Browse content similar to 25/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Senior Liberal Democrats say the public has lost trust in Nick Clegg. | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
They call for him to go after Thursday's local election meltdown | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
and before a likely Euro vote catastrophe tonight. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
That is our top story. Labour and Tories struggle to cope | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
with the UKIP insurgency as Nigel Farage toasts his party's success | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
and declares the UKIP fox is in the Westminster henhouse. | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
And we all have to eat, but should politicians wait until the cameras | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
are switched off? Coming up on Sunday Politics | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
Scotland. After the fire in the landmark Mackintosh Building at | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
Glasgow School of Art, we'll speak live to the Culture Secretary Fiona | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
Hyslop. hour. | :01:21. | :01:31. | |
Cooped up in the Sunday Politics henhouse, our own boot should -- | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
bunch of headless chickens. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh. The | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
Liberal Democrats lost over 300 councillors on Thursday, on top of | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
the losses in previous years, the local government base has been | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
whittled away in many parts of the country. Members of the European | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
Parliament will face a similar comment when the results are | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
announced tonight. A small but growing chorus of Liberal Democrats | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
have called on Nick Clegg to go. This is what the candidate in West | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
Dorset had to say. People know that locally we worked | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
incredibly hard on their councils and as their MPs, but Nick Clegg is | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
perceived to have not been trustworthy in leadership. Do you | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
trust him? He has lacked bone on significant issues that are the core | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
values of our party. This is how the party president | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
responded. At this time, it would be foolish | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
for us as a party to turn in on ourselves. What has separated us | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
from the Conservatives is, while they have been like cats in a sack, | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
we have stood united, and that is what we will continue to do. The | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
major reason why is because we consented to the coalition, unlike | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
the Conservatives. We had a vote, and a full conference. | :03:05. | :03:14. | |
Is there a growing question over Nick Clegg's leadership? Different | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
people have different views. My own view is I need to consult my own | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
activists and members before coming to a conclusion. I am looking at | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
holding a meeting for us to discuss the issue. I have been told by some | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
people they do not think a meeting is required, they think he should | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
stay, and other people have decided he should go. As a responsible | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
Democrat, I should consult the members here before coming to my | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
conclusions. What is your view at the moment? I have got to listen to | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
my members. But you must have some kind of you. Because I have an open | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
mind, I do not think he must stay, I am willing to say I have not made my | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
mind up. From a news point of view, that is my official position. I can | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
assure you there is not much news in that! I said earlier I am not going | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
to say he must go must stay, I am consulting my members. But you must | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
have some kind of view of your own before you have listened to your | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
members. There are people who are wrongfully sanctioned and end up | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
using food banks, I am upset about that, because we should not | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
allow... I do not mind having a sanctioning system, that I get | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
constituents who are put in this position, we should not accept that. | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
I rebel on the issue of a referendum on membership of the EU. I am also | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
concerned about the way the rules have been changed in terms of how | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
parents are treated in their ability to take children to funerals out of | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
school time. There are questions about the leader's responsible T for | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
those policies. Nick Clegg has made it clear he is a staunch | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
pro-European, he wants the Liberal Democrats to be in, he does not want | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
a referendum, if you lose a chunk of your MEPs tonight, what does that | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
say about how in June you are with written public opinion? There are | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
issues with how you publish your policies. I do not agree 100% with | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
what the government is doing or with what Nick Clegg says. I do think we | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
should stay within the EU, because the alternative means we have less | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
control over our borders. There is a presentational issue, because what | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
UKIP want, to leave the EU, is worse in terms of control of borders, | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
which is their main reason for wanting to leave, which is strange. | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
There are debate issues, but I have got personal concerns, I do worry | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
about the impact on my constituents when they face wrongful sanctions. | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
You have said that. A fellow Liberal Democrat MP has compared Nick Clegg | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
to a general at the Somme, causing carnage amongst the troops. I am | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
more interested in the policy issues, are we doing the right | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
things? I do think the coalition was essential, we had to rescue the | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
country from financial problems. My own view on the issue of student | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
finance, we did the right thing, in accordance with the pledge, which | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
was to get a better system, more students are going to university, | :06:40. | :06:41. | |
and more from disadvantaged backgrounds. But there are issues. | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
But Nick Clegg survive as leader through till the next election? It | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
depends what odds you will give me! If you are not going to give me is, | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
I am not going to get! If you listen to John hemming, he has got nothing | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
to worry about. He does have something to worry about, they lost | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
300 seats, on the uniform swing, you would see people like Vince cable | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
and Simon Hughes lose their seats. But nobody wants to be the one to | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
we'll be nice, they would rather wait until after the next election, | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
and then rebuild the party. Yes, there is no chance of him walking | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
away. Somebody like Tim Farron or Vince Cable, whoever the successor | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
is, though have to close the dagger ten months before an election, do | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
they want that spectacle? If I were Nick Clegg, I would walk away, it is | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
reasonably obvious that the left-wing voters who defect had | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
towards the Labour Party in 2010 will not return while he is leader. | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
And anything he was going to achieve historically, the already has done. | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
Unlike David Miliband, sorry, Ed Miliband or David Cameron, he has | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
transformed the identity of the party, they are in government. Had | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
it not been for him, they would have continued to be the main protest | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
party, rather than a party of government. So he has got to take it | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
all the way through until the election. If he left now, he would | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
look like he was a tenant in the conservative house. What we are | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
seeing is an operation to destabilise Nick Clegg, but it is a | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Liberal Democrat one, so it is chaotic. There are people who have | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
never really been reconciled to the coalition and to Nick Clegg, they | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
are pushing for this. What is Nick Clegg going to do, and Tim Farron? | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
-- what is Vince Cable going to do? Vince Cable is in China, on a | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
