25/05/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


25/05/2014

With Gary Robertson. Andrew Neil is joined by communities secretary Eric Pickles, Labour MP Diane Abbott and Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn to discuss the local and European elections.


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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:42.

Senior Liberal Democrats say the public has lost trust in Nick Clegg.

:00:43.:00:46.

They call for him to go after Thursday's local election meltdown

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and before a likely Euro vote catastrophe tonight.

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That is our top story. Labour and Tories struggle to cope

:00:55.:00:57.

with the UKIP insurgency as Nigel Farage toasts his party's success

:00:58.:01:01.

and declares the UKIP fox is in the Westminster henhouse.

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And we all have to eat, but should politicians wait until the cameras

:01:09.:01:12.

are switched off? Coming up on Sunday Politics

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Scotland. After the fire in the landmark Mackintosh Building at

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Glasgow School of Art, we'll speak live to the Culture Secretary Fiona

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Hyslop. hour.

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Cooped up in the Sunday Politics henhouse, our own boot should --

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bunch of headless chickens. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh. The

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Liberal Democrats lost over 300 councillors on Thursday, on top of

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the losses in previous years, the local government base has been

:01:50.:01:53.

whittled away in many parts of the country. Members of the European

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Parliament will face a similar comment when the results are

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announced tonight. A small but growing chorus of Liberal Democrats

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have called on Nick Clegg to go. This is what the candidate in West

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Dorset had to say. People know that locally we worked

:02:10.:02:16.

incredibly hard on their councils and as their MPs, but Nick Clegg is

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perceived to have not been trustworthy in leadership. Do you

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trust him? He has lacked bone on significant issues that are the core

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values of our party. This is how the party president

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responded. At this time, it would be foolish

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for us as a party to turn in on ourselves. What has separated us

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from the Conservatives is, while they have been like cats in a sack,

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we have stood united, and that is what we will continue to do. The

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major reason why is because we consented to the coalition, unlike

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the Conservatives. We had a vote, and a full conference.

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Is there a growing question over Nick Clegg's leadership? Different

:03:15.:03:21.

people have different views. My own view is I need to consult my own

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activists and members before coming to a conclusion. I am looking at

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holding a meeting for us to discuss the issue. I have been told by some

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people they do not think a meeting is required, they think he should

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stay, and other people have decided he should go. As a responsible

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Democrat, I should consult the members here before coming to my

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conclusions. What is your view at the moment? I have got to listen to

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my members. But you must have some kind of you. Because I have an open

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mind, I do not think he must stay, I am willing to say I have not made my

:04:01.:04:06.

mind up. From a news point of view, that is my official position. I can

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assure you there is not much news in that! I said earlier I am not going

:04:12.:04:17.

to say he must go must stay, I am consulting my members. But you must

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have some kind of view of your own before you have listened to your

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members. There are people who are wrongfully sanctioned and end up

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using food banks, I am upset about that, because we should not

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allow... I do not mind having a sanctioning system, that I get

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constituents who are put in this position, we should not accept that.

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I rebel on the issue of a referendum on membership of the EU. I am also

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concerned about the way the rules have been changed in terms of how

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parents are treated in their ability to take children to funerals out of

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school time. There are questions about the leader's responsible T for

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those policies. Nick Clegg has made it clear he is a staunch

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pro-European, he wants the Liberal Democrats to be in, he does not want

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a referendum, if you lose a chunk of your MEPs tonight, what does that

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say about how in June you are with written public opinion? There are

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issues with how you publish your policies. I do not agree 100% with

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what the government is doing or with what Nick Clegg says. I do think we

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should stay within the EU, because the alternative means we have less

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control over our borders. There is a presentational issue, because what

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UKIP want, to leave the EU, is worse in terms of control of borders,

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which is their main reason for wanting to leave, which is strange.

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There are debate issues, but I have got personal concerns, I do worry

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about the impact on my constituents when they face wrongful sanctions.

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You have said that. A fellow Liberal Democrat MP has compared Nick Clegg

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to a general at the Somme, causing carnage amongst the troops. I am

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more interested in the policy issues, are we doing the right

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things? I do think the coalition was essential, we had to rescue the

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country from financial problems. My own view on the issue of student

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finance, we did the right thing, in accordance with the pledge, which

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was to get a better system, more students are going to university,

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and more from disadvantaged backgrounds. But there are issues.

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But Nick Clegg survive as leader through till the next election? It

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depends what odds you will give me! If you are not going to give me is,

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I am not going to get! If you listen to John hemming, he has got nothing

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to worry about. He does have something to worry about, they lost

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300 seats, on the uniform swing, you would see people like Vince cable

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and Simon Hughes lose their seats. But nobody wants to be the one to

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we'll be nice, they would rather wait until after the next election,

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and then rebuild the party. Yes, there is no chance of him walking

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away. Somebody like Tim Farron or Vince Cable, whoever the successor

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is, though have to close the dagger ten months before an election, do

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they want that spectacle? If I were Nick Clegg, I would walk away, it is

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reasonably obvious that the left-wing voters who defect had

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towards the Labour Party in 2010 will not return while he is leader.

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And anything he was going to achieve historically, the already has done.

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Unlike David Miliband, sorry, Ed Miliband or David Cameron, he has

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transformed the identity of the party, they are in government. Had

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it not been for him, they would have continued to be the main protest

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party, rather than a party of government. So he has got to take it

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all the way through until the election. If he left now, he would

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look like he was a tenant in the conservative house. What we are

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seeing is an operation to destabilise Nick Clegg, but it is a

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Liberal Democrat one, so it is chaotic. There are people who have

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never really been reconciled to the coalition and to Nick Clegg, they

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are pushing for this. What is Nick Clegg going to do, and Tim Farron?

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-- what is Vince Cable going to do? Vince Cable is in China, on a

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business trip. It is like John Major's toothache in 1990. What is

:08:56.:09:04.

Tim Farron doing? He is behind Nick Clegg, because he knows that his

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best chances of being leader are as the Westland candidate, the person

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who picks up the mess in a year. Vince Cable's only opportunity is on

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this side of the election. But you say they are not a party of

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government, but what looks more likely is overall the -- is no

:09:25.:09:31.

overall control. You might find a common mission looking appealing.

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They could still hold the balance of power. A lot of people in the Labour

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Party might say, let's just have a minority government. 30 odds and

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sods who will not turn up to vote. If they want to be up until 3am

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every morning, be like that! When you were in short trousers, it was

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like that every night, it was great fun! The Liberal Democrats will not

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provide confidence to a minority government, they will pull the plug

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and behave ruthlessly. Does Nick leg lead the Liberal Democrats into the

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next election? Yes. Yes. Yes. I am sorry, Nick Clegg, you are

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finished! We will speak to Paddy Ashdown in the second part of the

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show to speak about the Liberal Democrats. The UKIP insurgency could

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not deliver the promised earthquake, but it produced enough shock waves

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to discombobulated the established parties. They are struggling to work

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out how to deal with them. We watched it all unfold.

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Behind the scenes of any election night is intensely busy. Those in

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charge of party strategy and logistics want their people focused,

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working with purpose and rehearsed to make sure their spin on the

:11:00.:11:03.

results is what viewers remember and take on board. A bit of a buzz of

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activity inside the BBC's studio, kept and primed for the results.

