15/06/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


15/06/2014

With Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer. James Rubin, Mark Malloch-Brown and Bayan Rahman debate the Iraq crisis and Jackie Baillie and Blair Jenkins discuss Scottish independence.


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Politics. The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been

:00:46.:00:49.

slowed. But the country now faces a defect or partition. Watching

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Britain, the USA and Europe be doing, if anything?

:00:56.:00:59.

It has been a big week in the Scottish referendum. Even the Pope

:01:00.:01:04.

had a say. But has the tone of the debate will come to downright nasty?

:01:05.:01:12.

Can I swap Ed Miliband four attempts Aaron? We will be asking if any of

:01:13.:01:20.

the parties are making last-minute substitutions before the election.

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Coming up in Sunday Politics Scotland:

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The former SNP leader Gordon Wilson says it's time to challenge

:01:26.:01:28.

Westminster about its policies in the event of a No vote.

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He'll join us live to explain what he means.

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The Sunni Islamist army known as ISIS is now in control

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of huge swathes of northern and western Iraq, including

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Until the weekend they looked like advancing relentlessly

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on Baghdad but that offensive has now been slowed or even halted

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The Iraqi army and its Shia milita allies vow that

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Baghdad will not be taken and that a counter-attack will soon begin.

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Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has to do something to

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reverse the humiliation of recent days, which saw

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his US-trained and equipped Iraqi army, which outnumbered

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the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or surrender when confronted by ISIS.

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The conflict has already created a humanitarian crisis, with hundreds

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The Kurds have used the conflict to consolidate their hold on their

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autonomous area in the north, parts of the west and the north are in the

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grip of ISIS control and the Shias are hunkering down in the east.

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All of which makes a three-way partition a real possibility with

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The US is moving another of its massive aircraft carrier

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battlefleets to the Gulf, though the White House shows no

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While Iran says it's ready to help its Shia allies

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and there are unconfoirmed reports that its revolutionary guard has

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Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban.

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Let's start with some basics. Who are ISIS and why are they

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controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS is an extremist militant jihad

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organisation and they have a pure Islamic concept based on 14th

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century history and jurisprudence. What they want to do is correct --

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create this caliphate that do not recognise colonial boundaries so it

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involves Syria and Iraq, and they could go down to Lebanon and

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Palestine, that is all fair game as far as they are concerned. And they

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have this strict interpretation of Islam. The more interesting question

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is why have semi-Sunni Muslims, along with them, these are precisely

:03:49.:03:55.

the sort of people who in 2006, 2007, tribal leaders in the west of

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the country rose up against. It was called the Awakening and the

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Americans in power did and bankrolled it. These people turned

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against them and admired them in large numbers, so why do they have

:04:11.:04:13.

so many Sunni Muslims on their side? We hear about people going

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back to Mosul. I think the answer is a perception

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back to Mosul. I think the answer that the current government is

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ruling in sectarian interests, Shia Muslim interest, and the Sunni

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Muslims want self-determination and this is their best bet.

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Muslims want self-determination and this is their Let me put up this map

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to find out where we are going. We can see Mosul in the north, they

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took that, and then they started, South, reports that the crit was

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involved -- to grit -- to grit. What is the situation on the ground now?

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We are in what you might call a consolidation or strategic pause as

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American called it in 2003. ISIS are trying to consolidate their power in

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Mosul, and now they have this major city and they are trying to show

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they can run the city and get the power going, etc. Their southernmost

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forces, that is a gorilla army, guys in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal

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with serious opposition. They would like to get the tanks and other

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things into action but that could take weeks for them to be able to do

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it. The government side is that they have counter-attacked, but it will

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take a little while before these newly raised militia and other task

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forces, call them what you will, can effectively counter-attacked. But

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that is what will happen in the next week or two. We will see

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increasingly large and serious government counter-attacked trying

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to retake those places, and I fear a really difficult, bloody Syrian

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style street by street battle for some of these urban centres. I would

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like to have a look at this map, because the Kurds, as I mentioned,

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they are consolidating their position in the autonomous region in

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the north. The Islamist are taking over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim

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West. And of course the Shia Muslim are still dominant in control of

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Baghdad and in parts of the south and east. Back to me looks like the

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beginnings of the partition of Iraq. -- back to me. Well, it is, but we

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have to caveat it in a few ways. Firstly, there are millions of

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people in Iraq, so-called sushi, combined families, who do not fit

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easily into the pattern. Do we see millions of people becoming refugees

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under this scheme? There would be a lot of human tragedies if people

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really did try to enforce this type partition. Secondly, there are Sunni

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Muslim communities in the south of Baghdad, those places, once again, a

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lot of misery and fighting will occur if people try to enforce a de

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facto partition. There are still an awakening of forces. They are on the

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side of the government. We heard about one group in Samarra of Sunni

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Muslims fighting on the same side. It's a complex picture. They factor,

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it does look like a partition, and if it goes further in that direction

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it will. And partition will always be messy because people end up on

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the wrong side of the lies. Finally, the big thing on that map,

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Iran, a huge place, a huge border with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now

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becomes a key factor. It is becoming a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I

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was in Baghdad a few months ago, I did actually see Iranians

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revolutionary guards in uniform. They were protecting a senior

:08:00.:08:06.

Iranians official, so some numbers have been never some time and they

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are also said to protect the political leaders and -- in his

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compound. They are there. We think more of them are trying to organise

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the defence of Baghdad to galvanise the Iraqi army, and they will not

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allow the Iraqi government to fall. Mark, thank you for marking archive

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this morning. -- marking our card. Tony Blair took Britain

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into the Iraq conflict in 2003. He's now, among other things, envoy

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to the Middle East representing That's the UN, the EU,

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the US and Russia. This morning he entered

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the debate about what should be My point is simple. If you left

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Saddam in place in 2003, when 2011 happened and you have the Arab

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revolutions going through Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and

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Syria, you would still have had a major problem in Iraq. You can see

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what happens when you leave the dictator in place, as has happened

:09:05.:09:08.

with Bashar al-Assad. The problem doesn't go away. What I'm trying to

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say is, we can rerun the debates about 2003, and there are perfectly

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legitimate points on either side, but where we are in 2014, we have do

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understand that this is a regional problem, but a problem that will

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affect us. And I'm joined by the former Foreign

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Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, Here in London are James Rubin,

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he was chief spokesman for the State Department under

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Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, she represents the Kurdistan

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Regional government in the UK. Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles,

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we don't intervene in Syria, it's a shambles. What lessons should we

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draw? That is a well framed question, because that is the

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problem. Tony Blair is half right. Iraq, like Syria, would probably

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have been a problem even without an intervention. But one wishes someone

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would tell him to stay quiet during moments like this, because it does

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drive a great surge of people in the other direction. The fact is, what

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has been missing in western politics towards the Middle East throughout

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both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a drive to build an inclusive,

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democratic centre which is secular and nonsectarian. That has been

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missing amongst the threats of invasion Manon invasion, we have

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just constantly neglected the diplomatic nation-building

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dimensional this. I want to come onto what is happening on the

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ground. I want to begin with what the Western response by me, and by

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that we mean the United States, because of it doesn't do anything,

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nobody will do anything. All of the signals I see coming out of the

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White is that Barack Obama has no appetite for intervention -- out of

