Browse content similar to 16/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be extremely | :00:36. | :00:44. | |
difficult if not impossible for an independent Scotland to join the | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
European Union. So says the president of the European | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant development in the | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
independence debate. It is our top story. He has got the power to bring | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow joins us for the | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
interview. Now the by-election, another second place for UKIP. Just | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
how big a threat does Nigel Farage's party pose for the Tory | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
party? And coming up on Sunday Politics | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
Scotland: The President of the European Commission says an | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
independent Scotland would find it "difficult if not impossible" to | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
gain approval from other member states for EU entry. | :01:26. | :01:37. | |
political panel in the business. The twits will be as incessant and | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
probably as welcome as the recent rain. A significant new development | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
in the debate over Scottish independence this morning, the | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
President of the European Commission, President Jose Manuel | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
Barroso, has confirmed what the Nationalists have long denied, that | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
an independent Scotland would have to reply to join the European Union | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
as a new member, that it would require the agreement of all 28 | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
member states and that would be, in his words, extremely difficult, if | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
not impossible. In case there is a new country, a new state coming out | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
of a current member state, it will have to apply and, this is very | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
important, the application to the union would have to be approved by | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
all of the other member states. Countries like Spain, with the | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
secessionist issues they have? I don't want to interfere in your | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
democratic discussion here, but of course, it will be extremely | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
difficult to get the approval of all of the other member states, to have | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
a new member coming in from one member state. We have seen that that | :02:45. | :02:53. | |
Spain has been opposing even the recognition, for instance, so it is | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
a similar state. It is a new country. I believe it is great to be | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
externally difficult, if not impossible. Well, he says he doesn't | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
want to interfere, but he has just dropped a medium-sized explosive | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
into the debate on Scottish independence? A huge story. Alex | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
Salmond must be wondering what is going to go wrong next. His pitch to | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
the Scottish people is based on two things, the currency union with | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
England and the rest of the United Kingdom, which was blown apart last | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
week, and this morning, his claims that Scotland would automatically | :03:30. | :03:40. | |
get into the European Union has been dynamited. He's not only saying that | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
they would have to apply, it is also saying it might be impossible to get | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
the agreement of all 28 members to allow Scotland in. That's even more | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
significant than the application? The reference to Spain is | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
interesting, we talk about Catalan independence, an economic and active | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
area that Spain does not want to be independent. About five other | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
countries are blocking Kosovo's accession to the EU. There is no | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
reason they would want to encourage the secessionist in their country by | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
letting Scotland do the same. If Scotland does have to apply, and it | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
does get in, it solves the currency problem because all new members have | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
to accept the Euro? At the moment, the SNP are rejecting that quite | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
strongly. What an interesting intervention today. However, I know | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
that those arguing that Scotland should stay in the union are worried | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
that the polls are tightening. A lot of these interventions, parents care | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
arguments, they don't look like they are convincing the Scottish people. | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
We haven't had any polls yet? We haven't, but we have since the | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
currency debate was reignited in the last few weeks and it shows the | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
polls tightening slightly. I think Alistair Darling's campaign would | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
prefer to be much further ahead at the stage. They are worried that | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
these technical commandments are not having much sway. Are the polls | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
tightening slightly? They could be within the statistical margin for | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
error. They are, but not much. Alex Salmond's main page is one of | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
reassurance. He wants to say you can vote for independence, a pound in | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
the pocket will be the same as before and you will still be a | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
member of the European Union. In the last three or four matter days, both | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
of those claims have been blown apart. Angus MacNeil has already | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
told BBC Radio 5 Live that the remarks are nonsense and he is | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
playing more politics. We hope to speak to the SNP's finance minister, | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
John Swinney, a little bit later in the programme. It is not just the | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
constant rain that London commuters have had to deal with. There was | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
also a strike on the tube that disrupted the travel of millions. A | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
second stoppage was on the cards, but it was called off at the last | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
minute. The leader of the biggest | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
underground workers union, the RMT, is Bob Crow, who has led his members | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
into 24 strikes on the tube since 2005, as well as disputes on the | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
national rail network. Under his leadership, the union's membership | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to more than 80,000, at a time when | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
union membership overall has been shrinking. The current dispute has | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris Johnson over the mayor's plans to | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
close tube station ticket offices. The 48-hour stoppage at the | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
beginning of this month is estimated to have cost the London economy ?100 | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
million. The two sides have agreed a truce, for now, but Mr Crow has | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
threatened further action if the mayor imposes his changes. | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday interview. | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You have suspended the strike for the | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
moment. What will it take to call it off entirely? Want to know first of | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
all wider booking office has to close. The Mayor of London made it | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
quite clear in his election programme that the booking offices | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
would remain open. It was strange, really, because Ken Livingstone | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
wanted to close them down and the mayor thought it was popular to keep | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
them open and put in his campaign to keep them open. However, we have not | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
the news figures. We are being told only 3% of people use the booking | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
offices. That's not true. In research done, if somebody does to a | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
booking office with somebody sitting there and asks for a ticket of less | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
than ?5, they are not allowed to sell them a ticket, it is madness. | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
Do you use the ticket office? When it is open, yes. You said to ITV | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
that he didn't. I don't know what I said to ITV, I don't know what time | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
people use them, sometimes they are open and sometimes they are closed. | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
People make out that these ticket office staff are people that sit | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
behind barriers like a newsagent. I'm not knocking a newsagent, | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
however, these people were the same people treated like Lions when they | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
were helping people named in the terrorist incidents, taking them out | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
of the panels. Suddenly they are lazy people that sit in ticket | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
offices. My understanding is that the people would come from behind | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
and be out and about now. It is the management wants to run the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
underground without ticket offices, isn't that their prerogative? They | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
are paid to manage, not you, not your members, they are the managers? | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
Managers are there to manage, and we want good managers. But we've got | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
some really bad managers that are not looking at the railway as a | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
whole. This is a successful industry, not an industry in | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
decline, one of the most successful in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
