04/05/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


04/05/2014

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The moulds and did in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in

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custody. He may have got egg on his face this

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week but Nigel Farage is a serious threat in this non-'s elections. I

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will ask the Conservatives how worried they are.

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And we are on the trail of Nick Clegg.

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You were voted the best looking party leader.

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We will talk to the party's deputy leader as he faces oblivion in the

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European elections. Coming up on Sunday Politics

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Scotland: Alex Salmond's speech in Belgium argued for a speedy

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accession to the EU if Scotland votes for independence.

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The UK government says that won't happen. We'll look at who's right.

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debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and

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the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

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and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs

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into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,

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President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after

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he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more

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than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is

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politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European

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election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,

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Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for

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policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean

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McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the

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Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was

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kidnapped from her home The widowed mother of ten was

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The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her

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and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the

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former IRA commander Brendan Hughes Disappeared. Before his death, the

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pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming:

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In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the

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murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent

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of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs

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McConville. We were hoping to speak to the

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Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an

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interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from

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Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And

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the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams

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said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the

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police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we

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have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in

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what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he

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wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet

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that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we

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believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of

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people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves

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that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the

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moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of

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the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The

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PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other

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high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people

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has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were

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interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they

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have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't

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got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the

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PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference

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in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from

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the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the

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peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in

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local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have

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powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is

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a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and

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making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react

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if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.

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If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern

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Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious

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ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a

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very important role to play to support the police service here. We

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have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will

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not accept political interference by a small number of people in the

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police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political

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policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we

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have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams

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being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from

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the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of

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evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why

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should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you

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expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the

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matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to

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Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a

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range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made

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from people, including from people who didn't want their statements

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released until they have died. who didn't want their statements

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was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process

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fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and

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we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and

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British and privately with the Irish and

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process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the

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woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat

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out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What

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question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile

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and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to

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use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.

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Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in

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days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the

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peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain

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of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having

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mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you

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have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,

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you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell

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but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.

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Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no

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action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a

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one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by

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the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these

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inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with

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the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of

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real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping

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he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if

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everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of

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the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster

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to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees

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himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern

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Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very

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revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble

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Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared

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don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the

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Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which

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it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during

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the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to

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tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and

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military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for

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the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the

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confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if

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even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave

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it there I'm afraid. It was the the same trap. We have to is leave

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campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning

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local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or

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local issues like the state of our Prime Minister re-iterated again his

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promise of an in-out referendum on our membership

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promise of an in-out referendum on And it's being reported this morning

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that he will share And it's being reported this morning

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Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what

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Nigel Farage in a pre-general UKIP leader had to say

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Nigel Farage in a pre-general issue when he was on the Marr Show

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this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague

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promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any

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intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband

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wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the

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last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can

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to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they

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invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined

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now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not

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without problems, they took place during the campaign period and

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disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people

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getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be

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helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of

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the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is

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not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be

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negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should

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have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that

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will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,

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the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election

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campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than

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local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically

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important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for

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example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this

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Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the

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previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?

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Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.

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There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local

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elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what

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you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.

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But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know

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that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --

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Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so

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people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does

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the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already

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promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it

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before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really

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trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless

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you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an

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in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at

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which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It

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is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,

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that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was

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no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There

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was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that

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up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will

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have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty

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had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a

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referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,

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having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our

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relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in

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this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,

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most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not

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what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing

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in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more

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of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and

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people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been

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looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are

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considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message

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here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are

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likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making

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these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us

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further away from returning powers to this country, further from a

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referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,

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and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,

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and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so

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over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people

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considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do

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not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to

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tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years

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ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU

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budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us

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into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a

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referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe

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it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising

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and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote

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Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in

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Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission

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has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and

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vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It

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goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed

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that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said

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they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they

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regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.

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What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step

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further. What people need our series solutions to serious

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further. What people need our series people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will

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say, which one of the 40% of people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will

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MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above

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MEPs who got in for UKIP last time to jail? 40% have ended up not

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delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote

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in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to

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the point you have our record at home, and this goes to

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we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from

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Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions

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Labour's recession. We are prepared well. Presumably, active

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Conservative members, they know that, so why do they

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Conservative members, they know going up and down the country

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they are on the doorstep, last weekend

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they are on the doorstep, last local elections... Why

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they are on the doorstep, last on UKIP? When I meet somebody who

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says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of

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say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,

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you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to

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Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you

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must be out of touch. -- if who say they will vote UKIP, you

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not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.

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I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you

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about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.

