08/06/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


08/06/2014

Andrew Neil and Gary Robertson with the latest political news and debate, including an interview with Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:37.

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior cabinet ministers

:00:38.:00:40.

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

:00:41.:00:42.

Michael Gove makes his apologies, but not to Theresa May - and it is

:00:43.:00:46.

her special advisor that has to resign.

:00:47.:00:48.

We will talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

:00:49.:00:51.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

:00:52.:00:54.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg federalist

:00:55.:00:56.

Jean-Claude Juncker, but could the arch Europhile yet get the top job?

:00:57.:01:00.

And we will find out why this political party is celebrating

:01:01.:01:03.

with a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP

:01:04.:01:06.

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...

:01:07.:01:26.

Former Labour cabinet minister John Reid makes his first speech

:01:27.:01:28.

for the Better Together campaign. He will be on live, to tell us

:01:29.:01:32.

why it has taken him so long to enter the debate.

:01:33.:01:47.

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

:01:48.:01:49.

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

:01:50.:01:52.

This morning's political news is dominated

:01:53.:01:57.

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

:01:58.:01:59.

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

:02:00.:02:03.

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

:02:04.:02:06.

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

:02:07.:02:12.

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham,

:02:13.:02:16.

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

:02:17.:02:20.

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

:02:21.:02:26.

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

:02:27.:02:29.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

:02:30.:02:33.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

:02:34.:02:35.

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

:02:36.:02:38.

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

:02:39.:02:45.

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

:02:46.:02:52.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

:02:53.:02:55.

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,

:02:56.:03:00.

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

:03:01.:03:05.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

:03:06.:03:08.

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

:03:09.:03:11.

There will be discipline in the Government.

:03:12.:03:13.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

:03:14.:03:18.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that's

:03:19.:03:24.

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

:03:25.:03:43.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

:03:44.:03:54.

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

:03:55.:04:01.

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

:04:02.:04:08.

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

:04:09.:04:13.

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

:04:14.:04:24.

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

:04:25.:04:27.

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

:04:28.:04:32.

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

:04:33.:04:39.

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

:04:40.:04:43.

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

:04:44.:04:50.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

:04:51.:04:55.

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

:04:56.:05:00.

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

:05:01.:05:05.

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

:05:06.:05:10.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

:05:11.:05:16.

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

:05:17.:05:22.

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

:05:23.:05:27.

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

:05:28.:05:31.

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

:05:32.:05:36.

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

:05:37.:05:40.

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

:05:41.:05:45.

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

:05:46.:05:50.

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

:05:51.:05:56.

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

:05:57.:06:04.

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

:06:05.:06:14.

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

:06:15.:06:18.

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

:06:19.:06:26.

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

:06:27.:06:29.

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

:06:30.:06:35.

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

:06:36.:06:41.

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

:06:42.:06:45.

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

:06:46.:06:51.

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

:06:52.:06:56.

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

:06:57.:06:57.

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

:06:58.:07:03.

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

:07:04.:07:09.

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

:07:10.:07:13.

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

:07:14.:07:20.

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

:07:21.:07:24.

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011

:07:25.:07:27.

when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

:07:28.:07:29.

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

:07:30.:07:46.

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

:07:47.:07:51.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

:07:52.:07:54.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

:07:55.:08:04.

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

:08:05.:08:10.

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

:08:11.:08:13.

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

:08:14.:08:16.

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

:08:17.:08:22.

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

:08:23.:08:27.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

:08:28.:08:30.

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

:08:31.:08:35.

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

:08:36.:08:40.

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

:08:41.:08:45.

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

:08:46.:08:48.

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

:08:49.:08:53.

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

:08:54.:09:03.

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

:09:04.:09:07.

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

:09:08.:09:13.

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

:09:14.:09:17.

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

:09:18.:09:22.

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

:09:23.:09:26.

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

:09:27.:09:32.

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

:09:33.:09:38.

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

:09:39.:09:42.

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

:09:43.:09:50.

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.

:09:51.:09:55.

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

:09:56.:10:00.

equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of

:10:01.:10:04.

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

:10:05.:10:08.

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

:10:09.:10:14.

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

:10:15.:10:21.

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

:10:22.:10:25.

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

:10:26.:10:32.

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

:10:33.:10:37.

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

:10:38.:10:42.

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

:10:43.:10:48.

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

:10:49.:10:53.

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

:10:54.:10:54.

as the BBC has been reporting on the Education. We are hearing that some

:10:55.:10:57.

of those involved in the schools were not allowed to open a free

:10:58.:11:01.

school on security grounds. They were allowed to allow one of the

:11:02.:11:04.

schools to be taken over as an academy. We have a lack of oversight

:11:05.:11:09.

and accountability in schools within Birmingham. What the Labour Party

:11:10.:11:13.

wants is a local director of school standards to make sure we challenge

:11:14.:11:22.

underperformance and make sure we get in confronting Islamic extremism

:11:23.:11:29.

when it was in power? I was speaking to Hazel blears and she was very

:11:30.:11:35.

clear about the prevent programme which they rolled out when in

:11:36.:11:43.

office. A very atomised and fragmented school system where every

:11:44.:11:51.

school is looked at from behind a desk in Whitehall and he put that

:11:52.:11:56.

together and you do have an increased risk of chances of

:11:57.:12:05.

radicalisation. You have attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. Was it

:12:06.:12:12.

the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. We are dealing

:12:13.:12:21.

with a government which has been in since 2010. The Government needs to

:12:22.:12:26.

hold the executive to account. We note the Department Michael Gove was

:12:27.:12:34.

warned by a senior and respected head teacher about fears over

:12:35.:12:38.

radicalism. What did he know and what did he act upon? We are hearing

:12:39.:12:44.

more reports of conversations about fears, about radicalisation, taking

:12:45.:12:48.

over some of the governing bodies of schools. We need to know what

:12:49.:12:55.

ministers did. Let me continue. You mention the capital to prevent

:12:56.:12:58.

strategy. Was it gross negligence for Labour to regularly consult a

:12:59.:13:08.

man who once headed a group dedicated to making Britain an

:13:09.:13:14.

Islamic state and wrote a book about schools full of Taliban style

:13:15.:13:19.

decrees. I think the events in Birmingham are enormously

:13:20.:13:25.

significant. About the nature of multiculturalism, the nature of

:13:26.:13:29.

education, the role of civic education, the role of faith

:13:30.:13:33.

schools. I will say to you this morning that Birmingham City

:13:34.:13:37.

Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party, the Department for Education were

:13:38.:13:45.

all involved in this conversation. In 2010, ministers were warned about

:13:46.:13:50.

potential radicalisation of schools and they fell to act. We need to

:13:51.:13:56.

know why, for years on, they allowed this situation to exacerbate. When

:13:57.:14:01.

you look at the record of labour and this government 's record, there are

:14:02.:14:05.

plenty of examples where both of you fail to act. Would it not be better

:14:06.:14:10.

to drop the party politics and get together to confront this problem

:14:11.:14:16.

for the sake of the children? There are a number of reports going on in

:14:17.:14:21.

Birmingham. Some are led by the city council, some by the Department for

:14:22.:14:25.

Education. Labour MPs this morning have come forward with the Bishop of

:14:26.:14:29.

Birmingham talking about faith in schools. If you have a minister

:14:30.:14:35.

failing to do their job, if you have a minister being given warnings in

:14:36.:14:39.

2010 and failing to act on them for four years, the opposition has a

:14:40.:14:42.

role to hold the executive to account. This is about the safety

:14:43.:14:48.

and standards of teaching for pupils in Birmingham schools. It is about a

:14:49.:14:51.

great education for these young people so they can succeed in a

:14:52.:14:58.

modern, multicultural Britain. Do you agree with your Shadow Cabinet

:14:59.:15:03.

colleague, Rachel Reeves, that Labour' as core voters are

:15:04.:15:10.

abandoning the party? She was building on what Ed said the day

:15:11.:15:15.

after the elections in Berwick. We have to make sure those communities

:15:16.:15:19.

who we historically represent regard Labour as having a successful

:15:20.:15:23.

message for them. I am passionate about making sure we have great

:15:24.:15:27.

vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our

:15:28.:15:33.

schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling

:15:34.:15:39.

booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.

:15:40.:15:48.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg

:15:49.:15:52.

- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'

:15:53.:15:55.

because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president

:15:56.:15:57.

Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from

:15:58.:16:05.

the 80s who cannot solve the problems of the next five years'.

:16:06.:16:08.

But with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr

:16:09.:16:10.

Juncker, it's not a dead cert that Mr Cameron can stop his appointment.

:16:11.:16:14.

This is what he had to say at the G7 summit earlier this week:

:16:15.:16:19.

It is important that we have people running the institutions of Europe

:16:20.:16:25.

who understand the need for change and reform. I would argue that view

:16:26.:16:29.

is widely shared amongst other heads of government and heads of state in

:16:30.:16:34.

the European Union. I am clear what I want to achieve for Britain's

:16:35.:16:40.

future, to secure Britain's placed in a reformed European Union and I

:16:41.:16:43.

have a strategy for delivering that, a strategy for dealing with an

:16:44.:16:47.

issue which I think if we walk away from it would see Britain drift

:16:48.:16:48.

towards the exits. We've been joined from Berlin

:16:49.:16:50.

by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is a senior figure in the EPP - that's

:16:51.:16:54.

the party backing Mr Juncker. He's also Chairman of the Union

:16:55.:16:57.

of European Federalists. And in our Newcastle newsroom is

:16:58.:17:02.

the former Conservative MEP Martin Callanan who until last month led

:17:03.:17:05.

the European Conservatives and Reformists group in Brussels.

:17:06.:17:09.

Welcome to you both. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary,

:17:10.:17:24.

they don't want Mr Junker, the new Italian Prime Minister doesn't look

:17:25.:17:26.

keen either, should he bow out gracefully? First of all, he wants

:17:27.:17:33.

to have Mr Junker but he wants to have his conditions. Will he become

:17:34.:17:39.

president of the European Council, a high representative? It is a

:17:40.:17:46.

discussion to be had in the next three or four weeks until the

:17:47.:17:53.

European Parliament can elect the president of the European Council

:17:54.:17:55.

after the proposal of the European Council, which has to be done after

:17:56.:18:02.

consultation with the Parliament in the light of the European elections

:18:03.:18:08.

and by a majority vote. If not Mr Junker, then who? There are many

:18:09.:18:13.

available candidates, I am not going to mention them in front of someone

:18:14.:18:19.

so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us one name that you would prefer? The

:18:20.:18:24.

prime Minister of Sweden, Christine Lagarde, the minister from

:18:25.:18:30.

Lithuania, these are people who have a record of old reform. Junker is

:18:31.:18:39.

the ultimate Europe insider. We need radical inform. We need to respond

:18:40.:18:45.

to the message the electorate gave us in the elections -- radical

:18:46.:18:50.

reform. Junker said he had to lie in public, he allowed the security

:18:51.:18:54.

services to conduct a dirty tricks campaign against his opponent. This

:18:55.:18:57.

is not who we want leading the European Commission. Elmar Brok,

:18:58.:19:02.

since the European voters have sent a message to the parliament that

:19:03.:19:05.

they are not happy with the status quo, why would you want a man who is

:19:06.:19:12.

synonymous with the status quo? First of all what Martin has said is

:19:13.:19:18.

wrong. He has not done tricks against his opponents. He was very

:19:19.:19:28.

clear on that. He is also the man who was always for changes. He made

:19:29.:19:34.

dramatic changes as head of the Euro group, came out of the economic

:19:35.:19:38.

crisis which was a result of the financial crisis, made politics

:19:39.:19:43.

possible, to stop this incredible financial sector influence of our

:19:44.:19:47.

states. I believe he is a man who works on the programme which Mrs

:19:48.:19:51.

Merkel and others have decided in Dublin, for the reform of the

:19:52.:19:56.

European Union, less government. But we need Europe more and he is not a

:19:57.:20:00.

man from the 80s. He is a man of this century and in this century he

:20:01.:20:05.

made his own policy. He is the winner of the European elections, he

:20:06.:20:08.

has a majority will stop Mrs LANguard is not running because she

:20:09.:20:13.

knows she will not get the majority in the European Parliament. --

:20:14.:20:21.

Christine Lagarde is not running. It is the Council of minister is that

:20:22.:20:26.

decides. No, the European Parliament has the final word. The European

:20:27.:20:31.

Council can make a proposal by majority in the light of the

:20:32.:20:34.

European elections after consultation with the European

:20:35.:20:38.

Parliament. The council cannot get a candidate against the will of the

:20:39.:20:42.

European Parliament. Mr Junker has a majority in the European Parliament.

:20:43.:20:48.

Theoretically he is right, the Parliament has do vote on the

:20:49.:20:52.

candidates proposed by the council. I want to challenge the view that

:20:53.:20:55.

somehow he won the European elections. There is no provision for

:20:56.:21:00.

Jean Claude Junker to stand in the elections. He is saying that the EEP

:21:01.:21:05.

party got the most number of seats in the Parliament but none of the

:21:06.:21:08.

electorate knew they were taking part in this election. How many

:21:09.:21:12.

people who voted Labour in the United Kingdom realised that their

:21:13.:21:17.

vote would count towards a German socialist to be a candidate for the

:21:18.:21:21.

commission of presidency is a nonsensical proposal. The elections

:21:22.:21:27.

were 28 individual elections with hundreds of parties across Europe.