people a day. All of the forecast is or it will move to 3.6 million per | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
day. The mayor wants to run services on a Friday and Saturday night. We | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
are not opposed to that. However, it does not make sense that if more | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
people are going to be using the tube on Friday and Saturday, coming | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
home at two o'clock three o'clock in the morning, a lot of people | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
drinking, a lot of people not dragging, why take 1000 people of | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
the network that come to the aid of people that are looking to people? I | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
want to show you this picture. This is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
think it is. I was trying to copy you. You deserve this break because | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
you have done a fantastic job for your members. Yes, I don't see what | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
that has got to do with it. Let's get every editor of the daily | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
newspapers and see where they go on their holidays, I would like to | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
know. What I choose to do... I'm not attacking you for doing that... | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
You've got a picture up there, I've got to say, why don't they go and | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
follow Boris Johnson when he was away on holiday, when the riots were | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
taking place in London, and he refused to come back? Why don't they | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
go and view the editors of newspapers, where they go on | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
holiday? Why do they look at you when you go on holiday? They | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
sometimes do, actually. The basic pay of a tube driver will soon be | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
?52,000. Ticket office workers are already earning over ?35,000. Never | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, or membership by your house for what | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
you have done for them? When you look at the papers this morning, I | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
see that Wayne Rooney is going to get a ?70 million deal over the next | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
four deals. I see NHS doctors are getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
of people that do a lot of people that, in my opinion, don't do | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
anything for society. The top paid people in this country should be | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, we live in a jungle. If you are not | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
strong, the bosses will walk all over you. The reason why we got good | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
terms and conditions is because we fought for them. The reality is, all | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
of these three political parties, liberals, Tories and Labour, they | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
have all put no programme that to defend working people. So we have to | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
do it on our own. And that is why you have done such a great job for | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
your members and why union membership has been rising, people | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
want to be part of a successful operation. But it has come at a cost | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
for less well-paid workers, who travel on the cheap? If everyone | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
believes if London Underground tube workers take a pay freeze they are | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
going to redistribute the money to the rest of the workers that work on | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
the cheap... But the people that travel on the tube, let's look at | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
some of them, they are the ones that suffer from your strike action. The | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
starting salary of a cheap driver now, ?48,000. The starting salary | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22,000 for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
teacher starting out. As your members have spread, they have had | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
to live through 24 strikes in 13 years to push up your members | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The have put a pay freeze on by | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
conservatives and liberals. The police constables, so have the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
teachers. We have had the ability to go and fight. The reality is, at the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
end of the day, as I have said before, no one is going to put up | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the cause for workers. Not one single party in parliament are | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
fighting the cause for workers. They all support privatisation, they all | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
support keeping the anti-trade union laws, they all support illegal wars | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
around the world. Unless they have a fighting trade union, our members | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
pay would be as low as some others. You said we could not care less if | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
we have 1 million strikes. But these people, the lower paid people who | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
travel on the tube, who need it as an essential service, they care. Of | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
course they care, I've said before that I apologise to the troubling | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
public for the dispute that took place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
two to tango. If the boy never imposed terms and conditions on us | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
against our will... But you've got great terms and conditions! But it's | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
a constant battle, they are trying to change them. Drivers are having | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
their pay going up to ?50,000. You said they are making it worse, it is | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
going up. They are trying to make things worse for workers. You said | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
at the start of the interview that the tube strike cost ?100 million in | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
two days. It means that when members go to work for two days it is worth | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
?100 million. That demonstrates what they are worth. Only a fighting | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
trade union can defend workers out there. Your members should enjoy | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
what you have got for them, because it's not going to last, is it? | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
Technology will change the whole way your business operates. As Karl Marx | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
says, you said I was a mixture of Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
the Sopranos. I thought that was quite funny... The Karl Marx part of | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
it, the only thing that is constant is change. We have been crying out | :14:16. | :14:24. | |
for new technology. But for who? To put people on the dole, so they | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
can't do anything and do anything for society, or technology so | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
everybody benefits, lower fares, better service and better terms and | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
conditions for the workers. But you have made Labour so expensive on the | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
underground that management now has a huge incentive to substitute | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
technology for Labour. And that's what it's going to do, it is closing | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
the ticket offices and very soon, starting in 2016, the driverless | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
trains coming. What I am saying is that your members should enjoy this | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
because it's not going to last. Driverless trains are not coming | :15:03. | :15:12. | |
in, it is not safe. We have them in Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
is not safe? These are new lines that have been built so that when it | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
breaks down, people can get out of the tunnel. Would you want to be | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
stuck on a summers day on the Northern line? A pregnant woman who | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
cannot get off the train? Absolute panic that takes place, the reality | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
is simple, it is a nonsense. It's not going to happen because it is a | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
Victorian network. On Docklands railway for example it is driverless | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
but when the train breaks down, it is above ground on a very small | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
section. All of these other cities managed to have it. You remind me | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
about Henry Ford in the 1930s when he said, you see that robot over | :16:06. | :16:21. | |
their, he cannot buy a car. All sorts of new jobs are being created | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
all the time in other areas. Come back to the ticket offices, not many | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
people use the ticket offices any more, what is wrong with getting the | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
stuff out of the ticket office on to the concourses, meeting and | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
greeting, helping disabled people and tourists and making it a better | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
service? They can do more on the concourse than they can in the | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
ticket office. Andrew, he took the decision to close down every single | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
ticket office. You cannot compare for example Chesham with the likes | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
of Heathrow. Are you telling me people are going to be on a long | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
transatlantic flight, arrived at Heathrow and cannot get a ticket. | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
The stuff will be redeployed on the concourse. The simple problem is | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
that it is not just about the booking office, it is about people | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
having a visual. If you are partially sighted, you cannot use | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
the machines. If British is not your first language, you cannot use the | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
offices. How many languages do your members speak? I don't know, I | :17:43. | :17:50. | |
struggle with English. The machines can speak many different languages. | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
They are dehumanising things. You phone the bank, all you hear is, | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
press one for this, two for that. People want to hear it human being | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
and what makes the London Underground so precious is that | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
