18/05/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


18/05/2014

Andrew Neil and Gary Robertson with the latest political news. Ahead of the local and European elections, Andrew Neil talks to Sajid Javid, Simon Hughes and Hilary Benn.


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Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics. Four days to go until

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election day, and be warned, coming to a street near you, a party leader

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on a charm offensive. They all want your vote on Thursday, and

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local elections across England as well. The polls this morning are all

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over the place, so your vote could make a difference. This man has a

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smile on his face. He is 11 point head. He has promised an earthquake.

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He has been asking all the big questions. David Cameron went to a

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chicken place. Where are you going questions. David Cameron went to a

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for large? Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Voting for

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members of the European parliament gets under way on Thursday.

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We'll be debating the big issues live with four of the main

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candidates and asking them why it matters.

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32 boroughs. I am in the studio, with those who think they have got

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all the big answers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So, it

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is the European elections for everybody on Thursday, local

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elections for England and a bit of Northern Ireland as well. They are

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the last elections before the big one, the 2015 general election. Some

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say that these European and local elections will not be much of a

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pointer to how the big one goes. But that will not stop political

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commentators and party gurus from examining them closely. So, what is

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at stake? Thursday May the 22nd is local elections and European

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Parliament elections. These local results should be known

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by Friday. In the European elections, all 751 members of the

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European Parliament will be elected across Europe. 73 MEPs will be let

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it by people living in the UK. But the results will not be announced

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until Sunday night, after voting has closed throughout the 28 member

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states of the EU. Nick Watt, we are in a position where the polls this

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morning cannot tell us what the outcome is going to be on Thursday,

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and the general election is still wide open - we really are in

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uncharted territory? Also it is difficult to know where we are,

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because there is that ComRes poll which shows an 11 point lead amongst

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those certain to vote for UKIP, and another poll in the Sunday Times

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showing that it is a much more slender lead for UKIP. But we know

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that will they win? We do not know, but clearly they will unsettle the

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major parties. Fall or five months ago, we assumed that the UKIP

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success would create panic in the Conservative Party, but that has

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been factored into David Cameron's share price. The Conservative Party

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is remarkably relaxed at the moment, and I wonder whether this time next

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week, when we have the results, whether the two political leaders

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who will be under pressure will be Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg. Nick

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Clegg, because they could go down from 12 MEPs to maybe just three or

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four. And Ed Miliband, because, one year before a general election, he

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should be showing that he is a significant, potent electoral

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force. So, they should all be worried about UKIP, but whereas a

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couple of months ago, we would all have said David Cameron was the one

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who should be worried, now, we are saying it is Mr Miliband and Mr

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Clegg? And of the two, I think it is Ed Miliband who should be worried.

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The Lib Dems are an incredibly resilient party. He described his

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own party as cockroaches, and incredible resilience! I think the

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Lib Dems are ready to take this one, but I think Labour are really wobbly

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at the moment. What UKIP has done, to England, it means that England

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has caught up with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, England

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now has a four party system, which makes it all the more uncertain what

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the outcome will be? Yes, but whether UKIP finish first or second,

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it will be the biggest insurgent event since the European elections

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began in 1979. People talk about the Greens in 1989, but I think they

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finished third. Were UKIP to win a national election or even finish

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runner-up, it would be truly historic. It is reflecting on

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something which is happening across Europe, pianist in Italy, Holland,

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France and in this country. -- populist parties. And it makes first

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past the post look absolutely ridiculous. You could be in a

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situation after the next general election where Labour do not get the

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largest percentage of the vote but they get the largest number of

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seats. First past the post works fairly if there are only two

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parties, but when there are four... We will talk more about that. Let's

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speak now to Suzanne Evans of UKIP. She is at Westminster. Now, UKIP

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claims that there is going to be an earthquake in British politics on

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Thursday. Suppose there is, what does UKIP then need to do to become

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a more grown-up, proper party? I think UKIP has very much become a

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grown-up, proper party. We have been around for 20 years. What we are

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going to be doing after the European elections, if we do cause this

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earthquake, and the polls are looking like we are going to, is we

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will be firmly looking towards 2015, getting our general election

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manifesto out, to keep those votes on board from the euro elections and

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putting forward common-sense policies which really will bring

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Britain back to the people. We want to be able to hold the balance of

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power come the general election. If we can do that then there will be a

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referendum. That will be our aim. You say you are a more grown-up

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party, but when you look at the stream of gaffes and controversies

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created by your candidates and members, I will not go into them

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this morning, at the very least, I would suggest you are needing a more

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robust system of selection? You could say the same for the other

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three parties, who have been around for a lot longer. They have got

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nothing like the embarrassments you had. I am afraid they had. Just this

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week, since Monday, we have had 17 Liberal Democrat, labour or

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Conservative councillors either arrested, charged or convicted on

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all manner of offences. In addition we have had 13 who have been

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involved in some kind of racist, sexist or homophobic incident. I am

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not saying I am proud of any of that. The whole of politics probably

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needs to be cleaned up, that. The whole of politics probably

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certainly do not think we are any worse than the other parties, who

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have much greater resources than worse than the other parties, who

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putting people in power who they know

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putting people in power who they or who have previously belonged to

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far right, fascist parties BNP. Can you continue to be a

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one-man band? The only BNP. Can you continue to be a

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other UKIP petition makes the BNP. Can you continue to be a

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headlines is when they say something loony or objectionable? We have

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huge amount of talent in this party. We have fantastic spokespeople

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across We have fantastic spokespeople

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expertise in the party. We have fantastic spokespeople

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who is a fantastic, We have fantastic spokespeople

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leader. But believe me, We have fantastic spokespeople

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huge amount of talent. When we get our

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huge amount of talent. When we get European elections, we will see many

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more of them I think on television and radio and in the newspapers. We

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are not a one-man band. Who runs your party? The party is run by

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Nigel Farage, our leader. But he spends all his time running between

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television studios and in and out of spends all his time running between

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the pub! You would be amazed how much he does, and of course we have

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a National Executive Committee, like the other parties. So who runs it?

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The National Executive Committee, in conjunction with Nigel Farage, the

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MEPs, the spokespeople, it is a joint effort. Your Local Government

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Minister Stosur is, if joint effort. Your Local Government

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UKIP, you go on to pledge that your councillors will not toe the party

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line, how does that work? -- your local government manifesto says...

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line, how does that work? -- your On the main policies, they will toe

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the party line, because that is obviously what people will be voting

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for. It obviously what people will be voting

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manifesto like the Lib Dems did on 2010 and going back on it. We have

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put forward a lot of positive -- a lot of policies at local government

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level, and those we will stick to. But when it comes to individual,

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local issues, say, a particular development or the closure of a

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school, whatever, UKIP development or the closure of a

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vote what they think is in the development or the closure of a

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interests of the people in the development or the closure of a

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borough, and not according to any development or the closure of a

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party whip system. This plays out really well on the doorstep, I find.

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People do not want their politicians to be in the pockets

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People do not want their politicians party, putting party first, ahead of

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the people. You want people to vote to leave the European Union in a

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referendum - have you published a road map as to what would then

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happen? Yes, there will be a road map. The Lisbon Treaty for the first

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happen? Yes, there will be a road time gave us that exit opportunity.

