13/04/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


13/04/2014

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To Aternoon, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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As MPs head off for their Easter break, campaigning for the European

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elections in six weeks' time gets underway.

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In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the issues at stake on May

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22nd with senior party figures from the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal

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Democrats and UKIP. Glasgow 2014 has announced that it

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will not demolish the Red Road flats live at the opening ceremony.

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And our vote for Scotland, not the SNP. Alex Salmond's last conference

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speech before the referendum. Here in the studio we have Syed

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Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard

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Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader

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of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of

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communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us

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their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they

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drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed.

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Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is

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about. The vote to choose members of the

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European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same

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day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional

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representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.

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What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has

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grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or

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grown. A vet of the EU commissioners reject nearly all EU legislation and

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the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price

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caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food

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regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.

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Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our

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relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have

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a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out

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referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.

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Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative

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MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,

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really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.

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Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,

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vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,

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fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing

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patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian

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roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting

:03:56.:03:59.

with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal

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Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah

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Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are

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about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

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Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

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help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

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bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,

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but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's

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prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

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British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

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O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

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era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

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designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

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hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

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European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

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out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

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That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

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Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

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selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

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the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

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can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

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wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

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and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

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leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

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We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an

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example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.

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Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip

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to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think

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of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European

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Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David

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Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,

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he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside

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him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I

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gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our

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supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to

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change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a

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referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

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idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

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that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

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States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

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referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

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confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

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negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

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the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

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demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

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leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

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changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

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perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

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say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

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deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

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Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

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can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

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of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

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apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

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Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

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business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

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probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

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in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

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necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

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says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

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rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

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vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

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was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of

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reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

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about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

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forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

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backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

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to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

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Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

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He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

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a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

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have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

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gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

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Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

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say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

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you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

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is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

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morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

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for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

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Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

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is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

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essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

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EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

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voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

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over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

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out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

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for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it

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may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

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We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,

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our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we

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not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to

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immigration. We have been open to people across the world for

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centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to

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pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are

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three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,

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and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,

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and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that

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only this week the office for National said that they did not

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collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra

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people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size

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of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over

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the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I

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accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In

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the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the

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EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have

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to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute

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positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I

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will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David

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Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they

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really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of

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thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see

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now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control

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and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And

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that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would

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leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of

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Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are

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you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here

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today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and

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work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are

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wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with

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countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

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Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

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join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

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which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

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free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

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saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

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British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

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to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

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You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

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have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

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they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

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were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

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benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

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they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

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more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A

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spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

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Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

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that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

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it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU

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states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

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Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

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was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

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again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

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Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

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million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

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didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

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Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

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trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

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count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

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people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

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habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

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come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

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country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

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it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

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multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

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are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

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control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

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In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

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businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

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place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

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Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

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Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their

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backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might

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not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often

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come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it

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represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative

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Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it

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character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther

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and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics

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between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk

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time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have

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trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade

:18:14.:18:16.

deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United

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States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in

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favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a

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moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We

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have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants

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coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.

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How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.

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Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout

:18:51.:18:55.

in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs

:18:56.:18:58.

spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we

:18:59.:19:03.

undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we

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speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the

:19:09.:19:12.

Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

:19:13.:19:17.

peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

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together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

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Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

:19:29.:19:32.

sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

:19:33.:19:36.

Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

:19:37.:19:41.

doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

:19:42.:19:45.

someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

:19:46.:19:48.

peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

:19:49.:19:52.

admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

:19:53.:19:57.

Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

:19:58.:20:01.

don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

:20:02.:20:10.

said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:11.:20:13.

Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

:20:14.:20:18.

but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:19.:20:23.

carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

:20:24.:20:27.

over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

:20:28.:20:32.

what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:33.:20:36.

is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:37.:20:42.

and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

:20:43.:20:48.

keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

:20:49.:20:54.

Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

:20:55.:20:58.

issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

:20:59.:21:03.

Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

:21:04.:21:08.

foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

:21:09.:21:13.

important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:14.:21:21.

in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:22.:21:26.

Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:27.:21:33.

up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

:21:34.:21:38.

opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:39.:21:44.

against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

:21:45.:21:50.

on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

:21:51.:21:56.

We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:21:57.:22:00.

people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

:22:01.:22:05.

is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

:22:06.:22:10.

to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

:22:11.:22:14.

in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

:22:15.:22:21.

who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

:22:22.:22:24.

important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

:22:25.:22:31.

that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

:22:32.:22:35.

true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

:22:36.:22:40.

controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

:22:41.:22:43.

Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have

:22:44.:22:50.

"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal

:22:51.:22:53.

Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is

:22:54.:22:58.

mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we

:22:59.:23:01.

must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an

:23:02.:23:06.

awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We

:23:07.:23:10.

don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role

:23:11.:23:14.

for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.

:23:15.:23:19.

You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of

:23:20.:23:24.

dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common

:23:25.:23:30.

quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so

:23:31.:23:34.

they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a

:23:35.:23:39.