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Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get

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reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib

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Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got

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that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who

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has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the

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economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about

:22:41.:22:45.

Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have

:22:46.:22:51.

European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the

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European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about

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not talking about the local elections! These are serious

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elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake

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are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been

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battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,

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the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses

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domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching

:23:17.:23:23.

this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on

:23:24.:23:25.

national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing

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it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr

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Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I

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remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the

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remember. This is before the last Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't

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win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it

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doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out

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to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the

:24:13.:24:17.

voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before

:24:18.:24:19.

the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point

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that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a

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politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over

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a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look

:24:37.:24:42.

at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket

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case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting

:24:47.:24:51.

every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the

:24:52.:24:56.

developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the

:24:57.:24:59.

people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the

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right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car

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keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a

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pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting

:25:13.:25:17.

through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this

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morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do

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you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any

:25:30.:25:35.

kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs, British aren't deep,

:25:36.:25:43.

expanding our pharmaceutical sector. -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants

:25:44.:25:56.

to do with rent caps, he is anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He

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wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there

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be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people

:26:14.:26:17.

have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been

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very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests

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that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American

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project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to

:26:32.:26:36.

be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,

:26:37.:26:40.

thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal

:26:41.:26:43.

Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row

:26:44.:26:47.

with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with

:26:48.:26:50.

Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. crime. Adam has spent the day with

:26:51.:26:56.

How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the

:26:57.:26:59.

Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what

:27:00.:27:04.

his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion

:27:05.:27:09.

of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has

:27:10.:27:13.

been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is

:27:14.:27:19.

that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page

:27:20.:27:23.

manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he

:27:24.:27:28.

does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took

:27:29.:27:36.

a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven

:27:37.:27:39.

world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to

:27:40.:27:46.

make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring

:27:47.:27:51.

them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous

:27:52.:27:56.

country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very

:27:57.:28:01.

on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few

:28:02.:28:06.

years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do

:28:07.:28:11.

not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are

:28:12.:28:14.

doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,

:28:15.:28:19.

actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a

:28:20.:28:24.

national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any

:28:25.:28:29.

leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of

:28:30.:28:34.

Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has

:28:35.:28:37.

been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a

:28:38.:28:41.

town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full

:28:42.:28:47.

on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I

:28:48.:28:52.

don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal

:28:53.:28:58.

people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more

:28:59.:29:03.

abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't

:29:04.:29:10.

believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would

:29:11.:29:17.

have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.

:29:18.:29:24.

I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look

:29:25.:29:28.

at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election

:29:29.:29:32.

leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis

:29:33.:29:39.

jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency

:29:40.:29:45.

sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned

:29:46.:29:55.

wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have

:29:56.:29:58.

been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry

:29:59.:30:02.

fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants

:30:03.:30:06.

to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,

:30:07.:30:13.

letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife

:30:14.:30:17.

crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.

:30:18.:30:27.

They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are

:30:28.:30:31.

not helping people who worry about knife crime, like I do. We work

:30:32.:30:39.

together... knife crime, like I do. We work

:30:40.:30:41.

Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses

:30:42.:30:49.

share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is

:30:50.:30:55.

to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the

:30:56.:30:57.

week, that you were voted the most important story of the

:30:58.:31:07.

likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can

:31:08.:31:09.

guarantee you this is news to me and I can

:31:10.:31:12.

opinion polls has this is news to me and I can

:31:13.:31:16.

confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great

:31:17.:31:22.

for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride

:31:23.:31:29.

home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce

:31:30.:31:34.

joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely

:31:35.:31:40.

to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what

:31:41.:31:45.

would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe

:31:46.:31:49.

credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the

:31:50.:31:56.

most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think

:31:57.:32:01.

the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions

:32:02.:32:09.

that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as

:32:10.:32:13.

the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on

:32:14.:32:18.

about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do

:32:19.:32:24.

think so, we have two weeks to go and we are campaigning extremely

:32:25.:32:35.

hard. You are forced in the polls. I can tell you there are people out

:32:36.:32:39.

there who do believe Britain should stay in the EU and they are worried

:32:40.:32:45.

that other parties will take us out. The Liberal Democrats are clear, we

:32:46.:32:50.

want to stay in, we will work for reform and do it effectively. If you

:32:51.:32:54.

lose the Liberal Democrats, Britain's influence in Europe will

:32:55.:33:01.

be weakened. Your track record in Europe shows you have been

:33:02.:33:05.

spectacularly wrong again and again. In your 2009 manifesto you said the

:33:06.:33:12.

