08/12/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. First some


Sunday-morning cheer, if you're an MP that is. You're set to get an 11%


pay rise! But what does this man deserve? The Chancellor's gone from


zero to hero for some, who credit him for turning the economy around.


We'll be taking a fine tooth comb to his Autumn statement.


Should this man get an 11% pay rise? Ed Balls was certainly working very


hard to be heard last Thursday. We'll be reviewing his performance.


And what about this man? We'll be joined by England's Chief Inspector


of Schools. He's been writing his annual report this week. Will the


Government achieve an A star? And coming up on Sunday Politics


Scotland, join us for our end-of-year review.


they achieved a C+. But they are all we could afford and there will be no


pay rise for them. They will be glued to an electronic device


throughout the programme and if we are lucky they might stop there


internet shopping and tweet something intelligent. But don't


hold your breath. Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Last


week, storms were battering Britain, the East Coast was hit by the worst


tidal surge in more than a century, thousands of people had to be


evacuated and Nelson Mandela died. The downed the news agenda was the


small matter of George Osborne's Autumn Statement. His giveaways, his


takeaways and his first opportunity to announce some economic cheer.


It might be winter outside, but in the studios it is awesome. Autumn


Statement time. -- autumn. This is a moment of TV history. Normally when


the Chancellor delivers these statements, he has to say the


economy is actually a lot worse than everyone predicted. This time, he


can stand up and say the economy is better than everybody predicted. A


lot better. Britain is currently growing faster


than any other major advanced economy. Faster than France, which


is contracting, faster than Germany, faster even than America. At this


Autumn Statement last year, there were repeated predictions that


borrowing would go up. Instead, borrowing is down, and down


significantly more than forecast. But George Osborne said the good


numbers still mean more tough decisions. We will not give up in


giving in our country's debts. We will not spend the money from lower


borrowing. We will not squander the harder and games of the British


people. -- hard earned gains. In other news, further cuts to


government departments. The state pension age will increase in the


2040s, affecting people in their 40s now. There were some goodies, like


discounted business rates for small businesses, free school meals for


infants, favoured by the Lib Dems, and those marriage tax breaks below


that by the Tories. But, as with all big fiscal events, it takes a while


for the details to sink in. The marriage tax allowance is a


long-standing commitment that he could not abandon. It does help


those families were only one goes out to work. It does not go to


higher rate taxpayers, I don't think. Perhaps it does, I can't


remember. It makes me feel guilty, I am taking them very seriously,


but... Shall I give you them? There is the Autumn Statement. Have that,


a free gift from the Sunday Politics. Is there no limit to the


generosity of the BBC? In the meantime, Twitter was awash


with unflattering pictures of a red-faced Ed Balls giving his


response. Some pictures were more than flattering than others. Is Ed


Balls OK? Should we be worrying about him? He looks very stressed.


There is nothing to worry about in terms of Ed balls and his analysis.


He and Ed Miliband have been setting the pace in terms of the focus on


the living standards crisis. It was very telling that there was not a


mention of living standards last time, we got 12 mentions this time.


Never mind what he was saying, by now everybody has a copy of the


all-important paperwork. Time to hand over to number cruncher


extraordinaire Paul Johnson from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Of


course it means that things are significantly better this year and


next than we thought they would be just nine months ago. That has got


to be good news. But it is also worth looking at the growth figures


a few years out. They have been revised down a little bit. The


reason is, the view of the office of budget response ability is that the


long run has not really changed very much. We are getting a bit more


growth now, but their view is that it is at the cost of a little bit of


the growth we will expect in the years after the next general


election. As the day draws to a close, the one place there has


definitely been no growth is the graphics budget of my colleague,


Robert Preston. It's as good as it gets these days, I don't think the


viewers will mind. It's very Sunday Politics, if I might say. That is


very worrying. Was this a watershed for George


Osborne? Was it a watershed for Ed Balls? We can all make the case that


it is the wrong sort of recovery, a consumer led recovery. People are


spending money they don't have. At the end of the day, it for George


Osborne, it is growth, the first time he has been able to talk about


growth. It allows him to control the baseline, the fiscal debate for the


next generation. For Ed Balls, nearly not a good performance. But


don't write this man off. Judging by Twitter, Iain Dale, no friend of it


all is, said he did a good interview this morning on a rival TV channel.


I feel the fact that the Tories hate Ed Balls so passionately is probably


a good reason that they should hang onto him, in that Labour sends his


effectiveness. May be the Tories hope that they hold on to him as


well? A lot of people shouting at someone and mocking their speech


impediment, that is politics that doesn't make me want to engage. The


takeaway will be lots of people thinking that none of these people


are people they like. Who is the main heckler on the Labour front


bench West remarked I suppose he can't cast any stones. It would be


easier to sympathise with him, if it were not that David Cameron went


through a similar situation and John Bercow did not step in to stop the


wall of noise. It was guaranteed a good happen to a Labour politician.