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the White House. I don't think he does have an appetite. He would be

:11:01.:11:03.

very unlikely to do anything very large. He might feel pressured to

:11:04.:11:10.

act because of the fact that this particular group, this Al-Qaeda

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inspired group, fits into the strategy he has pursued in Yemen and

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Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use drone strikes against individual

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terrorists. So it is possible that the threat of ISIS in the region and

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the West in general might inspire him to act, but the idea he will do

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enough, militarily, to transform Iraq from its current state of civil

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War into something along the lines that Mark was talking about,

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nation-building diplomacy, a big operation, I don't see President

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Obama sees his historic mission as having got the United States as out

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of it. Leave it to the Pacific, perhaps. What would the Kurds like

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the West to do? First of all, in Kurdistan we face a huge

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humanitarian crisis. We already have had bought a quarter of a million

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Syrian refugees and we were struggling to cope with that. And

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now we have at least double that number of refugees coming from

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Mosul. First and foremost, we are calling on the international

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community to help us with that. So we need humanitarian aid? Let's

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assume we do that in some way, maybe not enough, but what else if

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anything? I think it is an incumbent on the west and other powers to

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assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I think the Sunni Arab community, some

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of whom have joined ISIS and may be supported the uprising, have

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justified complaints against the federal government. But we need the

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terrorists out of Iraq. That is first and foremost. And what the

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West can do is not necessarily intervene with boots on the ground,

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but provide technical assistance, provide intelligence and help the

:13:07.:13:10.

Iraqi army and air force to be more targeted. Can you defend yourselves?

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In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the disciplined troops. In this

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situation, I hope they won't be abandoning their post, that is for

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sure. It is a national cause fires. But we are not armed in the way that

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the Iraqi army is -- cause for us. We are not armed in the way that

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ISIS seems to be now they have seized some of the American kit. We

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are not asking for weapons, but we ask for assistance for all of Iraq

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to deal with the situation. Mark, this is not just an Iraqi problem.

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This is a regional conflict, and from the Levant on the shores of the

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Mediterranean, all the way through to the Gulf, the region is gripped

:13:55.:13:59.

with what is essentially a Sunni and Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with

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the caveats that Mark bourbon made earlier, it's not quite that

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straightforward, but the basic divide is exactly that -- Mark

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Urban. People have been looking for this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan

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and have been taken by surprise although with hindsight I'm not sure

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why, that it has begun in Iraq instead. At its most extreme, it

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risks redrawing the 20th century boundaries of the region in a way

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which would be highly unstable because it would pit a Shia Muslim

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bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc and would undo all of the sort of

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social and economic advance of the last century, so the stakes are

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suddenly very, very high indeed. Are we seeing the redrawing? The lines

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were drawn secretly, not far from here, about a mile away, and may

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have survived through thick and thin. They now look pretty fragile.

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The map is being redrawn. I think it is true that there is a key factor

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Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit

:15:09.:15:15.

of a hand to the promotion of the idea of self-determination, and in a

:15:16.:15:18.

way, there is a self determination going on, particularly in the

:15:19.:15:22.

Kurdish region, and perhaps they may end up the big winners in all of

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this, because they have proceeded with a relatively moderate,

:15:26.:15:30.

reconcilable government. The key thing that the Kurdish region has

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done. They used to fight the two groups, and now they fight together.

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What the Sunni Muslims have not done is figure out how to let politics

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let the side things instead of guns. We need to look clearly and in Syria

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and Iraq, if there is a Sunni extremist with ISIS that carves out

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a place for itself, it will be the great irony of the modern era.

:16:07.:16:10.

President Bush said he wanted to go into Iraq to fight terrorism. There

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was no terrorist. There are now. If in Iraq and Syria together thereat a

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thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability that threatens the region, the

:16:23.:16:28.

West, the world, we are all going to have to do something about it.

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The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power.

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You would not want it on your southern border. Absolutely, we

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would not. The point we are all making indirectly is that things

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have changed in Iraq and will never be the same again. Whether Iraq

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completely disintegrates into three countries, or whether it stays

:17:12.:17:13.

together as one country, but a countries, or whether it stays

:17:14.:17:15.

together as one country, but loose federation, either way, Iraq has

:17:16.:17:21.

changed. It will not go back to what it was. I hope it will change for

:17:22.:17:27.

the better. I think we're at the make or break point for Iraq. Either

:17:28.:17:34.

the political readers -- the political leaders of a right wake up

:17:35.:17:39.

and smell the coffee and put aside their differences or there will be

:17:40.:17:43.

problems. This provides that opportunity, in a very nasty way. If

:17:44.:17:50.

we take it? Yes, and if not, I think this is the end of a rack as we know

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it. If anything resembling a caliphate emerges, that is very

:17:56.:18:03.

destabilising for the region itself. More so I would suggest than even

:18:04.:18:06.

the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. At some stage, you have

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to assume that they will be coming for us. That is correct. This is

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extremely dangerous. The only way forward is for these political

:18:27.:18:29.

groups to talk to each other and find a compromise that allows the

:18:30.:18:33.

rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected within or the

:18:34.:18:37.

rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected with an

:18:38.:18:41.

autonomous federal-state. Any support for the government must be

:18:42.:18:45.

premised on that. There is no military solution for this which is

:18:46.:18:57.

in during -- there is no military solution for this. There must be

:18:58.:19:04.

serious political negotiation, not with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim

:19:05.:19:08.

moderates, to form a more representative government. This is

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the last chance for Iraq. I think we are all saying that that is going to

:19:15.:19:18.

need to be some major western leadership to make some big

:19:19.:19:21.

decisions here for the future of the region. I am concerned that after

:19:22.:19:26.

Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is quite world-weary, quite

:19:27.:19:32.

world-weary. It does not seem to be giving leadership. Certainly we are

:19:33.:19:38.

not seeing that in Europe. I am deeply concerned that we are not

:19:39.:19:40.

going to take the leadership role that needs to be taken. These are

:19:41.:19:47.

big issues. When Britain and France carved up the Middle East, they were

:19:48.:19:51.

world powers, operating as global powers, and without that global

:19:52.:19:55.

leadership by somebody, this is just going to get worse and worse. I

:19:56.:19:59.

think we will leave it there, thank you very much.

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The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power.

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It is just under 100 days until the referendum on Scottish independence.

:20:10.:20:12.

So, for once, it'll be a long hot-summer

:20:13.:20:14.

But the campaign isn't just getting heated.

:20:15.:20:19.

In places it's also down-right nasty. When

:20:20.:20:21.

Scotland's best-selling author announced she was giving

:20:22.:20:23.

the unionist cause a million pounds this week, she received

:20:24.:20:26.

Independence supporters online, so-called cybernats,

:20:27.:20:34.

called JK Rowling a traitor and much worse, using a variety of

:20:35.:20:36.

For its part, the Better Together campaign has been accused

:20:37.:20:40.

Even Gordon Brown seems to think so, and this week he criticised

:20:41.:20:44.

Conservative ministers for relying on "threats

:20:45.:20:45.

With the Edinburgh Festival approaching, reports suggest even

:20:46.:20:50.

comedians are now reluctant to engage in the subject because

:20:51.:20:53.

I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie

:20:54.:21:00.