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What this does not show due is the exterior doubles up for hospital

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dramas like Holby City, there are doorways that are mock-ups of

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accident and emergency, but the electorate will discover which of

:11:25.:11:27.

the parties they have put into intensive care, which ones are

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coming out of recovery and which ones are in rude health. We joined

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David Dimbleby. Good evening, welcome to the BBC's new election

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centre. When three big beasts become for on the political field, things

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have changed. Eric Pickles says we will be seen off next year, we will

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see you at Westminster! This party is going to break through next year,

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and you never know, we might even hold the balance of power. Old

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messages that gave voters in excuses to go elsewhere on the ballot paper

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exposed the older players to questions from within their ranks.

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In the hen house of the House of Commons, the fox that wants to get

:12:11.:12:13.

in has ruffled feathers. The reason they have had amazing success, a

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rapid rise, partly what Chuka Umunna says about being a repository, but

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they have also managed to sound like human beings, and that his Nigel

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Farage's eight victory. For some conservatives, a pact was the best

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form of defence. It would be preferable if all members of UKIP

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and voters became Tories overnight. That seems to be an ambitious

:12:41.:12:45.

proposition. Therefore, we need to do something that welcomes them on

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board in a slightly different way. Labour had successes, but nobody but

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they're wizards of Spain was completely buying a big success

:12:57.:13:00.

story. Gaffes behind the scenes and strategic errors were levelled at

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those who have managed the campaign. They have played a clever game, you

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shuffle bedecked around, and if UKIP does quite well but not well enough,

:13:11.:13:13.

that helps Labour get in. That kind of mindset will not win the general

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election, and we saw that in the tap ticks and strategy, and that is why,

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on our leaflets for the European elections, we chose deliberately not

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to attack UKIP, that was a bad error. Not so, so somebody who has

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been in that spotlight. If you look at the electoral maths, UKIP will

:13:38.:13:41.

still be aiming at the Tories in a general election. They are the

:13:42.:13:45.

second party in Rotherham, Labour will always hold what the room, it

:13:46.:13:49.

is safe, there is no point being second in a safe seat. UKIP have

:13:50.:13:54.

taken Castle Point, a Tory seat they will target. The question for the

:13:55.:14:00.

next election, can they make a challenge? The Tories will be under

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the gun from UKIP. The substance of these results is UKIP not in

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government, they do not have any MPs, they do not run a single

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Council, at dismissing them ceased to be an option. The question is,

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who will they heard most and how do you smoke the keeper's threat?

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Joining me now, day about and Patrick O'Flynn. Do you agree not

:14:35.:14:42.

enough was done for the elections? No, we have very good results around

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Hammersmith and Fulham, Croydon, Redbridge, and we picked off council

:14:49.:14:54.

wards in Haringey meaning that Lynne Featherstone and Simon Hughes worked

:14:55.:15:03.

on. The Ashcroft polling shows that in key marginals, we are well ahead

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and on course to win in 2015. I will be putting Mr Ashcroft's poll to

:15:09.:15:17.

Eric Pickles shortly. On the basis of the local elections your national

:15:18.:15:22.

share of the vote would be just 31%, only two points ahead of the Tories,

:15:23.:15:27.

only two points ahead of Gordon Brown's disastrous performance in

:15:28.:15:34.

2010. Why so low? National share is one thing but I am talking about

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what we are doing in the key marginals. Clearly some were taken

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away from others like Rotherham but we have got many voters back. You

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are only two points better than you were in 2010 and use of your worst

:15:53.:15:58.

defeat in living memory. That is the totality. What matters

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is seat by seat, that is what the Republicans found in the

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presidential elections. Patrick O'Flynn, you performed well in the

:16:09.:16:12.

local election but it wasn't an earthquake. It is definitely true

:16:13.:16:16.

that Labour did well in London but that is a double-edged sword because

:16:17.:16:20.

you have an increasing disconnect between the metropolis and the rest

:16:21.:16:28.

of the country. Our vote share was somewhat depressed not just because

:16:29.:16:31.

London is one of our weakest part of the country but because most of the

:16:32.:16:37.

warts in London were 3-member wards and we were typically only putting

:16:38.:16:41.

up one candidate. Even when they fared well, it still tracked down

:16:42.:16:45.

the projected national share. I think we did well, and what was

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particularly good was getting the target seat list becoming clear

:16:55.:17:07.

before our eyes. Suzanne Evans said that basically smart folk don't vote

:17:08.:17:13.

for UKIP. I think that is a tiny fragment of what she said. She said

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London is its own entity and is increasingly different from the rest

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of the country. One of the things that is different from London as

:17:23.:17:27.

opposed to Rotherham is that we have very big parties. I have a few

:17:28.:17:31.

thousand people in mind, Rotherham has a few hundred. People don't go

:17:32.:17:38.

and knock on doors and talk to people, in London we have always had

:17:39.:17:43.

to do that. London is full of young voters, full of ethnically diverse

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voters, that is why you are not doing well, you don't appeal to live

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there. I think London in general has a very different attitude to mass

:17:54.:17:58.

uncontrolled immigration. Londoners know that if an immigrant moves in

:17:59.:18:09.

next door to you, to use Nigel Farage's phrase, the world doesn't

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end tomorrow. People in the big cities know that, that is the point.

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What Diane Abbott is doing is try to convince London of its moral

:18:22.:18:27.

superiority so I am delighted... It is a simple fact that immigrants do

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not end the world if they move in next door. The economic recovery is

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getting more robust by the month, you have a seriously to ship problem

:18:38.:18:41.

according to many people on your own site. Maybe you're 31% of the vote

:18:42.:18:50.

is as good as it gets. Those who go round bitching about Ed Miliband

:18:51.:18:56.

have been doing that before the result. We have all polled very

:18:57.:19:04.

well. Ed Miliband does not polled very well. He has actually fashioned

:19:05.:19:15.

some really effective policies. Unemployment is tumbling, inflation

:19:16.:19:19.

is falling, growth is strengthening, and you have a leader who claims

:19:20.:19:23.

there is a cost of living crisis and he doesn't have a clue about his own

:19:24.:19:31.

cost of living. I think that was poor staff work. That he doesn't

:19:32.:19:36.

know what goes in his own shopping basket? I think his own staff could

:19:37.:19:48.

have prepared him for that. My point is that the numbers are looking

:19:49.:19:52.

better, we know that, but people don't feel better off. Then why are

:19:53.:20:03.

all consumer index polls better? They are feeling confident. They may

:20:04.:20:07.

be saying that, but people are worried about their future, their

:20:08.:20:13.

children's future. That is not what you buy today or tomorrow. If you

:20:14.:20:17.

ask people about their future and their children's future and

:20:18.:20:20.

prospects, they feel frightened. What will be a good result for you

:20:21.:20:26.

in the general election? We need to see Nigel Farage elected as an MP

:20:27.:20:32.

and he mustn't go there on his own. How many people do you think will be

:20:33.:20:38.

with him? Who knows, but we will have 20 to 30 target seat and if you

:20:39.:20:44.

put together the clusters we got in last year's County elections with

:20:45.:20:47.

the one we got this year, you can have a good guess at where they

:20:48.:20:52.

are. A number of people who voted for you and Thursday say they are

:20:53.:20:56.

going to back to the three main parties in general election. It

:20:57.:21:01.

would be foolish of me to say that they are going to stay. Some have

:21:02.:21:09.

said they have just lent their votes but voters hate being taken for

:21:10.:21:18.

granted. It is up to us to broaden our agenda, and build on our

:21:19.:21:26.

strengths, work on our weaknesses. Ed Miliband may have to do a deal

:21:27.:21:32.

with him. We have been here before, but the UKIP bubble is going to

:21:33.:21:38.

burst and that may happen around the time of Newark. Are you going to win

:21:39.:21:44.