people want to see people. Having well-dressed, motivated people out | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
on the concourse, what part of that don't you like? They will be on the | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
concourse and they will have machines. The fact is that London | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
Underground did a risk assessment of closing down their booking offices | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
and it is clear that if you are disabled, if you are partially | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
sighted, London Underground becomes more dangerous. You are posing the | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
closing of ticket offices, opposing driverless trains, when you opposed | :18:44. | :18:51. | |
to the Oyster card when it came in? No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal | :18:52. | :19:06. | |
with it. It is not the only way. They should supplement the staff and | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
the job. If more people used the London Underground system, you want | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
more staff to deal with them. Let's look at your mandate to strike. Of | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
your members who work on the Tube, only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30% | :19:26. | :19:34. | |
voted for the strike, so 70% actually didn't vote to strike of | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
your members, but the strike went ahead. Isn't it right to have a | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
higher threshold before you can cause this disruption? It would be | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
lovely if everyone voted but the Tories took that away. We used to | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
have ballots at the workplace. What I'm trying to say to you is that we | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
used to have a ballot box at the workplace and the turnouts were | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
higher. The Tories believe that if they can have a secret ballot where | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
ballot papers went to people's home addresses, where they could be | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
persuaded by the bosses, votes would be different. Let's go back to the | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
workplace ballot because you get a bigger turnout. Will the RMT | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I have no intention to. We got | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
expelled from the Labour Party. But you will give some money to the | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
Labour councils? Those that support our basic policies get money, we | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
don't give money directly to MPs, we give it to constituencies. Are you | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
going to stand for re-election in 2016? I might do, I might not. You | :20:58. | :21:07. | |
haven't decided yet? No, but more than likely I will do. And will you | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
stand again as an anti-EU candidate? Yes, I am standing in London, and | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
right across, completely different to UKIP's policies. They are | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
anti-European, they believe all of the faults of Europe are down to the | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
immigrants. We are anti-European Union. If London Underground is as | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
badly run as you think, why don't you run for mayor? That is down the | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
road, it has not come up yet. I'm not ruling anything out. I'm not | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
ruling out getting your job on the Sunday Politics. You have got to | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
retire as well, you have got to put your feet up. I will get you to | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
renegotiate my package. Shall we go on strike first? If I could have | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
your wages, I would have two trips to Rio every year. Good luck. And if | :22:11. | :22:21. | |
you're in the London region they'll have more on the Tube strike later | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
in the programme. Let's get back to those comments from Jose Manuel | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
Barroso, and reaction to these comments from John Swinney. Scottish | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
Nationalists denied all along you would have to reapply, we have now | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
heard it without any caveats, you will and you might not get in. I | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments were preposterous this morning. He | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
compared the situation to the one in Kosovo. Britain is the member, | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
Scotland is not the member. If you go independent, you will have to | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
reapply, he says. All of the arrangements we have in place are | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
compatible with the workings of the European Union because we have been | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
part of it for 40 years. The propositions we put forward work | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
about essentially negotiating the continuity of Scotland's membership | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
of the European Union and that position has now been explained and | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
debated and discussed and reinforced by comments made by experts. We are | :23:37. | :23:48. | |
talking about the president of the European commission and we have | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
spoken to him since he gave that interview on the BBC this morning, | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
it was an intervention that he made that he wanted to lay out that | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
Scotland should be in no doubt that if they vote for independence they | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
will have to apply for European membership and they may not get it | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
if it is vetoed by other members. What he didn't say is that no state | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
of the European Union have indicated they would veto Scottish | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
membership. The Spanish foreign minister has. They have said that if | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
there is an agreed process within the UK that Scotland becomes an | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
independent country, then Spain has got nothing to say about the issue. | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
That indicates to me clearly that the Spanish government will have no | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
stance to take on the Scottish membership of the European Union | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
because it is important that Scotland is already part of the | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
European Union, our laws are compatible with the European Union | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
and we play our part. The only threat to Scotland's participation | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
in the European Union is the potential in/out referendum that | :25:07. | :25:16. | |
David Cameron wants to have in 2017. It has not been a great week for | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
you, has it? Everything you seem to want, the monetary union, that has | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
been blown out of the water by the Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
Barroso has said you will have to reapply to the European Union, it | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
has not been a good week. You will follow the debate closely, and the | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
Sunday newspapers are full about the backlash taking place within | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
Scotland at the bullying remarks of the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well now? He is making an indirect | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
comparison between Scotland and Kosovo. If you vote for independence | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
and you do have two apply again to join, if you do get in it solves | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
your currency problem because you will have to accept the euro. We | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
have set out an option on the currency arrangements which would be | :26:21. | :26:29. | |
to establish the currency union. You would have to adopt the euro. That's | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
not rate because you have to be part of the exchange-rate mechanism for | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
two years before you can apply for membership and an independent | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
Scotland has no intention of signing up to the exchange rate mechanism or | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
the single currency. We are concentrating on setting out our | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
arguments for maintaining the pound sterling, which is in the interests | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
of Scotland and the UK. Thank you sterling, which is in the interests | :26:56. | :27:03. | |
for joining us this morning. This week's least surprising news | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
was that Labour won the safe seat of Wythenshawe and Sale East in a | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
by-election, following the death of the MP Paul Goggins. With the result | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
so predictable, all eyes were on whether this would be the sixth time | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
this parliament that UKIP would come second. And whether they'd chip away | :27:17. | :27:18. | |
at Labour's vote, not just the Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
up all night to find out what it all meant. Forget the hype. Forget the | :27:24. | :27:33. | |
theorising. And yes - everyone has a theory. UKIP are learning from us. | :27:34. | :27:44. | |
What have they picked up from you? To be silly. Thanks to this week's | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
by-election we've got some hard evidence in paper form that helps | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
answer the question: How are UKIP doing? Turns out the answer is well, | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
but not well enough to beat Labour. I'm therefore claim -- declare that | :28:00. | :28:09. | |
Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have come second and increased their | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
share of the vote quite significantly. But their performance | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
isn't as good as their performances in some of the other by-elections | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
this parliament. Just don't suggest to them that their bandwagon has | :28:18. | :28:26. | |
ground to a halt. A week ago you'd told me you were going to win, what | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
happened? No, I didn't, I said I wanted to win. My mistake. How are | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
happened? No, I didn't, I said I you feeling? It is a Labour | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
stronghold, we always knew it was going to be a fight. Labour were | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
running scared of letting us present our arguments. UKIP's campaign in | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
Wythenshawe didn't point to the right but to the left, with leaflets | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
