26/01/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


26/01/2014

Andrew Neil and Gary Robertson with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including an interview with transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal conservative in one speech.

:00:40.:00:43.

He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back

:00:44.:00:47.

the 50p top tax rate. Political master-stroke? Or a return to Old

:00:48.:00:53.

Labour? If you go to work by public

:00:54.:00:56.

transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up. Again.

:00:57.:00:59.

We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, he's our Sunday

:01:00.:01:02.

interview. And it's been another wet week

:01:03.:01:06.

across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to Nigel

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Farage? And on Sunday Politics Scotland:

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How will 16 and 17-year olds vote in the referendum?

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One Labour MP predicts that they'll turn away from nationalism. We'll

:01:20.:01:20.

speak to Douglas Alexander live. And with me - as always - the

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political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular

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they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate

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to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and

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they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami

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Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour

:02:12.:02:15.

would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.

:02:16.:02:19.

But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,

:02:20.:02:22.

Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a

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return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is

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anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this

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morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open

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up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely

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with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances

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and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last

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few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the

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next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the

:02:46.:02:55.

deficit down, of course they do. But to cut the top rate... It is foolish

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and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,

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pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get

:03:06.:03:09.

this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy

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this deficit down in a fairway and work for the long term. What are the

:03:13.:03:18.

political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352%

:03:19.:03:25.

top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think

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exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out

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there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not

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sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their

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existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we

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talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think

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it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this

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year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I

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thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right

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policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35%

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strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that

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direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have

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done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the

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sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was

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about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and

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Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things

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that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly

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three main parties have roughly the three main parties have roughly the

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same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next

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Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said

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how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going

:05:11.:05:15.

to restore this 50 persons rate. The contribution of that will be

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deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.

:05:20.:05:24.

Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where

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the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the

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last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election

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if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and

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that's the question looking difficult for them this morning.

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Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the

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most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy

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mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a

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Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious

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than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the

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run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in

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the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a

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guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of

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ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business.

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Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see

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businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on

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that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing

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this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The

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other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p

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is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what

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politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour

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regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay.

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It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one

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of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent

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memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in

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Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of

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inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a

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Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A

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challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the

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Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the

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Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our

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behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the

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apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show

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leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on

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Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of

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a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had

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inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was

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cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more. I said if he doesn't apologise, he

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should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what

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do you do then? I hope he doesn't. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was

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starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to

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apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't

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done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends

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better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has

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been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems

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to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very

:08:55.:09:01.

differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on

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qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed

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to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the

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problem that exposed the weaknesses of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's

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internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for

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a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal

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Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of

:09:32.:09:36.

the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem

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whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed,

:09:42.:09:48.

they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar

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Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media

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witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough

:09:56.:10:00.

shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't

:10:01.:10:04.

turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement

:10:05.:10:09.

that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to

:10:10.:10:13.

comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative

:10:14.:10:16.

but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick

:10:17.:10:21.

Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the

:10:22.:10:25.

extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man

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long credited with building its success. The situation was making

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the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this

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morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to

:10:37.:10:40.

create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at

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ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious,

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when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from

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the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome

:10:54.:10:57.

sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the

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Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago

:11:03.:11:07.

and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader.

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Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week,

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for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous

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week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will

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vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now.

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The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem

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voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point

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in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the

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post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon

:11:45.:11:52.

Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they

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might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their

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pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm

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Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a

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"family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was

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booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with

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Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was

:12:16.:12:21.

off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite,

:12:22.:12:24.

told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves

:12:25.:12:28.

in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How

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refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib

:12:41.:12:44.

Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've

:12:45.:12:47.

been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that

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their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he

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signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various

:12:57.:13:03.

sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is

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Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week

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he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public

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domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative

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Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority

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Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that

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reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are

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self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like

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this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have

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got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through

:13:53.:13:57.

mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his

:13:58.:14:02.

entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the

:14:03.:14:05.

Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for

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mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly

:14:10.:14:13.

invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a

:14:14.:14:17.

action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could

:14:18.:14:21.

resolve that. Except he is threatening through his friends,

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these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex

:14:26.:14:30.

secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through

:14:31.:14:33.

to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European

:14:34.:14:37.

elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps

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it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for

:14:42.:14:46.

Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better

:14:47.:14:50.

than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a

:14:51.:14:53.

good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems

:14:54.:14:57.

have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure.

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Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational

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structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert

:15:08.:15:10.

himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or

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Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today

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programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as

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Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your

:15:34.:15:36.

pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been

:15:37.:15:40.

racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel

:15:41.:15:43.

by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over

:15:44.:15:46.

the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going

:15:47.:15:50.

up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over

:15:51.:15:56.

the same period. It means some rail users are paying high prices with

:15:57.:16:02.

commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the

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beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't

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compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average

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rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just

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1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the

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beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers

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fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the

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track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

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Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why

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is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of

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their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while

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their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out

:17:10.:17:15.

that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above

:17:16.:17:21.

inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do

:17:22.:17:25.

as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase

:17:26.:17:34.

since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been

:17:35.:17:41.

above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the

:17:42.:17:45.

railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the

:17:46.:17:51.

great Western. We are spending ?500 million at Birmingham station, this

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is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the

:17:58.:18:01.

next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the

:18:02.:18:11.

network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary

:18:12.:18:16.

people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey,

:18:17.:18:21.

commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a

:18:22.:18:28.

distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked

:18:29.:18:37.

similar distances to international cities.

:18:38.:18:45.

