Browse content similar to 15/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Politics. The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
slowed. But the country now faces a defect or partition. Watching | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
Britain, the USA and Europe be doing, if anything? | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
It has been a big week in the Scottish referendum. Even the Pope | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
had a say. But has the tone of the debate will come to downright nasty? | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
Can I swap Ed Miliband four attempts Aaron? We will be asking if any of | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
the parties are making last-minute substitutions before the election. | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
Coming up in Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:25. | :01:25. | |
The former SNP leader Gordon Wilson says it's time to challenge | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
Westminster about its policies in the event of a No vote. | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
He'll join us live to explain what he means. | :01:31. | :01:43. | |
The Sunni Islamist army known as ISIS is now in control | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
of huge swathes of northern and western Iraq, including | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
Until the weekend they looked like advancing relentlessly | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
on Baghdad but that offensive has now been slowed or even halted | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
The Iraqi army and its Shia milita allies vow that | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Baghdad will not be taken and that a counter-attack will soon begin. | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has to do something to | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
reverse the humiliation of recent days, which saw | :02:09. | :02:09. | |
his US-trained and equipped Iraqi army, which outnumbered | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or surrender when confronted by ISIS. | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
The conflict has already created a humanitarian crisis, with hundreds | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
The Kurds have used the conflict to consolidate their hold on their | :02:22. | :02:31. | |
autonomous area in the north, parts of the west and the north are in the | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
grip of ISIS control and the Shias are hunkering down in the east. | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
All of which makes a three-way partition a real possibility with | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
The US is moving another of its massive aircraft carrier | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
battlefleets to the Gulf, though the White House shows no | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
While Iran says it's ready to help its Shia allies | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
and there are unconfoirmed reports that its revolutionary guard has | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban. | :02:56. | :03:08. | |
Let's start with some basics. Who are ISIS and why are they | :03:09. | :03:17. | |
controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS is an extremist militant jihad | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
organisation and they have a pure Islamic concept based on 14th | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
century history and jurisprudence. What they want to do is correct -- | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
create this caliphate that do not recognise colonial boundaries so it | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
involves Syria and Iraq, and they could go down to Lebanon and | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
Palestine, that is all fair game as far as they are concerned. And they | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
have this strict interpretation of Islam. The more interesting question | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
is why have semi-Sunni Muslims, along with them, these are precisely | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
the sort of people who in 2006, 2007, tribal leaders in the west of | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
the country rose up against. It was called the Awakening and the | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
Americans in power did and bankrolled it. These people turned | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
against them and admired them in large numbers, so why do they have | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
so many Sunni Muslims on their side? We hear about people going | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
back to Mosul. I think the answer is a perception | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
back to Mosul. I think the answer that the current government is | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
ruling in sectarian interests, Shia Muslim interest, and the Sunni | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
Muslims want self-determination and this is their best bet. | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
Muslims want self-determination and this is their Let me put up this map | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
to find out where we are going. We can see Mosul in the north, they | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
took that, and then they started, South, reports that the crit was | :04:37. | :04:45. | |
involved -- to grit -- to grit. What is the situation on the ground now? | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
We are in what you might call a consolidation or strategic pause as | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
American called it in 2003. ISIS are trying to consolidate their power in | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
Mosul, and now they have this major city and they are trying to show | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
they can run the city and get the power going, etc. Their southernmost | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
forces, that is a gorilla army, guys in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
with serious opposition. They would like to get the tanks and other | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
things into action but that could take weeks for them to be able to do | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
it. The government side is that they have counter-attacked, but it will | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
take a little while before these newly raised militia and other task | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
forces, call them what you will, can effectively counter-attacked. But | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
that is what will happen in the next week or two. We will see | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
increasingly large and serious government counter-attacked trying | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
to retake those places, and I fear a really difficult, bloody Syrian | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
style street by street battle for some of these urban centres. I would | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
like to have a look at this map, because the Kurds, as I mentioned, | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
they are consolidating their position in the autonomous region in | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
the north. The Islamist are taking over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
West. And of course the Shia Muslim are still dominant in control of | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
Baghdad and in parts of the south and east. Back to me looks like the | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
beginnings of the partition of Iraq. -- back to me. Well, it is, but we | :06:25. | :06:34. | |
have to caveat it in a few ways. Firstly, there are millions of | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
people in Iraq, so-called sushi, combined families, who do not fit | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
easily into the pattern. Do we see millions of people becoming refugees | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
under this scheme? There would be a lot of human tragedies if people | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
really did try to enforce this type partition. Secondly, there are Sunni | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
Muslim communities in the south of Baghdad, those places, once again, a | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
lot of misery and fighting will occur if people try to enforce a de | :07:05. | :07:14. | |
facto partition. There are still an awakening of forces. They are on the | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
side of the government. We heard about one group in Samarra of Sunni | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
Muslims fighting on the same side. It's a complex picture. They factor, | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
it does look like a partition, and if it goes further in that direction | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
it will. And partition will always be messy because people end up on | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
the wrong side of the lies. Finally, the big thing on that map, | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
Iran, a huge place, a huge border with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
becomes a key factor. It is becoming a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
was in Baghdad a few months ago, I did actually see Iranians | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
revolutionary guards in uniform. They were protecting a senior | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
Iranians official, so some numbers have been never some time and they | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
are also said to protect the political leaders and -- in his | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
compound. They are there. We think more of them are trying to organise | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
the defence of Baghdad to galvanise the Iraqi army, and they will not | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
allow the Iraqi government to fall. Mark, thank you for marking archive | :08:25. | :08:25. | |
this morning. -- marking our card. Tony Blair took Britain | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
into the Iraq conflict in 2003. He's now, among other things, envoy | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
to the Middle East representing That's the UN, the EU, | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
the US and Russia. This morning he entered | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