It's painful to remove him because he had a Parliamentary following and


he will kick up a fuss. I think he's much more pragmatic on issues like


business than Ed Miliband. I'm told he wasn't keen on the energy price


freeze. The problem with Ed Balls, to have the first words that you


say, the Chancellor is in denial, after he is presiding over growth,


it means nobody is listening to you. Who would replace him? Certainly not


Alistair Darling, the side of the referendum and even afterwards. Ed


Balls did get a roasting in the press and on Twitter. He seemed to


disappear from public view following the Autumn Statement. But a little


bird tells me he managed one interview this morning before he


went off to an all-important piano recital this afternoon. Watch out,


Jools Holland, he could be after your job. How bad was his


performance on Thursday? Here is the Shadow Chancellor in action. The


Chancellor is incomplete denial about the central facts that are


defining this government in office. He used to say he would balance the


books in 2015. Now he wants us to congratulate him for saying he will


do it in 2019, Mr Speaker. With this government, it is clearly not just


the badgers that move the goalposts. No mention of the universal credit


in the statement. IDS, in deep shambles, Mr Speaker. Chris Leslie


is the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. He is Ed Balls's deputy,


in other words. Why do more and more of your Labour colleagues think that


your boss is below the water line? I'm not sure I accept the premise of


your suggestion. I don't think my colleagues believe that George


Osborne has a superior argument. I think Ed Balls will certainly trying


his best, loud and clear, to make the case there is a cost of living


crisis in this country and the Chancellor doesn't understand this.


That was essentially the heat of the debate on the Autumn Statement day.


One leading Labour MPs said to me that Ed Balls is always looking


back, fixated with the rear-view mirror, that was the exact quote. A


Labour MP told Sky News, Labour has a strong argument to make,


unfortunately it was not made well in the chamber today. Quoting the


Daily Mail, this is two poor performances. A quote that I can't


use because it uses too many four letter words. Baroness Armstrong,


speaking at Progress, a former Labour Cabinet minister, we are not


sufficiently concerned about public spending, how we would pay for what


we are talking about. Quite a battering? There were two sets of


quotes you were giving. The couple were about the strategy for tackling


public expenditure. I think it's fair that we talk about that. The


rest were pretty unattributed, nameless sources. You have never


given and of the record briefing? We have conversations off camera, but I


don't think you have a wealth of evidence to say that somehow Ed


Balls's arguments were wrong. He was making the point that, ultimately,


it is a government that does not have its finger on the pulse about


what most of your viewers are concerned about, that wages are


being squeezed and prices are getting higher and higher. You have


had time to study the Autumn Statement. What part of it does


Labour disagree with? It is a very big question. I think the overall


strategy the Autumn Statement is setting out does not deal with the


fundamental problems in the economy. What measures do you disagree with?


A lot of it is the absence of measures we would have put in if we


were doing the Autumn Statement. If you are going to deal with the cost


of living crisis, you have got to get productivity levels up in our


society. One of the best ways of doing that is on infrastructure. We


believe in bringing forward 's investment and housing, getting some


of the fundamentals right in our economy. By planting, the business


lending we have to do. We have seen a lamentable failing. There are big


structural reforms that we need. Ultimately, the public are concerned


about the cost of living crisis. That has got to be childcare help, a


10p starting rate of tax. Above all, and energy price freeze, which


still this government are refusing to do. On Friday, you told me you


supported the principle of a welfare cap. But you change bling claim the


Chancellor's cap included pensions. You have now seen the figures, and


it does not include pensions, correct? We do want a welfare cap.


The government have said they are going to put more detail on this in


the March budget. But it does not include pensions? We think they have


a short term approach to the welfare cap. They put in some pension


benefits. The state pension is not in the short-term plan because, as


we believe, a triple lock is a good idea. In the longer term, if you are


talking about structural welfare issues, you do have to think about


pensions because they have to be sustainable if we are living


longer. I think that is about the careful management. Let me show you


what Ed Balls said on this programme at the start of the summer. As for


pensioners, I think this is a real question. George Osborne is going to


announce his cap in two weeks time. I don't know if he will exclude


pension spending or including. Our plan is to include it. Pension


spending would be included in the welfare cap? That is our plan,


exactly what I just said. Over the long-term, if you have a serious


welfare cap structural welfare issues, over 20, 30, 40 year


period, you can't say that we will not work and pensions as part of


that. Pensions would be part of the Labour cap? In the longer term. What


is the longer term? If you win 2015? We want to stick with the triple


lock on the pension, that is the Government approach to their


short-term welfare cap. In the longer term, for example, on the


winter fuel allowance, we should not necessarily be... There are lots of


benefits... I understand that, I am talking about the basic state


pension, is that part of your welfare cap or not? In a 20, 30, 40


year frame... Even you will not be around in government, then. You are


writing me off already. You have to focus on welfare changes, pensions


have to be affordable as part of that. It's dangerous to say, well,


if you are going to have a serious welfare cap, we should not look at


pensions cost. It would be irresponsible. Will pensions be part


of the cap from 2015 until 2020 if Labour is in power? In our long-term


cap we have to make sure... I'm talking about 2015-16. We haven't


seen the proposition the Government has put before us.


