13/07/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


13/07/2014

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news and debate. Andrew Neil is joined by Scotland's deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon to discuss Scotland's referendum.


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Sunday Politics. Just two months to go until Scotland decides whether it

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should stay in work with the UK. At the campaign has for the final

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furlong, what are the issues an argument that will determine the

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result? Nicola Sturgeon joins me live will stop David Cameron has

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scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday. Many of those tipped for

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promotion are women. At efforts to promote diversity in public life

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barely started, or have they already gone too far?

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I don't know whether to support Germany or Argentina in the game

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tonight? Fear not. We are bringing you a political guide to the World

:01:19.:01:19.

Cup. Coming up on

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Sunday Politics Scotland: Plans to establish

:01:22.:01:22.

the UK's first spaceport will be A number of sites

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in Scotland could be in the frame. Yes, eat your heart out, ITV,

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because for top football analysis we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen,

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and Alan Shearer. And

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for top political analysis you may as well tune in to them too because

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all we could come up with is Nick David Cameron will reshuffle

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his cabinet on Tuesday. The Sunday papers are full

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of stories telling us who'll be in and who'll be out,

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though they don't really know. The Mail on Sunday has one

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of the more eye-catching lines, reporting that former defence

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secretary and right-winger Liam Fox is in line for a return to

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the political front line. But there's general agreement that

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women will do well and some of the old men

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in suits guard will do badly. It's good to make parliament

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Davis speaking to this programme. But you've got to do it

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in a way that doesn't create injustices, and you can't put people

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in a job who can't do the job. And I've seen that too over

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the last 20 years, people being accelerated too far too fast

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and they come to a screeching halt where they have to

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catch up with themselves. I am not going to give an example.

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Is this not a bit cynical? He is going to promote these women into

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cabinet positions, but they will not be able to do anything. I am

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sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It is an un-written pact in that the

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media and the government have a great interest in talking it up. The

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government says, haven't we refreshed ourselves? Generally it

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doesn't refresh the government. David Cameron wants to send out a

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new signal. You're going to see the old guard getting a P 45 and you

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will see a lot of women come in and a lot of younger men. We will find

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there will be a lot of resignations. A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I

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told you 18 months ago, I want to move on. Because the Conservatives

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have this perception of not being very good with women and not being

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good with black and ethnic minority voters, they are going to want to do

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something about that. Why did he not do it before? This reshuffle might

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be the triumph of the a list. A lot of the women coming through the

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ranks have been from the a list which was a half measure because

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they knew they could not bring all of them in. You are going to see

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more women but that is a result of a long-term strategy. David Cameron is

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not the world's most raging feminist. He is doing this for

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practical reasons. He knows he has an image problem for the party and

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he has to solve it. He was stung by that picture of the all-male bench

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at Prime Minister's Questions because visibly it gave you the

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problem that you have been talking about. I do not think he has allowed

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it to be all-male since that embarrassing image. I can understand

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the criticism made of this approach if it was the case that all the

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women being promoted by talentless but you have to be very harsh to

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look at them and say that they would have much less to offer than the

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likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be pro-feminist. The tests for David

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Cameron is that having raised expectations he has to give them

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substantial jobs. They have to be given departments to run or big

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portfolios to carry. If they are given media campaign positions in

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the run-up to the election it looks perfunctorily. He is under some

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trouble to perhaps suggest a female commissioner to the European Union

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Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has made clear that if he proposes a

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woman candidate they will get a better job. Saying they would like

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ten out of the 28 to be women. We are going to get the name of the

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British candidate at the same time as the reshuffle. The first

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face-to-face meeting, he will be able to put a name. There are other

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names in the frame. People like Archie Norman. That come from? His

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name is in the frame. There would be great scepticism of giving it to

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Andrew Lansley. People would think he was the man who mucked up the

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reform of the NHS. Who is it going to be? Either a woman or a man. I

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would not be surprised if they go for someone believe dynamic. Someone

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who would square the party. Would that not mean a by-election? It

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might. She is a high profile Eurosceptic. She is a very competent

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former banker. It would be the smart choice. I have no idea but my

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favourite rumour is Michael Howard. That had some legs for a while.

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The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street predict with confidence that the PM

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is going to promote more women in his cabinet reshuffle.

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The move can be seen as part of a move across British public life

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to do more to make our institutions less male and less white.

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But as the list of schemes to encourage diversity

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grows ever-longer, have we abandoned the idea of appointment by merit?