:21:28.:21:30.

To try to claim there is a democratic mandate for somebody

:21:31.:21:33.

nobody has heard from Luxembourg to take over the commission is a

:21:34.:21:44.

nonsense. People should know him, if I should say that ironically.

:21:45.:21:53.

Newspapers talking about members of the family of his wife with Nazi

:21:54.:22:00.

links... What is the answer to Martin Callinan's point? I think it

:22:01.:22:06.

is clear that British Conservatives have no candidate because they are

:22:07.:22:11.

not a broad European family, they have not impacted on the selection

:22:12.:22:16.

of top candidates but it is a form of isolation of the British Tory

:22:17.:22:22.

Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr Junker is appointed it could lead to

:22:23.:22:26.

Britain drifting towards the EU exit, is that credible? Is it

:22:27.:22:32.

melodramatic? It is true that we want to renegotiate the

:22:33.:22:34.

relationship. We want some serious reform in Europe so the people who

:22:35.:22:39.

vote in a referendum will be able to vote to stay in if that is what they

:22:40.:22:44.

want. We need a bold reformer, somebody prepared to engage. That is

:22:45.:22:52.

not anti the interests of the UK. We need to recognise there is a problem

:22:53.:22:54.

with public perception of the European Union. Elmar Brok is proud

:22:55.:22:57.

to be one of the last bastions of federalism that that is not where

:22:58.:23:01.

most of the public opinion is in Europe. I understand why he wants

:23:02.:23:05.

his man installed but we need to take into account the message of the

:23:06.:23:13.

letter -- the electorate. 25% of the publishing of France were prepared

:23:14.:23:16.

to vote for an openly racist party. We can't just ignore the signal that

:23:17.:23:25.

the electorate were sending us. If enthusiasm for federalism was at an

:23:26.:23:28.

all-time low, it would be a slap in the face for the voters of Europe to

:23:29.:23:32.

have a federalist as the president, would it not? 70, 80% of the members

:23:33.:23:39.

of the European Parliament, selected by their people, are pro-Europeans.

:23:40.:23:44.

These are the winners of the European elections. Even in France,

:23:45.:23:48.

a majority of voters have voted pro-European and that should be

:23:49.:23:52.

clear, not to make this a populist thing which is not only to do with

:23:53.:23:59.

Europe. And we want to have a Europe which is strong, the member states

:24:00.:24:09.

should do their things. We do not want to have a European centralism,

:24:10.:24:14.

we do not want a European state. This is not at stake. Let's talk

:24:15.:24:17.

about the question of better governance, let's talk about what

:24:18.:24:22.

was wrong in the past, we have to become better, to change our

:24:23.:24:26.

programme in that question. That should be the way we lead to come to

:24:27.:24:31.

positive results. Thank you for that. Before we go, there is a

:24:32.:24:37.

British commissioner that needs to be appointed to Brussels, do you

:24:38.:24:42.

like the sound of that? These are matters for the Prime Minister, I am

:24:43.:24:45.

sure he has many excellent candidates. Do you like the sound of

:24:46.:24:53.

it? Like previous British commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil

:24:54.:25:00.

clinic, I have just lost an election -- Neil Kinnock for the everybody

:25:01.:25:02.

who is asked would serve, I'm sure. Just days ago UKIP were celebrating

:25:03.:25:07.

topping the poll in the European They're claiming they'd have had two

:25:08.:25:10.

more MEPs and the Greens two fewer had another

:25:11.:25:17.

party not confused the electorate. What's more UKIP say it's

:25:18.:25:20.

the fault of the body which was set up to oversee

:25:21.:25:22.

elections - the Electoral Commission This is a party celebrating success

:25:23.:25:37.

at the European elections. They didn't win a single MEP but

:25:38.:25:43.

nationally polled 250,000 votes. They are an independence from

:25:44.:25:47.

Europe, mostly people who were once in UKIP, and that is rather the

:25:48.:25:51.

point. They may look like capers, drink like capers, sound like capers

:25:52.:26:09.

-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were

:26:10.:26:17.

displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP

:26:18.:26:21.

suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused

:26:22.:26:27.

voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are

:26:28.:26:32.

allocated in a European election under a proportional representation

:26:33.:26:36.

system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician

:26:37.:26:42.

in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been

:26:43.:26:48.

tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a

:26:49.:26:52.

region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the

:26:53.:26:59.

number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP

:27:00.:27:04.

were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the

:27:05.:27:10.

last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an

:27:11.:27:14.

independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied

:27:15.:27:18.

their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in

:27:19.:27:23.

each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can

:27:24.:27:30.

prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.

:27:31.:27:37.

UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,

:27:38.:27:40.

back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the

:27:41.:27:46.

first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to

:27:47.:27:51.

stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of

:27:52.:27:54.

votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.

:27:55.:28:00.

Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted

:28:01.:28:08.

for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as

:28:09.:28:12.

they had been intending to do -- bubbly voted for a literal Democrat

:28:13.:28:16.

-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation. In

:28:17.:28:30.

1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the

:28:31.:28:32.

Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral

:28:33.:28:36.

Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did

:28:37.:28:39.

look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a

:28:40.:28:42.

statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of

:28:43.:28:46.

which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description

:28:47.:28:51.

are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence

:28:52.:28:56.

Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely

:28:57.:29:00.

to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty

:29:01.:29:08.

conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe

:29:09.:29:12.

just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We

:29:13.:29:18.

attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo

:29:19.:29:20.

Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch

:29:21.:29:24.

member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,

:29:25.:29:31.

nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting

:29:32.:29:36.

for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The

:29:37.:29:41.

party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.

:29:42.:29:45.

The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining

:29:46.:29:50.

that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.

:29:51.:30:00.

Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.

:30:01.:30:03.

He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get

:30:04.:30:06.

And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for

:30:07.:30:10.

How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party

:30:11.:30:25.

were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly

:30:26.:30:30.

for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a

:30:31.:30:35.

purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you

:30:36.:30:47.

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the

:30:48.:30:49.

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties

:30:50.:30:52.

people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people

:30:53.:30:57.

have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled

:30:58.:31:04.

ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the

:31:05.:31:10.

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

:31:11.:31:16.

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

:31:17.:31:31.

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

:31:32.:31:38.

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

:31:39.:31:44.

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

:31:45.:31:51.

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

:31:52.:31:56.

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

:31:57.:32:00.

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

:32:01.:32:04.

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

:32:05.:32:13.

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

:32:14.:32:17.