You claim people of ?1600 worse off under the coalition. That is true


when you compare to pay and prices. Can you confirm that calculation


does not include the ?700 tax cut from raising the income tax


threshold, huge savings on mortgages because of low interest or the


freezing of council tax? It doesn't include the tax and benefit


changes. If you do want to look at those, last year, the ISS said they


could be making people worse off. It might not include those factors. The


VAT increase, tax credit cuts, child benefit cuts, they all add up. My


understanding is that the ISS figures have said people are ?891


worse off if you look at the tax and benefit changes since 2010. You have


to look at wages and prices. The ISS confirmed our approach was broadly


the right way of assessing what is happening. The Chancellor was


saying, real household disposable incomes are rising. He is completely


out of touch. Can you sum up the macro economic policy for Labour?


Invest in the future, make sure we have the right approach for the


long-term politicking. Tackle the cost of living crisis people are


facing. Now, let's talk to the Financial


Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid Javid.


Discovery, underpinned by rising house prices, increasing personal


debt, do you accept that is unsustainable?


I accept the OBE are also said the reason why this country is facing


more these challenges -- OBR. That is because we went through a


Labour recession, the worst we have seen in 100 years. But do you accept


that a recovery underpinned by these things I have just read out isn't


sustainable? We set out a long-term plan for recovery, and again this


week. We have shown with the tough decisions we have made already, the


country can enjoy a recovery. There are still a lot of difficult


decisions. The biggest risk are Labour's plans. The March


projections work at for those -- for both business investment and


exports. Suddenly it is expected to rise 5% next year, a 10% turnaround


in investment. How is it credible? I have been in business before


politics. Any business person listening will know, when you have


gone through a recession, the deepest in 100 years, it will hit


investment, profits, you can't make plans again until you have


confidence in the economy. That is what this country is seeing now


under this government. This is an assumption made independently. The


fall in business investment is because of the recession. The


forecast increases, 5% next year, and so on, it is based on the


independent forecast. Based on fact. If you look at the investment plans


of companies, this week, the Chancellor went to JCB, Jaguar Land


Rover has plans to create more jobs, these investment plans are


coming through now because of the confidence generated by this


government, such as the cut in corporation tax which Labour would


increase. Are the export forecasts more credible? The 15 years, our


share of world trade decline. Suddenly starting next year, it


stops falling. That's not credible. I worked in finance the 20 years. I


have yet to find any forecast which is fully right. Under Labour, we


would have forecasts made by Gordon Brown who would announce he would


hit all his targets. Now we have an independent system.


Do you accept, if exports or business investment do not pick up,


then a purely consumer led recovery is not sustainable? We need more


than a consumer led recovery. We need consumer investment to go up.


On Xbox, it is noticeable that experts are primarily down because


the markets we trade with, the eurozone markets, are depressed.


Many have just come out of recession. Or they are still in


recession. If you look at exports to non-EU countries, they are up 30%.


120% to China. 100% to Russia. Will you keep the triple lock for


the state pension beyond 2015? Yes, long term. That's why it is not part


of our welfare cap. Chris Leslie cannot answer that question. It is


straightforward. House prices are now rising ten


times faster than average earnings. That's not good. House prices are


rising, partly reflecting recovery. Ten times faster than average


earnings, how can people afford to buy homes if it carries on? What you


would hope, this is the evidence, if you look at the plans of the month


companies, they are planning new homes which will mean that, as this


demand spurs that investment, more homes will come about. We need to


give people the means to buy those homes. We have introduced the help


to buy scheme. I accept the OBR says it will start rising again but as


household debt rises again Petr Cech reduces, -- as household debt


reduces, we need to make sure there are checks in place. Wages have not


been rising in real terms for quite some time. Over the next five years,


even as the economy grows, by about 15% according the OBR to the OBR --


but people will not benefit. These hard-working families will not share


in the recovery. What is the best way to help those families? The


government doesn't set wages. What we can do is influence the overall


economy. We don't have a magic lever. Wages have been stagnating


for five years. When will people get a proper salary? The best way for


wage growth is a growing economy, more jobs. We have more people


employed in Britain today than at any time in our history. The biggest


risk to recovery is if we let Labour into the Treasury with more spending


and more debt. Which got us into this trouble. By whatever measure


you care to choose, would people be better off come the 20 15th election


than they were in 2010? Yes, they will be. Look at jobs. Already more


people employed than at any other time in history. Will they be better


off? The best way for anyone to raise their living standards is


access to a growing job market. But will they be better off? I believe


people will be. Compared to 2010. Yes. In terms of take-home pay. This


is a credible measure. Now, what do you think the Education


Secretary, Michael Gove, was like at school? Hard-working? Hand always


up? Top of the class? Well, if he wasn't passionate about education


then, he is now. In fact, since he took office, it seems he hasn't


stopped working very hard indeed. When the coalition came to power,


Michael Gove evoked Mao, saying they were on a long march to reform


education. Just like Mao, they faced a baby boom, so pledged ?5 billion


for new school places. They extended Labour's academy programme. There's


now about 3,000 in England. But then, they marched even further,


creating free schools run by parents, funded by taxpayers. 174


have opened so far. The schools admission code was changed, to give


parents more choice. And a pupil premium was introduced,


currently, an extra ?900 funding for each disadvantaged child.


