18/05/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Gary Robertson with the latest political news. Ahead of the local and European elections, Andrew Neil talks to Sajid Javid, Simon Hughes and Hilary Benn.

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Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics. Four days to go until


election day, and be warned, coming to a street near you, a party leader


on a charm offensive. They all want your vote on Thursday, and


local elections across England as well. The polls this morning are all


over the place, so your vote could make a difference. This man has a


smile on his face. He is 11 point head. He has promised an earthquake.


He has been asking all the big questions. David Cameron went to a


chicken place. Where are you going questions. David Cameron went to a


for large? Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Voting for


members of the European parliament gets under way on Thursday.


We'll be debating the big issues live with four of the main


candidates and asking them why it matters.


32 boroughs. I am in the studio, with those who think they have got


all the big answers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So, it


is the European elections for everybody on Thursday, local


elections for England and a bit of Northern Ireland as well. They are


the last elections before the big one, the 2015 general election. Some


say that these European and local elections will not be much of a


pointer to how the big one goes. But that will not stop political


commentators and party gurus from examining them closely. So, what is


at stake? Thursday May the 22nd is local elections and European


Parliament elections. These local results should be known


by Friday. In the European elections, all 751 members of the


European Parliament will be elected across Europe. 73 MEPs will be let


it by people living in the UK. But the results will not be announced


until Sunday night, after voting has closed throughout the 28 member


states of the EU. Nick Watt, we are in a position where the polls this


morning cannot tell us what the outcome is going to be on Thursday,


and the general election is still wide open - we really are in


uncharted territory? Also it is difficult to know where we are,


because there is that ComRes poll which shows an 11 point lead amongst


those certain to vote for UKIP, and another poll in the Sunday Times


showing that it is a much more slender lead for UKIP. But we know


that will they win? We do not know, but clearly they will unsettle the


major parties. Fall or five months ago, we assumed that the UKIP


success would create panic in the Conservative Party, but that has


been factored into David Cameron's share price. The Conservative Party


is remarkably relaxed at the moment, and I wonder whether this time next


week, when we have the results, whether the two political leaders


who will be under pressure will be Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg. Nick


Clegg, because they could go down from 12 MEPs to maybe just three or


four. And Ed Miliband, because, one year before a general election, he


should be showing that he is a significant, potent electoral


force. So, they should all be worried about UKIP, but whereas a


couple of months ago, we would all have said David Cameron was the one


who should be worried, now, we are saying it is Mr Miliband and Mr


Clegg? And of the two, I think it is Ed Miliband who should be worried.


The Lib Dems are an incredibly resilient party. He described his


own party as cockroaches, and incredible resilience! I think the


Lib Dems are ready to take this one, but I think Labour are really wobbly


at the moment. What UKIP has done, to England, it means that England


has caught up with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, England


now has a four party system, which makes it all the more uncertain what


the outcome will be? Yes, but whether UKIP finish first or second,


it will be the biggest insurgent event since the European elections


began in 1979. People talk about the Greens in 1989, but I think they


finished third. Were UKIP to win a national election or even finish


runner-up, it would be truly historic. It is reflecting on


something which is happening across Europe, pianist in Italy, Holland,


France and in this country. -- populist parties. And it makes first


past the post look absolutely ridiculous. You could be in a


situation after the next general election where Labour do not get the


largest percentage of the vote but they get the largest number of


seats. First past the post works fairly if there are only two


parties, but when there are four... We will talk more about that. Let's


speak now to Suzanne Evans of UKIP. She is at Westminster. Now, UKIP


claims that there is going to be an earthquake in British politics on


Thursday. Suppose there is, what does UKIP then need to do to become


a more grown-up, proper party? I think UKIP has very much become a


grown-up, proper party. We have been around for 20 years. What we are


going to be doing after the European elections, if we do cause this


earthquake, and the polls are looking like we are going to, is we


will be firmly looking towards 2015, getting our general election


manifesto out, to keep those votes on board from the euro elections and


putting forward common-sense policies which really will bring


Britain back to the people. We want to be able to hold the balance of


power come the general election. If we can do that then there will be a


referendum. That will be our aim. You say you are a more grown-up


party, but when you look at the stream of gaffes and controversies


created by your candidates and members, I will not go into them


this morning, at the very least, I would suggest you are needing a more


robust system of selection? You could say the same for the other


three parties, who have been around for a lot longer. They have got


nothing like the embarrassments you had. I am afraid they had. Just this


week, since Monday, we have had 17 Liberal Democrat, labour or


Conservative councillors either arrested, charged or convicted on


all manner of offences. In addition we have had 13 who have been


involved in some kind of racist, sexist or homophobic incident. I am


not saying I am proud of any of that. The whole of politics probably


needs to be cleaned up, that. The whole of politics probably


certainly do not think we are any worse than the other parties, who


have much greater resources than worse than the other parties, who


putting people in power who they know


putting people in power who they or who have previously belonged to


far right, fascist parties BNP. Can you continue to be a


one-man band? The only BNP. Can you continue to be a


other UKIP petition makes the BNP. Can you continue to be a


headlines is when they say something loony or objectionable? We have


huge amount of talent in this party. We have fantastic spokespeople


across We have fantastic spokespeople


expertise in the party. We have fantastic spokespeople


who is a fantastic, We have fantastic spokespeople


leader. But believe me, We have fantastic spokespeople


huge amount of talent. When we get our


huge amount of talent. When we get European elections, we will see many


more of them I think on television and radio and in the newspapers. We


are not a one-man band. Who runs your party? The party is run by


Nigel Farage, our leader. But he spends all his time running between


television studios and in and out of spends all his time running between


the pub! You would be amazed how much he does, and of course we have


a National Executive Committee, like the other parties. So who runs it?