business trip. It is like John Major's toothache in 1990. What is | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
Tim Farron doing? He is behind Nick Clegg, because he knows that his | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
best chances of being leader are as the Westland candidate, the person | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
who picks up the mess in a year. Vince Cable's only opportunity is on | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
this side of the election. But you say they are not a party of | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
government, but what looks more likely is overall the -- is no | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
overall control. You might find a common mission looking appealing. | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
They could still hold the balance of power. A lot of people in the Labour | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
Party might say, let's just have a minority government. 30 odds and | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
sods who will not turn up to vote. If they want to be up until 3am | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
every morning, be like that! When you were in short trousers, it was | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
like that every night, it was great fun! The Liberal Democrats will not | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
provide confidence to a minority government, they will pull the plug | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
and behave ruthlessly. Does Nick leg lead the Liberal Democrats into the | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
next election? Yes. Yes. Yes. I am sorry, Nick Clegg, you are | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
finished! We will speak to Paddy Ashdown in the second part of the | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
show to speak about the Liberal Democrats. The UKIP insurgency could | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
not deliver the promised earthquake, but it produced enough shock waves | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
to discombobulated the established parties. They are struggling to work | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
out how to deal with them. We watched it all unfold. | :10:41. | :10:49. | |
Behind the scenes of any election night is intensely busy. Those in | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
charge of party strategy and logistics want their people focused, | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
working with purpose and rehearsed to make sure their spin on the | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
results is what viewers remember and take on board. A bit of a buzz of | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
activity inside the BBC's studio, kept and primed for the results. | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
What this does not show due is the exterior doubles up for hospital | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
dramas like Holby City, there are doorways that are mock-ups of | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
accident and emergency, but the electorate will discover which of | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
the parties they have put into intensive care, which ones are | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
coming out of recovery and which ones are in rude health. We joined | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
David Dimbleby. Good evening, welcome to the BBC's new election | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
centre. When three big beasts become for on the political field, things | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
have changed. Eric Pickles says we will be seen off next year, we will | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
see you at Westminster! This party is going to break through next year, | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
and you never know, we might even hold the balance of power. Old | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
messages that gave voters in excuses to go elsewhere on the ballot paper | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
exposed the older players to questions from within their ranks. | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
In the hen house of the House of Commons, the fox that wants to get | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
in has ruffled feathers. The reason they have had amazing success, a | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
rapid rise, partly what Chuka Umunna says about being a repository, but | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
they have also managed to sound like human beings, and that his Nigel | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
Farage's eight victory. For some conservatives, a pact was the best | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
form of defence. It would be preferable if all members of UKIP | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
and voters became Tories overnight. That seems to be an ambitious | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
proposition. Therefore, we need to do something that welcomes them on | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
board in a slightly different way. Labour had successes, but nobody but | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
they're wizards of Spain was completely buying a big success | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
story. Gaffes behind the scenes and strategic errors were levelled at | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
those who have managed the campaign. They have played a clever game, you | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
shuffle bedecked around, and if UKIP does quite well but not well enough, | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
that helps Labour get in. That kind of mindset will not win the general | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
election, and we saw that in the tap ticks and strategy, and that is why, | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
on our leaflets for the European elections, we chose deliberately not | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
to attack UKIP, that was a bad error. Not so, so somebody who has | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
been in that spotlight. If you look at the electoral maths, UKIP will | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
still be aiming at the Tories in a general election. They are the | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
second party in Rotherham, Labour will always hold what the room, it | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
is safe, there is no point being second in a safe seat. UKIP have | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
taken Castle Point, a Tory seat they will target. The question for the | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
next election, can they make a challenge? The Tories will be under | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
the gun from UKIP. The substance of these results is UKIP not in | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
government, they do not have any MPs, they do not run a single | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
Council, at dismissing them ceased to be an option. The question is, | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
who will they heard most and how do you smoke the keeper's threat? | :14:19. | :14:34. | |
Joining me now, day about and Patrick O'Flynn. Do you agree not | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
enough was done for the elections? No, we have very good results around | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
Hammersmith and Fulham, Croydon, Redbridge, and we picked off council | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
wards in Haringey meaning that Lynne Featherstone and Simon Hughes worked | :14:55. | :15:03. | |
on. The Ashcroft polling shows that in key marginals, we are well ahead | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
and on course to win in 2015. I will be putting Mr Ashcroft's poll to | :15:09. | :15:17. | |
Eric Pickles shortly. On the basis of the local elections your national | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
share of the vote would be just 31%, only two points ahead of the Tories, | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
only two points ahead of Gordon Brown's disastrous performance in | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
2010. Why so low? National share is one thing but I am talking about | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
what we are doing in the key marginals. Clearly some were taken | :15:38. | :15:47. | |
away from others like Rotherham but we have got many voters back. You | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
are only two points better than you were in 2010 and use of your worst | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
defeat in living memory. That is the totality. What matters | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
is seat by seat, that is what the Republicans found in the | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
presidential elections. Patrick O'Flynn, you performed well in the | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
local election but it wasn't an earthquake. It is definitely true | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
that Labour did well in London but that is a double-edged sword because | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
you have an increasing disconnect between the metropolis and the rest | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
of the country. Our vote share was somewhat depressed not just because | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
London is one of our weakest part of the country but because most of the | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
warts in London were 3-member wards and we were typically only putting | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
up one candidate. Even when they fared well, it still tracked down | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
the projected national share. I think we did well, and what was | :16:46. | :16:54. | |
particularly good was getting the target seat list becoming clear | :16:55. | :17:07. | |
before our eyes. Suzanne Evans said that basically smart folk don't vote | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
for UKIP. I think that is a tiny fragment of what she said. She said | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
London is its own entity and is increasingly different from the rest | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
of the country. One of the things that is different from London as | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
opposed to Rotherham is that we have very big parties. I have a few | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
thousand people in mind, Rotherham has a few hundred. People don't go | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
and knock on doors and talk to people, in London we have always had | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
to do that. London is full of young voters, full of ethnically diverse | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
