16/02/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


16/02/2014

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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LineFromTo

Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be extremely

:00:36.:00:44.

difficult if not impossible for an independent Scotland to join the

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European Union. So says the president of the European

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Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant development in the

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independence debate. It is our top story. He has got the power to bring

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travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow joins us for the

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interview. Now the by-election, another second place for UKIP. Just

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how big a threat does Nigel Farage's party pose for the Tory

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party? And coming up on Sunday Politics

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Scotland: The President of the European Commission says an

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independent Scotland would find it "difficult if not impossible" to

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gain approval from other member states for EU entry.

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political panel in the business. The twits will be as incessant and

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probably as welcome as the recent rain. A significant new development

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in the debate over Scottish independence this morning, the

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President of the European Commission, President Jose Manuel

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Barroso, has confirmed what the Nationalists have long denied, that

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an independent Scotland would have to reply to join the European Union

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as a new member, that it would require the agreement of all 28

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member states and that would be, in his words, extremely difficult, if

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not impossible. In case there is a new country, a new state coming out

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of a current member state, it will have to apply and, this is very

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important, the application to the union would have to be approved by

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all of the other member states. Countries like Spain, with the

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secessionist issues they have? I don't want to interfere in your

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democratic discussion here, but of course, it will be extremely

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difficult to get the approval of all of the other member states, to have

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a new member coming in from one member state. We have seen that that

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Spain has been opposing even the recognition, for instance, so it is

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a similar state. It is a new country. I believe it is great to be

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externally difficult, if not impossible. Well, he says he doesn't

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want to interfere, but he has just dropped a medium-sized explosive

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into the debate on Scottish independence? A huge story. Alex

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Salmond must be wondering what is going to go wrong next. His pitch to

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the Scottish people is based on two things, the currency union with

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England and the rest of the United Kingdom, which was blown apart last

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week, and this morning, his claims that Scotland would automatically

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get into the European Union has been dynamited. He's not only saying that

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they would have to apply, it is also saying it might be impossible to get

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the agreement of all 28 members to allow Scotland in. That's even more

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significant than the application? The reference to Spain is

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interesting, we talk about Catalan independence, an economic and active

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area that Spain does not want to be independent. About five other

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countries are blocking Kosovo's accession to the EU. There is no

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reason they would want to encourage the secessionist in their country by

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letting Scotland do the same. If Scotland does have to apply, and it

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does get in, it solves the currency problem because all new members have

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to accept the Euro? At the moment, the SNP are rejecting that quite

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strongly. What an interesting intervention today. However, I know

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that those arguing that Scotland should stay in the union are worried

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that the polls are tightening. A lot of these interventions, parents care

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arguments, they don't look like they are convincing the Scottish people.

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We haven't had any polls yet? We haven't, but we have since the

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currency debate was reignited in the last few weeks and it shows the

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polls tightening slightly. I think Alistair Darling's campaign would

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prefer to be much further ahead at the stage. They are worried that

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these technical commandments are not having much sway. Are the polls

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tightening slightly? They could be within the statistical margin for

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error. They are, but not much. Alex Salmond's main page is one of

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reassurance. He wants to say you can vote for independence, a pound in

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the pocket will be the same as before and you will still be a

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member of the European Union. In the last three or four matter days, both

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of those claims have been blown apart. Angus MacNeil has already

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told BBC Radio 5 Live that the remarks are nonsense and he is

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playing more politics. We hope to speak to the SNP's finance minister,

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John Swinney, a little bit later in the programme. It is not just the

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constant rain that London commuters have had to deal with. There was

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also a strike on the tube that disrupted the travel of millions. A

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second stoppage was on the cards, but it was called off at the last

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minute. The leader of the biggest

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underground workers union, the RMT, is Bob Crow, who has led his members

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into 24 strikes on the tube since 2005, as well as disputes on the

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national rail network. Under his leadership, the union's membership

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has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to more than 80,000, at a time when

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union membership overall has been shrinking. The current dispute has

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seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris Johnson over the mayor's plans to

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close tube station ticket offices. The 48-hour stoppage at the

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beginning of this month is estimated to have cost the London economy ?100

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million. The two sides have agreed a truce, for now, but Mr Crow has

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threatened further action if the mayor imposes his changes.

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Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday interview.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You have suspended the strike for the

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moment. What will it take to call it off entirely? Want to know first of

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all wider booking office has to close. The Mayor of London made it

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quite clear in his election programme that the booking offices

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would remain open. It was strange, really, because Ken Livingstone

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wanted to close them down and the mayor thought it was popular to keep

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them open and put in his campaign to keep them open. However, we have not

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the news figures. We are being told only 3% of people use the booking

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offices. That's not true. In research done, if somebody does to a

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booking office with somebody sitting there and asks for a ticket of less

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than ?5, they are not allowed to sell them a ticket, it is madness.

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Do you use the ticket office? When it is open, yes. You said to ITV

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that he didn't. I don't know what I said to ITV, I don't know what time

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people use them, sometimes they are open and sometimes they are closed.

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People make out that these ticket office staff are people that sit

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behind barriers like a newsagent. I'm not knocking a newsagent,

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however, these people were the same people treated like Lions when they

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were helping people named in the terrorist incidents, taking them out

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of the panels. Suddenly they are lazy people that sit in ticket

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offices. My understanding is that the people would come from behind

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and be out and about now. It is the management wants to run the

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underground without ticket offices, isn't that their prerogative? They

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are paid to manage, not you, not your members, they are the managers?

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Managers are there to manage, and we want good managers. But we've got

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some really bad managers that are not looking at the railway as a

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whole. This is a successful industry, not an industry in

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decline, one of the most successful in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million

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people a day. All of the forecast is or it will move to 3.6 million per

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day. The mayor wants to run services on a Friday and Saturday night. We

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are not opposed to that. However, it does not make sense that if more

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people are going to be using the tube on Friday and Saturday, coming

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home at two o'clock three o'clock in the morning, a lot of people

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drinking, a lot of people not dragging, why take 1000 people of

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the network that come to the aid of people that are looking to people? I

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want to show you this picture. This is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I

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think it is. I was trying to copy you. You deserve this break because

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you have done a fantastic job for your members. Yes, I don't see what

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that has got to do with it. Let's get every editor of the daily

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newspapers and see where they go on their holidays, I would like to

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know. What I choose to do... I'm not attacking you for doing that...

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You've got a picture up there, I've got to say, why don't they go and

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follow Boris Johnson when he was away on holiday, when the riots were

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taking place in London, and he refused to come back? Why don't they

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go and view the editors of newspapers, where they go on

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holiday? Why do they look at you when you go on holiday? They

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sometimes do, actually. The basic pay of a tube driver will soon be

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?52,000. Ticket office workers are already earning over ?35,000. Never

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mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, or membership by your house for what

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you have done for them? When you look at the papers this morning, I

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see that Wayne Rooney is going to get a ?70 million deal over the next

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four deals. I see NHS doctors are getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot

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of people that do a lot of people that, in my opinion, don't do

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anything for society. The top paid people in this country should be

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doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, we live in a jungle. If you are not

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strong, the bosses will walk all over you. The reason why we got good

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terms and conditions is because we fought for them. The reality is, all

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of these three political parties, liberals, Tories and Labour, they

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have all put no programme that to defend working people. So we have to

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do it on our own. And that is why you have done such a great job for

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your members and why union membership has been rising, people

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want to be part of a successful operation. But it has come at a cost

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for less well-paid workers, who travel on the cheap? If everyone

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believes if London Underground tube workers take a pay freeze they are

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going to redistribute the money to the rest of the workers that work on

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the cheap... But the people that travel on the tube, let's look at

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some of them, they are the ones that suffer from your strike action. The

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starting salary of a cheap driver now, ?48,000. The starting salary