The National Executive Committee, in conjunction with Nigel Farage, the


MEPs, the spokespeople, it is a joint effort. Your Local Government


Minister Stosur is, if joint effort. Your Local Government


UKIP, you go on to pledge that your councillors will not toe the party


line, how does that work? -- your local government manifesto says...


line, how does that work? -- your On the main policies, they will toe


the party line, because that is obviously what people will be voting


for. It obviously what people will be voting


manifesto like the Lib Dems did on 2010 and going back on it. We have


put forward a lot of positive -- a lot of policies at local government


level, and those we will stick to. But when it comes to individual,


local issues, say, a particular development or the closure of a


school, whatever, UKIP development or the closure of a


vote what they think is in the development or the closure of a


interests of the people in the development or the closure of a


borough, and not according to any development or the closure of a


party whip system. This plays out really well on the doorstep, I find.


People do not want their politicians to be in the pockets


People do not want their politicians party, putting party first, ahead of


the people. You want people to vote to leave the European Union in a


referendum - have you published a road map as to what would then


happen? Yes, there will be a road map. The Lisbon Treaty for the first


happen? Yes, there will be a road time gave us that exit opportunity.


Have you published a road map? I am not the legal expert on this but


there are ways in which you can come out of Europe fairly quickly. There


is a longer you all as well. But have you published any of that


detail? Not that I have read. But certainly there are ways to do it.


We are the sixth strongest world economy, I think we are in a strong


position having left the EU to be able to negotiate a very good trade


deal with the European Union. It is what people voted for in 1975. What


would be our exact status? It would be I think what people voted for


back in 1975. An independent, sovereign country in a trade


agreement, a very positive and valuable trade agreement with the


European Union. I voted in that referendum, I remember it well, 1975


involved the free movement of people 's... That is something which I do


not think UKIP or the country wants. 70% of people now are deeply


concerned about immigration. So it would not be 1975, then? Andrew, it


sounds like you are complaining that we might have something which is


better than 1975. I am just trying to find out what it is! That sounds


like positive to me. We will negotiate a trade deal and all


manner of issues, whatever is best for the British people. We want our


sovereignty back, we want our country back. Would you be upset if


a bunch of Rumanian men moved in next door to you? Where I live, I am


surrounded by one and two-bedroom flats. If ten Rumanian men moved in


next door to me, I would want to ask questions. That is very different


from say a Robinho family moving in next door. I would think, are they


being ripped off, are they up to no good or are they perhaps being


trafficked by a gang master? So I think it would be of concern, and I


do not think there is anything wrong with that, it is a humanitarian


approach. That would be different from a family moving in who were


learning to speak English, who wanted to contribute to the British


economy. Maybe if your boss is watching, he will now have found out


how to answer that question. Now, what is more glamorous, 24


hours in the life of a counter-terrorism agent, or 12 hours


in the life of Adam Fleming, on the campaign trail? I will let you make


up your own mind. So, it is eight o'clock in the morning here in


Westminster. Today's challenge is, how much campaigning for the local


and European elections can we fit into 12 hours? See you back here at


eight o'clock tonight. Wish me luck. With my cameraman and


producer, we went to Thurrock in Essex first. I got a very, very warm


welcome from Abe buoyant UKIP. They have never had this much attention.


One candidate's misdemeanour ends up on the front page. But you have got


Lib Dem candidates being convicted of racially aggravated assault, and


that was not on the front pages of the newspapers. Houdini is fine but


it must be applied evenly. Have you had to sack Thurrock UKIP members


for dodgy tweets or anything? Oh, God, no. Next we head to meet a top


Tory in a different area. We are heading to Eastbourne. But stuck in


traffic. We are going to miss William Hague. We got there, just in


time, to ask the really big questions. David Cameron went to


Nando De Colo last week, where are you going to go for lunch? I do not


even get time for lunch. I think something in the back of the car. We


will go down the street and see what people have got to say. Even the


Foreign Secretary has depressed the flesh at election time? Even the


Foreign Secretary meets real people. The message William Hague impresses


upon everyone he meets is that the Tories are the only party offering a


referendum on our membership of Tories are the only party offering a


EU. He's off for lunch in the limo. I've got five minutes by the beach.


This is the best thing about elections, lunch. Do you want one?


And chips are weirdly relevant at our next stop - the Green Party


battle bus which is parked in Ashford in Kent. What is special


about this vehicle? It runs from chip fat oil so it is more friendly


to the environment. But boss was boiling. The next stop is Gillingham


to see Labour. Labour have just hired Barack Obama's election guru


David Axelrod to help them craft their message. What does David


Axelrod know about the people who live on the street? I know the local


details but you handle those. Ed Miliband and his party have had to


handle a few dodgy opinion polls lately, prompting some leadership


speculation from one activist. Who is your favourite Labour politician?