They're both in our Glasgow studio, and they're going head to head.

:21:01.:21:14.

Blair Jenkins, let me come to you first. Why have you and the Better

:21:15.:21:21.

Together campaign and Alex Salmond not done more to slap down the cyber

:21:22.:21:24.

nationalists who are poisoning the debate? Good morning. I think both

:21:25.:21:30.

sides tried to stop the tiny number of people on both sides who are

:21:31.:21:34.

incapable of controlling themselves. We should not get this

:21:35.:21:39.

out of proportion. We are having a fantastic, decent and democratic

:21:40.:21:43.

debate. The people who probably total no more than 100 on both sides

:21:44.:21:48.

who post offensive material or not to be allowed to deflect from that

:21:49.:21:53.

fact. Of course there are nasty people on the Better Together side

:21:54.:21:56.

as well, but are you saying there are as many of those as the cyber

:21:57.:22:00.

nationalists? I have not done the Kent. Lots of people are certainly

:22:01.:22:06.

posting nasty in defensive things to people in the yes campaigners well.

:22:07.:22:12.

I imagine that people do what I do, and block them. You stop them from

:22:13.:22:18.

sending anything further. There is a democratic and in gauging progress

:22:19.:22:23.

going on throughout Scotland. It is characterised by good humour and

:22:24.:22:28.

good debate. We should not get out of proportion and the activities of

:22:29.:22:33.

the number of people. I want to get to Jackie Baillie. The debate is

:22:34.:22:36.

actually pretty good-humoured and you should be doing more about the

:22:37.:22:41.

nasties on your side as well? I think we have reached a new low this

:22:42.:22:46.

week. Despite many people engaging in the politics of the decision and

:22:47.:22:49.

the debate about that, whether we want to retain the best of both

:22:50.:22:55.

worlds are separate from the United Kingdom, what we have seen is the

:22:56.:23:00.

most abusive and vitriolic attack, particularly on women, JK Rowling

:23:01.:23:08.

and a Labour supporter who dared to support the no campaign. When you

:23:09.:23:11.

look at the number of people on social media, there are more from

:23:12.:23:17.

the yes campaign than the no site. We should all be condemning attacks,

:23:18.:23:22.

from whatever quarter they come. This seemed to be connected to the

:23:23.:23:29.

office of the First Minister. What is the evidence for that? There was

:23:30.:23:34.

an e-mail from one of the... I understand about that, but it did

:23:35.:23:39.

not use vile words. It did not, but it repeated the same mistake as on

:23:40.:23:47.

the website. We should be clear that we need to condemn these attacks,

:23:48.:23:52.

but it is not just the water works, it is taking action. There was an

:23:53.:23:58.

IpsosMORI poll this week which was varying testing. It showed the

:23:59.:24:02.

population as a whole, farmer people think that Yes Scotland is running

:24:03.:24:06.

an effective campaign as against Better Together. It is a undecided

:24:07.:24:13.

voters think this by a majority of four 21. Some people are worried

:24:14.:24:21.

about of the campaign. JK Rowling, Scotland's most successful author of

:24:22.:24:26.

all time. She gives ?1 million to the Better Together campaign. She

:24:27.:24:30.

then faces some of the most incredible abuse. I know what it is

:24:31.:24:37.

like because I have had some myself. Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some

:24:38.:24:43.

of the words, it is Sunday morning. Why does Scottish Nationalists

:24:44.:24:47.

culture have such a revolting fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to

:24:48.:24:52.

our views and it is unacceptable if people say offensive things about

:24:53.:24:55.

her or anyone else who voices and opinion in this debate. Who are

:24:56.:25:00.

obese people? When you look at the accounts of some of the people who

:25:01.:25:04.

were posting these things about JK Rowling, they were using the same

:25:05.:25:09.

sort of language about film stars and football stars. This was just

:25:10.:25:16.

part of their language on Twitter. How often has Alex Salmond condemned

:25:17.:25:21.

the cyber nationalists? Very often. Everyone in the campaign hands. By

:25:22.:25:27.

common consent, Yes Scotland is running a thoroughly positive

:25:28.:25:30.

campaign, much more positive than Better Together. Jackie Baillie, it

:25:31.:25:35.

hardly helps matters when Alistair Darling, who runs your campaign,

:25:36.:25:41.

compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il and North Korea. That hardly

:25:42.:25:46.

elevates the debate? I think we need to elevate the debate. There are

:25:47.:25:51.

less than a hundred days to go. It is a massive decision. We need to

:25:52.:25:59.

elevate the debate beyond attacks. I think there is much more that Yes

:26:00.:26:03.

Scotland and the SNP can do. You have made that point. Why are you

:26:04.:26:12.

running a campaign based on fear? The codename of your campaign is

:26:13.:26:18.

even project fear. It is threats. You cannot have the pound, there

:26:19.:26:23.

will be no shipbuilding. You will be flooded by immigrants. Why are you

:26:24.:26:27.

so negative? I am not negative at all and neither is the campaign. The

:26:28.:26:32.

campaign has asked questions and I think it is legitimate to ask

:26:33.:26:35.

questions of the people proposing such a fundamental change. People

:26:36.:26:40.

care about the economy, their jobs, their families. What would happen to

:26:41.:26:45.

them if they leave the rest of the United Kingdom. I think it is

:26:46.:26:50.

legitimate to ask questions. I refuse to be asked of

:26:51.:26:55.

scaremongering. People deserve answers. The yes campaign is equally

:26:56.:27:01.

guilty of some of the most outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you

:27:02.:27:10.

are both scaremongering. Blair Jenkins, the First Minister said of

:27:11.:27:14.

the cyber nationalists, that they are just Daft folk, as if they were

:27:15.:27:20.

mischievous little children. It is worse than that. When you look at

:27:21.:27:24.

what they say, they are twisted, perhaps even evil minds. I would not

:27:25.:27:31.

disagree with his comments, but they are directed at just a small number

:27:32.:27:35.

of people. The story of this campaign is not the story of what

:27:36.:27:40.

people are saying on Twitter. Around Scotland, lots of people are getting

:27:41.:27:44.

engaged in debate to have been tuned out of the political process. Today,

:27:45.:27:51.

we have 47% support for the yes campaign. The movement in the

:27:52.:27:56.

campaign is towards yes. People know we have a better campaign, a vision

:27:57.:28:02.

for Scotland. The latest poll of polls does not show that. Both

:28:03.:28:07.

sides, you always take the opinion polls that show you in the best

:28:08.:28:11.

light. All politicians do that. Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not

:28:12.:28:15.

just negative, it is patronising. You make dubious claims that Scots

:28:16.:28:24.

would be ?1400 better off by staying in the union, and then you say that

:28:25.:28:31.

the kids use the money to scoff 280 hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival.

:28:32.:28:34.

