16/02/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


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Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be extremely


difficult if not impossible for an independent Scotland to join the


European Union. So says the president of the European


Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant development in the


independence debate. It is our top story. He has got the power to bring


travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow joins us for the


interview. Now the by-election, another second place for UKIP. Just


how big a threat does Nigel Farage's party pose for the Tory


party? And coming up on Sunday Politics


Scotland: The President of the European Commission says an


independent Scotland would find it "difficult if not impossible" to


gain approval from other member states for EU entry.


political panel in the business. The twits will be as incessant and


probably as welcome as the recent rain. A significant new development


in the debate over Scottish independence this morning, the


President of the European Commission, President Jose Manuel


Barroso, has confirmed what the Nationalists have long denied, that


an independent Scotland would have to reply to join the European Union


as a new member, that it would require the agreement of all 28


member states and that would be, in his words, extremely difficult, if


not impossible. In case there is a new country, a new state coming out


of a current member state, it will have to apply and, this is very


important, the application to the union would have to be approved by


all of the other member states. Countries like Spain, with the


secessionist issues they have? I don't want to interfere in your


democratic discussion here, but of course, it will be extremely


difficult to get the approval of all of the other member states, to have


a new member coming in from one member state. We have seen that that


Spain has been opposing even the recognition, for instance, so it is


a similar state. It is a new country. I believe it is great to be


externally difficult, if not impossible. Well, he says he doesn't


want to interfere, but he has just dropped a medium-sized explosive


into the debate on Scottish independence? A huge story. Alex


Salmond must be wondering what is going to go wrong next. His pitch to


the Scottish people is based on two things, the currency union with


England and the rest of the United Kingdom, which was blown apart last


week, and this morning, his claims that Scotland would automatically


get into the European Union has been dynamited. He's not only saying that


they would have to apply, it is also saying it might be impossible to get


the agreement of all 28 members to allow Scotland in. That's even more


significant than the application? The reference to Spain is


interesting, we talk about Catalan independence, an economic and active


area that Spain does not want to be independent. About five other


countries are blocking Kosovo's accession to the EU. There is no


reason they would want to encourage the secessionist in their country by


letting Scotland do the same. If Scotland does have to apply, and it


does get in, it solves the currency problem because all new members have


to accept the Euro? At the moment, the SNP are rejecting that quite


strongly. What an interesting intervention today. However, I know


that those arguing that Scotland should stay in the union are worried


that the polls are tightening. A lot of these interventions, parents care


arguments, they don't look like they are convincing the Scottish people.


We haven't had any polls yet? We haven't, but we have since the


currency debate was reignited in the last few weeks and it shows the


polls tightening slightly. I think Alistair Darling's campaign would


prefer to be much further ahead at the stage. They are worried that


these technical commandments are not having much sway. Are the polls


tightening slightly? They could be within the statistical margin for


error. They are, but not much. Alex Salmond's main page is one of


reassurance. He wants to say you can vote for independence, a pound in


the pocket will be the same as before and you will still be a


member of the European Union. In the last three or four matter days, both


of those claims have been blown apart. Angus MacNeil has already


told BBC Radio 5 Live that the remarks are nonsense and he is


playing more politics. We hope to speak to the SNP's finance minister,


John Swinney, a little bit later in the programme. It is not just the


constant rain that London commuters have had to deal with. There was


also a strike on the tube that disrupted the travel of millions. A


second stoppage was on the cards, but it was called off at the last


minute. The leader of the biggest


underground workers union, the RMT, is Bob Crow, who has led his members


into 24 strikes on the tube since 2005, as well as disputes on the


national rail network. Under his leadership, the union's membership


has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to more than 80,000, at a time when


union membership overall has been shrinking. The current dispute has


seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris Johnson over the mayor's plans to


close tube station ticket offices. The 48-hour stoppage at the


beginning of this month is estimated to have cost the London economy ?100


million. The two sides have agreed a truce, for now, but Mr Crow has


threatened further action if the mayor imposes his changes.


Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday interview.


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You have suspended the strike for the


moment. What will it take to call it off entirely? Want to know first of


all wider booking office has to close. The Mayor of London made it


quite clear in his election programme that the booking offices


would remain open. It was strange, really, because Ken Livingstone


wanted to close them down and the mayor thought it was popular to keep


them open and put in his campaign to keep them open. However, we have not


the news figures. We are being told only 3% of people use the booking


offices. That's not true. In research done, if somebody does to a


booking office with somebody sitting there and asks for a ticket of less


than ?5, they are not allowed to sell them a ticket, it is madness.


Do you use the ticket office? When it is open, yes. You said to ITV


that he didn't. I don't know what I said to ITV, I don't know what time


people use them, sometimes they are open and sometimes they are closed.


People make out that these ticket office staff are people that sit


behind barriers like a newsagent. I'm not knocking a newsagent,


however, these people were the same people treated like Lions when they


were helping people named in the terrorist incidents, taking them out


of the panels. Suddenly they are lazy people that sit in ticket


offices. My understanding is that the people would come from behind


and be out and about now. It is the management wants to run the


underground without ticket offices, isn't that their prerogative? They


are paid to manage, not you, not your members, they are the managers?


Managers are there to manage, and we want good managers. But we've got


some really bad managers that are not looking at the railway as a


whole. This is a successful industry, not an industry in


decline, one of the most successful in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million


people a day. All of the forecast is or it will move to 3.6 million per


day. The mayor wants to run services on a Friday and Saturday night. We


are not opposed to that. However, it does not make sense that if more


people are going to be using the tube on Friday and Saturday, coming


home at two o'clock three o'clock in the morning, a lot of people


drinking, a lot of people not dragging, why take 1000 people of


the network that come to the aid of people that are looking to people? I


want to show you this picture. This is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I


think it is. I was trying to copy you. You deserve this break because


you have done a fantastic job for your members. Yes, I don't see what


that has got to do with it. Let's get every editor of the daily


newspapers and see where they go on their holidays, I would like to


know. What I choose to do... I'm not attacking you for doing that...