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Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for new trains. It does not get more

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macho than the Crossrail project. When Crossrail looked at the

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construction industry they realise that less than 20% was made up

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construction industry they realise women and they asked, can we fix it?

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They are trying with a recruitment drive that has brought in female

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engineers like this woman. She even has a tunnel named after her. Having

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more female engineers and construction brings a bigger range

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of opinions, a bigger range of ideas, more diversity, into the

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industry, and makes it better as a whole. It is the issue being

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grappled in another male dominated workplace, the Cabinet. There is

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about to be a reach shuffle and the rumour is David Cameron is going to

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promote a lot of female ministers. It was a lack of promotion that

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annoyed Harriet Harman this week. She claimed Gordon Brown did not

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make her Deputy Prime Minister because she was a woman. It was

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strange that in a hard-fought highly contested election to be deputy

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leader of the Labour Party, and having won against men in the

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Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy leader of the Labour Party I

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discovered that I was not to be appointed as Deputy Prime Minister.

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For women in this country, no matter how able they are, the matter how

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hard they might work, they are still not equal. There are initiatives to

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make the world feel more equal. In the City the EU wants a quarter for

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women in the boardroom but that goal of making 40% of the top floor

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female. At the BBC the boss of the TV division says no panel show

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should ever be all-male. In the ever glamorous movie business the British

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film Institute announced their new thematic system to get lottery

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funding projects improving diversity on screen and off and helping social

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mobility. Employers like Crossrail are not allowed to positively

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discriminate but under the quality act of 2010 if two candidate for a

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job are just as good you are allowed to base your decision on

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characteristics like race, sexuality and gender. Some worry it has

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chipped away at the idea of hiring on merit. A woman and three men

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going for a job, two of the men are really good and the woman is not

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quite as good but she gets the job anyway. That will create injustice,

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a feeling that she did not deserve the job, resentment. It does not

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advance equality in society at all. On this project they want to leave a

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concrete legacy of a more diverse construction industry. The question

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is, what tools do you use when it comes to the rest of society?

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I'm joined now by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown,

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a columnist for the Independent, and by Munira Mirza, the deputy

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mayor of London responsible for education and culture.

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Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches though. Should David Cameron be

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promoting women? He is going to do it anyway. He should have a long

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time ago. It does not feel quite right that a few months before the

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election it would do the party a lot of good to be seen as a party

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properly reflective of the entire population. He should promote women

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because they are women? I think he should think about lots of different

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factors, whether the people he wants promote have proven themselves in

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their current reefs, whether they are good performers in the media,

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whether they represent different parts of the party, but the main

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principle is to promote on basis of merit. There are many talented women

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who fill that description. It should be that merit is the important thing

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rather than what you were born with. The thing about positive

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discrimination as it flies in the face of that kind of principle. You

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are shaking your head. We have always had positive discrimination.

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Men of a certain class have appointed in their own image because

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they feel most comfortable with that. We have had unspoken positive

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discrimination in this country and every other country throughout

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history. We are asking as women, all minorities, let us get into the same

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game. What do you say? You cannot solve the racism or the sexism of

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the past by more racism and sexism. It is not the past. There are

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complex reasons why a smaller number of women will appear in certain

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industries. It has a lot to do with childcare, education, expected. You

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cannot short cut that by setting a target. That is not how you achieve

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equality. Things are changing and more women are appearing in

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engineering and so on but it will take time. My worry is that these

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kinds of measures are counter-productive and undermine the

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perception that women can do it on their own merit rather

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counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it than

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because they need a helping hand. It is not a helping hand. It is to say,

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we are as good as men and these hidden barriers. Dot. Either they

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are not as good or they do not want it, which is just how we persuade

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are not as good or they do not want it, which ourselves that it is not

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happening, or there are barriers. How we judge meritocracy is at the

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heart of it. Are lots of industries won there are not that many women,

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such as engineering. We need more engineers generally. I think it is

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fine to try to encourage more women to study that subject. By setting a

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target you put pressure on an organisation. You tried to ignore

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the complex reasons why women do not go into those sectors. I think an

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all-female short list achieved miracle in Parliament. This is

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following up from having an injection of women coming up because

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the system was changed and a large percentage of women went into

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Parliament under the all-female short list were brilliant, so why

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not? So if the Prime Minister is mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has

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to be female and vice versa? Yes, absolutely, 50-50. We need to

