01/12/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne


announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk


to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's


mini-budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first


time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it


down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the


Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the


easier it is for cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says


inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The


speech won him plenty of headlines, and reminded everyone he still has


ambitions. So what is the Boris game plan? And on Sunday Politics


Scotland: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter fuselage from


the debris of the Clutha pub in Glasgow. Eight people are known to


have died in the accident. deliver?


And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the


packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the


bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be


tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after


weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the


Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with


its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained


how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.


What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by


government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the


average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas


bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that


government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families


incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way


that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing


with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping


low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing


the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband


freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and


older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit


of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with


the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not


very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced


overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to


it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are


explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does


not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what


agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would


fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,


I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests


he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies


have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced


this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for


ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an


incentive to go along with this, don't they? My worry is that I am


not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people


might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting


thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by


Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your


bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall


through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they


themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the


Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still


very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance


announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze


prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen


them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at


their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a


reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 08


will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this


time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George


Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that ?50


has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the


government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political


bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along


with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.


Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the


Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the


coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or


is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with


the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where


the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the


homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing


in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,


but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.


You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly


down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are


shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot


ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older


people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and


raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with


that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the


eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation


of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four


years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost


10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,


how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.


The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My


take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about


green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort


of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income


families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't


-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall


we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know


that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be


doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have


jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my


point quite well. David Cameron's panicked response to this over the


last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to


make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this


government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are


making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to


you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.


But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the


threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account


on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in


coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not


reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest


income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be


potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be


that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going


to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.


We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the


adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in


favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest


answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come


round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if


Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you


would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?


If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British


people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,


which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for


those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might


reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.


Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,


correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely


fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want


to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my


view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour


because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while


they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy


up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against


it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference.


Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on


the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income


tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view


that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are


temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that


was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return


for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out


of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour


of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds


open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is


whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through


other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair


share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room


subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with


the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have


about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the


next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,


but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for


your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the


prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always


follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal


Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.


Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of


the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up


with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as


you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and


agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you


disagree with. It is what grown-ups do. A lot of people in your party


think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a


post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant


manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the


sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I


see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I


have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and


large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the


president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside


the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for


joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens


of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",


and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,


immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released


earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the


first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are


talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come


into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins


and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants


the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and


Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to


apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted


apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the


2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England


and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 2004.


The government has played down expectations that the skill of


migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new


restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was


two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being


seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday


interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You


criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from


Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted


arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the


battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what


preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from


some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been


better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of


what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a


series of measures that the Government still had time to bring


in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There


was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,


and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do


not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for


everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking


again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I


understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not


preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,


I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency


workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did


support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I


have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we


recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in


opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given


your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in


2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not


keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I


think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we


did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the


concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have


come from people who have come to Britain over many generations


contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise


that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible


for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures


that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people


have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.


Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled


and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on


immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total


net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in


migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --


twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We


set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and


it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?


Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to


Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have


become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that


has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls


from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have


sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm


debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the


full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What


that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this


country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.


Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people


coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come


to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of


control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was


that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern


Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened


with not having transitional controls in place. The Government


didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way


it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.


We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened


in countries all over the world. We travel and trade far more than ever.


We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries


have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing


countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am


trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you


lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have


already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a


transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would


have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have


brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in


towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration


because there are different kinds of migration. University students


coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the


other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the


jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour


market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of


migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the


lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go


to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came


from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder


of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and


the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are


nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that


immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a


mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession


groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the


changes that happened. Secondly, in answer to the question that you just


asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system


at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the


number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought


billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not


distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is


starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem


is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not


address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats


university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low


skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to


bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we


would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There


is something called student visas, which is not included in the


figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a


figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They


come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they


come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to


come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the


system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate


and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give


us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have


seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made


a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is


right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which


we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to


listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then


she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has


chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I


think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and


reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.


OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000


front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to


fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that


you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the


Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.


Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,


and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have


also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions


dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not


having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential


increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth


areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is


about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over


many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in


the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People


like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it


leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens


commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been


the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of


people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is


about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working


with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of


their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved


with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was


to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you


would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in


all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is


competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime


and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point


about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.


It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of


communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?


Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised


concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,


Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million


and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability


at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.