European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those

:23:40.:23:43.

jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the

:23:44.:23:46.

Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since

:23:47.:23:51.

the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to

:23:52.:23:55.

try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on

:23:56.:24:00.

Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries

:24:01.:24:03.

in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to

:24:04.:24:08.

keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the

:24:09.:24:12.

Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,

:24:13.:24:16.

retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse

:24:17.:24:23.

retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers

:24:24.:24:27.

-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign

:24:28.:24:30.

Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:31.:24:37.

quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:38.:24:40.

Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:41.:24:45.

Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:46.:24:49.

the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:50.:24:52.

when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:53.:24:55.

cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:24:56.:25:00.

not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:25:01.:25:05.

that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:06.:25:10.

Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:11.:25:16.

the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:17.:25:19.

the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:20.:25:25.

not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?

:25:26.:25:29.

I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:30.:25:33.

the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:34.:25:35.

work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our

:25:36.:25:39.

non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:40.:25:45.

together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:46.:25:51.

about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:52.:25:58.

the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The

:25:59.:26:05.

trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:06.:26:10.

expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:11.:26:14.

actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:15.:26:19.

unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:20.:26:23.

cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:24.:26:29.

I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:30.:26:36.

other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We

:26:37.:26:42.

voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:43.:26:47.

haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:48.:26:50.

Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:51.:26:56.

You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:26:57.:27:00.

don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:27:01.:27:05.

attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn

:27:06.:27:09.

up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,

:27:10.:27:13.

UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they

:27:14.:27:18.

didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party

:27:19.:27:22.

decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP

:27:23.:27:26.

representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me

:27:27.:27:33.

saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are

:27:34.:27:39.

quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord

:27:40.:27:44.

and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't

:27:45.:27:49.

you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were

:27:50.:27:54.

jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back

:27:55.:28:00.

?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about

:28:01.:28:03.

getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a

:28:04.:28:07.

secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do

:28:08.:28:12.

wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People

:28:13.:28:18.

who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and

:28:19.:28:22.

that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the

:28:23.:28:27.

allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up

:28:28.:28:30.

when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of

:28:31.:28:34.

using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We

:28:35.:28:40.

were the first British political party to have independent audits of

:28:41.:28:45.

our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.

:28:46.:28:51.

The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the

:28:52.:28:54.

Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:55.:28:59.

own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:29:00.:29:02.

charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:03.:29:06.

lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:07.:29:11.

had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:12.:29:15.

ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:16.:29:21.

aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We

:29:22.:29:26.

can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:27.:29:30.

Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:31.:29:35.

they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:36.:29:41.

burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:42.:29:47.

Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's

:29:48.:29:53.

financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:54.:29:58.

financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:29:59.:30:04.

all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:05.:30:08.

the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:09.:30:12.

of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:13.:30:16.

enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:17.:30:20.

Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:21.:30:24.

Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:25.:30:28.

properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:29.:30:34.

that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:35.:30:38.

sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:39.:30:42.

?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5

:30:43.:30:48.

billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:49.:30:52.

I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:53.:30:57.

ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:30:58.:31:01.

money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:02.:31:03.

Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:04.:31:08.

have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:09.:31:17.

Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He

:31:18.:31:24.

is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:25.:31:28.

help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:29.:31:32.

the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:33.:31:36.

and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:37.:31:42.

victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:43.:31:49.

future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:50.:31:54.

Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:55.:31:57.

commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:31:58.:32:06.

if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:07.:32:10.

fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:11.:32:15.

led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It

:32:16.:32:17.

is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:18.:32:21.

the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:22.:32:26.

for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:27.:32:29.

agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:30.:32:34.

Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:35.:32:41.

China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:42.:32:46.

action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:47.:32:51.

No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:52.:32:56.

matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:32:57.:33:01.

progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:02.:33:08.

need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:09.:33:10.

EU. We need More powers for Brussels or not? I

:33:11.:33:30.

think the balance is about right. In some areas, we would like to see it

:33:31.:33:37.

slimmed down a bit. I'm not sure whether the EU should be... I think

:33:38.:33:44.

the EU should concentrate on their big challenges like climate change

:33:45.:33:49.

and the economy, a pollution, catching criminals. If we fritter

:33:50.:33:59.

away at political capital on interfering on national matters, we

:34:00.:34:04.

do not have the support. Would you still want to join the euro? We want

:34:05.:34:14.

the Eurozone to be... Which you want to join the euro one day? If it

:34:15.:34:21.

suits the British economy. Now is not the time. The idea in principle

:34:22.:34:29.

of a single currency has advantages. We are not ruling it out for ever.

:34:30.:34:36.

What would our relationship with Europe in the future if UKIP cots is

:34:37.:34:46.

way and we left? We would be trading partners with Europe. Would we be

:34:47.:34:58.