voters, that is why you are not doing well, you don't appeal to live | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
there. I think London in general has a very different attitude to mass | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
uncontrolled immigration. Londoners know that if an immigrant moves in | :17:59. | :18:09. | |
next door to you, to use Nigel Farage's phrase, the world doesn't | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
end tomorrow. People in the big cities know that, that is the point. | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
What Diane Abbott is doing is try to convince London of its moral | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
superiority so I am delighted... It is a simple fact that immigrants do | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
not end the world if they move in next door. The economic recovery is | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
getting more robust by the month, you have a seriously to ship problem | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
according to many people on your own site. Maybe you're 31% of the vote | :18:42. | :18:50. | |
is as good as it gets. Those who go round bitching about Ed Miliband | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
have been doing that before the result. We have all polled very | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
well. Ed Miliband does not polled very well. He has actually fashioned | :19:05. | :19:15. | |
some really effective policies. Unemployment is tumbling, inflation | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
is falling, growth is strengthening, and you have a leader who claims | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
there is a cost of living crisis and he doesn't have a clue about his own | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
cost of living. I think that was poor staff work. That he doesn't | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
know what goes in his own shopping basket? I think his own staff could | :19:37. | :19:48. | |
have prepared him for that. My point is that the numbers are looking | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
better, we know that, but people don't feel better off. Then why are | :19:53. | :20:03. | |
all consumer index polls better? They are feeling confident. They may | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
be saying that, but people are worried about their future, their | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
children's future. That is not what you buy today or tomorrow. If you | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
ask people about their future and their children's future and | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
prospects, they feel frightened. What will be a good result for you | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
in the general election? We need to see Nigel Farage elected as an MP | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
and he mustn't go there on his own. How many people do you think will be | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
with him? Who knows, but we will have 20 to 30 target seat and if you | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
put together the clusters we got in last year's County elections with | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
the one we got this year, you can have a good guess at where they | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
are. A number of people who voted for you and Thursday say they are | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
going to back to the three main parties in general election. It | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
would be foolish of me to say that they are going to stay. Some have | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
said they have just lent their votes but voters hate being taken for | :21:10. | :21:18. | |
granted. It is up to us to broaden our agenda, and build on our | :21:19. | :21:26. | |
strengths, work on our weaknesses. Ed Miliband may have to do a deal | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
with him. We have been here before, but the UKIP bubble is going to | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
burst and that may happen around the time of Newark. Are you going to win | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
Newark now? We are going to give it a really good crack. We love being | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
the underdog, we don't see it as being the big goal -- the be all and | :21:49. | :21:57. | |
end all. If you're going to get a big bounce off the elections, not to | :21:58. | :22:06. | |
go and win your shows people who govern in Parliament, they don't | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
vote for you. It is Labour who have given up the campaign already so we | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
need a really big swing in our favour and we will give it a great | :22:17. | :22:24. | |
crack. The bubble will burst at the Newark by-election, trust me. Have | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
you been to Newark? Newark will see from local people... Where is it? It | :22:32. | :22:40. | |
is outside the M25, I can tell you that. My point is that we are set | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
for victory in 2015. I want to run this clip and get your take on it, | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
an interview that Nigel Farage did with LBC. What they do is they have | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
an auditor to make sure they spend their money in accordance with their | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
rules. You say that is if there is something wrong with it. Hang on, | :23:01. | :23:11. | |
hang on. This is Patrick O'Flynn, is this a friend in the media or a | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
member of the political class? Do you regret doing that now? What were | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
you doing? No, I was trying to get Nigel Farage to a more important | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
interview with Sunday Times that had painstakingly organised. He was on | :23:31. | :23:40. | |
there? I have told the LBC people next door that he was running over. | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
So you interrupted a live interview and you don't regret that? No, | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
because just between us I wasn't a massive enthusiast for that | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
interview taking place at all. I know what James O'Brien is like and | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
I knew it wouldn't be particularly edifying. But your boss wasn't happy | :24:01. | :24:11. | |
with the intervention. Sometimes the boss gets shirty. We all upset our | :24:12. | :24:20. | |
boss every now and again, but anyway you could be an MEP by this time | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
tomorrow and you won't have to do this job any more. You can then just | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
count your salary and your expenses. I will make the contribution my | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
party leader asked me to, to restore Britain to being a self-governing | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
country. Are you going to stay in the job or not? I would not be able | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
country. Are you going to stay in to do the job in the same way but I | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
would maybe have some kind of overview. We will leave it there. | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
Yesterday Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy chairman, produced a mammoth | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
opinion poll of more than 26,000 voters in 26 marginal | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
constituencies, crucial seat that will decide the outcome of the | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
general election next year. In 26 constituencies people were asked | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
which party's candidate they would support, and Labour took a healthy | :25:14. | :25:27. | |
12 point lead, implying a swing of 6.5% from Conservatives to Labour | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
from the last general election. That implies Labour would topple 83 Tory | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
MPs. The poll also shows UKIP in second place in four seats, and | :25:40. | :25:51. | |
three of them are Labour seats. Michael Ashcroft says a quarter of | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
those who say they would vote UKIP supported the Tories at the last | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
election. As many as have switched from Labour and the Lib Dems | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
combined. The communities Secretary Eric | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
Pickles joins me now. The Ashcroft Paul that gives Labour a massive 12 | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
point lead in the crucial marginal constituencies, you would lose 83 | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
MPs if this was repeated in an election. It doesn't get worse than | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
that, does it? Yesterday I went through that Paul in great detail, | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
and what it shows is that in a number of key seats we are ahead, | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
and somewhere behind, and I think is Michael rightly shows... You are | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
behind in most of them. This is a snapshot and we have a year in which | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
the economy is going to be improving, and we have a year to say | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
to those candidates that are fighting those key seats, look, just | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
around the corner people are ahead in the same kind of seat as you and | :26:56. | :27:05. | |
we need to redouble our efforts. The Tory brand is dying in major parts | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
of the country, you are the walking dead in Scotland, and now London, | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
huge chunks of London are becoming a no-go zone for you. That's not true | :27:13. | :27:22. | |
with regard to the northern seats. Tell me what seats you have? In | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
terms of councillors we are the largest party in local government. | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
After four years in power... You are smiling but no political party has | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
ever done that. You haven't got a single councillor in the great city | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
of Manchester. We have councillors in Bradford and Leeds, we have | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
more... You haven't got an MP in any of the big cities? We have more | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