An overhaul of the national curriculum provoked criticism.


Chairman Gove mocked detractors as "bad academia". But exam reforms


didn't quite go to plan. Although GCSEs got harder, plans to replace


A-levels had to be abandoned. Ultimately, the true test of these


reforms will be what happens in the classroom. The person in charge of


making sure those classrooms are up to scratch in England is the Chief


Inspector Of Schools, head of Ofsted, Michael Wilshaw, who joins


me now. Over the past 15 years, we have


doubled spending on schools even allowing for inflation. By


international standards, we are stagnating, why? I said last year


that mediocrity had settled into the system. Too many children were


coasting in schools, which is why we changed the grading structure, we


removed that awful word, satisfactory. Saying that good is


now the only acceptable standard and schools had a limited time in which


to get to that. We are seeing gradually, it is difficult to say


this in the week we have had the OECD report. Things have gradually


improved. I will come onto that in a minute. Explain this. International


comparisons show us flat-lining or even falling in some subjects,


including science. For 20 years, our domestic exam results just got


better and better. Was this a piece of fiction fed to us by the


educational establishment, was there a cover-up? There is no question


there has grade inflation. I speak as an ex-headteacher who saw that in


examinations. Perceptual state is actually doing something about that.


Most good heads will say that is about time. We have to be credible.


Do politicians and educationalists conspire in this grade inflation? It


might suit politicians to say things are going up every year. As a head,


I knew a lot of the exams youngsters were sitting were not up to scratch.


The latest OECD study places us 36th for maths, 23rd reading, slipping


down to 21st in science. Yet, Ofsted, your organisation,


designates 80% of schools as good or outstanding. That's another fiction.


This year, we have. If we see this level of progress, it has been a


remarkable progress over the last years since we changed our grading


structure, then... In a year, absolutely. We have better teachers


coming into our school system. Better leaders. Better schools. The


big challenge for our country is making sure that progress is


maintained which will eventually translate into better outcomes.


These figures are pretty much up-to-date. Are you saying within a


year 80% of the schools are good enough? All of the schools we


upgraded have had better grades in GCSE and grade 2. We have to make


sure that is maintained. The Government has based its reforms on


similar reforms in Sweden. In opposition they were endlessly going


to Stockholm to find out how it was done. Swedish schools are doing even


worse than ours in the tables. Why are we copying failure? The


secretary of state believes, and I actually believe, as somebody who


has come from an academy model, that if you hand power and resources, you


hand autonomy to the people on the ground, to the people in the


classroom, in the corridors, in the playgrounds, things work. If you


allow the great monoliths that used to have responsibility for education


in the past to take control again, you will see a reverse in standards.


You have got to actually empower those people that make the


difference. That is why autonomy and freedom is important. We spent a lot


of money moving what were local authority schools to become


academies and new free school czar being set up as well. When the


academies are pretty much the same level of autonomy, the free school


is maybe a little bit more, the evidence we have had so far is that


they don't really perform any better than local authority schools?


Indeed, Encore GCSE subjects, they might even be doing worse? These are


early days. We will say more about this on weapons they when we produce


the annual report. The sponsored academies that took over the worst


schools in the country, in the most difficult circumstances, in the most


disadvantaged communities, are doing much better now. What about GCSE?


They are doing GCSE equivalents, the lass academic subjects question my


cull OK, but they are doing better than previous schools. If you look


at the top performing nations in the world, they focus on the quality of


teaching. The best graduates coming to education. They professionally


develop them. They make sure they spot the brightest talents and get


them into positions as soon as possible. We have got to do the same


if we are going to catch up with those jurisdictions. This isn't just


a British problem. It seems to be a European problem. The East Asian


countries now dominate the top of the tables. What's the most


important lesson we should learn from East Asia? Attitudes to work.


We need to make sure that we invest in good teachers, good leaders. We


have to make sure that students have the right attitudes to work. It's no


good getting good people into the classroom and then seeing them part


of teaching by bad behaviour, disaffected youngsters and poor


leadership. We see young teachers doing well for a time and then being


put off teaching and leaving from that sort of culture in our schools.


Are you a cheerleader for government education policy rather than


independent inspectors? I am independent, Ofsted is independent.


I believe we are Are you enjoying it? It is a tough


job. Sometimes I enjoyed it. Your job is more difficult than mine.


You're watching the Sunday at Cap politics. -- Sunday Politics.