Norway? We would be in a stronger position than Norway. Our biggest

:34:59.:35:13.

exports are services and they would not have to agree to free trade in

:35:14.:35:17.

services. They still haven't and we are inside the EU. Let me read you

:35:18.:35:24.

something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:25.:35:27.

after our exit. Germany would demand not less. That was Digby Jones who

:35:28.:35:35.

said that. He is talking about goods, not services. You have to

:35:36.:35:43.

accept all the EU rules without having any say. Let me give you

:35:44.:35:52.

another one. No, no. Is it not looking forward, Mission impossible

:35:53.:36:01.

for David Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of powers

:36:02.:36:06.

that would satisfy you? My father was a bus driver. The only reason I

:36:07.:36:14.

am here today is because he told me you can achieve anything you want if

:36:15.:36:18.

you work hard. He also told be not to listen to doubters. If people

:36:19.:36:22.

tell you something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations,

:36:23.:36:27.

not yours. They said that we could not veto a new EU treaty, we did it.

:36:28.:36:41.

Overall, we are paying more into the European budget. People say we

:36:42.:36:50.

cannot achieve reform, but we have given the examples of it. Britain

:36:51.:36:55.

was an open country looking outward into the world. What the

:36:56.:37:03.

Conservatives now, trapped by their backbenchers, they are looking

:37:04.:37:15.

inwards, allowing the rise of UKIP. We are going to have to stop now.

:37:16.:37:28.

Thank you for a spirited debate. Just gone three o'clock. You're

:37:29.:37:33.

watching Sunday politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland to

:37:34.:37:36.

leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:37.:37:42.

Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:37:43.:37:45.

programme. In the last hour, Glasgow 2014 has cancelled plans for the

:37:46.:37:49.

live demolition of the Red Road flats during the opening ceremony of

:37:50.:37:52.

the Commonwealth Games. A vote for Scotland, not for the

:37:53.:37:56.

SNP. Alex Salmond reaches out to disaffected Labour voters in his

:37:57.:37:58.

message to the final party conference before the

:37:59.:38:06.

a yes vote in September is not a vote for an SNP government in 2016.

:38:07.:38:15.

It is our vote for a government in Scotland that the people in Scotland

:38:16.:38:16.

have chosen. Good afternoon. Within the last

:38:17.:38:25.

hour, it's been confirmed that controversial plans to demolish five

:38:26.:38:28.

blocks of flats on Glasgow's Red Road, as part of the Commonwealth

:38:29.:38:31.

Games opening ceremony, have been scrapped. The Chief Executive of

:38:32.:38:34.

Glasgow 2014 said the decision had been made on the basis of concerns

:38:35.:38:37.

about safety and security. It comes after a petition to halt the plans

:38:38.:38:42.

collected over 17,000 signatures. Joining me now from the newsroom is

:38:43.:38:45.

our Commonwealth Games correspondent, Chris McLaughlin.

:38:46.:38:51.

In the past hour, we have had this news and a statement from the chief

:38:52.:39:02.

executive of Glasgow 2014 seeing that the absolute priority was

:39:03.:39:10.

safety and this event would only happen if it was safe to do so. He

:39:11.:39:15.

says, it has become clear that opinions have been expressed which

:39:16.:39:19.

have changed the safety and security context. The demolition of the Red

:39:20.:39:24.

Road flats will not know picture as part of the opening ceremony.

:39:25.:39:30.

Glasgow City Council see the support the organising committee's

:39:31.:39:36.

decision, public safety is paramount. Glasgow Housing

:39:37.:39:41.

Association has said, public safety is our priority. Demolition will be

:39:42.:39:54.

rescheduled. Why wasn't there further consultation before this

:39:55.:39:57.

announcement was made with the local residents, the people of Glasgow?

:39:58.:40:04.

And why are Glasgow 2014 announcing this on the eve of a milestone to

:40:05.:40:10.

moral of 100 days to go? News they would not have been looking to

:40:11.:40:16.

release ahead of that milestone. This has universal support of those

:40:17.:40:21.

behind the Commonwealth Games, including the Scottish government.

:40:22.:40:25.

Is there any political reaction? The local Labour MSP has said that she

:40:26.:40:35.

supports it and is glad the decision has been made. But this is just the

:40:36.:40:39.

start of the furore surrounding this. Initially, people thought it

:40:40.:40:46.

was strange, but possibly a stroke of genius. Others thought it was a

:40:47.:40:51.

terrible idea. But now the question will be why was there no further

:40:52.:40:57.

consultation before this announcement was made?

:40:58.:41:09.

Joining me from our Dundee studio is former SSP MSP Carolyn Leckie who

:41:10.:41:12.

began the public petition against the demoliton.

:41:13.:41:16.

I am relieved and very pleased. I think it is great, a sensible

:41:17.:41:24.

decision. I think everybody will be believed and this 17,000 people who

:41:25.:41:32.

expressed their views the petition -- via the petition will be

:41:33.:41:38.

relieved. I think because the organisers have changed their mind,

:41:39.:41:42.

is superbly some kind of consensus has developed behind-the-scenes. --

:41:43.:41:54.

presumably. I think it should be welcomed. It is an indication that

:41:55.:41:59.

people powered can be effective and possibly highlights that, in

:42:00.:42:04.