The fate of the nation is in your hands and that is the best you can

:28:35.:28:40.

do? I think you will find that the campaign is something that we are

:28:41.:28:46.

taking the message to people. Then why are you talking about hotdogs? I

:28:47.:28:52.

do not. The campaign did. We are taking a positive message to people

:28:53.:28:56.

across Scotland about the benefits of the United Kingdom. We believe we

:28:57.:29:01.

are stronger and more secure and more stable, being part of that

:29:02.:29:05.

family of nations that is the United Kingdom. At the same time, we have

:29:06.:29:10.

the strange and power over things like education and transport. I

:29:11.:29:17.

understand that. I am not doing the issues today, I am talking about the

:29:18.:29:21.

tone of the campaign. I have one very important question. Who would

:29:22.:29:26.

you supporting last night in the England-Italy match? I was not

:29:27.:29:32.

watching the game. I would be delighted to see England do well in

:29:33.:29:37.

this tournament. I have Argentina in the office sweepstake. I have to

:29:38.:29:41.

keep some attention on them, but I would be delighted to seeing Clint

:29:42.:29:46.

do well. That is because you think it will help your campaign. It will

:29:47.:29:53.

annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie? I was supporting England. I was also

:29:54.:29:54.

supporting Portugal. Now most of you probably missed last

:29:55.:30:01.

night's football match between England and Italy because

:30:02.:30:03.

you wanted to get an early night and England lost

:30:04.:30:06.

despite a plucky effort, I'm told. But even Westminster is

:30:07.:30:11.

in the grip of World Cup fever and with speculation

:30:12.:30:13.

about the fitness of each political party's team we sent Adam out to

:30:14.:30:16.

tackle some of the big players. Well, this is

:30:17.:30:23.

the closest I'll get to Rio. This year everybody seems to have

:30:24.:30:35.

gone a bit mad Belize, football stickers. Let's see who I will get.

:30:36.:30:41.

Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for these. George Osborne? That is

:30:42.:30:46.

because we leapt on the bandwagon and made Alan political stickers.

:30:47.:30:49.

They're hotter than a Brazilian barbecue.

:30:50.:30:53.

Sunday politics political stickers. We have one of you, Norman. Would

:30:54.:31:03.

you like it? Do you want to start collecting, Bob? Would you like a

:31:04.:31:05.

packet? collecting, Bob? Would you like a

:31:06.:31:06.

Thank you. No album, I'm afraid. collecting, Bob? Would you like a

:31:07.:31:14.

Thank you. No album, I've got Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and

:31:15.:31:19.

two of the Prime Minister. -- next to Theresa. I am sure Michael has

:31:20.:31:26.

Theresa in her stick around, and vice versa.

:31:27.:31:27.

These Tory ones are proving very popular

:31:28.:31:29.

since she fell out with him out how to handle extremism in schools.

:31:30.:31:32.

And there's been open speculation about him taking on him in

:31:33.:31:35.

Then there are rumours of a reshuffle of the whole Tory album.

:31:36.:31:44.

Do you think there will be any swapping in the Tory leadership

:31:45.:31:54.

soon? Who knows? David Cameron has also got to replace the EU

:31:55.:31:57.

commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is standing down.

:31:58.:31:58.

Does he go with the favourite the former health secretary

:31:59.:32:00.

Or the grassroots choice, Martin Callanan, the Tories old

:32:01.:32:03.

Or does he rehabilitate Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate?

:32:04.:32:08.

Do you fancy being European Commissioner? I would rather be

:32:09.:32:22.

spending the money on the world's poor and spending it well. Glad to

:32:23.:32:24.

hear it. Happy collecting. Right, there must be some Labour

:32:25.:32:27.

stickers out there. You don't want to swap Ed Balls any

:32:28.:32:35.

of the others? Can't I keep them all? This is almost the perfect

:32:36.:32:38.

team. There have been grumblings

:32:39.:32:38.

about the fitness of the Shadow And Ed Miliband's got a kicking

:32:39.:32:42.

in Liverpool after posing I'm told grown men are meeting up

:32:43.:32:46.

in pubs for sticker swaps - With Danny Finkelstein -

:32:47.:32:57.

Tory peer and Times columnist, He would be the card I would not

:32:58.:33:10.

want to trade. Do people want to trade him in? I don't think anybody

:33:11.:33:15.

wants to trade him in at the moment. He is the best person to lead the

:33:16.:33:18.

Labour party and will lead us into the next election. There's been a

:33:19.:33:22.

lot about Michael Gove, and he's very combative. That's been a huge

:33:23.:33:26.

strength as an education Secretary, despite the fact it's brought in

:33:27.:33:28.

trouble. I would think the prime minister would tell him not to get

:33:29.:33:32.

himself into peripheral battles at the moment but stick to what has

:33:33.:33:38.

been successful. I haven't got Nick Clegg, but I got me. Controversy

:33:39.:33:44.

amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I need to give away me in return for

:33:45.:33:48.

Nick Clegg. That would be far better. There you are.

:33:49.:33:51.

Some local parties are holding meetings about his leadership,

:33:52.:33:55.

but at one in Cambridge this week they voted to stick with him.

:33:56.:33:58.

You have got a Euro Commissioner. Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed

:33:59.:34:08.

Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do that? What is the significance of

:34:09.:34:13.

that? Very significant. Happy collecting.

:34:14.:34:17.

These beauties are popping up everywhere, but sadly they won't

:34:18.:34:19.

Adam is still doing the samba around Westminster as I speak.

:34:20.:34:29.

I'm joined by three journalists who've been

:34:30.:34:31.

furiously swapping stickers throughout the show, they certainly

:34:32.:34:33.

weren't allowed to stay up to watch the football, it's Nick Watt,

:34:34.:34:36.

We will talk about Labour after the break, and I want to concentrate on

:34:37.:34:45.

the Tories, but the moment, Nick, senior Tories are saying privately

:34:46.:34:50.

that they might win next May. They are beginning to dream the dream. So

:34:51.:34:57.

why are they doing all this jockeying? I think the jockeying for

:34:58.:35:04.

the leadership is about a year old. What stoped it up was when Theresa

:35:05.:35:11.

gave a speech to the conference, and people said she was doing it just in

:35:12.:35:14.

case, when things were not looking too good. She is not on manoeuvres.

:35:15.:35:19.

I think it was a policy row that drove the differences with Michael

:35:20.:35:22.

Gove. But Michael Gove is on manoeuvres, and he is trying to

:35:23.:35:26.

protect George Osborne from, he believes, a serious threat from

:35:27.:35:33.

Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa. It is quite self-indulgent when you

:35:34.:35:36.

are a couple of points behind, the economy is going your way, to be

:35:37.:35:38.

involved in this sort of stuff. Extraordinary. It shows the toxic

:35:39.:35:50.

disease that gnaws at the entrails of the Tory party, and Cameron is

:35:51.:35:54.

their great asset. He is more popular than the party, he bridges

:35:55.:35:59.

the gap is, and he has an extraordinary dissemble and some

:36:00.:36:01.

pretending to be this moderate while never the lens -- nevertheless

:36:02.:36:06.

leading the most far right wing government we have had since the

:36:07.:36:09.

war, and that has been a brilliant piece of political

:36:10.:37:59.

Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:38:00.:38:14.

programme: Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson recommends taking the

:38:15.:38:16.

referendum attack to Westminster's door. He'll be joining us live to

:38:17.:38:18.

explain what he means. The Crown Office welcomes a fall in

:38:19.:38:21.

prosecutions for football-related sectarianism, but the law is still

:38:22.:38:23.

explain what he means. The Crown Office welcomes a fall in

:38:24.:38:26.

prosecutions for football-related sectarianism, but the law is still

:38:27.:38:28.

proving controversial. We have lots more that we can do to bring tension

:38:29.:38:39.

and defence at football games. This legislation was pushing in the wrong

:38:40.:38:44.

direction. I would like to CBS FA -- S F a taker for greater role.