Newark now? We are going to give it a really good crack. We love being

:21:45.:21:48.

the underdog, we don't see it as being the big goal -- the be all and

:21:49.:21:57.

end all. If you're going to get a big bounce off the elections, not to

:21:58.:22:06.

go and win your shows people who govern in Parliament, they don't

:22:07.:22:13.

vote for you. It is Labour who have given up the campaign already so we

:22:14.:22:16.

need a really big swing in our favour and we will give it a great

:22:17.:22:24.

crack. The bubble will burst at the Newark by-election, trust me. Have

:22:25.:22:31.

you been to Newark? Newark will see from local people... Where is it? It

:22:32.:22:40.

is outside the M25, I can tell you that. My point is that we are set

:22:41.:22:45.

for victory in 2015. I want to run this clip and get your take on it,

:22:46.:22:50.

an interview that Nigel Farage did with LBC. What they do is they have

:22:51.:22:56.

an auditor to make sure they spend their money in accordance with their

:22:57.:23:00.

rules. You say that is if there is something wrong with it. Hang on,

:23:01.:23:11.

hang on. This is Patrick O'Flynn, is this a friend in the media or a

:23:12.:23:16.

member of the political class? Do you regret doing that now? What were

:23:17.:23:25.

you doing? No, I was trying to get Nigel Farage to a more important

:23:26.:23:30.

interview with Sunday Times that had painstakingly organised. He was on

:23:31.:23:40.

there? I have told the LBC people next door that he was running over.

:23:41.:23:45.

So you interrupted a live interview and you don't regret that? No,

:23:46.:23:51.

because just between us I wasn't a massive enthusiast for that

:23:52.:23:55.

interview taking place at all. I know what James O'Brien is like and

:23:56.:24:00.

I knew it wouldn't be particularly edifying. But your boss wasn't happy

:24:01.:24:11.

with the intervention. Sometimes the boss gets shirty. We all upset our

:24:12.:24:20.

boss every now and again, but anyway you could be an MEP by this time

:24:21.:24:25.

tomorrow and you won't have to do this job any more. You can then just

:24:26.:24:30.

count your salary and your expenses. I will make the contribution my

:24:31.:24:36.

party leader asked me to, to restore Britain to being a self-governing

:24:37.:24:39.

country. Are you going to stay in the job or not? I would not be able

:24:40.:24:41.

country. Are you going to stay in to do the job in the same way but I

:24:42.:24:46.

would maybe have some kind of overview. We will leave it there.

:24:47.:24:55.

Yesterday Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy chairman, produced a mammoth

:24:56.:25:00.

opinion poll of more than 26,000 voters in 26 marginal

:25:01.:25:04.

constituencies, crucial seat that will decide the outcome of the

:25:05.:25:08.

general election next year. In 26 constituencies people were asked

:25:09.:25:13.

which party's candidate they would support, and Labour took a healthy

:25:14.:25:27.

12 point lead, implying a swing of 6.5% from Conservatives to Labour

:25:28.:25:34.

from the last general election. That implies Labour would topple 83 Tory

:25:35.:25:39.

MPs. The poll also shows UKIP in second place in four seats, and

:25:40.:25:51.

three of them are Labour seats. Michael Ashcroft says a quarter of

:25:52.:25:56.

those who say they would vote UKIP supported the Tories at the last

:25:57.:26:01.

election. As many as have switched from Labour and the Lib Dems

:26:02.:26:05.

combined. The communities Secretary Eric

:26:06.:26:10.

Pickles joins me now. The Ashcroft Paul that gives Labour a massive 12

:26:11.:26:15.

point lead in the crucial marginal constituencies, you would lose 83

:26:16.:26:19.

MPs if this was repeated in an election. It doesn't get worse than

:26:20.:26:24.

that, does it? Yesterday I went through that Paul in great detail,

:26:25.:26:32.

and what it shows is that in a number of key seats we are ahead,

:26:33.:26:38.

and somewhere behind, and I think is Michael rightly shows... You are

:26:39.:26:43.

behind in most of them. This is a snapshot and we have a year in which

:26:44.:26:47.

the economy is going to be improving, and we have a year to say

:26:48.:26:51.

to those candidates that are fighting those key seats, look, just

:26:52.:26:55.

around the corner people are ahead in the same kind of seat as you and

:26:56.:27:05.

we need to redouble our efforts. The Tory brand is dying in major parts

:27:06.:27:08.

of the country, you are the walking dead in Scotland, and now London,

:27:09.:27:12.

huge chunks of London are becoming a no-go zone for you. That's not true

:27:13.:27:22.

with regard to the northern seats. Tell me what seats you have? In

:27:23.:27:27.

terms of councillors we are the largest party in local government.

:27:28.:27:33.

After four years in power... You are smiling but no political party has

:27:34.:27:39.

ever done that. You haven't got a single councillor in the great city

:27:40.:27:44.

of Manchester. We have councillors in Bradford and Leeds, we have

:27:45.:27:50.

more... You haven't got an MP in any of the big cities? We have more

:27:51.:27:55.

councillors in the north of England than Labour. A quarter of those who

:27:56.:28:00.

say they would vote UKIP and did vote UKIP supported the Tories at

:28:01.:28:05.

the last election. Why are so many of your 2010 voters now so

:28:06.:28:11.

disillusioned? Any election will bring a degree of churning, and we

:28:12.:28:15.

hope to get as many back as we can, but we also want to get Liberal

:28:16.:28:19.

Democrats, people who voted for the Lib Dems and the Labour Party. If we

:28:20.:28:25.

concentrate on one part of the electorate, then we won't take power

:28:26.:28:30.

and I believe we will because I believe we represent a wide spectrum

:28:31.:28:35.

of opinion in this country and I believe that delivering a long-term

:28:36.:28:39.

economic plan, delivering prosperity into people 's pockets will be felt.

:28:40.:28:44.

On the basis of the local election results, you would not pick up a

:28:45.:28:47.

single Labour seat in the general election. You make the point that it

:28:48.:28:57.

is about local elections. Seats that Labour should have taken from us

:28:58.:29:04.

they didn't, which is important... I am asking what possible Labour seat

:29:05.:29:09.

you would hope to win after the results on Thursday. Local elections

:29:10.:29:13.

are local elections. The national election will have a much bigger

:29:14.:29:17.

turnout, it will be one year from now, we will be able to demonstrate

:29:18.:29:23.

to the population that the trends we are seeing already in terms of the

:29:24.:29:27.

success of our long-term economic plan, they will be feeling that in

:29:28.:29:31.

their pockets. People need to feel secure about their jobs and feel

:29:32.:29:37.

that their children have a future. Maybe so many of your people are

:29:38.:29:41.

defecting to UKIP because on issues that they really care about like

:29:42.:29:45.

mass immigration, you don't keep your promises.

:29:46.:29:56.