You've got a picture up there, I've got to say, why don't they go and


follow Boris Johnson when he was away on holiday, when the riots were


taking place in London, and he refused to come back? Why don't they


go and view the editors of newspapers, where they go on


holiday? Why do they look at you when you go on holiday? They


sometimes do, actually. The basic pay of a tube driver will soon be


?52,000. Ticket office workers are already earning over ?35,000. Never


mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, or membership by your house for what


you have done for them? When you look at the papers this morning, I


see that Wayne Rooney is going to get a ?70 million deal over the next


four deals. I see NHS doctors are getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot


of people that do a lot of people that, in my opinion, don't do


anything for society. The top paid people in this country should be


doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, we live in a jungle. If you are not


strong, the bosses will walk all over you. The reason why we got good


terms and conditions is because we fought for them. The reality is, all


of these three political parties, liberals, Tories and Labour, they


have all put no programme that to defend working people. So we have to


do it on our own. And that is why you have done such a great job for


your members and why union membership has been rising, people


want to be part of a successful operation. But it has come at a cost


for less well-paid workers, who travel on the cheap? If everyone


believes if London Underground tube workers take a pay freeze they are


going to redistribute the money to the rest of the workers that work on


the cheap... But the people that travel on the tube, let's look at


some of them, they are the ones that suffer from your strike action. The


starting salary of a cheap driver now, ?48,000. The starting salary


for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22,000 for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a


teacher starting out. As your members have spread, they have had


to live through 24 strikes in 13 years to push up your members


wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The have put a pay freeze on by


conservatives and liberals. The police constables, so have the


teachers. We have had the ability to go and fight. The reality is, at the


end of the day, as I have said before, no one is going to put up


the cause for workers. Not one single party in parliament are


fighting the cause for workers. They all support privatisation, they all


support keeping the anti-trade union laws, they all support illegal wars


around the world. Unless they have a fighting trade union, our members


pay would be as low as some others. You said we could not care less if


we have 1 million strikes. But these people, the lower paid people who


travel on the tube, who need it as an essential service, they care. Of


course they care, I've said before that I apologise to the troubling


public for the dispute that took place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It


two to tango. If the boy never imposed terms and conditions on us


against our will... But you've got great terms and conditions! But it's


a constant battle, they are trying to change them. Drivers are having


their pay going up to ?50,000. You said they are making it worse, it is


going up. They are trying to make things worse for workers. You said


at the start of the interview that the tube strike cost ?100 million in


two days. It means that when members go to work for two days it is worth


?100 million. That demonstrates what they are worth. Only a fighting


trade union can defend workers out there. Your members should enjoy


what you have got for them, because it's not going to last, is it?


Technology will change the whole way your business operates. As Karl Marx


says, you said I was a mixture of Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and


the Sopranos. I thought that was quite funny... The Karl Marx part of


it, the only thing that is constant is change. We have been crying out


for new technology. But for who? To put people on the dole, so they


can't do anything and do anything for society, or technology so


everybody benefits, lower fares, better service and better terms and


conditions for the workers. But you have made Labour so expensive on the


underground that management now has a huge incentive to substitute


technology for Labour. And that's what it's going to do, it is closing


the ticket offices and very soon, starting in 2016, the driverless


trains coming. What I am saying is that your members should enjoy this


because it's not going to last. Driverless trains are not coming


in, it is not safe. We have them in Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it


is not safe? These are new lines that have been built so that when it


breaks down, people can get out of the tunnel. Would you want to be


stuck on a summers day on the Northern line? A pregnant woman who


cannot get off the train? Absolute panic that takes place, the reality


is simple, it is a nonsense. It's not going to happen because it is a


Victorian network. On Docklands railway for example it is driverless


but when the train breaks down, it is above ground on a very small


section. All of these other cities managed to have it. You remind me


about Henry Ford in the 1930s when he said, you see that robot over


their, he cannot buy a car. All sorts of new jobs are being created


all the time in other areas. Come back to the ticket offices, not many


people use the ticket offices any more, what is wrong with getting the


stuff out of the ticket office on to the concourses, meeting and


greeting, helping disabled people and tourists and making it a better


service? They can do more on the concourse than they can in the


ticket office. Andrew, he took the decision to close down every single


ticket office. You cannot compare for example Chesham with the likes


of Heathrow. Are you telling me people are going to be on a long


transatlantic flight, arrived at Heathrow and cannot get a ticket.


The stuff will be redeployed on the concourse. The simple problem is


that it is not just about the booking office, it is about people


having a visual. If you are partially sighted, you cannot use


the machines. If British is not your first language, you cannot use the


offices. How many languages do your members speak? I don't know, I


struggle with English. The machines can speak many different languages.


