01/12/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne

announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk

to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's

mini-budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first

time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it

down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the

Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the

easier it is for cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says

inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The

speech won him plenty of headlines, and reminded everyone he still has

ambitions. So what is the Boris game plan? And on Sunday Politics

Scotland: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter fuselage from

the debris of the Clutha pub in Glasgow. Eight people are known to

have died in the accident. deliver?

And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the

packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the

bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be

tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after

weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the

Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with

its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained

how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.

What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by

government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the

average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas

bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that

government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families

incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way

that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing

with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping

low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing

the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband

freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and

older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit

of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with

the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not

very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced

overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to

it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are

explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does

not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what

agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would

fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,

I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests

he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies

have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced

this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for

ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an

incentive to go along with this, don't they? My worry is that I am

not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people

might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting

thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by

Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your

bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall

through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they

themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the

Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still

very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance

announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze

prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen

them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at

their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a

reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 08

will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this

time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George

Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that ?50

has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the

government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political

bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along

with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.

Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the

Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the

coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or

is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with

the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where

the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the

homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing

in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,

but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.

You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly

down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are

shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot

ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older

people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and

raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with

that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the

eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation

of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four

years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost

10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,

how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.

The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My

take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about

green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort

of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income

families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't

-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall

we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know

that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be

doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have

jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my

point quite well. David Cameron's panicked response to this over the

last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to

make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this

government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are

making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to

you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.

But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the

threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account

on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in

coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not

reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest

income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be

potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be

that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going

to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.

We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the

adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in

favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest

answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come

round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if

Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you

would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?

If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British

people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,

which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for

those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might

reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.

Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,

correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely

fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want

to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my

view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour

because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while

they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy

up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against

it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference.

Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on

the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income

tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view

that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are

temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that

was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return

for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out

of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour

of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds

open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is

whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through

other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair

share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room

subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with

the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have

about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the

next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,

but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for

your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the

prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always

follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal

Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.

Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of

the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up

with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as

you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and

agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you

disagree with. It is what grown-ups do. A lot of people in your party

think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a

post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant

manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the

sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I

see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I

have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and

large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the

president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside

the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for

joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens

of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",

and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,

immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released

earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the

first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are

talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come

into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins

and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants

the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and

Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to

apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted

apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the

2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England

and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 2004.

The government has played down expectations that the skill of

migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new

restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was

two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being

seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday

interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You

criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from

Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted

arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the

battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what

preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from

some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been

better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of

what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a

series of measures that the Government still had time to bring

in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There

was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,

and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do

not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for

everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking

again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I

understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not

preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,

I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency

workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did

support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I

have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we

recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in

opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given

your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in

2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not

keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I

think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we

did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the

concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have

come from people who have come to Britain over many generations

contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise

that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible

for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures

that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people

have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.

Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled

and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on

immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total

net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in

migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --

twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We

set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and

it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?

Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to

Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have

become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that

has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls

from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have

sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm

debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the

full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What

that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this

country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.

Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people

coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come

to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of

control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was

that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern

Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened

with not having transitional controls in place. The Government

didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way

it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.

We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened

in countries all over the world. We travel and trade far more than ever.

We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries

have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing

countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am

trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you

lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have

already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a

transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would

have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have

brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in

towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration

because there are different kinds of migration. University students

coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the

other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the

jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour

market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of

migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the

lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go

to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came

from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder

of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and

the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are

nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that

immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a

mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession

groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the

changes that happened. Secondly, in answer to the question that you just

asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system

at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the

number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought

billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not

distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is

starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem

is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not

address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats

university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low

skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to

bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we

would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There

is something called student visas, which is not included in the

figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a

figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They

come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they

come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to

come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the

system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate

and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give

us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have

seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made

a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is

right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which

we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to

listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then

she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has

chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I

think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and

reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.

OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000

front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to

fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that

you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the

Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.

Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,

and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have

also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions

dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not

having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential

increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth

areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is

about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over

many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in

the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People

like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it

leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens

commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been

the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of

people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is

about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working

with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of

their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved

with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was

to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you

would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in

all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is

competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime

and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point

about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.

It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of

communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?

Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised

concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,

Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million

and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability

at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.