European Central Bank and the euro have been tried and tested over ten

:33:13.:33:17.

years providing a clear picture of the benefits of Eurozone membership

:33:18.:33:23.

and that proved to be nonsense. It was nonsense everywhere. Every

:33:24.:33:27.

developed bank in the world was tried and tested and failed. Europe

:33:28.:33:32.

may not be perfect, but the question people have to decide is if we are

:33:33.:33:37.

going to leave Europe and be isolated on RM, or use our influence

:33:38.:33:44.

to reform it from inside. We have allies, you work with them, that is

:33:45.:33:47.

something the The reason we were wrong to some

:33:48.:34:08.

extent is that the euro, when it was set up, did not follow any of the

:34:09.:34:14.

rules and regulations. That's why we never recommended that Britain

:34:15.:34:17.

should join at the outset because the criteria had not been met. I was

:34:18.:34:22.

the spokesman at the time and I made that clear.

:34:23.:34:29.

Because your track record is important. British monetary

:34:30.:34:35.

sovereignty is not all it is cracked up to be. This is what you said. How

:34:36.:34:42.

wrong can you be? Hello-mac I said that we were in

:34:43.:34:46.

favour in principle of having a single currency and a single market.

:34:47.:34:51.

But we have always argued that it had to abide by strict gritty area.

:34:52.:34:55.

It hasn't done so and that is one of the reasons that it has failed. --

:34:56.:35:06.

strict criteria. Your 2010 manifesto did advocate it.

:35:07.:35:13.

It said, we believe it is in Britain's long-term interest to be

:35:14.:35:16.

part of the euro. If the single market -- there will

:35:17.:35:25.

come points when the UK may well benefit... Only in the long run. In

:35:26.:35:30.

the circumstances we are in at the moment, there is no recommended

:35:31.:35:35.

timescale for joining the euro. Despite the Eurozone crisis, which

:35:36.:35:41.

has caused a loss of millions of jobs, countries that were teetering

:35:42.:35:47.

on the brink of bankruptcy with the Eurozone now facing stagnation and

:35:48.:35:51.

some countries on the brink of deflation, you still will not rule

:35:52.:35:56.

out Britain joining? Hello-mac we are ruling out Britain

:35:57.:36:00.

joining in the near future. We are working, in the present

:36:01.:36:04.

circumstances, as a partner in the coalition governments to secure

:36:05.:36:11.

economic covering. That is our current track record.

:36:12.:36:21.

What would the climate look like when it was right for Europe --

:36:22.:36:30.

Britain to join the euro? Until you have a strong enough and

:36:31.:36:34.

cohesive enough Eurozone in which all the countries can meet that kind

:36:35.:36:37.

of criteria, written is better off out.

:36:38.:36:47.

It can only happen by consent and we have made it clear that any

:36:48.:36:51.

circumstances in which any further powers can be transferred from the

:36:52.:36:55.

UK to the EU, we would support a referendum. We put that into law in

:36:56.:37:02.

the present Parliament. But you have said they would have to

:37:03.:37:05.

be a much more distinct fiscal and monetary policy. You said that if

:37:06.:37:10.

that was the case Britain would join.

:37:11.:37:15.

No, I said that all of the member states would have to agree to these

:37:16.:37:20.

criteria. We do not envisage joining in the present circumstances or in

:37:21.:37:21.

the foreseeable future. Why won't you just give us a

:37:22.:37:29.

referendum on in or out? Why won't you just give us a

:37:30.:37:38.

be context. What David Cameron is doing is dangerous.

:37:39.:37:42.

be context. What David Cameron is member states are not keen on the

:37:43.:37:47.

be context. What David Cameron is on the instigation of just one

:37:48.:37:47.

member states, on the instigation of just one

:37:48.:37:53.

to agree to rules that we will not agree to abide by.

:37:54.:37:58.

to agree to rules that we will not Do you want in or out?

:37:59.:38:00.

Our argument is that you need to have a context. To have a referendum

:38:01.:38:05.

against no background whatsoever is to put it out of context. We are one

:38:06.:38:10.

year away from the general election. We have

:38:11.:38:14.

that... Went back so there is still a

:38:15.:38:18.

Eurozone crisis? We are in the process of recovering.

:38:19.:38:25.

The reality is that the whole of the Western world has gone through

:38:26.:38:28.