Ed Balls. Back in the car and we're flagging. Final stop, Southwark in


south London. We are in the right place, this is Simon Hughes' Lib Dem


taxi. The Lib Dems are campaigning as the party of in. But are they in


trouble? Your party president said the party would be wiped out and


lose its MEPs. Is that helpful? If he did say that, then no, that's not


terribly helpful. And let's not forget, every London council is


having elections too. I have 40 minutes to get back to the


having elections too. I have 40 Westminster, which calls for


something drastic, like this. After 212 miles, but will be make it home


for eight? We have made it, aided, 12 hours of pure politics. Happy


elections, everyone. Adam Fleming impersonating Jack


Bauer! Natalie Bennett is in our studio, welcome back. The Greens


used to be the upcoming party in Britain, now it is UKIP. What went


wrong? We are in a very good place, looking towards travelling our MEPs


and we could be the fourth largest group in Parliament after these


elections. More and more people are recognising we are the only party


calling for real change, the only party saying we have two stop making


poor, disadvantaged young people over the mistakes bankers. You have


made a strong pro-environment stands synonymous with the politics of the


left, why have you done that? Why should an equal minded Conservative


vote for you? I think one of the reasons why many Conservatives, I


met them in Chester where they are stopping coalbed methane


exploration, lots of Conservatives are looking to vote for us beyond


issues like fracking and the Green belt, and many of them are concerned


about the fact we haven't reformed the banks. This morning we had the


Bank of England chief coming out and saying we have a huge house price


bubble and people recognise that many of the parties offering the


same are not working. And yet the polls show that the hardline


greenery is not winning. We are looking to travel our number of MEPs


and we have people recognising that we have to change the way our


economic 's, politics and society works so that everyone has


sufficient resources within the limits of the one planet because one


planet is all we have got. You want all electricity to be generated by


renewables, is that right? So where would the electricity come from on


days when the wind is not blowing? Most of the electricity is there. It


is mature. We need to be hooked into a European wide grid, we need a


smart grid that will allow for demand to be adjusted according to


supply. So we would take French nuclear power, would we? We need to


work with a partnership across Europe. We are being left behind and


we are losing opportunities. 50% of German renewable electricity is


owned by communities and it stays within communities, rather than the


big six energy companies. So you have still got to take the French


nuclear power. What we need to do... Nuclear is a dead technology,


going down in the developed world. At the moment the Government


proposes the most expensive proposal for Britain and yet the last two


plans took 17 years to bring online, way too slow for what we need now.


We know what the Green council would be like if you were to win more


seats on Thursday because you run Brighton. Your own Green MP joined


strikers against the council, the local Greens are at each other's


throats, a council ridden with factionalism, attempts to raise


council tax to 5%, attempted coups against the local Green leader by


other Greens and you have had to bring in mediators. If you look at


the life of people in Brighton and Hove, it has seen its visitor


numbers go up by 50,000, it has become the top seaside resort in


Britain, we have seen GCSE results going up significantly. These are


the things affecting people's lives in Brighton and Hove. 60% of


Brighton and Hove people think life is better and the Greens. We have a


debate to be had from next year's election and perhaps we can have


that debate next year. But you hold up Brighton as the way the city


should be run? We have made huge progress, we have found money to be


brought into the city to improve Green spaces. I was on the big ride


in London yesterday, and we need to change our roads so they worked the


people as well as cars. Which side of the picket line were you on in


Brighton? With Caroline Lucas? I was in London, travelling around as I do


most days. From Penzance to Newcastle and many areas in between.


Probably a good move. Thank you. I'm joined now by the Conservative MP,


the Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes and Sajid Javid. We want to see a


European Union resolutely focused on the single market, free trade, and


only we can bring about that change. Labour and Lib Dems are happy with


the status quo, in fact they would like more integration, and a UKIP


party can not deliver the change. Hilary Benn, at this stage positions


usually romp home in European elections and no party has gone on


to form a government without winning the European elections first. Now it


suggests you could become second, you haven't handled UKIP very well


either. There is a lot of alienation from politics around, globalisation


has left some behind and people are concerned about that but UKIP will


not provide the answer. Nigel Farage only talks about Europe. We are to


hear it would not be in the interests of British people to come


out of Europe. We do want a season change in Europe, for example we


want longer periods when new member states come in. We don't think child


tax credits should be paid to children not living in the UK, but


Nigel Farage is also proposing to charge us when we see the GP, to


halve maternity pay, and he wants a flat tax. UKIP is not the answer to


the problems we face and we will continue to campaign as we have done


to show that we are putting forward policies on energy prices, and in


the end that is what people will look for. Simon Hughes, you will be


lucky to come forth. The voters decide these things. Really? I never


knew that. My response to the UKIP question is that they get support


because they have never been in power, they are never likely. A bit


like the way you used to never get into power. I accept that, but now


we are in government. The reality is that laws made in Brussels, we make


together by agreement, and it is the case from the Commons figures that


only seven out of 100 laws are made in Brussels. Actually they have been


shown not to be the only ones. 14 out of 100. If we were to come out


of Europe, we would seriously disadvantage our economics and the


jobs... 3 million jobs depend on the European Union. If the Conservatives


comes third or even a poor second, it will show that people don't


really trust your promise about European referendum. They have been


there before, they don't trust you. What we have already shown, despite


being in coalition with Liberal Democrats, we have shown progress on


Europe, we have vetoed a European treaty when people said we


wouldn't, we have cut the European budget which is something Liberal


Democrats and Labour MEPs voted against, we cut it by ?8 billion.