We have reduced immigration and the amount of pull factors. Let me give

:29:57.:30:00.

you the figures. You have said a couple of things are not true. You

:30:01.:30:08.

promised to cut net immigration to under 100,000 by 2015, last year it

:30:09.:30:14.

rose by 50,000, 212,000. You have broken your promise. We still intend

:30:15.:30:19.

to reduce the amount from non-EU countries. I want to be clear, I

:30:20.:30:26.

have no problem with people coming here who want to work and pay their

:30:27.:30:30.

national insurance and tax, to help fund the health service. What I have

:30:31.:30:36.

objection to our people coming here to get the additional benefits. You

:30:37.:30:42.

made the promise. It is our intention to deliver it. People

:30:43.:30:50.

defect to UKIP because mainstream politicians to -- like yourself do

:30:51.:30:55.

not give straight answers. Can you be straight, you will not hit your

:30:56.:30:58.

immigration target by the election, correct? We will announce measures

:30:59.:31:05.

that. People factor. Will you hit your target? It is a year from now,

:31:06.:31:11.

it is our intention to move towards the target. Is it your intention, do

:31:12.:31:19.

you say you will hit your target of under 100,000 net migration by the

:31:20.:31:24.

election? We will do our damnedest. But you will not make it. I do not

:31:25.:31:30.

know that to be fact. They also vote UKIP cos they do not trust you and

:31:31.:31:35.

Europe, David Cameron has promised a referendum, he has vowed to resign

:31:36.:31:39.

if he does not deliver one, but still your voters vote for UKIP.

:31:40.:31:45.

There were reasons why people voted for UKIP. A great deal of anger

:31:46.:31:54.

about the political system, about the Metropolitan elite that they see

:31:55.:31:56.

running programmes like this and the political programmes. We

:31:57.:32:21.

I don't know what our position will be tonight. If you do come third, it

:32:22.:32:31.

will be because they don't trust you? Next year, there will be a

:32:32.:32:38.

general election about money in people's pockets and who will run

:32:39.:32:42.

the country. Your colleague on the backbenches, David Davies, wants to

:32:43.:32:48.

get the voters to trust you on the referendum. He is a very clever guy,

:32:49.:32:56.

but in terms of negotiating a better deal to give the population a better

:32:57.:33:02.

choice, you require two years to be able to do that. You are an Essex

:33:03.:33:09.

MP, it must be really depressing that Essex man and Essex women is

:33:10.:33:18.

now UKIP? I don't have any UKIP in my constituency. The usual high

:33:19.:33:28.

Essex... The Tory party does not resonate with Essex man in the way

:33:29.:33:38.

that it did under Thatcher. We need to connect, that is for sure. Voters

:33:39.:33:47.

want to know about their children's future, will they get a good

:33:48.:33:53.

education? When it comes to collecting and national government,

:33:54.:33:59.

Essex man does not want to see Ed Miliband in office. In terms of what

:34:00.:34:08.

government you get, do you want to see David Cameron or Ed Miliband as

:34:09.:34:20.

Prime Minister? Last general election, you did not get Essex man

:34:21.:34:26.

vote in this same quantities as under Margaret Thatcher or a and

:34:27.:34:46.

major. As you said at the beginning, it is where you deliver those votes.

:34:47.:34:52.

We have our campaign where we are looking at key marginals. We know

:34:53.:34:59.

where we are not doing as well as we should. Does he do these polls to be

:35:00.:35:13.

helpful? He is a good conservative and the publication was one of the

:35:14.:35:17.

best things that happened to our party. You are down to 22% of the

:35:18.:35:28.

vote. If you had a pact with UKIP, you could do much better. I am a

:35:29.:35:34.

Democrat. I believe you should put your policies out there and people

:35:35.:35:42.

can decide how they want to vote. Would you stop a local pact? There

:35:43.:35:49.

will be no pact with UKIP. None. Thank you.

:35:50.:35:54.

You are watching the sandy politics. We say goodbye to viewers in

:35:55.:35:57.

Scotland. Good morning and welcome to Sunday

:35:58.:36:10.

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme. Flames from the landmark

:36:11.:36:12.

Mackintosh building at Glasgow School of Art on Friday. We'll speak

:36:13.:36:16.

to the Culture Secretary live. This former nurse worked in the NHS,

:36:17.:36:20.

but as a patient she struggled to get her complaint addressed. We'll

:36:21.:36:23.

look at what can be done to ease the process.

:36:24.:36:28.

And I'm on the mound in Edinburgh where the General Assembly of the

:36:29.:36:31.

Church of Scotland has been meeting. Commissioners have been arguing for

:36:32.:36:35.

and against independence. What role for the kirk in a different kind of

:36:36.:36:45.

constitutional set-up? Good morning. Curators at the Glasgow School of

:36:46.:36:48.

Art will be assessing what can be saved over the next few days after

:36:49.:36:52.

the fire at the building on Friday. Last night, it emerged the library,

:36:53.:36:55.

which was designed by Charles Rennie Macintosh, has been destroyed in the

:36:56.:36:58.

blaze. Firefighters say they'll be scaling back their operation and

:36:59.:37:01.

teams will now investigate the cause of the fire. Both the UK and

:37:02.:37:05.

Scottish governments have said they will contribute to the restoration

:37:06.:37:07.

of the Mackintosh Building. Joining me now is the Culture Secretary,

:37:08.:37:11.

Fiona Hyslop, and Neil Baxter from the Royal Incorporation of

:37:12.:37:12.

Architects in Scotland. What is your understanding of the

:37:13.:37:16.

scale of the damage? I was the yesterday. It is quite remarkable

:37:17.:37:23.

what they did standing as a firewall on the stairwell, protecting the

:37:24.:37:28.

east end of the building. Their assessment that 90% of the building

:37:29.:37:34.

and 70% of the content is safe is remarkable. We walk a lot to them.

:37:35.:37:44.

The loss of the library is tragic. But McIntosh worked in precious

:37:45.:37:56.

ideas as well as materials. And we know that we can work with other

:37:57.:38:02.

agencies to ensure we can use state of the art documentation and start

:38:03.:38:08.

the process of recovery and restoration. There is hope for the

:38:09.:38:11.

future. A big loss, but we have to recover.

:38:12.:38:17.

What did firefighters say to you about the potential cause? That is

:38:18.:38:21.

what the investigation has two assays. There is no if statement on

:38:22.:38:35.

that yet. -- must assess. The firefighters were on site within

:38:36.:38:40.

four minutes. They have often been in the building. I cannot emphasise

:38:41.:38:46.

enough that we or the saving of this building to our firefighters.

:38:47.:38:52.

Glasgow School of Art seeing it is tragically ironic that a new fire

:38:53.:38:55.

suppression system was due to be fitted under the dash over the

:38:56.:39:03.

summer. In terms of what you can do with a listed building, you have to

:39:04.:39:07.

be very careful. Sprinklers can also cause damage. It is very sad that

:39:08.:39:16.

system was not in place. Tell us about the Scottish Government's

:39:17.:39:22.

involvement. How much money will you have two hand over? In terms of

:39:23.:39:28.

immediate response, we were on site immediately. The immediate

:39:29.:39:33.

conservation is very important, capturing what is there. The Royal

:39:34.:39:40.

commission of ancient monuments, their experts in photography and

:39:41.:39:46.

fair and work is taking place on that. Textiles are being removed,

:39:47.:40:01.

with the help of conservators. All that needs to be done will be done.

:40:02.:40:04.