So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is


which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out


a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would


be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't


volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I


think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented


things and made it harder to get collaboration between police


forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What


is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't


complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!


In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential


for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the


Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game


plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.


In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you


didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.


Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling


off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the


scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of


scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?


There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and


another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at


conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain


Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he


may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of


thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you


ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be


Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to


be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of


course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going


to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader,


another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job


Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It


is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson


to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so


that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.


And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man


who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris


replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job.


Why might he make such a jibe? Because he has won two more


elections and the Prime Minister. The Conservatives like a winner.


Boris, against public expectation, even within the party expectation,


has won the Mayor of London job twice. I don't buy into the idea


that London is an inherently Labour city, but it is not a Conservative


city either. He might have built a following with the grassroots but is


on shaky ground with Tory MPs who see him as a selfish clown, unfit


for high office. And besides, he is not the only one with king-size


ambitions. And Boris and George are not close, however much they prayed


-- profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for us, the


England a yang. In plain black-and-white, if Boris has a


plan, you cannot instigate it. If David Cameron is PM in 2016, he may


never be able to implement. It would not be plain sailing if he did make


a leadership bid. My leadership's chances are as good as my chances as


being reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high,


actually. So if the job you want with Brownesque desire is


potentially never to be yours, what do you do? He is, of course, an


American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital. So


he is qualified to be President of the United States. And you don't


need an IQ over 16 to find that the tinciest bit scary.


Giles Dilnot reporting. Let's get some money out of this panel. Helen,


is there a Boris plan, and what is it? I think it is to say what the


Tory activist base wants to say right now and know that in 18 months


he can disown it. I think he's wrong. The way that speeches have


played has alienate it an enormous number of people. Boris's great


strength was that he won London and had cross-party appeal, and now he


will reconfirm the Tories being the nasty party that they are, and


they've just been pretending to be modern. Is it not the blunt truth


that he needs Mr Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in


this decade? Yes, I think it's interesting watching his fortunes


waxed and waned. It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how


well David Cameron is doing. There is no small element of strategy


about what we are doing here. It is about appealing to the Tory party,


and Boris's problem is that he is popular with the country but not


with the MPs in the party and its hard-core supporters, and that is


what this week has been about. So it was an appeal to the grassroots?


Yes, it was. He's not the only potential candidate, naturally. If


we were in a circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr


Cameron, who would be the other front runners? I think they would


skip a generation like go down to some 2010. I don't buy the idea that


it is Jeremy Hunt versus Michael Gove versus more -- George Osborne.


I think by then that generation of people will be tainted by being in


government for that long. It's revealing we always analyse Boris


Johnson's statements from a nakedly political angle, which constituency


of opinion is he trying to buy off. We underestimate how ideological he


is. He doesn't believe in many things but he believes in a few


quite deeply, and one is the idea of competition in the economic sphere


and education, in other words academic selection. He has never


been squeamish about expressing that. We do make a mistake sometimes


in assuming that he is entirely political. He's mainly political,


but partly ideological. Look at the Northern voters who won't vote for


the -- Tory party because they just feel they could never do it. They


would vote UKIP. I don't think he helps at all. Who would help the


Tories there? Theresa May has also been giving it some hard-core nasty.


You go out to dinner with him, like I have, and it is like dining with a


film star. People queue up to speak to him. He has gone a bit soft on


Europe, from the perspective of the party, soft on immigration. So


educational selection is one of the areas he can offer to people on his


own side. He has gone liberal on immigration, as America London would


have to be if you want to be re-elected. -- the Mayor of London


would have to be. It's just gone 11:30am. You're watching the Sunday


Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming


up on the programme: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter


fuselage from the debris of the Clutha pub where eight people were


killed on Friday night, as the people of Glasgow try to come to


terms with what's happened. I just came from the cathedral, and I've


left a candle there and said a prayer. There are people that lost


their life. More prayers for the dead and injured are being said at a


special service at Glasgow Cathedral as we speak We're joined by the


First Minister Alex Salmond who has been paying tribute to those who


lost their lives in the accident and the emergency services at the scene


A black day for Glasgow. The First Minister's words captured the mood


of a city in shock. What should have been a fun Friday night out ended in


the deaths of eight people as a police helicopter crashed into the


roof of a busy pub. Police have named one of the victims as


48-year-old Gary Arthur from Paisley. It's being reported locally


that two other victims of Friday night's crash are pilot David Traill


and police officer Kirsty Nelis. This morning, those who lost their


lives and those injured are being remembered at a special service at


Glasgow Cathedral. Andrew Kerr reports.