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Have you published a road map? I am not the legal expert on this but

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there are ways in which you can come out of Europe fairly quickly. There

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is a longer you all as well. But have you published any of that

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detail? Not that I have read. But certainly there are ways to do it.

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We are the sixth strongest world economy, I think we are in a strong

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position having left the EU to be able to negotiate a very good trade

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deal with the European Union. It is what people voted for in 1975. What

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would be our exact status? It would be I think what people voted for

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back in 1975. An independent, sovereign country in a trade

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agreement, a very positive and valuable trade agreement with the

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European Union. I voted in that referendum, I remember it well, 1975

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involved the free movement of people 's... That is something which I do

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not think UKIP or the country wants. 70% of people now are deeply

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concerned about immigration. So it would not be 1975, then? Andrew, it

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sounds like you are complaining that we might have something which is

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better than 1975. I am just trying to find out what it is! That sounds

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like positive to me. We will negotiate a trade deal and all

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manner of issues, whatever is best for the British people. We want our

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sovereignty back, we want our country back. Would you be upset if

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a bunch of Rumanian men moved in next door to you? Where I live, I am

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surrounded by one and two-bedroom flats. If ten Rumanian men moved in

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next door to me, I would want to ask questions. That is very different

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from say a Robinho family moving in next door. I would think, are they

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being ripped off, are they up to no good or are they perhaps being

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trafficked by a gang master? So I think it would be of concern, and I

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do not think there is anything wrong with that, it is a humanitarian

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approach. That would be different from a family moving in who were

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learning to speak English, who wanted to contribute to the British

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economy. Maybe if your boss is watching, he will now have found out

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how to answer that question. Now, what is more glamorous, 24

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hours in the life of a counter-terrorism agent, or 12 hours

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in the life of Adam Fleming, on the campaign trail? I will let you make

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up your own mind. So, it is eight o'clock in the morning here in

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Westminster. Today's challenge is, how much campaigning for the local

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and European elections can we fit into 12 hours? See you back here at

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eight o'clock tonight. Wish me luck. With my cameraman and

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producer, we went to Thurrock in Essex first. I got a very, very warm

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welcome from Abe buoyant UKIP. They have never had this much attention.

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One candidate's misdemeanour ends up on the front page. But you have got

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Lib Dem candidates being convicted of racially aggravated assault, and

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that was not on the front pages of the newspapers. Houdini is fine but

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it must be applied evenly. Have you had to sack Thurrock UKIP members

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for dodgy tweets or anything? Oh, God, no. Next we head to meet a top

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Tory in a different area. We are heading to Eastbourne. But stuck in

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traffic. We are going to miss William Hague. We got there, just in

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time, to ask the really big questions. David Cameron went to

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Nando De Colo last week, where are you going to go for lunch? I do not

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even get time for lunch. I think something in the back of the car. We

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will go down the street and see what people have got to say. Even the

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Foreign Secretary has depressed the flesh at election time? Even the

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Foreign Secretary meets real people. The message William Hague impresses

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upon everyone he meets is that the Tories are the only party offering a

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referendum on our membership of Tories are the only party offering a

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EU. He's off for lunch in the limo. I've got five minutes by the beach.

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This is the best thing about elections, lunch. Do you want one?

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And chips are weirdly relevant at our next stop - the Green Party

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battle bus which is parked in Ashford in Kent. What is special

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about this vehicle? It runs from chip fat oil so it is more friendly

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to the environment. But boss was boiling. The next stop is Gillingham

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to see Labour. Labour have just hired Barack Obama's election guru

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David Axelrod to help them craft their message. What does David

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Axelrod know about the people who live on the street? I know the local

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details but you handle those. Ed Miliband and his party have had to

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handle a few dodgy opinion polls lately, prompting some leadership

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speculation from one activist. Who is your favourite Labour politician?

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Ed Balls. Back in the car and we're flagging. Final stop, Southwark in

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south London. We are in the right place, this is Simon Hughes' Lib Dem

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taxi. The Lib Dems are campaigning as the party of in. But are they in

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trouble? Your party president said the party would be wiped out and

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lose its MEPs. Is that helpful? If he did say that, then no, that's not

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terribly helpful. And let's not forget, every London council is

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having elections too. I have 40 minutes to get back to the

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having elections too. I have 40 Westminster, which calls for

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something drastic, like this. After 212 miles, but will be make it home

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for eight? We have made it, aided, 12 hours of pure politics. Happy

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elections, everyone. Adam Fleming impersonating Jack

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Bauer! Natalie Bennett is in our studio, welcome back. The Greens

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used to be the upcoming party in Britain, now it is UKIP. What went

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wrong? We are in a very good place, looking towards travelling our MEPs

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and we could be the fourth largest group in Parliament after these

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elections. More and more people are recognising we are the only party

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calling for real change, the only party saying we have two stop making

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poor, disadvantaged young people over the mistakes bankers. You have

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made a strong pro-environment stands synonymous with the politics of the

:18:59.:19:04.

left, why have you done that? Why should an equal minded Conservative

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vote for you? I think one of the reasons why many Conservatives, I

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met them in Chester where they are stopping coalbed methane

:19:17.:19:19.

exploration, lots of Conservatives are looking to vote for us beyond

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issues like fracking and the Green belt, and many of them are concerned

:19:27.:19:29.

about the fact we haven't reformed the banks. This morning we had the

:19:30.:19:34.

Bank of England chief coming out and saying we have a huge house price

:19:35.:19:41.

bubble and people recognise that many of the parties offering the

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same are not working. And yet the polls show that the hardline

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greenery is not winning. We are looking to travel our number of MEPs

:19:58.:20:01.

and we have people recognising that we have to change the way our

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economic 's, politics and society works so that everyone has

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sufficient resources within the limits of the one planet because one

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planet is all we have got. You want all electricity to be generated by

:20:18.:20:23.

renewables, is that right? So where would the electricity come from on

:20:24.:20:28.

days when the wind is not blowing? Most of the electricity is there. It

:20:29.:20:35.

is mature. We need to be hooked into a European wide grid, we need a

:20:36.:20:39.

smart grid that will allow for demand to be adjusted according to

:20:40.:20:45.

supply. So we would take French nuclear power, would we? We need to

:20:46.:20:50.

work with a partnership across Europe. We are being left behind and

:20:51.:21:00.

we are losing opportunities. 50% of German renewable electricity is

:21:01.:21:04.

owned by communities and it stays within communities, rather than the

:21:05.:21:15.

big six energy companies. So you have still got to take the French

:21:16.:21:25.

nuclear power. What we need to do... Nuclear is a dead technology,

:21:26.:21:32.

going down in the developed world. At the moment the Government

:21:33.:21:35.

proposes the most expensive proposal for Britain and yet the last two

:21:36.:21:41.

plans took 17 years to bring online, way too slow for what we need now.

:21:42.:21:46.

We know what the Green council would be like if you were to win more

:21:47.:21:50.

seats on Thursday because you run Brighton. Your own Green MP joined

:21:51.:21:56.

strikers against the council, the local Greens are at each other's

:21:57.:22:02.

throats, a council ridden with factionalism, attempts to raise

:22:03.:22:07.

council tax to 5%, attempted coups against the local Green leader by

:22:08.:22:11.

other Greens and you have had to bring in mediators. If you look at

:22:12.:22:17.

the life of people in Brighton and Hove, it has seen its visitor

:22:18.:22:23.

numbers go up by 50,000, it has become the top seaside resort in

:22:24.:22:29.