that branded Labour as a party of millionaires who didn't care about | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
the working class. It wasn't a winning strategy but it did help | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
them beat the Tories who focused on dog mess and potholes instead. | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford from Manchester Uni thinks they | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
could be on the right track. He's analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
voters for a new book, which could confound the received wisdom about | :29:19. | :29:29. | |
the party. The common media image of the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
faced golf club and -- member from the south-east of the UK and many | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
UKIP activists do resemble that stereotype to some extent, they do | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
pick up a lot of activists from the Conservative party, but UKIP voters | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
are older, more working class, more likely to live in Northern, urban | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
areas, and they are much more anti-system than anti-EU. And | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
they're precisely the voters that the Tory MP David Mowat needs if | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
he's to hold on to his narrow majority in the constituency just | :30:05. | :30:17. | |
down the road. Do you have a UKIP strategy in your seat? Our UKIP | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
strategy is to point out that if they want a referendum on if they | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
want to be in the EU or not, there is one way to get it, for the | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
Conservatives to form their next government and for me to be their | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy what they want? I'm not sure it will | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
be accidental. People need to realise that if Ed Miliband is the | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
Prime Minister, there will be no referendum on the EU and UKIP may | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
have made their point but they would not have got their referendum. Over | :30:48. | :30:55. | |
at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up time. Not helping, Nigel? I had | :30:56. | :31:03. | |
major surgery on the 19th of November and I am still weak as a | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
kitten. I can barely lift a pint with my right hand, it is as serious | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
as that. The answer is, Carreon, chaps, you're all doing a very good | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
job. There will be carrying on to the European elections in May, which | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
will provide more evidence of if the UKIP and wagon is powering on or if | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
it is just parked. -- bandwagon. With me now is the Conservative MEP | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
Vicky fraud and UKIP director of medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
will also be a candidate in the upcoming European elections. You | :31:36. | :31:37. | |
came second in Manchester, but it was not a close second. -- Vicky | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
Ford. There is nothing that is a game changer? I think it is very | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
unusual for any insurgent party, like the liberals used to be, to | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
actually win a safe seat of the opposition. Those shocks, going back | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
to I think we did well. Though it | :31:58. | :32:25. | |
wasn't a breakthrough for UKIP, it pushed you into third place and | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
should be increasing irrelevance of the Tories in the North. Tory minded | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
voters in the North Sea more inclined to vote for UKIP than you. | :32:34. | :32:42. | |
By-elections are by-elections. You need to look at them all and learn | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
the lessons from them. We need to look forward to the European | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
elections in 2014. That is in May this year. When we have a chance to | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
really grab this change in Europe, grab a change that Jose Manuel | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
Barroso has been talking about. Why, you don't worry that, particularly | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
in the North, if people want to vote against Labour, your supporters are | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
drifting to UKIP? People voted UKIP in a European | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
election. They bought that because they won't change. The problem is, | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
Patrick's party have had MEPs since 1989 and they cannot deliver that | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
change. The cat because they don't have seats in Westminster. The only | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
way we are going to get the change we want in Europe is to have this | :33:35. | :33:36. | |
referendum and have the renegotiation. What do you say to | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
that? Get real. The Conservative Party have not won a parliamentary | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
majority in 22 years. John Major failed in 1997. The only way you | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
will get the referendum, if that what motivates you, and I assume | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
with UKIP that is what motivates you, is if there is a majority | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
Conservative Government in the next election. And you could well stop | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
that from happening. I don't accept that. Just as we forced David | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
Cameron into a referendum pledge he had ruled out making before, and I | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
was there in PMQs when his MPs asked him and he said a referendum would | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
not be in the national interest because he did not want to leave, | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
our electoral success force that pledge and by winning the European | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
elections this may we can force Ed Miliband, against his will, to match | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
that pledge and then whatever formulation there is, we will get a | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
referendum. The Labour MPs in Westminster have just had the | :34:41. | :34:42. | |
chance, and the Labour peers have had the chance to say, we want the | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
referendum. The refused to do it. The only way you will get a | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
renegotiation, a change in our relationship with Europe and in a | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
referendum is to have a Conservative Government. Please, UKIP, will you | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
stop pretending that you can deliver because you do not deliver. We | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
already have delivered. We forced David Cameron to give a pledge for a | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
referendum he did not want to give. We will know by next election if you | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
are right about Ed Miliband. He will have to tell us. If Mr Miliband | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
holds out against giving you a referendum, what will you do? There | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
are loads of reasons for people to vote UKIP. I have asked the David | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
Cameron and he firmly intends to lead the campaign to stay in. We | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
want to be out of the European Union. The Tories will say, vote | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
UKIP, get Ed Miliband. What do you say to that? We have probably maxed | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
out the Tory vote we are going to get because David Cameron has been | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
incredibly helpful and sending them in our direction. What we are | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
concentrating on is those blue-collar, disenchanted former | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
Labour voters and more and more of them are coming towards us. On our | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
messages on things like immigration and law and order. We want to | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
renegotiate our relationship with Europe. We need people who will turn | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
up to renegotiate with was a Manuel Barroso. So that is a Prime Minister | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
who is not Ed Miliband, but David Cameron. | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
who is not Ed Miliband, but David UKIP MEPs do not turn up in | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
Brussels. I have heard that said before. If Francois Hollande is as | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
good as his word and says there's been no substantial renegotiation | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
and no treaty change this side of 2017, when he is up for real action, | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
what will you do? He is a French socialist Prime Minister. He is the | :36:41. | :36:49. | |
one you have to negotiate with. You need to bring something with | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
substance back from these negotiations in Europe. People will | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
vote to leave. This is on a knife edge. The Prime Minister has been | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
very clear. Will you vote to leave? Unless we get what we want on a | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
renegotiation, we will leave us. Let's see what the deal on the table | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
is on 2017. If the status quo is what we have today, I would want to | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
leave. But I would want to renegotiate. Thank you. For those in | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
the East of England, you will be seeing even more of Patrick. You are | :37:26. | :37:34. | |
watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: The President of the | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
European Commission, Jose Manuel Barosso, pours cold water on easy | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
entry to the EU entry for an independent Scotland. It is a new | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
country and so I believe it is going to be extremely difficult, if not | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries, | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
getting the agreement. After the Chancellor rules out a | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
currency union post independence. Can the Scottish Government reassure | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
voters over our money? And is Cosla in need of some DIY? | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
Cracks appear over funding for our local authorities. | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
Good morning. It has been a week to remember in the independence | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
campaign. The president of the European Commission has said it | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
would be very difficult if not impossible for an independent | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
Scotland to become a member of the European Union. That marks are | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