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

:32:18.:32:24.

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

:32:25.:32:30.

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

:32:31.:32:35.

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

:32:36.:32:39.

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

:32:40.:32:44.

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

:32:45.:32:50.

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

:32:51.:32:53.

that is why our belt actually fell. Sunday Politics, where you were well

:32:54.:33:00.

represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?

:33:01.:33:09.

Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.

:33:10.:33:22.

I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had

:33:23.:33:26.

getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they

:33:27.:33:31.

voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.

:33:32.:33:36.

What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would

:33:37.:33:43.

agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral

:33:44.:33:48.

Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not

:33:49.:33:52.

confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to

:33:53.:33:59.

agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes

:34:00.:34:03.

and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the

:34:04.:34:08.

south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats

:34:09.:34:13.

into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats.

:34:14.:34:34.

right to complain about the amount of seats we have ended up with. So

:34:35.:34:38.

you have complaints about the commission? Not about the commission

:34:39.:34:46.

but I think we have to move towards a proportional system, especially in

:34:47.:34:50.

the general election. We should be looking to have 30 or 40 seats in

:34:51.:34:57.

the national legislator and we need to consider proportional

:34:58.:35:01.

representation for National Election Council do you accept the ballot

:35:02.:35:04.

paper may have a -- may have confused some people. Some people

:35:05.:35:11.

may have been worried about the rights would move of UKIP and the

:35:12.:35:17.

leadership of Nigel Farage and as a consequence he set up a separate

:35:18.:35:23.

party. That is what happens in politics, especially when they are

:35:24.:35:27.

led by demagogues, you see splitting and UKIP need to learn lessons from

:35:28.:35:33.

that. Indeed we have seen splitting by the Greens in Brighton as well.

:35:34.:35:37.

Do you have any legal redress to this? None. The legislation as it is

:35:38.:35:46.

means there is no free dress. But we do feel, and I ask Molly, she says

:35:47.:35:53.

she disagrees with everything, but it at the next election if this

:35:54.:36:02.

party are called Google party, will she then complain if they are

:36:03.:36:07.

excepted? There needs to be some level of appeal for electoral

:36:08.:36:12.

commission decisions. Without that one wonders what is going on. We

:36:13.:36:18.

have an organisation with enormous power and influence which was set up

:36:19.:36:23.

to stop this sort of thing going on as the Liberal Democrats made clear.

:36:24.:36:30.

It has failed in the Tower Hamlets and to have failed over postal

:36:31.:36:34.

votes, it has failed over everything it is supposed to do. Let me go back

:36:35.:36:40.

to the final point, should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of

:36:41.:36:45.

the Electoral Commission? You need to have an authoritative body to

:36:46.:36:50.

make decisions in this area and we have a commission. This is an

:36:51.:36:54.

outbreak of soda loser from UKIP. I am delighted I will be able to

:36:55.:37:00.

represent the people from the south-west. Should there be a right

:37:01.:37:05.

of appeal as a matter of principle? I do not think you should have a

:37:06.:37:09.

right of appeal, no. We will leave it there. You are watching Sunday

:37:10.:37:14.

Politics, we are saying goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for

:37:15.:37:19.

Sunday Politics in Scotland. Good morning and welcome to

:37:20.:37:47.

Sunday Politics Scotland. The former Home Secretary, Lord

:37:48.:37:49.

Reid, tells a referendum meeting that the measure of your support

:37:50.:37:53.

for Scotland is not waving the flag, but voting No in the country's best

:37:54.:37:57.

interests. Acting smart - the technology

:37:58.:37:59.

that will revolutionise service John Reid, the former Cabinet

:38:00.:38:01.

minister and so-called Labour "big beast", has made his first

:38:02.:38:13.

foray into the referendum debate. Speaking at a Better Together event

:38:14.:38:16.

yesterday, he accused Nationalists of denying there were any risks

:38:17.:38:19.

in voting yes to independence. In a moment, we will speak to him

:38:20.:38:22.

live and ask why he has decided now Tony Blair's troubleshooter. The Man

:38:23.:38:32.

Of Steel who is at the heart of government. Lord Reid is stepping

:38:33.:38:38.

into the referendum campaign. He has given his first speech as part of

:38:39.:38:42.

Better Together, refuting the suggestion that Scots are now are

:38:43.:38:48.

less patriotic. Let us say clearly that no side in this campaign has a

:38:49.:38:53.

monopoly on patches to them. I make that absolutely plain. -- on

:38:54.:38:59.

patriotism. It would be helpful if the First Minister made that equally

:39:00.:39:05.

plain because he is the First Minister of Scotland, not of the

:39:06.:39:11.

Scottish nationalist party. Pro-Union campaigners welcome his

:39:12.:39:14.

involvement. His refutation precedes them. Perhaps it was political skill

:39:15.:39:21.

which gained him plaudits as Home Secretary and defence secretary.

:39:22.:39:24.

However, political opponents arguing for a yes vote think he will not be

:39:25.:39:30.

an asset. John Reid is was a risk when it comes to the SNP in Scottish

:39:31.:39:38.

politics. He is a big beast, yes. He's not like Gordon Brown. I am

:39:39.:39:45.

amazed Gordon Brown has proved so positive. John Reid never plays

:39:46.:39:51.

positive. My worry, if I was in the no campaign, I would wonder if he

:39:52.:39:57.

would put a bit wrong. So a man who has fought plenty of political

:39:58.:40:00.

battles now has another one on his hands, the Better Together fight to

:40:01.:40:06.

save the union. Lord Reid is here now. The papers this morning, you

:40:07.:40:12.

are being criticised by the SNP and others in the Yes Campaign for your

:40:13.:40:17.

remarks about D-Day yesterday. They are saying you try to politicise it,

:40:18.:40:23.

what is your response? My response is it is nonsense. I am glad you

:40:24.:40:29.

mentioned it because the leader article said that the SNP's response

:40:30.:40:35.

on this was not only naive but foolish because if history has no

:40:36.:40:42.

point, then what are we to do with that? The point of history is to

:40:43.:40:48.

inform the future. As we remember, the great things we have done

:40:49.:40:53.

together as a country, the Scots, Welsh, Irish and English, the

:40:54.:40:58.

greatest of those was surely the defeat of fascism, standing alone

:40:59.:41:02.

against fascism and National Socialism and to remember that as an

:41:03.:41:09.

emotional aspect of the United Kingdom's history is perfectly

:41:10.:41:13.

legitimate. We heard you talking about Alex Salmond in the clip. You

:41:14.:41:18.

think people who want to vote no every bit as Scottish as people who

:41:19.:41:23.

want to vote. You said Alex Salmond should publicly intervene and state

:41:24.:41:33.

this. Hang on. Perhaps I have missed something, but I am not sure Alex

:41:34.:41:36.

