19/01/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland

Morning, folks! Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Nick Clegg says Chris Rennard must apologise. What for, say his

friends. We'll ask senior Lib Dem Minister Danny Alexander whose side

he's on. What about the voters - what do they

make of the Lib Dems? We hear the views of a Sunday Politics Focus

Group. And donkey, they do other people 's

work. We'll get the verdict on Portsmouth

MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from - who else - but the

Minister for Portsmouth. On Sunday Politics Scotland: Does

the UK network of diplomacy really allow Scots to do more good in the

world and boost its foreign trade? We'll be asking an ex-ambassador and

a mEP. Johnson has pledged to recruit more

volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is

considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party's

former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer

appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against

him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate

behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are

demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for

and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going

away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got

seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a

reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no

female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not

encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it? You

feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous

process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the

evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But

clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible

and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.

Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat

peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not

reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political

issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party

whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster

enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,

it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from

the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They

presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more

Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder

to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more

relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.

That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib

Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything

that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of

Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of

what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a

cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage

the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there

was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the

by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it

did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without

their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go

away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will

come week. -- will come up this week.

So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of

this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the

polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal

Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went

to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.

Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have

recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have

not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the

one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John

Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib

Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the

outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of

character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit

bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.

Morrison's own brand of biscuit, not top of the range like Marks

Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between

David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they

had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find

it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.

Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,

let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck

between a rock and a hard place, for them as a party, I feel slightly

sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are

victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition. I

think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a

lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so

publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?

It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state

of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not

quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,

so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on

their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done

anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible

for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they

have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed

that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is

interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk

about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?

Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like

him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he

says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very

charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few

times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.

That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the

party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a

blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and

Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have

been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence

and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned

and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib

Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned

out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have

for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your

word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.

DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for

failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group

represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be

at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and

then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,

the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their

own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are

in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the

Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of

anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.

And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary

to the Treasury Danny Alexander. Welcome to the programme. One of the

things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any

credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are

getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first

thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was

not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right

beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to

deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour

left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one

focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very

hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering

without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the

largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal

Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to

is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise

that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your

measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income

tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The

role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are

the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a

strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We

saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour

Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income

tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do

not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots

of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,

people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged

children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard

between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we

secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery

is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We

need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people

who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their

savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem

policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the

need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big

hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We

have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay

commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this

announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other

things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we

have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get

Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is

something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay

commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this

stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?

I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We

have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic

impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has

credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not

be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince

Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,

he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don't

clear every word I say with him, I don't expect him to do the same to

me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was

blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay

commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the

financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also

right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the

commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have

to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are

the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed

that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees, and

that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in

Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear

about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,

the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies

in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The

big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.

That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of

working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our

economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make

sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum

wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit

is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the

confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 12

months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look

largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus

group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I

have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we

are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,

it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.

Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than

benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to

have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right

thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib

Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the

way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests

of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,

stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in

meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 2015

election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a

very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the

economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the

problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the

biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is

either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative

government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want

us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a

disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week

that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury

that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a

negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take

anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the

markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few

questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still

borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people

were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious

concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond

market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.

That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather

than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a

bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to

allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in

the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because

Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it

was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus

group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this

aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the

bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at

RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached

by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach

from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in

government, massive reductions... I'm not asking you about that, I'm

asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to

sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has

38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what

possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right

to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is

mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they

might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be

sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you

said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the

taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic

retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him

of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We

have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued

on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear

that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard,

that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm

caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for

Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to

apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't

think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House

of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the

apology, has been done properly. We are very democratic party, it is a

matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that

judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about

the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need

to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because

these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken

a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology

does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of

the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken

hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has

not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.

Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.

Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am

making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable, and

therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view

and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the

House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group

in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they

can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...

Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to

decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple

human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is

totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --

divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total

nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we

have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment

on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid

down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which

asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty

of confidentiality and responsibility under the data

protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in

a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why

should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven

allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not

been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to

continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the

recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.

Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris

Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits. He

says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party

because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those

rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.

The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of

which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found

distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't

think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it

both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a

proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the

time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most

important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made

that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on

the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We

just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank

you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.

Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to

run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the

revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies

were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital

communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how

worried should we be about their clandestine activity?

In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that

America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called

Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from

around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This

week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,

including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions

of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela

Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused

to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign

Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks

and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of

the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in

on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to

go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel

Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major

changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was

up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of

thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that

is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,

has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is

up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a

call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people

can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information

will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real

commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the

system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is

oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not

mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee

said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by

Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.

The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to

approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president

does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an

establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the

committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In

this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her

European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the

interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.

But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are

having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency

should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more

safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you

cannot see the What bothers me is it was not the

intelligence committee in the states that did the work to bring that

number down, it was a Judiciary Committee. The value of having two

different bodies taking a lead means you do not get one organisation with

one particular view. They fell down on torture, 77, weapons of mass

destruction, how can people have confidence in a body washed up if

you go around Europe and the world, we are an oddity in not requiring

judges to sign off warrants. -- a body? I do not accept that. There

were two microphone report on the attack and if you look at that,

people would say widely due not know about them? -- two reports. The

agencies have to have capability but that has to be subject to proper

oversight and scrutiny, I entirely agree. Did you know about Dishfire?

I knew about the capabilities they have. We visit on a regular basis

and the director tells us about the capabilities they have got. Some of

the names of these programmes we would not have known because they

are American. Did you know that GCHQ had the capability to do Dishfire to

get Dishfire material from the NSA? The committee knew we had the

capability to collect meta data and these days, people do not write

letters and use landline telephones, they use Internet, e-mail, so it is

important to the agencies can keep up with that technological change

within a proper legal framework. What would you like to see happen?

That framework should include, if a company is cooperating, it should be

illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. One of the big drivers in the US is

this has put a ?35 billion hole in the US economy because people do not

trust systems to be secure and we need to know where there is a front

for, there is not a different drawer into the system by hacking or even

foreign intelligence. We need judicial oversight with judges is

not politicians signing off, and a proper accountable body to

Parliament to oversee the agencies and not the Prime Minister. The ISC

as a result of the changes is now accountable to Parliament and not

simply the Prime Minister, pushed changes are taking place and I am up

for the debate about whether we need more change. At its heart, I want

our agencies, like most British people, to have the power to protect

the people of this country. Thank you to both of you. You are

watching Sunday politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: William Hague claims UK

diplomacy allows Scots to punch above their weight on the

international stage. We are on a journey to Cowdenbeath

to see how the candidates are preparing for Thursday's

by-election. And the Catalonian President Artur

Mas says he will press ahead with a referendum on independence this

year. In the latest of a series of

Scotland analysis papers presented by the Westminster government, the

Foreign Secretary, William Hague, was in Glasgow on Friday to outline

the case for Scotland remaining in the UK to further its foreign policy

objectives. Along with re-igniting the war of words over EU membership

and the terms on which an independent Scotland might expect to

gain entry, Mr Hague also pointed to the diplomatic network and

intelligence community which promotes and supports Scottish

national interests as part of the UK. Pro-independence supporters say

Scotland will play a full part in world affairs.

Mr Hague said being in the UK gives Scotland international influence and

Scots benefit from an extensive network of diplomacy which includes

267 embassies, high commissions and consorts, membership of the EU and

NATO, a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, MI5 and

MI6. United Kingdom will exercise its

functions in the world and I am confident about that, but Scotland

would be in a different situation and would be without easy access to

most things. The huge consular services that look after people all

over the world, support for businesses through UK trade and

investment. This would have to be reinvented somehow.