the debate about what should be My point is simple. If you left | :08:39. | :08:49. | |
Saddam in place in 2003, when 2011 happened and you have the Arab | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
revolutions going through Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
Syria, you would still have had a major problem in Iraq. You can see | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
what happens when you leave the dictator in place, as has happened | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
with Bashar al-Assad. The problem doesn't go away. What I'm trying to | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
say is, we can rerun the debates about 2003, and there are perfectly | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
legitimate points on either side, but where we are in 2014, we have do | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
understand that this is a regional problem, but a problem that will | :09:21. | :09:21. | |
affect us. And I'm joined by the former Foreign | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, Here in London are James Rubin, | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
he was chief spokesman for the State Department under | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, she represents the Kurdistan | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
Regional government in the UK. Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, | :09:35. | :09:51. | |
we don't intervene in Syria, it's a shambles. What lessons should we | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
draw? That is a well framed question, because that is the | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
problem. Tony Blair is half right. Iraq, like Syria, would probably | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
have been a problem even without an intervention. But one wishes someone | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
would tell him to stay quiet during moments like this, because it does | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
drive a great surge of people in the other direction. The fact is, what | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
has been missing in western politics towards the Middle East throughout | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a drive to build an inclusive, | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
democratic centre which is secular and nonsectarian. That has been | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
missing amongst the threats of invasion Manon invasion, we have | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
just constantly neglected the diplomatic nation-building | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
dimensional this. I want to come onto what is happening on the | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
ground. I want to begin with what the Western response by me, and by | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
that we mean the United States, because of it doesn't do anything, | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
nobody will do anything. All of the signals I see coming out of the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
White is that Barack Obama has no appetite for intervention -- out of | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
the White House. I don't think he does have an appetite. He would be | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
very unlikely to do anything very large. He might feel pressured to | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
act because of the fact that this particular group, this Al-Qaeda | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
inspired group, fits into the strategy he has pursued in Yemen and | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use drone strikes against individual | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
terrorists. So it is possible that the threat of ISIS in the region and | :11:25. | :11:34. | |
the West in general might inspire him to act, but the idea he will do | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
enough, militarily, to transform Iraq from its current state of civil | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
War into something along the lines that Mark was talking about, | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
nation-building diplomacy, a big operation, I don't see President | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
Obama sees his historic mission as having got the United States as out | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
of it. Leave it to the Pacific, perhaps. What would the Kurds like | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
the West to do? First of all, in Kurdistan we face a huge | :12:08. | :12:09. | |
humanitarian crisis. We already have had bought a quarter of a million | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
Syrian refugees and we were struggling to cope with that. And | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
now we have at least double that number of refugees coming from | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
Mosul. First and foremost, we are calling on the international | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
community to help us with that. So we need humanitarian aid? Let's | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
assume we do that in some way, maybe not enough, but what else if | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
anything? I think it is an incumbent on the west and other powers to | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I think the Sunni Arab community, some | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
of whom have joined ISIS and may be supported the uprising, have | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
justified complaints against the federal government. But we need the | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
terrorists out of Iraq. That is first and foremost. And what the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
West can do is not necessarily intervene with boots on the ground, | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
but provide technical assistance, provide intelligence and help the | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
Iraqi army and air force to be more targeted. Can you defend yourselves? | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the disciplined troops. In this | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
situation, I hope they won't be abandoning their post, that is for | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
sure. It is a national cause fires. But we are not armed in the way that | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
the Iraqi army is -- cause for us. We are not armed in the way that | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
ISIS seems to be now they have seized some of the American kit. We | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
are not asking for weapons, but we ask for assistance for all of Iraq | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
to deal with the situation. Mark, this is not just an Iraqi problem. | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
This is a regional conflict, and from the Levant on the shores of the | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
Mediterranean, all the way through to the Gulf, the region is gripped | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
with what is essentially a Sunni and Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
the caveats that Mark bourbon made earlier, it's not quite that | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
straightforward, but the basic divide is exactly that -- Mark | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
Urban. People have been looking for this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
and have been taken by surprise although with hindsight I'm not sure | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
why, that it has begun in Iraq instead. At its most extreme, it | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
risks redrawing the 20th century boundaries of the region in a way | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
which would be highly unstable because it would pit a Shia Muslim | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc and would undo all of the sort of | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
social and economic advance of the last century, so the stakes are | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
suddenly very, very high indeed. Are we seeing the redrawing? The lines | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
were drawn secretly, not far from here, about a mile away, and may | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
have survived through thick and thin. They now look pretty fragile. | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
The map is being redrawn. I think it is true that there is a key factor | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
of a hand to the promotion of the idea of self-determination, and in a | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
way, there is a self determination going on, particularly in the | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
Kurdish region, and perhaps they may end up the big winners in all of | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
this, because they have proceeded with a relatively moderate, | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
reconcilable government. The key thing that the Kurdish region has | :15:31. | :15:39. | |
done. They used to fight the two groups, and now they fight together. | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
What the Sunni Muslims have not done is figure out how to let politics | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
let the side things instead of guns. We need to look clearly and in Syria | :15:50. | :15:59. | |
and Iraq, if there is a Sunni extremist with ISIS that carves out | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
a place for itself, it will be the great irony of the modern era. | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
President Bush said he wanted to go into Iraq to fight terrorism. There | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
was no terrorist. There are now. If in Iraq and Syria together thereat a | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability that threatens the region, the | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
West, the world, we are all going to have to do something about it. | :16:29. | :16:47. | |
The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power. | :16:48. | :16:58. | |
You would not want it on your southern border. Absolutely, we | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
would not. The point we are all making indirectly is that things | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
have changed in Iraq and will never be the same again. Whether Iraq | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