But overall we are still paying more. We have still cut it. We have


taken Britain out of the bailout fund that Labour signed us up to. We


are now going to take that same energy to Europe and renegotiate our


relationship and let the British people decide in a referendum. Why


has Ed Miliband become such a liability for your party? Even your


own MPs are speaking out against him. If you look at the polls, we


have been in the lead almost consistently. The voters will


decide. Ed Miliband is a decent man, but what really marks him out is


that he is thinking about the problems the country faces. Simon


and Sajid both support the bedroom tax, we will scrap it. Ed Miliband


said the energy market doesn't work for consumers, we will freeze energy


prices while we change the system. So why are his ratings even lower


than Nick Clegg's? They will be voted for next year in the general


election, and if I were David Cameron I would ask myself this


question - the economy is recovering, why is it that David


Cameron and the Conservatives have been behind in the polls? Because in


the end the big choice in British politics is between the two parties


that say, if we sought the deficit everything is fine, and Labour who


say that there are things about this country, the insecurity that has


given rise for support for UKIP, and we are the ones talking about doing


something about zero hours contracts. The more your leader


bangs on about Europe, the worse your poll ratings get. He is out of


the kilter with British people. It may not be a majority of people who


think that we ought to stay in the European Union, but when you speak


to people about it, people understand that we are better in


them out. In the elections on Thursday, that is not about who runs


Britain, that is for next year. In terms of the local councils, we have


battles on the ground, like in my community, where we are trying to


take it back from the Labour Party. Affordable housing has just not been


delivered. We have delivered that in office and we had admitted to that.


-- we are committed to that. Labour have actually demolished homes. So,


people want more affordable homes. One issue which is behind people's


antipathy towards immigrants is that they cannot get the affordable


housing they need. We as a government have delivered more


affordable housing in this Parliament -170,000 new properties


earning and more, over the next three years. That does not work out


that very many per year. Overall housing is a lot less than it was in


2006. Let me tell you, under the Labour government, we lost nearly


half a million affordable homes. Fewer built than under Mrs Thatcher


or under the coalition. What is your last ditch message to the millions


of Tory voters thinking of voting UKIP on Thursday? First, what I


would say is, Ed Miliband also said that we should not tackle the


deficit, it was not a priority. As a result of our resolute focus, we now


have the fastest growing economy in the developed world, and more people


employed than ever before. I am sure you will have more chance to say


that at the general election, what is the answer to my question? We


need a Europe which is focused on free trade and the single market.


Labour and Lib Dems are happy with the status quo, we are not. We are


the only party which can bring about change, UKIP cannot bring about any


change. Hilary Benn, why not have a referendum on Europe? If you think


like Nigel Farage that you should get out of Europe, I do not agree


with him, because Britain's future lies in Europe. My message simply


would be, vote for a party which wants to tackle insecurity in the


workplace, to give more security to the 9 million people who are now


privately renting, build more homes. What Simon has just said about the


coalition's housing record, it has been appalling, the lowest level


since Stanley Baldwin was Prime Minister. With Labour, you have got


a party which will freeze energy prices, more childcare, policies


which directly address the problems which people face. I think the


public will realise that. UKIP offers absolutely nothing at all for


the future of the country. You used to be in favour of a referendum? We


are in favour, we voted for one, we have legislated for one. The next


time there is a change between Britain and Europe, in the


relationship, there will be a referendum. We have supported that.


We voted for it. You would obviously want to vote yes in any referendum.


We would. But if you had one now, it would be for coming out or staying


in, and you are going to wait until there is another step son shall


transfer of powers to Brussels, and then say to people, either vote for


this substantial transfer or vote to leave! Of course they will vote to


leave! Yes, we are not natural partners with the Conservatives, but


we do not want to be distracted at the moment by a referendum in the


future in relation to Europe. Because what we have done is built


our own economy back. That has been the priority. We do not want


artificial priorities. The Tories want an artificial date plucked out


of the air for their own advantage. We say, let's get on with being


positive about being in Europe, and many people on the doorstep


absolutely understand that. Yesterday, the Energy Minister said


that he thought the party would be willing to campaign for a British


withdrawal from the EU if there was not a successful negotiation, a


successful repatriation, do you agree with that? First of all, I am


very optimistic... I got that I am going into these negotiations with


confidence but Michael Fallon is one of your ministerial colleagues, he


said that if we cannot get a deal on substantial repatriation, then the


party should be willing to campaign for a


If you don't get substantial repatriation, will you side with the


Prime Minister? I may have only been in politics five years, but I won't


answer that kind of hypothetical question. The important thing is...


They are hypothetical. I go into negotiations with confidence. If you


look at our track record, it suggests we will be successful.


Hilary Benn, but is the difference between your attitude and the Lib


Dems attitude to a referendum? We have been very clear if it is


proposed in the future, and it is unlikely, then further powers will


be transferred, we would be back to the British people in a referendum.


It would be an in and out referendum. We would only be


agreeing to a transfer of powers if we thought it was in the interests


of Britain. Individual member states have a veto on that. We believe


Britain's plays remains in Europe for economic reasons. But we also


want to see some changes in our relationship with Europe, and


electing Labour MEPs on Thursday will be a way of boosting that. In


what way has everything you said there not been entirely synonymous


with the Lib Dems. You asked me about labour's policy. We think this


is the right thing. It is the dividing line between us and UKIP.