The Scottish of mud 's White Paper says Scotland would be a member of

international organisations and would have embassies, membership of

the EU, NATO and the UN, and an internal style agency and an

external MI6 agency an option. The Scottish government envisions an

independent nation able to make a contribution on the global stage. It

is not impressed by reports the UK might be using its diplomatic

network to campaign against any -- a Yes vote. There have been reports UK

officials have been speaking to the Spanish, Russian government, to

lobby their support. I have not heard any straight denials of that

from the UK government, if it is true, I think it is deplorable

activity and I would hope William Hague as Foreign Secretary would

stop it. I am joined now by Sir William

Patey, a former British Ambassador to Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and

Afghanistan. And speaking today for the Better Together campaign, and

the SNP MEP Alyn Smith. Good morning. Does Scotland benefit from

the current diplomatic setup? I always make a point, I will knock on

the door of the High Commissioner of the UK Ambassador. The network does

what it does in representing UK interests. The UK interest is not

exactly the same as the Scottish interest on all things at all times

and what we are talking about is setting up a network. Scottish

development International has already got Scotland house in

Brussels and various things to build on. That network will be 100%

focused on articulating Scottish interest, having had that interest

articulated and formulated in Scotland by the people of Scotland.

But it would be a quarter of the size so influence is diminished.

There is an ordinary before that but that is ignoring the point that

under the Lisbon Treaty, much of this stuff is done by the EU on

behalf of the member states. I was up the UN in November it in New York

and increasingly, the member state speaking with one voice -- New York.

That is then broadcast on a wider stage. The network will be smaller

which leads to cost savings, we will have a different network focused on

promoting Scottish interests and our aggressive values around the world.

As a diplomat, how much time did you spend promoting Scottish interests?

I rot, the EU did not secure opt out from Kashmir and sorted out

discrimination against the Scottish whiskey industry is that promotes

Scottish firms, so it is a myth that the EU represents the interests of

Scotland. Do you accept the point that sometimes the UK interest is

not always the same Scottish interest? I had 37 years in the

foreign service and there was never a dichotomy between the two. Would

that to promote Scotland as part of the UK -- we were there to promote.

Would looked at a Scottish interests and we did that, we looked after

Scottish citizens in trouble and promoted Scottish firms -- we looked

after. I do not understand the conflict of interest. The Better

Together campaign is based on the assumption that Scottish and UK

interests coincide, that is not true. Look at what we have done in

terms of council tax, student tuition, prescription fees. You seem

to suggest Scottish interests were not demoted? The question is, could

we do better? -- promoted. With a taste of independence, we have made

different decisions, Scottish solutions. Look at our

representatives in Westminster, 90% of MPs opposed to the bedroom tax,

the vast majority of Scottish MPs were opposed to privatisation of the

Royal Mail. It is operating to a fundamentally different set of

priorities that we would have chosen in Scotland. Does it matter if the

country the size of Scotland does not have a seat at every top table?

It means our influence is less. Scotland can clearly be independent

with its own diplomatic and intelligence services but it would

be a small country vying for attention in a crowded marketplace.

Over 180 countries in the UN. From my own experience and talking to

ambassadors from smaller countries, I know how difficult they find it to

get access and influence. Scotland can leveraged the broader influence

of the UK for allsorts of historical reasons, a seat on the Security

Council, a seat at the G20, these are places where the global system

is determined. Scotland has a much more direct influence on those and

it would if it had to convert with other allies and small groups of

countries. Scotland would pay more and get less. Is that a fair point?

That really is quite dated. We motoring in terms of developing. The

idea that Scotland will not be the UK, of course not, we will not have

nuclear weapons. The idea that we have a permanent seat on the UN

Security Council, we do not need or want one. We will formulate our own

decisions. I do not accept the point the UK is working on our behalf as

well as we could ourselves. There have been complaints and we heard

from Nicola Sturgeon she feels that sometimes the diplomacy is being

used to work against the issue of Scottish independence. Our colleague

Andrew Marr asked Vladimir Putin if he had any advice for David Cameron

on the question of Scottish independence.

Here is what he had to say. It is not a matter for Russia. It is

a domestic issue for the UK. People have a right to soft in a nation --

to self rule. I believe one should not forget that being part of a

single strong state has some advantages and one should not

overlook this. But it is a choice for every pupil according to their

own circumstances -- people. Perhaps the Scots could join the new

customs union? -- during your new. I would not rule it out.