completely disintegrates into three countries, or whether it stays | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
together as one country, but a countries, or whether it stays | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
together as one country, but loose federation, either way, Iraq has | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
changed. It will not go back to what it was. I hope it will change for | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
the better. I think we're at the make or break point for Iraq. Either | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
the political readers -- the political leaders of a right wake up | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
and smell the coffee and put aside their differences or there will be | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
problems. This provides that opportunity, in a very nasty way. If | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
we take it? Yes, and if not, I think this is the end of a rack as we know | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
it. If anything resembling a caliphate emerges, that is very | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
destabilising for the region itself. More so I would suggest than even | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. At some stage, you have | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
to assume that they will be coming for us. That is correct. This is | :18:12. | :18:26. | |
extremely dangerous. The only way forward is for these political | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
groups to talk to each other and find a compromise that allows the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected within or the | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected with an | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
autonomous federal-state. Any support for the government must be | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
premised on that. There is no military solution for this which is | :18:46. | :18:57. | |
in during -- there is no military solution for this. There must be | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
serious political negotiation, not with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
moderates, to form a more representative government. This is | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
the last chance for Iraq. I think we are all saying that that is going to | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
need to be some major western leadership to make some big | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
decisions here for the future of the region. I am concerned that after | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is quite world-weary, quite | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
world-weary. It does not seem to be giving leadership. Certainly we are | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
not seeing that in Europe. I am deeply concerned that we are not | :19:39. | :19:40. | |
going to take the leadership role that needs to be taken. These are | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
big issues. When Britain and France carved up the Middle East, they were | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
world powers, operating as global powers, and without that global | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
leadership by somebody, this is just going to get worse and worse. I | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
think we will leave it there, thank you very much. | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power. | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
It is just under 100 days until the referendum on Scottish independence. | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
So, for once, it'll be a long hot-summer | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
But the campaign isn't just getting heated. | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
In places it's also down-right nasty. When | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
Scotland's best-selling author announced she was giving | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
the unionist cause a million pounds this week, she received | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
Independence supporters online, so-called cybernats, | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
called JK Rowling a traitor and much worse, using a variety of | :20:35. | :20:36. | |
For its part, the Better Together campaign has been accused | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
Even Gordon Brown seems to think so, and this week he criticised | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
Conservative ministers for relying on "threats | :20:45. | :20:45. | |
With the Edinburgh Festival approaching, reports suggest even | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
comedians are now reluctant to engage in the subject because | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
They're both in our Glasgow studio, and they're going head to head. | :21:01. | :21:14. | |
Blair Jenkins, let me come to you first. Why have you and the Better | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
Together campaign and Alex Salmond not done more to slap down the cyber | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
nationalists who are poisoning the debate? Good morning. I think both | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
sides tried to stop the tiny number of people on both sides who are | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
incapable of controlling themselves. We should not get this | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
out of proportion. We are having a fantastic, decent and democratic | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
debate. The people who probably total no more than 100 on both sides | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
who post offensive material or not to be allowed to deflect from that | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
fact. Of course there are nasty people on the Better Together side | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
as well, but are you saying there are as many of those as the cyber | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
nationalists? I have not done the Kent. Lots of people are certainly | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
posting nasty in defensive things to people in the yes campaigners well. | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
I imagine that people do what I do, and block them. You stop them from | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
sending anything further. There is a democratic and in gauging progress | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
going on throughout Scotland. It is characterised by good humour and | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
good debate. We should not get out of proportion and the activities of | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
the number of people. I want to get to Jackie Baillie. The debate is | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
actually pretty good-humoured and you should be doing more about the | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
nasties on your side as well? I think we have reached a new low this | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
week. Despite many people engaging in the politics of the decision and | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
the debate about that, whether we want to retain the best of both | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
worlds are separate from the United Kingdom, what we have seen is the | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
most abusive and vitriolic attack, particularly on women, JK Rowling | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
and a Labour supporter who dared to support the no campaign. When you | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
look at the number of people on social media, there are more from | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
the yes campaign than the no site. We should all be condemning attacks, | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
from whatever quarter they come. This seemed to be connected to the | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
office of the First Minister. What is the evidence for that? There was | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
an e-mail from one of the... I understand about that, but it did | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
not use vile words. It did not, but it repeated the same mistake as on | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
the website. We should be clear that we need to condemn these attacks, | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
but it is not just the water works, it is taking action. There was an | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
IpsosMORI poll this week which was varying testing. It showed the | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
population as a whole, farmer people think that Yes Scotland is running | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
an effective campaign as against Better Together. It is a undecided | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
voters think this by a majority of four 21. Some people are worried | :24:14. | :24:21. | |
about of the campaign. JK Rowling, Scotland's most successful author of | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
all time. She gives ?1 million to the Better Together campaign. She | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
then faces some of the most incredible abuse. I know what it is | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
like because I have had some myself. Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
of the words, it is Sunday morning. Why does Scottish Nationalists | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
culture have such a revolting fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
our views and it is unacceptable if people say offensive things about | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
her or anyone else who voices and opinion in this debate. Who are | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
obese people? When you look at the accounts of some of the people who | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
were posting these things about JK Rowling, they were using the same | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
sort of language about film stars and football stars. This was just | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
part of their language on Twitter. How often has Alex Salmond condemned | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
the cyber nationalists? Very often. Everyone in the campaign hands. By | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
common consent, Yes Scotland is running a thoroughly positive | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
campaign, much more positive than Better Together. Jackie Baillie, it | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