Scotland, we can look forward to a more pirates participitive

:42:05.:42:21.

democracy. It seems as though this decision has been made on safety

:42:22.:42:29.

grounds? I can understand that the games organisers would need to find

:42:30.:42:34.

a reason for changing your mind without anyone being blamed. Is this

:42:35.:42:42.

a face-saving exercise? I'm not worried about why they have changed

:42:43.:42:45.

their mind, I am just glad they have changed their mind, they have

:42:46.:42:50.

listened and responded. The explosion as part of the ceremony

:42:51.:42:53.

will not go ahead. I just hope that the community of the Red Road flats,

:42:54.:43:02.

present and past, are not forgotten about and some of the promises that

:43:03.:43:06.

were made in the last week about regeneration, again, of an area in

:43:07.:43:15.

Glasgow are followed through. The initial justification for this was

:43:16.:43:19.

that the council were highlighting regeneration. They say, it remains

:43:20.:43:27.

our intention to dedicate a part of the opening ceremony detail of the

:43:28.:43:35.

social history of Glasgow. Is that something that you think is

:43:36.:43:39.

important that unlike yes, I think it is. One of the issues that needs

:43:40.:43:53.

to be discussed, full, -- though, is that regeneration can only work is

:43:54.:43:57.

if there is regeneration of wealth in Glasgow. There have been various

:43:58.:44:03.

attempts at regeneration of Glasgow, at that fundamental inequality has

:44:04.:44:08.

not been addressed. Various housing projects are not going to succeed if

:44:09.:44:11.

underlying poverty is not dealt with. The council would say that the

:44:12.:44:17.

regeneration of the east end of Glasgow is part of Glasgow 2014, and

:44:18.:44:22.

an important step towards that. Ultimately, these flats are going to

:44:23.:44:26.

come down. Like previous demolitions, there will be a crowd

:44:27.:44:31.

there to watch. What is the difference between that and

:44:32.:44:33.

featuring as part of the opening ceremony? It was distasteful and

:44:34.:44:42.

disrespectful to beam that is entertainment around the world.

:44:43.:44:51.

Demolitions are conducted quietly because of previous safety issues.

:44:52.:44:55.

It seems contradictory for them to then make a huge spectacle of the

:44:56.:45:00.

demolition of the Red Road flats. Also, the issue of the families,

:45:01.:45:10.

asylum seekers families, five flats are to be demolished, however, the

:45:11.:45:18.

sixth block will remain standing with asylum seeker families in it.

:45:19.:45:24.

Housing that the world has been told is unfit for human habitation. That

:45:25.:45:30.

issue as to be addressed with a border agency.

:45:31.:45:35.

We heard that tomorrow is a milestone, 100 days until the

:45:36.:45:39.

opening ceremony. You think that the announcement today and the furore

:45:40.:45:43.

over the demolition is going to overshadow what should have been an

:45:44.:45:46.

important moment for the games organisers? I think it would have

:45:47.:45:54.

overshadowed it if they had not changed their minds. I do not think

:45:55.:46:00.

that anybody who signed this petition was seeing this as

:46:01.:46:04.

something we wanted to win, just as something they wanted to stop from

:46:05.:46:09.

happening. Hopefully, this announcement will mean that they can

:46:10.:46:12.

do what ever publicity they want to do and it will not be overshadowed

:46:13.:46:17.

as much as it would have been if they had not changed their minds. I

:46:18.:46:22.

think it is a positive thing and I am really respectful of everybody

:46:23.:46:28.

involved in the decision. Thank you for joining us.

:46:29.:46:34.

Alex Salmond has appealed to disaffected Labour voters to support

:46:35.:46:37.

a yes vote in September's referendum and then back what he says will be a

:46:38.:46:41.

rejuvenated party at subsequent elections. It was part of the SNP

:46:42.:46:44.

leader's pitch to those struggling to back his position on

:46:45.:46:47.

independence. In his speech to the party faithful in Aberdeen, Mr

:46:48.:46:50.

Salmond also tried to reach out to women, another group that so far

:46:51.:46:53.

isn't wholeheartedly supporting his plans. He promoted two female

:46:54.:46:56.

ministers into his cabinet and talked about delivering childcare

:46:57.:46:59.

that would be the envy of the world. I'll speak to Alex Salmond shortly,

:47:00.:47:02.

but first Glenn Campbell reports from Aberdeen.

:47:03.:47:25.

The S is celebrating its 80th birthday. -- the SNP. And one

:47:26.:47:39.

leading light turned 50 today. But for John Swinney, the big

:47:40.:47:43.

celebration of his life will come in September if there is a yes vote. I

:47:44.:47:48.

think we will win the referendum in September. Why are you so confident?

:47:49.:47:53.

What we are seeing is a strengthening of the yes position, a

:47:54.:47:58.

narrowing of the gap. We are still behind in the opinion polls and we

:47:59.:48:03.

have to close that gap. This party still has much work to do to

:48:04.:48:09.

persuade a majority of voters to go for independence. If they are to

:48:10.:48:12.

finish over the winning line in September, the leadership knows that

:48:13.:48:18.

it must persuade voters who do not normally back the SNP to say yes to

:48:19.:48:24.

independence. That is what this weekend has been all about for the

:48:25.:48:29.