councillors in the north of England than Labour. A quarter of those who | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
say they would vote UKIP and did vote UKIP supported the Tories at | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
the last election. Why are so many of your 2010 voters now so | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
disillusioned? Any election will bring a degree of churning, and we | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
hope to get as many back as we can, but we also want to get Liberal | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
Democrats, people who voted for the Lib Dems and the Labour Party. If we | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
concentrate on one part of the electorate, then we won't take power | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
and I believe we will because I believe we represent a wide spectrum | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
of opinion in this country and I believe that delivering a long-term | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
economic plan, delivering prosperity into people 's pockets will be felt. | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
On the basis of the local election results, you would not pick up a | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
single Labour seat in the general election. You make the point that it | :28:48. | :28:57. | |
is about local elections. Seats that Labour should have taken from us | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
they didn't, which is important... I am asking what possible Labour seat | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
you would hope to win after the results on Thursday. Local elections | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
are local elections. The national election will have a much bigger | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
turnout, it will be one year from now, we will be able to demonstrate | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
to the population that the trends we are seeing already in terms of the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
success of our long-term economic plan, they will be feeling that in | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
their pockets. People need to feel secure about their jobs and feel | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
that their children have a future. Maybe so many of your people are | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
defecting to UKIP because on issues that they really care about like | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
mass immigration, you don't keep your promises. | :29:46. | :29:56. | |
We have reduced immigration and the amount of pull factors. Let me give | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
you the figures. You have said a couple of things are not true. You | :30:01. | :30:08. | |
promised to cut net immigration to under 100,000 by 2015, last year it | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
rose by 50,000, 212,000. You have broken your promise. We still intend | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
to reduce the amount from non-EU countries. I want to be clear, I | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
have no problem with people coming here who want to work and pay their | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
national insurance and tax, to help fund the health service. What I have | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
objection to our people coming here to get the additional benefits. You | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
made the promise. It is our intention to deliver it. People | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
defect to UKIP because mainstream politicians to -- like yourself do | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
not give straight answers. Can you be straight, you will not hit your | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
immigration target by the election, correct? We will announce measures | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
that. People factor. Will you hit your target? It is a year from now, | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
it is our intention to move towards the target. Is it your intention, do | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
you say you will hit your target of under 100,000 net migration by the | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
election? We will do our damnedest. But you will not make it. I do not | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
know that to be fact. They also vote UKIP cos they do not trust you and | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
Europe, David Cameron has promised a referendum, he has vowed to resign | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
if he does not deliver one, but still your voters vote for UKIP. | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
There were reasons why people voted for UKIP. A great deal of anger | :31:46. | :31:54. | |
about the political system, about the Metropolitan elite that they see | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
running programmes like this and the political programmes. We | :31:57. | :32:21. | |
I don't know what our position will be tonight. If you do come third, it | :32:22. | :32:31. | |
will be because they don't trust you? Next year, there will be a | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
general election about money in people's pockets and who will run | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
the country. Your colleague on the backbenches, David Davies, wants to | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
get the voters to trust you on the referendum. He is a very clever guy, | :32:49. | :32:56. | |
but in terms of negotiating a better deal to give the population a better | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
choice, you require two years to be able to do that. You are an Essex | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
MP, it must be really depressing that Essex man and Essex women is | :33:10. | :33:18. | |
now UKIP? I don't have any UKIP in my constituency. The usual high | :33:19. | :33:28. | |
Essex... The Tory party does not resonate with Essex man in the way | :33:29. | :33:38. | |
that it did under Thatcher. We need to connect, that is for sure. Voters | :33:39. | :33:47. | |
want to know about their children's future, will they get a good | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
education? When it comes to collecting and national government, | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
Essex man does not want to see Ed Miliband in office. In terms of what | :34:00. | :34:08. | |
government you get, do you want to see David Cameron or Ed Miliband as | :34:09. | :34:20. | |
Prime Minister? Last general election, you did not get Essex man | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
vote in this same quantities as under Margaret Thatcher or a and | :34:27. | :34:46. | |
major. As you said at the beginning, it is where you deliver those votes. | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
We have our campaign where we are looking at key marginals. We know | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
where we are not doing as well as we should. Does he do these polls to be | :35:00. | :35:13. | |
helpful? He is a good conservative and the publication was one of the | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
best things that happened to our party. You are down to 22% of the | :35:18. | :35:28. | |
vote. If you had a pact with UKIP, you could do much better. I am a | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
Democrat. I believe you should put your policies out there and people | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
can decide how they want to vote. Would you stop a local pact? There | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
will be no pact with UKIP. None. Thank you. | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
You are watching the sandy politics. We say goodbye to viewers in | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
Scotland. Good morning and welcome to Sunday | :35:58. | :36:10. | |
Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme. Flames from the landmark | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
Mackintosh building at Glasgow School of Art on Friday. We'll speak | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
to the Culture Secretary live. This former nurse worked in the NHS, | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
but as a patient she struggled to get her complaint addressed. We'll | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
look at what can be done to ease the process. | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
And I'm on the mound in Edinburgh where the General Assembly of the | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
Church of Scotland has been meeting. Commissioners have been arguing for | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
and against independence. What role for the kirk in a different kind of | :36:36. | :36:45. | |
constitutional set-up? Good morning. Curators at the Glasgow School of | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
Art will be assessing what can be saved over the next few days after | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
the fire at the building on Friday. Last night, it emerged the library, | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
which was designed by Charles Rennie Macintosh, has been destroyed in the | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
blaze. Firefighters say they'll be scaling back their operation and | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
teams will now investigate the cause of the fire. Both the UK and | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
Scottish governments have said they will contribute to the restoration | :37:06. | :37:07. | |
of the Mackintosh Building. Joining me now is the Culture Secretary, | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
Fiona Hyslop, and Neil Baxter from the Royal Incorporation of | :37:12. | :37:12. | |
Architects in Scotland. What is your understanding of the | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
scale of the damage? I was the yesterday. It is quite remarkable | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
what they did standing as a firewall on the stairwell, protecting the | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
east end of the building. Their assessment that 90% of the building | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
and 70% of the content is safe is remarkable. We walk a lot to them. | :37:35. | :37:44. | |
The loss of the library is tragic. But McIntosh worked in precious | :37:45. | :37:56. | |
ideas as well as materials. And we know that we can work with other | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
agencies to ensure we can use state of the art documentation and start | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
the process of recovery and restoration. There is hope for the | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
future. A big loss, but we have to recover. | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
What did firefighters say to you about the potential cause? That is | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
what the investigation has two assays. There is no if statement on | :38:22. | :38:35. | |