He says this is not a matter for Russia but that being part of a

single strong state has more advantages and nobody should

overlook that, your response? Both sides of the arguments can quote

lines selectively. He started with, this is not a matter for Russia. He

does not have a boat in it and not many people are taking lessons and

democracy from Vladimir Putin! So people should not be quoting world

leaders? People are professional, they recognise a domestic debate and

a domestic decision. The people best placed to make about -- to make a

decision about Scotland are the people of Scotland and the rest of

the world will respect that. And to the Edinburgh agreement, we have a

cordial and grown-up agreement with the UK government that both sides

will respect. Do you expect world leaders to become embroiled in this

debate or will they stay out like? ? I do not think will get involved. --

like Vladimir Putin. It is for the UK and the Scottish people to decide

on this. But it is important that Scots understand the international

implications and the smooth the path that is outlined by the SNP that it

will all be rosy is not true. The reality is that Scottish

independence will cost more and it will be a difficult road, not

impossible. But Scotland will pay more for less.

We will return to this! Thank you both -- thank you, both.

It is the final weekend of campaigning in the Cowdenbeath

by-election. It has been a quick battle, really just getting off the

ground after the Christmas holidays. Called after the death of the

sitting MSP Helen Eadie, it seems the SNP only have a slim chance of a

win. The constituency managed to survive the nationalist avalanche of

2011, while others around it fell. Andrew Kerr has been to meet the

candidates. The butcher, baker, betting shop, a

typical Scottish town, welcome to Cowdenbeath. It is called, it it is

a by-election that has hardly set the world alight, but people are

talking about the issues that matter the most. -- cold. The state of the

High Street and local jobs. Small businesses are a major thing for me.

When you think of the High Street here, what can be done to help it?

The High Street is going to die a death, so hopefully some

regeneration will be goat. Regenerate the High Street for a

start. There is nothing left. It is deserted. Mainly that and the job

situation. It is about Scottish independence, that is a big vote

this year. That is very important and the structure but, we need more

information. So the constitution is also an issue, the Labour candidate

picking up on that on the doorsteps here. Labour need -- needs to set

out its vision for Scotland. Alex Rowley is the council leader in

Fife, Labour survived the SNP onslaught here in 2011 and it is

likely the party will pull through again. There is a traditional Labour

message on jobs, health and the referendum. Scotland has been put on

hold for a year, we see cuts happening, we see health and social

care whether a government in Edinburgh will not take

responsibility for its role so we are not taking anything for granted,

we will campaign for every vote. I message is loud and clear, in this

constituency, if elected, I will be a strong voice representing this

constituency in the Scottish Parliament.

What are the main issues for you? People are saying it is the pressure

on budgets. Current data is a hard nut to cross -- break for the

Nationalists. But there is optimistic talk from the candidates.

If we can -- speak to enough voters and give them the message that only

we can protect them then we can convince them and we could win. Not

so for the Lib Dems with 4% here last time. Look through the window

at a Lib Dem soul at this factory and what do you find? It seems

reporters are the anyone's asking about controversial welfare reforms.

People are talking about it. Their worries about independence and jobs

and taxes, but when it comes to these discussions, all I can say is

I understand there is a need for welfare reform and it has to be done

sensibly and fairly. A strong defence of UK Government policy from

the Conservatives. In Aber Dower, a promise to protect green spaces and

a promise to listen. I was brought up in Fife and I work with people is

at -- people and ask them what they want. I don't tell the man that

makes me unusual as a politician. UKIP claims they are also listening.

They are campaigning on the beach here.

The authorities pass the buck. If you vote for UKIP, we will make sure

things get done and this beach is cleaned up. From the bay, back to

the high street. After Thursday, voters will no longer be bombarded

with messages as the campaign teams hit the road and the visiting

politicians get back in their boxes. Here is a full list of candidates

could: polling will take place on Thursday

and there is more information on our website.

I'm joined by Professor John Curtice from Strathclyde University --

University. I think you have seen their the candidates try hard to

find local issues on which to campaign. As in Dunfermline, the

state of the town centre is being talked about. Equally, there are

claims about whether the independence referendum is or is not

an issue. Equally, there are claims and counterclaims about whether

people are voting for the policies of the UK or Scottish government. A

typical by-election mix here. Dunfermline, the SNP were trying to

defend a marginal seat that we did not expect them to hang onto.