The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing

:18:46.:18:54.

record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be

:18:55.:18:59.

paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know

:19:00.:19:02.

whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise,

:19:03.:19:20.

as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian

:19:21.:19:29.

equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our

:19:30.:19:33.

railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying

:19:34.:19:38.

these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot

:19:39.:19:43.

more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not

:19:44.:19:52.

quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you

:19:53.:19:58.

were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you

:19:59.:20:04.

the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case

:20:05.:20:10.

they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise

:20:11.:20:14.

cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin

:20:15.:20:22.

train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen

:20:23.:20:26.

a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned.

:20:27.:20:31.

a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger

:20:32.:20:36.

journeys going from 750 million to 1.5 billion. That is a massive

:20:37.:20:40.

revolution in rail. Let me look 1.5 billion. That is a massive

:20:41.:20:45.

spokesperson for the German government, the Ministry of

:20:46.:20:45.

transport. They are charging huge fares in

:20:46.:21:03.

Britain to take that money back to subsidise fares in Germany. What do

:21:04.:21:08.

you say to that? We are seeing British companies winning contracts

:21:09.:21:12.

in Germany. The National Express are winning contracts to the railways.

:21:13.:21:18.

What about the ordinary commuter? They are paying through the nose so

:21:19.:21:23.

German commuters can travel more cheaply. We are still subsidising

:21:24.:21:28.

the railways in this country, but overall we want to reduce the

:21:29.:21:32.

subsidy we are giving. We are still seeing growth in our railways and I

:21:33.:21:40.

want to see more people using them. Why do you increase rail fares at

:21:41.:21:48.

the higher RPI measure than the lower CPI measurement? That is what

:21:49.:21:53.

has always been done, and we have stopped. This is the first time in

:21:54.:21:57.

ten years that we have not raised the rail figures above RPI. You

:21:58.:22:07.

still link fares to RPI. You use the lower CPI figure when it suits you,

:22:08.:22:13.

to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it

:22:14.:22:17.

comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy

:22:18.:22:22.

into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going

:22:23.:22:27.

from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you

:22:28.:22:32.

about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI

:22:33.:22:40.

vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all

:22:41.:22:47.

the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main

:22:48.:22:51.

Line and the great Western, ?3.5 billion of investment, new rolling

:22:52.:22:56.

stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a

:22:57.:22:59.

question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.

:23:00.:23:14.

You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we

:23:15.:23:17.

have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are

:23:18.:23:27.

the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?

:23:28.:23:34.

We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are

:23:35.:23:48.

setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them

:23:49.:23:52.

and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for

:23:53.:23:57.

the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don't

:23:58.:24:04.

accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is

:24:05.:24:10.

the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus

:24:11.:24:18.

rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,

:24:19.:24:25.

4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has

:24:26.:24:31.

been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses

:24:32.:24:36.

on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with

:24:37.:24:41.

Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in

:24:42.:24:55.

new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working

:24:56.:25:01.

families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work

:25:02.:25:07.

early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their

:25:08.:25:11.

buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if

:25:12.:25:18.

they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in

:25:19.:25:23.

services, it has to be paid for. Why not run the old buses for five more

:25:24.:25:31.

years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern

:25:32.:25:35.

buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support

:25:36.:25:40.

overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully

:25:41.:25:43.

accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of

:25:44.:25:47.

people use buses as well. High-speed yes, use the train but a lot of

:25:48.:25:56.

two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your

:25:57.:26:01.

department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission

:26:02.:26:07.

to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now

:26:08.:26:12.

widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for

:26:13.:26:18.

purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it

:26:19.:26:24.

is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have

:26:25.:26:30.

extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to

:26:31.:26:40.

make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a

:26:41.:26:44.

different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.

:26:45.:26:58.

What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by

:26:59.:27:03.

Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and

:27:04.:27:08.

I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the

:27:09.:27:12.

end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the

:27:13.:27:17.

House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will

:27:18.:27:23.

get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the

:27:24.:27:29.

exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress

:27:30.:27:37.

through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have

:27:38.:27:44.

concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the

:27:45.:27:48.

line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure

:27:49.:27:58.

is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as

:27:59.:28:05.

chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are

:28:06.:28:08.

ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London

:28:09.:28:14.

we are building Crossrail, ?14.5 billion investment. There was a

:28:15.:28:19.

report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.

:28:20.:28:27.

Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in

:28:28.:28:36.

the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay

:28:37.:28:41.

people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on

:28:42.:28:47.

?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are

:28:48.:28:55.

very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we

:28:56.:28:59.

are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.

:29:00.:29:04.

It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather

:29:05.:29:08.

pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big

:29:09.:29:13.

rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national

:29:14.:29:18.

infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty

:29:19.:29:24.

so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and

:29:25.:29:28.

all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the

:29:29.:29:32.

Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what

:29:33.:29:36.

our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take

:29:37.:29:43.

them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many

:29:44.:29:52.

conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the

:29:53.:30:01.

immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and

:30:02.:30:07.

Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of

:30:08.:30:11.

migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been

:30:12.:30:16.

more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz

:30:17.:30:21.

greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days

:30:22.:30:26.

and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new

:30:27.:30:29.

Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from

:30:30.:30:35.

backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel

:30:36.:30:40.

Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians

:30:41.:30:52.

can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the

:30:53.:30:55.

amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there

:30:56.:31:03.

hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to

:31:04.:31:08.

restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to

:31:09.:31:13.

2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st,

:31:14.:31:16.

Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350,000

:31:17.:31:21.

people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,

:31:22.:31:27.

especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in

:31:28.:31:32.

excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The

:31:33.:31:36.

real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,

:31:37.:31:42.

attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our

:31:43.:31:46.

people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to

:31:47.:31:52.

accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding

:31:53.:31:56.

principle of the European Union? We were trying to keep the restrictions

:31:57.:32:00.

that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU

:32:01.:32:04.

membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't

:32:05.:32:09.

aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still

:32:10.:32:13.

recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK

:32:14.:32:18.

Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible

:32:19.:32:23.

recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is

:32:24.:32:27.

worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their

:32:28.:32:35.

accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a

:32:36.:32:38.

law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?

:32:39.:32:43.

Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in

:32:44.:32:50.

work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane

:32:51.:32:55.

Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach

:32:56.:33:00.

of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs

:33:01.:33:04.

have been particularly mindless, because what they want to do

:33:05.:33:08.

wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say

:33:09.:33:14.

so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be

:33:15.:33:21.

going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.

:33:22.:33:25.

They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed

:33:26.:33:29.

to be debating before Christmas. As we speak they've not cut a deal, so

:33:30.:33:35.

it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I

:33:36.:33:41.

think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount

:33:42.:33:45.

of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to

:33:46.:33:50.

achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get

:33:51.:33:53.

free movement. I think the debate is moving in the

:33:54.:34:05.

People are worried now about the level of immigration over the years,

:34:06.:34:12.

they think it has got too high. That is the consensus in the country.

:34:13.:34:18.

Someone in your constituency says that struggling to cope with numbers

:34:19.:34:24.

of people wanting to is their services. The truth is that in the

:34:25.:34:30.

past years, EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation and they

:34:31.:34:34.

take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement in the EU, that

:34:35.:34:42.

horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing that people

:34:43.:34:47.

can do unless they want to rip their party apart. Will you go so far as

:34:48.:34:53.

to your party apart? Will you take this all the way? Would you rather

:34:54.:35:01.

see this bill go down? I think this is an important bill. There are a

:35:02.:35:04.

lots of measures in there that we want on the statute book. The last

:35:05.:35:10.

thing I want to see is the building down. But we do need to set out

:35:11.:35:15.

clearly that we have concerns about EU migration and something needs to

:35:16.:35:25.

be done. Would you rather have without your amendment on the bill

:35:26.:35:31.

at all? I hope we can have it with the amendments. I think it will

:35:32.:35:35.

depend on what the Labour Party decided to do. They need to talk

:35:36.:35:40.

tough on immigration and we will see whether they will take any action.

:35:41.:35:45.

Your party has been talking tough on immigration, but I would be

:35:46.:35:48.

surprised if I'm Ed Miliband Labour Party would vote for anything in

:35:49.:35:56.

concert of the Treaty of Rome. He is wishing for the impossible. I was a

:35:57.:36:01.

Tory whip I would be running my hands. He has not ruled out crashing

:36:02.:36:06.

the bill, that is incredible. Where will this end? It will end with a

:36:07.:36:13.

vote on Thursday. There are different amendments now, I think

:36:14.:36:20.

what we should be doing is taking some limited and proportionate

:36:21.:36:23.

action which is what I have been proposing. I want this bill on the

:36:24.:36:31.

statute book. We need to sort out the rights to a... I don't want to

:36:32.:36:38.

crash the bill. There are more measures that are needed. Thank you

:36:39.:36:39.

for that. Good morning and welcome to Sunday

:36:40.:36:47.

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: Children of the digital

:36:48.:36:50.

age. What is influencing our young voters

:36:51.:36:53.

in the run up to the referendum? Douglas Alexander joins us live to

:36:54.:36:56.

argue why he thinks first time voters will reject nationalism.

:36:57.:37:01.

And we'll be speaking live to the newly-elected MSP for Cowdenbeath

:37:02.:37:03.

and asking what are his priorities for the area?

:37:04.:37:08.

The Labour MP and Shadow foreign secretary will make a speech to a

:37:09.:37:13.

Better Together rally later today claiming the premise that 16 and

:37:14.:37:16.

17-year-olds are more likely to vote Yes in the referendum is mistaken.

:37:17.:37:19.

Douglas Alexander will tell his audience that today's generation of

:37:20.:37:22.

young people are a "network" generation, connected to the world

:37:23.:37:24.

through technology, and not a nationalist one. In a moment we'll

:37:25.:37:29.

be speaking to Douglas Alexander, but first let's hear some views on

:37:30.:37:32.

the subject, including two first-time voters.

:37:33.:37:39.

In the beginning, the idea of allowing younger people to vote was

:37:40.:37:43.

controversial. Some questioned whether they were responsible enough

:37:44.:37:47.

to make decisions about Scotland's future. What are they going to do

:37:48.:37:52.

with the power? We only have one serious attempt to get at the

:37:53.:37:56.

preferences with respect to the referendum of those who will be 16

:37:57.:38:03.

or 17 come September. Actually, the survey suggested that this age group

:38:04.:38:10.

at least was something between six and ten points less likely been in

:38:11.:38:14.

favour of independence than the adult population. Young people are

:38:15.:38:21.

wanting to hear more about how independents will actually directly

:38:22.:38:26.

affect them. Will it increase their job opportunities? Will it increase

:38:27.:38:30.

their hope? There is a lot of hopelessness and alienation. They

:38:31.:38:37.

want to see whether there will be change in Scotland to independents.

:38:38.:38:43.

We asked to vote is to be what issues will influence their views?

:38:44.:38:49.