So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is

which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out

a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would

be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't

volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I

think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented

things and made it harder to get collaboration between police

forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What

is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't

complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!

In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential

for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the

Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game

plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.

In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you

didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.

Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling

off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the

scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of

scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?

There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and

another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at

conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain

Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he

may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of

thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you

ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be

Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to

be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of

course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going

to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader,

another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job

Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It

is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson

to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so

that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.

And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man

who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris

replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job.

Why might he make such a jibe? Because he has won two more

elections and the Prime Minister. The Conservatives like a winner.

Boris, against public expectation, even within the party expectation,

has won the Mayor of London job twice. I don't buy into the idea

that London is an inherently Labour city, but it is not a Conservative

city either. He might have built a following with the grassroots but is

on shaky ground with Tory MPs who see him as a selfish clown, unfit

for high office. And besides, he is not the only one with king-size

ambitions. And Boris and George are not close, however much they prayed

-- profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for us, the

England a yang. In plain black-and-white, if Boris has a

plan, you cannot instigate it. If David Cameron is PM in 2016, he may

never be able to implement. It would not be plain sailing if he did make

a leadership bid. My leadership's chances are as good as my chances as

being reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high,

actually. So if the job you want with Brownesque desire is

potentially never to be yours, what do you do? He is, of course, an

American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital. So

he is qualified to be President of the United States. And you don't

need an IQ over 16 to find that the tinciest bit scary.

Giles Dilnot reporting. Let's get some money out of this panel. Helen,

is there a Boris plan, and what is it? I think it is to say what the

Tory activist base wants to say right now and know that in 18 months

he can disown it. I think he's wrong. The way that speeches have

played has alienate it an enormous number of people. Boris's great

strength was that he won London and had cross-party appeal, and now he

will reconfirm the Tories being the nasty party that they are, and

they've just been pretending to be modern. Is it not the blunt truth

that he needs Mr Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in

this decade? Yes, I think it's interesting watching his fortunes

waxed and waned. It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how

well David Cameron is doing. There is no small element of strategy

about what we are doing here. It is about appealing to the Tory party,

and Boris's problem is that he is popular with the country but not

with the MPs in the party and its hard-core supporters, and that is

what this week has been about. So it was an appeal to the grassroots?

Yes, it was. He's not the only potential candidate, naturally. If

we were in a circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr

Cameron, who would be the other front runners? I think they would

skip a generation like go down to some 2010. I don't buy the idea that

it is Jeremy Hunt versus Michael Gove versus more -- George Osborne.

I think by then that generation of people will be tainted by being in

government for that long. It's revealing we always analyse Boris

Johnson's statements from a nakedly political angle, which constituency

of opinion is he trying to buy off. We underestimate how ideological he

is. He doesn't believe in many things but he believes in a few

quite deeply, and one is the idea of competition in the economic sphere

and education, in other words academic selection. He has never

been squeamish about expressing that. We do make a mistake sometimes

in assuming that he is entirely political. He's mainly political,

but partly ideological. Look at the Northern voters who won't vote for

the -- Tory party because they just feel they could never do it. They

would vote UKIP. I don't think he helps at all. Who would help the

Tories there? Theresa May has also been giving it some hard-core nasty.

You go out to dinner with him, like I have, and it is like dining with a

film star. People queue up to speak to him. He has gone a bit soft on

Europe, from the perspective of the party, soft on immigration. So

educational selection is one of the areas he can offer to people on his

own side. He has gone liberal on immigration, as America London would

have to be if you want to be re-elected. -- the Mayor of London

would have to be. It's just gone 11:30am. You're watching the Sunday

Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming

up on the programme: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter

fuselage from the debris of the Clutha pub where eight people were

killed on Friday night, as the people of Glasgow try to come to

terms with what's happened. I just came from the cathedral, and I've

left a candle there and said a prayer. There are people that lost

their life. More prayers for the dead and injured are being said at a

special service at Glasgow Cathedral as we speak We're joined by the

First Minister Alex Salmond who has been paying tribute to those who

lost their lives in the accident and the emergency services at the scene

A black day for Glasgow. The First Minister's words captured the mood

of a city in shock. What should have been a fun Friday night out ended in

the deaths of eight people as a police helicopter crashed into the

roof of a busy pub. Police have named one of the victims as

48-year-old Gary Arthur from Paisley. It's being reported locally

that two other victims of Friday night's crash are pilot David Traill

and police officer Kirsty Nelis. This morning, those who lost their

lives and those injured are being remembered at a special service at

Glasgow Cathedral. Andrew Kerr reports.

