11/05/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


11/05/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, where we're talking about

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the Europe-wide contest that really matters. No not Eurovision. The

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European elections. There are local elections across England too on May

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22nd. The party leaders are campaigning ahead of polling day.

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The results could be a pointer to the Big One May 2015. We'll be

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speaking to the man in charge of Labour's election battle plan. Has

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the opposition really got its sights set on all-out victory in 2015? Or

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will it just be content with squeaking home? And you can't

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mention elections these days without talking about the impact of this

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man, Nigel Farage. I'll be asking him if UKIP really is fit for

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primetime. Coming up on Sunday Politics

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Scotland: As Westminster and Holyrood do battle over Scottish

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independence are Civil servants - who have long prided themselves on

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their neutrality - being drawn into the fray?

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guaranteed to bring a touch of Eurovision glamour to your Sunday

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morning. With views more controversial than a bearded

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Austrian drag act and twice the dress sense, it's Nick Watt, Helen

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Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So you might have thought you've already heard

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David Cameron promise an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2017

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if he's still Prime Minister. Many times. Many, many times. Well he

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obviously doesn't think you've been listening, because he's been saying

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it again today. Here he is speaking to the BBC earlier. We will hold a

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referendum by the end of 2017. It will be a referendum on an in-out

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basis. Do we stay in a reformed European Union or do we leave? And

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I've said very clearly that whatever the outcome of the next election,

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and of course I want an overall majority and I'm hoping and

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believing I can win an overall majority, that people should be in

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no doubt I will not become Prime Minister unless I can guarantee that

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we will hold a referendum. Here's saying there that an overall

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majority there will definitely be a referendum. If these are the

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minority position, he won't form a new coalition unless they agree to a

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referendum, too. The Lib Dems a pulmonary agree to that. They

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probably will because the Prime ministers have a strong argument

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which is I gave you a referendum back in 2010 so the least I need is

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theirs and the Lib Dems are the only party who have stood in recent

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elections on a clear mandate to hold a referendum, so it is difficult for

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them to say no, there was interesting the interview he did

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earlier today. He named everything was going to ask for. The most

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controversial with him, as he said in his speech last year, he wants to

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take Britain out of the commitment to make the European Union and ever

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closer union. That is a very big ask, but the point is, he may well

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get it because the choice for the European Union now, France and

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Germany, is a clear wonderful do Britain in or out? Previously, it

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was can you put up with a British prime ministers being annoying? I

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think you'll find the answer is they are willing to pay a price but not

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any price to keep Britain in. In this scenario, Labour would have

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lost the election again because we are talking the slowly happen if Mr

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Cameron is the largest party or has an overall majority. Could you then

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see Labour deciding we had better go along with a referendum, too? I

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think that's unlikely because as I think that's unlikely because

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there's a huge upside for that for I think what's interesting is the idea

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he would for minority government. Would you get confidence and look at

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other options that might well happen with the way the arithmetic is going

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or is he going to hold out and say the only way I will be Prime

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Minister is in a majority Conservative government? No, the

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implication of his remarks was I wouldn't form a coalition government

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unless my coalition partners would also agree to vote for a referendum.

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He's basically talking about is negotiating strategy in those

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coalition talks. It's a red line and a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems,

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because they know David Cameron absolutely has to do, for accidental

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reasons, as a person who survives as Tory leader, to ask for that

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referendum, so they can ask anything they want in return and if I was

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Nick Clegg, I would work out in the next year one absolute colossal

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negotiating demand for those coalition talks. For a party around

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10% in the polls, they will do have the Prime Minister over a barrel on

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this one, assuming that coalition talks goes well. They could make

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Michael Gove Tbyte meeting. OK, we need to move on. So, the politicians

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are out and about on what used to be called the stump ahead of local and

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European elections in less than two weeks' time. But, without wanting to

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depress you on a damp Sunday morning, the party strategists are

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already hard at work on their campaign plans for the General

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Election next May. Yes, it's less than a year to go. They may have

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taken their time, but Labour's battleplan for 2015 is starting to

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take shape. As well as take promising to freeze your energy

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bills, and reintroduce the 50p rate of tax, Ed Miliband now says he

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wants to intervene in the housing market to keep rents down. There's

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even talk that the party leadership wants to bring more railway lines

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into public ownership. And Labour is gambling that its big push on the

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cost of living will see it through to the general election despite

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evidence that growth is firmly back. Labour's campaign chief Douglas

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Alexander hopes it all adds up to victory next May. But so far, the

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evidence is hitting home very thin. One survey today shows that 56% of

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people don't think Mr Miliband is up to the job of Prime Minister. As we

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head towards one of the least predictable general elections in 70

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years, has Labour got a message to win seats up and down the country?

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And Labour's election co-ordinator and Shadow Foreign Secretary,

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Douglas Alexander, joins me now. Welcome to Sunday Politics. A lot of

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these policies announced polar pretty well. By popular with the

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country. When you add them together, it's a move to the left and what

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would be wrong with that? I think is your packet suggests, the contours

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in the coming campaign are becoming clear. Our judgement is the defining

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issue of the year in British politics will be the widening gap

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between the wealth of the country and the finances of ordinary

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families. We believe it will be a cost of living election and we have

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been setting out our thinking in relation to energy prices and rent,

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but you will hear more from Labour Party in the coming months because

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we're now less than one year away from a decisive moment. If the

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leftish think tank suggested any of his policies in that Tony Blair

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years, you would have opposed them. Let's be clear, when not going for

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an interest but seeking to secure a majority for the only way to do that

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is not simply to appeal to your base, but to the centre ground. I

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believe we got genuine opportunities in the next year. You have the

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Conservatives in a struggle with UKIP on the right of politics. The

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Lib Dems 9% of trying to find their base, and there's a genuine

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opportunity in the next year for Labour to dominate the centre ground

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of politics and secure the majority Labour government we are planning

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for in the coming year. I notice you didn't deny you wouldn't have

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opposed. You say you have got an message for aspirational voters in

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the South. This is what John Denham said. He thinks you're talking too

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much to your core vote. He is right to recognise we took a

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terrible beating in 2010. 29%. If you look at what we've done in the

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last week, for example, the signature policy on rent Ed Miliband

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announced to launch the campaign, there's now more than 9 million

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people in the country in the private rented sector, more than 1 million

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families. Many of them are in the south-east. They are seeing

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circumstances where, suddenly, landlord will increase the rent and

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they put the pressure involved in schooling, health care facing the

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families, so it is important both in terms of policy and in terms of

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politics that we speak to the whole country, not simply to one part of

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it falls up what is the average rise in event last year? I don't know.