The reality is that the whole of the very deep crisis. The UK is coming

:38:29.:38:29.

out of bed and the Eurozone very deep crisis. The UK is coming

:38:30.:38:33.

coming out of it. Greece has been able to borrow back on the market

:38:34.:38:38.

again in recent weeks, which is a sign of recovery and success. It is

:38:39.:38:42.

in our interest that the Eurozone succeeds. But that doesn't mean we

:38:43.:38:47.

have to be part of it on the same conditions as everyone else. I will

:38:48.:38:48.

tell you that the Lib Dems work to conditions as everyone else. I will

:38:49.:38:54.

deliver the UK's interests. If we are not bear, the UK's interests

:38:55.:38:56.

will be undermined. are not bear, the UK's interests

:38:57.:38:58.

When Max you are Politics.

:38:59.:39:08.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:39:09.:39:12.

programme.... After the First Minister's speech in

:39:13.:39:15.

Brussels arguing the case for a speedy EU accession in the event of

:39:16.:39:19.

a Yes vote, we look at the potential terms and ask what role do small

:39:20.:39:22.

countries play in Europe? I would say that our role, even

:39:23.:39:26.

though we are a small country, is quite significant.

:39:27.:39:28.

And Business Improvement Districts - do they help

:39:29.:39:31.

And Business Improvement Districts - centres or do we need to think about

:39:32.:39:34.

public space differently? Good morning. The First Minister

:39:35.:39:38.

Alex Salmond was in Belgium this week to argue the case for Scotland

:39:39.:39:41.

to be swiftly granted full membership of the European Union if

:39:42.:39:44.

there's a 'yes' vote in the independence referendum.

:39:45.:39:47.

The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, said that could not be

:39:48.:39:49.

guaranteed and predicted long, complex negotiations, resulting in a

:39:50.:39:53.

worse deal for Scotland. So, who's right? Our political correspondent,

:39:54.:39:56.

Glenn Campbell, reports from Brussels.

:39:57.:40:08.

Welcome to the Belgian city of beer and bureaucracy. Brussels is not

:40:09.:40:14.

only famous for brewing, that it is also home to the institutions of the

:40:15.:40:19.

EU. If there is a Yes vote in September, the Scottish government

:40:20.:40:24.

would not only have to open negotiations on independence with

:40:25.:40:29.

the UK Government in London, they would also have to send a delegation

:40:30.:40:42.

here to Brussels. Not to step Coffey and eat waffles, but to sit down

:40:43.:40:47.

with the member states of the EU to negotiate independent Scottish

:40:48.:40:53.

membership. The current EU commission president has made that

:40:54.:40:57.

sounds like a nonstarter. I believe it is going to be

:40:58.:41:01.

extremely difficult if not impossible. A new member states

:41:02.:41:06.

coming out of one of our countries, getting the agreement of the

:41:07.:41:11.

other... This analyst is not as optimistic

:41:12.:41:16.

about Britain's -- Scotland's prospects.

:41:17.:41:25.

Spain has internal problems with Catalonia where Madrid has sought to

:41:26.:41:30.

prevent Catalonia from seceding from the unitary states. They might seek

:41:31.:41:36.

all possible ways in trying to delay its Scottish advancements in this

:41:37.:41:44.

area and so as not to create a precedent.

:41:45.:41:49.

In Bruges, the First Minister argued this week that oil-rich, fish rich

:41:50.:41:54.

Scotland would be readily accepted into the EU because the alternative

:41:55.:41:56.

would not be in anyone's best interest.

:41:57.:42:05.

They would be denied access to Scottish waters, and as a result

:42:06.:42:11.

Norwegian waters. 160,000 EU workers, students and voters in

:42:12.:42:16.

Scotland is would suddenly be uncertain about their status. This

:42:17.:42:25.

alternative is clearly absurd. What would they make of that at

:42:26.:42:31.

European Commission headquarters? In the

:42:32.:51:36.

organised. How do smaller states make a difference within the EU?

:51:37.:51:42.

They have got to have a different strategy. They try and get on the

:51:43.:51:55.

winning side. With other like-minded states. They succeed when they are

:51:56.:52:02.

organised, flexible, so that they know their way around. They can

:52:03.:52:06.

anticipate what is going to be on the agenda. They try and influence

:52:07.:52:14.

policy and they try to adopt April European attitude. -- pro-European.

:52:15.:52:23.

They select the issues on which they want to intervene. Thank you.

:52:24.:52:33.

The effects of the recent economic downturn are evident in town centres

:52:34.:52:37.

up and down Scotland. Many high streets have been reduced to rows of

:52:38.:52:40.

betting shops, charity shops and money shops alongside boarded up

:52:41.:52:44.

units. One attempt at encouraging growth has been the development of

:52:45.:52:47.

Business Improvement Districts - or BIDs - which were introduced here in

:52:48.:52:50.