SNP, trying to reach out to potential supporters in other

:48:30.:48:38.

political tribes. For everyone out there with Labour in your heart, the

:48:39.:48:44.

message is clear. Vote yes and reclaim the Labour Party.

:48:45.:48:51.

The Nationalists reckon Labour supporters could be attracted to the

:48:52.:48:55.

independence cause with the thought that it might end Conservative rule.

:48:56.:49:10.

Those days will be gone for good. By appointing more women to Cabinet the

:49:11.:49:17.

SNP is seeking to make independence more female friendly. The party

:49:18.:49:23.

reckons its commitment to removing nuclear weapons from Scotland is

:49:24.:49:29.

evil when. In less than six months' time if we bought yes we will not be

:49:30.:49:34.

in the protest business any more. We will be in the removal business.

:49:35.:49:42.

They aim to get rid of Trident by 2020. That timetable is not set in

:49:43.:49:49.

stone. Everything will be discussed in the context of the negotiations

:49:50.:49:58.

that would follow eight Yes vote. But White Paper on independence was

:49:59.:50:03.

produced by the SNP in Government 80 years after the party was founded.

:50:04.:50:07.

There have been many false dawns in the history of the SNP. But a

:50:08.:50:13.

generation after Alex Salmond first to the leadership, the party is

:50:14.:50:17.

counting down to a fault that could result in Scotland is becoming an

:50:18.:50:21.

independent country. But what if the electorate sees no? The SNP are in a

:50:22.:50:34.

strong position. If they get are 40% thought they have demonstrably moved

:50:35.:50:40.

on the number of people supporting independence. There might be some

:50:41.:50:44.

discontent around the fringes, but Alex Salmond as a unifying figure in

:50:45.:50:50.

the party. I think he carries on. The birthday wish of the SNP this

:50:51.:50:56.

weekend is a victory in September. Even if they do not the party is not

:50:57.:51:00.

necessarily over for the Nationalists, however much they are

:51:01.:51:04.

opponents may wish it so. I am now joined by the First

:51:05.:51:12.

Minister Alex Salmond. Let me ask you about this decision

:51:13.:51:22.

on the red Road flats. It was only a couple of weeks ago your Government

:51:23.:51:27.

was supporting the idea. What is your reaction to the decision? It is

:51:28.:51:33.

a sensible decision that will be widely welcomed. There are two

:51:34.:51:41.

aspects. One is the safety aspect. Secondly there is a wider aspect.

:51:42.:51:47.

The games are a unifying force for Glasgow and Scotland. We want all

:51:48.:51:53.

aspects of the Commonwealth Games to bring Scotland's together. That is

:51:54.:51:56.

in the minds of the organising committee as well. The decision is

:51:57.:52:00.

sensible and should be supported. Carolyn Leckie told us that she

:52:01.:52:06.

thought the issue of security was a face-saving exercise. I heard the

:52:07.:52:11.

interview and Carolyn Leckie seemed a lot more positive than the BBC

:52:12.:52:16.

about the decision. I thought she responded very gracefully to the

:52:17.:52:20.

decision. The decision has been made on sensible grounds. I do not think

:52:21.:52:24.

that the safety issue is face-saving. It is very important.

:52:25.:52:31.

There is also the point about unifying. We are 100 days from the

:52:32.:52:36.

Commonwealth Games. We are about to have the greatest celebration of

:52:37.:52:41.

sport that Scotland has ever seen. All we are writing about is one

:52:42.:52:46.

aspect of the opening ceremony. If we had been in London we would have

:52:47.:52:52.

spent 20 times as much and had no security. This is one of the few

:52:53.:52:56.

games in recent history that is coming in on time and on budget.

:52:57.:53:00.

Glasgow is already blessed with some fantastic facilities. Gets behind

:53:01.:53:05.

the Commonwealth Games like everyone else and let us enjoy the occasion.

:53:06.:53:09.

I want to ask you about the speech you made yesterday.

:53:10.:53:12.

You have brought more women into your cabinets. Six months from the

:53:13.:53:17.

referendum, gnawing women are less likely to support eight Yes vote at

:53:18.:53:24.

this stage, as this opportunistic? It is not. It is something we have

:53:25.:53:28.

been pursuing for a large amount of time. It was indicated in the White

:53:29.:53:43.

Paper. It is an important symbol. You have been in power for seven

:53:44.:53:50.

years. With great respect and at its ministers in the SNP ministerial

:53:51.:54:01.

team. The qualities belief and the pensioners believe for the first

:54:02.:54:06.

time ever is a reserved responsibility. We are preparing for

:54:07.:54:12.

better things. This is the right time. We are trying to set an

:54:13.:54:16.

example. We are calling on company boards are right Scotland to have at

:54:17.:54:25.

least 40% of women represented to shore the difference changes in

:54:26.:54:29.

society as we mobilise the talent of women. The Government should lead by

:54:30.:54:37.

example. Do you personally have a problem when it comes to drawing

:54:38.:54:43.

support from one end? I do not think so. The SNP won a substantial

:54:44.:54:49.

majority of women voters at the last election. An opinion poll last week

:54:50.:54:54.

show the SNP were ahead amongst women voters for the Scottish

:54:55.:55:02.

parliament. Why are so many not convinced about the idea of

:55:03.:55:05.

independence? I was coming to that. It is not an issue about the SNP.