that yet. -- must assess. The firefighters were on site within | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
four minutes. They have often been in the building. I cannot emphasise | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
enough that we or the saving of this building to our firefighters. | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
Glasgow School of Art seeing it is tragically ironic that a new fire | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
suppression system was due to be fitted under the dash over the | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
summer. In terms of what you can do with a listed building, you have to | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
be very careful. Sprinklers can also cause damage. It is very sad that | :39:08. | :39:16. | |
system was not in place. Tell us about the Scottish Government's | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
involvement. How much money will you have two hand over? In terms of | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
immediate response, we were on site immediately. The immediate | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
conservation is very important, capturing what is there. The Royal | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
commission of ancient monuments, their experts in photography and | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
fair and work is taking place on that. Textiles are being removed, | :39:47. | :40:01. | |
with the help of conservators. All that needs to be done will be done. | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
But we will have to work in partnership, under the leadership of | :40:05. | :40:17. | |
the Glasgow School of Art. They have worked very hard and will continue | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
to work hard. The building is important, but the students work is | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
also very important. Continuity of support for them is very important. | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
The Education Secretary has been in touch to make sure we can continue | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
that support for students. Do you welcome the statement from the | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
Westminster government that they stand ready to make a financial | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
contribution? Of course, and we have been in touch to find out what they | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
can provide. International interest has been phenomenal as well. We have | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
to look at the covering both of the building but also to help support | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
the students and staff. But the outpouring of response shows how | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
precious this building is. It's not just the building itself, but what | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
it does for the life, building and heritage of Scotland. Tell us about | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
how important this building is. It is unique, but that does not make | :41:14. | :41:22. | |
it great. It's not simply good, it is a building of the first | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
international importance. It has been described as one of the first | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
truly modern buildings in the world. Its influence in terms of the | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
architects that it has nurtured, and who have come from all over the | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
world, creators and artists. This is about a place that is more than its | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
architecture. Charles Rennie Mackintosh created something that | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
was an all embracing work of art, every element. It is an | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
extraordinarily comprehensive and complete police. What was his vision | :41:57. | :42:06. | |
when he set out to mark the building was built in two faces so you see a | :42:07. | :42:15. | |
transition in McIntosh as well. The first phase is looking a bit | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
backwards, to the arts and crafts movement of the time. By the time we | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
get into the second phase, and the library was the epitome of that | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
second phase, he is very much at the top of his game. He is a truly | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
great, international architect. He has travelled, he has been involved | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
in the European architectural movement of his time and he is | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
synthesising a whole number of ideas. This was a time of great firm | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
and internationally of architectural ideas and innovation and he brings | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
that together. You have a technical and artistic tour de force. And the | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
materials that he used, that is going to be very important when it | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
comes to designing. He used the materials that were available. It | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
should be emphasised that the skills in Glasgow at that time were | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
extraordinary. Glasgow have this tremendously strong tradition of | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
shipbuilding and a lot of that is brought in and used in this | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
building. It uses some of the contemporary Glasgow-based | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
technology of working with metal. A lot of the struck, the reason why | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
the building has stood solid is it is very solidly built. While we saw | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
the destruction of a lot of internal timbers, and thank heavens that 70% | :43:51. | :44:02. | |
of the internal fabric is intact, quite remarkable given the pictures. | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
On Friday, people are standing crying in the street because we all | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
felt that they were watching the death of something that was | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
incredibly dear to us. The fact is, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
we must now do everything we can to help and participate in the | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
resurrection of the building. Because it has been so meticulously | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
studied, there are superb measured studies of every aspect and the | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
library, perhaps, more than any other part. The information is | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
there. The archaeological work that is no ongoing and the meticulous | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
working through of the deeply will all contribute to the remaking. | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
Hopefully, there will be elements that can be used again in that | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
process. Is possible to put a time frame on this? We will leave that to | :45:01. | :45:08. | |
the experts. What happens in the immediate aftermath in terms of | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
documenting what is there, as well as the records we have, I should | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
also point out that the recent conservation work carried out by | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
Historic Scotland has met that the archive was protected because it had | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
been recently moved to a new state of the art archive so a lot of the | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
records that people thought had been lost were in a conservation archive. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
So that is something to be thankful for. But it is about going forward. | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
In terms of expertise, we have offers of support from all over the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
world. In terms of the expertise we have, Glasgow School of Art and | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
Historic Scotland are experts in digital documentation and are using | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
those skills to see the rebirth and BB King of the building. -- | :45:59. | :46:08. | |
remaking. NHS professionals are missing | :46:09. | :46:10. | |
opportunities to improve patient care due to poor handling of | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
complaints according to Scotland's public services ombudsman. In a | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
strongly worded report, Jim Martin says some NHS boards fail to learn | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
from their mistakes after complaints are made, leading to unnecessary | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
distress for patients. The report comes as figures released to this | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
programme show the number of compensation claims made against | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
boards have increased by a quarter over the last five years. Megan | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
Paterson reports. Dorothy is a retired nurse with more | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
than 20 years service in the NHS. As a nurse, she was proud of the care | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
she provided. As a patient, she was disappointed with the handling of | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
concerns about her treatment. Very frustrated. Nobody was listening. I | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
thought, somebody has got to listen. I was sure that I was imagining that | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
people could be so bad and it wasn't taken on board. I worked in | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
psychiatry, and I was frightened that they were going to say there | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
was something wrong with my rain. It is complaints like this that is | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
causing concern. In his report, Jim Martin has said that complaints and | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
delays in dealing with complaints can lead to stress for patients and | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
their families. It seems fair litigation is a problem. For many | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
health care professionals, the major fear is the consequence of admitting | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