Good morning and welcome to the last Sunday Politics Scotland of 2013.


Coming up on the programme: Humility, humanity, humour. Scotland


remembers Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela left perpetual scores in our


Hearts. We will remember him as a man who single-handedly changed the


political climate of the whole world. May his soul rest in peace.


And it's that time of year. On our last programme of 2013, we reflect


on the top stories of 2013. It's been a busy one.


This weekend Scotland joined the world in saying goodbye to a man who


was the figurehead of a movement for freedom and the father of a nation.


Anti-apartheid campaigners here recalled their fear that Nelson


Mandela might not live up to the legend they'd created for him during


his time in jail. As it turned out, their concerns were unfounded. After


his release, and in the years that followed, Nelson Mandela surpassed


their expectations. Andrew Kerr has been looking at Scotland's tribute.


He was once a strong man, a powerful man, a man who many once feared.


Nelson Mandela overcame that impression, bringing black and white


together. Glasgow promoted Nelson Mandela's cause, his memento still


stands in the city Chambers, everyone from Prime Ministers to


Princes have paid tribute. Tell us your reaction to hearing the news


about Nelson Mandela. I think, along with so many other countless members


of people, I was deeply saddened to hear of his death because he was a


truly remarkable man. Ira member meeting him on various occasions --


I remember meeting him. He was very special with a wonderful sense of


humour. That extraordinary ability for forgiveness and reconciliation.


A short distance away, a gathering in the place which defined the


apartheid era, South African authorities. Ira member how proud it


felt when the city named a street after that. The idea that the


embassy would have to encounter his name every time they opened a piece


of mail. The man has been an inspiration my whole life and


continue to be so. On a cold Glasgow night, people you're willing to pay


a worm tribute to a man from thousands of miles away who touched


many hat hair. Patricia Monahan says she was a nurse in Johannesburg when


she met the man himself in her hospital ward. I said, Mr Mandela,


would you come visit this little girl, she is dying to meet you. He


said of course. He came and talked to her and she was so delighted. He


had all the time in the world for her and then he left. It was such a


nice visit, it was so special to meet him. I will never forget his


smile. Amazing person. I was involved in the campaign to free


Nelson smile. Amazing person. I was


involved in the campaign to free Mandela and organised the first leg


of the march from Glasgow to London when I was a minister in Coatbridge.


So I have had that association for a very long time. And from the rainbow


nation, South Africans living in Scotland marks the moment. We had a


completely different view of him before 1990. But he was a great man.


I got to meet him in 1995 and he was a phenomenal man, the founding


father of our current nation. Beautiful country and he was a


wonderful person. Doctor Nelson Mandela left the perpetual scars in


our Hearts. We will remember him as a man who single-handedly changed


people to call climate of the whole world. May his soul rest in peace.


Back home, the people switched between celebrations and sadness.


They are now preparing for the funeral ceremony one week today.


Joining me this morning from Selkirk is the Liberal Democrat peer Lord


Steel, who was the President of the British Anti Apartheid movement in


the '60s. And in the studio, the Labour MP Jim Murphy, who lived in


South Africa under apartheid, and Brian Filling, who was chair of the


Scottish Anti-Apartheid Movement for nearly 20 years and is now the


Honorary Consul for Scotland for the Republic of South Africa. Thank you


for joining us. Brian Filling, a long and eventful life. How would


you sum up Nelson Mandela? And people said, he was a wonderful


person. Sense of humour. Great political cleverness. To get through


what he did and of course he suffered a lot, he made many


sacrifices but he retained his humour and his humanity, and has


been referred to in terms of his reconciliation and forgiveness. Of


course, behind the famous smile there was a man of steel. Given what


he had come through, he had to be. I remember when he came to Glasgow,


and we had a press conference, with the editors alone, and instead of


him making a speech, he said I know what is uppermost in your mind so I


will add to your questions before you have asked them. He said, you


will want to know about my wife and my political relationships. So he


answered those questions and said, can I get onto what I want to tell


you? He then of course talked about the force in South Africa that


killed 10,000 people between 1980 and 1984, so one a few people say it


was a bloodless change, that is not quite true. It was the regime trying


to derail the election process. He then became president after his


visit to Glasgow. We will talk about his success as president, but Jim


Murphy, growing up in South Africa at that time, while he was


incarcerated, the prominent was he? He was one of several figureheads at


the time. We went to South Africa when I was young and I lived there


as a teenager. Nelson Mandela was a band person. You could not talk


about him, you could not have a photograph of him, you would never


read about him in the newspapers. -- banned person. The reason that was


given as to why that country could not have democracy, it was Nelson


Mandela. You could not have a democracy because Nelson Mandela


could become president. But that became the reason why South Africa


got a democracy. It was not painless or bloodless. South Africa has been


free of recrimination. I can see Robben Island, where he spent so


much time in prison, every morning going to school as a teenager so it


was a constant in your mind. It was not a constant in conversation


because the way the state apparatus was constructed. Was an idea of the


scale of the demonstrations, the protests, in Scotland and the UK


during the 1960s and 70s. Why was it so important to people so far away?