Britain, we have seen GCSE results going up significantly. These are

:22:30.:22:34.

the things affecting people's lives in Brighton and Hove. 60% of

:22:35.:22:39.

Brighton and Hove people think life is better and the Greens. We have a

:22:40.:22:47.

debate to be had from next year's election and perhaps we can have

:22:48.:22:51.

that debate next year. But you hold up Brighton as the way the city

:22:52.:22:56.

should be run? We have made huge progress, we have found money to be

:22:57.:23:00.

brought into the city to improve Green spaces. I was on the big ride

:23:01.:23:09.

in London yesterday, and we need to change our roads so they worked the

:23:10.:23:14.

people as well as cars. Which side of the picket line were you on in

:23:15.:23:22.

Brighton? With Caroline Lucas? I was in London, travelling around as I do

:23:23.:23:27.

most days. From Penzance to Newcastle and many areas in between.

:23:28.:23:35.

Probably a good move. Thank you. I'm joined now by the Conservative MP,

:23:36.:24:09.

the Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes and Sajid Javid. We want to see a

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European Union resolutely focused on the single market, free trade, and

:24:20.:24:24.

only we can bring about that change. Labour and Lib Dems are happy with

:24:25.:24:28.

the status quo, in fact they would like more integration, and a UKIP

:24:29.:24:35.

party can not deliver the change. Hilary Benn, at this stage positions

:24:36.:24:40.

usually romp home in European elections and no party has gone on

:24:41.:24:44.

to form a government without winning the European elections first. Now it

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suggests you could become second, you haven't handled UKIP very well

:24:52.:24:57.

either. There is a lot of alienation from politics around, globalisation

:24:58.:25:01.

has left some behind and people are concerned about that but UKIP will

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not provide the answer. Nigel Farage only talks about Europe. We are to

:25:08.:25:11.

hear it would not be in the interests of British people to come

:25:12.:25:16.

out of Europe. We do want a season change in Europe, for example we

:25:17.:25:20.

want longer periods when new member states come in. We don't think child

:25:21.:25:26.

tax credits should be paid to children not living in the UK, but

:25:27.:25:31.

Nigel Farage is also proposing to charge us when we see the GP, to

:25:32.:25:38.

halve maternity pay, and he wants a flat tax. UKIP is not the answer to

:25:39.:25:43.

the problems we face and we will continue to campaign as we have done

:25:44.:25:47.

to show that we are putting forward policies on energy prices, and in

:25:48.:25:57.

the end that is what people will look for. Simon Hughes, you will be

:25:58.:26:03.

lucky to come forth. The voters decide these things. Really? I never

:26:04.:26:11.

knew that. My response to the UKIP question is that they get support

:26:12.:26:14.

because they have never been in power, they are never likely. A bit

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like the way you used to never get into power. I accept that, but now

:26:21.:26:30.

we are in government. The reality is that laws made in Brussels, we make

:26:31.:26:34.

together by agreement, and it is the case from the Commons figures that

:26:35.:26:40.

only seven out of 100 laws are made in Brussels. Actually they have been

:26:41.:26:50.

shown not to be the only ones. 14 out of 100. If we were to come out

:26:51.:26:54.

of Europe, we would seriously disadvantage our economics and the

:26:55.:27:04.

jobs... 3 million jobs depend on the European Union. If the Conservatives

:27:05.:27:09.

comes third or even a poor second, it will show that people don't

:27:10.:27:14.

really trust your promise about European referendum. They have been

:27:15.:27:19.

there before, they don't trust you. What we have already shown, despite

:27:20.:27:24.

being in coalition with Liberal Democrats, we have shown progress on

:27:25.:27:28.

Europe, we have vetoed a European treaty when people said we

:27:29.:27:32.

wouldn't, we have cut the European budget which is something Liberal

:27:33.:27:37.

Democrats and Labour MEPs voted against, we cut it by ?8 billion.

:27:38.:27:41.

But overall we are still paying more. We have still cut it. We have

:27:42.:27:51.

taken Britain out of the bailout fund that Labour signed us up to. We

:27:52.:27:57.

are now going to take that same energy to Europe and renegotiate our

:27:58.:28:02.

relationship and let the British people decide in a referendum. Why

:28:03.:28:11.

has Ed Miliband become such a liability for your party? Even your

:28:12.:28:14.

own MPs are speaking out against him. If you look at the polls, we

:28:15.:28:21.

have been in the lead almost consistently. The voters will

:28:22.:28:26.

decide. Ed Miliband is a decent man, but what really marks him out is

:28:27.:28:31.

that he is thinking about the problems the country faces. Simon

:28:32.:28:39.

and Sajid both support the bedroom tax, we will scrap it. Ed Miliband

:28:40.:28:48.

said the energy market doesn't work for consumers, we will freeze energy

:28:49.:28:57.

prices while we change the system. So why are his ratings even lower

:28:58.:29:06.

than Nick Clegg's? They will be voted for next year in the general

:29:07.:29:10.

election, and if I were David Cameron I would ask myself this

:29:11.:29:15.

question - the economy is recovering, why is it that David

:29:16.:29:19.

Cameron and the Conservatives have been behind in the polls? Because in

:29:20.:29:24.

the end the big choice in British politics is between the two parties

:29:25.:29:28.

that say, if we sought the deficit everything is fine, and Labour who

:29:29.:29:34.

say that there are things about this country, the insecurity that has

:29:35.:29:39.

given rise for support for UKIP, and we are the ones talking about doing

:29:40.:29:45.

something about zero hours contracts. The more your leader

:29:46.:29:49.

bangs on about Europe, the worse your poll ratings get. He is out of

:29:50.:29:59.

the kilter with British people. It may not be a majority of people who

:30:00.:30:04.

think that we ought to stay in the European Union, but when you speak

:30:05.:30:09.

to people about it, people understand that we are better in

:30:10.:30:13.

them out. In the elections on Thursday, that is not about who runs

:30:14.:30:17.

Britain, that is for next year. In terms of the local councils, we have

:30:18.:30:20.

battles on the ground, like in my community, where we are trying to

:30:21.:30:26.

take it back from the Labour Party. Affordable housing has just not been

:30:27.:30:30.

delivered. We have delivered that in office and we had admitted to that.

:30:31.:30:36.

-- we are committed to that. Labour have actually demolished homes. So,

:30:37.:30:42.

people want more affordable homes. One issue which is behind people's

:30:43.:30:47.

antipathy towards immigrants is that they cannot get the affordable

:30:48.:30:51.

housing they need. We as a government have delivered more

:30:52.:30:55.

affordable housing in this Parliament -170,000 new properties

:30:56.:30:58.

earning and more, over the next three years. That does not work out

:30:59.:31:10.

that very many per year. Overall housing is a lot less than it was in

:31:11.:31:17.

2006. Let me tell you, under the Labour government, we lost nearly

:31:18.:31:20.

half a million affordable homes. Fewer built than under Mrs Thatcher

:31:21.:31:26.

or under the coalition. What is your last ditch message to the millions

:31:27.:31:31.

of Tory voters thinking of voting UKIP on Thursday? First, what I

:31:32.:31:39.

would say is, Ed Miliband also said that we should not tackle the

:31:40.:31:42.

deficit, it was not a priority. As a result of our resolute focus, we now

:31:43.:31:46.

have the fastest growing economy in the developed world, and more people

:31:47.:31:51.

employed than ever before. I am sure you will have more chance to say

:31:52.:31:55.

that at the general election, what is the answer to my question? We

:31:56.:31:59.

need a Europe which is focused on free trade and the single market.