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reflect the population. If we want to play this as a symbolic gesture,

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ideally we should have one of each. Why should a man get the job if you

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have a great female prime minister and a great female Deputy Prime

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Minister? I personally wouldn't mind this. I hear the disgruntled man and

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I want to come -- them to come with us. You're choosing people on the

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basis of traits they were born with. Are there too many Indian

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doctors in the NHS? I would argue not. Given that we tend to have male

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prime ministers rather than female ones, and we don't see another

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female one coming down the pipe very quickly... In the time before women

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short lists by the way. If you had a male prime minister with a female

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Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that give some balance? Why women? Why

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not working class person, which group do you prioritise? I would go

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with you that we need something fundamental to change. This idea

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that what we have now is a reflection of a genuine meritocracy

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is highly questionable. I would argue that when you look at the

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statistics things are changing. argue that when you look at the

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statistics things There are more women appearing in parts of public

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life, that is a long-term trend, but if you are trying to appoint people

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on what they were born with... That is not the only reason but it is an

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additional reason. She has to be able to do the job, obviously. I am

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saying the policy of hazard to discrimination explicitly state that

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you should choose somebody who is female because they are female. At

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the moment there is already enough suspicion about women who are

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successful to get to the senior position and if you institutionalise

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it you reinforce that suspicion. Harriet Harman is still complaining

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women are not being treated fairly. I think the policy reinforces the

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prejudice that women are not getting there because they are treated on

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the same basis. Although you may not want to have the all-female short

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list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a

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visible change in female representation, which the Tory side

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hasn't got? Of course it will work short-term but longer term it has a

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very degrading effect on the principle of equality and the fact

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Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't treated equally, whether it is true

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or not, the perception is still there. A number of women find this

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position must be reserved for a woman lying patronising, and

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speaking of patronising women, you spoken your Independent column, she

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presses all of the buttons for white people... Was that patronising and

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offensive? Probably. I wrote it because I felt that at the time but

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the point is that I was a token when I was appointed. The paper brought

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me in because I was a woman and I was a muslin or whatever. You are

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not writing about yourself. I was writing... It doesn't mean you don't

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criticise other women. We absolutely have to be tough, Manira is tough

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and so am I. Do you want to take back what you wrote? No. Do you

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really think positive discrimination has gone too far? I think there is

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already a suspicion out there that in certain sectors women are being

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promoted for the wrong reasons or ethnic minorities are being promoted

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for the wrong reasons. That is a shame and my worry is that by tying

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funding to your ethnicity or your gender, by saying you will get a

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promotion if you check that box, but you feel that resentment and

:20:30.:20:33.

prejudice and undermine the case for inequality. I wanted to be treated

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equally, because I am capable of doing that job. Only two months to

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go before Scotland takes its biggest constitutional decision in 300 years

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- should it quit or stay with the UK? For some in Scotland campaign

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has been going on forever. What has been the impact on the campaign to

:21:05.:21:10.

date? Alex Salmond says Scotland would

:21:11.:21:14.

remain part of the European Union with sterling as its currency in a

:21:15.:21:19.

monetary union with the rest of the UK, but he has also promised more

:21:20.:21:23.

public spending, increased child care provision and free personal

:21:24.:21:30.

care for the elderly. The SNP claims it would leave people better off by

:21:31.:21:37.

?1000 though that partly depends on the price of oil. With the Better

:21:38.:21:43.

Together arguing against independence, it has naturally been

:21:44.:21:48.

attacking the SNP on all fronts. George Osborne says there will be no

:21:49.:21:55.

monetary union. President Barroso told the BBC it would be extremely

:21:56.:22:00.

difficult for Scotland to join the EU after a yes vote. His successor

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this week said he agreed. Unions claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by

:22:12.:22:21.

being part of the UK. A poll this morning shows a significant lead of

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57% for the no campaign, leaving the SNP to claim it will go their way in

:22:28.:22:34.

the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister of

:22:35.:22:38.

Scotland, joins me now. You want an independent Scotland to keep the

:22:39.:22:44.

pound, stay in NATO, stay in the EU, Scotland already has all of that

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but you cannot guarantee it would have any of it in an independent

:22:50.:22:56.