Money is the big matter. Without money, we cannot fund public

:38:50.:38:53.

services like the NHS, free tuition access for. We don't have enough

:38:54.:39:03.

money to fund the Scottish students, they will have to pay for

:39:04.:39:07.

their own tuition fees. For me it is about equality and I feel the only

:39:08.:39:12.

way we can get an equal and fair Scotland is through independence. I

:39:13.:39:16.

feel the people of Scotland should run Scotland and if that means we

:39:17.:39:20.

are less wealthy, though I don't believe that would be the case, I

:39:21.:39:25.

think that is a risk to take. They seem relaxed about the idea of

:39:26.:39:30.

national identity. I don't really think that we need to define

:39:31.:39:35.

ourselves as being members of just one country. Right now, every

:39:36.:39:43.

country is multicultural. You can find people from all over the world

:39:44.:39:48.

in any nation. Even if you say, I am Scottish, if you go far back and

:39:49.:39:53.

asked, we all just migrants For me, it is about being national pride. I

:39:54.:40:00.

understand people that say it is not all about identity any don't have to

:40:01.:40:04.

label yourself, you can just be sure you are. In a make up a small part

:40:05.:40:11.

of the electorate, but it will be the youngest voters who lived

:40:12.:40:15.

longest with the results. Joining me now is the man who'll be

:40:16.:40:19.

making that speech this afternoon - Labour MP Douglas Alexander. You are

:40:20.:40:22.

saying that the decision to give them the vote is backfiring on the

:40:23.:40:29.

SNP. What a basing that on? The largest and most comp rancid survey

:40:30.:40:34.

taken under Edinburgh University, many opinion polls indicate a couple

:40:35.:40:43.

of things. First of all, young Scots are comfortable in their Scottish

:40:44.:40:47.

identity. They are secure and proud of our sense of Scottish list. Those

:40:48.:40:53.

of us who grew up in the 1980s felt that our identity was under threat.

:40:54.:41:00.

I have learned from talking to young Scots how comfortable and confident

:41:01.:41:08.

they are in their identity. This is a generation that has -- that is

:41:09.:41:17.

comfortable with a layered identity. Independence does not change that.

:41:18.:41:22.

It does undermine the argument that the youngest group of voters are

:41:23.:41:27.

uniquely and distinctively Scottish. We are all passionately and proudly

:41:28.:41:31.

Scottish, but they like many of us are pragmatic in terms of seeing in

:41:32.:41:36.

the modern world where we are interconnected in a way unimaginable

:41:37.:41:40.

a generation ago, we do not have to choose between being Scottish or

:41:41.:41:44.

Scottish and British or even European. It was clear from when

:41:45.:41:50.

this was announced that the votes of the 16 and 17-year-olds was not

:41:51.:41:58.

going to be decisive. I supported for the AV referendum 16-year-olds

:41:59.:42:04.

having the vote. I think it is right that they have their say in the

:42:05.:42:09.

referendum. Has the premise of the article being overtaken by today's

:42:10.:42:16.

poll in Scotland On Sunday? It has the largest swing we have seen

:42:17.:42:24.

towards yes. This poll suggests a jump of 26% from 18 to 44%. If you

:42:25.:42:35.

read what Professor Curtis said, he said this was a very small sample of

:42:36.:42:47.

16 to 25-year-old. I am not complacent. That suggests to me that

:42:48.:42:53.

all of us have more work to do in the remaining days. There is no

:42:54.:42:56.

ground for complacency. The stakes are very high. You cannot change

:42:57.:43:02.

your mind after a few years. A decision to break up the country

:43:03.:43:07.

will be for ever. You see in your article that young people fear an

:43:08.:43:11.

independent Scotland would be a narrowing, not broadening

:43:12.:43:17.

experience. We are in a distinctive position. We are part of a

:43:18.:43:22.

multicultural multinational, multiethnic country. I am asking you

:43:23.:43:26.

to back-up the claim that there would be a narrowing experience.

:43:27.:43:32.

Which country has that been a for? Overwhelmingly, young people made

:43:33.:43:36.

clear that they wanted to be part of something bigger, as well as feeling

:43:37.:43:41.

pride of what they are part of here in Scotland. For me, there is no

:43:42.:43:46.

choice between being comfortable in that. You can support different

:43:47.:43:51.

football teams, that is the young generation, they feel they can have

:43:52.:43:56.

it all. You quote a survey, that survey and others shows a desire

:43:57.:44:00.

amongst the public for more powers if there is a no vote. Which powers

:44:01.:44:06.

would you like to see devolved? We have a commission looking at this.

:44:07.:44:10.

With the proposals coming through, there will be a shift of powers to

:44:11.:44:15.

Edinburgh. I have said for many months but I hope the commission

:44:16.:44:20.

will come up with proposals for the Scottish Labour Party at the Perth

:44:21.:44:26.

conference for enhanced devolution. Devo Max is more discussed than

:44:27.:44:33.

defined by many people, we need to look at the practical changes that

:44:34.:44:37.

will make a practical difference to people's lives. Potentially welfare,

:44:38.:44:41.

it is only a matter of weeks until the recommendations are brought

:44:42.:44:46.

forward. Whether it is taxation or welfare or some of the proposals

:44:47.:44:52.

that Gordon Brown spoke about in Cowdenbeath I think all of those

:44:53.:44:56.

should be on the table. The SNP are highlighting comments made by Jim

:44:57.:45:02.

Gallagher, they say that he said the idea of Scotland winning some vision

:45:03.:45:07.

of Devo Max is fantastical. His argument at the time being that

:45:08.:45:11.

Westminster would not go for it. You can promise, Labour in Scotland can

:45:12.:45:16.

promise what they want, but can make guaranteed that Westminster will

:45:17.:45:20.

back it? Will be less than nine months left for this Government on

:45:21.:45:32.

December 18 -- September 18. In terms of delivering the package, I

:45:33.:45:35.

do believe that there are grounds for optimism in terms of what we can

:45:36.:45:40.

see and deliver. But there are no guarantees, are there? What we're

:45:41.:45:47.

talking about is the central paradox of Scottish politics is that

:45:48.:45:50.