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for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22,000 for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a

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teacher starting out. As your members have spread, they have had

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to live through 24 strikes in 13 years to push up your members

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wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The have put a pay freeze on by

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conservatives and liberals. The police constables, so have the

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teachers. We have had the ability to go and fight. The reality is, at the

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end of the day, as I have said before, no one is going to put up

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the cause for workers. Not one single party in parliament are

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fighting the cause for workers. They all support privatisation, they all

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support keeping the anti-trade union laws, they all support illegal wars

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around the world. Unless they have a fighting trade union, our members

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pay would be as low as some others. You said we could not care less if

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we have 1 million strikes. But these people, the lower paid people who

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travel on the tube, who need it as an essential service, they care. Of

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course they care, I've said before that I apologise to the troubling

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public for the dispute that took place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It

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two to tango. If the boy never imposed terms and conditions on us

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against our will... But you've got great terms and conditions! But it's

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a constant battle, they are trying to change them. Drivers are having

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their pay going up to ?50,000. You said they are making it worse, it is

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going up. They are trying to make things worse for workers. You said

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at the start of the interview that the tube strike cost ?100 million in

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two days. It means that when members go to work for two days it is worth

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?100 million. That demonstrates what they are worth. Only a fighting

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trade union can defend workers out there. Your members should enjoy

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what you have got for them, because it's not going to last, is it?

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Technology will change the whole way your business operates. As Karl Marx

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says, you said I was a mixture of Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and

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the Sopranos. I thought that was quite funny... The Karl Marx part of

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it, the only thing that is constant is change. We have been crying out

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for new technology. But for who? To put people on the dole, so they

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can't do anything and do anything for society, or technology so

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everybody benefits, lower fares, better service and better terms and

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conditions for the workers. But you have made Labour so expensive on the

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underground that management now has a huge incentive to substitute

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technology for Labour. And that's what it's going to do, it is closing

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the ticket offices and very soon, starting in 2016, the driverless

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trains coming. What I am saying is that your members should enjoy this

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because it's not going to last. Driverless trains are not coming

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in, it is not safe. We have them in Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it

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is not safe? These are new lines that have been built so that when it

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breaks down, people can get out of the tunnel. Would you want to be

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stuck on a summers day on the Northern line? A pregnant woman who

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cannot get off the train? Absolute panic that takes place, the reality

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is simple, it is a nonsense. It's not going to happen because it is a

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Victorian network. On Docklands railway for example it is driverless

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but when the train breaks down, it is above ground on a very small

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section. All of these other cities managed to have it. You remind me

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about Henry Ford in the 1930s when he said, you see that robot over

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their, he cannot buy a car. All sorts of new jobs are being created

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all the time in other areas. Come back to the ticket offices, not many

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people use the ticket offices any more, what is wrong with getting the

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stuff out of the ticket office on to the concourses, meeting and

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greeting, helping disabled people and tourists and making it a better

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service? They can do more on the concourse than they can in the

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ticket office. Andrew, he took the decision to close down every single

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ticket office. You cannot compare for example Chesham with the likes

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of Heathrow. Are you telling me people are going to be on a long

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transatlantic flight, arrived at Heathrow and cannot get a ticket.

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The stuff will be redeployed on the concourse. The simple problem is

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that it is not just about the booking office, it is about people

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having a visual. If you are partially sighted, you cannot use

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the machines. If British is not your first language, you cannot use the

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offices. How many languages do your members speak? I don't know, I

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struggle with English. The machines can speak many different languages.

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They are dehumanising things. You phone the bank, all you hear is,

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press one for this, two for that. People want to hear it human being

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and what makes the London Underground so precious is that

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people want to see people. Having well-dressed, motivated people out

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on the concourse, what part of that don't you like? They will be on the

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concourse and they will have machines. The fact is that London

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Underground did a risk assessment of closing down their booking offices

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and it is clear that if you are disabled, if you are partially

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sighted, London Underground becomes more dangerous. You are posing the

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closing of ticket offices, opposing driverless trains, when you opposed

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to the Oyster card when it came in? No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal

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with it. It is not the only way. They should supplement the staff and

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the job. If more people used the London Underground system, you want

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more staff to deal with them. Let's look at your mandate to strike. Of

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your members who work on the Tube, only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30%

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voted for the strike, so 70% actually didn't vote to strike of

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your members, but the strike went ahead. Isn't it right to have a

:19:39.:19:44.

higher threshold before you can cause this disruption? It would be

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lovely if everyone voted but the Tories took that away. We used to

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have ballots at the workplace. What I'm trying to say to you is that we

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used to have a ballot box at the workplace and the turnouts were

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higher. The Tories believe that if they can have a secret ballot where

:20:08.:20:13.

ballot papers went to people's home addresses, where they could be

:20:14.:20:18.

persuaded by the bosses, votes would be different. Let's go back to the

:20:19.:20:23.

workplace ballot because you get a bigger turnout. Will the RMT

:20:24.:20:30.

re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I have no intention to. We got

:20:31.:20:35.

expelled from the Labour Party. But you will give some money to the

:20:36.:20:44.

Labour councils? Those that support our basic policies get money, we

:20:45.:20:53.

don't give money directly to MPs, we give it to constituencies. Are you

:20:54.:20:57.

going to stand for re-election in 2016? I might do, I might not. You

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haven't decided yet? No, but more than likely I will do. And will you

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stand again as an anti-EU candidate? Yes, I am standing in London, and

:21:16.:21:21.

right across, completely different to UKIP's policies. They are

:21:22.:21:27.

anti-European, they believe all of the faults of Europe are down to the

:21:28.:21:33.

immigrants. We are anti-European Union. If London Underground is as

:21:34.:21:39.

badly run as you think, why don't you run for mayor? That is down the

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road, it has not come up yet. I'm not ruling anything out. I'm not

:21:47.:21:51.

ruling out getting your job on the Sunday Politics. You have got to

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retire as well, you have got to put your feet up. I will get you to

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renegotiate my package. Shall we go on strike first? If I could have

:22:05.:22:10.

your wages, I would have two trips to Rio every year. Good luck. And if

:22:11.:22:21.

you're in the London region they'll have more on the Tube strike later

:22:22.:22:27.

in the programme. Let's get back to those comments from Jose Manuel

:22:28.:22:33.

Barroso, and reaction to these comments from John Swinney. Scottish

:22:34.:22:39.

Nationalists denied all along you would have to reapply, we have now

:22:40.:22:45.

heard it without any caveats, you will and you might not get in. I

:22:46.:22:52.

think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments were preposterous this morning. He

:22:53.:23:00.

compared the situation to the one in Kosovo. Britain is the member,

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Scotland is not the member. If you go independent, you will have to

:23:07.:23:11.

reapply, he says. All of the arrangements we have in place are

:23:12.:23:15.

compatible with the workings of the European Union because we have been

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part of it for 40 years. The propositions we put forward work

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about essentially negotiating the continuity of Scotland's membership

:23:27.:23:30.

of the European Union and that position has now been explained and

:23:31.:23:36.

debated and discussed and reinforced by comments made by experts. We are

:23:37.:23:48.

talking about the president of the European commission and we have

:23:49.:23:51.

spoken to him since he gave that interview on the BBC this morning,

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it was an intervention that he made that he wanted to lay out that

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Scotland should be in no doubt that if they vote for independence they

:24:06.:24:13.

will have to apply for European membership and they may not get it

:24:14.:24:18.

if it is vetoed by other members. What he didn't say is that no state

:24:19.:24:22.

of the European Union have indicated they would veto Scottish

:24:23.:24:29.

membership. The Spanish foreign minister has. They have said that if

:24:30.:24:34.

there is an agreed process within the UK that Scotland becomes an

:24:35.:24:38.

independent country, then Spain has got nothing to say about the issue.

:24:39.:24:43.