In London, there was a vigil outside South Africa house, it lasted for


years. And in fact, the night when we heard that Nelson had died, a few


of us went around it to South Africa house and people were starting to


gather on the pavement where we had had those bejewelled and I met one


or two beagle who had been on those the ago. So it was a constant


struggle. -- one or two people who had been up on those vigils. They


were supporting the South African exiles in London at that time. All


of these people were in refuge in London and were part of the backbone


of the movement. How good his time in prison change him? -- how did his


time in prison change him? A lot of them came out of prison changed


people. It made them what they are. The man who Nelson regarded as his


mentor, all of them were remarkable human beings and I think it was


because of, partly because of the struggle but the prison experience,


already had to campaign to get newspapers, it took years to get


that, to be allowed to read and so on. So they were very, very


different people, all of them, not just Nelson. Was there a fear that,


on release from prison, Nelson Mandela main outlet up to the


expectations that had been built up around him? -- may not live up to


the expectations. No. What people think today of is his impact on


South Africa, it was so great. He set an example to the rest of the


world. We look at some of the trouble spots in the world today,


for example Israel and Palestine, is there a Nelson Mandela figure who


can help solve the problem? And is no. Or even in his own continent, in


Somali, the world is crying out for more Nelson Mandelas. The truth is,


there aren't any. What about his time as president? How did he live


up to what was expected of him? We often talk about Nelson Mandela the


freedom fighter. We often talk about him as the statesman. There was a


period of causing between when he was the first Democratic president.


That was a country where the problems facing it were so enormous.


He got youngsters into education, change the law in employment. He


started the work on a dandy HIV. One of the things he did that was a


dandy HIV. One of the things he did that was a Marco Lynn terms of


politics general -- he started the work on AIDS and HIV. Nelson


Mandela, his dilemma -- he managed to maintain reverence and respect


into old age. Your viewers will know that we don't usually grant that to


someone who has been denied opportunity to live a full life. He


had a great sense of humour. Brian, when stood out there in George


Square or I go straight or Sauchiehall Street, people would


have walked past him in campaign for decades. So people who watch him,


what is the point in signing petitions? Things like this prove


that there is a point to this sort of community campaigning. How much


did news of that reach him when he was incarcerated? After the rally in


George Square, thousands came and did not put up umbrellas although it


was raining, even bad for Glasgow, going in the car back to the hotel


with him when we went through Nelson Mandela Place, I was explaining that


South African consulate had been on the fifth floor of the stock


exchange building and that was partly why we had chosen it. We had


picketed it. And he had heard about it. And the point he made was that


the wardens were always saying, you will go out of your feet first. You


will not walk out of here. You are forgotten. And they tried to


maintain that the world had given them up, that they had been


forgotten about, but he said through the grapevine he heard often, and


the news was maybe one year after it had happened, he said it lifted our


spirits. So he said, I have always had a special place in my heart for


Glasgow because was the first city to give freedom to me. And so when


he came, he said, here I was, 6000 miles away, in a city that had made


me free, whereas in the country I was born, I was still not free. At


that point, he did not still have the boat. He had never voted. -- the


vote. How do you believe the world will remember Nelson Mandela? One of


the interesting things is, we go to Cape Town nowadays, people can take


visitors to Robben Island, and you can go into the prison cell where he


was held. The interesting thing is, the people who show you around where


his fellow prisoners, and there is huge numbers of people who go and


pilgrimage to Robben Island. I was lucky that I was one of the


observers at the first South African election in 1984 and you cannot


imagine the sheer emotion of people who had been totally suppressed


having for the first time the right to vote. -- 1994. Under Nelson


Mandela, that bitterness was removed from the country and it was a


country that moved forward in unity and harmony and peace and that was


an astonishing achievement. Thank you for joining us.


Coming up after the news, our annual A-Z extravaganza for 2013. First,


let's get the latest from Reporting Scotland.


Good afternoon. Members of the Labour Party in Falkirk will select


their candidate to fight the next general election. The original


process was abandoned after allegations of vote-rigging. The


seat is held by Eric Joyce, who resigned from Labour after being


convicted of assault. A glitch that caused hundreds of


flights to be delayed has been sorted, but there's still some


disruption for Scottish passengers. Thousands of passengers across the


UK faced cancellations and long waits after the phone system at the


National Air Traffic Service broke down.


A US-inspired scheme which provides support for teenage mothers is to be


extended. The Family Nurse Partnership aims to help first-time


parents. Frequent visits from nurses. It operates in seven areas


and will be rolled out to NHS Forth Valley and Grampian next year.


Let's have a look at the weather. A rather dull look to the afternoon


with a vibrator rain for many. The rain most persistent and heaviest


crossed western parts. Some drier interludes in southern


and eastern Scotland. Potentially after 13 Celsius across the North


East. A fresh the strong wind. The rain gradually becomes confined to


the West tonight but it will be heavy and persistent. Predominantly


dry elsewhere, it will be mild and breezy.