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Can you tell me? 1%. 1% not in real terms. I'm not sure what the problem

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is. It will happen to wages in last year, we are facing circumstances

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where people will be worse off, up to ?1600 off worse and frankly, if

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our opponents want to argue that the economy has healed and they deserve

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a victory lap, good luck to them because actually, what we are

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hearing from the Buddhist public, not just in the north and south, is

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not the cost living crisis is continuing and it affects families.

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There was nothing aspirational about your party election broadcast for

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the European elections. It looked like crude class war to money

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people. That's a bit of it. Bedroom tax. Isn't it going to look bad that

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two thirds of those affected are disabled? Who cares? They can't

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fight back. Shall be lay-offs and NHS nurses? The National Health

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Service? Oh yes. Mr Cameron? Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has

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shrunk. He's actually shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt

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him? Nothing about Europe, Labour policy. News that the Tories would

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result in negative campaigning and smear. You didn't tell you would be

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just as bad. Let's start the party broadcast. The one thing guaranteed

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to have most people reaching for the remote control these days are the

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words, there now follows a party but the broadcast. I make no apology in

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the factory to be innovative in how we presented. It's factual. It was a

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policy -based critic of this government. And the Lib Dems role

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within it. So you're claiming it's factual to betray the camera and

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cabinet is not even knowing what the NHS is, -- the Cameron Cabinet. They

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attack the disabled because they can't fight back. The Pinellas

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Tanner severely Prime Minister Sun and he was treated during a short

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life by the NHS. It's a fact many disabled people across the country

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including in my constituency have been directly affected by the

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bedroom tax. And ultimately, this Conservative led government,

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including the Lib Dems, will be held accountable by the politicians. You

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say that, the Prime Minister, who had a severely disabled son of. I

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you not ashamed about? I shadowed Iain Duncan Smith of five months

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also they don't have the excuses of seeing that saying nobody told them

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the consequences of the bedroom tax. They went into this with their eyes

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open. They knew about the hardship and difficulty. If they were

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one-bedroom properties available across the country for people to

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move into, their argument would be OK but they knew they were dealing

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with the most vulnerable people. Did you sign off that part of the

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broadcast? Of course I stand by the fact of it. I wish David Cameron and

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Iain Duncan Smith would apologise to the disabled people of the country

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and the poorest people for the effects of the bedroom tax. I hope

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we get that apology between now and election. As someone who thinks

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integrity is important in politics, not ashamed of this kind of thing?

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It's important we scrutinise the policies of this government as well

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as adding a positive agenda for change. You want that you won't

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promise this is the last time we'll see such a negative press campaign?

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I don't think it is negative or personal to scrutinise the

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government. So we'll get more of this? I'm less interested in the

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background of the cabinet than their views. You call the upper-class

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twits. It's for the British public to make a judgement in terms of the

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British... That's how you depicted them. We are held in accountable for

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the bedroom tax, the NHS, taxation, and our record they have to defend.

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One reason are so fearful in this election is actually because they

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know they have a poor record. Let's look at other part of the election

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campaign. This poster. Particularly digitally doing the rounds. On that

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shopping basket, can you tell us which items take the full 20% VAT?

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It's representative of household shopping, which includes items like

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cleaning products, and we know that food is not that trouble. People

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don't go to the supermarket and say this is -- vatable. So you are

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denying that ?450 extra is being paid? Yes, where'd you get that

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figure? For an average family to pay ?450 a year extra VAT, they would

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have to spend ?21,600 a year on vatable products at 20%. The average

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take-home pay is only 21,009. They have got to spend on all sorts of

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things which are zero VAT. So in addition to the items, has a range

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of products people face in terms of VAT. How could an average family of

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?21,000 a year spent 21,006 and the pound a year on 20% vatable items?

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It's not an annual figure, is it? So what is it then? If it's an annual,

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what is it? The increased VAT in this parliament is calculated over

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the course of a Parliament. For the whole of the Parliament? And you're

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illustrated this with a shopping basket which almost has no VAT on it

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at all? People will be buying a weekly shop in the course of this

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Parliament every week. Did you sign off on this as well? Of course. It

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didn't dawn on you you're putting things on it which have no VAT? If

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you want to argue some people go to the shops and say these are vatable

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or not, I disagree. Even your rent or not, I disagree. Even your rent

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cap announcement went wrong. You're working on the rent rises and it

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turns out it wasn't. It was a post your policy. It is the exception

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rather than the rule to have the your policy. It is the exception

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position we have at the moment. In Northern Ireland we have seen the

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continued rise in terms of the rented sector but there is a

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widespread recognition that for those people in the rented sector,

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change is necessary. Are you coordinating this campaign? It seems

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accident prone. This is a party that has set the agenda more effectively

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than a Conservative party that said when David Cameron was elected he

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wasn't going to bang on about Europe. The day after the election

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we expect the Conservative party to be engulfed in crisis. I'm proud of

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what we talk about and I think there is a clear contrast about a party

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talking about issues people care about, and a Conservative party

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talking about exclusively a referendum. Are you in charge of the

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campaign? I am coordinating the campaign is, yes. The expensive

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election guru you have hired, has he been involved in any of this? We

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have started our discussions with him. You are going to have to brief

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him about British politics because he doesn't know anything about it. I

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make no apology for hiring him. He has a lot of experience in winning

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tight elections and that is what we are expecting. If you are expecting

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us to say, they have passed and we have to hold them accountable, then

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I am sorry but we have a campaign that holds the Government and the

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Conservatives to account for what I think is a very hopeless record in

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government. Thank you. He leads a party with zero MPs but

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his media presence is huge. He's had an expenses scandal, but the public

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didn't seem to mind. He's got a privileged background but he's seen

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as an anti-establishment champion. Nothing seems to stick to him, not

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even eggs. I speak of course of Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a

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moment, but first Giles has been out on the campaign trail ahead of

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elections that could make or break the UKIP leader.