Scotland wants change. I am desperate to see change from the

:45:51.:45:55.

conservative coalition Government. But the majority of Scots don't want

:45:56.:45:59.

the destructive change that the Nationalists are offering. Our

:46:00.:46:02.

responsibility is to offer the desirable change that Scottish

:46:03.:46:05.

voters want. I believe that involves enhanced devolution and also social

:46:06.:46:12.

and economic change. We have an obligation to set out the kind of

:46:13.:46:16.

practical changes like Ed Miliband talked about that would make a real

:46:17.:46:20.

difference to the lives and opportunities of Scots. But an

:46:21.:46:24.

honest politician would also tell the public that they may not be able

:46:25.:46:28.

to deliver this. It is up to the Scottish people to make their

:46:29.:46:33.

decision. I hope and believe we will reject the independence. Then we

:46:34.:46:38.

have a chance... Opinion polls have shown for more than two years that

:46:39.:46:41.

the prospect of change at Westminster is real. The

:46:42.:46:47.

Nationalists are trying to equate antipathy to the Conservatives as a

:46:48.:46:50.

requirement to vote for yes in the referendum. The truth is I think the

:46:51.:46:55.

Scottish people are wiser than that. We can differentiate between the

:46:56.:46:59.

deep anger many others feel hold towards the conservative Government

:47:00.:47:03.

that have less than nine months left to run and it permits tries to break

:47:04.:47:07.

up the country. I think that is why the majority of Scots are opposing

:47:08.:47:11.

independence, but I think they are very clear that he wants change and

:47:12.:47:15.

that involves constitutional change and it falls to Scottish Labour to

:47:16.:47:19.

assume that mantle of responsibility. On the change that

:47:20.:47:23.

Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are proposing, this talk of returning to

:47:24.:47:29.

the 50p tax rate, is that a political or economic decision? I

:47:30.:47:34.

think it is a very sensible decision. While we are dealing with

:47:35.:47:38.

the deficit, and it was framed in the context of dealing with the

:47:39.:47:43.

deficit, it would be right, let me finish, it is right for those with

:47:44.:47:48.

the broadest shoulders to bear a heavy responsibility. So it is

:47:49.:47:54.

political? it is part of a strategy to deal with the deficit and

:47:55.:47:57.

continued to deliver a fairer society in these tough times. The

:47:58.:48:02.

estimates as to how much it will yield go between ?100 million and ?1

:48:03.:48:07.

billion. But most people watching that people earning over ?50,000,

:48:08.:48:15.

will think that is OK. Thank you for coming in to speak to us. Well,

:48:16.:48:22.

listening to that interview was SNP MSP Marco Biagi who joins us from

:48:23.:48:28.

our Edinburgh studio. Do you accept that with younger

:48:29.:48:36.

voters the Yes campaign has a mountain to climb? Young people have

:48:37.:48:46.

heard the arguments. In every case they swing strongly towards the Yes

:48:47.:48:59.

campaign. 11,000 school pupils in Aberdeenshire, rejected your

:49:00.:49:04.

proposition. These surveys over the last year have not shown that the

:49:05.:49:11.

entire population has been one round. The survey this morning shows

:49:12.:49:18.

the kind of progress that the Yes campaign has made. Young people are

:49:19.:49:27.

no different to anybody else. Do you accept the point being made by

:49:28.:49:30.

Douglas Alexander in terms of the sample size of this survey? It is

:49:31.:49:39.

not a one off. It is a small sample. There has been a consistent trend in

:49:40.:49:48.

these debates. Young people want to talk about what Scotland can

:49:49.:49:57.

achieve. Young people see the No campaign as similar to a teacher

:49:58.:50:07.

that tells you what you cannot do. They young person that we spoke to

:50:08.:50:12.

who is going to vote against independence says he wants answers

:50:13.:50:15.

in terms of the finance of independence. More flesh on the bone

:50:16.:50:24.

is needed. Young people hear both sides. They hear the financial

:50:25.:50:34.

argument. Scotland receives 9.3% of the spending that contributes 9.9%

:50:35.:50:43.

of the funding. The question of identity seems to be at the

:50:44.:50:49.

forefront of the No campaign. The only people making this an issue of

:50:50.:50:56.

identity is the No campaign. What is the position of the SNP if there is

:50:57.:51:07.

a No vote? Does the SNP become a campaign group for increased

:51:08.:51:16.

devolution? You continue to believe what you believe. I will still hold

:51:17.:51:26.

true to my principles. But you keep telling us that surveys suggest that

:51:27.:51:33.

people want more powers for the Scottish Parliament. We are putting

:51:34.:51:48.

independence to the people. You have rejected the Constitutional

:51:49.:51:52.

Convention. You are saying that if there is a No vote you will not

:51:53.:51:55.

campaign for more powers for the Scottish Parliament. The other

:51:56.:52:05.

parties are engaged in a confidence trick. The only way we will have a

:52:06.:52:14.

concrete proposal is if there is I guess vote for independence. -- if

:52:15.:52:21.

there is a Yes vote for independence. Labour is talking

:52:22.:52:29.

about 50p tax rate if they are returned to power in 2015. In an

:52:30.:52:35.

independent Scotland should those with the broadest shoulders pay

:52:36.:52:40.

more? The UK is the fourth most equal -- the UK is the fourth most

:52:41.:52:52.

unequal country in the OECD. There will be an SNP Government for at

:52:53.:52:58.

least two mackerel years until Independence Day. Do you support the

:52:59.:53:06.

50p tax rate? That was introduced by the Labour Party more as a trap for

:53:07.:53:11.

the Tories. It was only in effect for nine months. It came at the same

:53:12.:53:20.

time as a VAT hike that hit ordinary working people up and down the

:53:21.:53:25.

country. Fight you for joining us. -- thank

:53:26.:53:32.

you for joining us. "We need more information" - that's

:53:33.:53:35.

a familiar refrain in this referendum campaign. In Glasgow this

:53:36.:53:38.

weekend, women from across the country searched for answers. At the

:53:39.:53:41.