:55:06.:55:15.

Some people see that women are risk averse. I do not agree with that. It

:55:16.:55:22.

is more risk we are. People want to see substantive reasons for making

:55:23.:55:30.

the change to independence. Therefore they guess campaign, and

:55:31.:55:33.

the accent we are putting on childcare, will be meaningful to

:55:34.:55:43.

families. -- therefore the Yes campaign. We have got work to do. We

:55:44.:55:51.

are prepared to do that work. Let me ask you about childcare. You talked

:55:52.:55:57.

about childcare being the envy of the world. But no modelling was done

:55:58.:56:05.

to assess whether 104,000 women could be drawn into the workforce.

:56:06.:56:12.

Where did that figure come from? The 104,000 figure is if there is a 6%

:56:13.:56:20.

increase in participation of women in the workforce. The impact of

:56:21.:56:32.

having a transformation in childcare is to allow far more women to come

:56:33.:56:41.

into the workforce. But not 140,000. That is the problem. It is not a

:56:42.:56:52.

problem at all. Female participation in Sweden is 6% higher. It is

:56:53.:56:57.

reasonable to say that the reason for that is the extraordinary

:56:58.:57:01.

availability of childcare in Sweden which unfortunately we do not have

:57:02.:57:04.

in Scotland at the present moment. It is reasonable to argue that if

:57:05.:57:09.

you can produce that childcare in Scotland woman will be able to

:57:10.:57:13.

participate in the Scottish workforce.

:57:14.:57:19.

But it is the figures that are Big Issue. There are only 64,000 women

:57:20.:57:25.

in Scotland with children under the age of five who are economically

:57:26.:57:28.

inactive. You cannot use that figure of 104,000. It is not for one year.

:57:29.:57:39.

This is a rolling figure. When would you reach 104,000? I am trying to

:57:40.:57:46.

explain that. This is not a figure for one year. This is a cumulative

:57:47.:57:57.

figure. Men's participation in the workforce is 76%. Woman's

:57:58.:58:03.

participation is 70%. We should have the same participation of women in

:58:04.:58:11.

the workforce as we have men. Allow me to finish. That is where the

:58:12.:58:29.

figures come from. In the last year 65,000 more women have become

:58:30.:58:35.

employed in Scotland. If we can produce 65,001 year RUC loosely

:58:36.:58:39.

arguing we cannot get to 100,000 over a five-year period? This

:58:40.:58:46.

transformation in childcare is important to the future of Scotland.

:58:47.:58:56.

But the figures seen at a cost of ?1.2 billion would be needed to put

:58:57.:59:00.

this policy into action. You are seeing that the figures would reason

:59:01.:59:04.

700 million. How much would the policy cost? That is the additional

:59:05.:59:11.

cost over the five years, step-by-step. It will cost as an

:59:12.:59:20.

additional 700 million. The figure of quarter of a billion is being put

:59:21.:59:27.

in over the next two years. There is not a serious question about that

:59:28.:59:31.

part of the figures. There is substantial evidence coming into the

:59:32.:59:35.

Scottish Parliament committees. We are embarking upon improvement of

:59:36.:59:42.

childcare. The reason it is affordable and independence and not

:59:43.:59:45.

under devolution is that it releases all of the economic growth and

:59:46.:59:49.

taxation games when you control your own revenues. That is what makes

:59:50.:59:53.

childcare affordable and Sweden. That is what will make it affordable

:59:54.:59:59.

and Scotland. We can unleash that mobilisation of woman's talent and

:00:00.:00:06.

ability in the workforce as well as fundamentally transforming life

:00:07.:00:15.

prospects of children. This is one of the arguments for taking control

:00:16.:00:19.

of our revenues. You said you agree with many of the

:00:20.:00:28.

Labour party policies. Therefore Labour supporters can support you in

:00:29.:00:31.

the devolved elections and you can enact the policies that you see

:00:32.:00:37.

Labour are neglecting such as three descriptions. They do not need

:00:38.:00:40.

constitutional upheaval for that. To defend some of the social Democratic

:00:41.:00:46.

gains many people have chosen to vote for the SNP. But there are many

:00:47.:00:52.

other issues that require independence. To abolish nuclear

:00:53.:00:57.

weapons. To not participate in illegal wars. To stop the assault on

:00:58.:01:09.

the pure and disabled in Scotland. These are all things that you need

:01:10.:01:25.

independence for. That seems to me a compelling argument. If people

:01:26.:01:37.

thought there was going to be another Conservative Government the

:01:38.:01:39.

surge in support for independence would be even greater.

:01:40.:01:42.

You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Let's go to the news with

:01:43.:01:48.

Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. As you've been

:01:49.:01:52.

hearing, the demolition of the Red Road flats as part of the Glasgow

:01:53.:01:55.