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Nigel Farage likes a stage, and at this stage of the Euro and local

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election campaign he is, like his party, in buoyant mood. They feel

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they are on the verge of what they see as causing an earthquake in

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British politics. Today Nigel is filling thousands seat venues and

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bigger. Not that there's much sign of that at this press launch. But

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it's a threat with serious money behind it, that they believe the

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media and the political elite just haven't realised yet, much less

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learned how to counter it. Not that it's all been plain sailing.

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Offensive comments from some candidates has not only seen UKIP

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labelled as racist, but necessitated a rally by the party to visibly and

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verbally challenge that. The offensive idiotic statements made by

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this handful of people have been lifted up and presented to the great

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British public as if they represent the view of this party, which they

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do not. They never have and they never will. APPLAUSE

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I don't care what you call us, but from this moment on, please do not

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call must trust a racist party. We are not a racist party.

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The need to say that is not just about the European and local

:20:05.:20:06.

elections even at that campaign launch it's clear UKIP's leader has

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set his sights firmly on the ultimate prize. I come from the

:20:10.:20:12.

south of England and I would not want to be seen as an opportunist

:20:13.:20:16.

heading to the north, north Norfolk or whatever it will be. I will make

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my mind up and stand in the general election for somewhere in Kent, East

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Sussex, Hampshire, somewhere in my home patch. Back at UKIP HQ they are

:20:27.:20:30.

still drilling down how the last fortnight of campaigning should go.

:20:31.:20:40.

They aren't taking any chances, and one imagines having offices above

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those of Max Clifford is a reminder how fragile built reputations can be

:20:44.:20:46.

of the bubble bursting. They want their reputation to be built on

:20:47.:20:49.

votes and they know anything but significant success on May 22nd and

:20:50.:20:52.

some seats in Westminster in 2015 isn't going to be good enough. And

:20:53.:21:00.

after that, having sold yourselves as the honest outsiders, that stance

:21:01.:21:03.

is harder to maintain once your people are on the inside. And subtle

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changes from the past are already noticeable. The ordinary man of the

:21:07.:21:12.

people stance is still working. Characteristically outside a pub,

:21:13.:21:15.

Nigel Farage is glad handed by a customer. Two weeks to go, let's

:21:16.:21:21.

cause an upset. Wouldn't that be great? The only sign that such an

:21:22.:21:27.

interaction is different now is the ever presence of bodyguards who

:21:28.:21:38.

shadow his every move. Over lunch ahead of Question Time, a radio

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appearance, and then off to Scotland, I ask him if some of those

:21:42.:21:46.

minded to vote UKIP who see him as a man they'd be comfortable having a

:21:47.:21:49.

drink with are the sort of people he'd be entirely comfortable sitting

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down with. Every political party attracts support from across the

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spectrum and there will be some magnificent people who vote for us

:21:54.:22:02.

and some ne'er-do-wells. The one common thing about UKIP voters is

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that they are often not very political. And it's that people's

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army that if UKIP can get to a polling booth might just create that

:22:12.:22:13.

earthquake they want. Nigel Farage joins me now. When you

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decided not to stand at the new work by election coming said if you lost

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it that the bubble would have burst. What did you mean by that? I

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was asked at seven 20p -- at 7:21pm if I would stand, I have decided by

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the next morning that I would not. I didn't know he was going to resign.

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You claim only a handful of UKIP candidates have ever said things

:22:58.:23:00.

that are either stupid or offensive, I'm right on that, yes? 0.1%, I'd

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rather it was non-. But why have you chosen a candidate to fight this

:23:10.:23:12.

by-election that has said many things most people would regard as

:23:13.:23:19.

stupid or offensive? Roger is fighting this for us, someone of 70

:23:20.:23:24.

years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background,

:23:25.:23:29.

in an age when homosexuality was imprisonable. He had a certain set

:23:30.:23:33.

of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he

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accepts the world has moved on and he is relaxed about it. The comments

:23:38.:23:43.

about homosexuality are not from the dark ages, they are from two or

:23:44.:23:50.

three years ago. From when he was a Conservative, yes, so will you be

:23:51.:23:56.

asking David Cameron that question? I have never seen a single comment

:23:57.:24:00.

from Roger that would be deemed to be offensive. Do you regard his

:24:01.:24:06.

comments on homosexuality as offensive? When he grew up,

:24:07.:24:11.

homosexuality was illegal in this country. But this was in 2012 but he

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said that. Most people have his age still feel uncomfortable about it --

:24:22.:24:30.

of his age. In 2012 he said, if two men can be married, why not three,

:24:31.:24:38.

why not a commune. Many people in this country are disconcerted by the

:24:39.:24:42.

change in the meaning of marriage and in a tolerant society we

:24:43.:24:46.

understand that some people have different views. But he has changed

:24:47.:24:52.

his views now in only two years? He says he is more relaxed about it.

:24:53.:25:02.

Was he your candidate? He is a first-class campaigner who has had

:25:03.:25:06.

30 years in industry, he served in the European Parliament, he is a

:25:07.:25:11.

good candidate. This morning's papers suggest you are about to

:25:12.:25:15.

select Victoria Ayling for Grimsby, but she is on camera saying that, of

:25:16.:25:21.

immigrants, I just want to send a lot back. This is all very

:25:22.:25:25.

interesting, and we can talk about it, all we could talk about the fact

:25:26.:25:29.

that in 12 days we have a European election and every voter across the

:25:30.:25:34.

UK can vote on it and it is really interesting. Are you happy to pick a

:25:35.:25:41.

candidate that says of immigrants, I just want to send a lot back? I have

:25:42.:25:48.

seen the tape, it is a complete misquote and she says it in the

:25:49.:25:55.

context of illegal immigrants. I have seen the full quote and in the

:25:56.:26:01.

context it is not about illegal immigrants. Let's come onto the

:26:02.:26:06.

European campaign, you have used a company that employs Eastern

:26:07.:26:10.