That indicates to me clearly that the Spanish government will have no

:24:44.:24:47.

stance to take on the Scottish membership of the European Union

:24:48.:24:51.

because it is important that Scotland is already part of the

:24:52.:24:56.

European Union, our laws are compatible with the European Union

:24:57.:25:01.

and we play our part. The only threat to Scotland's participation

:25:02.:25:06.

in the European Union is the potential in/out referendum that

:25:07.:25:16.

David Cameron wants to have in 2017. It has not been a great week for

:25:17.:25:21.

you, has it? Everything you seem to want, the monetary union, that has

:25:22.:25:28.

been blown out of the water by the Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel

:25:29.:25:31.

Barroso has said you will have to reapply to the European Union, it

:25:32.:25:38.

has not been a good week. You will follow the debate closely, and the

:25:39.:25:45.

Sunday newspapers are full about the backlash taking place within

:25:46.:25:48.

Scotland at the bullying remarks of the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is

:25:49.:25:57.

Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well now? He is making an indirect

:25:58.:26:01.

comparison between Scotland and Kosovo. If you vote for independence

:26:02.:26:08.

and you do have two apply again to join, if you do get in it solves

:26:09.:26:14.

your currency problem because you will have to accept the euro. We

:26:15.:26:20.

have set out an option on the currency arrangements which would be

:26:21.:26:29.

to establish the currency union. You would have to adopt the euro. That's

:26:30.:26:35.

not rate because you have to be part of the exchange-rate mechanism for

:26:36.:26:39.

two years before you can apply for membership and an independent

:26:40.:26:42.

Scotland has no intention of signing up to the exchange rate mechanism or

:26:43.:26:48.

the single currency. We are concentrating on setting out our

:26:49.:26:52.

arguments for maintaining the pound sterling, which is in the interests

:26:53.:26:55.

of Scotland and the UK. Thank you sterling, which is in the interests

:26:56.:27:03.

for joining us this morning. This week's least surprising news

:27:04.:27:06.

was that Labour won the safe seat of Wythenshawe and Sale East in a

:27:07.:27:09.

by-election, following the death of the MP Paul Goggins. With the result

:27:10.:27:12.

so predictable, all eyes were on whether this would be the sixth time

:27:13.:27:16.

this parliament that UKIP would come second. And whether they'd chip away

:27:17.:27:18.

at Labour's vote, not just the Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed

:27:19.:27:23.

up all night to find out what it all meant. Forget the hype. Forget the

:27:24.:27:33.

theorising. And yes - everyone has a theory. UKIP are learning from us.

:27:34.:27:44.

What have they picked up from you? To be silly. Thanks to this week's

:27:45.:27:50.

by-election we've got some hard evidence in paper form that helps

:27:51.:27:53.

answer the question: How are UKIP doing? Turns out the answer is well,

:27:54.:27:59.

but not well enough to beat Labour. I'm therefore claim -- declare that

:28:00.:28:09.

Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have come second and increased their

:28:10.:28:12.

share of the vote quite significantly. But their performance

:28:13.:28:15.

isn't as good as their performances in some of the other by-elections

:28:16.:28:17.

this parliament. Just don't suggest to them that their bandwagon has

:28:18.:28:26.

ground to a halt. A week ago you'd told me you were going to win, what

:28:27.:28:34.

happened? No, I didn't, I said I wanted to win. My mistake. How are

:28:35.:28:39.

happened? No, I didn't, I said I you feeling? It is a Labour

:28:40.:28:43.

stronghold, we always knew it was going to be a fight. Labour were

:28:44.:28:50.

running scared of letting us present our arguments. UKIP's campaign in

:28:51.:28:53.

Wythenshawe didn't point to the right but to the left, with leaflets

:28:54.:28:57.

that branded Labour as a party of millionaires who didn't care about

:28:58.:29:00.

the working class. It wasn't a winning strategy but it did help

:29:01.:29:04.

them beat the Tories who focused on dog mess and potholes instead.

:29:05.:29:09.

Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford from Manchester Uni thinks they

:29:10.:29:14.

could be on the right track. He's analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP

:29:15.:29:18.

voters for a new book, which could confound the received wisdom about

:29:19.:29:29.

the party. The common media image of the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy

:29:30.:29:36.

faced golf club and -- member from the south-east of the UK and many

:29:37.:29:41.

UKIP activists do resemble that stereotype to some extent, they do

:29:42.:29:46.

pick up a lot of activists from the Conservative party, but UKIP voters

:29:47.:29:51.

are older, more working class, more likely to live in Northern, urban

:29:52.:29:56.

areas, and they are much more anti-system than anti-EU. And

:29:57.:30:00.

they're precisely the voters that the Tory MP David Mowat needs if

:30:01.:30:04.

he's to hold on to his narrow majority in the constituency just

:30:05.:30:17.

down the road. Do you have a UKIP strategy in your seat? Our UKIP

:30:18.:30:20.

strategy is to point out that if they want a referendum on if they

:30:21.:30:24.

want to be in the EU or not, there is one way to get it, for the

:30:25.:30:27.

Conservatives to form their next government and for me to be their

:30:28.:30:32.

MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy what they want? I'm not sure it will

:30:33.:30:39.

be accidental. People need to realise that if Ed Miliband is the

:30:40.:30:42.

Prime Minister, there will be no referendum on the EU and UKIP may

:30:43.:30:47.

have made their point but they would not have got their referendum. Over

:30:48.:30:55.

at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up time. Not helping, Nigel? I had

:30:56.:31:03.

major surgery on the 19th of November and I am still weak as a

:31:04.:31:07.

kitten. I can barely lift a pint with my right hand, it is as serious

:31:08.:31:11.

as that. The answer is, Carreon, chaps, you're all doing a very good

:31:12.:31:16.

job. There will be carrying on to the European elections in May, which

:31:17.:31:20.

will provide more evidence of if the UKIP and wagon is powering on or if

:31:21.:31:26.

it is just parked. -- bandwagon. With me now is the Conservative MEP

:31:27.:31:31.

Vicky fraud and UKIP director of medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He

:31:32.:31:35.

will also be a candidate in the upcoming European elections. You

:31:36.:31:37.

came second in Manchester, but it was not a close second. -- Vicky

:31:38.:31:44.

Ford. There is nothing that is a game changer? I think it is very

:31:45.:31:50.

unusual for any insurgent party, like the liberals used to be, to

:31:51.:31:53.

actually win a safe seat of the opposition. Those shocks, going back

:31:54.:31:57.

to I think we did well. Though it

:31:58.:32:25.

wasn't a breakthrough for UKIP, it pushed you into third place and

:32:26.:32:28.

should be increasing irrelevance of the Tories in the North. Tory minded

:32:29.:32:33.

voters in the North Sea more inclined to vote for UKIP than you.

:32:34.:32:42.

By-elections are by-elections. You need to look at them all and learn

:32:43.:32:48.

the lessons from them. We need to look forward to the European

:32:49.:32:52.

elections in 2014. That is in May this year. When we have a chance to

:32:53.:32:58.

really grab this change in Europe, grab a change that Jose Manuel

:32:59.:33:01.

Barroso has been talking about. Why, you don't worry that, particularly

:33:02.:33:08.

in the North, if people want to vote against Labour, your supporters are

:33:09.:33:13.

drifting to UKIP? People voted UKIP in a European

:33:14.:33:16.

election. They bought that because they won't change. The problem is,

:33:17.:33:23.

Patrick's party have had MEPs since 1989 and they cannot deliver that

:33:24.:33:28.

change. The cat because they don't have seats in Westminster. The only

:33:29.:33:34.

way we are going to get the change we want in Europe is to have this

:33:35.:33:36.

referendum and have the renegotiation. What do you say to

:33:37.:33:44.

that? Get real. The Conservative Party have not won a parliamentary

:33:45.:33:50.

majority in 22 years. John Major failed in 1997. The only way you

:33:51.:33:53.

will get the referendum, if that what motivates you, and I assume

:33:54.:33:57.

with UKIP that is what motivates you, is if there is a majority

:33:58.:34:03.