Scotland, why take the risk? All of these things should be the case

:22:57.:23:00.

because they are in the best interests of Scotland and the rest

:23:01.:23:06.

of the UK but we want the powers to enable us to grow our economy

:23:07.:23:12.

faster, to be productive, and overtime increased the prosperity of

:23:13.:23:17.

people living in Scotland. We also want powers over our social security

:23:18.:23:21.

system so that we can create a system that meets our needs, one

:23:22.:23:28.

that also has a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our

:23:29.:23:32.

society. Independence is about letting us decide our own

:23:33.:23:38.

priorities. You didn't answer my question, you cannot guarantee you

:23:39.:23:42.

would be able to keep the pound within a monetary union, stay in

:23:43.:23:47.

NATO and the EU, you cannot guarantee you could produce any of

:23:48.:23:52.

these things, correct? I would argue that we can because these things are

:23:53.:23:58.

also in the interest of the rest of the UK. No country can be prevented

:23:59.:24:03.

from using the pound, I suggest we use that within a formal monetary

:24:04.:24:08.

union. We have had the UK minister quoted in the Guardian saying the

:24:09.:24:12.

position of the UK Government right now is one based on campaign

:24:13.:24:17.

rhetoric and following a yes vote, of course there would be a currency

:24:18.:24:24.

union. Who is that minister? The Minister is unnamed, but

:24:25.:24:29.

nevertheless that story in the Guardian was a solid one and not

:24:30.:24:34.

substantially denied. So you are basing your monetary policy on one

:24:35.:24:39.

on named minister in one story? Basing it on Common sense because

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monetary union would be in the best interests for Scotland but also

:24:50.:24:52.

overwhelmingly in the interests of the rest of the UK, given their

:24:53.:24:58.

trading relationship with Scotland and the contribution Scotland's

:24:59.:25:05.

exports make. We are having a very good debate and the UK Government

:25:06.:25:11.

and the no campaign, and this is not a criticism, want to talk up in --

:25:12.:25:20.

uncertainty to make people feel scared, but after independence there

:25:21.:25:26.

will be constructed process of negotiation. Let's stick with the

:25:27.:25:29.

monetary union because most economists agree it would be very

:25:30.:25:33.

good for an independent Scotland to have a monetary union but George

:25:34.:25:38.

Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander are unequivocal, they say you won't

:25:39.:25:43.

get it. You claim they are bluffing but again you cannot guarantee that

:25:44.:25:49.

so why the risk? I would say the benefits of independence are

:25:50.:25:53.

substantial but I would also say to George Osborne and his counterparts

:25:54.:25:57.

in the other parties that it would be a very brave Chancellor that says

:25:58.:26:01.

to businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary

:26:02.:26:06.

additional transaction costs of half a very brave Chancellor that says to

:26:07.:26:09.

businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary

:26:10.:26:12.

additional transaction costs of half. What we are doing is making a

:26:13.:26:17.

case that is based on common sense and voters in Scotland will listen

:26:18.:26:22.

to that case being put forward by the other side as well, and they

:26:23.:26:27.

will come to a judgement of the common-sense position. Let's look at

:26:28.:26:34.

EU membership because you haven't been able to guarantee the monetary

:26:35.:26:43.

union. When President Barroso said that a seamless transition to EU

:26:44.:26:48.

membership for an independent Scotland was anything but certain,

:26:49.:26:53.

and one said it could even be impossible, you dismissed him

:26:54.:26:59.

because he was standing down, but been -- venue EU president says the

:27:00.:27:08.

same, do you dismissed him? What we are doing... I should say at the

:27:09.:27:12.

outset of this, we have said repeatedly to the UK Government,

:27:13.:27:17.

let's go jointly and ask for a formal opinion on the EU

:27:18.:27:22.

commission. The EU commission have said they will only do that at this

:27:23.:27:28.

stage if the UK Government ask for it, they are point blank refusing to

:27:29.:27:34.

do that, you have to ask why? It is in their interests to talk up

:27:35.:27:40.

uncertainty. Scotland is an integral part of the European Union, we have

:27:41.:27:44.

been for 40 years, we comply with the rules and regulations... Mr

:27:45.:27:50.

Juncker knows all of that but he still says it will be anything but a

:27:51.:27:57.

seamless transition. He said you could not join the European Union by

:27:58.:28:02.

sending a letter, that is not our proposal. We set down a robust

:28:03.:28:15.

proposal and the timescale we think is reasonable under these

:28:16.:28:20.

circumstances. There are many nationals of other states living in

:28:21.:28:25.