European is to deliver leaflets in London and the Home Counties. Have

:26:11.:26:14.

we? I'm told that in Croydon one branch might have done that. Have

:26:15.:26:20.

you found some indigenous Brits to deliver leaflets in Europe? We have

:26:21.:26:25.

thousands joining the party every month and they are not all

:26:26.:26:30.

indigenous because what is interesting is that in today's

:26:31.:26:35.

opinion polls, UKIP is above the Lib Dems and the Conservatives amongst

:26:36.:26:47.

the indigenous voting. We have not agreed a manifesto for

:26:48.:27:01.

the general election, we will do over the course of the summer. This

:27:02.:27:09.

is in your local election. We are having local elections in some part

:27:10.:27:13.

of the country but we are fighting a European election. It is impossible

:27:14.:27:17.

with the British media to have an intelligent debate on the European

:27:18.:27:23.

question. But as I say, we are also fighting the local elections too.

:27:24.:27:28.

You have promised these tax cuts, how much will they cost? I have met

:27:29.:27:34.

-- read the local election manifesto and it doesn't make those promises.

:27:35.:27:39.

We do talk about local services, we do talk about the need to keep

:27:40.:27:43.

council tax down but we don't talk about income tax. Absolutely not. In

:27:44.:27:51.

local election campaigning you say you would restore cuts to policing,

:27:52.:27:57.

double prison places, restore cuts to front line NHS, spend more on

:27:58.:28:05.

roads, how much would that cost? You are obviously reading different

:28:06.:28:09.

documents to me. We are voting for local councillors in district

:28:10.:28:13.

councils who have got little local budgets. Every party in a manifesto

:28:14.:28:20.

puts his aspirations in it. Have you read it? Of course I have, cover to

:28:21.:28:26.

cover, which is why I'm saying you are misquoting it. By the way, on

:28:27.:28:32.

the bubble bursting, you told that to Norman Smith of the BBC. 75% of

:28:33.:28:39.

British laws are now made in the European Union. Now AstraZeneca is

:28:40.:28:44.

potentially going to be taken over by Pfizer. The BBC is refusing to

:28:45.:28:50.

show the public that that decision cannot be taken here but by an

:28:51.:28:54.

elected European commissioner, and we sit and argue about what is in or

:28:55.:29:01.

not in the local election manifesto. It is my job, but let me come on to

:29:02.:29:12.

AstraZeneca. Is it your view that a British government should stop the

:29:13.:29:19.

takeover of AstraZeneca? It cannot. Can we please get this clear. I sat

:29:20.:29:28.

next to Chuka Umunna the other day at question time and he said what

:29:29.:29:33.

could and couldn't be done. He said I am being studiously neutral, and

:29:34.:29:37.

the reason is we don't have this power. That is what the European

:29:38.:29:44.

elections is about. Should France have the takeover of the food

:29:45.:29:56.

company Danan? We seem to do things to the Nth degree and nobody else

:29:57.:30:05.

does, perhaps because we have this culture and we obey it. In your

:30:06.:30:09.

view, you don't think Pfizer should be able to take over AstraZeneca?

:30:10.:30:18.

There is some good science within AstraZeneca which is in

:30:19.:30:30.

A lot of it is in Sweden and I know that, but there is still a lot of

:30:31.:30:37.

good science being done there. What did you think of the Prime Minister

:30:38.:30:44.

saying he would not form a coalition unless he could have a European

:30:45.:30:51.

referendum? Mr Cameron has given a cast iron guarantee that if he

:30:52.:30:54.

becomes prime minister last year, he will have a referendum on the Lisbon

:30:55.:30:58.

Treaty. That is what he said previously and heeded not deliver on

:30:59.:31:07.

that. The renegotiation is worth nothing. He says he will not form a

:31:08.:31:11.

Government unless he can go forward to a referendum. He is desperately

:31:12.:31:16.

pretending to be Eurosceptic whilst at the same time saying that

:31:17.:31:19.

whatever the result is he will campaign for Britain to remain in.

:31:20.:31:24.

In a sense that is what this election is about. Three traditional

:31:25.:31:31.

parties plus the SNP, all of whom passionately believe in the European

:31:32.:31:37.

Union. UKIP is saying there is a bigger and better world than that.

:31:38.:31:42.

You are travelling with four bodyguards. Has this affected you

:31:43.:31:47.

and your family life? I can't stand it that I have always been a free

:31:48.:31:51.

spirit that has wandered around and do my own thing. I am afraid that

:31:52.:31:56.

the level of threat has... I am sadly... We have a couple of

:31:57.:32:01.

organisations out there headed up by senior Labour Party figures who

:32:02.:32:05.

purport to be against fascism and extremism, who receive funding from

:32:06.:32:09.

the Department for the communities, who receive funding from the trade

:32:10.:32:15.

unions, who have acted in a violent wait more than once. You are saying

:32:16.:32:21.

that the Labour Party is against these threats? No, I am saying...

:32:22.:32:31.

You are still keen to be an MP? Yes. But let's get this out of the

:32:32.:32:36.

way. What UKIP will don't do is we will target for the General Election

:32:37.:32:41.

next year... Wouldn't it be easier if you just went to the Lords? That

:32:42.:32:46.

is where most antiestablishment candidates... That is the last thing

:32:47.:32:52.

I want to do. I will not rest until we are freed from political union

:32:53.:32:56.

and Government from Brussels. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who

:32:57.:33:02.

leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:33:03.:33:05.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:33:06.:33:08.

programme: As ministers at Westminster and Holyrood do battle

:33:09.:33:10.

over Scottish independence, are civil servants being drawn into the

:33:11.:33:13.

fray? Is their much-heralded neutrality

:33:14.:33:17.

being tested during this campaign? And we look back on 15 years of the

:33:18.:33:26.

Scottish Parliament. Good morning. The UK Civil Service

:33:27.:33:29.

is facing unprecedented challenges to its impartiality as London and

:33:30.:33:32.

Edinburgh lock horns over the independence referendum. Mandarins

:33:33.:33:34.

in both Whitehall and St Andrew's House face accusations they're

:33:35.:33:37.

falling under the spell of their respective ministers. But the Sir

:33:38.:33:41.