They believe that Britain leaving the European Union would be good for


the economy. The truth is it would be really bad for it. So many jobs


and investment depends on being part of a larger market in an


increasingly globalised world. We had to take action at home to


provide... we seem to have lost our connection there. I have one more


question for the locals. Give me your best pitch will stop what is


the single most important reason people should vote for you in the


local elections? Taxpayers money is just that, it doesn't belong to the


politicians. We could do more with that money and get more for less. If


you look at Conservatives, most haven't raised their council tax,


and they have got more for less. That is what people deserve. We will


produce the maximum amount possible in a affordable housing to meet the


housing needs of Britain, instead of the richest minority having flats


and houses that nobody can afford to stop you like I'm sorry we can't go


to Hilary Benn. He was a vote Labour, and that will be a good


reason. The balance has been restored. Thank you gentlemen. You


are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland.


Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. The polls open


for the European Parliament elections this coming Thursday.


Around 500 million citizens in Europe will elect 751 MEPs to serve


them on the 22nd of May. Scotland is treated as one constituency, and we


elect six MEPs. Last time, only a third of Scots bothered to vote, and


turnout is generally low. But this time round, it's an election in


which two referendums dominate discussion - the Scottish one and


David Cameron's proposed one to stay or leave the EU. Will this boost


turnout? Joining us this morning are four of the candidates for election


to the European Parliament. David Martin for the Labour Party. Tasmina


Ahmed Sheikh for the SNP. George Lyon for the Liberal Democrats. And


Dr Ian Duncan for the Conservatives. At the start of their campaign,


Green candidate Maggie Chapman said a vote for her party would help


deliver "the politics of hope". We offer a politics of hope for


Scotland. It is a politics that turns its back on nuclear


aggression, and on the relic that is NATO. It is a politics that is


welcoming and welcomes people regardless of where they come from,


and it is a politics of NTS Doty, of standing up for the poor, not the


people who have caused the economic crisis that people are suffering


from. UKIP is also contesting the


election, and have set their hopes on at least one seat. This is what


candidate David Coburn said as they officially began their campaign. The


main point of voting UKIP is to get us out of the European Union, to


stay in the UK union, and also to make sure that we defend small


businesses from government and also from the European Union. The top


priority is to keep Scottish business and people are praised of


the daft schemes that are going on in the European Union. Also to try


to oppose anything of that nature, and get out of the European Union,


which is my first objective. I want to make myself redundant.


So without further ado, let's speak to the candidates. Thank you for


being here. David Martin, you are quoted in a newspaper this morning


as saying that independence is no barrier to EU membership? Are you


coming around to the SNP's position? It is a strange view of a quote in a


newspaper. But I said is that I would expect Scotland one day to


become a member... An independent country. I said this on Brian


Turner's programme on Friday. I said it was nonsensical to say we could


negotiate for membership of the European Union union in 18 months.


The presumption is you right in the EU, and we would have to negotiate


our way out. That would take a long time. You were quoted as saying we


wouldn't be forced into the Schengen and the euro. You like I said we


would eventually negotiate our way out. But they would need to be a


hiatus now membership. If you have to negotiate, it takes time. In


negotiations, you have to make concessions. We haven't heard from


the government is what we would concede in order to get out of the


Schengen and the Eurozone. It would weaken Scotland's negotiating


position if we became an independent nation. What are the SNP's redlines?


Weigh it is important to say that we said from the beginning they would


be a negotiation. A legal adviser said the 18 month period we set out


is realistic. We look forward to having those negotiations as soon as


we have a yes vote in September. Glaciations means you don't get


everything you want. You have to give and take. Which area are you


willing to give and take on? -- negotiations. What we would go to


the table with is a programme for Scotland about getting the best


possible deal, in the knowledge that Scotland has a tremendous amount to


offer the European Union. We expect negotiations will be positive. Do


you expect at the end of these the glaciations that Scotland will be in


the same position as the UK is at this moment? -- negotiations. The UK


is not exactly a positive member of the European Union. We will enter


negotiations with the view of having positive positions, one which will


be embraced. Negotiations have to start in order to come to


conclusion, but I'm confident that Scotland has a amount to offer. I


expect we will be embraced by the European Union for FAQs like we have


so many oil reserves. Ultimately, as the Scottish Government says, you


contribute a huge amount to Europe, so why wouldn't you want Scotland as


a member? What we do know is that the president of the council said


categorically that on independent Scotland becoming a third country,


we would have to negotiate our way back in. The key issue is what is


the Scottish Government willing to give up to get out entry back in?


The United Kingdom is widely regarded as a detached member of the


European Union because it has a pick and mix menu. It picks some of the


good things and rejects others. The real question is whether other 20


member states want another small semidetached member state? I think


not. Which powers with a gift to Brussels and how much extra are they


willing to pay to rejoin Europe? That is the key question. We haven't


heard anything from the SNP about what they are willing to trade.