Scottish Women's Convention event, the deputy First Minister said,

:53:42.:53:43.

under independence, she would argue for at least 40 per cent of places

:53:44.:53:47.

on boards to be occupied by women. Labour, under the "Better Together"

:53:48.:53:51.

banner, said staying in the UK meant more would be done to make pay

:53:52.:53:55.

equal. Laura Maxwell has more. Hands up for the truth legend Mark

:53:56.:54:00.

how will my country, society and family benefit? The economy, free

:54:01.:54:11.

education, childcare. This debate is taking place away from what is

:54:12.:54:16.

described as the usual meal power struggles. -- the usual Machell

:54:17.:54:29.

power struggles. What we know is their respective of

:54:30.:54:36.

whether it is I guess vote or a No vote the political landscape will be

:54:37.:54:46.

altered for ever. With the two opposing sides present how did they

:54:47.:54:57.

lay out their vision? Women are rightly asking hard questions.

:54:58.:55:02.

Audiences of women are always tough audiences. I believe that if we can

:55:03.:55:08.

persuade a majority of women that independence is the right thing for

:55:09.:55:12.

Scotland then we will win the referendum. I am confident of doing

:55:13.:55:18.

that. Many women across Scotland now from being in control of household

:55:19.:55:22.

budgets how important it is to make your own decisions rather than

:55:23.:55:25.

allowing decisions to be taken elsewhere. That is the key message.

:55:26.:55:31.

We have got big questions to ask ourselves. We need to ask about the

:55:32.:55:38.

protection of our pensions. Also, Labour would make strong

:55:39.:55:42.

commitments. We need to step up the pace on low pay. We would introduce

:55:43.:55:53.

contracts to incentivise. We would protect pregnant women at work.

:55:54.:56:05.

In an independent Scotland we can create a new culture. We can create

:56:06.:56:10.

a better environment. We can create somewhere that is more optimistic. I

:56:11.:56:19.

am still undecided. Today the Yes campaign is quite strong. But there

:56:20.:56:24.

are a lot of questions that have not been answered. I might still be

:56:25.:56:31.

undecided until September. I believe that we are Better Together. The

:56:32.:56:36.

four nations work very well together at the moment. The issues are not

:56:37.:56:44.

solely for women to debate. The point of the conference was not to

:56:45.:56:47.

change minds, just revived the space for the debate to take place.

:56:48.:56:52.

You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland and the time is coming up

:56:53.:56:55.

for Midday. So let's cross now for the news.

:56:56.:57:09.

Environmental campaigners have published league tables which they

:57:10.:57:11.

say identify Scotland's most polluted streets.

:57:12.:57:14.

Friends of the Earth Scotland have warned their research shows air

:57:15.:57:17.

pollution from vehicles is a major threat to health, even in some

:57:18.:57:20.

smaller towns and villages. The Scottish Government says pollution

:57:21.:57:22.

is falling, but the pressure group is calling for urgent action.

:57:23.:57:33.

Missing health targets in Perth, even in small villagers in some

:57:34.:57:39.

parts of West Lothian. It is surprising where you can find an air

:57:40.:57:47.

pollution Rob Wharne. -- and air pollution problem.

:57:48.:57:55.

Our republican march has taken place. -- a republican march. The

:57:56.:58:03.

organisers had hoped to march through the West End, but the

:58:04.:58:16.

council refused that. A rare medieval gravestone is

:58:17.:58:19.

leaving its home in Glasgow for the first time in its 1000 year history.

:58:20.:58:25.

The "hogback" is being moved to London to form part of an exhibition

:58:26.:58:28.

on Vikings at the British Museum. The ornately carved half-tonne stone

:58:29.:58:31.

is one of five, on permanent display in Govan Old Parish Church.

:58:32.:58:37.

is one This afternoon there will be

:58:38.:58:40.

blustery showers. There will be some sunny spells. It will feel quite

:58:41.:58:54.

cold. Met office warnings are in force around the coast. More rain in

:58:55.:58:59.

the North West. Wintry everywhere else.

:59:00.:59:07.

There was no surprises at Cowdenbeath last week. The Labour

:59:08.:59:10.

party cruised to victory and increased their majority. The win

:59:11.:59:13.

was very much predicted, but perhaps not the extent. The SNP, after

:59:14.:59:17.

almost seven years in Government, didn't expect much, but fought back

:59:18.:59:20.

with a doorstep poll which showed 41 per cent support for independence.

:59:21.:59:24.

In a moment we'll speak to the winner, but first Andrew Kerr was

:59:25.:59:27.

there on the night. Here's his report.

:59:28.:59:35.

I declare Alex Rowley to be elected to serve in the Cowdenbeath

:59:36.:59:39.

constituency. All his life and labour man and now an elected party

:59:40.:59:45.

representative. Alex Rowley knew he was bound to win, but made it clear

:59:46.:59:50.

he did not take the people of the Cowdenbeath constituency for

:59:51.:59:58.

granted. Unemployment, youth unemployment, the threat to jobs,

:59:59.:00:01.

these are big concerns. Good news for the leadership. They believe

:00:02.:00:06.

Scots are falling back in love with Labour. The turnout was very cool at

:00:07.:00:13.

35%. Labour was heartened by the swing of 11% to them. It is

:00:14.:00:20.

important to treat people with respect and not take them for

:00:21.:00:23.

granted. But there is no doubt that the scale of the victory is very

:00:24.:00:28.

significant. For the SNP it was always a difficult one. Cowdenbeath

:00:29.:00:33.

did not fall into their hands in 2011 and it was not likely to do so

:00:34.:00:40.

on Thursday night. They consoled themselves and tried to project a

:00:41.:00:48.

positivity. Their own doorstep Paul suggested 41% would vote in favour

:00:49.:00:52.

of independence at the referendum. # or their own doorstep survey

:00:53.:00:58.

suggested. There are a lot of traditional Labour borders who have

:00:59.:01:09.

said that they are thinking about voting yes in the referendum. Alex

:01:10.:01:15.