hardly helps matters when Alistair Darling, who runs your campaign, | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il and North Korea. That hardly | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
elevates the debate? I think we need to elevate the debate. There are | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
less than a hundred days to go. It is a massive decision. We need to | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
elevate the debate beyond attacks. I think there is much more that Yes | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
Scotland and the SNP can do. You have made that point. Why are you | :26:04. | :26:12. | |
running a campaign based on fear? The codename of your campaign is | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
even project fear. It is threats. You cannot have the pound, there | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
will be no shipbuilding. You will be flooded by immigrants. Why are you | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
so negative? I am not negative at all and neither is the campaign. The | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
campaign has asked questions and I think it is legitimate to ask | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
questions of the people proposing such a fundamental change. People | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
care about the economy, their jobs, their families. What would happen to | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
them if they leave the rest of the United Kingdom. I think it is | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
legitimate to ask questions. I refuse to be asked of | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
scaremongering. People deserve answers. The yes campaign is equally | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
guilty of some of the most outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you | :27:02. | :27:10. | |
are both scaremongering. Blair Jenkins, the First Minister said of | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
the cyber nationalists, that they are just Daft folk, as if they were | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
mischievous little children. It is worse than that. When you look at | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
what they say, they are twisted, perhaps even evil minds. I would not | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
disagree with his comments, but they are directed at just a small number | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
of people. The story of this campaign is not the story of what | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
people are saying on Twitter. Around Scotland, lots of people are getting | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
engaged in debate to have been tuned out of the political process. Today, | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
we have 47% support for the yes campaign. The movement in the | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
campaign is towards yes. People know we have a better campaign, a vision | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
for Scotland. The latest poll of polls does not show that. Both | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
sides, you always take the opinion polls that show you in the best | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
light. All politicians do that. Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
just negative, it is patronising. You make dubious claims that Scots | :28:16. | :28:24. | |
would be ?1400 better off by staying in the union, and then you say that | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
the kids use the money to scoff 280 hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
The fate of the nation is in your hands and that is the best you can | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
do? I think you will find that the campaign is something that we are | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
taking the message to people. Then why are you talking about hotdogs? I | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
do not. The campaign did. We are taking a positive message to people | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
across Scotland about the benefits of the United Kingdom. We believe we | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
are stronger and more secure and more stable, being part of that | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
family of nations that is the United Kingdom. At the same time, we have | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
the strange and power over things like education and transport. I | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
understand that. I am not doing the issues today, I am talking about the | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
tone of the campaign. I have one very important question. Who would | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
you supporting last night in the England-Italy match? I was not | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
watching the game. I would be delighted to see England do well in | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
this tournament. I have Argentina in the office sweepstake. I have to | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
keep some attention on them, but I would be delighted to seeing Clint | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
do well. That is because you think it will help your campaign. It will | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie? I was supporting England. I was also | :29:54. | :29:54. | |
supporting Portugal. Now most of you probably missed last | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
night's football match between England and Italy because | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
you wanted to get an early night and England lost | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
despite a plucky effort, I'm told. But even Westminster is | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
in the grip of World Cup fever and with speculation | :30:12. | :30:13. | |
about the fitness of each political party's team we sent Adam out to | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
tackle some of the big players. Well, this is | :30:17. | :30:23. | |
the closest I'll get to Rio. This year everybody seems to have | :30:24. | :30:35. | |
gone a bit mad Belize, football stickers. Let's see who I will get. | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for these. George Osborne? That is | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
because we leapt on the bandwagon and made Alan political stickers. | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
They're hotter than a Brazilian barbecue. | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
Sunday politics political stickers. We have one of you, Norman. Would | :30:54. | :31:03. | |
you like it? Do you want to start collecting, Bob? Would you like a | :31:04. | :31:05. | |
packet? collecting, Bob? Would you like a | :31:06. | :31:06. | |
Thank you. No album, I'm afraid. collecting, Bob? Would you like a | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
Thank you. No album, I've got Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
two of the Prime Minister. -- next to Theresa. I am sure Michael has | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
Theresa in her stick around, and vice versa. | :31:27. | :31:27. | |
These Tory ones are proving very popular | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
since she fell out with him out how to handle extremism in schools. | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
And there's been open speculation about him taking on him in | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Then there are rumours of a reshuffle of the whole Tory album. | :31:36. | :31:44. | |
Do you think there will be any swapping in the Tory leadership | :31:45. | :31:54. | |
soon? Who knows? David Cameron has also got to replace the EU | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is standing down. | :31:58. | :31:58. | |
Does he go with the favourite the former health secretary | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
Or the grassroots choice, Martin Callanan, the Tories old | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
Or does he rehabilitate Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
Do you fancy being European Commissioner? I would rather be | :32:09. | :32:22. | |
spending the money on the world's poor and spending it well. Glad to | :32:23. | :32:24. | |
hear it. Happy collecting. Right, there must be some Labour | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
stickers out there. You don't want to swap Ed Balls any | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
of the others? Can't I keep them all? This is almost the perfect | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
team. There have been grumblings | :32:39. | :32:38. | |
about the fitness of the Shadow And Ed Miliband's got a kicking | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
in Liverpool after posing I'm told grown men are meeting up | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
in pubs for sticker swaps - With Danny Finkelstein - | :32:47. | :32:57. | |
Tory peer and Times columnist, He would be the card I would not | :32:58. | :33:10. | |
want to trade. Do people want to trade him in? I don't think anybody | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
wants to trade him in at the moment. He is the best person to lead the | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
Labour party and will lead us into the next election. There's been a | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
lot about Michael Gove, and he's very combative. That's been a huge | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
strength as an education Secretary, despite the fact it's brought in | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
trouble. I would think the prime minister would tell him not to get | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
himself into peripheral battles at the moment but stick to what has | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
been successful. I haven't got Nick Clegg, but I got me. Controversy | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I need to give away me in return for | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
Nick Clegg. That would be far better. There you are. | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
Some local parties are holding meetings about his leadership, | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
but at one in Cambridge this week they voted to stick with him. | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
You have got a Euro Commissioner. Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed | :33:59. | :34:08. | |
Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do that? What is the significance of | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
that? Very significant. Happy collecting. | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