:32:00.:32:03.

Labour and Lib Dems are happy with the status quo, we are not. We are

:32:04.:32:08.

the only party which can bring about change, UKIP cannot bring about any

:32:09.:32:15.

change. Hilary Benn, why not have a referendum on Europe? If you think

:32:16.:32:21.

like Nigel Farage that you should get out of Europe, I do not agree

:32:22.:32:25.

with him, because Britain's future lies in Europe. My message simply

:32:26.:32:30.

would be, vote for a party which wants to tackle insecurity in the

:32:31.:32:35.

workplace, to give more security to the 9 million people who are now

:32:36.:32:40.

privately renting, build more homes. What Simon has just said about the

:32:41.:32:45.

coalition's housing record, it has been appalling, the lowest level

:32:46.:32:48.

since Stanley Baldwin was Prime Minister. With Labour, you have got

:32:49.:32:53.

a party which will freeze energy prices, more childcare, policies

:32:54.:32:56.

which directly address the problems which people face. I think the

:32:57.:33:02.

public will realise that. UKIP offers absolutely nothing at all for

:33:03.:33:05.

the future of the country. You used to be in favour of a referendum? We

:33:06.:33:11.

are in favour, we voted for one, we have legislated for one. The next

:33:12.:33:14.

time there is a change between Britain and Europe, in the

:33:15.:33:18.

relationship, there will be a referendum. We have supported that.

:33:19.:33:25.

We voted for it. You would obviously want to vote yes in any referendum.

:33:26.:33:32.

We would. But if you had one now, it would be for coming out or staying

:33:33.:33:38.

in, and you are going to wait until there is another step son shall

:33:39.:33:40.

transfer of powers to Brussels, and then say to people, either vote for

:33:41.:33:50.

this substantial transfer or vote to leave! Of course they will vote to

:33:51.:33:56.

leave! Yes, we are not natural partners with the Conservatives, but

:33:57.:34:01.

we do not want to be distracted at the moment by a referendum in the

:34:02.:34:05.

future in relation to Europe. Because what we have done is built

:34:06.:34:12.

our own economy back. That has been the priority. We do not want

:34:13.:34:15.

artificial priorities. The Tories want an artificial date plucked out

:34:16.:34:21.

of the air for their own advantage. We say, let's get on with being

:34:22.:34:25.

positive about being in Europe, and many people on the doorstep

:34:26.:34:28.

absolutely understand that. Yesterday, the Energy Minister said

:34:29.:34:33.

that he thought the party would be willing to campaign for a British

:34:34.:34:36.

withdrawal from the EU if there was not a successful negotiation, a

:34:37.:34:42.

successful repatriation, do you agree with that? First of all, I am

:34:43.:34:52.

very optimistic... I got that I am going into these negotiations with

:34:53.:34:58.

confidence but Michael Fallon is one of your ministerial colleagues, he

:34:59.:35:04.

said that if we cannot get a deal on substantial repatriation, then the

:35:05.:35:08.

party should be willing to campaign for a

:35:09.:35:21.

If you don't get substantial repatriation, will you side with the

:35:22.:35:28.

Prime Minister? I may have only been in politics five years, but I won't

:35:29.:35:32.

answer that kind of hypothetical question. The important thing is...

:35:33.:35:43.

They are hypothetical. I go into negotiations with confidence. If you

:35:44.:35:46.

look at our track record, it suggests we will be successful.

:35:47.:35:53.

Hilary Benn, but is the difference between your attitude and the Lib

:35:54.:35:58.

Dems attitude to a referendum? We have been very clear if it is

:35:59.:36:02.

proposed in the future, and it is unlikely, then further powers will

:36:03.:36:08.

be transferred, we would be back to the British people in a referendum.

:36:09.:36:15.

It would be an in and out referendum. We would only be

:36:16.:36:20.

agreeing to a transfer of powers if we thought it was in the interests

:36:21.:36:23.

of Britain. Individual member states have a veto on that. We believe

:36:24.:36:29.

Britain's plays remains in Europe for economic reasons. But we also

:36:30.:36:36.

want to see some changes in our relationship with Europe, and

:36:37.:36:41.

electing Labour MEPs on Thursday will be a way of boosting that. In

:36:42.:36:48.

what way has everything you said there not been entirely synonymous

:36:49.:36:55.

with the Lib Dems. You asked me about labour's policy. We think this

:36:56.:37:01.

is the right thing. It is the dividing line between us and UKIP.

:37:02.:37:05.

They believe that Britain leaving the European Union would be good for

:37:06.:37:09.

the economy. The truth is it would be really bad for it. So many jobs

:37:10.:37:14.

and investment depends on being part of a larger market in an

:37:15.:37:17.

increasingly globalised world. We had to take action at home to

:37:18.:37:25.

provide... we seem to have lost our connection there. I have one more

:37:26.:37:28.

question for the locals. Give me your best pitch will stop what is

:37:29.:37:32.

the single most important reason people should vote for you in the

:37:33.:37:38.

local elections? Taxpayers money is just that, it doesn't belong to the

:37:39.:37:42.

politicians. We could do more with that money and get more for less. If

:37:43.:37:47.

you look at Conservatives, most haven't raised their council tax,

:37:48.:37:50.

and they have got more for less. That is what people deserve. We will

:37:51.:37:55.

produce the maximum amount possible in a affordable housing to meet the

:37:56.:38:00.

housing needs of Britain, instead of the richest minority having flats

:38:01.:38:04.

and houses that nobody can afford to stop you like I'm sorry we can't go

:38:05.:38:11.

to Hilary Benn. He was a vote Labour, and that will be a good

:38:12.:38:14.

reason. The balance has been restored. Thank you gentlemen. You

:38:15.:38:19.

are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland.

:38:20.:38:25.

Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. The polls open

:38:26.:38:32.

for the European Parliament elections this coming Thursday.

:38:33.:38:35.

Around 500 million citizens in Europe will elect 751 MEPs to serve

:38:36.:38:40.

them on the 22nd of May. Scotland is treated as one constituency, and we

:38:41.:38:45.

elect six MEPs. Last time, only a third of Scots bothered to vote, and

:38:46.:38:50.

turnout is generally low. But this time round, it's an election in

:38:51.:38:52.

which two referendums dominate discussion - the Scottish one and

:38:53.:38:56.

David Cameron's proposed one to stay or leave the EU. Will this boost

:38:57.:39:01.

turnout? Joining us this morning are four of the candidates for election

:39:02.:39:04.

to the European Parliament. David Martin for the Labour Party. Tasmina

:39:05.:39:09.

Ahmed Sheikh for the SNP. George Lyon for the Liberal Democrats. And

:39:10.:39:14.

Dr Ian Duncan for the Conservatives. At the start of their campaign,

:39:15.:39:17.

Green candidate Maggie Chapman said a vote for her party would help

:39:18.:39:28.

deliver "the politics of hope". We offer a politics of hope for

:39:29.:39:32.