Scotland right now, if we were to be outside of the European Union for

:28:26.:28:29.

any period of time, something the current treaty doesn't even provide

:28:30.:28:33.

for, they would lose their right to stay here. The interests of Scotland

:28:34.:28:37.

and the interests of European Union are in favour of a seamless

:28:38.:28:43.

transition. It comes down to common sense and people in Scotland will

:28:44.:28:45.

make sense and people in Scotland will

:28:46.:28:47.

their own judgement on who is talking the common-sense. What about

:28:48.:28:54.

NATO, two years ago you told Newsnight the SNP's position is that

:28:55.:28:59.

we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a democratic debate, we looked at

:29:00.:29:05.

whether it would be in the interests of an independent Scotland, which

:29:06.:29:08.

forms a significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic and

:29:09.:29:17.

the party changed its mind. It did so in a thoroughly democratic way.

:29:18.:29:25.

That is the nature of democracy. Would you accept the protection of

:29:26.:29:36.

the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is no doubt the SNP's position is that

:29:37.:29:41.

we do not want nuclear weapons in Scotland. That is not what I asked.

:29:42.:29:48.

The world rid themselves of nuclear weapons. One of the interesting

:29:49.:29:53.

point is of the 28 member countries of Natal 25 do not have nuclear

:29:54.:29:59.

weapons. An independent Scotland... I asked if you would accept the

:30:00.:30:09.

nuclear umbrella. The key feature of NATO's military dog train is now

:30:10.:30:15.

clear shrike. We would accept the basis of which NATO is founded but

:30:16.:30:22.

we would argue two things. We want Trident removed from Scotland rather

:30:23.:30:25.

than have a situation where might we are spending ?100 billion over the

:30:26.:30:31.

next generation replacing Trident and we would argue within the

:30:32.:30:33.

international community that the world should move much more quickly

:30:34.:30:39.

to rid itself of nuclear weapons. That is the principal position and

:30:40.:30:42.

won the SNP has held consistently for many years. You would get rid of

:30:43.:30:50.

one of the key parts of the NATO deterrent based in Scotland. You

:30:51.:30:54.

would kick that out. You would not accept all of the club rules because

:30:55.:31:00.

you do not like the idea of nuclear. Why would they like a member like

:31:01.:31:05.

you in? Because Scotland is a significant part of the territory of

:31:06.:31:09.

the North Atlantic. You do not subscribe to the rules. 25 of the

:31:10.:31:14.

member states of NATO are non-nuclear members. You are saying

:31:15.:31:23.

you do not follow the doctrine. NATO has said it wants to move away from

:31:24.:31:28.

reliance on nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland would be

:31:29.:31:32.

entering the majority mainstream of NATO as a country that did not have

:31:33.:31:37.

nuclear weapons. By leading by example our moral authority and

:31:38.:31:40.

encouraging others to do likewise would be increased. Money and oil,

:31:41.:31:47.

the finance minister has said that an independent Scotland would

:31:48.:31:50.

increase public spending by 3% a year. He would pay for that by

:31:51.:31:55.

borrowing. Your First Minister says he is going to stash money in an oil

:31:56.:32:00.

fund. You're going to borrow and save. How does that work? There are

:32:01.:32:09.

two points. Firstly in terms of the outlook for finances and what is one

:32:10.:32:11.

of the central debates of this referendum campaign, austerity that

:32:12.:32:16.

we know will continue if we stay as part of the Westminster system

:32:17.:32:23.

versus prosperity. The economy can afford a higher level of increase in

:32:24.:32:27.

public spending while we continue to have deficit levels at a sustainable

:32:28.:32:33.

level. What is the point of borrowing and saving at the same

:32:34.:32:38.

time? People who have a mortgage and the savings account would not

:32:39.:32:40.

themselves what the wisdom of that is. This is based on recommendations

:32:41.:32:47.

of our expert fiscal Commission that as borrowing reduces to sustainable

:32:48.:32:52.

levels it makes sense to start saving a proportion of our oil

:32:53.:32:57.

wealth. In Norway, which has many similarities to Scotland, they have

:32:58.:33:03.

an oil fund worth ?500 billion. Scotland is part of the Westminster

:33:04.:33:08.

system is sitting on a share of UK debt. We can continue to allow our

:33:09.:33:15.

oil wealth, our vast oil wealth, to be mismanaged or we can decide we

:33:16.:33:18.

are going to manage that resource better in the years to come. Your

:33:19.:33:25.

figures do not add up unless you are about oil prices and revenue and you

:33:26.:33:28.

have been consistently wrong in your predictions. Last year you forecast

:33:29.:33:33.

that revenues would be the .7 billion more than they actually work

:33:34.:33:38.