2008. Six years on and after millions of pounds of Scottish

:52:51.:52:53.

Government and private sector investment, are they working? Some

:52:54.:52:56.

traders say the rewards are obvious while others resent the additional

:52:57.:52:59.

levies on their businesses. Megan Paterson reports. Chasing trains,

:53:00.:53:07.

not haggis, is the tag line for this form. -- firm. I have looked round

:53:08.:53:15.

all the other high street and Dunfermline was the option. As a wad

:53:16.:53:23.

of investment. Other high streets are dying of weird as Dunfermline

:53:24.:53:27.

are putting any lot more money. -- dying off. Melissa opened her second

:53:28.:53:37.

shop year after starting in Dundee. Compare to Dundee, where I had no

:53:38.:53:42.

help, I have received a ?5,000 plant extend the business further round

:53:43.:53:47.

the back. We now have an installed beauty parlour, and a make-up artist

:53:48.:53:56.

as well. The local business improvement district was set up

:53:57.:53:59.

after able to on local businesses five years ago. It now faces a

:54:00.:54:06.

renewal ballot. The team behind it is convinced that still has a role

:54:07.:54:11.

to play. We have made a lot of inroads. First with Aberdeen and

:54:12.:54:21.

other towns. We want to grow and increase the festivals that we do,

:54:22.:54:27.

to bring more people to the towns. The economic climate that they were

:54:28.:54:32.

born into, you need more time to cement all of the work that has

:54:33.:54:38.

started. Business Improvement Districts have been working in

:54:39.:54:42.

Scotland since 2008. 23 are around the country. They are voted in by

:54:43.:54:46.

local businesses. They have created 52 jobs. They have benefited from

:54:47.:54:57.

?17.8 million of private investment. Businesses in these areas pay an

:54:58.:55:00.

extra levy on their rates to help fund investment. Those feeling

:55:01.:55:05.

across the country. So do opinion on success. Some traders here in

:55:06.:55:10.

Clarkston are questioning the benefits. It confuses me. The ?900

:55:11.:55:20.

at reappearing, some of the ideas the committee are coming up with, I

:55:21.:55:23.

thought the council would cover that. Hanging baskets... I thought

:55:24.:55:29.

those were things the local government recover. It seems to be

:55:30.:55:35.

that we are being punished. -- would cover. But East Renfrewshire council

:55:36.:55:41.

says it has been a stew with careful to ensure that the levy isn't used

:55:42.:55:47.

for these services. The bed has helped shop fronts and local events.

:55:48.:55:51.

Clarkston will hold a renewal ballot next year. So far, all six of the

:55:52.:55:57.

original bids have chosen to extend. That is viewed by some as a signal

:55:58.:56:03.

of success. There is a desire to have this investment. To bring the

:56:04.:56:10.

benefits into local businesses. That is a communication rule forbids

:56:11.:56:13.

within that, to ensure that they do tell both consumers traders and

:56:14.:56:17.

others what is occurring and we are the benefits happen.

:56:18.:56:25.

others what is occurring and we are many of them will be renewed. So

:56:26.:56:27.

they are as great as the towns they seek to improve. Forecasting that

:56:28.:56:32.

many more teams will be in place by 2020 saw more of a variety is

:56:33.:56:41.

guaranteed. I'm joined now by the minister for

:56:42.:56:44.

local government and planning, Derek Mackay, and by the architect Malcolm

:56:45.:56:49.

Fraser. Derek... Have these Business Improvement Districts been a

:56:50.:56:55.

success? I think they have. Something is not without minor

:56:56.:56:57.

controversy but they are on the whole they have added to vibrancy.

:56:58.:57:04.

They have given extra to help deliver regeneration. We have 24 in

:57:05.:57:08.

place. The l'amour and development at the moment and I wouldn't cut it

:57:09.:57:11.

was to come forward and villages as well. How do you measure success

:57:12.:57:22.

when it comes to this? They all do different things. Some are about

:57:23.:57:26.

environmental improvement. Someone about promotion and others the

:57:27.:57:33.

night-time economy. Someone about building the cover projects together

:57:34.:57:37.

so they are very diverse and what they do. You can measure success by

:57:38.:57:42.

what they say they will do. Are they taking on work that some of the

:57:43.:57:48.

councils would do? We had a completely the money is spent on

:57:49.:57:53.

flower and Christmas lights. You would expect the local authority to

:57:54.:57:57.

pay for that? It should be additionality. It should not be

:57:58.:58:03.

replacing that, which the council should be doing. It should be the

:58:04.:58:11.

added extra. It should be a case of trying to rejuvenate our town

:58:12.:58:14.

