. It remind you

:11:11.:11:13.

that helicopters are dangerous machines. They are more dangerous

:11:14.:11:17.

and complicated beasts than the aeroplanes flying on holiday.

:11:18.:11:25.

Helicopters operate close to the ground and mechanically are

:11:26.:11:27.

fiendishly complicated devices and lots of things can go wrong with the

:11:28.:11:31.

linkages. Because they operate close to the ground, you are in turbulent

:11:32.:11:35.

air, there is a limited time for a pilot to get out of danger something

:11:36.:11:39.

goes wrong. Even when he comes close to the ground, the way air

:11:40.:11:42.

compacts, the rotors can lose traction. You need really good

:11:43.:11:48.

pilots and you have to keep on top of the mechanics of the machines. I

:11:49.:11:52.

think there will be a lot of discussion about how we can manage

:11:53.:11:56.

helicopters from now on. Although the tragic outcome to this is there,

:11:57.:12:00.

there is praising the newspapers for the pilot, and a realisation it

:12:01.:12:06.

could have been a lot worse -- there is praise in the newspapers. You are

:12:07.:12:10.

right, it could have been worse. The fuel tank could have exploded. It

:12:11.:12:14.

could have been a terrible tragedy. There were 120 people in the pub and

:12:15.:12:18.

most of them walked out of it. A real sense of the disaster scenario,

:12:19.:12:25.

with Glasgow coming together. There are three hospitals nearby.

:12:26.:12:28.

Everything seemed to go smoothly. And the test of the integrated Fire

:12:29.:12:34.

service. We had fire expertise from all over Scotland able to come into

:12:35.:12:38.

the scenario and clearly, the police, they are suffering because

:12:39.:12:41.

it's their colleagues who have died. It does seem to have been an

:12:42.:12:47.

exemplary rescue situation. Glasgow city council say they are opening a

:12:48.:12:51.

book of condolence in one -- at 1pm for people to go along and sign up

:12:52.:12:55.

the chambers. A sense of people coming together seems to be

:12:56.:12:59.

important at this time. It is. We are coming to the end of the year

:13:00.:13:02.

and people will think about where they have been and what has been

:13:03.:13:05.

happening. One did not want this to happen, but in a way it has made us

:13:06.:13:09.

pause in the middle of what has been a long political campaign about the

:13:10.:13:14.

referendum, and we are all human beings. A chance for people to think

:13:15.:13:21.

about the work of the emergency services. Johann Lamont saying that

:13:22.:13:24.

while people were out enjoying Friday night there were people ready

:13:25.:13:28.

and poised to keep the country safe. Yes, and it sounds like the

:13:29.:13:32.

emergency services did really well, but you have the situation where

:13:33.:13:35.

people are offering their services, taxi drivers offering to take people

:13:36.:13:39.

to hospital to visit relatives. A real sense of Glasgow at its best.

:13:40.:13:44.

Glasgow has a reputation as a city which is very convivial, very

:13:45.:13:50.

community minded, and we really saw that with this and I think it will

:13:51.:13:54.

continue this weekend. As George says, when the shops of all, people

:13:55.:13:58.

think about Christmas, it is very poignant and distressing that it

:13:59.:14:02.

should have happened so close to Christmas. The whole notion of a

:14:03.:14:08.

Glasgow spirit, one would hope the same would be true if this happened

:14:09.:14:12.

anywhere else in Scotland. But there is something about Glasgow that is

:14:13.:14:16.

special, I think. Indeed. That's all from the us this week. There's an

:14:17.:14:20.

update on all of the days news on Reporting Scotland here on BBC One

:14:21.:14:23.

Scotland tonight at 6:10pm and continuing coverage on the BBC

:14:24.:14:26.

Scotland news website. I'll be back at the same time next week. Until

:14:27.:14:28.

then, goodbye.

:14:29.:14:31.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.