They are dehumanising things. You phone the bank, all you hear is,


press one for this, two for that. People want to hear it human being


and what makes the London Underground so precious is that


people want to see people. Having well-dressed, motivated people out


on the concourse, what part of that don't you like? They will be on the


concourse and they will have machines. The fact is that London


Underground did a risk assessment of closing down their booking offices


and it is clear that if you are disabled, if you are partially


sighted, London Underground becomes more dangerous. You are posing the


closing of ticket offices, opposing driverless trains, when you opposed


to the Oyster card when it came in? No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal


with it. It is not the only way. They should supplement the staff and


the job. If more people used the London Underground system, you want


more staff to deal with them. Let's look at your mandate to strike. Of


your members who work on the Tube, only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30%


voted for the strike, so 70% actually didn't vote to strike of


your members, but the strike went ahead. Isn't it right to have a


higher threshold before you can cause this disruption? It would be


lovely if everyone voted but the Tories took that away. We used to


have ballots at the workplace. What I'm trying to say to you is that we


used to have a ballot box at the workplace and the turnouts were


higher. The Tories believe that if they can have a secret ballot where


ballot papers went to people's home addresses, where they could be


persuaded by the bosses, votes would be different. Let's go back to the


workplace ballot because you get a bigger turnout. Will the RMT


re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I have no intention to. We got


expelled from the Labour Party. But you will give some money to the


Labour councils? Those that support our basic policies get money, we


don't give money directly to MPs, we give it to constituencies. Are you


going to stand for re-election in 2016? I might do, I might not. You


haven't decided yet? No, but more than likely I will do. And will you


stand again as an anti-EU candidate? Yes, I am standing in London, and


right across, completely different to UKIP's policies. They are


anti-European, they believe all of the faults of Europe are down to the


immigrants. We are anti-European Union. If London Underground is as


badly run as you think, why don't you run for mayor? That is down the


road, it has not come up yet. I'm not ruling anything out. I'm not


ruling out getting your job on the Sunday Politics. You have got to


retire as well, you have got to put your feet up. I will get you to


renegotiate my package. Shall we go on strike first? If I could have


your wages, I would have two trips to Rio every year. Good luck. And if


you're in the London region they'll have more on the Tube strike later


in the programme. Let's get back to those comments from Jose Manuel


Barroso, and reaction to these comments from John Swinney. Scottish


Nationalists denied all along you would have to reapply, we have now


heard it without any caveats, you will and you might not get in. I


think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments were preposterous this morning. He


compared the situation to the one in Kosovo. Britain is the member,


Scotland is not the member. If you go independent, you will have to


reapply, he says. All of the arrangements we have in place are


compatible with the workings of the European Union because we have been


part of it for 40 years. The propositions we put forward work


about essentially negotiating the continuity of Scotland's membership


of the European Union and that position has now been explained and


debated and discussed and reinforced by comments made by experts. We are


talking about the president of the European commission and we have


spoken to him since he gave that interview on the BBC this morning,


it was an intervention that he made that he wanted to lay out that


Scotland should be in no doubt that if they vote for independence they


will have to apply for European membership and they may not get it


if it is vetoed by other members. What he didn't say is that no state


of the European Union have indicated they would veto Scottish


membership. The Spanish foreign minister has. They have said that if


there is an agreed process within the UK that Scotland becomes an


independent country, then Spain has got nothing to say about the issue.


That indicates to me clearly that the Spanish government will have no


stance to take on the Scottish membership of the European Union


because it is important that Scotland is already part of the


European Union, our laws are compatible with the European Union


and we play our part. The only threat to Scotland's participation


in the European Union is the potential in/out referendum that


David Cameron wants to have in 2017. It has not been a great week for


you, has it? Everything you seem to want, the monetary union, that has


been blown out of the water by the Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel


Barroso has said you will have to reapply to the European Union, it


has not been a good week. You will follow the debate closely, and the


Sunday newspapers are full about the backlash taking place within


Scotland at the bullying remarks of the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is


Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well now? He is making an indirect


comparison between Scotland and Kosovo. If you vote for independence


and you do have two apply again to join, if you do get in it solves


your currency problem because you will have to accept the euro. We


have set out an option on the currency arrangements which would be


to establish the currency union. You would have to adopt the euro. That's


not rate because you have to be part of the exchange-rate mechanism for


two years before you can apply for membership and an independent


Scotland has no intention of signing up to the exchange rate mechanism or


the single currency. We are concentrating on setting out our


arguments for maintaining the pound sterling, which is in the interests


of Scotland and the UK. Thank you sterling, which is in the interests


for joining us this morning. This week's least surprising news


was that Labour won the safe seat of Wythenshawe and Sale East in a


by-election, following the death of the MP Paul Goggins. With the result


so predictable, all eyes were on whether this would be the sixth time


this parliament that UKIP would come second. And whether they'd chip away


at Labour's vote, not just the Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed


up all night to find out what it all meant. Forget the hype. Forget the


theorising. And yes - everyone has a theory. UKIP are learning from us.


What have they picked up from you? To be silly. Thanks to this week's


by-election we've got some hard evidence in paper form that helps


answer the question: How are UKIP doing? Turns out the answer is well,


but not well enough to beat Labour. I'm therefore claim -- declare that


Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have come second and increased their


share of the vote quite significantly. But their performance


isn't as good as their performances in some of the other by-elections


this parliament. Just don't suggest to them that their bandwagon has


ground to a halt. A week ago you'd told me you were going to win, what


happened? No, I didn't, I said I wanted to win. My mistake. How are


happened? No, I didn't, I said I you feeling? It is a Labour


stronghold, we always knew it was going to be a fight. Labour were


running scared of letting us present our arguments. UKIP's campaign in


Wythenshawe didn't point to the right but to the left, with leaflets


that branded Labour as a party of millionaires who didn't care about


the working class. It wasn't a winning strategy but it did help


them beat the Tories who focused on dog mess and potholes instead.


Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford from Manchester Uni thinks they


could be on the right track. He's analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP


voters for a new book, which could confound the received wisdom about


the party. The common media image of the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy


faced golf club and -- member from the south-east of the UK and many


UKIP activists do resemble that stereotype to some extent, they do


pick up a lot of activists from the Conservative party, but UKIP voters


are older, more working class, more likely to live in Northern, urban


areas, and they are much more anti-system than anti-EU. And


they're precisely the voters that the Tory MP David Mowat needs if


he's to hold on to his narrow majority in the constituency just


down the road. Do you have a UKIP strategy in your seat? Our UKIP


strategy is to point out that if they want a referendum on if they


want to be in the EU or not, there is one way to get it, for the


Conservatives to form their next government and for me to be their


MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy what they want? I'm not sure it will


be accidental. People need to realise that if Ed Miliband is the


Prime Minister, there will be no referendum on the EU and UKIP may


have made their point but they would not have got their referendum. Over


at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up time. Not helping, Nigel? I had


major surgery on the 19th of November and I am still weak as a


kitten. I can barely lift a pint with my right hand, it is as serious


as that. The answer is, Carreon, chaps, you're all doing a very good


job. There will be carrying on to the European elections in May, which


will provide more evidence of if the UKIP and wagon is powering on or if


it is just parked. -- bandwagon. With me now is the Conservative MEP


Vicky fraud and UKIP director of medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He


will also be a candidate in the upcoming European elections. You


came second in Manchester, but it was not a close second. -- Vicky


Ford. There is nothing that is a game changer? I think it is very


unusual for any insurgent party, like the liberals used to be, to


actually win a safe seat of the opposition. Those shocks, going back


to I think we did well. Though it


wasn't a breakthrough for UKIP, it pushed you into third place and


should be increasing irrelevance of the Tories in the North. Tory minded


voters in the North Sea more inclined to vote for UKIP than you.


By-elections are by-elections. You need to look at them all and learn


the lessons from them. We need to look forward to the European


elections in 2014. That is in May this year. When we have a chance to


really grab this change in Europe, grab a change that Jose Manuel


Barroso has been talking about. Why, you don't worry that, particularly


in the North, if people want to vote against Labour, your supporters are


drifting to UKIP? People voted UKIP in a European


election. They bought that because they won't change. The problem is,


Patrick's party have had MEPs since 1989 and they cannot deliver that


change. The cat because they don't have seats in Westminster. The only


way we are going to get the change we want in Europe is to have this


referendum and have the renegotiation. What do you say to


that? Get real. The Conservative Party have not won a parliamentary


majority in 22 years. John Major failed in 1997. The only way you


will get the referendum, if that what motivates you, and I assume


with UKIP that is what motivates you, is if there is a majority


Conservative Government in the next election. And you could well stop


that from happening. I don't accept that. Just as we forced David


Cameron into a referendum pledge he had ruled out making before, and I


was there in PMQs when his MPs asked him and he said a referendum would


not be in the national interest because he did not want to leave,


our electoral success force that pledge and by winning the European


elections this may we can force Ed Miliband, against his will, to match


that pledge and then whatever formulation there is, we will get a


referendum. The Labour MPs in Westminster have just had the


chance, and the Labour peers have had the chance to say, we want the


referendum. The refused to do it. The only way you will get a


renegotiation, a change in our relationship with Europe and in a


referendum is to have a Conservative Government. Please, UKIP, will you


stop pretending that you can deliver because you do not deliver. We


already have delivered. We forced David Cameron to give a pledge for a


referendum he did not want to give. We will know by next election if you


are right about Ed Miliband. He will have to tell us. If Mr Miliband


holds out against giving you a referendum, what will you do? There


are loads of reasons for people to vote UKIP. I have asked the David


Cameron and he firmly intends to lead the campaign to stay in. We


want to be out of the European Union. The Tories will say, vote


UKIP, get Ed Miliband. What do you say to that? We have probably maxed


out the Tory vote we are going to get because David Cameron has been


incredibly helpful and sending them in our direction. What we are


concentrating on is those blue-collar, disenchanted former


Labour voters and more and more of them are coming towards us. On our


messages on things like immigration and law and order. We want to


renegotiate our relationship with Europe. We need people who will turn


up to renegotiate with was a Manuel Barroso. So that is a Prime Minister


who is not Ed Miliband, but David Cameron.


who is not Ed Miliband, but David UKIP MEPs do not turn up in


Brussels. I have heard that said before. If Francois Hollande is as


good as his word and says there's been no substantial renegotiation


and no treaty change this side of 2017, when he is up for real action,


what will you do? He is a French socialist Prime Minister. He is the


one you have to negotiate with. You need to bring something with


substance back from these negotiations in Europe. People will


vote to leave. This is on a knife edge. The Prime Minister has been


very clear. Will you vote to leave? Unless we get what we want on a


renegotiation, we will leave us. Let's see what the deal on the table


is on 2017. If the status quo is what we have today, I would want to


leave. But I would want to renegotiate. Thank you. For those in


the East of England, you will be seeing even more of Patrick. You are


watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday


Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: The President of the


European Commission, Jose Manuel Barosso, pours cold water on easy


entry to the EU entry for an independent Scotland. It is a new


country and so I believe it is going to be extremely difficult, if not


impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries,


getting the agreement. After the Chancellor rules out a


currency union post independence. Can the Scottish Government reassure


voters over our money? And is Cosla in need of some DIY?


Cracks appear over funding for our local authorities.


Good morning. It has been a week to remember in the independence


campaign. The president of the European Commission has said it


would be very difficult if not impossible for an independent


Scotland to become a member of the European Union. That marks are


causing a storm as the row over the future of the pound in an


independent Scotland rumbles on. I will address both issues in an


interview with the Finance Secretary in a moment, then we will speak to


the Better Together leader Alistair Darling. First, Andrew Kerr reports


on Whitehall's intervention in the debate on currency union.