causing a storm as the row over the future of the pound in an | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
independent Scotland rumbles on. I will address both issues in an | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
interview with the Finance Secretary in a moment, then we will speak to | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
the Better Together leader Alistair Darling. First, Andrew Kerr reports | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
on Whitehall's intervention in the debate on currency union. | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
It is a new country. I believe it is going to be extremely difficult if | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries, | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
getting the agreement of the rest, but it is now for the British people | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
and the Scottish people in their referendum to decide about their | :39:06. | :39:12. | |
future. That was Jose Manuel Barroso speaking earlier this morning when | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
he was talking about the prospects of an independent Scotland's | :39:17. | :39:18. | |
membership of the year. It is an issue we will debate with John | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
Swinney and also we will be talking to the leader of the Better Together | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
campaign, Alistair Darling. They will both join me in a moment and we | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
will have a chat. In a meantime, let's go back to that report from | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
Andrew Kerr on Westminster's intervention in the currency debate. | :39:36. | :39:45. | |
The West Minister is established and enters the fray. Sir Nicholas | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
MacPherson, the permanent Secretary to the Treasury, has had his advice | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
against a currency union published. He is a powerful Whitehall mandarin. | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
Just like Sir Humphrey. I am not happy with this report. We will | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
redraft it for you. The Minister in this case the Chancellor was | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
certainly happy with the memo. It knocked down any hope of a currency | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
union. On the basis of the official advice that I have received from | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
double servants in the Treasury, and our advice is, they would not | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
recommend a currency union to the Government of the continuing UK. -- | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
the official advice I have received from the civil servants. They have, | :40:29. | :40:37. | |
as we know, been very reluctant to have the pound involved in the | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
currency union and many of those people feel vindicated by the | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
problem is that the euro has had in recent years and they are pleased | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
that the UK never joined it. So I think that there is clearly a lot of | :40:50. | :40:58. | |
genuine scepticism about the wisdom of formal currency unions between | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
sovereign states and that is reflected in that letter. In the TV | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
studios, the First Minister was then forced to present a calm and | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
reasoned approach to the metaphorical rug being pulled from | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
under his feet. The Yes campaign has to explain our case in reasonable | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
fashion and see whether logic is in the low back on our side. -- whether | :41:20. | :41:29. | |
logic is on our side. It is also in the interest of England as well. A | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
strong hand that has been shown by the UK Government, but what happened | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
to the pledge not to renegotiate? Ben Thomson from reform Scotland is | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
arguing for more powers for Scotland. He watched the | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
Chancellor's speech and is anxious for more detail. If they are | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
starting to be this clear, but they will be more clear about some of the | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
other things. About what a noble will mean. -- what a No vote will | :41:55. | :42:03. | |
mean. At this week has shown us is the hard negotiations that could | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
take place between the two sides. Alex Salmond has warned that | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
Scotland would not take on its share of the estimated ?1.6 trillion of UK | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
national debt come a possible Independence Day. Unless he can get | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
a slice of shared assets including the pound. But Westminster could | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
retaliate by frustrating Scotland's attempt to enter international | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
institutions. In terms of using international organisations to get | :42:30. | :42:31. | |
Scotland in line, it is much more likely to be EU. EU membership | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
because it will be so political when it comes to negotiating and Scotland | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
will have a relatively weak hand in negotiations for EU membership. | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
Because so many EU countries are against Scottish independence. That | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
would be the institutional leveraged that would most likely be used to | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
sort of make Scotland accept a certain term that it didn't. I | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
wouldn't think NATO membership would be useful. That is for the | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
long-term. In the event of a Yes vote. In the short-term, it will be | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
interesting see how the polls react, whether Scots feel the pound | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
in their pocket is under threat or if they feel bullied by Westminster | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
politicians. I am joined now from Dundee by the | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
Finance Secretary. Good afternoon to you. Let's start with the comments | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
from Jose Manuel Barroso this morning on the BBC. He said it will | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
be very difficult if not impossible to get agreement from all other EU | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
members for Scottish membership. That is definitive. His remarks are | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
pretty preposterous because you didn't quote his full interview. He | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
suggested that Scotland was in the same position as Kosovo. Kosovo is | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
not a member of the European Union. Scotland has been part of the | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
European Union for 40 years. I think that very significant difference of | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
the fact that we have been participants in the European Union, | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
are legal framework is compatible with the European Union, we have | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
been willing partners and participants in the European Union, | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
ensures we are in a fundamentally different position from the one | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
articulated by him. He didn't compare Scotland to Kosovo. He used | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
that and it is an example where Spain said it would not want to go | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
down the road of allowing EU to recognise Kosovo's independence. | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
That is the position he believes Spain may well add up if Ford a vote | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
on Scottish membership. -- may well adopt if offered a vote. What has | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
been said is that if the arrangements going into the unity | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
kingdom for the referendum essentially agreed arrangements | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
between Scotland and the rest of the UK, as epitomised by the Edinburgh | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
Agreement, signed in October 2012 between the First Minister and the | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
Prime Minister. The Spanish Foreign Minister is saying, if you have got | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
an agreed process in the UK by which Scotland can become independent, | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
Spain has got no opinion on the issue of the outcome of the | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
referendum. But it will have an opinion on whether it agrees to let | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
Scotland into the EU. The Spanish Foreign Minister has accepted that | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
the United Kingdom is taking an approach which leads to an agreed | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
independent settlement between Scotland and the rest of the mighty | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
kingdom. He can veto EU membership for Scotland. As a consequence, it | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
enables us to establish the platform by which Scotland becomes a member | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
of the European Union. Not a single state in the European Union has made | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
any remark about the fact that it would be in any way likely to beat | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
all Scottish membership of the bee you. I can see why they would want | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
to do that. -- membership of the EU. The history of the EU has been about | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
expansion, growth, involving new members, bringing more countries | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
into the fold of the European Union. Scotland has been a willing and | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
active participant of the EU for 40 years. Let's move on to the currency | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
union. Have you looked again at the different options available to an | :46:10. | :46:11. | |
independent Scotland with regards to currency? The fiscal commission | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
produced a report for us which had a range of different options that were | :46:17. | :46:18. | |
available to an independent Scotland. What we did as the | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
Government, and it is the right thing to do, was to listen to | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
international expert opening in and to conclude what was the right thing | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
in the interests of the people of Scotland. And the preferred option | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
of the fiscal commission was to establish a currency zone where | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
Scotland and the rest of the UK would continue to use the same | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
currency. I understand that is your preferred option. But are the other | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