Humphreys are clear they're duty bound to obey the codes of conduct

:33:42.:33:45.

set out to stop them straying into party political issues. Andrew Kerr

:33:46.:33:53.

reports. Whitehall of old. Dusty civil

:33:54.:33:58.

servants adhering to strict Victorian codes of conduct. The

:33:59.:34:02.

civil service wants to keep that perception. They serve whoever that

:34:03.:34:06.

ministers are, whoever the public elects. The public are the key

:34:07.:34:12.

people. They serve the Government. They are not totally neutral while

:34:13.:34:16.

that Government is in office, but they are politically impartial so

:34:17.:34:20.

they can immediately switch from one policy to possibly a diametric

:34:21.:34:23.

opposed one, as they have done sometimes in the past. MPs and the

:34:24.:34:29.

public administration select committee are investigating their

:34:30.:34:32.

impartiality and the exceptional circumstances of the referendum have

:34:33.:34:36.

given them plenty to chew over. This week, the Scottish branch was

:34:37.:34:40.

questioned over its involvement in the White Paper. Many commentators

:34:41.:34:45.

have raised concerns, including Professor Jim Gallagher, who is

:34:46.:34:50.

advising Better Together. My personal view is that it went a bit

:34:51.:34:59.

too far. It is too much of a political document. Not only does it

:35:00.:35:01.

explain what independence might mean, it goes on to say things like

:35:02.:35:04.

what a Scottish National party Government would do if he were

:35:05.:35:06.

elected after the referendum and after the election, and that seems

:35:07.:35:10.

to push it a wee bit too far. That was defended by the man who signed

:35:11.:35:14.

it off. This was carefully discussed, and led to vary careful

:35:15.:35:22.

caveat in within the text of the White Paper that what we were

:35:23.:35:25.

talking about here was in fact there were two pages opposite of powers

:35:26.:35:30.

that would be available to an independent Scotland, and how, or

:35:31.:35:35.

the SNP to form a Government in 2016 and beyond, they would exercise

:35:36.:35:39.

them. Others have come to his support, including a former First

:35:40.:35:44.

Minister. Henry McLeish work with civil servants both North and South

:35:45.:35:48.

of the border. In Scotland today there is a very fevered political

:35:49.:35:52.

atmosphere and strange tensions and anxieties and often parties want to

:35:53.:35:55.

look at the civil service in more detail to see whether they are

:35:56.:36:03.

stepping over the line. As far as I'm concerned, what we have seen so

:36:04.:36:05.

far in the independence debate does not mean that the line has been

:36:06.:36:08.

crossed. Many believe the Sir Nicholas Furse and, permanent

:36:09.:36:11.

Secretary to the Treasury, stepped over that line when he released a

:36:12.:36:15.

letter strongly advising against a currency union. He was questioned by

:36:16.:36:20.

MPs last month. I regard this as a very exceptional set of

:36:21.:36:23.

circumstances, but it is one where the interests of the British state,

:36:24.:36:27.

the Government, the official Treasury, the pound sterling, all

:36:28.:36:36.

these things, the pound sterling's position in markets were all

:36:37.:36:40.

completely aligned. This was a very serious issue and it seemed to me

:36:41.:36:43.

the line may have been crossed because what we saw here was advice

:36:44.:36:47.

being given, being made public. That does not normally happen. At the end

:36:48.:36:53.

of the day, we know that after the vote, if there is a Yes vote, there

:36:54.:36:56.

will be a completely different contraction on the question of the

:36:57.:37:00.

sterling currency union. These are exceptional circumstances for these

:37:01.:37:03.

officials with conventions designed for a different world, but Professor

:37:04.:37:07.

Gallagher is broadly supportive of the boundaries being stretched in

:37:08.:37:12.

this case. It is critically about what Nick Macpherson thought he was

:37:13.:37:16.

doing was making very clear against the accusation from the Scottish

:37:17.:37:20.

Government that UK ministers were playing politics with the currency,

:37:21.:37:26.

he was saying that as the head of one of the big important

:37:27.:37:28.

institutions that support the currency, no, this was not a

:37:29.:37:32.

political gesture, this was an explanation of the evidence and what

:37:33.:37:37.

the reality is well. The old certainties have changed and the

:37:38.:37:40.

realities of this referendum have hit the ball hat brigade. The

:37:41.:37:44.

mandarins may have turned out to very different rules depending on

:37:45.:37:48.

what happens on the 18th of September.

:37:49.:37:52.

I'm joined by two former special advisors. In London, John McTernan,

:37:53.:37:55.

who worked for Tony Blair in Downing Street. And in Edinburgh, Alex Bell,

:37:56.:37:58.

who worked for the Scottish Government on the white paper. Good

:37:59.:38:02.

afternoon to both of you. Alex Bell, has civil service neutrality been

:38:03.:38:05.

compromised during this referendum campaign? You have to pick up the

:38:06.:38:09.

fact that these are exceptional stuck in senses. As for the charge

:38:10.:38:13.

against the Scottish Government, don't think so. They are doing what

:38:14.:38:17.

they are charged to do, represent the Government of the day. The

:38:18.:38:21.

exceptional thing, as Henry McLeish was just telling us there, was Sir

:38:22.:38:26.

Nick Macpherson's decision to utter these words himself rather than

:38:27.:38:29.

simply get a minister to utter them. But broadly, we are in a very

:38:30.:38:33.

difficult situation. Cerney is the one who has thing to answer for. --

:38:34.:38:40.

Sir Nick. But this is a detail of the referendum that leaves voters

:38:41.:38:42.

very turned off and is not at the heart of what is the destiny of our

:38:43.:38:55.

country. What -- What kind of terms should we consider as to whether

:38:56.:39:05.

advice is published or not? Sir -- It is an evolving situation but Nick

:39:06.:39:12.

MacPherson made the case very strongly and Jim McCulloch made it

:39:13.:39:18.

in your package. This is one of the critical issues. In all the focus

:39:19.:39:22.

groups, we know the public want to know what would the currency of an

:39:23.:39:25.

independent Scotland Bay, and the view of the Bank of England, the

:39:26.:39:30.