That's all for now. Our next update is at 6:10pm. I'll now hand you back


to Gary. So, we have seen snow this week,


Christmas is coming and this is the last of our programmes for 2013, so


it is time for our annual A-Z review of the year.


Andy Murray is the Wimbledon champion!


We did, after all, see that picture with the shocking ain't fat and the


shades, but I have exclusively revealed that Alex Salmond is on the


same day it as Beyonce. -- same diet.


I have been elected to serve in the Scottish Parliament.


People formed a human change am a side-by-side with each other, to


help pull injured people out. RU OK? Gym, there is blood on your


shirt. It is not mine. Scotland's future is now in


Scotland's hands. There is nothing new in it, there is nothing


published that they could not have told us about yesterday.


Never, never and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will


again experience the oppression of one by another. The sun shall never


set on so glorious a human achievement.


Professor Peter Higgs, University of Edinburgh. I asked, what used you


Mac she told me her daughter had phoned her from London to alert her


to the fact I had won this prize. Super Puma helicopter has crashed


into sea off Shetland. Clearly, it is anti-English. They


hate the union Jack. We will freeze gas and electricity


prices until the start of 2017. Regrettably, that will mean 835 job


losses across Filton, the Clyde and Rosyth, and the closure of the


company's shipbuilding yard in Portsmouth.


Just some of the events that shaped 2013. A special thank you goes to


Grace Kirkwood and Stuart Pauley for putting that film together. It is a


full house with us today, welcome to best selling author Chris Verbruggen


are, broadcaster and journalist Ruth Wishart, GC Derek Ogg and last but


not the -- not least, Professor Alan Miller. Let's start with Nelson


Mandela, tributes being paid this weekend to him. When you're growing


up, Watsi at personal hero? Very much so. The first political


activity it a place in at university, Gordon Brown was


candidate for student director and he organised a sitting at Edinburgh


University's Administration building to disinvest in South Africa. The


university had huge shareholdings in South African companies.


Anti-apartheid was the very first political action I ever took part


in. It had been with us for so many years, it is extraordinary to think


now that those ideas of apartheid actually existed in our own


lifetimes. People were so dreadfully persecuted in that way. As someone


who has worked in the field of human rights, how would you assess his


legacy two I think like countless millions around the world, I have


been inspired my life by Nelson Mandela. He epitomised the human


spirit. He transcended race, class, nationality. He brought out the best


in us all. He made us all bigger in ourselves by how he led his life.


The legacy is important, we all pay our tributes, but how to protect and


nurture the legacy is where we need to look now, and as we debate


Scotland's constitutional future, we can learn from South Africa. They


have protected them Agassi by enshrining in constitution and


universal human rights that Mandela gave his life towards. I think that


is secure in our country's busted usual future, no matter what the


outcome of the referendum, it is one way of measuring the legacy of


Mandela. This has dominated domestic politics for the last year, as it


been something of a phoney war up until now? I think it probably was


until the white paper came out. You could have written what was said


about the White Paper before it was published, I think the war in


earnest starts in 2014. There is a nine-month run up, and things will


probably turn a little less savoury. My personal plea, I was at a meeting


last week of people who are undecided, everyone was encourage to


be honest about their feelings, but there was not a politician insight.


But a very present evening. Have you heard enough to make up your mind?


Suddenly. I was looking at the Mandela package. When I was a


student, there was a sense of nothing changing, so it seemed


astonishing that a few years later Nelson Mandela was released. Then we


had flowed cuckoo land, as Margaret Thatcher described it. The notion


that 25 years ago that Scotland would be on the verge of this


referendum seems incredible. It seems very exciting. I think we are


privileged to have the chance to debate our future this way. This is


not me avoiding standing on one side of the fence, I did not need to be


convinced by the White Paper. What about you, Derek Ogg two have you


made a decision yet you Mac I thought it read more like a


manifesto for the SNP. The SNP are quite good governors. They are an


honest party and a heart seems to be in the right place. But I was not


getting a vision of what an independent Scotland would look like


and I am not buying a pig in a poke, so I am not voting for independence


this time round. It is not about the small print in a white paper our


manifesto from either side. For me, it is a vision and value thing about


the kind of Scotland you wish to see in the future and what swayed me was


the more mean-spirited things became, in terms of the bedroom tax,


the more mean-spirited things became as a result of the Coalition


Government policies, the more I wanted to construct something better


in Scotland. Looking at the footage of Nigel Farage there, you realise


that this was a year in which a huge amount of the British national


political agenda has been dictated by this minority figure. And it is


concerned that we tend not to fuss about in Scottish politics. So the


idea of us being in bed with the elephant has brought into sharp


focus by something like that, defer the Conservative Party have of Nigel


Farage is the reason we are seeing the go home and text and posters.