But we will have to work in partnership, under the leadership of

:40:05.:40:17.

the Glasgow School of Art. They have worked very hard and will continue

:40:18.:40:22.

to work hard. The building is important, but the students work is

:40:23.:40:27.

also very important. Continuity of support for them is very important.

:40:28.:40:34.

The Education Secretary has been in touch to make sure we can continue

:40:35.:40:38.

that support for students. Do you welcome the statement from the

:40:39.:40:41.

Westminster government that they stand ready to make a financial

:40:42.:40:45.

contribution? Of course, and we have been in touch to find out what they

:40:46.:40:49.

can provide. International interest has been phenomenal as well. We have

:40:50.:40:55.

to look at the covering both of the building but also to help support

:40:56.:41:00.

the students and staff. But the outpouring of response shows how

:41:01.:41:06.

precious this building is. It's not just the building itself, but what

:41:07.:41:09.

it does for the life, building and heritage of Scotland. Tell us about

:41:10.:41:13.

how important this building is. It is unique, but that does not make

:41:14.:41:22.

it great. It's not simply good, it is a building of the first

:41:23.:41:27.

international importance. It has been described as one of the first

:41:28.:41:32.

truly modern buildings in the world. Its influence in terms of the

:41:33.:41:37.

architects that it has nurtured, and who have come from all over the

:41:38.:41:43.

world, creators and artists. This is about a place that is more than its

:41:44.:41:48.

architecture. Charles Rennie Mackintosh created something that

:41:49.:41:52.

was an all embracing work of art, every element. It is an

:41:53.:41:56.

extraordinarily comprehensive and complete police. What was his vision

:41:57.:42:06.

when he set out to mark the building was built in two faces so you see a

:42:07.:42:15.

transition in McIntosh as well. The first phase is looking a bit

:42:16.:42:21.

backwards, to the arts and crafts movement of the time. By the time we

:42:22.:42:29.

get into the second phase, and the library was the epitome of that

:42:30.:42:34.

second phase, he is very much at the top of his game. He is a truly

:42:35.:42:38.

great, international architect. He has travelled, he has been involved

:42:39.:42:43.

in the European architectural movement of his time and he is

:42:44.:42:50.

synthesising a whole number of ideas. This was a time of great firm

:42:51.:42:55.

and internationally of architectural ideas and innovation and he brings

:42:56.:43:01.

that together. You have a technical and artistic tour de force. And the

:43:02.:43:09.

materials that he used, that is going to be very important when it

:43:10.:43:14.

comes to designing. He used the materials that were available. It

:43:15.:43:21.

should be emphasised that the skills in Glasgow at that time were

:43:22.:43:25.

extraordinary. Glasgow have this tremendously strong tradition of

:43:26.:43:30.

shipbuilding and a lot of that is brought in and used in this

:43:31.:43:35.

building. It uses some of the contemporary Glasgow-based

:43:36.:43:38.

technology of working with metal. A lot of the struck, the reason why

:43:39.:43:43.

the building has stood solid is it is very solidly built. While we saw

:43:44.:43:50.

the destruction of a lot of internal timbers, and thank heavens that 70%

:43:51.:44:02.

of the internal fabric is intact, quite remarkable given the pictures.

:44:03.:44:08.

On Friday, people are standing crying in the street because we all

:44:09.:44:14.

felt that they were watching the death of something that was

:44:15.:44:18.

incredibly dear to us. The fact is, as the Cabinet Secretary has said,

:44:19.:44:25.

we must now do everything we can to help and participate in the

:44:26.:44:29.

resurrection of the building. Because it has been so meticulously

:44:30.:44:34.

studied, there are superb measured studies of every aspect and the

:44:35.:44:39.

library, perhaps, more than any other part. The information is

:44:40.:44:44.

there. The archaeological work that is no ongoing and the meticulous

:44:45.:44:49.

working through of the deeply will all contribute to the remaking.

:44:50.:44:56.

Hopefully, there will be elements that can be used again in that

:44:57.:45:00.

process. Is possible to put a time frame on this? We will leave that to

:45:01.:45:08.

the experts. What happens in the immediate aftermath in terms of

:45:09.:45:12.

documenting what is there, as well as the records we have, I should

:45:13.:45:15.

also point out that the recent conservation work carried out by

:45:16.:45:21.

Historic Scotland has met that the archive was protected because it had

:45:22.:45:26.

been recently moved to a new state of the art archive so a lot of the

:45:27.:45:31.

records that people thought had been lost were in a conservation archive.

:45:32.:45:36.

So that is something to be thankful for. But it is about going forward.

:45:37.:45:41.

In terms of expertise, we have offers of support from all over the

:45:42.:45:45.

world. In terms of the expertise we have, Glasgow School of Art and

:45:46.:45:53.

Historic Scotland are experts in digital documentation and are using

:45:54.:45:58.

those skills to see the rebirth and BB King of the building. --

:45:59.:46:08.

remaking. NHS professionals are missing

:46:09.:46:10.

opportunities to improve patient care due to poor handling of

:46:11.:46:13.

complaints according to Scotland's public services ombudsman. In a

:46:14.:46:15.

strongly worded report, Jim Martin says some NHS boards fail to learn

:46:16.:46:19.

from their mistakes after complaints are made, leading to unnecessary

:46:20.:46:21.

distress for patients. The report comes as figures released to this

:46:22.:46:24.

programme show the number of compensation claims made against

:46:25.:46:27.

boards have increased by a quarter over the last five years. Megan

:46:28.:46:33.

Paterson reports. Dorothy is a retired nurse with more

:46:34.:46:38.

than 20 years service in the NHS. As a nurse, she was proud of the care

:46:39.:46:44.

she provided. As a patient, she was disappointed with the handling of

:46:45.:46:48.

concerns about her treatment. Very frustrated. Nobody was listening. I

:46:49.:46:54.

thought, somebody has got to listen. I was sure that I was imagining that

:46:55.:46:59.

people could be so bad and it wasn't taken on board. I worked in

:47:00.:47:04.

psychiatry, and I was frightened that they were going to say there

:47:05.:47:09.

was something wrong with my rain. It is complaints like this that is

:47:10.:47:17.

causing concern. In his report, Jim Martin has said that complaints and

:47:18.:47:22.

delays in dealing with complaints can lead to stress for patients and

:47:23.:47:27.

their families. It seems fair litigation is a problem. For many

:47:28.:47:33.

health care professionals, the major fear is the consequence of admitting

:47:34.:47:39.

to a problem is that they will be sued. Even if they turn out not to

:47:40.:47:45.

have been negligent, it can put a huge strain on their profession.

:47:46.:47:49.

There is still a residual sense in which some people believe that they

:47:50.:47:54.

will be litigated against if they admit to something having gone

:47:55.:48:02.

wrong. That puts a barrier between openness and frankness and the

:48:03.:48:06.

apology that people are looking for. In fact, few complaints lead to

:48:07.:48:12.

financial compensation. Over the last five financial years, health

:48:13.:48:18.

boards have spent ?42.4 million in compensation, less than 1% of the

:48:19.:48:23.

overall health budget. The number of compensation claims has risen by

:48:24.:48:35.

26%, with 560 made in total. The financial compensation is not what

:48:36.:48:38.

they are looking for. They are looking for an apology, a sense that

:48:39.:48:45.

the health service act sets its responsibility and hopefully learns

:48:46.:48:48.

from whatever goes wrong. The money is there to make sure that people

:48:49.:48:53.

can survive in a comfortable way. In a statement, the Health Secretary

:48:54.:48:58.