Cowdenbeath is one of the 15 constituencies the Labour Party did

manage to hang onto in 2011. What makes different then? It makes it

different in the sense that it is not a by-election in which there is

a great deal of interest because even by-elections in opposition

seats, we find the government not doing terribly well. We usually find

the opposition hang on and make some progress. We will be looking to see

whether the SNP and the Labour performance is similar to or

different from the performance in Aberdeen in the summer and in

Dunfermline in the autumn. In truth, those are the two by-elections, they

provide us with a framework. Almost undoubtedly the reason why the

Labour Party hung onto the seat in 2011 is because of Helen Eadie's

personal popularity. Overall, what do by-elections like this tell us?

We have had tremendous upsets and sometimes they have gone to plan. Do

they actually feed that much into the national picture? Occasionally

changes the national mood substantially. They had a dramatic

impact last year on the position in UK wide politics. You have to look

at them and say, as compared with other by-elections is it exceptional

and telling us something is changing? If the Labour Party ends

up with around 50%, which is what you would expect given what happened

in Aberdeen and Dunfermline and given what they did in this

constituency in the 2012 local elections, we will say not much has

changed. If the SNP end up at around 3031%, that is consistent with their

performances in previous by-elections and in the 2012 local

elections. 30 or 31%. I think we need to see what happened previously

in local elections and by-elections and that gives us a guide as to

whether this is more of the same and we shouldn't be terribly surprised

or whether, in fact, something is changing. We're constantly told the

electorate here is sophisticated. Will that mean we can read anything,

therefore, into the forthcoming referendum as a result of this? I

would be wary of that. If you look at the SNP's average vote share, it

is around 40%. Average vote for independence is around 38 or 39, not

that far apart. But, at the end of the day, remember that governments

tend not to do terribly well, even if they are popular. It is still

relatively popular as the government, albeit not as popular as

three years ago. Snowdrops in by-elections will undoubtedly

exaggerate the reek -- weakness of the SNP's position. The drop in this

by-election will be greater than any drop for independence. Thank you for

that. You're watching Sunday Politics

Scotland and the time is coming up for midday. Let's cross now for the

news from Reporting Scotland with Andrew Kerr.

Good afternoon. Police have arrested and charged the mother of the

three-year-old boy, Mikaeel Kular, in connection with his death. This

report from where the boy 's body was found.

The house here remained cordoned off today. The body of Michael Adebolajo

was removed yesterday afternoon. To communities have been affected by

the little boy 's death and hundreds turned out for a church service in

the area of Edinburgh where he had lived with his family for the last

18 months. His Merc -- mother has been charged in connection with his

murder and she is due to appear in court tomorrow. A man has died after

being pulled out of the sea at Stonehaven in Aberdeenshire. Two

members of the public and a police officer rescued the man yesterday

afternoon. He was then airlifted to hospital in Aberdeen. The

43-year-old died there in the early hours of this morning.

Health boards have been told to cut down on their use of the private

sector. The new guidance has come from the Health Secretary, Alex

Neil. The most recent figures indicate NHS spending on independent

health care was less than 1% of the budget. Labour had said using the

private sector was a "sticking plaster" approach to health care.

Dry and brighter conditions across the south-west corner. Staying windy

across the North East with lighter wind elsewhere.