Conservative Government in the next election. And you could well stop

:34:04.:34:08.

that from happening. I don't accept that. Just as we forced David

:34:09.:34:13.

Cameron into a referendum pledge he had ruled out making before, and I

:34:14.:34:19.

was there in PMQs when his MPs asked him and he said a referendum would

:34:20.:34:22.

not be in the national interest because he did not want to leave,

:34:23.:34:26.

our electoral success force that pledge and by winning the European

:34:27.:34:29.

elections this may we can force Ed Miliband, against his will, to match

:34:30.:34:33.

that pledge and then whatever formulation there is, we will get a

:34:34.:34:40.

referendum. The Labour MPs in Westminster have just had the

:34:41.:34:42.

chance, and the Labour peers have had the chance to say, we want the

:34:43.:34:46.

referendum. The refused to do it. The only way you will get a

:34:47.:34:50.

renegotiation, a change in our relationship with Europe and in a

:34:51.:34:54.

referendum is to have a Conservative Government. Please, UKIP, will you

:34:55.:34:59.

stop pretending that you can deliver because you do not deliver. We

:35:00.:35:04.

already have delivered. We forced David Cameron to give a pledge for a

:35:05.:35:09.

referendum he did not want to give. We will know by next election if you

:35:10.:35:13.

are right about Ed Miliband. He will have to tell us. If Mr Miliband

:35:14.:35:17.

holds out against giving you a referendum, what will you do? There

:35:18.:35:22.

are loads of reasons for people to vote UKIP. I have asked the David

:35:23.:35:28.

Cameron and he firmly intends to lead the campaign to stay in. We

:35:29.:35:35.

want to be out of the European Union. The Tories will say, vote

:35:36.:35:39.

UKIP, get Ed Miliband. What do you say to that? We have probably maxed

:35:40.:35:45.

out the Tory vote we are going to get because David Cameron has been

:35:46.:35:49.

incredibly helpful and sending them in our direction. What we are

:35:50.:35:56.

concentrating on is those blue-collar, disenchanted former

:35:57.:35:58.

Labour voters and more and more of them are coming towards us. On our

:35:59.:36:03.

messages on things like immigration and law and order. We want to

:36:04.:36:07.

renegotiate our relationship with Europe. We need people who will turn

:36:08.:36:12.

up to renegotiate with was a Manuel Barroso. So that is a Prime Minister

:36:13.:36:16.

who is not Ed Miliband, but David Cameron.

:36:17.:36:19.

who is not Ed Miliband, but David UKIP MEPs do not turn up in

:36:20.:36:24.

Brussels. I have heard that said before. If Francois Hollande is as

:36:25.:36:30.

good as his word and says there's been no substantial renegotiation

:36:31.:36:33.

and no treaty change this side of 2017, when he is up for real action,

:36:34.:36:40.

what will you do? He is a French socialist Prime Minister. He is the

:36:41.:36:49.

one you have to negotiate with. You need to bring something with

:36:50.:36:52.

substance back from these negotiations in Europe. People will

:36:53.:36:57.

vote to leave. This is on a knife edge. The Prime Minister has been

:36:58.:37:02.

very clear. Will you vote to leave? Unless we get what we want on a

:37:03.:37:08.

renegotiation, we will leave us. Let's see what the deal on the table

:37:09.:37:15.

is on 2017. If the status quo is what we have today, I would want to

:37:16.:37:19.

leave. But I would want to renegotiate. Thank you. For those in

:37:20.:37:25.

the East of England, you will be seeing even more of Patrick. You are

:37:26.:37:34.

watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday

:37:35.:37:38.

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: The President of the

:37:39.:37:40.

European Commission, Jose Manuel Barosso, pours cold water on easy

:37:41.:37:44.

entry to the EU entry for an independent Scotland. It is a new

:37:45.:37:49.

country and so I believe it is going to be extremely difficult, if not

:37:50.:37:55.

impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries,

:37:56.:37:58.

getting the agreement. After the Chancellor rules out a

:37:59.:38:02.

currency union post independence. Can the Scottish Government reassure

:38:03.:38:08.

voters over our money? And is Cosla in need of some DIY?

:38:09.:38:11.

Cracks appear over funding for our local authorities.

:38:12.:38:18.

Good morning. It has been a week to remember in the independence

:38:19.:38:22.

campaign. The president of the European Commission has said it

:38:23.:38:25.

would be very difficult if not impossible for an independent

:38:26.:38:27.

Scotland to become a member of the European Union. That marks are

:38:28.:38:32.

causing a storm as the row over the future of the pound in an

:38:33.:38:35.

independent Scotland rumbles on. I will address both issues in an

:38:36.:38:38.

interview with the Finance Secretary in a moment, then we will speak to

:38:39.:38:42.

the Better Together leader Alistair Darling. First, Andrew Kerr reports

:38:43.:38:45.

on Whitehall's intervention in the debate on currency union.

:38:46.:38:50.

It is a new country. I believe it is going to be extremely difficult if

:38:51.:38:55.

not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries,

:38:56.:39:02.

getting the agreement of the rest, but it is now for the British people

:39:03.:39:05.

and the Scottish people in their referendum to decide about their

:39:06.:39:12.

future. That was Jose Manuel Barroso speaking earlier this morning when

:39:13.:39:16.

he was talking about the prospects of an independent Scotland's

:39:17.:39:18.

membership of the year. It is an issue we will debate with John

:39:19.:39:22.

Swinney and also we will be talking to the leader of the Better Together

:39:23.:39:27.

campaign, Alistair Darling. They will both join me in a moment and we

:39:28.:39:30.

will have a chat. In a meantime, let's go back to that report from

:39:31.:39:35.

Andrew Kerr on Westminster's intervention in the currency debate.

:39:36.:39:45.

The West Minister is established and enters the fray. Sir Nicholas

:39:46.:39:48.

MacPherson, the permanent Secretary to the Treasury, has had his advice

:39:49.:39:52.

against a currency union published. He is a powerful Whitehall mandarin.

:39:53.:40:00.

Just like Sir Humphrey. I am not happy with this report. We will

:40:01.:40:04.

redraft it for you. The Minister in this case the Chancellor was

:40:05.:40:09.

certainly happy with the memo. It knocked down any hope of a currency

:40:10.:40:15.

union. On the basis of the official advice that I have received from

:40:16.:40:18.

double servants in the Treasury, and our advice is, they would not

:40:19.:40:24.

recommend a currency union to the Government of the continuing UK. --

:40:25.:40:28.

the official advice I have received from the civil servants. They have,

:40:29.:40:37.

as we know, been very reluctant to have the pound involved in the

:40:38.:40:42.

currency union and many of those people feel vindicated by the

:40:43.:40:45.

problem is that the euro has had in recent years and they are pleased

:40:46.:40:49.

that the UK never joined it. So I think that there is clearly a lot of

:40:50.:40:58.

genuine scepticism about the wisdom of formal currency unions between

:40:59.:41:00.

sovereign states and that is reflected in that letter. In the TV

:41:01.:41:06.

studios, the First Minister was then forced to present a calm and

:41:07.:41:09.

reasoned approach to the metaphorical rug being pulled from

:41:10.:41:14.

under his feet. The Yes campaign has to explain our case in reasonable

:41:15.:41:19.

fashion and see whether logic is in the low back on our side. -- whether

:41:20.:41:29.

logic is on our side. It is also in the interest of England as well. A

:41:30.:41:33.

strong hand that has been shown by the UK Government, but what happened

:41:34.:41:38.

to the pledge not to renegotiate? Ben Thomson from reform Scotland is

:41:39.:41:41.

arguing for more powers for Scotland. He watched the

:41:42.:41:45.