A rotor blades that once spun across the city sky on a police helicopter

is lifted from the roof of the clues. The heavy lifting gear has

been brought in the difficult task of the rest of the wreckage --

Clutha. We have lost to colleagues and three members of the police

family, and whilst there are eight other families in mourning, the

biggest family will find this a difficult day indeed. The people of

the city have been overwhelmed by the tragic combination of

circumstances. It is such a bad tragedy, what happened there. I came

from the cathedral and I have left a candle, and to say a prayer for...

For the people that lost their lives. The death toll stands at

eight, and three helicopter crew and five in the pub -- from three

helicopter crew. Gary Arthur from Paisley was one victim. His daughter

Chloe who plays for Celtic and Scotland on the 19th paid tribute on

Twitter. I promised to do you proud. At the morning service at Glasgow

Cathedral there is support for the living and remembrance for the dead.

It is an opportunity for Glasgow to come together and pray for those in

suffering, but also to show our solidarity with those who are

suffering. So, in some way, they would get the message that they are

not alone. That the whole community here is thinking of them and, in a

sense, embracing them. As a police chaplain, the minister was in the

hospital wards in the early hours of yesterday morning. Relatives have

been keeping vigil is, sitting up bedsides. 14 people were kept in for

a second night. The tragic event brought the city together on

Scotland's national day. This is a black day for Glasgow and Scotland.

But it's also St Andrew's day. And it is a day where we can take pride

and courage in how we respond to adversity and tragedy. And that

response from our emergency services and from ordinary citizens has been

exemplary. It was a moment when political rival stood shoulder to

shoulder. Thankfully these kinds of tragic incidents happened rarely,

but we always imagine somehow that it will be somewhere else. In fact

it has happened in my hometown in Glasgow. Like the first Minister, I

would like to pay tribute to the people of Glasgow who instinctively

went to help those who were in need, Glaswegians at their best.

Among those who went to help was Labour MP Jim Murphy. This interview

flashed around the world captured the shock of the night. Jim, there

is blood on your shirt. Yes, it's not mine.

It was the busiest moment of the week at a packed and popular venue.

There are questions now as to why the helicopter fell from the sky. It

was a common sight above the heads of Glaswegians. People here and

investigators want to know what happened. It would not be unusual

for this to take a year or even longer. It depends on the

availability of evidence and how deep you need to go to find lessons

to be learned. If it is the investigation Branch, then they are

not trying to give liability, they're trying to find out how to

make the aircraft safer in the future, so that can take many

months. The police are asking for photos and videos to help

investigators. Emotions at the scene are still raw. The moment it is time

to remember the people who never came home after a night on duty or a

night out at the pub. -- at the moment.

We're joined now by our correspondent Laura Bicker who's at

the scene of Friday night's accident. Laura, heavy lifting

equipment has been brought in overnight. What's the latest? A huge

crane was brought in over night, as you say. It was brought in to, we

understand, lift the helicopter from the roof of the pub. We have seen

many firefighters over the roof of the pub this morning, and they have

been fixing wires and cables to the helicopter. We understand that the

idea is to lift the helicopter, which is still embedded in the roof

of the Clutha Vaults, so they can release the victims who may be

trapped inside. There are two things happening at the scene. The first

thing is that they need to preserve much of the scene for the

investigation and much of the helicopter still needs to be

examined by investigators. But also, within the pub, there is

still, what we understand, we believe there are victims trapped

inside. Within the last few minutes I can tell you that an ambulance,

surrounded by police motorbikes has been escorted from the scene and is

heading south of the river. That is the grim scene this morning. We

heard from Sir Stephen House yesterday that the way the

helicopter is lodged in the building is hampering the operation, so

clearly they can get in once it is moved out of the way. It is a very,

very difficult operation. There are several things to take into account

here. Not only has the helicopter become deeply embedded in the roof,

much debris has fallen down and it depended on which side of the bar

you on on Friday night as to the extent of your injuries, we heard

from eyewitnesses. A part of the roof has completely collapsed, and

certainly firefighters spent most of the early hours of Saturday morning

trying to secure the building and make it safe for people to go

inside. Another thing we need to remember here is that two police

officers were caught up in the incident, and the police are now

involved investigating a site where they have lost two of their own.