Salmond has ever suggested that people love said they would vote no

:41:37.:41:43.

is any less Scottish. I did not say he had at that hour atmospherics out

:41:44.:41:48.

there, especially on digital media will stop those who are sending out

:41:49.:41:52.

tweets on the internet which implies that if you do not vote for

:41:53.:41:58.

separation, somehow you are less... Alex Salmond is the First Minister

:41:59.:42:02.

and he is leading this campaign. I want him to recognise the simple

:42:03.:42:07.

fact that it demeans the debate which is a crucial debate to allow

:42:08.:42:13.

the implication of innuendo that people who vote no to keep Scotland

:42:14.:42:20.

in the United Kingdom are somehow less Scottish. I'm saying plainly

:42:21.:42:25.

that is not true. What he wants him to do, make a public statement? That

:42:26.:42:29.

with the help. Along the lines of what you have just said? If it is

:42:30.:42:34.

noncontroversial, that would be helpful. People on the other side of

:42:35.:42:41.

the beastly things about nationalism all the time and nobody calls on Ed

:42:42.:42:44.

Miliband David Cameron to make at public statement. They're always

:42:45.:42:50.

calls to make public statements. You're making an issue about the

:42:51.:42:55.

simple proposition. We should not doubt the sincerity of any Scottish

:42:56.:42:59.

person or anyone who is taking part in this referendum as regards their

:43:00.:43:05.

love of Scotland. I speak as a Scotsman and somebody who has been

:43:06.:43:09.

born, bred and lived in Scotland. Somebody who has committed my life

:43:10.:43:16.

to Scotland. You would like a statement from Alex Salmond seeing

:43:17.:43:19.

which are said? Let me finish. There are many millions of people in this

:43:20.:43:25.

country who not only feel Scottish but think that the interests of

:43:26.:43:29.

Scotland are better protected by remaining inside the United

:43:30.:43:34.

Kingdom. They are every bit as patriotically those who want to vote

:43:35.:43:40.

yes. All right. The sterling rally you spoke at was organised by Better

:43:41.:43:46.

Together, would you be happy to sit sheer platform with the

:43:47.:43:48.

Conservatives on the Better Together Campaign? -- to shape our platform.

:43:49.:43:57.

Yes, I have done so before, for instance over the fight for

:43:58.:44:02.

Ravenscraig. We extended its life for years. I marched to London with

:44:03.:44:08.

people whose views I did not share, including the SNP and Tories of the

:44:09.:44:12.

time to save the Ravenscraig steelworks. If it was important

:44:13.:44:18.

enough to do just steelworks, how much more important is it for the

:44:19.:44:23.

future of our country to rise above petty personal difference and any

:44:24.:44:27.

political differences and fight for the welfare of Scotland. Gordon

:44:28.:44:34.

Brown criticised the way the Coalition Government have handled

:44:35.:44:40.

the currency this week. He said, the wave it currency argument was put by

:44:41.:44:45.

the government was given Scotland versus Britain which means we

:44:46.:44:53.

need... Is the only propaganda which comes from the Conservatives is

:44:54.:44:58.

Britain says no, there is bound to be a reaction in Scotland. I'm not

:44:59.:45:02.

going to comment on what Gordon said. Can Scotland go it alone, yes

:45:03.:45:08.

it can, doesn't have the right to do so? Yes. The question in dispute

:45:09.:45:15.

which people have to decide in September is in what conditions

:45:16.:45:18.

Scotland would be if it went down that road. In my view, in terms of

:45:19.:45:25.

the advantages of the union, economic and Vantage, economic

:45:26.:45:36.

growth, individual ad vantage and growth... In terms of separation,

:45:37.:45:41.

the risks are issued. I think the government has every right to rule

:45:42.:45:48.

any part of the United Kingdom. I am giving you my view on the Better

:45:49.:45:52.

Together Campaign. I am prepared to work with anybody over and above any

:45:53.:45:58.

personal and political differences. I do not think the public are

:45:59.:46:02.

astonished by this. I think the government would like to see

:46:03.:46:06.

politicians put aside personal differences more often. This is such

:46:07.:46:10.

a crucial issue for the future that I think all of us should get

:46:11.:46:16.

together. When Gordon Brown says the trouble with David, -- David Cameron

:46:17.:46:23.

and George Osborne, they put Scotland against Britain, you seem

:46:24.:46:27.

to be with Cameron and Osborne and disagree with Gordon Brown? I am not

:46:28.:46:34.

disagreeing with any of them. I am saying that whenever you rise above

:46:35.:46:40.

party differences and have an issue as crucial as this, you must rise

:46:41.:46:44.

above party differences, of course others will try to rise -- intervene

:46:45.:46:50.

and point out differences. On the question of the future of Scotland,

:46:51.:46:56.

there is a huge degree of agreement among political parties and among

:46:57.:47:00.

people in Scotland. You said yesterday that you did not think

:47:01.:47:03.

Better Together had done everything right. What have we done wrong? I

:47:04.:47:09.

don't think any human being does everything right or any

:47:10.:47:16.

organisation. You actually have something specific in mind? I did

:47:17.:47:21.

not have anything specific in mind. I just would not say we have

:47:22.:47:24.

everything right and we can always improve. Nobody listening to this

:47:25.:47:31.

thinks that is an outstandingly exceptional and two together, it is

:47:32.:47:36.

common sense. Do you think the Yes Campaign will win? I do not think

:47:37.:47:42.

it, but it is all was possible, in politics anything is possible. Over

:47:43.:47:47.

the next 100 days, there will be three issues which will decide this.

:47:48.:47:53.

One is economic and material advantages to being part of the UK,

:47:54.:47:58.

secondly the risk of separation, whether it is pensions, Europe, the

:47:59.:48:06.

corn -- the economy, and suddenly the emotional argument. There are

:48:07.:48:12.

many people who have emotional connections because of the history

:48:13.:48:15.

and culture and what we have done together in Britain. There is an

:48:16.:48:21.

argument of the head and an argument of the heart. Over the next few

:48:22.:48:24.

weeks I think they will come together. Let us say that is a small

:48:25.:48:33.

majority for independence, is that it, completely it. Let us say that

:48:34.:48:38.

you are right, there is no currency union despite what Alex Salmond

:48:39.:48:43.

says, there are problems with Scotland's getting into the European

:48:44.:48:48.

Union in the short-term. One year later and people are saying, we

:48:49.:48:52.

voted for this was the false perspective, will you be saying, I

:48:53.:49:00.

told you so? Is there any way back? I will not be saying that but I do

:49:01.:49:05.

not think there is any way back. Alex Salmond said this morning this

:49:06.:49:10.

is a once in a generation thing, I agree with him. But it is a

:49:11.:49:16.

everything. You would agree with that? Yes, it is a further thing.