A rotor blades that once spun across the city sky on a police helicopter


is lifted from the roof of the clues. The heavy lifting gear has


been brought in the difficult task of the rest of the wreckage --


Clutha. We have lost to colleagues and three members of the police


family, and whilst there are eight other families in mourning, the


biggest family will find this a difficult day indeed. The people of


the city have been overwhelmed by the tragic combination of


circumstances. It is such a bad tragedy, what happened there. I came


from the cathedral and I have left a candle, and to say a prayer for...


For the people that lost their lives. The death toll stands at


eight, and three helicopter crew and five in the pub -- from three


helicopter crew. Gary Arthur from Paisley was one victim. His daughter


Chloe who plays for Celtic and Scotland on the 19th paid tribute on


Twitter. I promised to do you proud. At the morning service at Glasgow


Cathedral there is support for the living and remembrance for the dead.


It is an opportunity for Glasgow to come together and pray for those in


suffering, but also to show our solidarity with those who are


suffering. So, in some way, they would get the message that they are


not alone. That the whole community here is thinking of them and, in a


sense, embracing them. As a police chaplain, the minister was in the


hospital wards in the early hours of yesterday morning. Relatives have


been keeping vigil is, sitting up bedsides. 14 people were kept in for


a second night. The tragic event brought the city together on


Scotland's national day. This is a black day for Glasgow and Scotland.


But it's also St Andrew's day. And it is a day where we can take pride


and courage in how we respond to adversity and tragedy. And that


response from our emergency services and from ordinary citizens has been


exemplary. It was a moment when political rival stood shoulder to


shoulder. Thankfully these kinds of tragic incidents happened rarely,


but we always imagine somehow that it will be somewhere else. In fact


it has happened in my hometown in Glasgow. Like the first Minister, I


would like to pay tribute to the people of Glasgow who instinctively


went to help those who were in need, Glaswegians at their best.


Among those who went to help was Labour MP Jim Murphy. This interview


flashed around the world captured the shock of the night. Jim, there


is blood on your shirt. Yes, it's not mine.


It was the busiest moment of the week at a packed and popular venue.


There are questions now as to why the helicopter fell from the sky. It


was a common sight above the heads of Glaswegians. People here and


investigators want to know what happened. It would not be unusual


for this to take a year or even longer. It depends on the


availability of evidence and how deep you need to go to find lessons


to be learned. If it is the investigation Branch, then they are


not trying to give liability, they're trying to find out how to


make the aircraft safer in the future, so that can take many


months. The police are asking for photos and videos to help


investigators. Emotions at the scene are still raw. The moment it is time


to remember the people who never came home after a night on duty or a


night out at the pub. -- at the moment.


We're joined now by our correspondent Laura Bicker who's at


the scene of Friday night's accident. Laura, heavy lifting


equipment has been brought in overnight. What's the latest? A huge


crane was brought in over night, as you say. It was brought in to, we


understand, lift the helicopter from the roof of the pub. We have seen


many firefighters over the roof of the pub this morning, and they have


been fixing wires and cables to the helicopter. We understand that the


idea is to lift the helicopter, which is still embedded in the roof


of the Clutha Vaults, so they can release the victims who may be


trapped inside. There are two things happening at the scene. The first


thing is that they need to preserve much of the scene for the


investigation and much of the helicopter still needs to be


examined by investigators. But also, within the pub, there is


still, what we understand, we believe there are victims trapped


inside. Within the last few minutes I can tell you that an ambulance,


surrounded by police motorbikes has been escorted from the scene and is


heading south of the river. That is the grim scene this morning. We


heard from Sir Stephen House yesterday that the way the


helicopter is lodged in the building is hampering the operation, so


clearly they can get in once it is moved out of the way. It is a very,


very difficult operation. There are several things to take into account


here. Not only has the helicopter become deeply embedded in the roof,


much debris has fallen down and it depended on which side of the bar


you on on Friday night as to the extent of your injuries, we heard


from eyewitnesses. A part of the roof has completely collapsed, and


certainly firefighters spent most of the early hours of Saturday morning


trying to secure the building and make it safe for people to go


inside. Another thing we need to remember here is that two police


officers were caught up in the incident, and the police are now


involved investigating a site where they have lost two of their own.