:38:45.:38:48.

If you went back in time to 1982 and told the SNP leader

:38:49.:38:51.

Gordon Wilson that 32 years on there would be an SNP majority government

:38:52.:38:54.

in a Scottish Parliament holding a referendum on independence, he would

:38:55.:38:57.

probably say, in his usual characteristic way,

:38:58.:38:58.

During Wilson's time at the top, the party was divided

:38:59.:39:05.

But foundations were laid for later success

:39:06.:39:08.

and the former leader is fully participating in today's debate.

:39:09.:39:10.

We'll speak to him live in a moment, but first here's Andrew Kerr.

:39:11.:39:19.

A career defining moment for Gordon Wilson's leadership. I am now

:39:20.:39:26.

convinced that the party will not recover its unity until all

:39:27.:39:35.

organised groups are banned. The 79 Group walk-out. Of which Alex

:39:36.:39:40.

Salmond was a member. The SNP group was struggling. Professor Murray

:39:41.:39:49.

Pettit was there that day. He was very courteous, very clear-cut, and

:39:50.:39:58.

always working to conciliate, to bring with them, but without

:39:59.:40:09.

actually compromising to much extent. Not a very flexible

:40:10.:40:13.

character, but flexible enough to strike a delicate balance between

:40:14.:40:19.

consensus and leadership. The professor says that Gordon Wilson

:40:20.:40:25.

now and then is an original thinker, which leads to different views from

:40:26.:40:29.

the current leadership. He suggests keeping an open mind in the EU,

:40:30.:40:43.

Alex Salmond is used to having what he says goes. When someone with the

:40:44.:40:53.

stature of Gordon Wilson comes up with contrary views, that will not

:40:54.:40:56.

go down terribly well with the leadership. They will smile and try

:40:57.:41:01.

to brush it off, but deep down he can be a thorn in the flesh. That

:41:02.:41:06.

could be a description that Gordon Wilson now relishes after his own

:41:07.:41:14.

turbulence time as leader. Listening to that is Gordon Wilson.

:41:15.:41:18.

Let us move onto your thoughts on the way that the campaign is going

:41:19.:41:22.

the moment. I am curious as to what you have made of the way that the

:41:23.:41:27.

Scottish Government has handled things this week. It has been very

:41:28.:41:38.

difficult for them. I think it turns on the technicality, basically,

:41:39.:41:43.

first of all, as to whether or not the Ministerial Code was breached.

:41:44.:41:45.

If that was breached then the resignation should the excepted.

:41:46.:41:51.

Also, of course... His resignation has not been tendered. No, because

:41:52.:41:57.

it has not been offered, and it has not yet established that it was a

:41:58.:42:01.

breach of Ministerial Code. Do you think that he should go? Only if he

:42:02.:42:06.

has breached the code, which is illegal requirement. And if the

:42:07.:42:12.

story becomes greater than that of the SNP Government. It is well-known

:42:13.:42:16.

that PR men in government have to leave if their profile... But you

:42:17.:42:25.

say that it is established that he has broken the code, but if he is

:42:26.:42:28.

not tendering his resignation and Alex Salmond is not sacking him, who

:42:29.:42:33.

has expected to establish if the court has been broken and not? Black

:42:34.:42:43.

--. Normally it is the permanent secretary. I can apply my experience

:42:44.:42:49.

over the years, that if you secretary. I can apply my experience

:42:50.:42:51.

over the years, that have got a big story and it is going on and on and

:42:52.:42:55.

on then you have got to deal with it. Equally it may lapse because

:42:56.:43:01.

there are other things happening. So you think that he should stay unless

:43:02.:43:11.

it becomes too big a new story. If he has breached the code then he has

:43:12.:43:15.

to go. As he has not breached the code but there is a PR problem then

:43:16.:43:24.

he may need to go. If neither of these apply then Campbell Gunn

:43:25.:43:28.

should stay. I'm interested on the comments on the debate from Hillary

:43:29.:43:33.

Clinton, the Pope, President Obama. It sounded at first that Scotland

:43:34.:43:38.

was becoming a pariah amongst these nations. But I think the Pope

:43:39.:43:44.

particularly was studiously neutral. It is a very interesting thing,

:43:45.:43:48.

isn't it, that presidents go to our land and to London and they never

:43:49.:43:53.

come to Scotland. I was taken by President Obama's remark. He said

:43:54.:44:00.

that from the outside things seem to work. The problem is that from the

:44:01.:44:04.

inside the union is not working, the Scots are suffering and it is hardly

:44:05.:44:08.

surprising that they will treat this shifty attitude from President

:44:09.:44:16.

Obama, who has no doubt been prepped by Cameron, with the respect it

:44:17.:44:19.

requires. So you think you should not have been involved? He is

:44:20.:44:26.

perfectly entitled to be involved, that is up to him. But the Americans

:44:27.:44:31.

have to look to the future. They have got Britain like Joe Yule, or a

:44:32.:44:36.

puppet on a string, written does everything that they want. Why

:44:37.:44:55.

should they want separation? You described him as shifty? He was

:44:56.:44:58.

under pressure to say something, he had been asked to, and body else

:44:59.:45:04.

knew that, which is not the sort of predicament that a President of the

:45:05.:45:08.

United States wants to be in. He is just doing the young boy a favour.

:45:09.:45:11.

In the document you produced this week, which is one of your

:45:12.:45:20.

occasional missives on what you think the yes camp should be doing.

:45:21.:45:25.

You say that they have to begin the initiative. But some of the poll

:45:26.:45:28.

suggests that they have been doing just that. Yes, I am elated by

:45:29.:45:37.

that, but do not forget that we still have to get past the 50% mark,

:45:38.:45:41.

and not only that I would like to see the momentum build up so that we

:45:42.:45:49.

go well past the 50% mark. Believe you me, if it is a narrow majority

:45:50.:45:53.

then London will want a rerun and will try to manipulate that into

:45:54.:45:59.

doing so. Do not accept that the London politicians are natural

:46:00.:46:02.

Democrats when it comes to Scotland. Scotland they regard as their

:46:03.:46:06.

possession, their colony, and they will not let it go unless they are

:46:07.:46:11.

forced to. But what you think the Yes campaign needs to do that it is

:46:12.:46:16.

not doing now? Two things. When people go to the ballot box in

:46:17.:46:20.

September, they will do so with many different reasons. But I think that

:46:21.:46:27.

at the point of the decision, some people will have to decide on the

:46:28.:46:31.

question of identity, where they see their future. In Britain, are in an

:46:32.:46:36.

independent Scotland. On the yes side, it has two project a vision of

:46:37.:46:42.

a better Scotland... But Alex Salmond would say that he does

:46:43.:46:47.

little else. Mac I do not know. I think that my job is to persuade

:46:48.:46:52.

Alex Salmond to up his game of it. The vision thing is very important.

:46:53.:46:56.