Which mechanism would be deployed that would put Scotland outside of


the EU given that as part of the UK, Scotland has been a member for over


40 years? The treaties, all of the, and the United Kingdom is a member


state. If we vote leave, they believe the treaties, and therefore


we have to renegotiate our way back in. That is clear. Nowhere in any of


the treaties is Scotland's recognised as a member state. We


need to negotiate and get all of the 28 member states to agree to


Scotland becoming a full member state. That is simple politics. The


Liberal Democrats are all over the place. A senior Liberal Democrat MP


says there is no mechanism to remove Scotland from the EU because they


are part of the United Kingdom. You should never have said that


membership would be automatic. He said that was a mistake. Do you


agree? Won as a senior Liberal Democrat on Spanish radio, they said


there was no mechanism under which you could remove Scotland from them


and should have the EU? Did you make a mistake in not being honest with


people. I have to say there is no automatic mechanism. That is the


first time the SNP have admitted a mistake. They do not know how long


that will take. Ultimately, those negotiations will


sit -- will be successful and there is every chance that an independent


Scotland will be a member of the EU and potentially could argue for


that? I don't say it is automatic, I say... Can I return to the question?


The first thing is I don't doubt Scotland can be a member. Then Mac


is it gave everything it has by now, if it gave up all of those things,


it would get in. The reality is that families will have to pay more tax


and have less freedoms. All of these issues will be lost. If you want to


give in in 18 months, give it all up, and you will get in. The demands


being put forward would make Nigel Farage blush. You should pledge


right now to sign up to every part of the EU, and not ask for the


semidetached status but the UK in droves. -- that the UK enjoys.


Why-mac you are all in agreement that when they talked about the


Scottish becoming part of the EU, that was wrong. Every politician has


spoken, whether it is the Spanish Foreign Minister or not, this will


be a matter of politics. Oh have their separatist agendas, and they


are concerned about that. English is not the Spanish Prime Minister's


first-line witch. He said it would be extremely difficult. And it is my


position. It is probably loose talk, but he might well be right. There is


nothing certain in any of this. The Spanish group to gain and say we


don't want to encourage this. -- the Spanish could dig in. I don't see


other countries signing up to this. We're not taking before benefits of


members of the be it a kingdom. We have food banks in Scotland which we


should be ashamed of. There is a rise in the use of food banks.


Westminster refused to take any money from the EU that was on offer.


We are spending 500 million euros, that's 443 euros, and we decided we


wouldn't take a penny to assist the peace looks like people in Scotland


who are suffering hardship due to the cuts made by the Conservative


government. We are not taking... If you don't mind, I would like it if


people didn't speak over each other. If I may finish my point, there is


much we can gain by membership of the European Union. This is not a


virtue of us being part of the United Kingdom, which is not working


for Scotland. If you want to be a constructive member of the EU, you


have to sign up for all elements of it. Westminster is not working for


Scotland, and certainly not on the EU stage. Why wouldn't Scotland want


to be a full member of the European Union in?


It is our position to retain a currency union, and we would be


going into the EU with that. Doesn't matter if this takes longer than 18


months? Yes, because you would have removal of investment, and this


uncertainty, foreign students, foreign nationals living in this


country whose status would not be clear. It will be chaotic if we


cannot do this within 18 months. Professor James Crawford did say he


thought the 18 month timetable was realistic. He said UN membership


will be straightforward. In the case of the EU there are things to


negotiate. These are not automatic. I didn't say automatic. He did say


18 months seems realistic. He then went on to clarify. I don't believe


18 months is realistic. If you take the Czech republic when it separated


from tobacco, they required 30 treaties and 20,000 legal agreements


in order to separate two countries that went through a so-called Velvet


divorce. We will be doing all of this between Scotland and the rest


of the UK within 18 months, negotiating with the U. This was the


same EU that was able to subsume southern Germany overnight. Hang


on, you did not want me to interrupts let me finish my point.


East Germany joined the EU by joining Germany. So there were no


negotiations required. The territory of the EU is determined by the


territory of the member states. If Scotland leaves the UK we are out of


the U. The referendum threatens jobs and investment in Scotland. What is


important to people in Scotland right now is to protect jobs. We


have access to 500 million citizens in the EU and it is about time we


stood up for the people of Scotland. Let's talk about that in out


referendum. Your party is offering a referendum on EU membership if your


party is returned at the 2015 general election. Right now, I think


we can make a big change. We are bringing about reform, we've begun


to recognise what some of the key areas will be. Financial services,


oil exploration and so forth. And you think it will be difficult for


these negotiations to take place with an independent Scotland. We are


a member of the EU, those negotiations are straightforward.


They aren't if leaders don't want to go along with them. That's where it


becomes interesting. We did not manage to secure the first cut to


the EU budget without joining together with the pins and the


Swedes. Michael Fallon has said the Conservative Party is willing to


campaign for withdrawal from the EU if it couldn't successfully


negotiate its membership. So can if it couldn't successfully


the UK to exit the UK if it couldn't successfully


the Prime Minister party support the idea of the


referendum then? party support the idea of the


part of the coalition to guarantee party support the idea of the


be given a choice and there would party support the idea of the


a referendum. We believed it was Administration. We increased


investment and education, tackling youth unemployment and transport. We


can achieve reform from within by seeking allies. That is where we


fundamentally disagree with the Conservatives. We're better off


within Europe if we people in work. You refuse to asked


people in work. You refuse to asked people, you refuse to give them a


choice. You are part of the Coalition Government and we believe


you should Coalition Government and we believe


parties have said the same thing but they refuse to do so.


parties have said the same thing but Prime Minister had a cast iron


agreement for the Lisbon Treaty he renege on that. What he is saying


right now is if we are elected in the general election, there will be


a referendum. the general election, there will be


people to have a choice. Just like the referendum you are having. Given


that your party is keen on the referendum you are having. Given


the people of Scotland a referendum on whether to stay or leave the U?