to a problem is that they will be sued. Even if they turn out not to | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
have been negligent, it can put a huge strain on their profession. | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
There is still a residual sense in which some people believe that they | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
will be litigated against if they admit to something having gone | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
wrong. That puts a barrier between openness and frankness and the | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
apology that people are looking for. In fact, few complaints lead to | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
financial compensation. Over the last five financial years, health | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
boards have spent ?42.4 million in compensation, less than 1% of the | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
overall health budget. The number of compensation claims has risen by | :48:24. | :48:35. | |
26%, with 560 made in total. The financial compensation is not what | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
they are looking for. They are looking for an apology, a sense that | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
the health service act sets its responsibility and hopefully learns | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
from whatever goes wrong. The money is there to make sure that people | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
can survive in a comfortable way. In a statement, the Health Secretary | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
Alex Neil said the government was committed to developing a culture of | :48:59. | :49:09. | |
openness in the NHS. The V on planes are handled really is widely across | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
the country. I think it does take time. The NHS is a large and | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
bureaucratic organisation. Sometimes you will find that in particular | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
areas, they can be EV sieve. People are pleased to see work in the area, | :49:26. | :49:35. | |
but do not think of sharing. Staff and patients are becoming more | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
willing to share their views on websites and forums. Complaints have | :49:40. | :49:48. | |
to be handled at board level. It is at that level where decisions are | :49:49. | :49:57. | |
taken about how to handle complaints. Some health boards | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
handle complaints brilliantly, but most don't. They need to change | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
their attitudes towards complaints and use them as learning | :50:08. | :50:16. | |
opportunities. Dorothy hopes for forming -- hopes her former employer | :50:17. | :50:28. | |
does not miss those opportunities. We have to acknowledge that when | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
things go wrong for patients it can be catastrophic? Yes, if something | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
goes wrong, they make a complaint, it is not handled well and | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
emphasises the problem that they face. We have to recognise that and | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
welcome the report. It is helpful in driving forward an agenda of | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
improvement, and continuing, in the health service. | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
There has been a rise in the complaints and compensation paid | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
out, Richard Simpson, is that of a concern to you? We have a new system | :50:59. | :51:07. | |
with the Patients' Right Act. It is addressing the system in a different | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
way by having four levels. There is a system to allow compliments and to | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
identify good practise as well as complaints. Below that there is | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
comments where there is something minor going on, one of concerns, and | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
only finally complaints. What is disappointing is that the ombudsman | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
report in April had a large number of complaints not upheld. That | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
indicates that the boards are not handling the process as well as they | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
should be. That is because they need to actually see the patients as | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
partners in co production, so that the patients can spot what is | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
happening that is not good and that can be addressed. There are some | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
boards doing that. That is the difficulty. That has | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
been highlighted in a report that the kind of response you get from a | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
health board depends on the area you live in? That is true. There is no | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
point denying it. The report identified a number of strengths in | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
a number of areas but then went on to say that must be rolled out | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
across the country. That show it is is not an even service we are | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
getting. But we have done many things, the Scottish Government | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
introducing the Patients' Right Act. And the patient opinion website, | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
that is Welsh Assembly to provide people with an opportunity to | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
provide feedback and also with the support and the advice service | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
through Citizens' Advice Scotland. So a lot of point of contact for | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
feedback. But the difficulty is that if there is not the direct | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
information about what is going on, where, and why, when we get that | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
information they can react and hopefully properly. | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
The point being made though is that many people want acknowledgement of | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
something going wrong and an apology. They are not always looking | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
for litigation but because of the fear of being sued health boards | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
maybe don't offer that apology as quickly as they should? You are | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
right. People want a nod and an apology. They also want to see | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
change as a result of their complaint. So that it is better for | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
the next patient. One final part of the jigsaw we have been discussing | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
since 2006, that is no fault compensation. Sheila McLean has done | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
the report to the Government. The Government have consulted on it, the | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
results have been published. The Government must get on quickly with | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
introducing a no fault compensation system. I hope that happens even | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
before the end of the Parliament. That removes the fear of litigation. | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
That is the point you were making. Once you get rid of the fear you | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
begin to change the culture as the health professional staff and | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
management are able to respond positively. | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
The point that Pennie Taylor was making that those on the front line, | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
the medics, they would like to offer the apology and move on but it is | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
perhaps higher up the tree, the managers stopping that happening. Is | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
that a fair point? I think it was a fair point. I have an experience of | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
making a complaint, many years ago, I have to say. The first point of | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
contact was whether or not a lawyer was needed. But it was not so. We | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
were looking for it to be better for the next patient. Things have moved | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
on but not as quickly as it should have. Work must be done. There must | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
be a stepping back, allowing the individuals, the doctors, the | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
nurses, to make that apology, to make it right and for the local ward | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
managers and managers to get the chance to correct the system | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
locally. That would be welcome. But I agree we have to make progress on | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
making sure that litigation is not the first thing that people think | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
about. When the Health Secretary talks | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
about a culture of openness, how do you foster that feeling? I think it | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
must come from the top. A problem in Parliament is that when something | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
goes wrong, for example Lothian and the waiting times, the opposition | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
attack, the Government responds by holding an inquiry, then people feel | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
they are being blamed for things going wrong. It must go from the top | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
to senior management, to not operate on a blame culture. To welcome the | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
things being said by their staff. I am get getting correspondence from | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
staff, even though there is a whistleblower line, I am getting | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
complaints from staff saying that they will have to go public. There | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
must be a change in the culture, it has to be from the top. | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
And on the part of politicians too? Less finger pointing and less | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
blaming from the politicians? I try to tweet to praise my health boards. | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