Scotland. It is a politics that turns its back on nuclear

:39:33.:39:36.

aggression, and on the relic that is NATO. It is a politics that is

:39:37.:39:40.

welcoming and welcomes people regardless of where they come from,

:39:41.:39:45.

and it is a politics of NTS Doty, of standing up for the poor, not the

:39:46.:39:50.

people who have caused the economic crisis that people are suffering

:39:51.:39:51.

from. UKIP is also contesting the

:39:52.:39:54.

election, and have set their hopes on at least one seat. This is what

:39:55.:39:58.

candidate David Coburn said as they officially began their campaign. The

:39:59.:40:04.

main point of voting UKIP is to get us out of the European Union, to

:40:05.:40:10.

stay in the UK union, and also to make sure that we defend small

:40:11.:40:16.

businesses from government and also from the European Union. The top

:40:17.:40:20.

priority is to keep Scottish business and people are praised of

:40:21.:40:23.

the daft schemes that are going on in the European Union. Also to try

:40:24.:40:28.

to oppose anything of that nature, and get out of the European Union,

:40:29.:40:33.

which is my first objective. I want to make myself redundant.

:40:34.:40:35.

So without further ado, let's speak to the candidates. Thank you for

:40:36.:40:41.

being here. David Martin, you are quoted in a newspaper this morning

:40:42.:40:45.

as saying that independence is no barrier to EU membership? Are you

:40:46.:40:51.

coming around to the SNP's position? It is a strange view of a quote in a

:40:52.:40:57.

newspaper. But I said is that I would expect Scotland one day to

:40:58.:41:02.

become a member... An independent country. I said this on Brian

:41:03.:41:09.

Turner's programme on Friday. I said it was nonsensical to say we could

:41:10.:41:12.

negotiate for membership of the European Union union in 18 months.

:41:13.:41:19.

The presumption is you right in the EU, and we would have to negotiate

:41:20.:41:22.

our way out. That would take a long time. You were quoted as saying we

:41:23.:41:27.

wouldn't be forced into the Schengen and the euro. You like I said we

:41:28.:41:33.

would eventually negotiate our way out. But they would need to be a

:41:34.:41:38.

hiatus now membership. If you have to negotiate, it takes time. In

:41:39.:41:43.

negotiations, you have to make concessions. We haven't heard from

:41:44.:41:46.

the government is what we would concede in order to get out of the

:41:47.:41:52.

Schengen and the Eurozone. It would weaken Scotland's negotiating

:41:53.:41:57.

position if we became an independent nation. What are the SNP's redlines?

:41:58.:42:03.

Weigh it is important to say that we said from the beginning they would

:42:04.:42:09.

be a negotiation. A legal adviser said the 18 month period we set out

:42:10.:42:14.

is realistic. We look forward to having those negotiations as soon as

:42:15.:42:18.

we have a yes vote in September. Glaciations means you don't get

:42:19.:42:21.

everything you want. You have to give and take. Which area are you

:42:22.:42:28.

willing to give and take on? -- negotiations. What we would go to

:42:29.:42:34.

the table with is a programme for Scotland about getting the best

:42:35.:42:38.

possible deal, in the knowledge that Scotland has a tremendous amount to

:42:39.:42:42.

offer the European Union. We expect negotiations will be positive. Do

:42:43.:42:46.

you expect at the end of these the glaciations that Scotland will be in

:42:47.:42:49.

the same position as the UK is at this moment? -- negotiations. The UK

:42:50.:42:59.

is not exactly a positive member of the European Union. We will enter

:43:00.:43:04.

negotiations with the view of having positive positions, one which will

:43:05.:43:10.

be embraced. Negotiations have to start in order to come to

:43:11.:43:13.

conclusion, but I'm confident that Scotland has a amount to offer. I

:43:14.:43:18.

expect we will be embraced by the European Union for FAQs like we have

:43:19.:43:28.

so many oil reserves. Ultimately, as the Scottish Government says, you

:43:29.:43:33.

contribute a huge amount to Europe, so why wouldn't you want Scotland as

:43:34.:43:39.

a member? What we do know is that the president of the council said

:43:40.:43:44.

categorically that on independent Scotland becoming a third country,

:43:45.:43:47.

we would have to negotiate our way back in. The key issue is what is

:43:48.:43:51.

the Scottish Government willing to give up to get out entry back in?

:43:52.:43:56.

The United Kingdom is widely regarded as a detached member of the

:43:57.:44:00.

European Union because it has a pick and mix menu. It picks some of the

:44:01.:44:05.

good things and rejects others. The real question is whether other 20

:44:06.:44:09.

member states want another small semidetached member state? I think

:44:10.:44:16.

not. Which powers with a gift to Brussels and how much extra are they

:44:17.:44:19.

willing to pay to rejoin Europe? That is the key question. We haven't

:44:20.:44:23.

heard anything from the SNP about what they are willing to trade.

:44:24.:44:26.

Which mechanism would be deployed that would put Scotland outside of

:44:27.:44:32.

the EU given that as part of the UK, Scotland has been a member for over

:44:33.:44:38.

40 years? The treaties, all of the, and the United Kingdom is a member

:44:39.:44:43.

state. If we vote leave, they believe the treaties, and therefore

:44:44.:44:46.

we have to renegotiate our way back in. That is clear. Nowhere in any of

:44:47.:44:51.

the treaties is Scotland's recognised as a member state. We

:44:52.:44:55.

need to negotiate and get all of the 28 member states to agree to

:44:56.:44:59.

Scotland becoming a full member state. That is simple politics. The

:45:00.:45:06.

Liberal Democrats are all over the place. A senior Liberal Democrat MP

:45:07.:45:13.

says there is no mechanism to remove Scotland from the EU because they

:45:14.:45:23.

are part of the United Kingdom. You should never have said that

:45:24.:45:27.

membership would be automatic. He said that was a mistake. Do you

:45:28.:45:34.

agree? Won as a senior Liberal Democrat on Spanish radio, they said

:45:35.:45:38.

there was no mechanism under which you could remove Scotland from them

:45:39.:45:43.

and should have the EU? Did you make a mistake in not being honest with

:45:44.:45:50.

people. I have to say there is no automatic mechanism. That is the

:45:51.:45:56.

first time the SNP have admitted a mistake. They do not know how long

:45:57.:46:02.

that will take. Ultimately, those negotiations will

:46:03.:46:06.

sit -- will be successful and there is every chance that an independent

:46:07.:46:09.

Scotland will be a member of the EU and potentially could argue for

:46:10.:46:19.

that? I don't say it is automatic, I say... Can I return to the question?

:46:20.:46:28.

The first thing is I don't doubt Scotland can be a member. Then Mac

:46:29.:46:35.

is it gave everything it has by now, if it gave up all of those things,

:46:36.:46:42.

it would get in. The reality is that families will have to pay more tax

:46:43.:46:46.

and have less freedoms. All of these issues will be lost. If you want to

:46:47.:46:51.

give in in 18 months, give it all up, and you will get in. The demands

:46:52.:46:59.

being put forward would make Nigel Farage blush. You should pledge

:47:00.:47:02.

right now to sign up to every part of the EU, and not ask for the

:47:03.:47:06.

semidetached status but the UK in droves. -- that the UK enjoys.

:47:07.:47:16.

Why-mac you are all in agreement that when they talked about the

:47:17.:47:26.