-- 3.7 Production in line with industry

:33:39.:34:30.

estimates would be a real terms reduction. The Department of Energy

:34:31.:34:33.

and Climate Change in the UK Government is estimating 128

:34:34.:34:38.

dollars, so our estimate is compared to that a cautious one. These are

:34:39.:34:42.

robust estimates based on robust assumptions.

:34:43.:34:46.

They have recently been wrong. But let me move into the final point. We

:34:47.:34:51.

hear a lot from you and your fellow nationalists that you want a

:34:52.:34:54.

Scandinavian style social democracy. You certainly have the spending

:34:55.:34:59.

plans, spending like a social Democrat, but you never tell us

:35:00.:35:02.

about social democratic levels of taxation. All social democracies

:35:03.:35:06.

have higher levels of tax that Scotland have the, so what taxes

:35:07.:35:11.

would go up? We are not proposing tax increases. I want a Scottish

:35:12.:35:17.

style of social democracy. Our government has injuries policies

:35:18.:35:20.

like free education and medicine, and balance the books every single

:35:21.:35:23.

year we have been in government. We want to get more people into work,

:35:24.:35:27.

raise the level of participation in the level market -- labour market

:35:28.:35:32.

and make our economy more productive to increase the overall tax level

:35:33.:35:36.

government. Over the last 33 years, we have generated more tax per of

:35:37.:35:44.

population than the rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, oil prices will

:35:45.:35:49.

have been high in some, and low in some of this. We will also take

:35:50.:35:53.

different decisions. A report published last week shows that if we

:35:54.:35:58.

go as part of the Westminster system down the route of replacing

:35:59.:36:02.

Trident, the cost of that over the next generation will be as high in

:36:03.:36:06.

some years in the 20 20s as ?4 billion. Let's get our access to our

:36:07.:36:13.

own resources, so that we can make different and better decisions about

:36:14.:36:16.

how we spent the resources we already have. So let me get this

:36:17.:36:21.

clear, you are promising Scandinavian style social democratic

:36:22.:36:23.

levels of public spending, but you say you won't need a top rate of tax

:36:24.:36:31.

of 60%, as Scandinavia has, a VAT of 25%, as they have, and VAT on food

:36:32.:36:39.

between 12 and 15%. So you give us all the spending but none of the

:36:40.:36:44.

taxes that make that possible in Scandinavia. I'm sure for purely

:36:45.:36:48.

mischievous reasons you are misrepresenting me. We won levels of

:36:49.:36:52.

public spending in Scotland that the Scottish economy can afford, and I

:36:53.:36:56.

can also help us generate more wealth. We want to use Scotland's

:36:57.:37:03.

existing resources. We are the 14th richest country in the world in

:37:04.:37:08.

terms of what our economy produces per head of population. We don't

:37:09.:37:13.

want to waste resources on Trident replacement, we want to spend the

:37:14.:37:18.

resources we have on the priorities of people in Scotland, and these are

:37:19.:37:20.

the benefits and opportunities we only get we take the opportunity of

:37:21.:37:23.

voting yes in the coming referendum. Thank you for joining us

:37:24.:37:25.

will stop it is 11:35 a.m.. Viewers in Scotland leavers now for

:37:26.:37:28.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:29.:37:35.

Plans to establish the UK's first spaceport are to be announced at

:37:36.:37:46.

Several Scottish sites are in the running.

:37:47.:37:49.

Lib Dem MP Michael Moore has secured the rarity of a private

:37:50.:37:52.

He'll be talking to us live this morning.

:37:53.:37:54.

Scotland commemorates Srebrenica - 8,000 men

:37:55.:37:57.

and boys were massacred by Serbian forces 19 years ago this month.

:37:58.:38:00.

The Labour MP Ann McKechin talks to us about her visit to the town.

:38:01.:38:10.

The UK government will use the Farnborough Air Show next week

:38:11.:38:13.

to lay out plans for a spaceport in Britain.

:38:14.:38:15.

On Tuesday, ministers from the departments

:38:16.:38:17.

of Business and Innovation Skills, the Department of Trade

:38:18.:38:20.

and officials from the UK Space Agency will come together to reveal

:38:21.:38:23.

eight potential locations across the UK which have been shortlisted.