Fife has introduced a system where the board gets a report on the | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
complaint system, every board. Then an approach to where they are doing | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
good practise and where there are concerns and they are put together, | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
and then they can change things. I would praise that. We have to be | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
positive where it is going well as well as negative when it is not | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
going well. We are making progress but perhaps not quickly enough. One | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
problems, I personally experienced in the '90s is not knowing where to | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
go, how to go to it and what the process was. There are now lots of | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
opportunities through the website, through Citizens' Advice Scotland | :56:52. | :56:53. | |
and others. I think that the fact that there are | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
now more opportunities to provide that feedback weather positive or | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
negative is partly responsible for the increase in the number of | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
complaints. But that is not a bad thing. If we are getting information | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
about mistakes being made, that is how to correct them. If the local | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
and senior managers don't know about it they cannot do anything about it. | :57:14. | :57:21. | |
I'm sure that Richard wishes we could do it quicker, as do I. | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
I wonder if the problem is not just confined to health boards. There are | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
lots of organisations that are bureaucratic and have similar | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
problems? And as we merge health and social care there are different | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
complaint systems. Another part of the jigsaw Labour would like to see | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
in place, we will percent vi with, we need an independent monitoring | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
system. We have health improvements, a report has done on this but we | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
need to do this without construction, to be able to go in, | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
to say what is happening here. To look at it. So we feel that should | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
apply to everything, not just the elderly, which we have been | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
inspection system on, and the environment and the health systems | :58:12. | :58:18. | |
but this must be beefed up, HIS, to be able to go in there and help on | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
this one. Is that something to support? I will | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
not redesign the entire Scottish complaints system across the | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
Scottish system on the programme, good though it is, the programme but | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
we need to consider much of what has been discussed. There are good | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
suggestion, the merger of Social Services and social health is | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
important. We have to get it right. If the complaints sector is shuffled | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
to ensure it is a lined properly, that will be done but the basic | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
problem is that we are doing good work but it is not across the whole | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
country. We recognise that, we welcome the report. We will be | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
pushing forward to ensure that people can get access to the | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
complaints system and hopefully get a proper response when they | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
complain. Thank you very much. This is Sunday politics, Scotland, | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
let's cross for the news with Andrew acre. | :59:18. | :59:26. | |
Good afternoon. Staff at the Glasgow School of Art will be assessing what | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
can be saved over the next few days after the fire at the building. | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
Attention is now also turning to the funding requirements for | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
restoration. The UK government has said it will give "millions" of | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
pounds if necessary and speaking on this programme the Culture Secretary | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
Fiona Hyslop said the Scottish Government would make sure that "all | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
that needs to be done will be done". The Danish Foreign Minister has told | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
the BBC that an independent Scotland would have to "deliver on certain | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
criteria" to join the European Union. Speaking to BBC Radio Four's | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
the "World this Weekend", Martin Lidegaard spoke about the Copehagen | :59:59. | :00:00. | |
criteria, which includes meeting the aims of political, economic and | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
monetary union. Better Together claims it "blows out of the water" | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
the suggestion that getting back into the EU would be "plain | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
sailing". The Scottish Government say Scotland ALREADY meets all the | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
requirements for membership outlined in the Copenhagen criteria. An | :00:16. | :00:24. | |
ambitious plan to work out who owns every part of Scotland is to be | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
completed in ten years, according to the Environment Minister. A mapping | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
project has been announced, days after a group published a report on | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
land reform. 62 recommendations have been set | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
out, among the suggestions, it called for a law to limit how much | :00:39. | :00:47. | |
land any single person can own. Finally, Paolo Nuttini and Katy | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
Perry are to head Radio 1's Big Weekend. | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
There have been performances by Cold Play andEd Sheeran. | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
Here is the weather. After a cloudy morning there are | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
sunny spells in the afternoon. But with the heavy showers, later they | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
could be slow moving with a risk of thunder and hail. Cooler in the east | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
with the on shore breeze. During the evening, the showers stay with us. | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
Drier conditions around it and the patchy mist and fog forming too, | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
continuing with the lighter winds. Now back to Gary. | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
Thank you. Dwindling congregations and a more | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
secular society has made the voice of the kirk minister from the pulpit | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
far quieter. The Church of Scotland has seen its role on the national | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
stage diminish. However, the debate on independence has given the kirk | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
the opportunity to once again get involved in serious constitutional | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
debate - as it also considers what its position might be if there's a | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
yes vote. Here is Andrew Kerr. Kirk and state, the Monarch's | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
representative Government and clergy came together at this year's general | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
assembly. In church speak, respectful dialogue on independence. | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
Douglas Alexander put the case for the union. | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
Reverend Doctor Doug Gay argued for a "yes" vote. Commissioners also had | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
their say. I and my fellow Church of Scotland | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
members can unite with the Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
look forward to an independent Scotland without sectarianism. An | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
independent Scotland where all are valued. I think independence is an | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
allusion to social change. I look forward to the debate being over, | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
resolved and then continuing conversation about how we bring | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
about the social change for everybody in these islands that I | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
think unites us and we all so desperately want to see. | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
One argues that the Kirk could benefit from the end of the union. | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
The role of the Kirk in an independent Scotland could be | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
considerable. I don't think it is something that | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
they should be fearful of or see in diminishing their ability about the | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
organisation. I think that the spotlight would be bigger on the | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
Church of Scotland. But the outgoing moderator wanted | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
clarity in the Kirk's position if there is independence, wary of a | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
secular, written constitution. I would like some kind of assurance, | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
ago the assurance has been in word form from various politicians, about | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
the future of not only our national church but indeed all religious | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
groups, about the place of religion and faith groups in a Scotland. If | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
we do have a "yes" vote, if we have a written constitution. | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