That's all for now. Catalonia's president has praised

Britain's pragmatic approach to Scottish independence. Artur Mas

told the BBC that he would press ahead with the controversial vote on

independence in Catalonia in November even though the Spanish

government says it is illegal and they will block it. The two

campaigns for independence are similar but there are key

differences. Once, the Catalan language was

banned in schools here. Now, Catalan children grow up with the national

identity distinct from the rest of Spain. Support for independence is

growing. This demonstration in September 2012 attracted more than 1

million people. Scotland has seen nothing like this. Spain says it

will block Novembers referendum as illegal. I asked Catalonia's

president whether it would encourage Catalans to invite -- vote for

independence if Scotland voted yes first. I don't think so. I think

there are some similarities between Scotland and Catalonia but there are

also differences. I think that both countries have enough personality,

even from a political point of view, to follow their own ways. I

wouldn't say that everything is similar between the Scottish process

and the Catalan process, although there are some similarities. Do you

see Scotland as an ally or does it complicates things? I don't think

the Scottish case complicates things in Catalunya. Let me say that we

envy a bit what is happening in the United Kingdom because what we would

like is an agreement with the Spanish central institutions. Our

aim is to reach an agreement and organise the consultation in

accordance with the opinion of the Spanish government, but the

difference is that, in Spain, the central government says you don't

have the right to vote. So you would rather be dealing with David

Cameron? Of course. Not exactly with Mr Cameron, but with the British

mentality. That is to say, if you have a nation - Scotland or

Catalunya, you have a broad majority of the population asking for a

referendum, asking for real democracy, what do you have to do?

To sit at the table and talk about it and reach agreements and to let

people vote. That is the British way. If Scotland and Catalunya were

to vote yes, would they carry on as members of the EU in their own right

on slightly different terms, or would they have to reapply as new

members? This is what we don't know. Frankly,

we don't know what will happen, but nobody knows. The Spanish government

doesn't know what will happen and the European Commission doesn't

know. What do you think will happen? I think common sense is the most

important point. Common sense shows us that if a European country

belonging to the European Union wants to stay in the European Union,

the European Union has two make it easy. There is another big

difference between the two. In Scotland, support for independence

has been solid at around 30% arguably for decades. In Catalonia

it has shot up to 50% in the last few years and many anti-independence

campaigners believe it is a short-term response to a short-term

economic crisis, but one which could have profound and irreversible

long-term consequences. Opponents of the referendum one tough action

funds gained -- Spain to rain Catalonia in. For instance, we could

suspend the autonomy. We hope it will not be a scenario that will

arise, but our democratic constitution gives us some tools to

stop illegal misuse. But the popular mood seems unmistakable. In a

country where even eight-year-old child for independence, Spain 's

refusal to grant a referendum risks pushing more Catalans into the

independence camp. In a moment, we will discuss the big

events coming up in Holyrood. First, a week at -- a look back at the

week. The Treasury pledged to honour all

UK debt in the event of independence, it is hoped.

Uncertainty about the sharing of debt is pushing up the cost of

borrowing. Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said plans to abolish

corroboration would he delayed to review the impact of reform, some

believe it could lead to miscarriages of justice. The

Scottish government is creating a veterans commission at to champion

the interests of ex-servicemen and women. Scotland's economy grew by

0.7% last year, the Finance Secretary John Swinney welcomed the

figures. They show over the last six quarters sustained and accelerated

growth in the Scottish economy and the annual growth of the Scottish

economy is at 2.1%. Research by Edinburgh University found police in

Scotland carry out four times more stop and searches than in England

and Wales. Well, that was the Week in Sixty

Seconds. Let's have a look at the headlines and what is coming up this

week. And joining me to have a look at

what the next few days hold is Times political correspondent Lindsay

McIntosh, and the political editor from the Sunday Herald, Tom Gordon.