This is a very difficult situation for everyone. Laura, thank you very

much. The Queen has said the victims of

the crash were in her thoughts and prayers. Political leaders from all

parties have expressed their condolences and paid tribute to the

work of the emergency services and ordinary citizens who went to help

those in the bar. We're joined now from Fraserburgh by the First

Minister, Alex Salmond. Good afternoon. You have been taking part

in a meeting of the Scottish government's resilience committee

this morning. What more do you know about the situation? The resilience

committee is ongoing, and it meets formally twice a day. It's the point

at which all the emergency services can coordinate and make sure

everybody is acting in unison. The situation is as you know it, there

have been eight confirmed fatalities. I should say there is an

area still to be searched, the area underneath the helicopter itself. As

the Chief Constable indicated, we have to prepare ourselves for the

possibility there could be further fatalities to come. It is a confined

area, but there is a possibility. In terms of survivors there are still

12 people hospitalised, three of them in intensive care. But the good

news is though the condition is serious it is also stable. The other

thing to say is the general acclamation for the work of the

emergency services, all of its branches, as well as the heroics of

the citizens of Glasgow. Tell us a little more of the role of

government in this situation. You are supporting the emergency

services, who are very much in the lead at this stage, but what sort of

role do you and other members of the government play in this sort of

situation? The resilience committee with the coordinating committee

which make sure that the branches are working in unison. -- is the

coordinating committee. This is the first incident of this scale since

the formation of Police Scotland and Fire and rescue Scotland, and by

general acknowledgement the response of the emergency services, the first

test of these new organisations, has been extraordinary. We always know

our emergency services will respond, but to respond in the way they have

two an incident of this scale is truly exemplary. That coordinating

function is the role of government. Of course, it is necessary and

proper, not just the government, but the civic leaders as well, to inform

the public and express the views that all of us feel when we are

responding to an extraordinary crisis such as this. Sadly, these

are not the first fatalities involving a helicopter in Scotland

this year. How quickly can an investigation be carried out and the

public be given reassurance about the safety of these aircraft? That

is the province of the air accident investigation Branch who are on

site. Any further instructions come from the civil aviation authority

and these instructions are followed. When you have an extraordinary

incidents such as this, and I have represented an oil and fishing

constituency were a quarter of a century, so these tragedies are not

unknown, but when you get a situation that occurs like this,

reasonable questions are asked, but the authorities are in place to

issue the precautionary and other instructions are required for the

safety of the public. We have over 1000 helicopters like this in

service, and there are hundreds across the world in the present

moment. In terms of the other craft we have in the emergency services,

they have been inspected. The air ambulance is fully function from

this afternoon. The police have helicopter cover as required as

well, so our emergency services continue with the appropriate cover,

but any instructions that come from the civil aviation authority based

on advice from the air accident investigation Branch, these would be

followed. There have been problems with these helicopters in the past

with an incident only recently where helicopters were grounded will stop

what would you say to the public who may need the issuance? --

reassurance. They were grounded for 24 hours, it was not a design

aspect. The resolution of that was for inspections of the cast is not

just in Scotland but around the world and the grounding was led by a

European agency. You have to understand this as an aircraft which

has been in service for many years and over 1000 have been produced

with hundreds in service at the moment, so speculation is

understandable but had to follow the facts as rendered by the accident

investigation Branch. Thank you. Players have been offered

for the victims and their families at a special service at Glasgow

Cathedral this morning. -- prayers. What words of comfort have been

offered? This has been a sombre but absolutely beautiful service at

Glasgow Cathedral this morning. Around 500 people from all walks of

life across all religions and the political spectrum have come here to

pay their respects and paid tribute to those who have lost their lives

and think of those still seriously injured and two paid tribute to that

tremendous effort from the emergency services. The message from the

Minister is that we must face this together. That is what he said in

the sermon and that has been the theme. It is about the spirit of the

city and pulling together and he has mentioned the triumph of the human

spirit. He spoke about the lighting of the candles of hope, in memory of

those named locally. He said it is not just to remember them but also a

sign that darkness shall not snatch everything from us. It was the

children from the Sunday school who met those candles. People from

across the political spectrum, Margaret Curran is in the, the

Deputy first Minister Nicola Sturgeon gave a leading from the old

Testament and the Justice Secretary Kenny McAskill has also given a

reading. There are vast range of views and I have spoken to people

going in this morning and they are pulling together and making this

massive effort to show the people of Glasgow, we can get through this and

face it together. Is there a sense that more people than normal largely

because people are looking for this comfort? I have spoken to a number

of people who came in this morning, many people who live near the Clutha