:49:17.:49:24.

Certainly in our lifetimes. This is why it is crucial to examine the

:49:25.:49:30.

risks. That is not negative. I know Alex Salmond keeps saying do not ask

:49:31.:49:34.

about the currency, the economy because that is negative. It is not

:49:35.:49:40.

negative. We are brought up to believe look before you leap. A

:49:41.:49:45.

businessman known jazz to have risk assessment for the future. You would

:49:46.:49:49.

never set out on a journey without knowing you had the money and the

:49:50.:49:59.

transport for it. You are making car and transport analogies, what is

:50:00.:50:05.

going on? You suggest you were brought into a appeal to the male

:50:06.:50:12.

working-class voters, I do not know if that is true but they look like

:50:13.:50:16.

they would like to vote yes, so why do you think that is, given that

:50:17.:50:20.

these are people who tend to vote Labour in elections? I am not sure

:50:21.:50:27.

you are correct. The latest definitive Paul was done at the

:50:28.:50:33.

beginning of this week by your competitors television programme, it

:50:34.:50:42.

said 34% for the yes vote. You go it was 37% so there has been a

:50:43.:50:48.

reduction. I am asking specifically about male working-class voters, the

:50:49.:50:53.

other was likely to vote yes, I am dubious as to why you think that is?

:50:54.:51:01.

I think there is equal concern across all classes, both sexes, all

:51:02.:51:06.

parts of the country about the risks. The majority of people across

:51:07.:51:11.

all of those classes and every part of the country who are worried about

:51:12.:51:15.

that and think we had better stay with the best of both worlds which

:51:16.:51:19.

we have at the moment. As Scottish Parliament deciding Scottish affairs

:51:20.:51:25.

and the United Kingdom Parliament. I do not think at this stage you can

:51:26.:51:32.

make that decision for them. Thank you very much indeed.

:51:33.:51:37.

Described as world-leading by academics in San Francisco,

:51:38.:51:39.

a Glasgow-run technology project could revolutionise the way councils

:51:40.:51:42.

across the country manage services. The Glasgow Future Cities Project

:51:43.:51:44.

began in 2012. It uses hi-tech kit to help increase safety

:51:45.:51:47.

on the city's streets and open up council-held data to the public.

:51:48.:51:51.

But what has it achieved so far and how will it continue

:51:52.:51:54.

City life only big-screen. This is Glasgow 's smarter future and it is

:51:55.:52:21.

happening now. Smart city one which integrates technologies and helps

:52:22.:52:30.

best provide its services. A smart city can take some of our older

:52:31.:52:35.

thinking and produces a much more efficient and effective way of

:52:36.:52:41.

delivering services. " fought off competition from 29 other cities to

:52:42.:52:51.

highlight this technology. The using software to map and Jake the

:52:52.:52:58.

movements of people throughout the city. I think people feel a lot

:52:59.:53:04.

safer. The ball can also get around the city better because of the

:53:05.:53:08.

transport improvements. We can also see the likes of health and

:53:09.:53:16.

education benefits. Around one half of the ?24 million budget has been

:53:17.:53:23.

spent on this information centre -- CCTV cameras around the city coming

:53:24.:53:37.

together. But came and safety are not the only focus. The project is

:53:38.:53:42.

the first of its kind to open up data set to the public, sharing

:53:43.:53:49.

anonymous data online. Intended to make the council more transparent

:53:50.:53:54.

and save money on dealing with Freedom of information requests,

:53:55.:53:59.

some see changing the old church of information handling is not without

:54:00.:54:02.

its challenging. The whole project is basically sending shivers down

:54:03.:54:09.

the spine of most local authorities. It is enabling the reformation of

:54:10.:54:12.

things which happen under the bonnet with everyone else. They are trying

:54:13.:54:19.

to engage citizens to be more active to shear for the no boat the city

:54:20.:54:26.

and other citizens. We have got to the stage where we can provide tools

:54:27.:54:32.

and technology to capture technology and integrate it with what the

:54:33.:54:37.

council already holds. The approach has caught the attention of

:54:38.:54:41.

academics around the world. With the government funded period coming to

:54:42.:54:45.

an end, Private investment will be necessary for it to continue.

:54:46.:54:55.

Investment is crucial. We need to continue to raise the money to

:54:56.:55:00.

operate. Cycling will likes of claim on dealing with emergencies, things

:55:01.:55:07.

people the care about. Clearly, things like energy and

:55:08.:55:10.

communications, these are critical services. I think the freeze Future

:55:11.:55:21.

Cities Project is possibly not too helpful, because it makes people

:55:22.:55:27.

think of the science-fiction film. But I think we will see the benefit

:55:28.:55:33.

of this time. Political will and financial backing will be crucial

:55:34.:55:38.

for the next of this project, with the outcome being watched much for

:55:39.:55:51.

the rocky roads in Glasgow itself. Richard, letters look at some of the

:55:52.:55:57.

technology first. How does this work? Let us talk about intelligence

:55:58.:56:03.

streetlights, of which no that there is a fate breaking out under them,

:56:04.:56:10.

just tell it what actually happens? Every lighting column in the EEA is

:56:11.:56:15.

connected to the intimate, essentially. They can communicate

:56:16.:56:19.

with the operations centre that use. They have sensors into them. On the

:56:20.:56:29.

likes of bicycle path is, you can see that when someone is moving

:56:30.:56:35.

along it, the lighting would move up as they approach and in them and

:56:36.:56:40.

hang them, so you are not wasting energy. The question of unusual

:56:41.:56:44.

activity, if you are listening to sound or watching pictures, is there

:56:45.:56:52.

a problem? Is it just people having a good NATO or as something more

:56:53.:56:56.

serious about to develop? You can feed that information in and you can

:56:57.:57:03.

do the lights of raising the lighting any questionable activity,

:57:04.:57:06.

which could be enough to calm a situation down. So, the street lamps

:57:07.:57:11.

would await the police if this continued? Probably not that we

:57:12.:57:18.

directly, but it would let the communications centre that something

:57:19.:57:21.

unusual was going on and should maybe be looked at. Then, an

:57:22.:57:25.

appropriate response could be made. One of the big issues in Glasgow are

:57:26.:57:32.

health outcomes and one of the things which stop people walking and

:57:33.:57:36.

cycling is that they are concerned about their own safety. Things you

:57:37.:57:42.

can do to make people fear more confident using intelligent

:57:43.:57:48.

lighting, it helps the people use the city to greater advantage. It

:57:49.:57:51.

sounds great, but an obvious problem with people having had a view jinx

:57:52.:57:59.