This is a very difficult situation for everyone. Laura, thank you very


much. The Queen has said the victims of


the crash were in her thoughts and prayers. Political leaders from all


parties have expressed their condolences and paid tribute to the


work of the emergency services and ordinary citizens who went to help


those in the bar. We're joined now from Fraserburgh by the First


Minister, Alex Salmond. Good afternoon. You have been taking part


in a meeting of the Scottish government's resilience committee


this morning. What more do you know about the situation? The resilience


committee is ongoing, and it meets formally twice a day. It's the point


at which all the emergency services can coordinate and make sure


everybody is acting in unison. The situation is as you know it, there


have been eight confirmed fatalities. I should say there is an


area still to be searched, the area underneath the helicopter itself. As


the Chief Constable indicated, we have to prepare ourselves for the


possibility there could be further fatalities to come. It is a confined


area, but there is a possibility. In terms of survivors there are still


12 people hospitalised, three of them in intensive care. But the good


news is though the condition is serious it is also stable. The other


thing to say is the general acclamation for the work of the


emergency services, all of its branches, as well as the heroics of


the citizens of Glasgow. Tell us a little more of the role of


government in this situation. You are supporting the emergency


services, who are very much in the lead at this stage, but what sort of


role do you and other members of the government play in this sort of


situation? The resilience committee with the coordinating committee


which make sure that the branches are working in unison. -- is the


coordinating committee. This is the first incident of this scale since


the formation of Police Scotland and Fire and rescue Scotland, and by


general acknowledgement the response of the emergency services, the first


test of these new organisations, has been extraordinary. We always know


our emergency services will respond, but to respond in the way they have


two an incident of this scale is truly exemplary. That coordinating


function is the role of government. Of course, it is necessary and


proper, not just the government, but the civic leaders as well, to inform


the public and express the views that all of us feel when we are


responding to an extraordinary crisis such as this. Sadly, these


are not the first fatalities involving a helicopter in Scotland


this year. How quickly can an investigation be carried out and the


public be given reassurance about the safety of these aircraft? That


is the province of the air accident investigation Branch who are on


site. Any further instructions come from the civil aviation authority


and these instructions are followed. When you have an extraordinary


incidents such as this, and I have represented an oil and fishing


constituency were a quarter of a century, so these tragedies are not


unknown, but when you get a situation that occurs like this,


reasonable questions are asked, but the authorities are in place to


issue the precautionary and other instructions are required for the


safety of the public. We have over 1000 helicopters like this in


service, and there are hundreds across the world in the present


moment. In terms of the other craft we have in the emergency services,


they have been inspected. The air ambulance is fully function from


this afternoon. The police have helicopter cover as required as


well, so our emergency services continue with the appropriate cover,


but any instructions that come from the civil aviation authority based


on advice from the air accident investigation Branch, these would be


followed. There have been problems with these helicopters in the past


with an incident only recently where helicopters were grounded will stop


what would you say to the public who may need the issuance? --


reassurance. They were grounded for 24 hours, it was not a design


aspect. The resolution of that was for inspections of the cast is not


just in Scotland but around the world and the grounding was led by a


European agency. You have to understand this as an aircraft which


has been in service for many years and over 1000 have been produced


with hundreds in service at the moment, so speculation is


understandable but had to follow the facts as rendered by the accident


investigation Branch. Thank you. Players have been offered


for the victims and their families at a special service at Glasgow


Cathedral this morning. -- prayers. What words of comfort have been


offered? This has been a sombre but absolutely beautiful service at


Glasgow Cathedral this morning. Around 500 people from all walks of


life across all religions and the political spectrum have come here to


pay their respects and paid tribute to those who have lost their lives


and think of those still seriously injured and two paid tribute to that


tremendous effort from the emergency services. The message from the


Minister is that we must face this together. That is what he said in


the sermon and that has been the theme. It is about the spirit of the


city and pulling together and he has mentioned the triumph of the human


spirit. He spoke about the lighting of the candles of hope, in memory of


those named locally. He said it is not just to remember them but also a


sign that darkness shall not snatch everything from us. It was the


children from the Sunday school who met those candles. People from


across the political spectrum, Margaret Curran is in the, the


Deputy first Minister Nicola Sturgeon gave a leading from the old


Testament and the Justice Secretary Kenny McAskill has also given a


reading. There are vast range of views and I have spoken to people


going in this morning and they are pulling together and making this


massive effort to show the people of Glasgow, we can get through this and


face it together. Is there a sense that more people than normal largely


because people are looking for this comfort? I have spoken to a number


of people who came in this morning, many people who live near the Clutha