These beauties are popping up everywhere, but sadly they won't | :34:18. | :34:19. | |
Adam is still doing the samba around Westminster as I speak. | :34:20. | :34:29. | |
I'm joined by three journalists who've been | :34:30. | :34:31. | |
furiously swapping stickers throughout the show, they certainly | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
weren't allowed to stay up to watch the football, it's Nick Watt, | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
We will talk about Labour after the break, and I want to concentrate on | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
the Tories, but the moment, Nick, senior Tories are saying privately | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
that they might win next May. They are beginning to dream the dream. So | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
why are they doing all this jockeying? I think the jockeying for | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
the leadership is about a year old. What stoped it up was when Theresa | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
gave a speech to the conference, and people said she was doing it just in | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
case, when things were not looking too good. She is not on manoeuvres. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
I think it was a policy row that drove the differences with Michael | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
Gove. But Michael Gove is on manoeuvres, and he is trying to | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
protect George Osborne from, he believes, a serious threat from | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa. It is quite self-indulgent when you | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
are a couple of points behind, the economy is going your way, to be | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
involved in this sort of stuff. Extraordinary. It shows the toxic | :35:39. | :35:50. | |
disease that gnaws at the entrails of the Tory party, and Cameron is | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
their great asset. He is more popular than the party, he bridges | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
the gap is, and he has an extraordinary dissemble and some | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
pretending to be this moderate while never the lens -- nevertheless | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
leading the most far right wing government we have had since the | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
war, and that has been a brilliant piece of political | :36:10. | :37:59. | |
Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the | :38:00. | :38:14. | |
programme: Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson recommends taking the | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
referendum attack to Westminster's door. He'll be joining us live to | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
explain what he means. The Crown Office welcomes a fall in | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
prosecutions for football-related sectarianism, but the law is still | :38:22. | :38:23. | |
explain what he means. The Crown Office welcomes a fall in | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
prosecutions for football-related sectarianism, but the law is still | :38:27. | :38:28. | |
proving controversial. We have lots more that we can do to bring tension | :38:29. | :38:39. | |
and defence at football games. This legislation was pushing in the wrong | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
direction. I would like to CBS FA -- S F a taker for greater role. | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
If you went back in time to 1982 and told the SNP leader | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
Gordon Wilson that 32 years on there would be an SNP majority government | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
in a Scottish Parliament holding a referendum on independence, he would | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
probably say, in his usual characteristic way, | :38:58. | :38:58. | |
During Wilson's time at the top, the party was divided | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
But foundations were laid for later success | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
and the former leader is fully participating in today's debate. | :39:09. | :39:10. | |
We'll speak to him live in a moment, but first here's Andrew Kerr. | :39:11. | :39:19. | |
A career defining moment for Gordon Wilson's leadership. I am now | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
convinced that the party will not recover its unity until all | :39:27. | :39:35. | |
organised groups are banned. The 79 Group walk-out. Of which Alex | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
Salmond was a member. The SNP group was struggling. Professor Murray | :39:41. | :39:49. | |
Pettit was there that day. He was very courteous, very clear-cut, and | :39:50. | :39:58. | |
always working to conciliate, to bring with them, but without | :39:59. | :40:09. | |
actually compromising to much extent. Not a very flexible | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
character, but flexible enough to strike a delicate balance between | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
consensus and leadership. The professor says that Gordon Wilson | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
now and then is an original thinker, which leads to different views from | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
the current leadership. He suggests keeping an open mind in the EU, | :40:30. | :40:43. | |
Alex Salmond is used to having what he says goes. When someone with the | :40:44. | :40:53. | |
stature of Gordon Wilson comes up with contrary views, that will not | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
go down terribly well with the leadership. They will smile and try | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
to brush it off, but deep down he can be a thorn in the flesh. That | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
could be a description that Gordon Wilson now relishes after his own | :41:07. | :41:14. | |
turbulence time as leader. Listening to that is Gordon Wilson. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
Let us move onto your thoughts on the way that the campaign is going | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
the moment. I am curious as to what you have made of the way that the | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
Scottish Government has handled things this week. It has been very | :41:28. | :41:38. | |
difficult for them. I think it turns on the technicality, basically, | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
first of all, as to whether or not the Ministerial Code was breached. | :41:44. | :41:45. | |
If that was breached then the resignation should the excepted. | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
Also, of course... His resignation has not been tendered. No, because | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
it has not been offered, and it has not yet established that it was a | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
breach of Ministerial Code. Do you think that he should go? Only if he | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
has breached the code, which is illegal requirement. And if the | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
story becomes greater than that of the SNP Government. It is well-known | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
that PR men in government have to leave if their profile... But you | :42:17. | :42:25. | |
say that it is established that he has broken the code, but if he is | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
not tendering his resignation and Alex Salmond is not sacking him, who | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
has expected to establish if the court has been broken and not? Black | :42:34. | :42:43. | |
--. Normally it is the permanent secretary. I can apply my experience | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
over the years, that if you secretary. I can apply my experience | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
over the years, that have got a big story and it is going on and on and | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
on then you have got to deal with it. Equally it may lapse because | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
there are other things happening. So you think that he should stay unless | :43:02. | :43:11. | |
it becomes too big a new story. If he has breached the code then he has | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
to go. As he has not breached the code but there is a PR problem then | :43:16. | :43:24. | |
he may need to go. If neither of these apply then Campbell Gunn | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
should stay. I'm interested on the comments on the debate from Hillary | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
Clinton, the Pope, President Obama. It sounded at first that Scotland | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
was becoming a pariah amongst these nations. But I think the Pope | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
particularly was studiously neutral. It is a very interesting thing, | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
isn't it, that presidents go to our land and to London and they never | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
come to Scotland. I was taken by President Obama's remark. He said | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
that from the outside things seem to work. The problem is that from the | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
inside the union is not working, the Scots are suffering and it is hardly | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
surprising that they will treat this shifty attitude from President | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
Obama, who has no doubt been prepped by Cameron, with the respect it | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
requires. So you think you should not have been involved? He is | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
perfectly entitled to be involved, that is up to him. But the Americans | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
have to look to the future. They have got Britain like Joe Yule, or a | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
puppet on a string, written does everything that they want. Why | :44:37. | :44:55. | |
should they want separation? You described him as shifty? He was | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
under pressure to say something, he had been asked to, and body else | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
knew that, which is not the sort of predicament that a President of the | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
United States wants to be in. He is just doing the young boy a favour. | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