Rowley might be the victor tonight, but I believe all of Scotland will

:01:16.:01:21.

be celebrating a Yes vote in September. Are you interested in

:01:22.:01:31.

politics? Not really. The European election in May is the next test of

:01:32.:01:36.

opinion. It will be a worrying time for the Liberal Democrats. The

:01:37.:01:41.

Conservatives were happy with third place. For the main man, time to

:01:42.:01:49.

take his seat in Holyrood. His first task, he says, will be to help

:01:50.:01:53.

people affected by the so-called bedroom tax.

:01:54.:01:57.

Joining me now is the latest MSP Alex Rowley.

:01:58.:02:03.

Given the turnout of less than 35% you cannot use this as an indicator

:02:04.:02:06.

of how people are feeling towards the Labour Party. We foster positive

:02:07.:02:14.

campaign. The response on the doorstep was positive towards

:02:15.:02:19.

Labour. We have a long way to go, but we are making good progress.

:02:20.:02:25.

This SNP survey suggests that many traditional Labour voters will vote

:02:26.:02:28.

yes in September. What do you surveys tell you? We talked to

:02:29.:02:36.

thousands of people. There were a large majority in favour of their No

:02:37.:02:42.

vote. There were a lot of and answered questions. I do not think

:02:43.:02:52.

we can take anything for granted. Do you accept the premise of which is

:02:53.:02:55.

that there might be people who will vote Labour in elections, but may

:02:56.:02:59.

well vote against the Labour Party position in September? That also

:03:00.:03:08.

applies the other way. I came across people who told me they voted SNP

:03:09.:03:11.

that they would not favour independence. The key thing is that

:03:12.:03:16.

over these next couple of months we have two have a positive campaign.

:03:17.:03:25.

People are looking for answers. We need to set out clearly what Labour

:03:26.:03:27.

's vision is for the future of Scotland. How concerned should you

:03:28.:03:35.

be with the survey in Scotland on Sunday newspaper which is suggesting

:03:36.:03:40.

a swing of 5% in the last four months towards a Yes vote? Is their

:03:41.:03:49.

complacency? We should not be complacent. That was not the message

:03:50.:03:53.

I was picking up on the doorsteps. There are a lot of people who have

:03:54.:03:57.

not decided. There are a lot of questions that have not been

:03:58.:04:01.

answered. It is crucial for Labour to set out its vision. That is what

:04:02.:04:06.

I intend to do in the coming months. Much was made of local

:04:07.:04:16.

issues in this campaign. Realistically, as MSP, you cannot

:04:17.:04:21.

deliver change on that front, can you? Debris is issue that front, can

:04:22.:04:25.

you? Debris is issued else come across on the doorsteps was the

:04:26.:04:30.

level of unemployment. Realistically, there is something

:04:31.:04:35.

that can be done. What can you as a backbencher do? We need to look at

:04:36.:04:41.

the youth guarantee that has been given. They need to look at a

:04:42.:04:46.

college funding. We need to look at partnerships with employers. These

:04:47.:04:50.

are all issues that I will be raising. The first thing I will be

:04:51.:04:57.

doing is signing the bill in terms of the bedroom tax as I think that

:04:58.:05:04.

is an inhumane attack. There are real things that we can do. Thank

:05:05.:05:12.

you. Now, in a moment, we'll be

:05:13.:05:16.

discussing the big events coming up this week, but first let's take a

:05:17.:05:26.

look back at the Week In 60 Seconds. Intelligence whistle-blower Edward

:05:27.:05:29.

Snowden is to stand for the post of rectal at Glasgow University.

:05:30.:05:34.

Elections for the position will take place next month.

:05:35.:05:39.

Public Health Minister Michael Matheson launched a new campaign to

:05:40.:05:42.

encourage more pubs to sell wine in smaller measures. Many people go in

:05:43.:05:48.

for a glass of wine and are only offered a medium or large glass, by

:05:49.:05:52.

introducing this smaller size, it allows people to make an informed

:05:53.:05:57.

choice. The Scottish Green Party called for football fans to be given

:05:58.:06:01.

the first right to buy their clubs during consultation on the land will

:06:02.:06:05.

reform. An environmental report recommended

:06:06.:06:07.

new proposals for dealing with contamination on a beach. Gordon

:06:08.:06:13.

Brown is calling for a clean-up to be financed by the Ministry of

:06:14.:06:16.

defence. Police Scotland announced the intent

:06:17.:06:20.

to close six control rooms as part of efforts to save up to ?73 million

:06:21.:06:27.

by 2026. And coming up this week on BBC Two

:06:28.:06:31.

Scotland is the first in a series of documentaries on the independence

:06:32.:06:36.

referendum. Events that helped shape our nation.

:06:37.:06:41.

There was a sense that we were opening up and are looking out at

:06:42.:06:45.

the world. In the first of a series, we ask how the events led us

:06:46.:06:49.

to one of the most important votes in Scottish history? Britain now has

:06:50.:06:56.

oil. People started to be more confident about their pride in

:06:57.:07:06.

Scotland. Scotland's Smoking Gun. Let's look at the weekend.

:07:07.:07:14.

I'm joined by our guests, columnist and former newspaper editor, Magnus

:07:15.:07:16.

Linklater, and Burdz Eye View blogger, Kate Higgins.

:07:17.:07:26.