option Jew have looked at workable? Of course. The fiscal commission | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
made that clear. -- the other options you have looked at workable? | :46:52. | :47:02. | |
In relation to arrangements around about fiscal sustainability, it is | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
possible. So there is no reason not to join the euro other than a | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
political decision? It would involve a Scottish Government taking a | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
number of decisions not least of which would be to voluntarily join | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
the exchange rate mechanism of the European Union and we have no | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
intention of going down that route. We have decided that that is not one | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
we would pursue. My point about the arrangements that the fiscal | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
commission set out was that they put in place an integrated package of | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
measures and the Chancellor would have been better served if he had | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
actually looked at the integrated package of measures that the fiscal | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
commission set out, because it was very similar to the ground covered | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
by the Bank of England governor when he came to Scotland a couple of | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
weeks ago and set out the arrangement by which it would be | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
practical and possible to arrange a currency union between Scotland and | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
the rest of the UK. And the type of considerations that would have to be | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
in place to make that work. The chat a lot has taken the same position | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
you have taken on the euro. You have said the euro is workable but as a | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
Government you do not want to go down that road. Isn't the Chancellor | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
making the exact same point to you? A currency union could be workable, | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
but politically the Chancellor is saying now. The governor of the Bank | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
of England said it was perfectly workable to be completely | :48:17. | :48:18. | |
arrangements for a currency union, but what he said and which I accept | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
is that there are a number of additional factors you have to put | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
in place to ensure that can work and many of these factors, which the | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
substance of the report brought forward by the fiscal commission, | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
which covered the whole range of different issues around the | :48:35. | :48:35. | |
integration of the financial services market, and the issues | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
around fiscal sustainability. Is your position that the Chancellor is | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
bluffing? That is my position. What the Chancellor did not do on | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
Wednesday and I think he did not do this in relation to a question asked | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
by one of your colleagues, was set out the negative implications for | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
the rest of the 80 kingdom of his refusal to go down the route of the | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
currency union. -- the rest of the United Kingdom. He is saying I will | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
lumber you with ?500 million worth of additional transaction costs if I | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
for Scotland not to use the pound sterling. What that attacks is the | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
canonical well-being of the rest of the United Kingdom and it makes | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
absolutely no sense. -- is the economic well-being. Scotland's oil | :49:17. | :49:24. | |
and gas resources, our whiskey resources, would not be part of the | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
balance of payments of the sterling zone. So the Chancellor has got to | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
think much more widely about the implications of this issue for the | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
rest are beginning to kingdom and come to a sensible position. His | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
contribution on Thursday could and now we have been described as | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
sensible or measured. Isn't the problem for you that it is not just | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
the Unionist whose your position is wrong, it is also several members of | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
the Yes Scotland campaign, such as Colin Fox. Patrick Harvie of the | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
Green Party. They all believe in independent Scotland should have its | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
own independent currency. Why are they wrong? That is their position. | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
They are entitled to argue for their position. What I must do is explain | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
the position of the two Scottish Government -- of the Scottish | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
Government that has been formed by taking the opinions of international | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
economist who have made a six and shall -- who have made a substantial | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
contribution to the debate in Scotland. For the Chancellor to say | :50:21. | :50:31. | |
on one hand he would not negotiate and then to come to Scotland with | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
the diktats has caused the problem in this country that Scotland will | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
not be pushed around by a UK Chancellor. Other people are saying | :50:44. | :50:55. | |
a different option should be looked at, isn't that a form of bullying in | :50:56. | :51:03. | |
itself? It is not. We have to put forward a comprehensive and | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
considered proposal about how Scotland can become an independent | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
country. We have worked hard for years to put that together, it is | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
what is published, it represents the solid work we have put in place to | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
make sure Scotland has a workable plan to become an independent | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
country. I'd micro-thank you very much. I am joined by Alistair | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
Darling of the Better Together campaign. Jose Manuel Barroso is | :51:33. | :51:41. | |
saying it will be difficult for an independent Scotland to regain | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
independence because of countries like Spain. The consensus of | :51:48. | :51:56. | |
international opinion is that Scotland would have to reapply to | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
enter Europe. Councils in the European Union are anything but | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
straightforward. In any discussion you have you are always up against | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
the fact you have countries arguing their own corner, sometimes things | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
which have nothing to do with the subject in hand. The objectives of | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
countries like Spain for example which are very weary about | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
recognising any new countries, it would be anything but plain sailing. | :52:27. | :52:41. | |
-- wheelie. -- wary. Of course it is an advantage of the European Union | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
to have members within it but what Jose Manuel Barroso was saying today | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
is that the discussions that will take place will be anything but | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
plain sailing. I can see them dragging on for years. It takes an | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
inordinately long time to agree everything. Your view would not have | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
that. This would be the first time a country was breaking away from an | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
existing member state and then applying to get back in again. Alex | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
Salmond said he had an opinion that we would get in with no questions | :53:20. | :53:28. | |
asked but you are now being asked to trust this same person who said he | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
had a legal opinion when he did not. You are being asked to believe him | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
over a large number of people in the European Union who say it is | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
anything but plain sailing and you have to get 28 member states to | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
agree to the proposition which many of them would find difficult. Taking | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
the politics out of it, it is the currency union the logical position | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
foreign independent Scotland? Now, I do not think it would stack up for | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
Scotland or the rest of the United Kingdom. You need three ingredients, | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
the banking union whereby in effect the rest of the UK which would be | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
ten times larger than Scotland would have to underwrite Scotland's | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
banking system. Secondly, you need the system for large sums of money | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
moving it from those areas doing well to those that are perhaps | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
struggling. They may be difficult but they are doable? You need a | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
banking union, a facility to transfer money and both sides to | :54:38. | :54:46. | |
agree the others tax and spending. What you see here is something that, | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
if you have a currency union it takes two countries to agree to | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
something, there is no law that says they must do it. I foresee | :54:56. | :55:04. | |
difficulties. At the moment we have a single currency, the pound, it | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
works because we have a political union, and economic union, we can | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
transfer money around from richer too put pads and so on. We are being | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
asked to give up that pound what we now need to do is find a replacement | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
for the pound, something that Alex Salmond cannot or will not tell us. | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
Do you think there can be any negotiation between the Scottish | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
Government and Mark Carney going forward? It is a political decision | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
to be taken by the rest of the UK and Scotland in the event we vote | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