Treasury, and all of the main political parties in the UK is

:39:31.:39:34.

Scotland would not get a currency union. But that is a political

:39:35.:39:38.

decision, so is a civil servant being dragged into that political

:39:39.:39:44.

decision? No, he was explaining that the Government, the Bank of England

:39:45.:39:47.

and Nick Macpherson made the same point. There are huge risks to the

:39:48.:39:52.

currency union. It is the same reason the SNP do not want Scotland

:39:53.:39:58.

to join the euro. Your choices are constrained by another country's

:39:59.:40:04.

central bank. So to think that where the politicisation has gone on is

:40:05.:40:08.

the disgraceful publication of the White Paper which was an SNP

:40:09.:40:12.

manifesto, and the appalling behaviour of Sir Peter Housden in

:40:13.:40:17.

allowing that to go ahead, to keep in to the political isolation, the

:40:18.:40:21.

political pressure of the SNP. Civil servants have compiled a White

:40:22.:40:25.

Paper. It did contain details of what the SNP might do if it formed a

:40:26.:40:28.

Government after independence. Is that a step too far for civil

:40:29.:40:33.

servants? I am afraid we are seeing the default for most of this

:40:34.:40:38.

campaign, which is if in doubt, slurred the other side. I do not

:40:39.:40:41.

think Sir Peter Housden has done anything wrong. The elected

:40:42.:40:46.

Government has a policy which was a referendum on independence. They had

:40:47.:40:51.

to produce a White Paper therein. Broadly, Whitehall has to do the

:40:52.:40:55.

same, to represent the views of the connected Government there, which is

:40:56.:40:58.

of course the coalition. What we have here is an attempt to somehow,

:40:59.:41:03.

if we can smear the civil servant, we can somehow smear the policy.

:41:04.:41:08.

This point on the currency union, no doubt a currency union will bring

:41:09.:41:11.

great controls and that is something we could discuss maybe with some

:41:12.:41:15.

fruit, but discussing the idea that we know it to be a certainty, we

:41:16.:41:19.

simply don't, partly because Government ministers in the UK

:41:20.:41:22.

Government themselves have cast doubt on it. But on the White

:41:23.:41:26.

Paper, the civil service code has an obligation not to act in a way that

:41:27.:41:30.

is determined by party political considerations or use resources for

:41:31.:41:36.

a party political purpose. Can it not be argued that that is what

:41:37.:41:40.

happened with a White Paper given that it laid out what a political

:41:41.:41:46.

party would do after the election? For the Iraq war, when the civil

:41:47.:41:51.

servants were preparing documents to justify it, but they pursuing the

:41:52.:41:57.

ideal of one man or a party, or the idea of a state? I am not sure. They

:41:58.:42:01.

different philosophical point, what happened to the White Paper in the

:42:02.:42:07.

1997 referendum of devolution? What's the civil service pursuing

:42:08.:42:11.

the will of one party, the democratically elected Government,

:42:12.:42:15.

or the state? When you are civil servant, you are operating in a,

:42:16.:42:21.

let's say interesting, philosophical area. It is the whole wisdom of the

:42:22.:42:26.

system that stops it from the ring one way or another. Paul Flynn,

:42:27.:42:30.

Labour MP, said the Westminster committee investigating civil

:42:31.:42:35.

service and impartiality was being abused as a platform for the English

:42:36.:42:40.

lead opposition to Scottish independence. Our Westminster MPs

:42:41.:42:44.

against Scottish independence able to investigate this? Paul Flynn made

:42:45.:42:50.

a ridiculous statement. I have no idea why he thinks that the UK

:42:51.:42:54.

Parliament, which includes Scottish MPs representing Scottish voters,

:42:55.:42:57.

should not be looking at the politicisation of the civil service.

:42:58.:43:02.

You can go to that White Paper, the SNP made a party political figures.

:43:03.:43:10.

They invented a cost for Trident, which only appears in SNP documents.

:43:11.:43:15.

If it was a proper White Paper, it would have a balanced discussion of

:43:16.:43:20.

possibilities. It just says what will happen, not what may happen.

:43:21.:43:28.

The White Paper is 670 pages. So far we have had 1200 pages from the UK

:43:29.:43:32.

Government with more to come. Civil servants not being used in the same

:43:33.:43:38.

manner at Whitehall? No, the civil service at Whitehall is doing

:43:39.:43:40.

analyses and you can look at those and I have not seen a single fact in

:43:41.:43:44.

any of those papers. There are things which are not true in the

:43:45.:43:49.

White Paper, they are political, and there are things which took about

:43:50.:43:55.

the SNP plans to have by 2030 8 million migrants in Scotland. That

:43:56.:44:00.

is being concealed because they do not want discussion of immigration.

:44:01.:44:08.

It is a very strange document. I'm prepared to come into the studio to

:44:09.:44:11.

discuss point about the civil service and about the White Paper.

:44:12.:44:19.

I'm not prepared to join in with them his borderline racist slur

:44:20.:44:22.

dragging immigrants into this debate. When Ed Miliband was last in

:44:23.:44:26.

the country the Daily Mail had a front-page splash which said if you

:44:27.:44:29.

vote, yes, there will be a wave of new immigrants. I am deeply alarmed

:44:30.:44:36.

that the Labour Party should be focusing on immigration is what they

:44:37.:44:39.

think is a winning ticket, and do not think it serves either John

:44:40.:44:45.

McTernan or his campaign well. On the issue of publishing advice, we

:44:46.:44:49.

know the Scottish Government has commissioned Frank Mulholland, the

:44:50.:44:52.

Lord Advocate, to give them advice and Europe. Should that be

:44:53.:44:57.

published? Is that a wise move to inform the public? I'm of the view

:44:58.:45:02.

that all legal advice on all things should be published, and obviously

:45:03.:45:07.

we have some outstanding examples on that to do with the Iraq war and

:45:08.:45:10.

other things. But the Government precedent, the habit has been not to

:45:11.:45:15.

do that. If we want a universal agreement across the civil service,

:45:16.:45:22.

the UK in Scotland, that all legal advice should be published, I am

:45:23.:45:27.

afraid the civil service has allowed politicians to pick and choose and

:45:28.:45:30.

that is why we end up in this dubious position. Thank you.