centres. The council should not walk away from their responsibilities but

:58:15.:58:20.

adding to it. Is this the right way to rejuvenate our town centres? We

:58:21.:58:27.

need to be considering, the optic and the renewal. -- uptake. I think

:58:28.:58:36.

this is a really interesting way for local communities, business

:58:37.:58:42.

communities, to come forward. They have a stake in neighbourhoods. I

:58:43.:58:48.

wonder what all the renewal of the beds themselves as a measure of

:58:49.:58:53.

success? Some people might feel as though that there's nothing much

:58:54.:58:56.

more they can do other than apply for this money that is being

:58:57.:59:01.

offered? I don't have a problem with that. Businesses are taking more

:59:02.:59:08.

responsibility and we need to see local community groups take over

:59:09.:59:13.

property and start clubs, businesses. We need local government

:59:14.:59:19.

to be taking more responsibility for the health of their communities.

:59:20.:59:25.

Moving schools out, moving libraries out of town... We need everybody to

:59:26.:59:31.

take that civic responsibility. It sits alongside central government

:59:32.:59:37.

responsibility. We need more communities in Scotland to be caring

:59:38.:59:44.

about the place the island. -- they place they are in. Maybe the

:59:45.:59:55.

premises that are being lying empty meet for different purposes? We have

:59:56.:00:01.

different purposes. They are changing some of the uses. They have

:00:02.:00:06.

very specific projects to demonstrate what we can do. Other

:00:07.:00:10.

planes and towns will have to change. It was just retail before

:00:11.:00:14.

but the world has changed with digital technology. Towns will

:00:15.:00:22.

change and a jazz we go forward. Is it easy for town centres to make the

:00:23.:00:27.

kind of change that you talking about? Sometimes the field of view

:00:28.:00:38.

of bureaucracy can get in the way. They can tighten up and certain

:00:39.:00:45.

other areas. -- in certain other areas. I think these rates changes

:00:46.:00:52.

are very welcome. We propose a father power for local authorities

:00:53.:00:59.

to create even more local release teams so that began father

:01:00.:01:02.

incentivise people to open up more properties. What is your view about

:01:03.:01:12.

how we use town centres? Shopping is obviously popular and people lament

:01:13.:01:15.

the fact that they are not as they used to be, do we need a change of

:01:16.:01:20.

use? You do not find the local shops, art galleries, different

:01:21.:01:29.

things do they neatest thing up? -- need to spring up? No matter how

:01:30.:01:38.

many places where you have out-of-town shopping complexes, the

:01:39.:01:42.

no parts, places to walk and meet people and discuss things. Town

:01:43.:01:49.

centres do. We should stop being pessimistic and start being far more

:01:50.:01:52.

optimistic about how they are places of the future. We're going to see

:01:53.:01:58.

those sort of dismal places that you can only get two with cars, those

:01:59.:02:07.

other places of the past. -- are the places. We need to be more open to

:02:08.:02:14.

those changes. Is there not a danger that that vibrancy you talk about

:02:15.:02:19.

has been lost? People want at the high street at the moment and think

:02:20.:02:25.

they are not particularly vibrant? 20 years ago I moved into an office

:02:26.:02:28.

in old town of Edinburgh and the place was dead. Nothing happening.

:02:29.:02:37.

Now the local businesses complain about the rates but that is because

:02:38.:02:40.

it is an extremely attractive place to be. National headquarters want to

:02:41.:02:48.

be the and national businesses. Edinburgh has a huge amount of

:02:49.:02:52.

attractions. More than anywhere else, but everywhere has a community

:02:53.:02:56.

and historic buildings. We need to be far more aware that change

:02:57.:03:02.

happens. Edinburgh has changed beyond recognition. For some people

:03:03.:03:08.

that might look as if it is changing slowly? Not many town centres are

:03:09.:03:13.

like Edinburgh. The shops boarded up for years. It is a mix across the

:03:14.:03:20.

country. Some towns have been a real success. In Kilmarnock, where I

:03:21.:03:25.

launched the government response, the high street was 100% occupied.

:03:26.:03:32.

Much lies behind that. I would like that to happen across the country.

:03:33.:03:38.

Success will only be delivered on the ground if we have local people

:03:39.:03:42.

picking up the tools to do the job. There is no question that people

:03:43.:03:48.

want their towns and cities to succeed. We have to work together.

:03:49.:03:53.

The puppets maybe has change of what went on before. Money is important.

:03:54.:04:06.