It is a new country. I believe it is going to be extremely difficult if


not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries,


getting the agreement of the rest, but it is now for the British people


and the Scottish people in their referendum to decide about their


future. That was Jose Manuel Barroso speaking earlier this morning when


he was talking about the prospects of an independent Scotland's


membership of the year. It is an issue we will debate with John


Swinney and also we will be talking to the leader of the Better Together


campaign, Alistair Darling. They will both join me in a moment and we


will have a chat. In a meantime, let's go back to that report from


Andrew Kerr on Westminster's intervention in the currency debate.


The West Minister is established and enters the fray. Sir Nicholas


MacPherson, the permanent Secretary to the Treasury, has had his advice


against a currency union published. He is a powerful Whitehall mandarin.


Just like Sir Humphrey. I am not happy with this report. We will


redraft it for you. The Minister in this case the Chancellor was


certainly happy with the memo. It knocked down any hope of a currency


union. On the basis of the official advice that I have received from


double servants in the Treasury, and our advice is, they would not


recommend a currency union to the Government of the continuing UK. --


the official advice I have received from the civil servants. They have,


as we know, been very reluctant to have the pound involved in the


currency union and many of those people feel vindicated by the


problem is that the euro has had in recent years and they are pleased


that the UK never joined it. So I think that there is clearly a lot of


genuine scepticism about the wisdom of formal currency unions between


sovereign states and that is reflected in that letter. In the TV


studios, the First Minister was then forced to present a calm and


reasoned approach to the metaphorical rug being pulled from


under his feet. The Yes campaign has to explain our case in reasonable


fashion and see whether logic is in the low back on our side. -- whether


logic is on our side. It is also in the interest of England as well. A


strong hand that has been shown by the UK Government, but what happened


to the pledge not to renegotiate? Ben Thomson from reform Scotland is


arguing for more powers for Scotland. He watched the


Chancellor's speech and is anxious for more detail. If they are


starting to be this clear, but they will be more clear about some of the


other things. About what a noble will mean. -- what a No vote will


mean. At this week has shown us is the hard negotiations that could


take place between the two sides. Alex Salmond has warned that


Scotland would not take on its share of the estimated ?1.6 trillion of UK


national debt come a possible Independence Day. Unless he can get


a slice of shared assets including the pound. But Westminster could


retaliate by frustrating Scotland's attempt to enter international


institutions. In terms of using international organisations to get


Scotland in line, it is much more likely to be EU. EU membership


because it will be so political when it comes to negotiating and Scotland


will have a relatively weak hand in negotiations for EU membership.


Because so many EU countries are against Scottish independence. That


would be the institutional leveraged that would most likely be used to


sort of make Scotland accept a certain term that it didn't. I


wouldn't think NATO membership would be useful. That is for the


long-term. In the event of a Yes vote. In the short-term, it will be


interesting see how the polls react, whether Scots feel the pound


in their pocket is under threat or if they feel bullied by Westminster


politicians. I am joined now from Dundee by the


Finance Secretary. Good afternoon to you. Let's start with the comments


from Jose Manuel Barroso this morning on the BBC. He said it will


be very difficult if not impossible to get agreement from all other EU


members for Scottish membership. That is definitive. His remarks are


pretty preposterous because you didn't quote his full interview. He


suggested that Scotland was in the same position as Kosovo. Kosovo is


not a member of the European Union. Scotland has been part of the


European Union for 40 years. I think that very significant difference of


the fact that we have been participants in the European Union,


are legal framework is compatible with the European Union, we have


been willing partners and participants in the European Union,


ensures we are in a fundamentally different position from the one


articulated by him. He didn't compare Scotland to Kosovo. He used


that and it is an example where Spain said it would not want to go


down the road of allowing EU to recognise Kosovo's independence.


That is the position he believes Spain may well add up if Ford a vote


on Scottish membership. -- may well adopt if offered a vote. What has


been said is that if the arrangements going into the unity


kingdom for the referendum essentially agreed arrangements


between Scotland and the rest of the UK, as epitomised by the Edinburgh


Agreement, signed in October 2012 between the First Minister and the


Prime Minister. The Spanish Foreign Minister is saying, if you have got


an agreed process in the UK by which Scotland can become independent,


Spain has got no opinion on the issue of the outcome of the


referendum. But it will have an opinion on whether it agrees to let


Scotland into the EU. The Spanish Foreign Minister has accepted that


the United Kingdom is taking an approach which leads to an agreed


independent settlement between Scotland and the rest of the mighty


kingdom. He can veto EU membership for Scotland. As a consequence, it


enables us to establish the platform by which Scotland becomes a member


of the European Union. Not a single state in the European Union has made


any remark about the fact that it would be in any way likely to beat


all Scottish membership of the bee you. I can see why they would want


to do that. -- membership of the EU. The history of the EU has been about


expansion, growth, involving new members, bringing more countries


into the fold of the European Union. Scotland has been a willing and


active participant of the EU for 40 years. Let's move on to the currency


union. Have you looked again at the different options available to an


independent Scotland with regards to currency? The fiscal commission


produced a report for us which had a range of different options that were


available to an independent Scotland. What we did as the


Government, and it is the right thing to do, was to listen to


international expert opening in and to conclude what was the right thing


in the interests of the people of Scotland. And the preferred option


of the fiscal commission was to establish a currency zone where


Scotland and the rest of the UK would continue to use the same


currency. I understand that is your preferred option. But are the other


option Jew have looked at workable? Of course. The fiscal commission


made that clear. -- the other options you have looked at workable?