Vaults, they have come here to pay their respects and say they want to


remember those who have lost their lives than those entered, and to


show their support. There's an outpouring of support for those


firefighters and paramedics and have seen all of them represented here


today. I spoke to the Deputy chief fire officer who said he is so


immensely proud of his services, who have pooled together not just from


across Glasgow but the whole country, and he wants to know just


how proud he is. Thank you. Joining me now live in


the studio is the Scottish Labour leader, Johann Lamont. It is


desperately sad. I heard the news while travelling home on Friday and


it was beyond belief. Liking a lot of people in Glasgow, we wear on the


phone to check people we knew and we were fortunate not to get that


horrific realisation. We have seen the common humanity that we have


found that people have gone to hell and that must make us feel strong in


these times, but also our frailty that in the midst of enjoying


ourselves these things can happen. It feels just terribly sad and


slow-moving and that package, people recognising the belief in the face


is because for some families this will go on and on. We have questions


but we hope together we can help those in these difficult times and


we recognise the emergency services and of how council workers were


contacted and came in to help. It is something we can be proud of in


these difficult times. Difficult work for the emergency


services but an added poignancy because of know amongst the victims


are members of the Roman forces? We realise that while we were out


enjoying ourselves the where people protecting us and looking out for


our safety. Terribly sad and I again I have them speaking movingly of the


police family and how difficult it is. Talking about the investigation


and that needs to take time but we understand people will need


reassurance because there are so many of these aircraft flying


around. Everything is being done properly with the proper


investigation is going through, and I know there will be families who


will have a lot of questions and it is important they get those answers.


Everyone wants to know, how did I lose my loved one, so the system has


to recognise that and help people through it. The investigations are


complex and very detailed and we need to get to the heart of what


happened rather than speculating, because that must also be heart


full. -- hurtful. Because it is complex it will take time and in the


meantime people will look for reassurance? The people that know


best how these machines work can know how to inspect them, we have


confidence that those in responsibility will take the


responsibility seriously, so people worried about whether they is a


bigger problem, we will get that. How important is it that people are


unable to get together and shared the common bond? -- are able. It is


hugely moving that people come together and people with and without


faith understand the importance of holding onto a powerful thing


amongst all of this, that they are there's something about us as


communities responding to that that will help people through. When


churches can give voice to that, they provide an important service to


all of us. People are very moved by simply because they afford the


opportunity to speak on our behalf. If we can help, we will, and we


understand that what you are facing is something none of us want to


face. St Andrew's Day and the run-up to Christmas, a busy time for


Glasgow and what is your sense as a Glasgow MSP as to how the city is


dealing with that? There's a shock and from something extraordinary


happening in a normal place, I have people saying they always go there,


so there's that kind of thing going on and then the shop in the middle


it. A story you could not have imagined yourself seeing. People are


coming to terms with it and there's sense of pride. The pride in the


people that work for the Council and the emergency services but also the


Glaswegian people wanting to do the right thing. That is some comfort


but there's no doubt that this period will be about coming to terms


with that. I just hope anybody in my own constituency who feels that I


could help in any way, I will and that is true across the political


spectrum. We have people need help we will make sure they get help and


are supported and we know everybody in the responsibility in this


process has stepped up to the mark remarkably. For those who do not


know that part of Glasgow, something of a Glasgow institution in terms of


the live music and the people that Locklear. I used to go to the May


Day marches and demonstrations and that was a place you would go when


on the way back. People from the courts go there as well, and it was


warm, kind and funny. An entertaining Glasgow pub. It is a


landmark in Glasgow and the place people now, and now those pictures


are just incredible, but in all of this we have to reflect that for


some people with is not just a story but something that has changed their


lives forever. Thank you. 14 people remain in hospitals across


the city with what are described as serious injuries. The Medical


Director of Greater Glasgow Health Board, Dr Jennifer Armstrong, said


in the main people were suffering from head and chest injuries, long


bone-fractures and lacerations. Laura Maxwell is outside Glasgow


Royal Infirmary. What is being said there was


morning? This was one of the hospitals in Glasgow where the


casualties were taken on Friday evening. We now 32 casualties where


originally taken to hospital and 18 have been discharged. The official


figure is that 14 remain in hospital, some seriously injured,


but as we have been hearing that situation is changing. The first


Minister Alex Salmond says 12 remain in hospital with three in intensive


care. We also heard that an ambulance has just left the scene


and made its way south of the lover, and that means the medics and admin


staff must of course still remain on stand-by because many people are


seeing this as a recovery operation but they are there's still some slim


hope people can be taken out and brought to these emergency units.