In the document you produced this week, which is one of your | :45:12. | :45:20. | |
occasional missives on what you think the yes camp should be doing. | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
You say that they have to begin the initiative. But some of the poll | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
suggests that they have been doing just that. Yes, I am elated by | :45:29. | :45:37. | |
that, but do not forget that we still have to get past the 50% mark, | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
and not only that I would like to see the momentum build up so that we | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
go well past the 50% mark. Believe you me, if it is a narrow majority | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
then London will want a rerun and will try to manipulate that into | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
doing so. Do not accept that the London politicians are natural | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
Democrats when it comes to Scotland. Scotland they regard as their | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
possession, their colony, and they will not let it go unless they are | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
forced to. But what you think the Yes campaign needs to do that it is | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
not doing now? Two things. When people go to the ballot box in | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
September, they will do so with many different reasons. But I think that | :46:21. | :46:27. | |
at the point of the decision, some people will have to decide on the | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
question of identity, where they see their future. In Britain, are in an | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
independent Scotland. On the yes side, it has two project a vision of | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
a better Scotland... But Alex Salmond would say that he does | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
little else. Mac I do not know. I think that my job is to persuade | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
Alex Salmond to up his game of it. The vision thing is very important. | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
I am sorry to pretend to be Alex Salmond, but if I were him... Loom | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
at your doing a very good example. I think that I would say to you, for | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
heaven 's sake, I was out the other day making a speech about how | :47:08. | :47:15. | |
exports in Scotland could go up under an independent Scotland. It is | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
coming from a number of sources, not just orchestrated through the SNP | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
Government. What we need is greater input from other leaders in Scotland | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
who favour a yes but have ideas as to what should be done, but the | :47:29. | :47:38. | |
other side of the coin, we have to point out that Britain is not | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
necessarily a good thing. How can you be a member of a country with an | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
850 strong parasitic house of lords, non-elected, deciding the laws... | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
But the SNP never stop banging on about this stuff. Not by my | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
standards. I think I may be slightly more tough than the SNP when it | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
comes to hammering London. And they should also look at the economic | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
issues, because that is the thing that will determine the votes of | :48:09. | :48:20. | |
lots of people. Jim Sillars rates on the same website that you call | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
offer. He said that Alex Salmond was a liability. I think he was wrong. | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
Sadly I was in the Middle East when that happened. I'm asking if you | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
agree with him. No, I do not think so. If you took him out of the | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
equation they would be a huge gap. But the opposition are saying that | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
if you vote yes then you are voting for the SNP and the SNP Government, | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
whereas, this is Scotland's referendum and Alex Salmond is a | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
servant of the people in this respect. So he has the most | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
substantial role to play as First Minister, but going back to my seem, | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
we are required to orchestrated much more broadly. You would prefer if an | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
independent Scotland had its own currency. Does it concern you that | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
there is no plan B on currency from the Scottish Government, that there | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
is just this and systems over and over again that the Unionist parties | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
are lying when they say that they will not contemplate a currency | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
union? Do you think that the Scottish Government should, in | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
fact, not just have a plan B but be putting some mechanisms in place in | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
the eventuality that there is a Yes vote? I expect that there is quite a | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
bit of thinking going on inside the fiscal commission for Scotland on | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
these issues. Let me put it to you in my capacity as a former | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
politician. If the SNP had come up with plan B, plan C, Landy, etc, it | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
would have subjected them to immediate hostile criticism. The | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
fact of the matter, and it is a question, I believe that it is a | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
bluff on the part of Westminster, but if not then Scotland will adopt | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
the same currency as sterling and use it. And even then, you see, even | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
if there were a fiscal is on the Red Hat to be a period of five or ten | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
years where we were within the pound sterling area and then we could have | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
our own currency, we could float it, but only after consultation and only | :50:22. | :50:30. | |
after it is observe the play -- after she is beneficial to Scottish | :50:31. | :50:42. | |
business. The financial markets will react to the reality of the | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
situation that the trading position will be stronger. So, I don't | :50:48. | :50:56. | |
think... The problem for London is because if you take away the | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
Scottish exports the balance of trade immediately diminishes and the | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
financial markets will have two look at that. There has to be | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
Corporation. One thing you said was people should not take so if Labour | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
promises from the Unionist parties for more devolution. Why not? A lot | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
of the Yes campaign on devolution seems to assume the other side of | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
the debate are lying. The track record is that from 1945 onwards | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
there have been promises from London being broken again and again and | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
again. The only react to the pressures of votes from within | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
Scotland, if there is pressure they give powers but remember Enoch | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
Powell said that power devolved is power retained. A few months ago | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
they passed an order taking away energy powers from the Scottish | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
government. Without much consultation... They can do what | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
they like and if Scotland votes no, Scotland will be defenceless, in a | :52:04. | :52:11. | |
skilful way they will start fitting Scottish institutions and secondly | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
people don't really know that the next round of public expenditure | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
cuts, 25 billion, is down the road and the day after the next | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
Westminster general election it will come into effect. That is something | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
which should exercise our minds because a lot of the things the | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
Scottish Parliament under Labour and SNP which people like will be under | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
pressure. Tuition fees may have to go, NHS may be like being this one. | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
You can spin those out of thin air but the point is... Cuts are a | :52:49. | :52:59. | |
reality. That is a different issue from devolution. People say why | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
should we believe them? I have an advantage on you because I spent | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
some years on the Isle of Man and they are an autonomous government, | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
they toe the line on many things, hardly pay income taxed, they have | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
managed well. They have 75,000 people. Scotland will still be taxed | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
by Westminster. It is a matter of experience throughout the world you | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
get these situations. The Scots would be foolish to ignore it. Thank | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
you for joining us. As national teams are playing | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
in Brazil for the World Cup, here , two years on from the introduction | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
of controversial legislation aimed at criminalising religious hatred | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