This is not looking much like a on whether to stay or leave the U?


was going to make was one about the NI referendum. It has been said


there was no reference in that to a mechanism for that. Currently, there


is no appetite for a referendum on the EU in Scotland. If I may and so


the question... Just a second. You say there is no appetite, but


actually the most recent opinion polls show only 48% support the US


in Scotland. Not even a majority of people in Scotland support the EU at


this stage. I think we will find the position will greatly differ when


the referendum... If I might finish the sentence, when the referendum


takes place in September and we have the chance to speak only for


Scotland. One of your MPs told the BBC in March that once a deal was


negotiated on Europe as part of an independent Scotland, there might be


an act is certain logic to holding a referendum. Well, the best thing


about independence is we will be allowed to have democracy in


Scotland, at this moment in time we do not have the opportunity to do


so. So once you have negotiated your position in Europe you don't think


there is a sense in offering... You have to pay more to be part in the


club. We should at least have the people of Scotland whether they want


to join under those new terms and conditions. I think once we have the


referendum and we take stock and we have the opportunity to find a speak


for Scotland and to finally backed the Scotland... At the moment, I


would like to have the chance to be taking a seat at the table in the EU


to negotiate for Scotland, because Scotland is losing out currently. In


terms of jobs and investment. We don't participate in the Park -- the


youth employment scheme to assist young people getting into jobs. We


don't take advantage of funds. It is not so long ago that your MEP Alan


Smith said there should indeed be a referendum on Scotland's


relationship with the EU. Now you have flipped and flopped. You are no


longer going to asked about membership because you no longer


trust them. More powers to Brussels is part of the negotiations. You


have to ask people if they agree with that. That is conjecture on


your port -- part, we have not even entered negotiations. These


gentlemen well I hope the batting for Scotland when we enter those


negotiations. David Martin, will you be batting for Scotland's I will be


on Thursday to win the European elections, and we haven't actually


talked about what we going to do if we are elected. My party is clear


that we do not want to use it to campaign for in and out the European


Union. We want to use it to decide on job opportunities for people in


Scotland, how we continue to reform the banking sector, how we tackle


tax evasion and avoidance, free trade deals that benefit the rest of


the world, balanced by environmental and labour 's data was -- labour


issues. Do you not think the public want a say on the future of Scotland


in EE U? Yes, my party is clear on what we would do. The real concerns


of people is jobs, security and the economy. That is why we argue


passionately that staying in Europe is a way to do that. There are


thousands of jobs that are linked to our membership of the European


Union. We are the fastest-growing economy in Europe at the moment,


and... Just one second. Another issue is immigration and I want to


ask about that. Scotland seems less resistant to immigration than other


parts of the UK, but a poll has said they do want fewer migrants in


Scotland. If you look at the figures for the UK, we reckon there are


roughly 2.3 million migrants living in the UK and 2.2 million British


citizens living elsewhere in Europe, so it is almost even. They often


plug skills gaps, they are helping universities by being students. I


actually think they contribute significantly to our economy, so I


am not in favour of tackling immigration the way it has been


described by UKIP. What I would say is the problem with immigration


sometimes is an scrupulous employers abuse migrants to undercut wages and


conditions. That is why some of the resentment comes from. We've said


the minimum fine for an employer abusing migrants would be ?15,000.


We had said there should be some co-labour standards to stop


employers using migrant labour to undercut conditions. So, British


jobs for British workers? No, no, the opposite.


jobs for British workers? No, no, economy but we should make sure


basic social standards are upheld. There are couple of things to


stress. People coming here speculatively to


try to find jobs, People coming here speculatively to


problem. David and I were People coming here speculatively to


Party should have put in transition People coming here speculatively to


given at option again with Bulgaria and remain near and they did not.


But figures show the fear of people coming from these countries is much


greater than the reality. The reality is, transition controls make


a difference and they should have been adopted


a difference and they should have situation. We can argue mistakes


were made in the past. Should there be more or


were made in the past. Should there EU going forward's we do


were made in the past. Should there there is a skills gap in so many


parts of the country. We've got there is a skills gap in so many


make sure migrants are still a vibrant and significant part of


Oracle on me. We need them to fill the jobs that we find are


Oracle on me. We need them to fill done. Surely the logical thing is


that we need more of them. What we don't want is people


the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism is a risk


the hope of finding a job. Benefit British taxpayers.