Scottish becoming part of the EU, that was wrong. Every politician has

:47:27.:47:34.

spoken, whether it is the Spanish Foreign Minister or not, this will

:47:35.:47:39.

be a matter of politics. Oh have their separatist agendas, and they

:47:40.:47:45.

are concerned about that. English is not the Spanish Prime Minister's

:47:46.:47:48.

first-line witch. He said it would be extremely difficult. And it is my

:47:49.:47:57.

position. It is probably loose talk, but he might well be right. There is

:47:58.:48:02.

nothing certain in any of this. The Spanish group to gain and say we

:48:03.:48:07.

don't want to encourage this. -- the Spanish could dig in. I don't see

:48:08.:48:21.

other countries signing up to this. We're not taking before benefits of

:48:22.:48:25.

members of the be it a kingdom. We have food banks in Scotland which we

:48:26.:48:31.

should be ashamed of. There is a rise in the use of food banks.

:48:32.:48:34.

Westminster refused to take any money from the EU that was on offer.

:48:35.:48:41.

We are spending 500 million euros, that's 443 euros, and we decided we

:48:42.:48:45.

wouldn't take a penny to assist the peace looks like people in Scotland

:48:46.:48:50.

who are suffering hardship due to the cuts made by the Conservative

:48:51.:48:57.

government. We are not taking... If you don't mind, I would like it if

:48:58.:49:03.

people didn't speak over each other. If I may finish my point, there is

:49:04.:49:07.

much we can gain by membership of the European Union. This is not a

:49:08.:49:12.

virtue of us being part of the United Kingdom, which is not working

:49:13.:49:23.

for Scotland. If you want to be a constructive member of the EU, you

:49:24.:49:26.

have to sign up for all elements of it. Westminster is not working for

:49:27.:49:33.

Scotland, and certainly not on the EU stage. Why wouldn't Scotland want

:49:34.:49:45.

to be a full member of the European Union in?

:49:46.:49:52.

It is our position to retain a currency union, and we would be

:49:53.:50:01.

going into the EU with that. Doesn't matter if this takes longer than 18

:50:02.:50:07.

months? Yes, because you would have removal of investment, and this

:50:08.:50:13.

uncertainty, foreign students, foreign nationals living in this

:50:14.:50:16.

country whose status would not be clear. It will be chaotic if we

:50:17.:50:25.

cannot do this within 18 months. Professor James Crawford did say he

:50:26.:50:29.

thought the 18 month timetable was realistic. He said UN membership

:50:30.:50:38.

will be straightforward. In the case of the EU there are things to

:50:39.:50:46.

negotiate. These are not automatic. I didn't say automatic. He did say

:50:47.:50:58.

18 months seems realistic. He then went on to clarify. I don't believe

:50:59.:51:02.

18 months is realistic. If you take the Czech republic when it separated

:51:03.:51:08.

from tobacco, they required 30 treaties and 20,000 legal agreements

:51:09.:51:11.

in order to separate two countries that went through a so-called Velvet

:51:12.:51:17.

divorce. We will be doing all of this between Scotland and the rest

:51:18.:51:21.

of the UK within 18 months, negotiating with the U. This was the

:51:22.:51:28.

same EU that was able to subsume southern Germany overnight. Hang

:51:29.:51:36.

on, you did not want me to interrupts let me finish my point.

:51:37.:51:41.

East Germany joined the EU by joining Germany. So there were no

:51:42.:51:46.

negotiations required. The territory of the EU is determined by the

:51:47.:51:50.

territory of the member states. If Scotland leaves the UK we are out of

:51:51.:52:02.

the U. The referendum threatens jobs and investment in Scotland. What is

:52:03.:52:06.

important to people in Scotland right now is to protect jobs. We

:52:07.:52:10.

have access to 500 million citizens in the EU and it is about time we

:52:11.:52:16.

stood up for the people of Scotland. Let's talk about that in out

:52:17.:52:21.

referendum. Your party is offering a referendum on EU membership if your

:52:22.:52:25.

party is returned at the 2015 general election. Right now, I think

:52:26.:52:32.

we can make a big change. We are bringing about reform, we've begun

:52:33.:52:37.

to recognise what some of the key areas will be. Financial services,

:52:38.:52:44.

oil exploration and so forth. And you think it will be difficult for

:52:45.:52:48.

these negotiations to take place with an independent Scotland. We are

:52:49.:52:55.

a member of the EU, those negotiations are straightforward.

:52:56.:53:00.

They aren't if leaders don't want to go along with them. That's where it

:53:01.:53:07.

becomes interesting. We did not manage to secure the first cut to

:53:08.:53:13.

the EU budget without joining together with the pins and the

:53:14.:53:19.

Swedes. Michael Fallon has said the Conservative Party is willing to

:53:20.:53:24.

campaign for withdrawal from the EU if it couldn't successfully

:53:25.:53:25.

negotiate its membership. So can if it couldn't successfully

:53:26.:53:30.

the UK to exit the UK if it couldn't successfully

:53:31.:53:34.

the Prime Minister party support the idea of the

:53:35.:53:53.

referendum then? party support the idea of the

:53:54.:53:59.

part of the coalition to guarantee party support the idea of the

:54:00.:54:05.

be given a choice and there would party support the idea of the

:54:06.:54:07.

a referendum. We believed it was Administration. We increased

:54:08.:54:28.

investment and education, tackling youth unemployment and transport. We

:54:29.:54:34.

can achieve reform from within by seeking allies. That is where we

:54:35.:54:37.

fundamentally disagree with the Conservatives. We're better off

:54:38.:54:41.

within Europe if we people in work. You refuse to asked

:54:42.:54:45.

people in work. You refuse to asked people, you refuse to give them a

:54:46.:54:56.

choice. You are part of the Coalition Government and we believe

:54:57.:54:57.

you should Coalition Government and we believe

:54:58.:55:01.

parties have said the same thing but they refuse to do so.

:55:02.:55:07.

parties have said the same thing but Prime Minister had a cast iron

:55:08.:55:08.

agreement for the Lisbon Treaty he renege on that. What he is saying

:55:09.:55:19.

right now is if we are elected in the general election, there will be

:55:20.:55:21.

a referendum. the general election, there will be

:55:22.:55:25.

people to have a choice. Just like the referendum you are having. Given

:55:26.:55:29.

that your party is keen on the referendum you are having. Given

:55:30.:55:35.

the people of Scotland a referendum on whether to stay or leave the U?

:55:36.:55:41.

This is not looking much like a on whether to stay or leave the U?

:55:42.:55:49.

was going to make was one about the NI referendum. It has been said

:55:50.:56:01.

there was no reference in that to a mechanism for that. Currently, there

:56:02.:56:11.

is no appetite for a referendum on the EU in Scotland. If I may and so

:56:12.:56:19.

the question... Just a second. You say there is no appetite, but

:56:20.:56:24.

actually the most recent opinion polls show only 48% support the US

:56:25.:56:32.

in Scotland. Not even a majority of people in Scotland support the EU at

:56:33.:56:42.

this stage. I think we will find the position will greatly differ when

:56:43.:56:47.

the referendum... If I might finish the sentence, when the referendum

:56:48.:56:51.

takes place in September and we have the chance to speak only for

:56:52.:56:57.