:45:31.:45:35.

Tomorrow marks 15 years since 129 proud and freshly elected-members of

:45:36.:45:37.

the newly reformed Scottish Parliament sat in Edinburgh for the

:45:38.:45:40.

first time. The devolution of powers followed a referendum in 1997 after

:45:41.:45:43.

Tony Blair's government came to power and was seen as unfinished

:45:44.:45:46.

business of the Labour leader's predecessor, John Smith. The

:45:47.:45:50.

anniversary coincides with this year's independence referendum which

:45:51.:45:53.

will decide the next chapter in Scotland's story. Our political

:45:54.:45:56.

correspondent, Tim Reid, has been looking back.

:45:57.:46:05.

It was this act of Parliament, debated over many months at

:46:06.:46:08.

Westminster, which initially handed powers to Edinburgh. It could not be

:46:09.:46:15.

more definitive. There shall be a Scottish parliament. I like that!

:46:16.:46:27.

Donald Dewar was one of the first to be elected, becoming the first first

:46:28.:46:30.

Minister before his untimely death less than a year later. While he had

:46:31.:46:37.

had to persuade Tony Blair about devolution, some other Labour

:46:38.:46:43.

figures were never convinced. We will go down a motorway to a

:46:44.:46:46.

separate state, a journey on which most of us do not want to embark.

:46:47.:46:55.

There have been high points and low point, controversial decisions that

:46:56.:46:59.

have provoked anger. Sometimes politicians will get it right,

:47:00.:47:03.

sometimes they will get it wrong. That is not a reason to rip up the

:47:04.:47:13.

political system. The current first Minister, Alex Salmond also won a

:47:14.:47:17.

seat in those first elections but how committed where he and his party

:47:18.:47:20.

he was asked during the campaign, to devolution. I'm standing for

:47:21.:47:26.

election for the devolved parliament and we respected you have policies

:47:27.:47:34.

to run that devolved government. To be clear, a vote for you is a vote

:47:35.:47:39.

for independence? We are the Independence party. The first five

:47:40.:47:48.

years were spent in temporary premises on loan from the Church of

:47:49.:47:51.

Scotland. The Scottish Parliament adjourned on the 25th day of March

:47:52.:47:59.

in the year 1707 is hereby reconvened. Despite massive backing

:48:00.:48:06.

for devolution, public support waned when from May to July that year, MSP

:48:07.:48:10.

's discussed nothing but procedure and their adventures. For many,

:48:11.:48:14.

those accounts were forgotten and his -- this former presiding

:48:15.:48:30.

officer... Perhaps in the very early days, some people felt a bit wobbly

:48:31.:48:36.

when all of the bad publicity, particularly about the cost of the

:48:37.:48:39.

building that was going on. We have left that well behind us. It is a

:48:40.:48:43.

long time since anyone mentioned that, which shows that we are now

:48:44.:48:48.

part of Scottish society. Holyrood's voting system has allowed

:48:49.:48:53.

smaller parties in much greater say and for the first two terms gave Lib

:48:54.:48:58.

Dems ministerial power. They had a Coalition with Labour. It was

:48:59.:49:06.

difficult at their fences within parties as well as between parties.

:49:07.:49:13.

We had ways of dealing with these difficulties. But while devolution

:49:14.:49:20.

has given Parliament -- has made Parliament more available to voters,

:49:21.:49:27.

there Russell concerns. We have not but read of the old problems, the

:49:28.:49:35.

dominance of major parties. The disappointing performance of the

:49:36.:49:38.

committees that were supposed to be a counterweight and the general

:49:39.:49:42.

secrecy in government. It has certainly been a huge improvement

:49:43.:49:47.

but much more can be done. In the 1990s, there were plans for a change

:49:48.:49:59.

to income tax which was never imposed. If Mr Blair is being

:50:00.:50:07.

serious when he says that the tartan tax is raised, let us be certain by

:50:08.:50:13.

not having the referendum at all. The former Tory prime ministers,

:50:14.:50:24.

John Major, ended up at odds with his own colleagues in Scotland.

:50:25.:50:31.

Having a Scottish government, having a Scottish parliament has made

:50:32.:50:34.

sense. Most of the powers of the Scottish government are similar to

:50:35.:50:39.

the responsible days I had when I was Secretary of State for Scotland

:50:40.:50:44.

but I had to get the consent of the rest of the UK government. The

:50:45.:50:51.

Secretary of State for Scotland has a degree of freedom. Legally,

:50:52.:50:56.

Scotland's devolution journey started here at West Mr. Where will

:50:57.:51:04.

it end? There are two roads, full independence or further devolution.

:51:05.:51:11.

You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Let's cross now for the

:51:12.:51:25.

news with Andrew Kerr. Good morning. The Church of Scotland has invited

:51:26.:51:28.

the leaders of Yes Scotland and Better Together to a special service

:51:29.:51:31.

of reconciliation on the Sunday after the referendum. It will be

:51:32.:51:34.

held in Edinburgh's St Giles Cathderal and led by the the Kirk's

:51:35.:51:37.

new moderator, the Reverend John Chalmers. He hopes the service will

:51:38.:51:40.

help heal divisions after the vote. It's the tenth anniversary of the

:51:41.:51:43.

Stockline Plastics disaster and relatives of the nine people killed

:51:44.:51:47.

will gather in Glasgow to remember their loved ones. The factory in the

:51:48.:51:50.

Maryhill area was destroyed by a propane explosion. The relatives are

:51:51.:51:54.

backing a campaign by the local MSP to allow sheriffs to order safety

:51:55.:51:57.

improvements identified after a tragedy.

:51:58.:52:04.

The Olympic medallist Tom Daley will meet the Commonwealth Baton as it

:52:05.:52:07.

arrives back in the British isles today. It's been all around the

:52:08.:52:10.

world, including here in Uganda, but it'll touch down in Jersey this

:52:11.:52:13.

afternoon. The baton will arrive in Scotland on June the 14th.

:52:14.:52:20.

Let's now take a look at the forecast with Christopher.

:52:21.:52:27.