and they are out singing and then the police suddenly all flooding. I

:58:00.:58:06.

do not think it would be as dramatic as that. I think you would raise the

:58:07.:58:12.

level of lighting, which can have a quiet in effect, but also, you would

:58:13.:58:17.

be able to notice there was something needing looking at. You do

:58:18.:58:23.

not have to scramble the police to that. You can look at the situation

:58:24.:58:28.

first. Although Glasgow is the forerunner of this, you have been

:58:29.:58:35.

involved in something similar? Yes, I have been working with local

:58:36.:58:38.

authorities in Scotland on a smaller scale we're we have been putting in

:58:39.:58:43.

technology in the local authorities to provide useful digital services,

:58:44.:58:49.

particularly with Edinburgh and Aberdeen. Sorry, to me, this is

:58:50.:58:58.

gobbledygook. If you are a citizen, what difference do you notice? You

:58:59.:59:05.

are able to use a digital mobile service which can make life in a

:59:06.:59:12.

local basis more useful. So it is an application on your phone. What does

:59:13.:59:20.

it do? Say, is on a simple level, in the likes of Aberdeen, we have a

:59:21.:59:24.

transport application that provides all up to date information about

:59:25.:59:27.

situations with local transport. Also, you may be able to see that

:59:28.:59:40.

there is also an updated service, whereby, if some of the information

:59:41.:59:44.

is wrong, a member of the public could get back in touch and the

:59:45.:59:48.

information within change. It is accessible and useful. How many

:59:49.:59:54.

areas as this now available on? We are working with for local

:59:55.:59:57.

authorities in are working with for local

:59:58.:00:01.

authorities Scotland and also with local authorities in New York. --

:00:02.:00:11.

Europe. The money for the Glasgow project comes to an end in Glasgow

:00:12.:00:16.

comes to an end in August, so what happens after that? That was

:00:17.:00:20.

essentially for the setup and development of the programmes. A key

:00:21.:00:27.

reason behind this is that this is one of four demonstrations around

:00:28.:00:34.

the United Kingdom. This comes out of the study of 29 cities about what

:00:35.:00:39.

they could deliver. If you take what will happen next, we have the

:00:40.:00:42.

Commonwealth Games, we can monitor what is happening, look at all the

:00:43.:00:47.

data from the communications centre. We will be able to see whether the

:00:48.:00:53.

use of city vehicles is more efficient. We will monitor this for

:00:54.:00:58.

some years to come. This has been built into the plans of Glasgow City

:00:59.:01:04.

Council for the future. This is how the imagine the future to be. A lot

:01:05.:01:10.

of people will be watching, I am slightly uneasy about this. We worry

:01:11.:01:16.

about security on the Internet about who might be looking in and getting

:01:17.:01:21.

information about us and know they may be worrying about walking down

:01:22.:01:25.

the street. We are talking about non-contravention none controversial

:01:26.:01:31.

public data. Think how useful data is to your life. I am able to knows

:01:32.:01:40.

whether or not a bus is going to arrive. There is a lot of data

:01:41.:01:45.

information which is really useful to the general public and the more

:01:46.:01:49.

that you use people to support their data to add value to it, the more

:01:50.:01:54.

alive it becomes and the more relevant it becomes. Things like bus

:01:55.:02:00.

timetables, they are no longer timetables in this sensitive printed

:02:01.:02:09.

on pages. You will be able to get up-to-date information to find out

:02:10.:02:11.

what has happened to your bus in the last few minutes? Yes. The London

:02:12.:02:22.

transport network data is very good in that respect, letting people know

:02:23.:02:27.

to within a couple of minutes when the underground is going to arrive.

:02:28.:02:34.

How do you see the development of this in the future? I think we could

:02:35.:02:40.

get people involved in completely transform how people move to work,

:02:41.:02:44.

home shopping works and how we could see big transformations in the likes

:02:45.:02:46.

of health care and health outcomes. You are watching Sunday Politics

:02:47.:02:49.

Scotland. Let us cross now Good afternoon. Tomorrow marks

:02:50.:02:51.

the start of the 100-day countdown On the Andrew Marr Show today

:02:52.:02:59.

First Minister Alex Salmond said referendums on the constitution were

:03:00.:03:03.

"once in a political generation" and this was the first democratic,

:03:04.:03:06.

consented opportunity to vote But speaking on this programme,

:03:07.:03:08.

the former Labour cabinet minister Lord Reid said Scots

:03:09.:03:12.

must vote against independence. One person has died in a house fire

:03:13.:03:27.

in Watten on the outskirts of Wick. Fire crews were called to the

:03:28.:03:31.

property before eight o'clock this morning, but when they

:03:32.:03:34.

arrived, the blaze had burnt out. A search is underway in Nairn for a

:03:35.:03:38.

man thought to have been swept away Police were called

:03:39.:03:42.

to the River Nairn, near the harbour of the Highlands town just before

:03:43.:03:46.

eleven o'clock. Two men were in the water, with one attempting to

:03:47.:03:50.

rescue the other, but only one man managed to get out. Search teams

:03:51.:03:53.

are now checking the coastline A list of companies who have

:03:54.:03:56.

been fined by the UK government for failing to pay the minimum wage

:03:57.:04:03.

has been published. In total 25 firms owed workers

:04:04.:04:06.

more than ?43,000 in arrears. Cargilfield School in

:04:07.:04:09.

Edinburgh left a worker almost ?4,000 out of pocket.

:04:10.:04:11.

Ministers say they have quadrupled financial penalties and plan

:04:12.:04:13.

to change the law Good afternoon. There will be some

:04:14.:04:34.

showers this afternoon, but also some brighter weather. The showers

:04:35.:04:42.

could be heavy at times, possibly thundery at times. But I think they

:04:43.:04:45.

will be mainly a feature on the higher ground.

:04:46.:04:54.

It will feel very one today, with high temperatures of 22 degrees

:04:55.:04:58.

Celsius. That is it for now, I will

:04:59.:04:59.

hand you back to Gordon. Thanks, Andrew. Now, in a moment,

:05:00.:05:05.

we will be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,

:05:06.:05:08.

let us take a look back at The Conservatives unveiled their

:05:09.:05:24.

plans for further revolution in the event of a

:05:25.:05:25.

The Conservatives unveiled their plans for further normal vote in the

:05:26.:05:33.

independence referendum. Women who received injuries after getting

:05:34.:05:42.

breast implants have been petitioning the Scottish Parliament.

:05:43.:05:46.