Alex Neil said the government was committed to developing a culture of

:48:59.:49:09.

openness in the NHS. The V on planes are handled really is widely across

:49:10.:49:13.

the country. I think it does take time. The NHS is a large and

:49:14.:49:20.

bureaucratic organisation. Sometimes you will find that in particular

:49:21.:49:25.

areas, they can be EV sieve. People are pleased to see work in the area,

:49:26.:49:35.

but do not think of sharing. Staff and patients are becoming more

:49:36.:49:39.

willing to share their views on websites and forums. Complaints have

:49:40.:49:48.

to be handled at board level. It is at that level where decisions are

:49:49.:49:57.

taken about how to handle complaints. Some health boards

:49:58.:50:02.

handle complaints brilliantly, but most don't. They need to change

:50:03.:50:07.

their attitudes towards complaints and use them as learning

:50:08.:50:16.

opportunities. Dorothy hopes for forming -- hopes her former employer

:50:17.:50:28.

does not miss those opportunities. We have to acknowledge that when

:50:29.:50:33.

things go wrong for patients it can be catastrophic? Yes, if something

:50:34.:50:37.

goes wrong, they make a complaint, it is not handled well and

:50:38.:50:41.

emphasises the problem that they face. We have to recognise that and

:50:42.:50:47.

welcome the report. It is helpful in driving forward an agenda of

:50:48.:50:52.

improvement, and continuing, in the health service.

:50:53.:50:55.

There has been a rise in the complaints and compensation paid

:50:56.:50:58.

out, Richard Simpson, is that of a concern to you? We have a new system

:50:59.:51:07.

with the Patients' Right Act. It is addressing the system in a different

:51:08.:51:12.

way by having four levels. There is a system to allow compliments and to

:51:13.:51:18.

identify good practise as well as complaints. Below that there is

:51:19.:51:22.

comments where there is something minor going on, one of concerns, and

:51:23.:51:28.

only finally complaints. What is disappointing is that the ombudsman

:51:29.:51:32.

report in April had a large number of complaints not upheld. That

:51:33.:51:36.

indicates that the boards are not handling the process as well as they

:51:37.:51:41.

should be. That is because they need to actually see the patients as

:51:42.:51:47.

partners in co production, so that the patients can spot what is

:51:48.:51:51.

happening that is not good and that can be addressed. There are some

:51:52.:51:54.

boards doing that. That is the difficulty. That has

:51:55.:51:58.

been highlighted in a report that the kind of response you get from a

:51:59.:52:03.

health board depends on the area you live in? That is true. There is no

:52:04.:52:07.

point denying it. The report identified a number of strengths in

:52:08.:52:12.

a number of areas but then went on to say that must be rolled out

:52:13.:52:16.

across the country. That show it is is not an even service we are

:52:17.:52:20.

getting. But we have done many things, the Scottish Government

:52:21.:52:27.

introducing the Patients' Right Act. And the patient opinion website,

:52:28.:52:31.

that is Welsh Assembly to provide people with an opportunity to

:52:32.:52:36.

provide feedback and also with the support and the advice service

:52:37.:52:43.

through Citizens' Advice Scotland. So a lot of point of contact for

:52:44.:52:47.

feedback. But the difficulty is that if there is not the direct

:52:48.:52:51.

information about what is going on, where, and why, when we get that

:52:52.:52:56.

information they can react and hopefully properly.

:52:57.:53:01.

The point being made though is that many people want acknowledgement of

:53:02.:53:04.

something going wrong and an apology. They are not always looking

:53:05.:53:09.

for litigation but because of the fear of being sued health boards

:53:10.:53:13.

maybe don't offer that apology as quickly as they should? You are

:53:14.:53:20.

right. People want a nod and an apology. They also want to see

:53:21.:53:24.

change as a result of their complaint. So that it is better for

:53:25.:53:29.

the next patient. One final part of the jigsaw we have been discussing

:53:30.:53:33.

since 2006, that is no fault compensation. Sheila McLean has done

:53:34.:53:37.

the report to the Government. The Government have consulted on it, the

:53:38.:53:41.

results have been published. The Government must get on quickly with

:53:42.:53:46.

introducing a no fault compensation system. I hope that happens even

:53:47.:53:50.

before the end of the Parliament. That removes the fear of litigation.

:53:51.:53:55.

That is the point you were making. Once you get rid of the fear you

:53:56.:54:00.

begin to change the culture as the health professional staff and

:54:01.:54:03.

management are able to respond positively.

:54:04.:54:07.

The point that Pennie Taylor was making that those on the front line,

:54:08.:54:12.

the medics, they would like to offer the apology and move on but it is

:54:13.:54:18.

perhaps higher up the tree, the managers stopping that happening. Is

:54:19.:54:22.

that a fair point? I think it was a fair point. I have an experience of

:54:23.:54:26.

making a complaint, many years ago, I have to say. The first point of

:54:27.:54:32.

contact was whether or not a lawyer was needed. But it was not so. We

:54:33.:54:38.

were looking for it to be better for the next patient. Things have moved

:54:39.:54:43.

on but not as quickly as it should have. Work must be done. There must

:54:44.:54:48.

be a stepping back, allowing the individuals, the doctors, the

:54:49.:54:52.

nurses, to make that apology, to make it right and for the local ward

:54:53.:54:56.

managers and managers to get the chance to correct the system

:54:57.:55:00.

locally. That would be welcome. But I agree we have to make progress on

:55:01.:55:04.

making sure that litigation is not the first thing that people think

:55:05.:55:08.

about. When the Health Secretary talks

:55:09.:55:12.

about a culture of openness, how do you foster that feeling? I think it

:55:13.:55:18.

must come from the top. A problem in Parliament is that when something

:55:19.:55:23.

goes wrong, for example Lothian and the waiting times, the opposition

:55:24.:55:27.

attack, the Government responds by holding an inquiry, then people feel

:55:28.:55:32.

they are being blamed for things going wrong. It must go from the top

:55:33.:55:36.

to senior management, to not operate on a blame culture. To welcome the

:55:37.:55:43.

things being said by their staff. I am get getting correspondence from

:55:44.:55:49.

staff, even though there is a whistleblower line, I am getting

:55:50.:55:52.

complaints from staff saying that they will have to go public. There

:55:53.:55:57.

must be a change in the culture, it has to be from the top.

:55:58.:56:02.

And on the part of politicians too? Less finger pointing and less

:56:03.:56:06.

blaming from the politicians? I try to tweet to praise my health boards.

:56:07.:56:11.

Fife has introduced a system where the board gets a report on the

:56:12.:56:17.

complaint system, every board. Then an approach to where they are doing

:56:18.:56:22.

good practise and where there are concerns and they are put together,

:56:23.:56:26.

and then they can change things. I would praise that. We have to be

:56:27.:56:30.

positive where it is going well as well as negative when it is not

:56:31.:56:35.

going well. We are making progress but perhaps not quickly enough. One

:56:36.:56:41.

problems, I personally experienced in the '90s is not knowing where to

:56:42.:56:46.

go, how to go to it and what the process was. There are now lots of

:56:47.:56:51.

opportunities through the website, through Citizens' Advice Scotland

:56:52.:56:53.

and others. I think that the fact that there are

:56:54.:56:58.

now more opportunities to provide that feedback weather positive or

:56:59.:57:02.

negative is partly responsible for the increase in the number of

:57:03.:57:05.

complaints. But that is not a bad thing. If we are getting information

:57:06.:57:09.

about mistakes being made, that is how to correct them. If the local

:57:10.:57:13.

and senior managers don't know about it they cannot do anything about it.