Chancellor's speech and is anxious for more detail. If they are

:41:46.:41:51.

starting to be this clear, but they will be more clear about some of the

:41:52.:41:54.

other things. About what a noble will mean. -- what a No vote will

:41:55.:42:03.

mean. At this week has shown us is the hard negotiations that could

:42:04.:42:06.

take place between the two sides. Alex Salmond has warned that

:42:07.:42:09.

Scotland would not take on its share of the estimated ?1.6 trillion of UK

:42:10.:42:15.

national debt come a possible Independence Day. Unless he can get

:42:16.:42:18.

a slice of shared assets including the pound. But Westminster could

:42:19.:42:24.

retaliate by frustrating Scotland's attempt to enter international

:42:25.:42:29.

institutions. In terms of using international organisations to get

:42:30.:42:31.

Scotland in line, it is much more likely to be EU. EU membership

:42:32.:42:38.

because it will be so political when it comes to negotiating and Scotland

:42:39.:42:44.

will have a relatively weak hand in negotiations for EU membership.

:42:45.:42:47.

Because so many EU countries are against Scottish independence. That

:42:48.:42:51.

would be the institutional leveraged that would most likely be used to

:42:52.:42:56.

sort of make Scotland accept a certain term that it didn't. I

:42:57.:43:01.

wouldn't think NATO membership would be useful. That is for the

:43:02.:43:05.

long-term. In the event of a Yes vote. In the short-term, it will be

:43:06.:43:09.

interesting see how the polls react, whether Scots feel the pound

:43:10.:43:14.

in their pocket is under threat or if they feel bullied by Westminster

:43:15.:43:20.

politicians. I am joined now from Dundee by the

:43:21.:43:23.

Finance Secretary. Good afternoon to you. Let's start with the comments

:43:24.:43:30.

from Jose Manuel Barroso this morning on the BBC. He said it will

:43:31.:43:33.

be very difficult if not impossible to get agreement from all other EU

:43:34.:43:36.

members for Scottish membership. That is definitive. His remarks are

:43:37.:43:43.

pretty preposterous because you didn't quote his full interview. He

:43:44.:43:47.

suggested that Scotland was in the same position as Kosovo. Kosovo is

:43:48.:43:52.

not a member of the European Union. Scotland has been part of the

:43:53.:43:57.

European Union for 40 years. I think that very significant difference of

:43:58.:44:00.

the fact that we have been participants in the European Union,

:44:01.:44:03.

are legal framework is compatible with the European Union, we have

:44:04.:44:07.

been willing partners and participants in the European Union,

:44:08.:44:10.

ensures we are in a fundamentally different position from the one

:44:11.:44:15.

articulated by him. He didn't compare Scotland to Kosovo. He used

:44:16.:44:19.

that and it is an example where Spain said it would not want to go

:44:20.:44:22.

down the road of allowing EU to recognise Kosovo's independence.

:44:23.:44:26.

That is the position he believes Spain may well add up if Ford a vote

:44:27.:44:33.

on Scottish membership. -- may well adopt if offered a vote. What has

:44:34.:44:39.

been said is that if the arrangements going into the unity

:44:40.:44:42.

kingdom for the referendum essentially agreed arrangements

:44:43.:44:45.

between Scotland and the rest of the UK, as epitomised by the Edinburgh

:44:46.:44:50.

Agreement, signed in October 2012 between the First Minister and the

:44:51.:44:54.

Prime Minister. The Spanish Foreign Minister is saying, if you have got

:44:55.:44:58.

an agreed process in the UK by which Scotland can become independent,

:44:59.:45:02.

Spain has got no opinion on the issue of the outcome of the

:45:03.:45:06.

referendum. But it will have an opinion on whether it agrees to let

:45:07.:45:14.

Scotland into the EU. The Spanish Foreign Minister has accepted that

:45:15.:45:16.

the United Kingdom is taking an approach which leads to an agreed

:45:17.:45:21.

independent settlement between Scotland and the rest of the mighty

:45:22.:45:27.

kingdom. He can veto EU membership for Scotland. As a consequence, it

:45:28.:45:31.

enables us to establish the platform by which Scotland becomes a member

:45:32.:45:37.

of the European Union. Not a single state in the European Union has made

:45:38.:45:40.

any remark about the fact that it would be in any way likely to beat

:45:41.:45:43.

all Scottish membership of the bee you. I can see why they would want

:45:44.:45:49.

to do that. -- membership of the EU. The history of the EU has been about

:45:50.:45:54.

expansion, growth, involving new members, bringing more countries

:45:55.:45:57.

into the fold of the European Union. Scotland has been a willing and

:45:58.:46:03.

active participant of the EU for 40 years. Let's move on to the currency

:46:04.:46:09.

union. Have you looked again at the different options available to an

:46:10.:46:11.

independent Scotland with regards to currency? The fiscal commission

:46:12.:46:16.

produced a report for us which had a range of different options that were

:46:17.:46:18.

available to an independent Scotland. What we did as the

:46:19.:46:24.

Government, and it is the right thing to do, was to listen to

:46:25.:46:27.

international expert opening in and to conclude what was the right thing

:46:28.:46:30.

in the interests of the people of Scotland. And the preferred option

:46:31.:46:34.

of the fiscal commission was to establish a currency zone where

:46:35.:46:37.

Scotland and the rest of the UK would continue to use the same

:46:38.:46:41.

currency. I understand that is your preferred option. But are the other

:46:42.:46:46.

option Jew have looked at workable? Of course. The fiscal commission

:46:47.:46:51.

made that clear. -- the other options you have looked at workable?

:46:52.:47:02.

In relation to arrangements around about fiscal sustainability, it is

:47:03.:47:08.

possible. So there is no reason not to join the euro other than a

:47:09.:47:12.

political decision? It would involve a Scottish Government taking a

:47:13.:47:15.

number of decisions not least of which would be to voluntarily join

:47:16.:47:19.

the exchange rate mechanism of the European Union and we have no

:47:20.:47:22.

intention of going down that route. We have decided that that is not one

:47:23.:47:26.

we would pursue. My point about the arrangements that the fiscal

:47:27.:47:29.

commission set out was that they put in place an integrated package of

:47:30.:47:33.

measures and the Chancellor would have been better served if he had

:47:34.:47:36.

actually looked at the integrated package of measures that the fiscal

:47:37.:47:39.

commission set out, because it was very similar to the ground covered

:47:40.:47:43.

by the Bank of England governor when he came to Scotland a couple of

:47:44.:47:46.

weeks ago and set out the arrangement by which it would be

:47:47.:47:50.

practical and possible to arrange a currency union between Scotland and

:47:51.:47:54.

the rest of the UK. And the type of considerations that would have to be

:47:55.:47:58.

in place to make that work. The chat a lot has taken the same position

:47:59.:48:01.

you have taken on the euro. You have said the euro is workable but as a

:48:02.:48:04.

Government you do not want to go down that road. Isn't the Chancellor

:48:05.:48:09.

making the exact same point to you? A currency union could be workable,

:48:10.:48:12.

but politically the Chancellor is saying now. The governor of the Bank

:48:13.:48:16.

of England said it was perfectly workable to be completely

:48:17.:48:18.

arrangements for a currency union, but what he said and which I accept

:48:19.:48:23.

is that there are a number of additional factors you have to put

:48:24.:48:26.

in place to ensure that can work and many of these factors, which the

:48:27.:48:31.

substance of the report brought forward by the fiscal commission,

:48:32.:48:34.

which covered the whole range of different issues around the

:48:35.:48:35.

integration of the financial services market, and the issues

:48:36.:48:41.

around fiscal sustainability. Is your position that the Chancellor is

:48:42.:48:45.

bluffing? That is my position. What the Chancellor did not do on

:48:46.:48:49.