When a major incident is confirmed, hospitals going to a locked down and


no other casualties were brought here, soap actress Julie the


accident and emergency department was very quiet. -- so actually. The


one vehicle with flashing lights was the Glasgow blood donation car.


Staff responded very well and that is something being said of services


across the city, but we had people volunteering to comment even know


what was the night off. I spoke briefly to some of those staff as


they left the hospital around two o'clock in the morning. The medical


director of NHS greater Glasgow and Clyde has paid tribute to all the


staff involved, many of whom came in on the night off. The staff have


said they are used to dealing with these sort of incidents but it is


not until a period after the incident they get time to pause and


deal with what they have seen. The injuries we are talking about our


head and chest injuries, compressions and lacerations and


fractures to arms and legs. The sort of injuries you would expect to see


in a crash situation like this. We have also heard the Glasgow blood


relations service open their doors this morning, and even small things


like a Glasgow taxi companies saying yesterday if relatives were


struggling to get transport to hospitals, to give them a fallen and


they would bring them up here for free. -- a phone. As you might


imagine this morning's newspapers are full of details of


Starting with the Sunday Times, eight dead, 14 seriously hurt. They


have descriptions from witnesses talking about how they heard a loud


bang followed by falling debris as the bar filled with dust and smoke


as people fought to find the exit. A simple headline on the front of the


Sunday Herald. The picture shows firefighters working through the


night at the Clutha Vaults. Lots of eyewitness testimony, lots of people


talking about their desire for news. One woman inside the Sunday Herald


talking about her aunt and uncle who go to the pub every Friday, but no


one has come home, she tells the paper. I've checked that the houses


and the hospitals but there is no sign of them. The front page of


Scotland on Sunday. Eight die in pub crash tragedy. They talk about the


fact 14 people are still seriously ill after the police helicopter fell


onto the Clutha bar and the pictures showing the rescue operation with


firefighters and those who had emerged from the pub. The sun on


Sunday, a simple headline, one word, into. Pictures of some of those who


have been named as victims -- entombed. The Sunday mail, horror at


the Clutha, pictures of the daytime operation here. They have pictures


of some of those who have been named locally as victims of this tragedy.


Horror at the Clutha is the headline. I'm joined now by Gillian


Bowditch, who is a columnist and feature writer for the Sunday Times


in Scotland, and by George Kerevan, who is a political commentator. Good


afternoon to both of you. We have just looked at some of the coverage


there and I wonder what you make of what you've seen. Fairly harrowing


testimony, George. What I thought is that the tragedy brought out how


good the Scottish pressure could be. Immediate news does come from the


television, but the Scottish press were very good at digging in and


getting the photographs and the street interviews, getting the


background and getting round the coverage. Those photographs are very


moving. Yes, very dramatic and a sense of the city coming together


and a sense of community. You get the human stories behind the


tragedy. It is heartbreaking and devastating for the families


involved. You get a real sense of emotion. And a sense of common


humanity and the sense of people pulling together. At the end of the


week where we had the White Paper and the politics have been a bit


fractious, it's terrible that this has happened, but it reminds us that


what binds us together is more than what separates us. The focus in the


newspapers today very much on the human stories. I mention a story


from the Sunday Herald, the tragic story of the woman still waiting for


a news of her aunt and uncle, and there will be many other people in


similar positions. It was fascinating to read of the


cross-section of people in Glasgow who were in the pub. It reminds you


that Glasgow is a very convivial city. The pubs are not stratified


with one class here or there, it brought together a lot of people,


which magnified the tragedy on Friday. I'm also struck by the fact


that many people are named in the newspapers, and this is a change in


terms of how we deal with the tragedy. People have been talking on


social media about those who have died. Previously we would have had


to wake the police, but now these names are emerging. -- had to wait


for the police. Twitter was incredible at 10:30pm, and it was


incredible with people talking about what they saw from the rooms around,


the sense of shock at seeing the helicopter. A huge variety of


eyewitness testimony there. And you have the instance of people who are


missing, putting appeals on social media. It is very fast paced.