Vaults, they have come here to pay their respects and say they want to

remember those who have lost their lives than those entered, and to

show their support. There's an outpouring of support for those

firefighters and paramedics and have seen all of them represented here

today. I spoke to the Deputy chief fire officer who said he is so

immensely proud of his services, who have pooled together not just from

across Glasgow but the whole country, and he wants to know just

how proud he is. Thank you. Joining me now live in

the studio is the Scottish Labour leader, Johann Lamont. It is

desperately sad. I heard the news while travelling home on Friday and

it was beyond belief. Liking a lot of people in Glasgow, we wear on the

phone to check people we knew and we were fortunate not to get that

horrific realisation. We have seen the common humanity that we have

found that people have gone to hell and that must make us feel strong in

these times, but also our frailty that in the midst of enjoying

ourselves these things can happen. It feels just terribly sad and

slow-moving and that package, people recognising the belief in the face

is because for some families this will go on and on. We have questions

but we hope together we can help those in these difficult times and

we recognise the emergency services and of how council workers were

contacted and came in to help. It is something we can be proud of in

these difficult times. Difficult work for the emergency

services but an added poignancy because of know amongst the victims

are members of the Roman forces? We realise that while we were out

enjoying ourselves the where people protecting us and looking out for

our safety. Terribly sad and I again I have them speaking movingly of the

police family and how difficult it is. Talking about the investigation

and that needs to take time but we understand people will need

reassurance because there are so many of these aircraft flying

around. Everything is being done properly with the proper

investigation is going through, and I know there will be families who

will have a lot of questions and it is important they get those answers.

Everyone wants to know, how did I lose my loved one, so the system has

to recognise that and help people through it. The investigations are

complex and very detailed and we need to get to the heart of what

happened rather than speculating, because that must also be heart

full. -- hurtful. Because it is complex it will take time and in the

meantime people will look for reassurance? The people that know

best how these machines work can know how to inspect them, we have

confidence that those in responsibility will take the

responsibility seriously, so people worried about whether they is a

bigger problem, we will get that. How important is it that people are

unable to get together and shared the common bond? -- are able. It is

hugely moving that people come together and people with and without

faith understand the importance of holding onto a powerful thing

amongst all of this, that they are there's something about us as

communities responding to that that will help people through. When

churches can give voice to that, they provide an important service to

all of us. People are very moved by simply because they afford the

opportunity to speak on our behalf. If we can help, we will, and we

understand that what you are facing is something none of us want to

face. St Andrew's Day and the run-up to Christmas, a busy time for

Glasgow and what is your sense as a Glasgow MSP as to how the city is

dealing with that? There's a shock and from something extraordinary

happening in a normal place, I have people saying they always go there,

so there's that kind of thing going on and then the shop in the middle

it. A story you could not have imagined yourself seeing. People are

coming to terms with it and there's sense of pride. The pride in the

people that work for the Council and the emergency services but also the

Glaswegian people wanting to do the right thing. That is some comfort

but there's no doubt that this period will be about coming to terms

with that. I just hope anybody in my own constituency who feels that I

could help in any way, I will and that is true across the political

spectrum. We have people need help we will make sure they get help and

are supported and we know everybody in the responsibility in this

process has stepped up to the mark remarkably. For those who do not

know that part of Glasgow, something of a Glasgow institution in terms of

the live music and the people that Locklear. I used to go to the May

Day marches and demonstrations and that was a place you would go when

on the way back. People from the courts go there as well, and it was

warm, kind and funny. An entertaining Glasgow pub. It is a

landmark in Glasgow and the place people now, and now those pictures

are just incredible, but in all of this we have to reflect that for

some people with is not just a story but something that has changed their

lives forever. Thank you. 14 people remain in hospitals across

the city with what are described as serious injuries. The Medical

Director of Greater Glasgow Health Board, Dr Jennifer Armstrong, said

in the main people were suffering from head and chest injuries, long

bone-fractures and lacerations. Laura Maxwell is outside Glasgow

Royal Infirmary. What is being said there was

morning? This was one of the hospitals in Glasgow where the

casualties were taken on Friday evening. We now 32 casualties where

originally taken to hospital and 18 have been discharged. The official

figure is that 14 remain in hospital, some seriously injured,

but as we have been hearing that situation is changing. The first

Minister Alex Salmond says 12 remain in hospital with three in intensive

care. We also heard that an ambulance has just left the scene

and made its way south of the lover, and that means the medics and admin

staff must of course still remain on stand-by because many people are

seeing this as a recovery operation but they are there's still some slim

hope people can be taken out and brought to these emergency units.