in Scottish football, calls This week, | :53:44. | :53:44. | |
figures released by the Crown Office showed there were fewer sectarian | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
incidents recorded at the season Thanks, it says, | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
in part to the offensive behaviour at football act, which gave | :53:52. | :53:59. | |
prosecutors additional powers to crack down on sectarian songs | :54:00. | :54:01. | |
and abuse at matches and online. At the same time figure released to | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
this programme show more than 70% of charges under the act were | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
concentrated in just three areas. This, the shame game of 2011 is seen | :54:08. | :54:24. | |
by many as the catalyst for Scotland's newest football | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
legislation. , crowbar has to be a winner in Glasgow tonight and the | :54:32. | :54:39. | |
winner takes it all. The reputation of Scottish football was the loser | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
on the night, it was agreed offensive behaviour had to be | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
tackled but the solution was controversial. How we police | :54:49. | :54:55. | |
football games is no different now than it has been four years or 20 | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
years ago. We have lots more we can do to bring tension and the | :55:02. | :55:10. | |
legislation is pushing it in the wrong direction. The act aims to | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
criminalise religious hatred in football. Some still feel the closer | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
scrutiny and intensified policing implies and a comfortable distrust | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
of fans. Immediately before this bill, we had a situation where | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
policing in Scotland was mature, effective and was different than it | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
had been in the 1970s and 80s. Police by consent is light touch. | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
Where we have got to now is policing by confrontation and control and it | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
is a horrible place. There is agreement that fans are not the | :55:48. | :55:56. | |
problem. The act is dealing with the misbehaving minority. Figures show | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
over the last 12 months, the number prosecuted for offensive behaviour | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
has gone down by 24%. The majority had affiliations with Celtic or | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
Rangers. Figures released show since the act was introduced, 469 people | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
have been charged with offences under the act. 338, 72%, which | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
charged in the greater Glasgow, Ayrshire and Lanarkshire areas. | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
There were four prosecutions in Dumfries Galloway. Most offences | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
related to singing or speech in or around football grounds. The chief | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
legal officer believes the reduction in offences compared to last year is | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
thanks to the act. I am confident that it is needed. And I'm confident | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
it has been used appropriately. I am confident that in time, as we see | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
from the figures, there has been an improvement in behaviour at football | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
matches. But it is only the second year. I am aware of the fact there | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
are old firm matches. We want to see the effect. The lord advocate says | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
the majority of fans can enjoy matches without being affected by | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
the legislation. There is concern elsewhere that the culture | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
surrounding the game has all ready been altered. It makes people more | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
frightened to be able to speak their minds. And is in its people's sense | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
you have a free society where you can discuss things all say things. | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
Another major change is it is now encouraging football fans to play | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
the offence card so you will find more and more Celtic and Rangers and | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
other fans phoning the police on one another. Despite challenges from | :57:52. | :58:00. | |
fans and clubs, a review of the legislation will not happen before | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
August next year. After another football season and, of course, | :58:05. | :58:43. | |
major fixtures at the ballot box. The rank-and-file police officers | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
think it is vague and not using the legislation and we don't have the | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
old firm matches which has been a focal point. You give the act no | :58:58. | :59:05. | |
credit? Lets look at the experts, the churches, well-meaning fans, the | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
campaign groups, the rank and file police officers, concerns about the | :59:10. | :59:15. | |
act. We all think rather than playing politics, let's recognise | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
there is an issue and we need to take action. It requires not my | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
legislation but the right legal framework and funding and | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
appropriate education. We have seen funding cut. Sandra, what do you | :59:30. | :59:36. | |
make that it is unrelated? It is related in the falling numbers. The | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
act is working. The 24% drop is proof. He makes assumptions, talking | :59:43. | :59:50. | |
about the fans and groups who are not supportive but many people are | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
very supportive of the legislation and it is proof it is working. When | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
you talk about coming forward in 2015, we must remember that was a | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
Justice committee put forward an amendment to the bill to ask for | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
2015. It has been accepted -- accepted by the Scottish government | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
that there will be a report. I believe... Next year, you will sit | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
down and look at it and will say this is fantastic, let's keep it | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
going or you will do what you did with the tax and shove it to one | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
side. People asked to put forward a report and the Scottish government | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
says, we will take it on board, you need to look at the facts and | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
figures, 24% drop in offences, it is working. It isn't unreasonable to | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
say let's give this a chance and look at it next year. What is the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
difference? You can have the argument next year but it isn't | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
unreasonable to give it a chance. There needs to be a funding | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
commitment. Do we have a commitment of funding will stay in place? | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
You want rid of this law, I suggest Sandra has a point when she says | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
let's review it in 2015 as the government said they would do. How | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
can you disagree? Your macro all opposition parties united in the | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
parliament to say the legislation was the wrong thing and sent the | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
wrong message. The campaign groups as well who expressed concern about | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
the legislation. The right approach is to repeal the act. Opposition | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
parties on the Justice committee agreed this. It is untrue to say | :01:45. | :01:53. | |
that everyone apart from the government are for or against. There | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
were opposition parties, members who work for it. There has to be an | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
exception is that in terms of the faith and trust of the fans, the | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
majority of well-meaning fans, do not have faith and trust in the | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
deflation. The police officers have expressed concern. The Sheriff | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
expressed concern with the legislation. Let's get away from the | :02:16. | :02:26. | |
legal stuff, what do you make of the point that we want racial abuse and | :02:27. | :02:34. | |
sexual abuse and it is not acceptable but in a way laws like | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
this encourage people to take offence. You hear a song and you are | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
a fan and you say, I am shocked to the core, I bet find the police and | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
that isn't necessarily what you want to be in courage. What he was saying | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
is the assumption was it was tip for tat. If you say something offensive, | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
it is offensive and the law is here to stop that. It isn't spelt out | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
what it is. Not all of the football fans... There are a number of | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
groups. If someone says it is offensive and the language is | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
offensive, you need to look at it seriously. Should Scotland be | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
putting up with that? The groups who are saying others are offensive are | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
in the category you mentioned. There are different points from different | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