Indeed, we have been reporting this morning about the comments on


Twitter, the one officially named victim, his daughter, very moving.


It confirms that nothing will ever happen in the world good or bad ever


again because people can report it themselves now. What is your sense


of how politicians have dealt with all of this? We look for them for


leadership that they are human beings as well. They have do deal


with perhaps more detail than we are getting at times. I think they've


done well across the board, across the parties. Alex Salmond has summed


up the mood of the nation. And Nicola Sturgeon. They have both been


incredibly busy this weekend I thought Nicola did very well in the


televised debate, but she looked really tired. It's been a long week


for a lot of politicians. They have done us proud, actually, Joanne


Lamont as well, the Queen, David Cameron -- Johann Lamont. Just that


sense of loss everybody feels. What is your sense of how the politicians


have handled this, George? A situation like this is always


dangerous politicians. The emergency is handled by the emergency


services, unless it is a mega event, then the politician can only stand


by and make the right kind of comment. And then sum up the mood of


the nation. And I actually think Alex Salmond did that very well


yesterday, putting St Andrews Day in the context of what was going on.


Questions being asked now about what happened here, and clearly an


investigation will happen. There will be a degree of pressure on


politicians to come up with some answers to reassure the public. I


think so. Once the aftermath clears away, and it will dominate the news


headlines next week, the Independent on Sunday has a good story about


looking at the safety concerns around the make of the helicopter.


There were two directives from the aviation authority about it. It was


grounded in 2012. The focus will be on what happened, why it happened as


we've had some helicopter disasters in the North Sea. Growing concerns


about these vehicles, and the politicians will have to come up


with an answer and ensure that people are reassured. It is a


cliche, but these are war curse -- walk forces for the emergency


services -- workhorses. They are lifelines in Scotland. It remind you


that helicopters are dangerous machines. They are more dangerous


and complicated beasts than the aeroplanes flying on holiday.


Helicopters operate close to the ground and mechanically are


fiendishly complicated devices and lots of things can go wrong with the


linkages. Because they operate close to the ground, you are in turbulent


air, there is a limited time for a pilot to get out of danger something


goes wrong. Even when he comes close to the ground, the way air


compacts, the rotors can lose traction. You need really good


pilots and you have to keep on top of the mechanics of the machines. I


think there will be a lot of discussion about how we can manage


helicopters from now on. Although the tragic outcome to this is there,


there is praising the newspapers for the pilot, and a realisation it


could have been a lot worse -- there is praise in the newspapers. You are


right, it could have been worse. The fuel tank could have exploded. It


could have been a terrible tragedy. There were 120 people in the pub and


most of them walked out of it. A real sense of the disaster scenario,


with Glasgow coming together. There are three hospitals nearby.


Everything seemed to go smoothly. And the test of the integrated Fire


service. We had fire expertise from all over Scotland able to come into


the scenario and clearly, the police, they are suffering because


it's their colleagues who have died. It does seem to have been an


exemplary rescue situation. Glasgow city council say they are opening a


book of condolence in one -- at 1pm for people to go along and sign up


the chambers. A sense of people coming together seems to be


important at this time. It is. We are coming to the end of the year


and people will think about where they have been and what has been


happening. One did not want this to happen, but in a way it has made us


pause in the middle of what has been a long political campaign about the


referendum, and we are all human beings. A chance for people to think


about the work of the emergency services. Johann Lamont saying that


while people were out enjoying Friday night there were people ready


and poised to keep the country safe. Yes, and it sounds like the


emergency services did really well, but you have the situation where


people are offering their services, taxi drivers offering to take people


to hospital to visit relatives. A real sense of Glasgow at its best.


Glasgow has a reputation as a city which is very convivial, very


community minded, and we really saw that with this and I think it will


continue this weekend. As George says, when the shops of all, people


think about Christmas, it is very poignant and distressing that it


should have happened so close to Christmas. The whole notion of a


Glasgow spirit, one would hope the same would be true if this happened


anywhere else in Scotland. But there is something about Glasgow that is


special, I think. Indeed. That's all from the us this week. There's an


update on all of the days news on Reporting Scotland here on BBC One


Scotland tonight at 6:10pm and continuing coverage on the BBC


Scotland news website. I'll be back at the same time next week. Until


then, goodbye.


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.