In relation to arrangements around about fiscal sustainability, it is


possible. So there is no reason not to join the euro other than a


political decision? It would involve a Scottish Government taking a


number of decisions not least of which would be to voluntarily join


the exchange rate mechanism of the European Union and we have no


intention of going down that route. We have decided that that is not one


we would pursue. My point about the arrangements that the fiscal


commission set out was that they put in place an integrated package of


measures and the Chancellor would have been better served if he had


actually looked at the integrated package of measures that the fiscal


commission set out, because it was very similar to the ground covered


by the Bank of England governor when he came to Scotland a couple of


weeks ago and set out the arrangement by which it would be


practical and possible to arrange a currency union between Scotland and


the rest of the UK. And the type of considerations that would have to be


in place to make that work. The chat a lot has taken the same position


you have taken on the euro. You have said the euro is workable but as a


Government you do not want to go down that road. Isn't the Chancellor


making the exact same point to you? A currency union could be workable,


but politically the Chancellor is saying now. The governor of the Bank


of England said it was perfectly workable to be completely


arrangements for a currency union, but what he said and which I accept


is that there are a number of additional factors you have to put


in place to ensure that can work and many of these factors, which the


substance of the report brought forward by the fiscal commission,


which covered the whole range of different issues around the


integration of the financial services market, and the issues


around fiscal sustainability. Is your position that the Chancellor is


bluffing? That is my position. What the Chancellor did not do on


Wednesday and I think he did not do this in relation to a question asked


by one of your colleagues, was set out the negative implications for


the rest of the 80 kingdom of his refusal to go down the route of the


currency union. -- the rest of the United Kingdom. He is saying I will


lumber you with ?500 million worth of additional transaction costs if I


for Scotland not to use the pound sterling. What that attacks is the


canonical well-being of the rest of the United Kingdom and it makes


absolutely no sense. -- is the economic well-being. Scotland's oil


and gas resources, our whiskey resources, would not be part of the


balance of payments of the sterling zone. So the Chancellor has got to


think much more widely about the implications of this issue for the


rest are beginning to kingdom and come to a sensible position. His


contribution on Thursday could and now we have been described as


sensible or measured. Isn't the problem for you that it is not just


the Unionist whose your position is wrong, it is also several members of


the Yes Scotland campaign, such as Colin Fox. Patrick Harvie of the


Green Party. They all believe in independent Scotland should have its


own independent currency. Why are they wrong? That is their position.


They are entitled to argue for their position. What I must do is explain


the position of the two Scottish Government -- of the Scottish


Government that has been formed by taking the opinions of international


economist who have made a six and shall -- who have made a substantial


contribution to the debate in Scotland. For the Chancellor to say


on one hand he would not negotiate and then to come to Scotland with


the diktats has caused the problem in this country that Scotland will


not be pushed around by a UK Chancellor. Other people are saying


a different option should be looked at, isn't that a form of bullying in


itself? It is not. We have to put forward a comprehensive and


considered proposal about how Scotland can become an independent


country. We have worked hard for years to put that together, it is


what is published, it represents the solid work we have put in place to


make sure Scotland has a workable plan to become an independent


country. I'd micro-thank you very much. I am joined by Alistair


Darling of the Better Together campaign. Jose Manuel Barroso is


saying it will be difficult for an independent Scotland to regain


independence because of countries like Spain. The consensus of


international opinion is that Scotland would have to reapply to


enter Europe. Councils in the European Union are anything but


straightforward. In any discussion you have you are always up against


the fact you have countries arguing their own corner, sometimes things


which have nothing to do with the subject in hand. The objectives of


countries like Spain for example which are very weary about


recognising any new countries, it would be anything but plain sailing.


-- wheelie. -- wary. Of course it is an advantage of the European Union


to have members within it but what Jose Manuel Barroso was saying today


is that the discussions that will take place will be anything but


plain sailing. I can see them dragging on for years. It takes an


inordinately long time to agree everything. Your view would not have


that. This would be the first time a country was breaking away from an


existing member state and then applying to get back in again. Alex


Salmond said he had an opinion that we would get in with no questions


asked but you are now being asked to trust this same person who said he


had a legal opinion when he did not. You are being asked to believe him


over a large number of people in the European Union who say it is


anything but plain sailing and you have to get 28 member states to


agree to the proposition which many of them would find difficult. Taking


the politics out of it, it is the currency union the logical position


foreign independent Scotland? Now, I do not think it would stack up for


Scotland or the rest of the United Kingdom. You need three ingredients,


the banking union whereby in effect the rest of the UK which would be


ten times larger than Scotland would have to underwrite Scotland's


banking system. Secondly, you need the system for large sums of money


moving it from those areas doing well to those that are perhaps


struggling. They may be difficult but they are doable? You need a


banking union, a facility to transfer money and both sides to


agree the others tax and spending. What you see here is something that,


if you have a currency union it takes two countries to agree to


something, there is no law that says they must do it. I foresee


difficulties. At the moment we have a single currency, the pound, it


works because we have a political union, and economic union, we can


transfer money around from richer too put pads and so on. We are being


asked to give up that pound what we now need to do is find a replacement


for the pound, something that Alex Salmond cannot or will not tell us.