When a major incident is confirmed, hospitals going to a locked down and

no other casualties were brought here, soap actress Julie the

accident and emergency department was very quiet. -- so actually. The

one vehicle with flashing lights was the Glasgow blood donation car.

Staff responded very well and that is something being said of services

across the city, but we had people volunteering to comment even know

what was the night off. I spoke briefly to some of those staff as

they left the hospital around two o'clock in the morning. The medical

director of NHS greater Glasgow and Clyde has paid tribute to all the

staff involved, many of whom came in on the night off. The staff have

said they are used to dealing with these sort of incidents but it is

not until a period after the incident they get time to pause and

deal with what they have seen. The injuries we are talking about our

head and chest injuries, compressions and lacerations and

fractures to arms and legs. The sort of injuries you would expect to see

in a crash situation like this. We have also heard the Glasgow blood

relations service open their doors this morning, and even small things

like a Glasgow taxi companies saying yesterday if relatives were

struggling to get transport to hospitals, to give them a fallen and

they would bring them up here for free. -- a phone. As you might

imagine this morning's newspapers are full of details of

Starting with the Sunday Times, eight dead, 14 seriously hurt. They

have descriptions from witnesses talking about how they heard a loud

bang followed by falling debris as the bar filled with dust and smoke

as people fought to find the exit. A simple headline on the front of the

Sunday Herald. The picture shows firefighters working through the

night at the Clutha Vaults. Lots of eyewitness testimony, lots of people

talking about their desire for news. One woman inside the Sunday Herald

talking about her aunt and uncle who go to the pub every Friday, but no

one has come home, she tells the paper. I've checked that the houses

and the hospitals but there is no sign of them. The front page of

Scotland on Sunday. Eight die in pub crash tragedy. They talk about the

fact 14 people are still seriously ill after the police helicopter fell

onto the Clutha bar and the pictures showing the rescue operation with

firefighters and those who had emerged from the pub. The sun on

Sunday, a simple headline, one word, into. Pictures of some of those who

have been named as victims -- entombed. The Sunday mail, horror at

the Clutha, pictures of the daytime operation here. They have pictures

of some of those who have been named locally as victims of this tragedy.

Horror at the Clutha is the headline. I'm joined now by Gillian

Bowditch, who is a columnist and feature writer for the Sunday Times

in Scotland, and by George Kerevan, who is a political commentator. Good

afternoon to both of you. We have just looked at some of the coverage

there and I wonder what you make of what you've seen. Fairly harrowing

testimony, George. What I thought is that the tragedy brought out how

good the Scottish pressure could be. Immediate news does come from the

television, but the Scottish press were very good at digging in and

getting the photographs and the street interviews, getting the

background and getting round the coverage. Those photographs are very

moving. Yes, very dramatic and a sense of the city coming together

and a sense of community. You get the human stories behind the

tragedy. It is heartbreaking and devastating for the families

involved. You get a real sense of emotion. And a sense of common

humanity and the sense of people pulling together. At the end of the

week where we had the White Paper and the politics have been a bit

fractious, it's terrible that this has happened, but it reminds us that

what binds us together is more than what separates us. The focus in the

newspapers today very much on the human stories. I mention a story

from the Sunday Herald, the tragic story of the woman still waiting for

a news of her aunt and uncle, and there will be many other people in

similar positions. It was fascinating to read of the

cross-section of people in Glasgow who were in the pub. It reminds you

that Glasgow is a very convivial city. The pubs are not stratified

with one class here or there, it brought together a lot of people,

which magnified the tragedy on Friday. I'm also struck by the fact

that many people are named in the newspapers, and this is a change in

terms of how we deal with the tragedy. People have been talking on

social media about those who have died. Previously we would have had

to wake the police, but now these names are emerging. -- had to wait

for the police. Twitter was incredible at 10:30pm, and it was

incredible with people talking about what they saw from the rooms around,

the sense of shock at seeing the helicopter. A huge variety of

eyewitness testimony there. And you have the instance of people who are

missing, putting appeals on social media. It is very fast paced.