groups. This is the confusion. The law has added confusion. We have | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
breach of the peace legislation or ready. This is working. It isn't | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
working! To be continued. Thank you both very much. | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. | :04:00. | :04:00. | |
Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr. | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
A new technique for detecting bowel cancer is to be | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
About 20,000 patients in Tayside, Fife, Grampian | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
and Glasgow health board areas will be offered "scope screening", | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
The 15-minute procedure can detect polyps that could | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
The Queen's baton will continue the Scottish leg of its journey today | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
Up to four-thousand people will carry it across the country | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
in the run up to the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
Today it travels around West Lothian taking in | :04:37. | :04:38. | |
Linlithgow Palace where a series of events are planned. | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
The Wimbledon champions Andy Murray and Marion Bartoli are | :04:43. | :04:44. | |
among the big names taking part in the national "Rally for Bally" | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
The Ukrainian-born former British number one, who grew up in Scotland, | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
died of liver cancer last month, at the age of 30. | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Murray will be at the fundraising rally | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
in Birmingham while an event will be held at Perth tennis club where | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
That's the news let's now take a look at the weather forecast, | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
A lot of fine, brakes, dry weather around. We start off with a fair bit | :05:09. | :05:27. | |
of cloud around. That will thin and break in the afternoon, allowing | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
good spells of sunshine to get going. Always a bit more in the way | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
of cloud hanging on at East Coast. Rarely do get the best of the | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
sunshine, towards Glasgow in the south-west, 21 or even 22 Celsius, | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
and just the odd light shower. That is the forecast. | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
Now back to Gordon. Both sides in the independence | :05:49. | :06:10. | |
debate marked 100 days to go to the referendum. As former Prime Minister | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
Gordon Brown cold for David Cameron to debate with Alex Salmond on TV | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
and head of the vote. There has been a rise in greenhouse gas emissions | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
in 2012. It is the third year in a row that the government target has | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
been mist. Former US Secretary of State Hillary | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
Clinton said she hoped Scotland did not become independent. We will see | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
what the people of Scotland decide, but I would say that it would be a | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
loss for both sides, but I do not have a vote. | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
The First Minister said the full powers of independence with this | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
economy. Campaigners in the yes and no camps have welcomed comments from | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
the Pope. Pope Francis told a Catalonian newspaper that states | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
breaking away should be considered on a case-by-case basis. | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
Let us take a look at what is coming up in the week ahead. | :07:12. | :07:20. | |
I'm joined by George Kerevan, and Kirsty Scott. Let us talk about the | :07:21. | :07:32. | |
polls. We have now had three polls in three days, which seemed to show | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
that there is a bit of an uptake in the support for the yes side. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
Anybody in the yes camp reading the newspapers this morning would have | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
been smelling over their cornflakes. Within a couple of points over 50% | :07:47. | :08:01. | |
going either way. I noticed one commentator saying that it could go | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
either way. The issue is gender. Clearly there is a majority of men | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
in Scotland, well beyond margins of error, who are going to vote yes. | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
The gap or the yes campaigners with women. And it is whether the whole | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
argument over JK Rowling is going to influence voters. What you make of | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
these polls? I would like to see the polls that might next week after | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
this week. They do show a narrowing. I believe that the latest one, they | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
did it after JK Rowling's announcement. You think that she | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
will have very much influence on women? I do not think that JK | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
Rowling dead, but it is an issue for women and a large part of that is | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
that it is a very male, very competent campaign -- combative | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
campaign. That is pitting woman. Not so much JK Rowling, but... Do you | :09:05. | :09:21. | |
think that the whole row with Campbell Gunn is making matters | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
worse? The virtual that was heaped on this woman, it makes me | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
uncomfortable. He is a good man, I do not think that it excuses what he | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
did, I do not think it was part of any orchestrated campaign, but I | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
think it sends a message that that kind of underhand tactic to | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
undermine people is oche. I think that there was a lot of misogynistic | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
comments online. I would be very interested to see in the polls what | :09:59. | :10:11. | |
women are seeing next week. Do you think he should stay or go? If this | :10:12. | :10:20. | |
role than next week then I would imagine he would fall on his sword. | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
This is not about whether he stays or goes, it is about how women | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
perceive that. I feel sorry for Campbell Gunn, all he did was to | :10:31. | :10:39. | |
pick up points in the media where issues were being pushed the wrong | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
way. It is quite clear in the relaunch, yet another one child | :10:44. | :11:03. | |
better together, Clare Lally was being presented as not just an | :11:04. | :11:12. | |
ordinary mother but a member of that campaign. She is an ordinary mother. | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
Campbell Gunn was saying that he was correcting a mistake. He was trying | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
to undermine our viewpoint that was different. One suspects that even if | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
Campbell Gunn had not intervened in this, Clare Lally would have got | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
dogs abuse from some sections of the cybernats anyway. The Rhino | :11:38. | :11:45. | |
questions about it for me, if people are abusive to women we should root | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
them out. We need to do something about it, and I blame editors for | :11:49. | :11:59. | |
now pitting at the end of columns on the Internet, without pitting the | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
name and the address, as they used to do, they put anonymous comments. | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
I think we have to edit that. Ruth Davidson saying that if there is | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
independence then you might be in favour of a currency union. Question | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
was put her and it was very much qualified. She said, I want us to | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
stay in the union, and she also said that she thought that an independent | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
currency would be the best thing for an independent country, but I think | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
it has been overplayed. But I can understand why people are jumping on | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
it and seeing, this all goes to show. We still do not know what is | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
green to happen in terms of currency, less than 100 days now. I | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
think that Ruth Davidson is a breath of fresh air for the Tory party. She | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
has taken the Tory party under demolition further than the Labour | :13:00. | :13:08. | |
Party -- devolution. You organised and air show. Yes, last year, the | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
air show was taking off again this year. What you think should happen | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
to the airport? It is a great airport, we should keep it open. It | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
would be great for freight and Scotland gets control of airline | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
taxes, if we can reduce our taxes the way that the Irish have, | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
Northern Ireland have volt control -- devolved control. This should | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
keep it open as long as they changed their local! | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
That is all from us this week. I will be back at the scene came next | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
week. From all of us, goodbye. | :13:56. | :13:57. |