Do you think there can be any negotiation between the Scottish


Government and Mark Carney going forward? It is a political decision


to be taken by the rest of the UK and Scotland in the event we vote


for a break in September. The bank of England can only exist because


the government stands behind it. I know that full well from my


experience. The bank of England can only fix interest rates. In terms of


the money it spends, that comes at the moment from UK Government. It is


a political decision at the end of the day. The plans for a currency


union in economic terms simply do not stand up. I'd macro there is an


economic place for the rest of the UK from what the Chancellor has


said. We sell more goods and services to the European Union than


anyone else in the world but we are not joining the euro. We sell a lot


of goods and services to America but we are not joining the dollar. Scots


stand to lose far more from independence than firms south of the


border. At the moment they can sell any rare any market of 63 million


people because of the economic and political union. The Nationalists


want to break that up and are now saying let's invent something to


patch up the difficulties. Quite clearly a currency union is off of


the table, we need to know what a replacement for the pound would be.


It is not good enough for us to trust the Nationalists to simply say


trust us, we are right and the rest of the world is wrong. If this is


your negotiating position... I am not negotiating, I am simply


pointing out what is what. Should we get a common position from the


parties and Better Together on other issues like whether or not the rest


of the UK would support Scottish entry into the EU for instance? The


Edinburgh agreement was an agreement to hold the referendum and abide by


the outcome. Whichever way Scotland votes there is no going back on


that. It is not very constructive to say we are not going to negotiate on


this big issue. Surely on an issue like the currency, the single


biggest issue which will affect people's mortgages, savings, how


much they will be on loans, isn't it better to know now whether or not


there would be a currency union? The fact of the matter is they will not


be. Will be be other common positions? It must be better to note


the common positions. Can we expect a common position on the situation


as regards Scotland's EU membership, issued energy for


existence? With Europe, whatever position the UK or parts of the UK


were to take, the matter is not in our hands, it is in the hands of 27


other member states who have their own internal politics and jockeying


for position on a whole range of interests. It does not have to be


about the merits of Scotland, it can be about the price of all of all of


oil, agriculture policy and so on. Both sides are agreed that whatever


the result in September, there is no going back on it, no second chances,


we abide by it. To a large extent Scotland will be throwing itself on


the mercy of the decisions taken by 27 other member states who, frankly,


have their own battles to fight. There are so many uncertainties


here. We have a massive amount of risk and uncertainty which will cost


lives and ones we do not need to take. A row over the weekends are


funded is threatening to split local government down the middle. Several


local government say they are not getting their fair share from the


Scottish Government. This has brought COSLA to boiling point. Two


big councils have said they planned to leave if things do not change. As


a local government correspondent has been finding out, some Labour


councillors say DIY is needed to fix COSLA or they will leave. It is the


time of year when councillors have been deciding what to spend cash on.


Times are hard for all councils just now but most still find money to


support their local priorities. In Renfrewshire last week's local


budget helped the scheme for this business to grow. But there were


many hard choices to balance the books. Renfrewshire gets ?300


million per year from the Scottish Government but it says it should be


getting far more. Renfrewshire I does not get a fair share from the


Scottish Government, 18 million less than we should be on the average


council when they should be getting more because we have the our fair


share of problems in terms of deprivation. Councils get 80p of


every pound they spend. The minister responsible for councils used to


read Renfrewshire himself and has limited sympathy with his successors


claims. We all argue for the indicators that best suit us which


is natural. There are some rural areas with a geeky thing population


and others with an increasing one. The current system has served us


well over the past number of years. This disagreement is so serious it


threatens to rupture COSLA, the Lizzie Power struggle, Labour leads


16 of the 32 councils and gets COSLA most of its cash. -- their is a


power struggle. Coors light cannot take a stand on issues that divide


councils like the funding deal. -- COSLA. We are a huge contributor to


growth and a huge contributor to the economy. We need to see that


reflected at a Scottish level. Aberdeen and Renfrewshire are


expected to be joined by more Labour councils. These other areas are also


set to decide whether to quit. Dumfries and Galloway has also


separately said it may leave. Some fear a big split in the body that is


meant to help them all will ultimately do little good. If COSLA


did not exist then councils would want to invent it. I do not think it


is good enough for a few councils not to get their way and to walk


away, I think that would leave them in a poor place. Critics believe it


could sometimes take a stronger line on controversial issues and if those


Labour critics do not get the repeal is they want, there could be a real


split in the collective voice of local government. You are watching


Sunday Politics in Scotland now let's join Andrew Kerr for the news.


Good afternoon. The president of The European Commission has said it


would be extremely difficult if not impossible for an independent


Scotland to join the EU. Jose Manuel Barroso said Scotland would have to


apply for membership. It would need agreement from the member states.


The battle over the future of the pound in an independent Scotland is


continuing this lunchtime. John Swinney said the Chancellor was


bluffing in his refusal to countenance a sterling currency


union postindependence ad called for talks with the Treasury to look at


the issue. But the leader of the Better Together campaign said a


currency union would not stack up for Scotland or the United Kingdom.


Team GB's men curlers have lost their penultimate match of the round


robin stage at the Winter Olympics, going down 7-6 to Norway. The defeat


for skip David Murdoch and his team leaves them on five wins and three


defeats. That is what happens with these games. A lot of these games


are 50-50. Unfortunately we missed a couple of crucial shots today to get


in front and start dominating them. Now let's take a look at the weather


with Gillian. Now let's


A cracking afternoon to come for most of us as a ridge of high


pressure delivers blue skies and sunshine. A few showers across


western Scotland and more frequent showers over the far north of the


mainland and the Northern Isles, accompanied by strong winds and snow


on the hills. For most places, crisp sunshine. Around 60 sea sand with


light winds that will not feel bad in the sunshine. -- around six


Celsius. A risk of ice. Back to Gary.