I am sorry to pretend to be Alex Salmond, but if I were him... Loom

:46:57.:47:02.

at your doing a very good example. I think that I would say to you, for

:47:03.:47:07.

heaven 's sake, I was out the other day making a speech about how

:47:08.:47:15.

exports in Scotland could go up under an independent Scotland. It is

:47:16.:47:21.

coming from a number of sources, not just orchestrated through the SNP

:47:22.:47:25.

Government. What we need is greater input from other leaders in Scotland

:47:26.:47:28.

who favour a yes but have ideas as to what should be done, but the

:47:29.:47:38.

other side of the coin, we have to point out that Britain is not

:47:39.:47:41.

necessarily a good thing. How can you be a member of a country with an

:47:42.:47:47.

850 strong parasitic house of lords, non-elected, deciding the laws...

:47:48.:47:54.

But the SNP never stop banging on about this stuff. Not by my

:47:55.:47:59.

standards. I think I may be slightly more tough than the SNP when it

:48:00.:48:03.

comes to hammering London. And they should also look at the economic

:48:04.:48:08.

issues, because that is the thing that will determine the votes of

:48:09.:48:20.

lots of people. Jim Sillars rates on the same website that you call

:48:21.:48:24.

offer. He said that Alex Salmond was a liability. I think he was wrong.

:48:25.:48:30.

Sadly I was in the Middle East when that happened. I'm asking if you

:48:31.:48:37.

agree with him. No, I do not think so. If you took him out of the

:48:38.:48:42.

equation they would be a huge gap. But the opposition are saying that

:48:43.:48:46.

if you vote yes then you are voting for the SNP and the SNP Government,

:48:47.:48:51.

whereas, this is Scotland's referendum and Alex Salmond is a

:48:52.:48:54.

servant of the people in this respect. So he has the most

:48:55.:48:58.

substantial role to play as First Minister, but going back to my seem,

:48:59.:49:05.

we are required to orchestrated much more broadly. You would prefer if an

:49:06.:49:08.

independent Scotland had its own currency. Does it concern you that

:49:09.:49:13.

there is no plan B on currency from the Scottish Government, that there

:49:14.:49:17.

is just this and systems over and over again that the Unionist parties

:49:18.:49:22.

are lying when they say that they will not contemplate a currency

:49:23.:49:27.

union? Do you think that the Scottish Government should, in

:49:28.:49:30.

fact, not just have a plan B but be putting some mechanisms in place in

:49:31.:49:34.

the eventuality that there is a Yes vote? I expect that there is quite a

:49:35.:49:39.

bit of thinking going on inside the fiscal commission for Scotland on

:49:40.:49:44.

these issues. Let me put it to you in my capacity as a former

:49:45.:49:48.

politician. If the SNP had come up with plan B, plan C, Landy, etc, it

:49:49.:49:54.

would have subjected them to immediate hostile criticism. The

:49:55.:49:59.

fact of the matter, and it is a question, I believe that it is a

:50:00.:50:03.

bluff on the part of Westminster, but if not then Scotland will adopt

:50:04.:50:07.

the same currency as sterling and use it. And even then, you see, even

:50:08.:50:13.

if there were a fiscal is on the Red Hat to be a period of five or ten

:50:14.:50:18.

years where we were within the pound sterling area and then we could have

:50:19.:50:21.

our own currency, we could float it, but only after consultation and only

:50:22.:50:30.

after it is observe the play -- after she is beneficial to Scottish

:50:31.:50:42.

business. The financial markets will react to the reality of the

:50:43.:50:47.

situation that the trading position will be stronger. So, I don't

:50:48.:50:56.

think... The problem for London is because if you take away the

:50:57.:50:59.

Scottish exports the balance of trade immediately diminishes and the

:51:00.:51:04.

financial markets will have two look at that. There has to be

:51:05.:51:10.

Corporation. One thing you said was people should not take so if Labour

:51:11.:51:14.

promises from the Unionist parties for more devolution. Why not? A lot

:51:15.:51:21.

of the Yes campaign on devolution seems to assume the other side of

:51:22.:51:27.

the debate are lying. The track record is that from 1945 onwards

:51:28.:51:34.

there have been promises from London being broken again and again and

:51:35.:51:41.

again. The only react to the pressures of votes from within

:51:42.:51:44.

Scotland, if there is pressure they give powers but remember Enoch

:51:45.:51:49.

Powell said that power devolved is power retained. A few months ago

:51:50.:51:54.

they passed an order taking away energy powers from the Scottish

:51:55.:51:58.

government. Without much consultation... They can do what

:51:59.:52:03.

they like and if Scotland votes no, Scotland will be defenceless, in a

:52:04.:52:11.

skilful way they will start fitting Scottish institutions and secondly

:52:12.:52:16.

people don't really know that the next round of public expenditure

:52:17.:52:22.

cuts, 25 billion, is down the road and the day after the next

:52:23.:52:26.

Westminster general election it will come into effect. That is something

:52:27.:52:31.

which should exercise our minds because a lot of the things the

:52:32.:52:34.

Scottish Parliament under Labour and SNP which people like will be under

:52:35.:52:41.

pressure. Tuition fees may have to go, NHS may be like being this one.

:52:42.:52:48.

You can spin those out of thin air but the point is... Cuts are a

:52:49.:52:59.

reality. That is a different issue from devolution. People say why

:53:00.:53:05.

should we believe them? I have an advantage on you because I spent

:53:06.:53:11.

some years on the Isle of Man and they are an autonomous government,

:53:12.:53:15.

they toe the line on many things, hardly pay income taxed, they have

:53:16.:53:21.

managed well. They have 75,000 people. Scotland will still be taxed

:53:22.:53:27.

by Westminster. It is a matter of experience throughout the world you

:53:28.:53:30.

get these situations. The Scots would be foolish to ignore it. Thank

:53:31.:53:33.

you for joining us. As national teams are playing

:53:34.:53:37.

in Brazil for the World Cup, here , two years on from the introduction

:53:38.:53:40.

of controversial legislation aimed at criminalising religious hatred

:53:41.:53:43.

in Scottish football, calls This week,

:53:44.:53:44.

figures released by the Crown Office showed there were fewer sectarian

:53:45.:53:48.

incidents recorded at the season Thanks, it says,

:53:49.:53:51.

in part to the offensive behaviour at football act, which gave

:53:52.:53:59.

prosecutors additional powers to crack down on sectarian songs

:54:00.:54:01.

and abuse at matches and online. At the same time figure released to

:54:02.:54:04.

this programme show more than 70% of charges under the act were

:54:05.:54:07.

concentrated in just three areas. This, the shame game of 2011 is seen

:54:08.:54:24.

by many as the catalyst for Scotland's newest football

:54:25.:54:31.

legislation. , crowbar has to be a winner in Glasgow tonight and the

:54:32.:54:39.

winner takes it all. The reputation of Scottish football was the loser

:54:40.:54:44.

on the night, it was agreed offensive behaviour had to be

:54:45.:54:48.

tackled but the solution was controversial. How we police

:54:49.:54:55.

football games is no different now than it has been four years or 20

:54:56.:55:01.

years ago. We have lots more we can do to bring tension and the

:55:02.:55:10.

legislation is pushing it in the wrong direction. The act aims to

:55:11.:55:12.

criminalise religious hatred in football. Some still feel the closer

:55:13.:55:19.

scrutiny and intensified policing implies and a comfortable distrust

:55:20.:55:25.

of fans. Immediately before this bill, we had a situation where

:55:26.:55:31.

policing in Scotland was mature, effective and was different than it

:55:32.:55:38.

had been in the 1970s and 80s. Police by consent is light touch.