An enquiry has been launched into what went wrong with the Edinburgh

:05:47.:05:51.

trams project. The United Kingdom has been a next ordinary partner to

:05:52.:05:56.

others. From the outside at least, it looks as if things have worked

:05:57.:06:08.

very well. And the garment been criticised for using figures of

:06:09.:06:12.

legal to criticised for using figures of

:06:13.:06:16.

legal emphasise the stands against independence. The Scottish National

:06:17.:06:21.

party called it childish and the company itself has forced the

:06:22.:06:28.

government to take down the advert because of a breach of copyright.

:06:29.:06:35.

Joining me now are the former Labour MSP Pauline McNeill and Andrew

:06:36.:06:39.

Wilson, who is a newspaper columnist and a former SNP MSP.

:06:40.:06:42.

Joining me now are the former Labour MSP Pauline McNeill and

:06:43.:06:54.

Are you quaking about what John Reid said. I do not think it plays into

:06:55.:07:05.

the modern world to relate D-Day to the Olympics. His second point was a

:07:06.:07:11.

reasonable one, which was that no one has a monopoly on patriotism.

:07:12.:07:16.

You can vote no and failed Scottish and you can celebrate 200 years of

:07:17.:07:23.

British heritage and vote yes. 200,000 Irish soldiers who served in

:07:24.:07:27.

the first wall for I know less British than those who were serving.

:07:28.:07:31.

They were able to become an independent country. -- in the First

:07:32.:07:37.

World War. We should look forward. What do you make of this mini row?

:07:38.:07:47.

Regarding D-Day, John Reid's central point what you can still vote no and

:07:48.:07:52.

BP tree or two. Labour have been firing on all cylinders this week.

:07:53.:07:57.

-- and BP tree or ticks. Rover has been very positive. John Reid has

:07:58.:08:08.

given us his point of view. I do jumping with joy to see John Reid

:08:09.:08:14.

get involved? I think he has an appeal to voters. There was talk

:08:15.:08:22.

that he was brought in for male working-class voters, that makes

:08:23.:08:30.

sense, doesn't it? I'll Labour's big hitters are getting involved. It is

:08:31.:08:36.

100 days or so. There is nothing new for John Reid having a speech at a

:08:37.:08:43.

rally. The central message was that no side can claim patriotism for

:08:44.:08:48.

whichever way you vote. It was an important message. John Reid is

:08:49.:08:54.

appealing to a certain section of voters. People are voting no offer

:08:55.:09:00.

all sorts of reasons. Historical reasons and identity questions are

:09:01.:09:04.

important for the no campaign. Alistair Darling is dealing with the

:09:05.:09:09.

business case and Gordon Brown was dealing with social justice this

:09:10.:09:16.

week. Now, the Sunday Herald said there is 100 days to go until the

:09:17.:09:22.

referendum. Andrew Wilson, your side of the argument needs something

:09:23.:09:27.

transformational, doesn't it? What could that be? I think people are

:09:28.:09:33.

now beginning to make their minds up. There is a host of people who

:09:34.:09:40.

are undecided who are being focused. It is a personal choice. Do we trust

:09:41.:09:45.

ourselves to do a better job? When you look at the history of

:09:46.:09:49.

international endeavour, did we approve of Lord Reid and his

:09:50.:09:53.

government when we went into Iraq for instance? Do you believe the Yes

:09:54.:09:57.

Campaign can win by what you're talking about, by undecided people

:09:58.:10:04.

changing their minds? Do you think the Yes Campaign itself has come up

:10:05.:10:08.

with something different? No, I think the Yes Campaign has to stick

:10:09.:10:14.

to being positive and ambitious for their country. We have an argument

:10:15.:10:17.

which says Scotland cannot and another which says Scotland can. It

:10:18.:10:22.

is about our personal contribution to the future, we will be better

:10:23.:10:28.

placed to govern ourselves. You are lucky if the vote in London reflects

:10:29.:10:35.

the vote in Scotland. This is true of social welfare reform,

:10:36.:10:37.

strengthening the economy, as I said. You would not advise the Yes

:10:38.:10:44.

Campaign to do anything different? No, I think the focus remains as it

:10:45.:10:50.

is. Stay positive. Draw comparisons with the reality of life in Britain

:10:51.:10:57.

as it is just now. It does not feel, from inside Scotland, that

:10:58.:11:01.

everything is OK. That is too much needing fixed. The question is,

:11:02.:11:08.

what's to be fixed, do we fix it ourselves let others do so? Do you

:11:09.:11:12.

think the Better Together Campaign should change? I think Labour have

:11:13.:11:20.

to take a more forward role and that is what you are now seeing for the

:11:21.:11:25.

no campaign. That is what happened. We have 100 days to go. You want

:11:26.:11:31.

more Labour Party, less Better Together? Yes. We have had Gordon

:11:32.:11:37.

Brown this week and that has been very important for Labour voters who

:11:38.:11:42.

are undecided. I think there is recognised by Better Together. You

:11:43.:11:47.

clearly recognise that your side of the argument has a problem with

:11:48.:11:53.

Labour voters. John Reid did not want to recognise that. It is male

:11:54.:11:59.

working-class in certain regions... In the same way that the Yes

:12:00.:12:02.

Campaign has a problem with women voters. They need to address the

:12:03.:12:10.

issue of women voters. The reasons why women might want to vote yes.

:12:11.:12:17.

How do you address that problem about male working-class voters? Do

:12:18.:12:20.

you just get John Reid to go and tell them or what? We need to get

:12:21.:12:27.

down to the nitty-gritty of the argument and the fact that people

:12:28.:12:31.

want to have about the difference between voting yes and no. With a

:12:32.:12:37.

hundred days to go, Jim Sillars said today this campaign will be lost or

:12:38.:12:42.

won on the doorsteps and in the working-class communities. I agree

:12:43.:12:47.

with that. It is also about the presentation of the arguments. Do

:12:48.:12:55.

you agree with that? That it will be won or lost in working-class areas?

:12:56.:13:01.

One of the modern phenomena of politics is that they do not vote in

:13:02.:13:05.

the numbers that they should. If they do in this referendum, if they

:13:06.:13:09.

take this opportunity to vote, it could be transformational. There is

:13:10.:13:15.

a huge opportunity for a lot of people. But is there a particular

:13:16.:13:21.

opportunity in working-class areas for the Yes Campaign? That is what I

:13:22.:13:26.

was trying to see, where the turnout is not what we would want it to be

:13:27.:13:32.

in normal elections, there is a great opportunity for reform and

:13:33.:13:36.

change and making the system of how we govern ourselves better. That is

:13:37.:13:41.

the core message. Either things are done to you or you do them

:13:42.:13:48.

yourselves. Much better to do it yourself in a time of crisis like

:13:49.:13:53.

this. Sorry to stop you. We have to leave it there. That's all from us

:13:54.:13:55.

this week. Goodbye.

:13:56.:14:02.

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