:57:14.:57:21.

I'm sure that Richard wishes we could do it quicker, as do I.

:57:22.:57:27.

I wonder if the problem is not just confined to health boards. There are

:57:28.:57:31.

lots of organisations that are bureaucratic and have similar

:57:32.:57:37.

problems? And as we merge health and social care there are different

:57:38.:57:41.

complaint systems. Another part of the jigsaw Labour would like to see

:57:42.:57:46.

in place, we will percent vi with, we need an independent monitoring

:57:47.:57:52.

system. We have health improvements, a report has done on this but we

:57:53.:57:57.

need to do this without construction, to be able to go in,

:57:58.:58:01.

to say what is happening here. To look at it. So we feel that should

:58:02.:58:06.

apply to everything, not just the elderly, which we have been

:58:07.:58:11.

inspection system on, and the environment and the health systems

:58:12.:58:18.

but this must be beefed up, HIS, to be able to go in there and help on

:58:19.:58:22.

this one. Is that something to support? I will

:58:23.:58:29.

not redesign the entire Scottish complaints system across the

:58:30.:58:32.

Scottish system on the programme, good though it is, the programme but

:58:33.:58:36.

we need to consider much of what has been discussed. There are good

:58:37.:58:41.

suggestion, the merger of Social Services and social health is

:58:42.:58:44.

important. We have to get it right. If the complaints sector is shuffled

:58:45.:58:51.

to ensure it is a lined properly, that will be done but the basic

:58:52.:58:57.

problem is that we are doing good work but it is not across the whole

:58:58.:59:01.

country. We recognise that, we welcome the report. We will be

:59:02.:59:05.

pushing forward to ensure that people can get access to the

:59:06.:59:09.

complaints system and hopefully get a proper response when they

:59:10.:59:13.

complain. Thank you very much. This is Sunday politics, Scotland,

:59:14.:59:17.

let's cross for the news with Andrew acre.

:59:18.:59:26.

Good afternoon. Staff at the Glasgow School of Art will be assessing what

:59:27.:59:30.

can be saved over the next few days after the fire at the building.

:59:31.:59:34.

Attention is now also turning to the funding requirements for

:59:35.:59:39.

restoration. The UK government has said it will give "millions" of

:59:40.:59:42.

pounds if necessary and speaking on this programme the Culture Secretary

:59:43.:59:45.

Fiona Hyslop said the Scottish Government would make sure that "all

:59:46.:59:48.

that needs to be done will be done". The Danish Foreign Minister has told

:59:49.:59:52.

the BBC that an independent Scotland would have to "deliver on certain

:59:53.:59:55.

criteria" to join the European Union. Speaking to BBC Radio Four's

:59:56.:59:58.

the "World this Weekend", Martin Lidegaard spoke about the Copehagen

:59:59.:00:00.

criteria, which includes meeting the aims of political, economic and

:00:01.:00:04.

monetary union. Better Together claims it "blows out of the water"

:00:05.:00:07.

the suggestion that getting back into the EU would be "plain

:00:08.:00:12.

sailing". The Scottish Government say Scotland ALREADY meets all the

:00:13.:00:15.

requirements for membership outlined in the Copenhagen criteria. An

:00:16.:00:24.

ambitious plan to work out who owns every part of Scotland is to be

:00:25.:00:27.

completed in ten years, according to the Environment Minister. A mapping

:00:28.:00:31.

project has been announced, days after a group published a report on

:00:32.:00:35.

land reform. 62 recommendations have been set

:00:36.:00:38.

out, among the suggestions, it called for a law to limit how much

:00:39.:00:47.

land any single person can own. Finally, Paolo Nuttini and Katy

:00:48.:00:56.

Perry are to head Radio 1's Big Weekend.

:00:57.:01:03.

There have been performances by Cold Play andEd Sheeran.

:01:04.:01:08.

Here is the weather. After a cloudy morning there are

:01:09.:01:13.

sunny spells in the afternoon. But with the heavy showers, later they

:01:14.:01:20.

could be slow moving with a risk of thunder and hail. Cooler in the east

:01:21.:01:26.

with the on shore breeze. During the evening, the showers stay with us.

:01:27.:01:30.

Drier conditions around it and the patchy mist and fog forming too,

:01:31.:01:36.

continuing with the lighter winds. Now back to Gary.

:01:37.:01:40.

Thank you. Dwindling congregations and a more

:01:41.:01:43.

secular society has made the voice of the kirk minister from the pulpit

:01:44.:01:46.

far quieter. The Church of Scotland has seen its role on the national

:01:47.:01:50.

stage diminish. However, the debate on independence has given the kirk

:01:51.:01:54.

the opportunity to once again get involved in serious constitutional

:01:55.:01:57.

debate - as it also considers what its position might be if there's a

:01:58.:02:05.

yes vote. Here is Andrew Kerr. Kirk and state, the Monarch's

:02:06.:02:11.

representative Government and clergy came together at this year's general

:02:12.:02:18.

assembly. In church speak, respectful dialogue on independence.

:02:19.:02:23.

Douglas Alexander put the case for the union.

:02:24.:02:26.

Reverend Doctor Doug Gay argued for a "yes" vote. Commissioners also had

:02:27.:02:29.

their say. I and my fellow Church of Scotland

:02:30.:02:35.

members can unite with the Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and

:02:36.:02:40.

look forward to an independent Scotland without sectarianism. An

:02:41.:02:43.

independent Scotland where all are valued. I think independence is an

:02:44.:02:48.

allusion to social change. I look forward to the debate being over,

:02:49.:02:52.

resolved and then continuing conversation about how we bring

:02:53.:02:54.

about the social change for everybody in these islands that I

:02:55.:02:59.

think unites us and we all so desperately want to see.

:03:00.:03:03.

One argues that the Kirk could benefit from the end of the union.

:03:04.:03:08.

The role of the Kirk in an independent Scotland could be

:03:09.:03:10.

considerable. I don't think it is something that

:03:11.:03:16.

they should be fearful of or see in diminishing their ability about the

:03:17.:03:19.

organisation. I think that the spotlight would be bigger on the

:03:20.:03:23.

Church of Scotland. But the outgoing moderator wanted

:03:24.:03:27.

clarity in the Kirk's position if there is independence, wary of a

:03:28.:03:31.

secular, written constitution. I would like some kind of assurance,

:03:32.:03:37.

ago the assurance has been in word form from various politicians, about

:03:38.:03:43.

the future of not only our national church but indeed all religious

:03:44.:03:49.

groups, about the place of religion and faith groups in a Scotland. If

:03:50.:03:56.

we do have a "yes" vote, if we have a written constitution.

:03:57.:03:59.

The Scottish Government say in the white paper, that they propose no

:04:00.:04:04.

change to the legal status and churches will be fundmental in the

:04:05.:04:08.

process of drafting a constitution. A report about the general assembly

:04:09.:04:14.

is not complete without the shot of John Knoxx standing outside where

:04:15.:04:18.

the assembly has been meeting. A man no stranger to debathe and

:04:19.:04:21.

controversy about the future of the Kirk. The leader of the Protestant

:04:22.:04:28.

reformation in Scotland helped mould a national church in more turbulent

:04:29.:04:34.

times than we do now. In modern Scotland, the religious ideas are

:04:35.:04:44.

changing. Professor Tom Define -- Devine has been exploring these.