:55:39.:55:44.

Where we have got to now is policing by confrontation and control and it

:55:45.:55:47.

is a horrible place. There is agreement that fans are not the

:55:48.:55:56.

problem. The act is dealing with the misbehaving minority. Figures show

:55:57.:56:00.

over the last 12 months, the number prosecuted for offensive behaviour

:56:01.:56:06.

has gone down by 24%. The majority had affiliations with Celtic or

:56:07.:56:10.

Rangers. Figures released show since the act was introduced, 469 people

:56:11.:56:17.

have been charged with offences under the act. 338, 72%, which

:56:18.:56:25.

charged in the greater Glasgow, Ayrshire and Lanarkshire areas.

:56:26.:56:30.

There were four prosecutions in Dumfries Galloway. Most offences

:56:31.:56:33.

related to singing or speech in or around football grounds. The chief

:56:34.:56:38.

legal officer believes the reduction in offences compared to last year is

:56:39.:56:46.

thanks to the act. I am confident that it is needed. And I'm confident

:56:47.:56:52.

it has been used appropriately. I am confident that in time, as we see

:56:53.:56:58.

from the figures, there has been an improvement in behaviour at football

:56:59.:57:04.

matches. But it is only the second year. I am aware of the fact there

:57:05.:57:09.

are old firm matches. We want to see the effect. The lord advocate says

:57:10.:57:15.

the majority of fans can enjoy matches without being affected by

:57:16.:57:21.

the legislation. There is concern elsewhere that the culture

:57:22.:57:25.

surrounding the game has all ready been altered. It makes people more

:57:26.:57:29.

frightened to be able to speak their minds. And is in its people's sense

:57:30.:57:35.

you have a free society where you can discuss things all say things.

:57:36.:57:42.

Another major change is it is now encouraging football fans to play

:57:43.:57:45.

the offence card so you will find more and more Celtic and Rangers and

:57:46.:57:51.

other fans phoning the police on one another. Despite challenges from

:57:52.:58:00.

fans and clubs, a review of the legislation will not happen before

:58:01.:58:04.

August next year. After another football season and, of course,

:58:05.:58:43.

major fixtures at the ballot box. The rank-and-file police officers

:58:44.:58:50.

think it is vague and not using the legislation and we don't have the

:58:51.:58:57.

old firm matches which has been a focal point. You give the act no

:58:58.:59:05.

credit? Lets look at the experts, the churches, well-meaning fans, the

:59:06.:59:09.

campaign groups, the rank and file police officers, concerns about the

:59:10.:59:15.

act. We all think rather than playing politics, let's recognise

:59:16.:59:19.

there is an issue and we need to take action. It requires not my

:59:20.:59:25.

legislation but the right legal framework and funding and

:59:26.:59:29.

appropriate education. We have seen funding cut. Sandra, what do you

:59:30.:59:36.

make that it is unrelated? It is related in the falling numbers. The

:59:37.:59:42.

act is working. The 24% drop is proof. He makes assumptions, talking

:59:43.:59:50.

about the fans and groups who are not supportive but many people are

:59:51.:59:54.

very supportive of the legislation and it is proof it is working. When

:59:55.:00:01.

you talk about coming forward in 2015, we must remember that was a

:00:02.:00:08.

Justice committee put forward an amendment to the bill to ask for

:00:09.:00:13.

2015. It has been accepted -- accepted by the Scottish government

:00:14.:00:15.

that there will be a report. I believe... Next year, you will sit

:00:16.:00:22.

down and look at it and will say this is fantastic, let's keep it

:00:23.:00:25.

going or you will do what you did with the tax and shove it to one

:00:26.:00:32.

side. People asked to put forward a report and the Scottish government

:00:33.:00:37.

says, we will take it on board, you need to look at the facts and

:00:38.:00:41.

figures, 24% drop in offences, it is working. It isn't unreasonable to

:00:42.:00:48.

say let's give this a chance and look at it next year. What is the

:00:49.:00:53.

difference? You can have the argument next year but it isn't

:00:54.:00:57.

unreasonable to give it a chance. There needs to be a funding

:00:58.:01:05.

commitment. Do we have a commitment of funding will stay in place?

:01:06.:01:12.

You want rid of this law, I suggest Sandra has a point when she says

:01:13.:01:17.

let's review it in 2015 as the government said they would do. How

:01:18.:01:21.

can you disagree? Your macro all opposition parties united in the

:01:22.:01:27.

parliament to say the legislation was the wrong thing and sent the

:01:28.:01:33.

wrong message. The campaign groups as well who expressed concern about

:01:34.:01:38.

the legislation. The right approach is to repeal the act. Opposition

:01:39.:01:44.

parties on the Justice committee agreed this. It is untrue to say

:01:45.:01:53.

that everyone apart from the government are for or against. There

:01:54.:01:58.

were opposition parties, members who work for it. There has to be an

:01:59.:02:02.

exception is that in terms of the faith and trust of the fans, the

:02:03.:02:07.

majority of well-meaning fans, do not have faith and trust in the

:02:08.:02:11.

deflation. The police officers have expressed concern. The Sheriff

:02:12.:02:15.

expressed concern with the legislation. Let's get away from the

:02:16.:02:26.

legal stuff, what do you make of the point that we want racial abuse and

:02:27.:02:34.

sexual abuse and it is not acceptable but in a way laws like

:02:35.:02:38.

this encourage people to take offence. You hear a song and you are

:02:39.:02:46.

a fan and you say, I am shocked to the core, I bet find the police and

:02:47.:02:51.

that isn't necessarily what you want to be in courage. What he was saying

:02:52.:02:58.

is the assumption was it was tip for tat. If you say something offensive,

:02:59.:03:03.

it is offensive and the law is here to stop that. It isn't spelt out

:03:04.:03:10.

what it is. Not all of the football fans... There are a number of

:03:11.:03:18.

groups. If someone says it is offensive and the language is

:03:19.:03:22.

offensive, you need to look at it seriously. Should Scotland be

:03:23.:03:30.

putting up with that? The groups who are saying others are offensive are

:03:31.:03:38.

in the category you mentioned. There are different points from different

:03:39.:03:43.

groups. This is the confusion. The law has added confusion. We have

:03:44.:03:48.

breach of the peace legislation or ready. This is working. It isn't

:03:49.:03:55.

working! To be continued. Thank you both very much.

:03:56.:03:59.

You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland.

:04:00.:04:00.

Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr.

:04:01.:04:03.

A new technique for detecting bowel cancer is to be

:04:04.:04:07.

About 20,000 patients in Tayside, Fife, Grampian

:04:08.:04:12.

and Glasgow health board areas will be offered "scope screening",

:04:13.:04:16.

The 15-minute procedure can detect polyps that could

:04:17.:04:22.

The Queen's baton will continue the Scottish leg of its journey today

:04:23.:04:28.

Up to four-thousand people will carry it across the country

:04:29.:04:33.

in the run up to the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.

:04:34.:04:36.

Today it travels around West Lothian taking in

:04:37.:04:38.