Wednesday and I think he did not do this in relation to a question asked

:48:50.:48:53.

by one of your colleagues, was set out the negative implications for

:48:54.:48:56.

the rest of the 80 kingdom of his refusal to go down the route of the

:48:57.:49:00.

currency union. -- the rest of the United Kingdom. He is saying I will

:49:01.:49:04.

lumber you with ?500 million worth of additional transaction costs if I

:49:05.:49:08.

for Scotland not to use the pound sterling. What that attacks is the

:49:09.:49:13.

canonical well-being of the rest of the United Kingdom and it makes

:49:14.:49:16.

absolutely no sense. -- is the economic well-being. Scotland's oil

:49:17.:49:24.

and gas resources, our whiskey resources, would not be part of the

:49:25.:49:27.

balance of payments of the sterling zone. So the Chancellor has got to

:49:28.:49:31.

think much more widely about the implications of this issue for the

:49:32.:49:33.

rest are beginning to kingdom and come to a sensible position. His

:49:34.:49:38.

contribution on Thursday could and now we have been described as

:49:39.:49:41.

sensible or measured. Isn't the problem for you that it is not just

:49:42.:49:45.

the Unionist whose your position is wrong, it is also several members of

:49:46.:49:48.

the Yes Scotland campaign, such as Colin Fox. Patrick Harvie of the

:49:49.:49:54.

Green Party. They all believe in independent Scotland should have its

:49:55.:49:57.

own independent currency. Why are they wrong? That is their position.

:49:58.:50:02.

They are entitled to argue for their position. What I must do is explain

:50:03.:50:06.

the position of the two Scottish Government -- of the Scottish

:50:07.:50:11.

Government that has been formed by taking the opinions of international

:50:12.:50:16.

economist who have made a six and shall -- who have made a substantial

:50:17.:50:20.

contribution to the debate in Scotland. For the Chancellor to say

:50:21.:50:31.

on one hand he would not negotiate and then to come to Scotland with

:50:32.:50:38.

the diktats has caused the problem in this country that Scotland will

:50:39.:50:43.

not be pushed around by a UK Chancellor. Other people are saying

:50:44.:50:55.

a different option should be looked at, isn't that a form of bullying in

:50:56.:51:03.

itself? It is not. We have to put forward a comprehensive and

:51:04.:51:08.

considered proposal about how Scotland can become an independent

:51:09.:51:13.

country. We have worked hard for years to put that together, it is

:51:14.:51:18.

what is published, it represents the solid work we have put in place to

:51:19.:51:24.

make sure Scotland has a workable plan to become an independent

:51:25.:51:28.

country. I'd micro-thank you very much. I am joined by Alistair

:51:29.:51:32.

Darling of the Better Together campaign. Jose Manuel Barroso is

:51:33.:51:41.

saying it will be difficult for an independent Scotland to regain

:51:42.:51:47.

independence because of countries like Spain. The consensus of

:51:48.:51:56.

international opinion is that Scotland would have to reapply to

:51:57.:52:04.

enter Europe. Councils in the European Union are anything but

:52:05.:52:08.

straightforward. In any discussion you have you are always up against

:52:09.:52:12.

the fact you have countries arguing their own corner, sometimes things

:52:13.:52:17.

which have nothing to do with the subject in hand. The objectives of

:52:18.:52:23.

countries like Spain for example which are very weary about

:52:24.:52:26.

recognising any new countries, it would be anything but plain sailing.

:52:27.:52:41.

-- wheelie. -- wary. Of course it is an advantage of the European Union

:52:42.:52:47.

to have members within it but what Jose Manuel Barroso was saying today

:52:48.:52:53.

is that the discussions that will take place will be anything but

:52:54.:52:58.

plain sailing. I can see them dragging on for years. It takes an

:52:59.:53:04.

inordinately long time to agree everything. Your view would not have

:53:05.:53:10.

that. This would be the first time a country was breaking away from an

:53:11.:53:13.

existing member state and then applying to get back in again. Alex

:53:14.:53:19.

Salmond said he had an opinion that we would get in with no questions

:53:20.:53:28.

asked but you are now being asked to trust this same person who said he

:53:29.:53:33.

had a legal opinion when he did not. You are being asked to believe him

:53:34.:53:39.

over a large number of people in the European Union who say it is

:53:40.:53:44.

anything but plain sailing and you have to get 28 member states to

:53:45.:53:49.

agree to the proposition which many of them would find difficult. Taking

:53:50.:53:55.

the politics out of it, it is the currency union the logical position

:53:56.:54:01.

foreign independent Scotland? Now, I do not think it would stack up for

:54:02.:54:05.

Scotland or the rest of the United Kingdom. You need three ingredients,

:54:06.:54:11.

the banking union whereby in effect the rest of the UK which would be

:54:12.:54:16.

ten times larger than Scotland would have to underwrite Scotland's

:54:17.:54:20.

banking system. Secondly, you need the system for large sums of money

:54:21.:54:26.

moving it from those areas doing well to those that are perhaps

:54:27.:54:32.

struggling. They may be difficult but they are doable? You need a

:54:33.:54:37.

banking union, a facility to transfer money and both sides to

:54:38.:54:46.

agree the others tax and spending. What you see here is something that,

:54:47.:54:52.

if you have a currency union it takes two countries to agree to

:54:53.:54:55.

something, there is no law that says they must do it. I foresee

:54:56.:55:04.

difficulties. At the moment we have a single currency, the pound, it

:55:05.:55:09.

works because we have a political union, and economic union, we can

:55:10.:55:14.

transfer money around from richer too put pads and so on. We are being

:55:15.:55:20.

asked to give up that pound what we now need to do is find a replacement

:55:21.:55:26.

for the pound, something that Alex Salmond cannot or will not tell us.

:55:27.:55:32.

Do you think there can be any negotiation between the Scottish

:55:33.:55:37.

Government and Mark Carney going forward? It is a political decision

:55:38.:55:43.

to be taken by the rest of the UK and Scotland in the event we vote

:55:44.:55:50.

for a break in September. The bank of England can only exist because

:55:51.:55:55.

the government stands behind it. I know that full well from my

:55:56.:56:01.

experience. The bank of England can only fix interest rates. In terms of

:56:02.:56:05.

the money it spends, that comes at the moment from UK Government. It is

:56:06.:56:10.

a political decision at the end of the day. The plans for a currency

:56:11.:56:16.

union in economic terms simply do not stand up. I'd macro there is an

:56:17.:56:22.

economic place for the rest of the UK from what the Chancellor has

:56:23.:56:31.

said. We sell more goods and services to the European Union than

:56:32.:56:35.

anyone else in the world but we are not joining the euro. We sell a lot

:56:36.:56:41.

of goods and services to America but we are not joining the dollar. Scots

:56:42.:56:47.

stand to lose far more from independence than firms south of the

:56:48.:56:52.

border. At the moment they can sell any rare any market of 63 million

:56:53.:56:57.

people because of the economic and political union. The Nationalists

:56:58.:57:04.

want to break that up and are now saying let's invent something to

:57:05.:57:08.

patch up the difficulties. Quite clearly a currency union is off of

:57:09.:57:13.

the table, we need to know what a replacement for the pound would be.

:57:14.:57:19.

It is not good enough for us to trust the Nationalists to simply say

:57:20.:57:24.

trust us, we are right and the rest of the world is wrong. If this is

:57:25.:57:33.

your negotiating position... I am not negotiating, I am simply

:57:34.:57:39.

pointing out what is what. Should we get a common position from the

:57:40.:57:45.

parties and Better Together on other issues like whether or not the rest

:57:46.:57:50.

of the UK would support Scottish entry into the EU for instance? The

:57:51.:57:57.