Good afternoon. Let's start with the story on the front pages of most of

the papers, the death of the-year-old Mikaeel Kular

dominating the papers. This seems to have touched the whole country. It

is hot waking, instant identification for parents like

myself, a child goes missing with tragic consequences --

heartbreaking. No surprise it is dominating the front pages, a

terrible story. Police have been praising the efforts of people in

Edinburgh. It is easy to be cynical and think people are on caring, but

that is not the case. Their striking images of hundreds of members of the

local community coming forward -- there are striking. Conducting

searches with the police. Mothers came out and said, if this had been

my child missing, I would hope everybody would come and help. And

it has had this heartbreaking end. More on this story in the coming

days. Let's talk about diplomacy. You have got a story in the Sunday

Herald about how the SNP sees foreign policy developing. This is

intriguing, it could be a great idea or a hostage to fortune. They want

the policy of, do no harm, is strong ethical dimensional to it. It would

mean stopping exporting arms to reprehensible regimes. So please

stop with the best of intentions, these things -- so these things

start with the best of intentions but it will be interesting to see if

they carry it off. We have heard about ethical policies before, Robin

Cook 's idea before Labour came to power and it did not last long. It

is a nice phrase and it is in the White Paper. It is not something

everybody will oppose but how do you see that question --? Also

recognition that Scotland's role in the world will be different to the

role the UK has played when it comes to intervention. Very much, we have

had from Angus Robertson a lot of discussion about Scotland becoming a

centre for peace and reconciliation and if you can that with the UK

government, we have had illegal wars in Iraq. I want a different

direction, much more peaceful and co-operative. I want to break away

from being the in the pocket of the US. There will be talk about Scots

having a different attitude to immigration. Is the SNP likely to

say that? This is not quite a myth but I do not think the facts pan out

as the SNP presents them. If you look at opinion polls in this area,

Scottish attitudes to immigration and the EU are pretty similar to the

rest of the UK. To an extent, it is an exaggeration from the SNP that we

are somehow there are different to the rest of the UK. When it comes to

anti-EU sentiment, that seems to be encapsulated by UKIP, not the same

North of the border? UKIP are a shambles North of the border and the

leadership structure has virtually collapsed. They have yet to achieve

by percent of the vote in a by-election. -- 5%. Could change

with the European elections in May, but no sense of that. How helpful to

the Better Together campaign into Jack is like the one on Friday from

William Hague? Do those campaigning against a Yes vote CDs Westminster

figures as being helpful? -- CBEs. William Hague and Danny Alexander

did very well on Friday. Where the interventions have been unhelpful is

where we have had unnamed Tories from down South passing comment on

the Better Together campaign from a distance. We had remarks that I was

to dialling is comatose to and that is not helpful -- Alistair Darling.

But William Hague produced a helpful contribution. And Danny Alexander.

There had been interventions from George Osborne is and some feel that

helps their campaign. -- George Osborne. That always the Bay are a

recruiting Sergeant for the Yes campaign if they come North -- they

always say that they are. It annoys them because the message can

resonate with some Scottish voters and they would like them to stay out

completely. We have got the publication of the latest instalment

of the Scottish attitudes survey and this will look at independence. Is

either side changing minds in this debate? I think it is fractional at

the moment. There is possibly a sense that the Yes vote is getting a

bit of traction in the sense that the polls will narrow, but I do not

think we will see a huge swing. Since the White Paper has come out,

the book are starting to weigh the argument is a lot of than they have

in the past -- people. I cannot see social attitude surveys showing

anything significant we -- significantly different. Do you feel

the public are engaged? But as much as they will be. Even if the

campaign went on longer, five years, people would only switch on in the

last couple of months. They will only get engaged in the closing

period. What will be interesting is if there is any kind of difference.

We are seeing increasingly undecided voters and perhaps people moving

into the may be camp, but it is quite slow. I do not think they will

poll of enough momentum. -- pick up enough momentum. We just hear

arguments reiterated and we cannot look for anything new from either

campaign pushed up -- campaign? We have got another four or five

campaigners system of the arguments they made initially will be brought

out in finer detail. From the other side, they will have to put flesh on

the bones of a lot of the propositions they make in the White

Paper, which is supposed to be their manifesto. I do not think we will

see anything left field. But a long eight months to go! It has been a

long year and a half! One of the big political stories will be the

Cowdenbeath by-election, it does not set the world on fire! Maybe it is

the time of year the weather, I cannot see it it upset. The SNP

rolling their eyes as a safe -- and seeing it as a safety seat. These

things can cost up to ?100,000 a time and this is the third in quick

succession and I think they would rather save their energy for the big

one. So pity the poor people in Cowdenbeath! Indeed, it is not going

to be the most engaging by-election. We heard from John

Curtis earlier, it looks like it will be Labour. The feeling in

Holyrood is, let's get this over and move on. We get the result and

Friday morning. Thank you for coming here. -- on Friday morning.

That is all from the us this week. I will be back at the same time next

week. Until then, goodbye.