Indeed, we have been reporting this morning about the comments on

Twitter, the one officially named victim, his daughter, very moving.

It confirms that nothing will ever happen in the world good or bad ever

again because people can report it themselves now. What is your sense

of how politicians have dealt with all of this? We look for them for

leadership that they are human beings as well. They have do deal

with perhaps more detail than we are getting at times. I think they've

done well across the board, across the parties. Alex Salmond has summed

up the mood of the nation. And Nicola Sturgeon. They have both been

incredibly busy this weekend I thought Nicola did very well in the

televised debate, but she looked really tired. It's been a long week

for a lot of politicians. They have done us proud, actually, Joanne

Lamont as well, the Queen, David Cameron -- Johann Lamont. Just that

sense of loss everybody feels. What is your sense of how the politicians

have handled this, George? A situation like this is always

dangerous politicians. The emergency is handled by the emergency

services, unless it is a mega event, then the politician can only stand

by and make the right kind of comment. And then sum up the mood of

the nation. And I actually think Alex Salmond did that very well

yesterday, putting St Andrews Day in the context of what was going on.

Questions being asked now about what happened here, and clearly an

investigation will happen. There will be a degree of pressure on

politicians to come up with some answers to reassure the public. I

think so. Once the aftermath clears away, and it will dominate the news

headlines next week, the Independent on Sunday has a good story about

looking at the safety concerns around the make of the helicopter.

There were two directives from the aviation authority about it. It was

grounded in 2012. The focus will be on what happened, why it happened as

we've had some helicopter disasters in the North Sea. Growing concerns

about these vehicles, and the politicians will have to come up

with an answer and ensure that people are reassured. It is a

cliche, but these are war curse -- walk forces for the emergency

services -- workhorses. They are lifelines in Scotland. It remind you

that helicopters are dangerous machines. They are more dangerous

and complicated beasts than the aeroplanes flying on holiday.

Helicopters operate close to the ground and mechanically are

fiendishly complicated devices and lots of things can go wrong with the

linkages. Because they operate close to the ground, you are in turbulent

air, there is a limited time for a pilot to get out of danger something

goes wrong. Even when he comes close to the ground, the way air

compacts, the rotors can lose traction. You need really good

pilots and you have to keep on top of the mechanics of the machines. I

think there will be a lot of discussion about how we can manage

helicopters from now on. Although the tragic outcome to this is there,

there is praising the newspapers for the pilot, and a realisation it

could have been a lot worse -- there is praise in the newspapers. You are

right, it could have been worse. The fuel tank could have exploded. It

could have been a terrible tragedy. There were 120 people in the pub and

most of them walked out of it. A real sense of the disaster scenario,

with Glasgow coming together. There are three hospitals nearby.

Everything seemed to go smoothly. And the test of the integrated Fire

service. We had fire expertise from all over Scotland able to come into

the scenario and clearly, the police, they are suffering because

it's their colleagues who have died. It does seem to have been an

exemplary rescue situation. Glasgow city council say they are opening a

book of condolence in one -- at 1pm for people to go along and sign up

the chambers. A sense of people coming together seems to be

important at this time. It is. We are coming to the end of the year

and people will think about where they have been and what has been

happening. One did not want this to happen, but in a way it has made us

pause in the middle of what has been a long political campaign about the

referendum, and we are all human beings. A chance for people to think

about the work of the emergency services. Johann Lamont saying that

while people were out enjoying Friday night there were people ready

and poised to keep the country safe. Yes, and it sounds like the

emergency services did really well, but you have the situation where

people are offering their services, taxi drivers offering to take people

to hospital to visit relatives. A real sense of Glasgow at its best.

Glasgow has a reputation as a city which is very convivial, very

community minded, and we really saw that with this and I think it will

continue this weekend. As George says, when the shops of all, people

think about Christmas, it is very poignant and distressing that it

should have happened so close to Christmas. The whole notion of a

Glasgow spirit, one would hope the same would be true if this happened

anywhere else in Scotland. But there is something about Glasgow that is

special, I think. Indeed. That's all from the us this week. There's an

update on all of the days news on Reporting Scotland here on BBC One

Scotland tonight at 6:10pm and continuing coverage on the BBC

Scotland news website. I'll be back at the same time next week. Until

then, goodbye.