Edinburgh agreement was an agreement to hold the referendum and abide by

:57:58.:58:02.

the outcome. Whichever way Scotland votes there is no going back on

:58:03.:58:09.

that. It is not very constructive to say we are not going to negotiate on

:58:10.:58:15.

this big issue. Surely on an issue like the currency, the single

:58:16.:58:19.

biggest issue which will affect people's mortgages, savings, how

:58:20.:58:25.

much they will be on loans, isn't it better to know now whether or not

:58:26.:58:30.

there would be a currency union? The fact of the matter is they will not

:58:31.:58:35.

be. Will be be other common positions? It must be better to note

:58:36.:58:41.

the common positions. Can we expect a common position on the situation

:58:42.:58:47.

as regards Scotland's EU membership, issued energy for

:58:48.:58:53.

existence? With Europe, whatever position the UK or parts of the UK

:58:54.:58:58.

were to take, the matter is not in our hands, it is in the hands of 27

:58:59.:59:04.

other member states who have their own internal politics and jockeying

:59:05.:59:07.

for position on a whole range of interests. It does not have to be

:59:08.:59:14.

about the merits of Scotland, it can be about the price of all of all of

:59:15.:59:20.

oil, agriculture policy and so on. Both sides are agreed that whatever

:59:21.:59:24.

the result in September, there is no going back on it, no second chances,

:59:25.:59:31.

we abide by it. To a large extent Scotland will be throwing itself on

:59:32.:59:36.

the mercy of the decisions taken by 27 other member states who, frankly,

:59:37.:59:42.

have their own battles to fight. There are so many uncertainties

:59:43.:59:47.

here. We have a massive amount of risk and uncertainty which will cost

:59:48.:59:51.

lives and ones we do not need to take. A row over the weekends are

:59:52.:59:59.

funded is threatening to split local government down the middle. Several

:00:00.:00:04.

local government say they are not getting their fair share from the

:00:05.:00:08.

Scottish Government. This has brought COSLA to boiling point. Two

:00:09.:00:12.

big councils have said they planned to leave if things do not change. As

:00:13.:00:17.

a local government correspondent has been finding out, some Labour

:00:18.:00:22.

councillors say DIY is needed to fix COSLA or they will leave. It is the

:00:23.:00:27.

time of year when councillors have been deciding what to spend cash on.

:00:28.:00:34.

Times are hard for all councils just now but most still find money to

:00:35.:00:40.

support their local priorities. In Renfrewshire last week's local

:00:41.:00:45.

budget helped the scheme for this business to grow. But there were

:00:46.:00:52.

many hard choices to balance the books. Renfrewshire gets ?300

:00:53.:00:58.

million per year from the Scottish Government but it says it should be

:00:59.:01:04.

getting far more. Renfrewshire I does not get a fair share from the

:01:05.:01:08.

Scottish Government, 18 million less than we should be on the average

:01:09.:01:12.

council when they should be getting more because we have the our fair

:01:13.:01:16.

share of problems in terms of deprivation. Councils get 80p of

:01:17.:01:25.

every pound they spend. The minister responsible for councils used to

:01:26.:01:32.

read Renfrewshire himself and has limited sympathy with his successors

:01:33.:01:38.

claims. We all argue for the indicators that best suit us which

:01:39.:01:44.

is natural. There are some rural areas with a geeky thing population

:01:45.:01:50.

and others with an increasing one. The current system has served us

:01:51.:02:00.

well over the past number of years. This disagreement is so serious it

:02:01.:02:05.

threatens to rupture COSLA, the Lizzie Power struggle, Labour leads

:02:06.:02:11.

16 of the 32 councils and gets COSLA most of its cash. -- their is a

:02:12.:02:19.

power struggle. Coors light cannot take a stand on issues that divide

:02:20.:02:24.

councils like the funding deal. -- COSLA. We are a huge contributor to

:02:25.:02:35.

growth and a huge contributor to the economy. We need to see that

:02:36.:02:44.

reflected at a Scottish level. Aberdeen and Renfrewshire are

:02:45.:02:47.

expected to be joined by more Labour councils. These other areas are also

:02:48.:02:55.

set to decide whether to quit. Dumfries and Galloway has also

:02:56.:03:00.

separately said it may leave. Some fear a big split in the body that is

:03:01.:03:06.

meant to help them all will ultimately do little good. If COSLA

:03:07.:03:11.

did not exist then councils would want to invent it. I do not think it

:03:12.:03:22.

is good enough for a few councils not to get their way and to walk

:03:23.:03:27.

away, I think that would leave them in a poor place. Critics believe it

:03:28.:03:35.

could sometimes take a stronger line on controversial issues and if those

:03:36.:03:39.

Labour critics do not get the repeal is they want, there could be a real

:03:40.:03:44.

split in the collective voice of local government. You are watching

:03:45.:03:50.

Sunday Politics in Scotland now let's join Andrew Kerr for the news.

:03:51.:04:01.

Good afternoon. The president of The European Commission has said it

:04:02.:04:07.

would be extremely difficult if not impossible for an independent

:04:08.:04:10.

Scotland to join the EU. Jose Manuel Barroso said Scotland would have to

:04:11.:04:19.

apply for membership. It would need agreement from the member states.

:04:20.:04:27.

The battle over the future of the pound in an independent Scotland is

:04:28.:04:31.

continuing this lunchtime. John Swinney said the Chancellor was

:04:32.:04:35.

bluffing in his refusal to countenance a sterling currency

:04:36.:04:37.

union postindependence ad called for talks with the Treasury to look at

:04:38.:04:41.

the issue. But the leader of the Better Together campaign said a

:04:42.:04:45.

currency union would not stack up for Scotland or the United Kingdom.

:04:46.:04:48.

Team GB's men curlers have lost their penultimate match of the round

:04:49.:04:51.

robin stage at the Winter Olympics, going down 7-6 to Norway. The defeat

:04:52.:04:56.

for skip David Murdoch and his team leaves them on five wins and three

:04:57.:05:05.

defeats. That is what happens with these games. A lot of these games

:05:06.:05:12.

are 50-50. Unfortunately we missed a couple of crucial shots today to get

:05:13.:05:15.

in front and start dominating them. Now let's take a look at the weather

:05:16.:05:16.

with Gillian. Now let's

:05:17.:05:20.

A cracking afternoon to come for most of us as a ridge of high

:05:21.:05:23.

pressure delivers blue skies and sunshine. A few showers across

:05:24.:05:28.

western Scotland and more frequent showers over the far north of the

:05:29.:05:31.

mainland and the Northern Isles, accompanied by strong winds and snow

:05:32.:05:36.

on the hills. For most places, crisp sunshine. Around 60 sea sand with

:05:37.:05:41.

light winds that will not feel bad in the sunshine. -- around six

:05:42.:05:49.

Celsius. A risk of ice. Back to Gary.

:05:50.:05:54.

Thank you. In a moment we will discuss the big events coming up in

:05:55.:05:58.

Holyrood but let's take a look back at the beach in 60 seconds. Scots

:05:59.:06:08.

are less concerned about immigration than those south of the border

:06:09.:06:12.

according to a new survey. However, 58% of respondents here still said

:06:13.:06:16.

they favoured few new arrivals. The majority favour less immigration

:06:17.:06:22.

rather than more. But they are less likely to take that view than people

:06:23.:06:28.

in England and Wales. ScottishPower announced it would be doubling the

:06:29.:06:31.

capacity of its hydroelectric power plants in the north of Scotland.

:06:32.:06:36.

Drivers are facing a bumpy ride at the moment and it emerged this week

:06:37.:06:39.

that Scottish councils are spending more than ?1600 per day compensating

:06:40.:06:44.

those whose cars have been damaged by potholes. Plans to appoint a

:06:45.:06:51.

named Guardian for a Scottish child was opposed by the Church of

:06:52.:06:54.