for a break in September. The bank of England can only exist because | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
the government stands behind it. I know that full well from my | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
experience. The bank of England can only fix interest rates. In terms of | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
the money it spends, that comes at the moment from UK Government. It is | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
a political decision at the end of the day. The plans for a currency | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
union in economic terms simply do not stand up. I'd macro there is an | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
economic place for the rest of the UK from what the Chancellor has | :56:23. | :56:31. | |
said. We sell more goods and services to the European Union than | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
anyone else in the world but we are not joining the euro. We sell a lot | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
of goods and services to America but we are not joining the dollar. Scots | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
stand to lose far more from independence than firms south of the | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
border. At the moment they can sell any rare any market of 63 million | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
people because of the economic and political union. The Nationalists | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
want to break that up and are now saying let's invent something to | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
patch up the difficulties. Quite clearly a currency union is off of | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
the table, we need to know what a replacement for the pound would be. | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
It is not good enough for us to trust the Nationalists to simply say | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
trust us, we are right and the rest of the world is wrong. If this is | :57:25. | :57:33. | |
your negotiating position... I am not negotiating, I am simply | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
pointing out what is what. Should we get a common position from the | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
parties and Better Together on other issues like whether or not the rest | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
of the UK would support Scottish entry into the EU for instance? The | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
Edinburgh agreement was an agreement to hold the referendum and abide by | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
the outcome. Whichever way Scotland votes there is no going back on | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
that. It is not very constructive to say we are not going to negotiate on | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
this big issue. Surely on an issue like the currency, the single | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
biggest issue which will affect people's mortgages, savings, how | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
much they will be on loans, isn't it better to know now whether or not | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
there would be a currency union? The fact of the matter is they will not | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
be. Will be be other common positions? It must be better to note | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
the common positions. Can we expect a common position on the situation | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
as regards Scotland's EU membership, issued energy for | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
existence? With Europe, whatever position the UK or parts of the UK | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
were to take, the matter is not in our hands, it is in the hands of 27 | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
other member states who have their own internal politics and jockeying | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
for position on a whole range of interests. It does not have to be | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
about the merits of Scotland, it can be about the price of all of all of | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
oil, agriculture policy and so on. Both sides are agreed that whatever | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
the result in September, there is no going back on it, no second chances, | :59:25. | :59:31. | |
we abide by it. To a large extent Scotland will be throwing itself on | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
the mercy of the decisions taken by 27 other member states who, frankly, | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
have their own battles to fight. There are so many uncertainties | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
here. We have a massive amount of risk and uncertainty which will cost | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
lives and ones we do not need to take. A row over the weekends are | :59:52. | :59:59. | |
funded is threatening to split local government down the middle. Several | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
local government say they are not getting their fair share from the | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
Scottish Government. This has brought COSLA to boiling point. Two | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
big councils have said they planned to leave if things do not change. As | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
a local government correspondent has been finding out, some Labour | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
councillors say DIY is needed to fix COSLA or they will leave. It is the | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
time of year when councillors have been deciding what to spend cash on. | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
Times are hard for all councils just now but most still find money to | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
support their local priorities. In Renfrewshire last week's local | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
budget helped the scheme for this business to grow. But there were | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
many hard choices to balance the books. Renfrewshire gets ?300 | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
million per year from the Scottish Government but it says it should be | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
getting far more. Renfrewshire I does not get a fair share from the | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
Scottish Government, 18 million less than we should be on the average | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
council when they should be getting more because we have the our fair | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
share of problems in terms of deprivation. Councils get 80p of | :01:17. | :01:25. | |
every pound they spend. The minister responsible for councils used to | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
read Renfrewshire himself and has limited sympathy with his successors | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
claims. We all argue for the indicators that best suit us which | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
is natural. There are some rural areas with a geeky thing population | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
and others with an increasing one. The current system has served us | :01:51. | :02:00. | |
well over the past number of years. This disagreement is so serious it | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
threatens to rupture COSLA, the Lizzie Power struggle, Labour leads | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
16 of the 32 councils and gets COSLA most of its cash. -- their is a | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
power struggle. Coors light cannot take a stand on issues that divide | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
councils like the funding deal. -- COSLA. We are a huge contributor to | :02:25. | :02:35. | |
growth and a huge contributor to the economy. We need to see that | :02:36. | :02:44. | |
reflected at a Scottish level. Aberdeen and Renfrewshire are | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
expected to be joined by more Labour councils. These other areas are also | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
set to decide whether to quit. Dumfries and Galloway has also | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
separately said it may leave. Some fear a big split in the body that is | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
meant to help them all will ultimately do little good. If COSLA | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
did not exist then councils would want to invent it. I do not think it | :03:12. | :03:22. | |
is good enough for a few councils not to get their way and to walk | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
away, I think that would leave them in a poor place. Critics believe it | :03:28. | :03:35. | |
could sometimes take a stronger line on controversial issues and if those | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Labour critics do not get the repeal is they want, there could be a real | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
split in the collective voice of local government. You are watching | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
Sunday Politics in Scotland now let's join Andrew Kerr for the news. | :03:51. | :04:01. | |
Good afternoon. The president of The European Commission has said it | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
would be extremely difficult if not impossible for an independent | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
Scotland to join the EU. Jose Manuel Barroso said Scotland would have to | :04:11. | :04:19. | |
apply for membership. It would need agreement from the member states. | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
The battle over the future of the pound in an independent Scotland is | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
continuing this lunchtime. John Swinney said the Chancellor was | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
bluffing in his refusal to countenance a sterling currency | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
union postindependence ad called for talks with the Treasury to look at | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
the issue. But the leader of the Better Together campaign said a | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
currency union would not stack up for Scotland or the United Kingdom. | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
Team GB's men curlers have lost their penultimate match of the round | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
robin stage at the Winter Olympics, going down 7-6 to Norway. The defeat | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
for skip David Murdoch and his team leaves them on five wins and three | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
defeats. That is what happens with these games. A lot of these games | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
are 50-50. Unfortunately we missed a couple of crucial shots today to get | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
in front and start dominating them. Now let's take a look at the weather | :05:16. | :05:16. | |
with Gillian. Now let's | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
A cracking afternoon to come for most of us as a ridge of high | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
pressure delivers blue skies and sunshine. A few showers across | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
western Scotland and more frequent showers over the far north of the | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
mainland and the Northern Isles, accompanied by strong winds and snow | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
on the hills. For most places, crisp sunshine. Around 60 sea sand with | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
light winds that will not feel bad in the sunshine. -- around six | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
Celsius. A risk of ice. Back to Gary. | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
Thank you. In a moment we will discuss the big events coming up in | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