2014 Commonwealth Games opening ceremony has been cancelled. The

:01:56.:01:58.

Chief Executive David Grevemberg said safety and security concerns

:01:59.:02:01.

had been expressed which led to a change of heart. The live demolition

:02:02.:02:06.

had been widely criticised as crass and insensitive, with thousands

:02:07.:02:11.

signing a petition against the plan. The pilots' Union BALPA has cold on

:02:12.:02:14.

the Civil Aviation Authority not to back down on new safety improvements

:02:15.:02:20.

to helicopters which fly offshore. It comes after industry body Oil and

:02:21.:02:24.

Gas UK said the changes risk damaging safety. The new rules were

:02:25.:02:29.

prompted by a review after four people died when a Super Puma

:02:30.:02:33.

crashed off Shetland last year. BALPA say they don't want the

:02:34.:02:43.

industry back-sliding. It just seems at the moment that oil and gas UK

:02:44.:02:52.

are bringing this if the agenda forward and that will affect their

:02:53.:03:01.

production. They are stated aim is safety. We think they should fully

:03:02.:03:10.

support the view on this. Three men have been detained by

:03:11.:03:13.

police in connection with the death of a man in Largs. William

:03:14.:03:16.

McLachlan's body was discovered outside his home in Holehouse Road

:03:17.:03:19.

yesterday morning. A 19-year-old and two 20-year-olds are now in custody.

:03:20.:03:22.

Football and St Johnstone have booked their place in the Scottish

:03:23.:03:25.

Cup semifinal with a 2-1 win over Aberdeen at Ibrox. The Dons had the

:03:26.:03:34.

better of the first half but couldn't hold on, with Stevie May

:03:35.:03:37.

scoring two goals for St Johnstone in the second half.

:03:38.:03:40.

That's it. Back to Gary. A unifying feature of the SNP

:03:41.:03:43.

conference has been the determination of the party to get

:03:44.:03:46.

rid of nuclear weapons on the Clyde. John Swinney, Nicola Sturgeon and

:03:47.:03:49.

Alex Salmond in turn reiterated that there would be no deal with

:03:50.:03:52.

Westminster which allowed Trident to remain in Scotland in return for a

:03:53.:03:55.

currency Union. Future defence arrangements is the subject of the

:03:56.:03:58.

second in our series of referendum animations.

:03:59.:04:07.

Right, gather round and pay attention. Today, we are going to

:04:08.:04:17.

talk about tactics. That is some assault course. The question is what

:04:18.:04:23.

kind of defence policy would Scotland have? All of Britain's

:04:24.:04:31.

nuclear missiles are based on the River Clyde. We are not trying to

:04:32.:04:37.

attack, they want to know what kind of military force Scotland would

:04:38.:04:42.

want, and be entitled to. It says in this document, we would get rid of

:04:43.:04:51.

nuclear reference. The idea is that they are unpopular and use --

:04:52.:05:00.

unusable. There is nowhere to base them if they are not on the Clyde,

:05:01.:05:05.

so the top brass in London will be determined to keep them here. The

:05:06.:05:11.

next thing in the plan of attack would be, what would Scotland be

:05:12.:05:17.

left with? Not much to protect the oil fields. Here is the SNP. Do they

:05:18.:05:24.

plan to share something, plan and build something? What if they don't

:05:25.:05:31.

want to share? And what will happen to the infantry? The idea seems to

:05:32.:05:36.

be that you can choose if you want to be in the British forces or the

:05:37.:05:43.

Scottish forces. So I can choose who I fight for? Something like that.

:05:44.:05:53.

Can I fight for Brazil? We have a lot of coastline to defend, is this

:05:54.:06:00.

wise? It says here we could join NATO. It has a defence pact, like if

:06:01.:06:13.

one are attacked, all are attacked. I don't see it happening. What about

:06:14.:06:19.

all the other jobs in defence, like in ship loading? We sell to the

:06:20.:06:29.

Westminster governments now, so why not in the future. But why would

:06:30.:06:34.

they want to buy from a foreign country? Does anyone know what

:06:35.:06:42.

happens if Scotland votes now. It is as you were. Iraq, Afghanistan and

:06:43.:06:48.

nuclear weapons, stuff we did not want in the first place. One of the

:06:49.:06:54.

proudest and most respected fighting forces in the world. And we would

:06:55.:07:03.

need our own intelligence forces. It's time to have a look at what's

:07:04.:07:07.

been happening this week and at what's coming up in the week ahead.

:07:08.:07:19.

I'm joined in the studio now by Murray Ritchie, former political

:07:20.:07:21.

editor at the Herald, and Lindsay McIntosh, political correspondent

:07:22.:07:23.

for the Times. Let's talk about the breaking news

:07:24.:07:27.

about the Red Road flats, their demolition will not feature in the

:07:28.:07:29.

opening ceremony, was this inevitable? Perhaps not inevitable,

:07:30.:07:38.

but a sense of relief that this embarrassing row is out of the way.

:07:39.:07:46.