:38:24.:38:27.

The government says its ambition is to have

:38:28.:38:29.

A number of sites in Scotland have been suggested

:38:30.:38:34.

Among them is the former RAF base at Kinloss in Morayshire,

:38:35.:38:40.

although operational flights ceased there in 2011.

:38:41.:38:43.

It's now an army base but its runways have been maintained.

:38:44.:38:47.

RAF Lossiemouth, home to Tornados and from this

:38:48.:38:51.

summer, Typhoon squadrons, had been mooted when it was threatened with

:38:52.:38:54.

The former MoD base at Machrihanish was handed over in the mid-1990s.

:38:55.:39:00.

In 2011 the Defence Secretary announced the closure of

:39:01.:39:03.

RAF Leuchars, though the base will be transferred to the army.

:39:04.:39:08.

I'm joined now by Craig Clark, who is the Chief Executive

:39:09.:39:10.

Craig, I was kind of hoping you would be called Boz! We should

:39:11.:39:27.

explain ClydeSpace. You built the first made in Scotland satellite,

:39:28.:39:30.

didn't you, which has just been launched? Yes, on Tuesday. In

:39:31.:39:37.

Kazakhstan. And that has done successfully? Yes, very

:39:38.:39:41.

successfully. We used a rocket which was similar to one of the ones that

:39:42.:39:46.

launched people into space, a very reliable rocket, and everything went

:39:47.:39:51.

perfectly. First, this idea of a spaceport. Is that a good idea, do

:39:52.:39:55.

you think? I think it is a fantastic idea. Only there are no such launch

:39:56.:40:01.

sites in Europe, said to have one in the UK, it puts is miles ahead of

:40:02.:40:05.

European sense of capability of putting a spacecraft into orbit, so

:40:06.:40:09.

it would attract lots of business to the UK. These sites we have been

:40:10.:40:13.

talking about in Scotland, it would seem that something like six of the

:40:14.:40:17.

eight potential sites are here. Yes, well Scotland is ideally

:40:18.:40:22.

placed, because when you launch a satellite into orbit, there is a

:40:23.:40:27.

technical explanation, but basically, you want to go north. So

:40:28.:40:31.

in the UK, Scotland is ideally placed. You also want to launch ever

:40:32.:40:38.

see, when nobody is living, in case anything goes wrong, and you don't

:40:39.:40:42.

want about any lives in jeopardy. So the idea of Kinloss or Machrihanish

:40:43.:40:45.

is, you go north and there is nothing there. Then this is

:40:46.:40:50.

presumably in case of accidents. Yes, that is right. OK. What would

:40:51.:40:56.

we launch from a UK space Port? We don't have any rockets, do we? There

:40:57.:41:02.

is a capability in the UK. We have missile capability, which most to

:41:03.:41:07.

other now about. We can also buy rocket technology from other

:41:08.:41:11.

countries like the US, or we could even have US companies locate

:41:12.:41:14.

themselves in the UK to launch spacecraft from here as well. When

:41:15.:41:19.

you say we have missile technology, do you mean we have technology that

:41:20.:41:24.

could launch something like UKube-1 into space? That's correct. The

:41:25.:41:29.

launch vehicle we were run on Tuesday was very day, and actually

:41:30.:41:34.

had a very large satellite, including our satellite, the size of

:41:35.:41:39.

a large car. You need a very large launch vehicle to take that sort of

:41:40.:41:42.

thing into orbit, but the typical spacecraft, it you can make it about

:41:43.:41:48.

the size of a shoe box. Other companies make satellite is the size

:41:49.:41:51.

of a washing machine. That those sorts of sizes, the launch vehicle

:41:52.:41:56.

technology is a lot simpler. So it is possible. So we could have

:41:57.:42:01.

business technology doing that? Yes. Will presumably, as you say, you

:42:02.:42:05.

could buy some rockets from the Russians of the same model that you

:42:06.:42:08.

used. Plenty of people do that already around the world. Tell us a

:42:09.:42:13.

bit more about UKube-1. The first one went up, it had experiments on

:42:14.:42:23.

it. Using space particles to generate random numbers. What on

:42:24.:42:27.

earth is that all about? Well, in space, we have radiation, and one

:42:28.:42:37.

type of radiation will cause a zero to go to a one in memory, and I will

:42:38.:42:44.

basically cause a random number to be generated. So the radiation

:42:45.:42:51.