It is. The beauty of business improvement districts is that the

:04:07.:04:15.

lady is local but it can be supplemented by... That unlock some

:04:16.:04:23.

of the potential. That is not just about money, but resources are part

:04:24.:04:27.

of that as well. There is a mix to help deliver a new face for town

:04:28.:04:32.

centres across the country. Thank you for joining us. Let's cross for

:04:33.:04:40.

the news. You're watching Sunday Politics

:04:41.:04:42.

Scotland. Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr.

:04:43.:04:45.

Good afternoon. The Sunday Herald has become the first newspaper to

:04:46.:04:48.

back a Yes vote in the independence referendum. The front page states

:04:49.:04:51.

"Sunday Herald says Yes". The accompanying graphics are designed

:04:52.:04:54.

by the artist and writer Alasdair Gray. The editorial lays out the

:04:55.:04:57.

reasons for their support but says reporting will remain balanced.

:04:58.:05:00.

A man's been arrested in connection with the death of a forty year old

:05:01.:05:04.

man in Glasgow yesterday. The forty-year old died following an

:05:05.:05:06.

incident at Springburn Shopping Centre. A 29-year old man is due to

:05:07.:05:11.

appear in court on Tuesday. The benefits of a good quality

:05:12.:05:14.

nursery education can last into secondary school, according to new

:05:15.:05:19.

research. The Scottish Government paper says children with no

:05:20.:05:21.

pre-school attendance aren't as sociable, don't concentrate as well

:05:22.:05:27.

and have poorer thinking processes. The number of hours three and four

:05:28.:05:31.

year olds are entitled to go to nursery for free increases in

:05:32.:05:34.

August. More than 14,000 women and children

:05:35.:05:38.

are taking part in the Race for Life in Glasgow this lunchtime. The X

:05:39.:05:41.

Factor winner Alexandra Burke started the annual 5K run, which is

:05:42.:05:48.

in aid of a cancer charity. They set off from the Green and made their

:05:49.:05:51.

way around the city centre. Now a look at the weather forecast,

:05:52.:05:53.

here's Judith. Good afternoon. I think it's

:05:54.:06:05.

noticeably milder today. This afternoon, it is fairly damp,

:06:06.:06:11.

especially across western Scotland. Also running across the northern

:06:12.:06:16.

isles as well. Percent sure and Easter in Scotland it will remain

:06:17.:06:19.

dry with some brightness coming through the clouds. -- for central

:06:20.:06:27.

and eastern Scotland. Quite breezy across the northern isles. That's

:06:28.:06:29.

it. Thanks Andrew. Now in a moment,

:06:30.:06:39.

we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,

:06:40.:06:43.

let's take a look back at the week in sixty seconds... Now it's time to

:06:44.:06:47.

have a look at the Sunday papers and what's happening in the week ahead.

:06:48.:06:51.

I'm joined here in the studio by Ian Smart, lawyer and blogger, and by

:06:52.:06:54.

Kate Higgins, who writes the Burdz Eye View blog.

:06:55.:06:56.

Good afternoon. Let's start with the Sunday papers. The Sunday Herald has

:06:57.:07:00.

declared its support for the Yes vote in the referendum. Is this a

:07:01.:07:07.

game changer? I don't think it's a game changer

:07:08.:07:12.

but it is a really important signal. There is only one direction that

:07:13.:07:16.

this debate can go and that is toward yes. I think you have to

:07:17.:07:21.

admire the Sunday Herald's honesty in coming out with a clear editorial

:07:22.:07:26.

position. The message is there for other newspapers to follow suit.

:07:27.:07:32.

People who claim not to, or organisations which claim not to

:07:33.:07:36.

have an editorial position, and yet the evidence appears quite

:07:37.:07:42.

different. It is a welcome move. Everyone supporting a Yes vote will

:07:43.:07:46.

welcome it. Do you anticipate that other

:07:47.:07:51.

newspapers may follow suit? The Sunday Herald has supported the SNP

:07:52.:07:55.

at the last two elections so it is perhaps not a surprise will stop the

:07:56.:08:01.

interesting thing about the Sunday Herald is that it is the first paper

:08:02.:08:08.

to declare for either side. The paper that people are really

:08:09.:08:11.

interested in is what the Sun is going to do. The Sun is a great

:08:12.:08:26.

unknown. Do you believe that newspapers will

:08:27.:08:30.

actually influence how people vote? I have my vote -- I have my doubts.

:08:31.:08:40.

Circulation of the Sunday Herald is less than small local newspapers. I

:08:41.:08:48.

don't think people will make up their minds based purely on what

:08:49.:08:56.

this newspaper says. The Sunday Times has been talking to

:08:57.:09:02.