Thank you. In a moment we will discuss the big events coming up in


Holyrood but let's take a look back at the beach in 60 seconds. Scots


are less concerned about immigration than those south of the border


according to a new survey. However, 58% of respondents here still said


they favoured few new arrivals. The majority favour less immigration


rather than more. But they are less likely to take that view than people


in England and Wales. ScottishPower announced it would be doubling the


capacity of its hydroelectric power plants in the north of Scotland.


Drivers are facing a bumpy ride at the moment and it emerged this week


that Scottish councils are spending more than ?1600 per day compensating


those whose cars have been damaged by potholes. Plans to appoint a


named Guardian for a Scottish child was opposed by the Church of


Scotland, saying the idea would diminish the role of parents. MSPs


will turn to Hollywood this week for the final stage of the debate.


-- Hollywood. -- Holyrood. Let's have a look at the papers


ahead of the week. Joining me this week is polling meal. Good


afternoon. They start with the remarks from Jose Manuel Barroso.


Clearly a significant intervention, is it going to be a setback to the


Yes campaign? To have him say that it would be difficult if not


impossible for an independent Scotland to secure membership of the


European Union? It is not a significant contribution. It is


nonsense. His credibility just goes down and down. The one thing being


you is is an expansionist organisation. They have been


desperate to take all kinds of countries in and we are in a


desperate to take all kinds of countries in and situation, a stable


Christie, a country with major resources and controlling a huge


maritime territory. A country that would be a net contributor and he


said no. There is argument is four but there are countries with vested


interests, secessionists concerns they might actually try and put the


brakes on this. Alistair Darling made the point that membership might


happen but it could take a long time. The Spanish Prime Minister


will have to and third to his fishermen who are going to be so


delighted if they even temporarily have Scotland out of the EU and


Scotland has to say, you are not fishing in our territory. We have a


very strong bargaining position. And the noise coming out right now is


just politics in being you. Do we have to see this in the context of


Jose Manuel Barroso being a politician, some SNP politicians are


saying that he is playing politics. I think it is clear now that


Scotland, and the new member states, would have to apply. So at least the


voters know there would have to be an application, and on what terms?


The statement today, I can understand why he is saying it could


be difficult. Because we know that politics will get played in Europe,


although it is inconceivable in the long run that Scotland would not be


a member. The question is, how long would it take? Perhaps he have to


and so the question as to why he is saying that it is impossible for


Scotland to be a member. -- perhaps he has to. The voters will have to


accept it will not happen immediately. There may be protracted


negotiation that it is up to other EU member states to make that


decision. Because voters will be aware that all member states must


agree for Scotland to be part of the EU. I am perspective on it is that,


in the long run, an independent Scotland would join the EU. But how


long would it take? Would it be palatable to most people? Let's talk


about currency. Given interviews today, it will dominate next week as


well. Alex Salmond is making a speech to business leaders in


Aberdeen tomorrow. A couple of newspaper today are focusing on this


as well. The Sunday Herald is one of them. Is this, in your view,


bullying from Westminster? Or are Westminster politicians right to


say, this is our line in the sand? It is entirely predictable. The


British establishment is determined to hold on to Scotland for a very


good use and is -- for a very good reasons. We have many resources. We


are aware of the key their nuclear bombs. They will do and say anything


to try to get a No vote. So you do not believe them when they say it is


in the best interests of the rest of the UK for the UK to stay together?


Now. It would not be my first option. -- Calmac. The UK has


serious debt problems. It has lots of difficulties coming down the


line. -- no. It is saying it is going to sacrifice this balance of


payments contribution? Is it that a lament of Scotland's contribution


towards debt? We have got the Sunday Times as well today. They say they


have spoken to some business leaders or at least the economic and social


research Council has, and some of those business leaders are worried


about lack of certainty in the event of a Yes vote. One or two have


talked about leaving Scotland. We have heard the stories before. Does


this class as scaremongering? I think that both sides, the yes and


no campaign, are aware that the currency is the most critical issue


for voters. So you will see this more. Is it a bluff or not? And the


former Labour politician, are you comfortable with all of the


pronouncements you saw this week? It starts with the Governor of the Bank


of England's declaration that it is not impossible but the terms of the


currency union are quite strong. It is clear to me that even if the SNP


were to win the argument about currency, they will have to concede


a great deal of sovereignty to get it. And what in the white paper are


they prepared to negotiate to get it? We have politicians saying we


are not prepared to take the risk based on this assessment.


Therefore, I think the onus is on the Yes campaign took provides


uncertainty around this. The problem for the Yes campaign in the weeks


and months to come is that there is no unity in their side. Around what


the alternative currency would be. So, of course, as an individual, I


would want the best for Scotland whatever Scotland voted for. I think


voters, hardly anyone has talked about the voter in all of this


debate about currency. We need to know the implications, what is the


currency and what is the alternative currency if the SNP did not win the


argument and Howard that impact people's pensions? From the point of


view of ordinary people, yes. -- Howard that impact people's


pensions? The options would be either using the pound but not in


the currency union, or having a Scottish pound which is pegged to


sterling, which means interchanges the same. That is as it applies to


the individual. What you will find is that, irrespective of what comes


from the Government, you will find more work on deciding which is the


preferred plan B, or for some people it might be the plan A, coming from


people on the yes side. Not necessarily SNP ministers? I don't


know. That would answer your question. When you talk about


negotiation and the onus being on the SNP, is it right that the


Westminster Government should say, seven months out, here is our line


in the sand? Voters once uncertainty around the debate from both sides.


It is going to be negotiating, isn't it? It is going to be two


negotiations. I am sorry, we have to leave things there. There is a lot


to talk about, but not enough time. That is all from us this week. I


will be back at the same time next week. Goodbye.


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.

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