:04:45.:04:53.

We have seen a complete met more foe sips. A change. The data that I have

:04:54.:04:59.

is from 2012 in relation to attitudes towards independence, that

:05:00.:05:03.

has been coming up at that time. 30% of the sample question of roam an

:05:04.:05:09.

Catholics favoured independence. But interestingly as well, only 16% of

:05:10.:05:19.

Roman Catholics interviewed were in any sense worried about the

:05:20.:05:30.

consequences of independence. Back at the assembly, the moderator was

:05:31.:05:33.

concerned about the prospect of division after the referendum. What

:05:34.:05:37.

ever happens, the Kirk will meet here again next year.

:05:38.:05:48.

I'm now joined in the studio by the Reverend Doctor Doug Gay who was

:05:49.:05:50.

supporting independence at the Assembly this week and, from

:05:51.:05:53.

Edinburgh, I'm joined by the Reverend Ewan Aitken. A former

:05:54.:05:56.

Labour councillor in the city, he's a supporter of the union.

:05:57.:06:02.

In having this debate this week, is the church leading on this issue, or

:06:03.:06:07.

is it following? I think the church is taking part, which is what it

:06:08.:06:13.

should be doing. I think some people are sometimes suspicious of the

:06:14.:06:18.

Kirk, that it is trying to be a dominant or domineering voice in

:06:19.:06:22.

Scottish culture. What we did on Tuesday was build a dialogue. We

:06:23.:06:27.

have been trying to say that our voices and all voice as the Kirk

:06:28.:06:30.

matters in this debate, but it matters alongside a range of other

:06:31.:06:38.

voices. We want to play our part. That seems a bit of a change. On

:06:39.:06:43.

other issues, the church has seen itself as being in a position where

:06:44.:06:54.

it should be leading? Yes, but this is about how we organise society.

:06:55.:07:01.

This is how to create spaces for that conversation can happen. In the

:07:02.:07:06.

end, it is not the church that has a vote, it is about the people having

:07:07.:07:15.

a vote. That is why we have run events across the country where we

:07:16.:07:19.

have got people to have a dialogue about the values that make a society

:07:20.:07:22.

before getting to the point of voting. And it is the capacity for

:07:23.:07:30.

making those type of spaces that has met the church made a very different

:07:31.:07:35.

type of contribution. If there is a yes vote, what sort of role do you

:07:36.:07:39.

see the Kirk playing? I think the Kirk would continue to play an

:07:40.:07:47.

important role, but the Kirk is a very democratic institution, it

:07:48.:07:51.

values democracy in its own structures and in Scotland. It is

:07:52.:08:02.

not wanting to impose itself. Do you share those reservations that we

:08:03.:08:07.

heard about the potential for a more secular society after a yes vote?

:08:08.:08:16.

Scotland is becoming a more secular society. But I am relaxed about

:08:17.:08:23.

that. I think that if there is a vote for independence, there will be

:08:24.:08:28.

a constitutional convention and the church and other faith traditions

:08:29.:08:33.

will play there on that. What we are looking for is a democratic

:08:34.:08:38.

solution. We support the democratic process. How do you view this

:08:39.:08:44.

argument that an independent Scotland would be more in tune with

:08:45.:08:49.

the values of the Kirk than perhaps the Westminster government? That is

:08:50.:08:56.

a dangerous manifestation of an argument that Scotland is better and

:08:57.:09:02.

fairer than England. I am unconvinced by that. It may be

:09:03.:09:10.

better and fairer than under the Tories, but that is not balanced

:09:11.:09:16.

argument. The church plays a role around Britain as a catalyst for

:09:17.:09:21.

building communities where people look after each other. I think that

:09:22.:09:28.

is more important than some of the other issues. Has this issue being

:09:29.:09:38.

overplayed when people are asked for their attitudes on social and

:09:39.:09:43.

political issues, they are not hugely at odds with people elsewhere

:09:44.:09:50.

in the UK. My argument is not that Scots are better people than anyone

:09:51.:10:00.

else. We have a unique opportunity to go on a journey of reform. We

:10:01.:10:05.

have very similar issues for a more just and equal Scotland. I believe

:10:06.:10:14.

that only independence offers us the level of self determination to push

:10:15.:10:19.

towards that. The moderator is talking about a service of

:10:20.:10:23.

reconciliation after the vote in September. Is that something that is

:10:24.:10:28.

needed? Do you get a sense that this debate is that divisive? It is going

:10:29.:10:41.

to be close which means that unlike other occasions there has been a

:10:42.:10:45.

huge movement one way or other, there will be a sense of division

:10:46.:10:50.

and people will feel they campaigned long and hard and not got what they

:10:51.:10:59.

hoped for. In a sense, it is not saying... We went on a journey to

:11:00.:11:06.

make a decision, we need to say that we take all those emotions and

:11:07.:11:10.

energies back into a place of unity. I think that is why the

:11:11.:11:14.

church wants to do that, to make sure we are quick about that, we do

:11:15.:11:18.

not let any potential division fester for too long and really see,

:11:19.:11:24.

let's work on this and whatever the journey is that we are alone. What

:11:25.:11:32.

do you think? I think some people have suggested that the new

:11:33.:11:35.

moderator has been overstating the degree of conflict or division that

:11:36.:11:40.

there will be. I do not think this was his aim at all. It has been a

:11:41.:11:45.

divisive contest and one of the things that concerns me is that

:11:46.:11:49.

often relationships between the SNP, the party I support, and the

:11:50.:11:55.

Labour Party have been better, but we are friends and we have a

:11:56.:12:00.

respectful dialogue about this. A service of reconciliation is in that

:12:01.:12:11.

spirit. Is you can also write -- Is Ewan also right that divisions will

:12:12.:12:19.

be hard to heal if the result is close? I think some people will feel

:12:20.:12:24.

jubilate, others will be disappointed. -- jubilant. We are

:12:25.:12:31.

seeing that what ever the result, they will have to unite and go

:12:32.:12:33.

forward and seek the common good of Scotland. Should there have been a

:12:34.:12:39.

vote this week to clear things up for people? No, there should not.

:12:40.:12:44.

The place for the vote is on the ballot box. That is right and

:12:45.:12:57.

proper. Constantly forcing people into corners creates division. In

:12:58.:13:06.

other parts of life, we take time to make big decisions. The time we have

:13:07.:13:13.

got up until the September vote, that will make for a better

:13:14.:13:17.

conversation and make less likelihood of huge division at the

:13:18.:13:23.

point of the vote. Do you think the debate this week changed anybody's

:13:24.:13:29.

mind? I obviously hope it did. I hope that some people were more

:13:30.:13:33.

convinced about the case for independence. I think it is

:13:34.:13:39.

important we have good conversations about this. There have been lots of

:13:40.:13:47.

conversations about the type of Scotland we want to live in. Thank

:13:48.:13:52.

you. That's all from the us this week.

:13:53.:13:56.

The programme isn't on next week, so we'll be back at the same time on

:13:57.:13:59.

Sunday June eighth. Goodbye.

:14:00.:14:03.

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