Holyrood but let's take a look back at the beach in 60 seconds. Scots | :05:59. | :06:08. | |
are less concerned about immigration than those south of the border | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
according to a new survey. However, 58% of respondents here still said | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
they favoured few new arrivals. The majority favour less immigration | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
rather than more. But they are less likely to take that view than people | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
in England and Wales. ScottishPower announced it would be doubling the | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
capacity of its hydroelectric power plants in the north of Scotland. | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Drivers are facing a bumpy ride at the moment and it emerged this week | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
that Scottish councils are spending more than ?1600 per day compensating | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
those whose cars have been damaged by potholes. Plans to appoint a | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
named Guardian for a Scottish child was opposed by the Church of | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
Scotland, saying the idea would diminish the role of parents. MSPs | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
will turn to Hollywood this week for the final stage of the debate. | :07:03. | :07:15. | |
-- Hollywood. -- Holyrood. Let's have a look at the papers | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
ahead of the week. Joining me this week is polling meal. Good | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
afternoon. They start with the remarks from Jose Manuel Barroso. | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
Clearly a significant intervention, is it going to be a setback to the | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
Yes campaign? To have him say that it would be difficult if not | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
impossible for an independent Scotland to secure membership of the | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
European Union? It is not a significant contribution. It is | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
nonsense. His credibility just goes down and down. The one thing being | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
you is is an expansionist organisation. They have been | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
desperate to take all kinds of countries in and we are in a | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
desperate to take all kinds of countries in and situation, a stable | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
Christie, a country with major resources and controlling a huge | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
maritime territory. A country that would be a net contributor and he | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
said no. There is argument is four but there are countries with vested | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
interests, secessionists concerns they might actually try and put the | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
brakes on this. Alistair Darling made the point that membership might | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
happen but it could take a long time. The Spanish Prime Minister | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
will have to and third to his fishermen who are going to be so | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
delighted if they even temporarily have Scotland out of the EU and | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Scotland has to say, you are not fishing in our territory. We have a | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
very strong bargaining position. And the noise coming out right now is | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
just politics in being you. Do we have to see this in the context of | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
Jose Manuel Barroso being a politician, some SNP politicians are | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
saying that he is playing politics. I think it is clear now that | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
Scotland, and the new member states, would have to apply. So at least the | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
voters know there would have to be an application, and on what terms? | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
The statement today, I can understand why he is saying it could | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
be difficult. Because we know that politics will get played in Europe, | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
although it is inconceivable in the long run that Scotland would not be | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
a member. The question is, how long would it take? Perhaps he have to | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
and so the question as to why he is saying that it is impossible for | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
Scotland to be a member. -- perhaps he has to. The voters will have to | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
accept it will not happen immediately. There may be protracted | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
negotiation that it is up to other EU member states to make that | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
decision. Because voters will be aware that all member states must | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
agree for Scotland to be part of the EU. I am perspective on it is that, | :09:46. | :09:56. | |
in the long run, an independent Scotland would join the EU. But how | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
long would it take? Would it be palatable to most people? Let's talk | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
about currency. Given interviews today, it will dominate next week as | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
well. Alex Salmond is making a speech to business leaders in | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
Aberdeen tomorrow. A couple of newspaper today are focusing on this | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
as well. The Sunday Herald is one of them. Is this, in your view, | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
bullying from Westminster? Or are Westminster politicians right to | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
say, this is our line in the sand? It is entirely predictable. The | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
British establishment is determined to hold on to Scotland for a very | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
good use and is -- for a very good reasons. We have many resources. We | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
are aware of the key their nuclear bombs. They will do and say anything | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
to try to get a No vote. So you do not believe them when they say it is | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
in the best interests of the rest of the UK for the UK to stay together? | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
Now. It would not be my first option. -- Calmac. The UK has | :10:58. | :11:08. | |
serious debt problems. It has lots of difficulties coming down the | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
line. -- no. It is saying it is going to sacrifice this balance of | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
payments contribution? Is it that a lament of Scotland's contribution | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
towards debt? We have got the Sunday Times as well today. They say they | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
have spoken to some business leaders or at least the economic and social | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
research Council has, and some of those business leaders are worried | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
about lack of certainty in the event of a Yes vote. One or two have | :11:33. | :11:34. | |
talked about leaving Scotland. We have heard the stories before. Does | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
this class as scaremongering? I think that both sides, the yes and | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
no campaign, are aware that the currency is the most critical issue | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
for voters. So you will see this more. Is it a bluff or not? And the | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
former Labour politician, are you comfortable with all of the | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
pronouncements you saw this week? It starts with the Governor of the Bank | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
of England's declaration that it is not impossible but the terms of the | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
currency union are quite strong. It is clear to me that even if the SNP | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
were to win the argument about currency, they will have to concede | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
a great deal of sovereignty to get it. And what in the white paper are | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
they prepared to negotiate to get it? We have politicians saying we | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
are not prepared to take the risk based on this assessment. | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Therefore, I think the onus is on the Yes campaign took provides | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
uncertainty around this. The problem for the Yes campaign in the weeks | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
and months to come is that there is no unity in their side. Around what | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
the alternative currency would be. So, of course, as an individual, I | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
would want the best for Scotland whatever Scotland voted for. I think | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
voters, hardly anyone has talked about the voter in all of this | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
debate about currency. We need to know the implications, what is the | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
currency and what is the alternative currency if the SNP did not win the | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
argument and Howard that impact people's pensions? From the point of | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
view of ordinary people, yes. -- Howard that impact people's | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
pensions? The options would be either using the pound but not in | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
the currency union, or having a Scottish pound which is pegged to | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
sterling, which means interchanges the same. That is as it applies to | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
the individual. What you will find is that, irrespective of what comes | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
from the Government, you will find more work on deciding which is the | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
preferred plan B, or for some people it might be the plan A, coming from | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
people on the yes side. Not necessarily SNP ministers? I don't | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
know. That would answer your question. When you talk about | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
negotiation and the onus being on the SNP, is it right that the | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
Westminster Government should say, seven months out, here is our line | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
in the sand? Voters once uncertainty around the debate from both sides. | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
It is going to be negotiating, isn't it? It is going to be two | :14:15. | :14:22. | |
negotiations. I am sorry, we have to leave things there. There is a lot | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
to talk about, but not enough time. That is all from us this week. I | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
will be back at the same time next week. Goodbye. | :14:32. | :14:37. |