Scotland, saying the idea would diminish the role of parents. MSPs

:06:55.:07:02.

will turn to Hollywood this week for the final stage of the debate.

:07:03.:07:15.

-- Hollywood. -- Holyrood. Let's have a look at the papers

:07:16.:07:19.

ahead of the week. Joining me this week is polling meal. Good

:07:20.:07:24.

afternoon. They start with the remarks from Jose Manuel Barroso.

:07:25.:07:28.

Clearly a significant intervention, is it going to be a setback to the

:07:29.:07:32.

Yes campaign? To have him say that it would be difficult if not

:07:33.:07:36.

impossible for an independent Scotland to secure membership of the

:07:37.:07:39.

European Union? It is not a significant contribution. It is

:07:40.:07:43.

nonsense. His credibility just goes down and down. The one thing being

:07:44.:07:47.

you is is an expansionist organisation. They have been

:07:48.:07:51.

desperate to take all kinds of countries in and we are in a

:07:52.:07:53.

desperate to take all kinds of countries in and situation, a stable

:07:54.:07:59.

Christie, a country with major resources and controlling a huge

:08:00.:08:02.

maritime territory. A country that would be a net contributor and he

:08:03.:08:08.

said no. There is argument is four but there are countries with vested

:08:09.:08:12.

interests, secessionists concerns they might actually try and put the

:08:13.:08:16.

brakes on this. Alistair Darling made the point that membership might

:08:17.:08:19.

happen but it could take a long time. The Spanish Prime Minister

:08:20.:08:24.

will have to and third to his fishermen who are going to be so

:08:25.:08:28.

delighted if they even temporarily have Scotland out of the EU and

:08:29.:08:33.

Scotland has to say, you are not fishing in our territory. We have a

:08:34.:08:37.

very strong bargaining position. And the noise coming out right now is

:08:38.:08:44.

just politics in being you. Do we have to see this in the context of

:08:45.:08:48.

Jose Manuel Barroso being a politician, some SNP politicians are

:08:49.:08:55.

saying that he is playing politics. I think it is clear now that

:08:56.:08:59.

Scotland, and the new member states, would have to apply. So at least the

:09:00.:09:03.

voters know there would have to be an application, and on what terms?

:09:04.:09:08.

The statement today, I can understand why he is saying it could

:09:09.:09:13.

be difficult. Because we know that politics will get played in Europe,

:09:14.:09:16.

although it is inconceivable in the long run that Scotland would not be

:09:17.:09:19.

a member. The question is, how long would it take? Perhaps he have to

:09:20.:09:24.

and so the question as to why he is saying that it is impossible for

:09:25.:09:28.

Scotland to be a member. -- perhaps he has to. The voters will have to

:09:29.:09:33.

accept it will not happen immediately. There may be protracted

:09:34.:09:37.

negotiation that it is up to other EU member states to make that

:09:38.:09:42.

decision. Because voters will be aware that all member states must

:09:43.:09:45.

agree for Scotland to be part of the EU. I am perspective on it is that,

:09:46.:09:56.

in the long run, an independent Scotland would join the EU. But how

:09:57.:10:01.

long would it take? Would it be palatable to most people? Let's talk

:10:02.:10:06.

about currency. Given interviews today, it will dominate next week as

:10:07.:10:10.

well. Alex Salmond is making a speech to business leaders in

:10:11.:10:14.

Aberdeen tomorrow. A couple of newspaper today are focusing on this

:10:15.:10:17.

as well. The Sunday Herald is one of them. Is this, in your view,

:10:18.:10:24.

bullying from Westminster? Or are Westminster politicians right to

:10:25.:10:28.

say, this is our line in the sand? It is entirely predictable. The

:10:29.:10:32.

British establishment is determined to hold on to Scotland for a very

:10:33.:10:39.

good use and is -- for a very good reasons. We have many resources. We

:10:40.:10:42.

are aware of the key their nuclear bombs. They will do and say anything

:10:43.:10:47.

to try to get a No vote. So you do not believe them when they say it is

:10:48.:10:53.

in the best interests of the rest of the UK for the UK to stay together?

:10:54.:10:57.

Now. It would not be my first option. -- Calmac. The UK has

:10:58.:11:08.

serious debt problems. It has lots of difficulties coming down the

:11:09.:11:14.

line. -- no. It is saying it is going to sacrifice this balance of

:11:15.:11:18.

payments contribution? Is it that a lament of Scotland's contribution

:11:19.:11:22.

towards debt? We have got the Sunday Times as well today. They say they

:11:23.:11:25.

have spoken to some business leaders or at least the economic and social

:11:26.:11:28.

research Council has, and some of those business leaders are worried

:11:29.:11:32.

about lack of certainty in the event of a Yes vote. One or two have

:11:33.:11:34.

talked about leaving Scotland. We have heard the stories before. Does

:11:35.:11:41.

this class as scaremongering? I think that both sides, the yes and

:11:42.:11:46.

no campaign, are aware that the currency is the most critical issue

:11:47.:11:49.

for voters. So you will see this more. Is it a bluff or not? And the

:11:50.:11:57.

former Labour politician, are you comfortable with all of the

:11:58.:12:03.

pronouncements you saw this week? It starts with the Governor of the Bank

:12:04.:12:06.

of England's declaration that it is not impossible but the terms of the

:12:07.:12:10.

currency union are quite strong. It is clear to me that even if the SNP

:12:11.:12:13.

were to win the argument about currency, they will have to concede

:12:14.:12:17.

a great deal of sovereignty to get it. And what in the white paper are

:12:18.:12:21.

they prepared to negotiate to get it? We have politicians saying we

:12:22.:12:26.

are not prepared to take the risk based on this assessment.

:12:27.:12:30.

Therefore, I think the onus is on the Yes campaign took provides

:12:31.:12:34.

uncertainty around this. The problem for the Yes campaign in the weeks

:12:35.:12:38.

and months to come is that there is no unity in their side. Around what

:12:39.:12:41.

the alternative currency would be. So, of course, as an individual, I

:12:42.:12:47.

would want the best for Scotland whatever Scotland voted for. I think

:12:48.:12:51.

voters, hardly anyone has talked about the voter in all of this

:12:52.:12:56.

debate about currency. We need to know the implications, what is the

:12:57.:13:00.

currency and what is the alternative currency if the SNP did not win the

:13:01.:13:04.

argument and Howard that impact people's pensions? From the point of

:13:05.:13:10.

view of ordinary people, yes. -- Howard that impact people's

:13:11.:13:14.

pensions? The options would be either using the pound but not in

:13:15.:13:17.

the currency union, or having a Scottish pound which is pegged to

:13:18.:13:23.

sterling, which means interchanges the same. That is as it applies to

:13:24.:13:28.

the individual. What you will find is that, irrespective of what comes

:13:29.:13:35.

from the Government, you will find more work on deciding which is the

:13:36.:13:41.

preferred plan B, or for some people it might be the plan A, coming from

:13:42.:13:48.

people on the yes side. Not necessarily SNP ministers? I don't

:13:49.:13:55.

know. That would answer your question. When you talk about

:13:56.:14:00.

negotiation and the onus being on the SNP, is it right that the

:14:01.:14:03.

Westminster Government should say, seven months out, here is our line

:14:04.:14:09.

in the sand? Voters once uncertainty around the debate from both sides.

:14:10.:14:14.

It is going to be negotiating, isn't it? It is going to be two

:14:15.:14:22.

negotiations. I am sorry, we have to leave things there. There is a lot

:14:23.:14:27.

to talk about, but not enough time. That is all from us this week. I

:14:28.:14:31.

will be back at the same time next week. Goodbye.

:14:32.:14:37.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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