I can remember in bed last Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh,

:07:47.:07:53.

they ran out of money. I'm glad this has been resolved. It is a feather

:07:54.:08:01.

in the cap of Carolyn Leckie. A lot of political reaction coming in.

:08:02.:08:05.

Politicians saying it is a great thing, but a few weeks ago, they

:08:06.:08:09.

were agreeing with the decision. There has been a lot of misjudgement

:08:10.:08:13.

on how this would have gone down with the people of Glasgow. When

:08:14.:08:18.

that reared up as it has done, politicians went OK and rolled back

:08:19.:08:31.

from that position. Everyone is saying about health and safety now.

:08:32.:08:37.

I think the organisers have been guided this week. The council and

:08:38.:08:41.

the rest of them have lost their bottle, so a big row coming and

:08:42.:08:52.

backed off. I was in favour of it at first. But somebody said, what would

:08:53.:08:58.

people in Mumbai or Nairobi make of this? Nairobi has the biggest shanty

:08:59.:09:05.

towers and Africa. People without homes. They bring out the best

:09:06.:09:11.

athletes in the world. What would we make of Glasgow blowing up buildings

:09:12.:09:15.

for fun? I began to think about these things and the more I thought

:09:16.:09:19.

about it, the more I read of the idea.

:09:20.:09:22.

Let's talk about the SNP conference. What did you make of the pitch from

:09:23.:09:34.

Alex Salmond during his speech to Labour voters and women voters?

:09:35.:09:41.

Fairly naked attempts to get both groups on site. The women issue

:09:42.:09:45.

first, there are real problems with the childcare policy. I'm not

:09:46.:09:54.

convinced that the wiki answered them in terms of the amount of women

:09:55.:09:57.

who can actually get into employment even if they wanted to take that

:09:58.:10:02.

step, and also in terms of the funding. I'm not sure how will that

:10:03.:10:09.

will play with women. Secondly, the quarter policy has put in place, in

:10:10.:10:14.

the Cabinet, the idea is that will be an aspirational policy for

:10:15.:10:20.

private companies also, I don't know how well that will play with women.

:10:21.:10:25.

Obviously gender equality in the workforce can only be a positive

:10:26.:10:29.

thing, but is that the baby want to do it? If women are slow to be

:10:30.:10:36.

convinced of the idea of independence, it is partly economic

:10:37.:10:40.

concerns rather than the issues we have been talking about. The economy

:10:41.:10:46.

is the most contentious issue in the campaign. He is right to try and get

:10:47.:10:51.

women's votes, nothing wrong with that. But if you look back in the

:10:52.:10:55.

campaign, the big issues, Europe and the economy, I think the SNP are

:10:56.:11:02.

ahead on both of these. The economic argument fell apart when we found

:11:03.:11:06.

that there would be a unified currency. This idea that one or two,

:11:07.:11:16.

or three or four individuals can decide our currency, or decide not

:11:17.:11:20.

to have a currency is nonsense. That is not a question for our

:11:21.:11:26.

government, it is a question for Parliament. I think people have

:11:27.:11:30.

recognised the yes campaign were right to challenge this refusal and

:11:31.:11:35.

the whole thing has backfired on Westminster. What about their appeal

:11:36.:11:44.

to disaffected Labour voters, we know that there are a lot because

:11:45.:11:49.

many of them voted SNP at the last election? Blair Jenkins from the yes

:11:50.:11:57.

campaign suggests that polls are seeing an independent Scotland would

:11:58.:12:01.

be fairer than the position at the moment, but is that enough? It has

:12:02.:12:08.

to be. The cause these 800,000 or so traditional Labour voters are vital

:12:09.:12:16.

to both sides of the campaign. It is now down to Labour, really. If they

:12:17.:12:20.

were watching Alex Salmond at the weekend making this overt appeal

:12:21.:12:27.

directly to Labour voters, I think the party has to look at that and

:12:28.:12:33.

think, what do we do now? What they need to do, as the Lib Dems have

:12:34.:12:42.

cold for them to do, is get the big beasts out. What is your sense of

:12:43.:12:49.

whether or not this notion of a rejuvenated Labour Party in an

:12:50.:12:52.

independent Scotland might appeal to Labour voters? I think it is a good

:12:53.:12:56.

idea. The Labour Party in Scotland never took to Tony Blair, they were

:12:57.:13:04.

reluctant to embrace new Labour. I think Labour have got a problem in

:13:05.:13:10.

Scotland. The yes campaign is really bouncing just now. All over the

:13:11.:13:14.

country, there are meetings in pubs, clubs, town halls, villages, people

:13:15.:13:20.

discussing the referendum and independence and it is all coming

:13:21.:13:25.

from the yes campaign. I think I have that one leaflet through my

:13:26.:13:36.

door from the no camp. The SNP... Before we go down that road, either

:13:37.:13:39.

have to stop you. Thank you both for joining us.

:13:40.:13:47.

That is all from us this week. We are off for the next two weeks for

:13:48.:13:52.

the Easter break. Join us on Sunday the 4th of May at the usual time of

:13:53.:13:54.

11am. Goodbye.

:13:55.:13:59.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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