The Scottish Government say in the white paper, that they propose no | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
change to the legal status and churches will be fundmental in the | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
process of drafting a constitution. A report about the general assembly | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
is not complete without the shot of John Knoxx standing outside where | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
the assembly has been meeting. A man no stranger to debathe and | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
controversy about the future of the Kirk. The leader of the Protestant | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
reformation in Scotland helped mould a national church in more turbulent | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
times than we do now. In modern Scotland, the religious ideas are | :04:35. | :04:44. | |
changing. Professor Tom Define -- Devine has been exploring these. | :04:45. | :04:53. | |
We have seen a complete met more foe sips. A change. The data that I have | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
is from 2012 in relation to attitudes towards independence, that | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
has been coming up at that time. 30% of the sample question of roam an | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
Catholics favoured independence. But interestingly as well, only 16% of | :05:10. | :05:19. | |
Roman Catholics interviewed were in any sense worried about the | :05:20. | :05:30. | |
consequences of independence. Back at the assembly, the moderator was | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
concerned about the prospect of division after the referendum. What | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
ever happens, the Kirk will meet here again next year. | :05:38. | :05:48. | |
I'm now joined in the studio by the Reverend Doctor Doug Gay who was | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
supporting independence at the Assembly this week and, from | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
Edinburgh, I'm joined by the Reverend Ewan Aitken. A former | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
Labour councillor in the city, he's a supporter of the union. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
In having this debate this week, is the church leading on this issue, or | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
is it following? I think the church is taking part, which is what it | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
should be doing. I think some people are sometimes suspicious of the | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Kirk, that it is trying to be a dominant or domineering voice in | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
Scottish culture. What we did on Tuesday was build a dialogue. We | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
have been trying to say that our voices and all voice as the Kirk | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
matters in this debate, but it matters alongside a range of other | :06:31. | :06:38. | |
voices. We want to play our part. That seems a bit of a change. On | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
other issues, the church has seen itself as being in a position where | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
it should be leading? Yes, but this is about how we organise society. | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
This is how to create spaces for that conversation can happen. In the | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
end, it is not the church that has a vote, it is about the people having | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
a vote. That is why we have run events across the country where we | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
have got people to have a dialogue about the values that make a society | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
before getting to the point of voting. And it is the capacity for | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
making those type of spaces that has met the church made a very different | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
type of contribution. If there is a yes vote, what sort of role do you | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
see the Kirk playing? I think the Kirk would continue to play an | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
important role, but the Kirk is a very democratic institution, it | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
values democracy in its own structures and in Scotland. It is | :07:52. | :08:02. | |
not wanting to impose itself. Do you share those reservations that we | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
heard about the potential for a more secular society after a yes vote? | :08:08. | :08:16. | |
Scotland is becoming a more secular society. But I am relaxed about | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
that. I think that if there is a vote for independence, there will be | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
a constitutional convention and the church and other faith traditions | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
will play there on that. What we are looking for is a democratic | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
solution. We support the democratic process. How do you view this | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
argument that an independent Scotland would be more in tune with | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
the values of the Kirk than perhaps the Westminster government? That is | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
a dangerous manifestation of an argument that Scotland is better and | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
fairer than England. I am unconvinced by that. It may be | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
better and fairer than under the Tories, but that is not balanced | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
argument. The church plays a role around Britain as a catalyst for | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
building communities where people look after each other. I think that | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
is more important than some of the other issues. Has this issue being | :09:29. | :09:38. | |
overplayed when people are asked for their attitudes on social and | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
political issues, they are not hugely at odds with people elsewhere | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
in the UK. My argument is not that Scots are better people than anyone | :09:51. | :10:00. | |
else. We have a unique opportunity to go on a journey of reform. We | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
have very similar issues for a more just and equal Scotland. I believe | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
that only independence offers us the level of self determination to push | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
towards that. The moderator is talking about a service of | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
reconciliation after the vote in September. Is that something that is | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
needed? Do you get a sense that this debate is that divisive? It is going | :10:29. | :10:41. | |
to be close which means that unlike other occasions there has been a | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
huge movement one way or other, there will be a sense of division | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
and people will feel they campaigned long and hard and not got what they | :10:51. | :10:59. | |
hoped for. In a sense, it is not saying... We went on a journey to | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
make a decision, we need to say that we take all those emotions and | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
energies back into a place of unity. I think that is why the | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
church wants to do that, to make sure we are quick about that, we do | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
not let any potential division fester for too long and really see, | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
let's work on this and whatever the journey is that we are alone. What | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
do you think? I think some people have suggested that the new | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
moderator has been overstating the degree of conflict or division that | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
there will be. I do not think this was his aim at all. It has been a | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
divisive contest and one of the things that concerns me is that | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
often relationships between the SNP, the party I support, and the | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
Labour Party have been better, but we are friends and we have a | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
respectful dialogue about this. A service of reconciliation is in that | :12:01. | :12:11. | |
spirit. Is you can also write -- Is Ewan also right that divisions will | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
be hard to heal if the result is close? I think some people will feel | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
jubilate, others will be disappointed. -- jubilant. We are | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
seeing that what ever the result, they will have to unite and go | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
forward and seek the common good of Scotland. Should there have been a | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
vote this week to clear things up for people? No, there should not. | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
The place for the vote is on the ballot box. That is right and | :12:45. | :12:57. | |
proper. Constantly forcing people into corners creates division. In | :12:58. | :13:06. | |
other parts of life, we take time to make big decisions. The time we have | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
got up until the September vote, that will make for a better | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
conversation and make less likelihood of huge division at the | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
point of the vote. Do you think the debate this week changed anybody's | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
mind? I obviously hope it did. I hope that some people were more | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
convinced about the case for independence. I think it is | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
important we have good conversations about this. There have been lots of | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
conversations about the type of Scotland we want to live in. Thank | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
you. That's all from the us this week. | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
The programme isn't on next week, so we'll be back at the same time on | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
Sunday June eighth. Goodbye. | :14:00. | :14:03. |