Let's talk about that programme. The premise being that events over the

:07:27.:07:30.

last 30 years have led us to this independence referendum, is that the

:07:31.:07:34.

premise you agree with? Up to a point. There was one unexpected

:07:35.:07:39.

event which to place in 2011 which is the SNP winning an overall

:07:40.:07:43.

majority. I don't think anybody expected that. Up until then, there

:07:44.:07:49.

was a steady progress for the -- a steady progress. As a long-time

:07:50.:07:55.

supporter and independent supporter, were you surprised by this? I think

:07:56.:08:01.

everyone was surprised by the overall majority. While there had

:08:02.:08:07.

been a convergence of different factors, we should not underestimate

:08:08.:08:11.

the importance of the cultural flourishing. It was the same in the

:08:12.:08:15.

1980s that gave rise to Scotland United and gave Alf -- and helped

:08:16.:08:23.

galvanise. You have a huge flourishing of support for

:08:24.:08:26.

independence and I think the mood music from cultural aspects is very

:08:27.:08:29.

important to the direction of travel. They'll be more discussion

:08:30.:08:34.

when it airs. Let's talk about events this week

:08:35.:08:38.

and Mark Carney the governor of the Bank of England meeting Alex

:08:39.:08:41.

Salmond. Alex Salmond wants a currency union with the pound. There

:08:42.:08:46.

are reports that the governor named the cool on the idea, comparing it

:08:47.:08:51.

to the euro, which has had problems due to fiscal issues in member

:08:52.:08:55.

states. I presume Mark Carney will be wary of expressing to build an

:08:56.:09:03.

opinion. Yes, but he seems to be hardening his line. He is now

:09:04.:09:07.

suggesting that there would be significant obstacles to Scotland

:09:08.:09:12.

joining a currency union and I think what he is hinting there is not that

:09:13.:09:19.

Scotland would not be able to join a monetary union, but that it would be

:09:20.:09:24.

a very hard negotiation before it gets in and that the conditions

:09:25.:09:27.

imposed by the bank of England would perhaps be far tougher than Alex

:09:28.:09:32.

Salmond has indicated. I think that is the problem. It is a political

:09:33.:09:37.

problem. Is it the best solution? I think it is the only solution. I

:09:38.:09:44.

cannot see a Scottish pound being able to survive initially. Joining

:09:45.:09:48.

the Euro, I don't think any Scots would want that. I think it has to

:09:49.:09:52.

be the pound, but I think it will be tough. People like Jim Sellers: For

:09:53.:09:58.

a Scottish pound. Is this a solution that nationalists would want to? The

:09:59.:10:05.

short term solution of joining the starlings and is absolutely the

:10:06.:10:11.

right thing to do. Just on Mark Carney's intervention, let us make

:10:12.:10:15.

this clear, he is not a foreign dignitary, we help pay his wages, he

:10:16.:10:21.

has a duty to represent the whole of the argument to the whole of the UK.

:10:22.:10:25.

And that is also to represent Scotland's interests. Indeed. He is

:10:26.:10:32.

an independent voice though. Alex Salmon keeps making the argument

:10:33.:10:37.

that if he disagrees as an independent voice, he should be

:10:38.:10:42.

saying so. And as an independent voice, he has a duty to present all

:10:43.:10:48.

of the arguments and not just one camp's. Let's look at this opinion

:10:49.:10:55.

poll. It is a poll for Scotland on Sunday. It suggests a large swing

:10:56.:11:07.

towards yes. I presume you and others will be ecstatic. Absolutely.

:11:08.:11:14.

It has come a bit later in the day then perhaps we would have liked to

:11:15.:11:19.

have seen. But they have always talked about momentum, not about

:11:20.:11:24.

game changes or a Eureka moment. These small-scale conversations and

:11:25.:11:31.

not fighting a air war, fighting a grand battle to engage with people

:11:32.:11:36.

and communities. It seems to be bearing fruit. We are only shifting

:11:37.:11:41.

voters from no into undecided, but when you take what they would prefer

:11:42.:11:45.

to happen were they to choose now, clearly people are leaning towards

:11:46.:11:49.

independence and there are eight months to go. Those figures strip

:11:50.:11:59.

out the do not knows. Clearly, they are the battle ground. There are two

:12:00.:12:06.

caveats at about this poll, it is a small sample and the big swing is

:12:07.:12:11.

amongst younger voters. That is always the most volatile part of any

:12:12.:12:17.

poll. That can change either way. It is under 44s. Yes. Interestingly, a

:12:18.:12:26.

little swing by women voters who appear to be unhappy about the no

:12:27.:12:30.

campaign. I think this is interesting. I think there is a sort

:12:31.:12:35.

of worry, there are definite nerves in the no campaign about their

:12:36.:12:39.

arguments. It was quite well put by Jim Murphy over the weekend when he

:12:40.:12:45.

said that it is quite difficult to mount a yes campaign for a vote for

:12:46.:12:51.

no. I think that is the problem for the no campaign, they really have

:12:52.:12:56.

too find a positive argument. There is a big push towards women voters.

:12:57.:13:01.

We saw the conference yesterday. Nicola Sturgeon talking about an

:13:02.:13:06.

independent Scotland, a requirement of companies having 42 cents

:13:07.:13:08.

representation of women on boards. Is that workable? Absolutely. In

:13:09.:13:17.

Norway, they moved to 40% and it changed the culture. These are the

:13:18.:13:20.

kind of measures we want to see. Women have a right to an equal place

:13:21.:13:26.

in our society and that means pay and representation. These arguments

:13:27.:13:30.

will start winning over women's votes. Just a brief word. Naked

:13:31.:13:37.

political opportunism. They know that they have to win more women

:13:38.:13:44.

voters. Thank you for joining us. That is it from us. I will be back

:13:45.:13:50.

at the same time next week. You enjoyed what is left Sunday. For

:13:51.:13:55.

now. -- I do hope you enjoyed.

:13:56.:13:58.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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