Scotland. One of your MPs told the BBC in March that once a deal was

:56:58.:57:02.

negotiated on Europe as part of an independent Scotland, there might be

:57:03.:57:09.

an act is certain logic to holding a referendum. Well, the best thing

:57:10.:57:16.

about independence is we will be allowed to have democracy in

:57:17.:57:19.

Scotland, at this moment in time we do not have the opportunity to do

:57:20.:57:23.

so. So once you have negotiated your position in Europe you don't think

:57:24.:57:30.

there is a sense in offering... You have to pay more to be part in the

:57:31.:57:35.

club. We should at least have the people of Scotland whether they want

:57:36.:57:38.

to join under those new terms and conditions. I think once we have the

:57:39.:57:43.

referendum and we take stock and we have the opportunity to find a speak

:57:44.:57:47.

for Scotland and to finally backed the Scotland... At the moment, I

:57:48.:57:51.

would like to have the chance to be taking a seat at the table in the EU

:57:52.:57:56.

to negotiate for Scotland, because Scotland is losing out currently. In

:57:57.:58:03.

terms of jobs and investment. We don't participate in the Park -- the

:58:04.:58:11.

youth employment scheme to assist young people getting into jobs. We

:58:12.:58:26.

don't take advantage of funds. It is not so long ago that your MEP Alan

:58:27.:58:30.

Smith said there should indeed be a referendum on Scotland's

:58:31.:58:34.

relationship with the EU. Now you have flipped and flopped. You are no

:58:35.:58:40.

longer going to asked about membership because you no longer

:58:41.:58:51.

trust them. More powers to Brussels is part of the negotiations. You

:58:52.:58:54.

have to ask people if they agree with that. That is conjecture on

:58:55.:59:02.

your port -- part, we have not even entered negotiations. These

:59:03.:59:11.

gentlemen well I hope the batting for Scotland when we enter those

:59:12.:59:17.

negotiations. David Martin, will you be batting for Scotland's I will be

:59:18.:59:23.

on Thursday to win the European elections, and we haven't actually

:59:24.:59:28.

talked about what we going to do if we are elected. My party is clear

:59:29.:59:32.

that we do not want to use it to campaign for in and out the European

:59:33.:59:41.

Union. We want to use it to decide on job opportunities for people in

:59:42.:59:45.

Scotland, how we continue to reform the banking sector, how we tackle

:59:46.:59:51.

tax evasion and avoidance, free trade deals that benefit the rest of

:59:52.:59:55.

the world, balanced by environmental and labour 's data was -- labour

:59:56.:00:05.

issues. Do you not think the public want a say on the future of Scotland

:00:06.:00:15.

in EE U? Yes, my party is clear on what we would do. The real concerns

:00:16.:00:21.

of people is jobs, security and the economy. That is why we argue

:00:22.:00:24.

passionately that staying in Europe is a way to do that. There are

:00:25.:00:32.

thousands of jobs that are linked to our membership of the European

:00:33.:00:35.

Union. We are the fastest-growing economy in Europe at the moment,

:00:36.:00:44.

and... Just one second. Another issue is immigration and I want to

:00:45.:00:50.

ask about that. Scotland seems less resistant to immigration than other

:00:51.:00:54.

parts of the UK, but a poll has said they do want fewer migrants in

:00:55.:01:02.

Scotland. If you look at the figures for the UK, we reckon there are

:01:03.:01:05.

roughly 2.3 million migrants living in the UK and 2.2 million British

:01:06.:01:14.

citizens living elsewhere in Europe, so it is almost even. They often

:01:15.:01:20.

plug skills gaps, they are helping universities by being students. I

:01:21.:01:24.

actually think they contribute significantly to our economy, so I

:01:25.:01:29.

am not in favour of tackling immigration the way it has been

:01:30.:01:35.

described by UKIP. What I would say is the problem with immigration

:01:36.:01:40.

sometimes is an scrupulous employers abuse migrants to undercut wages and

:01:41.:01:44.

conditions. That is why some of the resentment comes from. We've said

:01:45.:01:55.

the minimum fine for an employer abusing migrants would be ?15,000.

:01:56.:01:59.

We had said there should be some co-labour standards to stop

:02:00.:02:03.

employers using migrant labour to undercut conditions. So, British

:02:04.:02:11.

jobs for British workers? No, no, the opposite.

:02:12.:02:15.

jobs for British workers? No, no, economy but we should make sure

:02:16.:02:15.

basic social standards are upheld. There are couple of things to

:02:16.:02:21.

stress. People coming here speculatively to

:02:22.:02:29.

try to find jobs, People coming here speculatively to

:02:30.:02:33.

problem. David and I were People coming here speculatively to

:02:34.:02:39.

Party should have put in transition People coming here speculatively to

:02:40.:02:45.

given at option again with Bulgaria and remain near and they did not.

:02:46.:02:50.

But figures show the fear of people coming from these countries is much

:02:51.:02:57.

greater than the reality. The reality is, transition controls make

:02:58.:02:59.

a difference and they should have been adopted

:03:00.:03:03.

a difference and they should have situation. We can argue mistakes

:03:04.:03:06.

were made in the past. Should there be more or

:03:07.:03:12.

were made in the past. Should there EU going forward's we do

:03:13.:03:14.

were made in the past. Should there there is a skills gap in so many

:03:15.:03:14.

parts of the country. We've got there is a skills gap in so many

:03:15.:03:19.

make sure migrants are still a vibrant and significant part of

:03:20.:03:24.

Oracle on me. We need them to fill the jobs that we find are

:03:25.:03:26.

Oracle on me. We need them to fill done. Surely the logical thing is

:03:27.:03:34.

that we need more of them. What we don't want is people

:03:35.:03:38.

the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism is a risk

:03:39.:03:42.

the hope of finding a job. Benefit British taxpayers.

:03:43.:03:48.

the hope of finding a job. Benefit across Europe is fundamental to the

:03:49.:03:54.

the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism, because what we want to

:03:55.:04:00.

here and work, pay taxes and contribute to our society. How many

:04:01.:04:05.

here and work, pay taxes and people are coming here to be benefit

:04:06.:04:10.

here and work, pay taxes and tourists's recent -- benefit

:04:11.:04:17.

tourists? They are actually a net benefit to

:04:18.:04:33.

tourists? They are actually a net certainly evidence that this

:04:34.:04:35.

tourists? They are actually a net problem. We want to send clear

:04:36.:04:36.

signal you are willing to make a

:04:37.:04:41.

contribution you are willing to make a

:04:42.:04:47.

else does. The real challenge is you are willing to make a

:04:48.:04:49.

reform Europe to make sure we get growth across Europe. So that some

:04:50.:04:55.

of the countries where these people are coming from grow their own

:04:56.:05:00.

economies. That will benefit the UK because 50% of our exports are to

:05:01.:05:05.

the European Union. So reforming the services and the energy market,

:05:06.:05:13.

these are the big challenges. Do we need more or less immigration to the

:05:14.:05:19.

EU? This is anti-devolution and anti immigration. We want a welcome and

:05:20.:05:27.

socially just Scotland, and let -- let's be clear, in terms of

:05:28.:05:38.

immigration, there is parity. The population declined in Scotland. Do

:05:39.:05:45.

we need more migrants in Scotland? We need to welcome people to

:05:46.:05:51.

Scotland, and the rich tapestry that makes up Scotland. You would

:05:52.:06:04.

remember when the rules were relaxed in terms of where many and and

:06:05.:06:08.