the hope of finding a job. Benefit across Europe is fundamental to the


the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism, because what we want to


here and work, pay taxes and contribute to our society. How many


here and work, pay taxes and people are coming here to be benefit


here and work, pay taxes and tourists's recent -- benefit


tourists? They are actually a net benefit to


tourists? They are actually a net certainly evidence that this


tourists? They are actually a net problem. We want to send clear


signal you are willing to make a


contribution you are willing to make a


else does. The real challenge is you are willing to make a


reform Europe to make sure we get growth across Europe. So that some


of the countries where these people are coming from grow their own


economies. That will benefit the UK because 50% of our exports are to


the European Union. So reforming the services and the energy market,


these are the big challenges. Do we need more or less immigration to the


EU? This is anti-devolution and anti immigration. We want a welcome and


socially just Scotland, and let -- let's be clear, in terms of


immigration, there is parity. The population declined in Scotland. Do


we need more migrants in Scotland? We need to welcome people to


Scotland, and the rich tapestry that makes up Scotland. You would


remember when the rules were relaxed in terms of where many and and


Bulgarians, there was concern that would be an influx of millions of


people. The figures have gone down by 4000. Let's be clear, Scotland is


a welcoming and inclusive society. We want to be on the world stage


with that in mind. We want to welcome people to come here and work


here. Everybody else has talked about reform. What kind of reform


would you argue for if you were elected? Reform is absolutely


necessary, and we will work with our partners to ensure that happens.


Whether that is in relation... Well, we will be having partners in the


referendum in September. I am asking what happens now if you are elected


on Thursday? The reforms are you pushing for? We want to have parity


in what happens in the European institutions, and winning powers


that they should be locally to benefit the people of Scotland, and


looking at the petition we started of having one seat for the European


Parliament in Brussels. You have no partners in the European Parliament,


and are so is as -- isolated you have to sit with the green group. To


come back to my previous point, but is it that Westminster has


negotiated for Scotland in the EU? We have the worst... You keep


talking about Westminster. We have the worst deal for our farmers in


Scotland than any state in the EU. He indicated he would give up


Scotland's share in the rebate to support farmers. Would you support


that? Weigh when we have independence, the rest of the UK


will also have to negotiate their position. Let's talk about the


Common agricultural policy. The Scotland get a good deal? Pool-mac


Scotland gets a reasonable deal. We will deliver some way around ?4.1


billion to Scotland over the coming years. Currently we have the second


highest payments in Europe. We negotiated to make sure we had all


of the powers in Holyrood. Unfortunately, the minister has been


delaying for months, and we still don't know how the Scottish see a


people work. Northern and Welsh farmers already know. We saw an


increase in development funding. We also negotiated all of this for


Scottish priorities for young entrants, which was our main


priority, and also the priorities to tackle farm subsidies. In all of


these areas, indeed Richard welcomed the deal, when it was introduced.


The UK Government dividing up the money across the UK in a way we are


disadvantage is Scotland because Scotland has a stronger case for


more money than other areas of the UK. You have to remember that we


have a fully devolved system, which is unusual compared to the rest of


Europe. The country has one particular system. We have been able


to recognise Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to create


differences and recognised local needs. That is significant. As


Scotland's needs being met with Mac or Mac I think they are being


addressed in one way or another. What we are seeing is that


priorities for farmers are met, and we don't know whether as the rocket


has delayed despite telling farmers what they can expect. I expect we


will be told after the referendum. Scotland was entitled to 230 million


euros being paid to it, and there was a cross-party agreement that


should come directed to Scotland will stop notwithstanding,


Westminster decided to keep the money for themselves and split


amongst the four regions, when it was Scotland that required the


money. There was a cross-party agreement. The reality is that


Scotland would have had 1 billion extra euros. A full review has been


offered in 2016 with implementation. It is now been


conceded that they would have to negotiate back into Europe to hold


onto what we currently with no opportunity until 2022 negotiate a


battle sediment for Scottish farmers. The real danger is that the


formula used for new member statements fix state make --


statements is to get 20% of the settlement payments across Europe.


Is Scotland disadvantaged by the way the CAP money is being divided? When


I was first elected, I was very critical. We have reformed to this


policy. We are now in a position where payment of farmers is made on


the basis that single farm payment is no longer linked to production.


We don't have the overproduction we used to have in agriculture.


Inevitably, that means some of the subsidies have gone down. The


situation has changed in relation to farming. I thought Britain got a


good deal at the end... The Scotland get a good deal? Scotland is ?1


billion out. Everybody is down. The point is that George was making is


that if we were in into panic country, we would have a nap or


cultural budget slashed if we were part of the European, because that


is the pattern across the whole of the union. Countries have seen that


they are not getting the same share of the agricultural money. More


scaremongering that we hear from the Westminster parties. It is not


matter of fact. It is entire conjecture on your part. It is about


time that Scotland had the opportunity to speak for herself on


an EU state, and come September and a yes vote, we will have that


opportunity. As I said, the formula that has been used for the last ten


countries that have joined the European Union in terms of CAP


funny, if that was the outcome of Scotland's negotiation, that would


be ?300 million going to Scottish farming. That is not a prospect


farmers would be supporting. Very briefly. The big risk is that


farmers will not be subsidised. It is bad for farmers and Scotland.


That is what will happen in that referendum. But we thank you for


being here. Before we go, just a reminder. There


are three other parties on your ballot paper for the European


Election - Britain First, the BNP, and No2EU. Voting takes place on


Thursday the 22nd of May. The result won't be out until the following


Sunday, in line with the rest of Europe. More details about all the


parties and candidates, and the election generally, is on BBC


Scotland news website. That's all from us this week. I'll


be back at the same time next week. Until then, goodbye.


The Sunday before we go to the polls in local and European elections, Andrew Neil talks to the culture secretary Sajid Javid, Liberal Democrat Simon Hughes and Labour's Hilary Benn.

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