Linlithgow Palace where a series of events are planned.

:04:39.:04:42.

The Wimbledon champions Andy Murray and Marion Bartoli are

:04:43.:04:44.

among the big names taking part in the national "Rally for Bally"

:04:45.:04:47.

The Ukrainian-born former British number one, who grew up in Scotland,

:04:48.:04:53.

died of liver cancer last month, at the age of 30.

:04:54.:04:57.

Murray will be at the fundraising rally

:04:58.:04:59.

in Birmingham while an event will be held at Perth tennis club where

:05:00.:05:02.

That's the news let's now take a look at the weather forecast,

:05:03.:05:08.

A lot of fine, brakes, dry weather around. We start off with a fair bit

:05:09.:05:27.

of cloud around. That will thin and break in the afternoon, allowing

:05:28.:05:29.

good spells of sunshine to get going. Always a bit more in the way

:05:30.:05:36.

of cloud hanging on at East Coast. Rarely do get the best of the

:05:37.:05:39.

sunshine, towards Glasgow in the south-west, 21 or even 22 Celsius,

:05:40.:05:46.

and just the odd light shower. That is the forecast.

:05:47.:05:48.

Now back to Gordon. Both sides in the independence

:05:49.:06:10.

debate marked 100 days to go to the referendum. As former Prime Minister

:06:11.:06:13.

Gordon Brown cold for David Cameron to debate with Alex Salmond on TV

:06:14.:06:19.

and head of the vote. There has been a rise in greenhouse gas emissions

:06:20.:06:24.

in 2012. It is the third year in a row that the government target has

:06:25.:06:28.

been mist. Former US Secretary of State Hillary

:06:29.:06:31.

Clinton said she hoped Scotland did not become independent. We will see

:06:32.:06:36.

what the people of Scotland decide, but I would say that it would be a

:06:37.:06:41.

loss for both sides, but I do not have a vote.

:06:42.:06:46.

The First Minister said the full powers of independence with this

:06:47.:06:51.

economy. Campaigners in the yes and no camps have welcomed comments from

:06:52.:06:58.

the Pope. Pope Francis told a Catalonian newspaper that states

:06:59.:07:04.

breaking away should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

:07:05.:07:11.

Let us take a look at what is coming up in the week ahead.

:07:12.:07:20.

I'm joined by George Kerevan, and Kirsty Scott. Let us talk about the

:07:21.:07:32.

polls. We have now had three polls in three days, which seemed to show

:07:33.:07:36.

that there is a bit of an uptake in the support for the yes side.

:07:37.:07:42.

Anybody in the yes camp reading the newspapers this morning would have

:07:43.:07:46.

been smelling over their cornflakes. Within a couple of points over 50%

:07:47.:08:01.

going either way. I noticed one commentator saying that it could go

:08:02.:08:05.

either way. The issue is gender. Clearly there is a majority of men

:08:06.:08:12.

in Scotland, well beyond margins of error, who are going to vote yes.

:08:13.:08:17.

The gap or the yes campaigners with women. And it is whether the whole

:08:18.:08:23.

argument over JK Rowling is going to influence voters. What you make of

:08:24.:08:31.

these polls? I would like to see the polls that might next week after

:08:32.:08:36.

this week. They do show a narrowing. I believe that the latest one, they

:08:37.:08:41.

did it after JK Rowling's announcement. You think that she

:08:42.:08:47.

will have very much influence on women? I do not think that JK

:08:48.:08:51.

Rowling dead, but it is an issue for women and a large part of that is

:08:52.:08:58.

that it is a very male, very competent campaign -- combative

:08:59.:09:04.

campaign. That is pitting woman. Not so much JK Rowling, but... Do you

:09:05.:09:21.

think that the whole row with Campbell Gunn is making matters

:09:22.:09:28.

worse? The virtual that was heaped on this woman, it makes me

:09:29.:09:37.

uncomfortable. He is a good man, I do not think that it excuses what he

:09:38.:09:41.

did, I do not think it was part of any orchestrated campaign, but I

:09:42.:09:47.

think it sends a message that that kind of underhand tactic to

:09:48.:09:53.

undermine people is oche. I think that there was a lot of misogynistic

:09:54.:09:58.

comments online. I would be very interested to see in the polls what

:09:59.:10:11.

women are seeing next week. Do you think he should stay or go? If this

:10:12.:10:20.

role than next week then I would imagine he would fall on his sword.

:10:21.:10:24.

This is not about whether he stays or goes, it is about how women

:10:25.:10:30.

perceive that. I feel sorry for Campbell Gunn, all he did was to

:10:31.:10:39.

pick up points in the media where issues were being pushed the wrong

:10:40.:10:43.

way. It is quite clear in the relaunch, yet another one child

:10:44.:11:03.

better together, Clare Lally was being presented as not just an

:11:04.:11:12.

ordinary mother but a member of that campaign. She is an ordinary mother.

:11:13.:11:17.

Campbell Gunn was saying that he was correcting a mistake. He was trying

:11:18.:11:22.

to undermine our viewpoint that was different. One suspects that even if

:11:23.:11:29.

Campbell Gunn had not intervened in this, Clare Lally would have got

:11:30.:11:37.

dogs abuse from some sections of the cybernats anyway. The Rhino

:11:38.:11:45.

questions about it for me, if people are abusive to women we should root

:11:46.:11:48.

them out. We need to do something about it, and I blame editors for

:11:49.:11:59.

now pitting at the end of columns on the Internet, without pitting the

:12:00.:12:05.

name and the address, as they used to do, they put anonymous comments.

:12:06.:12:13.

I think we have to edit that. Ruth Davidson saying that if there is

:12:14.:12:20.

independence then you might be in favour of a currency union. Question

:12:21.:12:26.

was put her and it was very much qualified. She said, I want us to

:12:27.:12:32.

stay in the union, and she also said that she thought that an independent

:12:33.:12:37.

currency would be the best thing for an independent country, but I think

:12:38.:12:40.

it has been overplayed. But I can understand why people are jumping on

:12:41.:12:44.

it and seeing, this all goes to show. We still do not know what is

:12:45.:12:49.

green to happen in terms of currency, less than 100 days now. I

:12:50.:12:54.

think that Ruth Davidson is a breath of fresh air for the Tory party. She

:12:55.:12:59.

has taken the Tory party under demolition further than the Labour

:13:00.:13:08.

Party -- devolution. You organised and air show. Yes, last year, the

:13:09.:13:16.

air show was taking off again this year. What you think should happen

:13:17.:13:22.

to the airport? It is a great airport, we should keep it open. It

:13:23.:13:28.

would be great for freight and Scotland gets control of airline

:13:29.:13:31.

taxes, if we can reduce our taxes the way that the Irish have,

:13:32.:13:38.

Northern Ireland have volt control -- devolved control. This should

:13:39.:13:46.

keep it open as long as they changed their local!

:13:47.:13:52.

That is all from us this week. I will be back at the scene came next

:13:53.:13:55.

week. From all of us, goodbye.

:13:56.:13:57.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. James Rubin, Mark Malloch-Brown and Bayan Rahman discuss the crisis in Iraq. Jackie Baillie from Better Together and Blair Jenkins from Yes Scotland debate the nature of the Scottish independence campaign.


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