Bulgarians, there was concern that would be an influx of millions of

:06:09.:06:12.

people. The figures have gone down by 4000. Let's be clear, Scotland is

:06:13.:06:17.

a welcoming and inclusive society. We want to be on the world stage

:06:18.:06:21.

with that in mind. We want to welcome people to come here and work

:06:22.:06:31.

here. Everybody else has talked about reform. What kind of reform

:06:32.:06:34.

would you argue for if you were elected? Reform is absolutely

:06:35.:06:40.

necessary, and we will work with our partners to ensure that happens.

:06:41.:06:45.

Whether that is in relation... Well, we will be having partners in the

:06:46.:06:53.

referendum in September. I am asking what happens now if you are elected

:06:54.:06:57.

on Thursday? The reforms are you pushing for? We want to have parity

:06:58.:07:04.

in what happens in the European institutions, and winning powers

:07:05.:07:08.

that they should be locally to benefit the people of Scotland, and

:07:09.:07:13.

looking at the petition we started of having one seat for the European

:07:14.:07:18.

Parliament in Brussels. You have no partners in the European Parliament,

:07:19.:07:22.

and are so is as -- isolated you have to sit with the green group. To

:07:23.:07:28.

come back to my previous point, but is it that Westminster has

:07:29.:07:31.

negotiated for Scotland in the EU? We have the worst... You keep

:07:32.:07:40.

talking about Westminster. We have the worst deal for our farmers in

:07:41.:07:48.

Scotland than any state in the EU. He indicated he would give up

:07:49.:07:52.

Scotland's share in the rebate to support farmers. Would you support

:07:53.:07:57.

that? Weigh when we have independence, the rest of the UK

:07:58.:08:00.

will also have to negotiate their position. Let's talk about the

:08:01.:08:08.

Common agricultural policy. The Scotland get a good deal? Pool-mac

:08:09.:08:13.

Scotland gets a reasonable deal. We will deliver some way around ?4.1

:08:14.:08:19.

billion to Scotland over the coming years. Currently we have the second

:08:20.:08:29.

highest payments in Europe. We negotiated to make sure we had all

:08:30.:08:33.

of the powers in Holyrood. Unfortunately, the minister has been

:08:34.:08:37.

delaying for months, and we still don't know how the Scottish see a

:08:38.:08:43.

people work. Northern and Welsh farmers already know. We saw an

:08:44.:08:49.

increase in development funding. We also negotiated all of this for

:08:50.:08:55.

Scottish priorities for young entrants, which was our main

:08:56.:09:01.

priority, and also the priorities to tackle farm subsidies. In all of

:09:02.:09:06.

these areas, indeed Richard welcomed the deal, when it was introduced.

:09:07.:09:12.

The UK Government dividing up the money across the UK in a way we are

:09:13.:09:17.

disadvantage is Scotland because Scotland has a stronger case for

:09:18.:09:20.

more money than other areas of the UK. You have to remember that we

:09:21.:09:26.

have a fully devolved system, which is unusual compared to the rest of

:09:27.:09:30.

Europe. The country has one particular system. We have been able

:09:31.:09:35.

to recognise Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to create

:09:36.:09:37.

differences and recognised local needs. That is significant. As

:09:38.:09:42.

Scotland's needs being met with Mac or Mac I think they are being

:09:43.:09:48.

addressed in one way or another. What we are seeing is that

:09:49.:09:53.

priorities for farmers are met, and we don't know whether as the rocket

:09:54.:09:58.

has delayed despite telling farmers what they can expect. I expect we

:09:59.:10:06.

will be told after the referendum. Scotland was entitled to 230 million

:10:07.:10:10.

euros being paid to it, and there was a cross-party agreement that

:10:11.:10:13.

should come directed to Scotland will stop notwithstanding,

:10:14.:10:17.

Westminster decided to keep the money for themselves and split

:10:18.:10:20.

amongst the four regions, when it was Scotland that required the

:10:21.:10:22.

money. There was a cross-party agreement. The reality is that

:10:23.:10:29.

Scotland would have had 1 billion extra euros. A full review has been

:10:30.:10:35.

offered in 2016 with implementation. It is now been

:10:36.:10:42.

conceded that they would have to negotiate back into Europe to hold

:10:43.:10:45.

onto what we currently with no opportunity until 2022 negotiate a

:10:46.:10:51.

battle sediment for Scottish farmers. The real danger is that the

:10:52.:10:56.

formula used for new member statements fix state make --

:10:57.:11:01.

statements is to get 20% of the settlement payments across Europe.

:11:02.:11:11.

Is Scotland disadvantaged by the way the CAP money is being divided? When

:11:12.:11:17.

I was first elected, I was very critical. We have reformed to this

:11:18.:11:20.

policy. We are now in a position where payment of farmers is made on

:11:21.:11:25.

the basis that single farm payment is no longer linked to production.

:11:26.:11:29.

We don't have the overproduction we used to have in agriculture.

:11:30.:11:32.

Inevitably, that means some of the subsidies have gone down. The

:11:33.:11:36.

situation has changed in relation to farming. I thought Britain got a

:11:37.:11:41.

good deal at the end... The Scotland get a good deal? Scotland is ?1

:11:42.:11:48.

billion out. Everybody is down. The point is that George was making is

:11:49.:11:52.

that if we were in into panic country, we would have a nap or

:11:53.:11:55.

cultural budget slashed if we were part of the European, because that

:11:56.:11:59.

is the pattern across the whole of the union. Countries have seen that

:12:00.:12:05.

they are not getting the same share of the agricultural money. More

:12:06.:12:10.

scaremongering that we hear from the Westminster parties. It is not

:12:11.:12:15.

matter of fact. It is entire conjecture on your part. It is about

:12:16.:12:22.

time that Scotland had the opportunity to speak for herself on

:12:23.:12:25.

an EU state, and come September and a yes vote, we will have that

:12:26.:12:35.

opportunity. As I said, the formula that has been used for the last ten

:12:36.:12:38.

countries that have joined the European Union in terms of CAP

:12:39.:12:45.

funny, if that was the outcome of Scotland's negotiation, that would

:12:46.:12:51.

be ?300 million going to Scottish farming. That is not a prospect

:12:52.:12:55.

farmers would be supporting. Very briefly. The big risk is that

:12:56.:13:02.

farmers will not be subsidised. It is bad for farmers and Scotland.

:13:03.:13:06.

That is what will happen in that referendum. But we thank you for

:13:07.:13:08.

being here. Before we go, just a reminder. There

:13:09.:13:11.

are three other parties on your ballot paper for the European

:13:12.:13:14.

Election - Britain First, the BNP, and No2EU. Voting takes place on

:13:15.:13:21.

Thursday the 22nd of May. The result won't be out until the following

:13:22.:13:25.

Sunday, in line with the rest of Europe. More details about all the

:13:26.:13:29.

parties and candidates, and the election generally, is on BBC

:13:30.:13:31.

Scotland news website. That's all from us this week. I'll

:13:32.:13:44.

be back at the same time next week. Until then, goodbye.

:13:45.:13:54.

The Sunday before we go to the polls in local and European elections, Andrew Neil talks to the culture secretary Sajid Javid, Liberal Democrat Simon Hughes and Labour's Hilary Benn.


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