Hello. And East-West split to the weather. The further west you are, a

:52:28.:52:30.

correlation of bright spells and showers but in the east cloudier

:52:31.:52:34.

with some patchy rain really through Aberdeenshire, down towards Angus

:52:35.:52:39.

and the Lothians later. It should not feel too bad under the sunniest

:52:40.:52:44.

guys, 14 or 15 degrees. Cooler under the cloud. Later, some heavy showers

:52:45.:52:50.

developing, primarily in the south-west, into this evening. That

:52:51.:52:54.

is the forecast for now. That's it. Back to Gary.

:52:55.:52:57.

Thank you. Now it's time to have a look at the

:52:58.:53:01.

Sunday papers and what's happening in the week ahead. And with me today

:53:02.:53:08.

are Jeane Freeman, who's a former senior civil servant and a member of

:53:09.:53:12.

Women For Independence, and the political editor of the Daily

:53:13.:53:20.

Record, David Clegg. Let us start with the story on the front of the

:53:21.:53:27.

Sunday Herald. It was advice given to James Callaghan to set up an oil

:53:28.:53:33.

fund in Scotland, which they did not do. There are many yes supporters

:53:34.:53:37.

who think that Westminster squandered that choice. Many believe

:53:38.:53:50.

that Scotland's oil wealth was wasted by not setting up an oil

:53:51.:53:54.

fund. There is a general consensus that if we had set up an oil fund in

:53:55.:54:00.

the UK, it would have been a worthwhile endeavour. The fact is

:54:01.:54:04.

that it didn't happen and the question is what is better to do

:54:05.:54:10.

going forward. The money was spent on public services rather than being

:54:11.:54:14.

put into that fund. I think it is interesting because the whole

:54:15.:54:17.

argument around having an oil fund is really an argument about how we

:54:18.:54:22.

as a country harness our resources and really it is a straightforward

:54:23.:54:30.

argument that most people, if they had the resources, would say we

:54:31.:54:33.

would use some of it now and put some of it away for the longer term

:54:34.:54:37.

investment, weather that is to help children go through higher education

:54:38.:54:40.

or set up their own homes or whatever. But you cannot spend it in

:54:41.:54:46.

the meantime. You can do a bit of both. It is interesting news but I'm

:54:47.:54:49.

not sure weather it serves us well to start implying somehow some

:54:50.:54:59.

victim had, that they were against us. It reinforces the sound common

:55:00.:55:04.

sense of having such a thing as an oil fund the view fortunate enough

:55:05.:55:11.

to have that kind of resource as a country, you should use it wisely.

:55:12.:55:17.

I'm not sure it does much more than that. On the theme of money, yes

:55:18.:55:26.

Scotland have detailed the donations. The others on the list of

:55:27.:55:33.

fairly prominent independent supporters. No surprises there. The

:55:34.:55:40.

most surprising thing is how much the Weirs gave. It is interesting

:55:41.:55:56.

when you look at the history of this how that one quirk of circumstance

:55:57.:55:59.

very much changed how one side was able to fund itself and deliver its

:56:00.:56:02.

message to the public. They also point out that they have had 11,000

:56:03.:56:08.

donors giving up to seven and a half thousand pounds -- ?7,500. Nothing

:56:09.:56:19.

on the scale of the Weirs donations but quite a lot. That is a fair

:56:20.:56:24.

comment for them to make. Lots of small donations. They are indicators

:56:25.:56:31.

of people engaging in the debate. Yes, it is absolutely fortunate.

:56:32.:56:44.

David 's point is valid. It could be the tipping point in one direction

:56:45.:56:50.

or another. The figures from December four Better Together showed

:56:51.:57:05.

that they had more small donations will stop they have had more small

:57:06.:57:11.

donations which is counterintuitive to how we feel the referendum has

:57:12.:57:15.

been going, which is that yes Scotland has more of a grassroots

:57:16.:57:19.

movement which you would expect to translate into more smaller

:57:20.:57:21.

donations but it appears that that is not what has happened. Our people

:57:22.:57:27.

giving their time rather than their cash? Some of the Better Together

:57:28.:57:36.

donations could have come from the rest of the UK. Further onto the

:57:37.:57:48.

civil service neutrality, given your civil service career. As their

:57:49.:57:56.

neutrality been compromised? It is one of those pieces of nonsense that

:57:57.:58:00.

anoraks get engaged in in order to support one side of the ultimate or

:58:01.:58:06.

another. I was a senior civil servant and a senior adviser, so I'm

:58:07.:58:09.

fortunate enough to have been on both sides of that. The rules

:58:10.:58:16.

clearly defined? They are and the rules are clear about how far their

:58:17.:58:22.

policy advice goes and where it does not tip over into political

:58:23.:58:27.

decision-making. They are crystal clear about that and that is why we

:58:28.:58:30.

have political advisers. I think the notion that the white paper is some

:58:31.:58:35.

kind of step too far for the Scottish civil service is really a

:58:36.:58:40.

piece of nonsense that is being put forward in order to support a

:58:41.:58:43.

particular political viewpoint on the independence campaign and I just

:58:44.:58:47.

don't think it is correct at all. Finally, the Church of Scotland are

:58:48.:58:54.

going to hold a reconsideration service just after the referendum.

:58:55.:59:01.

Is that an overreaction? I find the term reconciliation to be very

:59:02.:59:07.

strong. There is a heated debate and feelings will be hurt and

:59:08.:59:09.

relationships no doubt will suffer but I don't think we are quite at

:59:10.:59:13.

the stage where the nation will be so terribly divided that they cannot

:59:14.:59:16.

come together. Perhaps people who are very on much on the front line

:59:17.:59:23.

are more aware of what is going on. But I do not sense that in general

:59:24.:59:29.

we are getting into a situation that will cause any long-term problems.

:59:30.:59:32.

We will leave things that but thank you both very much for coming in

:59:33.:59:34.

this lunchtime. That's all from the us this week.

:59:35.:59:38.

I'll be back at the same time next week and with a special European

:59:39.:59:41.

elections hustings on Newsnight Scotland tomorrow at 10:30pm. Until

:59:42.:59:43.

then, goodbye.

:59:44.:59:48.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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