David Trimble, former First Minister of Northern Ireland. He has been

:09:03.:09:06.

talking about what a Yes vote might mean across the Irish Sea. He talks

:09:07.:09:10.

about the ghost of increased violence in the province. Some would

:09:11.:09:15.

say that a Yes vote is a reason to pursue change through the democratic

:09:16.:09:21.

process. The ripples from Scotland could spread far and wide.

:09:22.:09:27.

Absolutely. That is why the world is watching and taking a keen interest

:09:28.:09:30.

in what is happening in Holland. I feel for David Trimble. I listened

:09:31.:09:37.

to this interview yesterday morning. He was keen to point out to the BBC

:09:38.:09:41.

in Scotland that they had misinformed people with their online

:09:42.:09:45.

headline. He was not talking about a Yes vote is stirring up trouble for

:09:46.:09:51.

the peace process. But that it might have consequences for the political

:09:52.:09:55.

process. I am sad to say that that's misleading headline is still in

:09:56.:09:59.

evidence on BBC Scotland online this morning. What he actually said was,

:10:00.:10:07.

yes, that he could see - and this is a man who knows how important words

:10:08.:10:11.

are in late political process that he could see how a Yes vote might

:10:12.:10:17.

influence things one way or another. He also said that if Scotland vote

:10:18.:10:21.

yes in September, it would be the first ever occasion of a peaceful

:10:22.:10:26.

democratic vote for independence. That also might influence how

:10:27.:10:31.

politics is taken forward in Ireland.

:10:32.:10:36.

In the Sunday Times, he says he thinks there would need to be a

:10:37.:10:41.

referendum to settle this issue in Northern Ireland. The issue of a

:10:42.:10:46.

united Ireland. But we know what the outcome of a

:10:47.:10:49.

referendum in Northern Ireland would be. At one point there was a

:10:50.:10:54.

suggestion that the Republicans might out breach the Protestants,

:10:55.:11:00.

but we are living in a modern age. It is almost inconceivable that

:11:01.:11:03.

Northern Ireland would vote to join the Republican any circumstances.

:11:04.:11:09.

For goods or ill. David Cameron is signalling that he

:11:10.:11:12.

might get involved in a debate ahead of the lack -- ahead of the election

:11:13.:11:19.

that would involve Nigel Farage. There are many caveats to his

:11:20.:11:24.

acceptance, including the inclusion of others in the debates.

:11:25.:11:33.

I think there are two points about how much the media are prepared to

:11:34.:11:37.

put wind into Friarage and UK's sales. They are a political

:11:38.:11:50.

relevance here in Scotland is, but. They have ruled nothing in and

:11:51.:11:55.

nothing out, unlike the position with regard to debating Prime

:11:56.:11:59.

Minister against First Minister. They have ruled that out and it

:12:00.:12:04.

suggests that David Cameron worries more about his own political careers

:12:05.:12:09.

in the future of Scotland. Ed Miliband said this morning that

:12:10.:12:13.

he would be happy to be involved in a debate with Nigel Farage, but said

:12:14.:12:18.

that he thought it was up to the broadcasters to decide who was

:12:19.:12:22.

invited. Does this place David Cameron in a difficult position?

:12:23.:12:30.

The argument is that the referendum is a decision for people who live in

:12:31.:12:36.

Scotland. I have said from the start that Alex Salmond has painted

:12:37.:12:41.

himself into a corner. If we get into the closing stages of the

:12:42.:12:47.

referendum, if he chooses to sulk and not come out and debates, he

:12:48.:12:52.

will just look scared. He has made his point that David Cameron should

:12:53.:13:01.

debate with him and he is not taking the bait. At some point you will

:13:02.:13:03.

have to give up. How much is this general election

:13:04.:13:09.

can't paint overshadowed by the referendum?

:13:10.:13:14.

I think it is overshadowed in terms of who

:13:15.:13:21.

I think it is overshadowed in terms for. It is also pivotal

:13:22.:13:25.

I think it is overshadowed in terms SNP's position is for

:13:26.:13:28.

I think it is overshadowed in terms within Europe. People want to

:13:29.:13:30.

consider all the issues when they come to choose how to vote. It is

:13:31.:13:35.

going to be a fascinating election, particularly for people like us, to

:13:36.:13:40.

see who takes that vital sixth place, weather or not you can does

:13:41.:13:46.

make headway in Scotland. And weather Lib Dems do lose out.

:13:47.:13:50.

Thank you both very much for joining us. That's all from us this week.

:13:51.:13:54.

We're back at the slightly earlier time of 11.30am next week. Until

:13:55.:13:55.

then, goodbye.

:13:56.:14:01.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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