The chance of independence gives us an opportunity to not have our


political agenda dictated in the future. Ruth mentioned that people


are not decided. We know that from the opinion polls. What will it take


to persuade those people? Respect for them. My sense is that people


want to make up their own minds, and they will. He will not be told what


to do. They will not be sold anything, they want reliable


information. I think they want to know what kind of Scotland is it


that is on offer from either side, and that is the sort of discussion.


I agree with Ruth, talking to people who are undecided, it is that kind


of discussion. The bedroom tax comes up a lot and it links to what we


said about Mandela. Do we want some constitutional framework, whether it


is devolved or independent, where these fundamental rights to live


your life with your family with an adequate standard of living should


not be subject to this short-term political pressure and a two-day


policies of this party or that Government. It is something much


more serious than I think we have been given so far in the debate. I


talk about the Catholic Church. Cardinal Keith O'Brien stand the


gonad allegations of abuse. This is not exclusive to this year but I


wonder whether the reason we keep, the story keeps coming back, is


because the Catholic Church does not get to the root of the problem. I


thought when the story broke, if I had written this, a story of a very


vocal anti-homosexual religious figure who turned out to be a secret


self folding homosexual, I would say -- people would say, you have to be


more subtle. It is beyond satire. But it is the root of the problem,


the Catholic Church is essentially in an ongoing war with human nature


when it comes to issues of sexuality. Until those lessons are


learned and addressed, this story will keep happening. Is it fair to


say that often the victims are the forgotten ones when we talk about


some of these abuse cases? Some of the victims this year have felt as


though they did not have the support they would want. That is right,


certainly in the case with Cardinal Keith O'Brien. For me, the real


underlying scandal concerns the child abuse and the fact that not


just in Scotland, are not just in England or America or elsewhere,


people have not investigated that. People who have known about it have


chosen just to ask the offending priest around different parishes in


the full knowledge that someone else might become that victim. Until the


church claims that up, I think we will always be suspicious but having


said that, it is the year we got Pope Francis, who is by far the most


compassionate sounding Pope we have seen in a long time. He seems to be


softening the Church's view on homosexuality yet we have a Catholic


Church in Scotland is against the idea of same-sex marriage. There


seems to be a contradiction there. I will not hold my breath waiting for


the Catholic Church to support me and my partner in everyday


relationship. We need to separate two things, adult gay relationships,


and the Catholic Church's attitude to it, and the abuse of children,


which is not just the Catholic Church but other institutions that


looked after children, or are supposed to, get involved in. One


thing Nelson Mandela's legacy is, one way to approach conflict like


that and victimhood like that is reconciliation and truth. The


Catholic Church has a lot of truth it has to confront and a lot of


reconciling to do and that is the way to clear those particular


stables out. The same-sex marriage thing, it goes to show, one thing


about this year is, we can look and see how much change happens in our


lifetime, looking at Thatcher and Mandela having died, but 30 odd


years ago I lived in a country where it was illegal for anyone of any age


to have homosexual sex in any circumstances. Now we are cocking


about same-sex marriage, civil partnership. -- now we are talking


about. You only have to look to Russia to see what happens if you


are not vigilant about rights. That is why Alan has got his work cut out


for him. There has been a lot of negativity about historic child


abuse this year. A piece of work has been taking place in Scotland which


I think next year will yield significant progress and access to


justice for victims of historic abuse. It borrows a lot from the


Mandela legacy because the commission has brought around the


table, for the first time in Scotland, the victims. Sitting next


to none is and other representatives. -- sitting next to


nuns that are supposed to have perpetrated abuse. This is what


Mandela stood for, it has been quite transformative in understanding the


situation of each, what they require, how they can move on in


life and agree on what steps have to be taken. I am hoping that in 2014,


those steps, which have been identified in this round table


throughout 2013, will finally see some justice for the victims of


historic child abuse. Let's talk about Andy Murray. I am sure you're


jumping up and down with joy. He first came across my radar when he


won the junior US Open and since then I have watched every match. I


played every shot with him. It is such a life enhancing thing. I am a


big sports fan, I spent a lot of time at Hampden and Murrayfield, and


that is a particular form of masochism. But then you get Andy


Murray, who is just brilliant. I love his sense of humour. I love the


way he plays. I love that very Scottish sense of humour that a lot


of folk do not understand. He is a complete star and I hope he wins in


other couple next year. It has taken a lot of people a long time to


understand and the's sense of humour. It has not taken Scottish


people a long time. I did not get to see the final because I was in Italy


and I was going through all the channel trying to find it, and I was


not able to find it. It occurred to me, I said to my wife, can you name


an Italian tennis player? I was following it by BBC text updates. He


gets to the final stages and it disappeared from the telephone. That


is when I realised it was no longer ongoing, it was over. That is all we


have got time for. No time to talk about the pandas, but maybe next


year. That is all from us from this week and this one. We are back again


in the New Year. If you are missing your political fix, you can watch


The Politics Show on Wednesday.


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.

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