particle hits the Itronix... I presume eventually, the idea is that

:42:52.:42:55.

you have space particles generating random numbers, which can be as for

:42:56.:42:59.

something like internet security purposes? That's right, so maybe

:43:00.:43:03.

military satellites or something like that. Is that feasible? Are we

:43:04.:43:08.

talking far future or is that something that could be in a few

:43:09.:43:15.

years? We use random number generators are ready for secure

:43:16.:43:18.

communications, but it is all done on software, so there is a limit to

:43:19.:43:21.

how random they are. To take that further, they are trying different

:43:22.:43:25.

techniques. What difference would it make to have a company making these

:43:26.:43:28.

things if we had a space base? I think it would track lots of

:43:29.:43:33.

business to the UK. We are in the business of making very small

:43:34.:43:37.

satellites. So if you had a regular series of these little missile

:43:38.:43:39.

launchers you're talking about, that would be easier? Absolutely. To

:43:40.:43:45.

launch our satellite, travelling to Moscow and Kazakhstan, there were

:43:46.:43:48.

lots of issues. The Scottish Government, when it commented on

:43:49.:43:53.

this story said, the Scottish space industry can only develop further if

:43:54.:43:56.

we become independent. Is that how it looks from where you are? From my

:43:57.:44:01.

point of view, we are maybe an export business, so most of our

:44:02.:44:07.

customers are worldwide, and about a third of our sales are in the US, to

:44:08.:44:12.

NASA and organisations like that. So whether we are independent or not

:44:13.:44:15.

would not really make much difference to us. Well, thank you

:44:16.:44:16.

very much. Now, one of the coalition

:44:17.:44:18.

government's proudest pledges was that Britain's overseas aid budget

:44:19.:44:21.

would be protected from George In fact, last year Britain met

:44:22.:44:23.

for the first time the international target of spending

:44:24.:44:27.

0.7% of GDP on overseas aid. But should that target be enshrined

:44:28.:44:31.

in law Michael Moore, the Liberal Democrat

:44:32.:44:33.

MP and former Scottish Secretary, He'll be putting down a private

:44:34.:44:39.

members bill to that effect, and it Michael Moore, the obvious problem

:44:40.:44:59.

with your bill is that, as I understand it, the importance of it,

:45:00.:45:02.

and there are some Conservative MPs who have already said so, they can

:45:03.:45:10.

just talk it out? They could. There are all kinds of parliamentary

:45:11.:45:13.

tricks that could be used to prevent it from getting through all its

:45:14.:45:20.

stages, but I think the important point here is, this is an issue on

:45:21.:45:23.

which the important point here is, this is an issue on which there is

:45:24.:45:25.

cost party consensus. Labour, the Conservatives, the SNP and ourselves

:45:26.:45:30.

will support the principle of putting this target in law, and it

:45:31.:45:33.

draws attention to a really important issue, that aid for people

:45:34.:45:37.

in the least developed parts of the world, people who are really

:45:38.:45:41.

suffering, is still very important, and we in the UK are rightly proud

:45:42.:45:48.

of having reached the target, but we have to make sure we keep reaching

:45:49.:45:52.

the target. When you asked by the Lib Dem leadership to pick this

:45:53.:45:56.

topic? No, I was considering a range of different bills, and a Private

:45:57.:46:01.

Members' Bill has to be one that has a good chance of getting through by

:46:02.:46:06.

getting cross-party consensus. I know there is a strong consensus for

:46:07.:46:15.

this. I respect the fact that there are people in other parties who

:46:16.:46:22.

oppose it. I am happy to meet them and argue the case. The reason I ask

:46:23.:46:23.

you is because enshrined in this in law was in the coalition agreement

:46:24.:46:24.

between yourselves and the Conservatives, and David Cameron

:46:25.:46:27.

decided not to proceed with that, even though it was in the coalition

:46:28.:46:33.

agreement. So cynics would say that apart from your concerns about the

:46:34.:46:36.

third World, which I don't think anyone would doubt, this looks like

:46:37.:46:40.

a ploy to expose divisions in the Conservative Party. There are

:46:41.:46:44.

certainly people in the Conservative Party who are opposed to this. Some

:46:45.:46:49.

of them oppose all Private Members' Bills, some have an ideological

:46:50.:46:53.

opposition to government money being spent on aid. However, to give

:46:54.:46:58.

credit to the many in the Conservative Party alongside Liberal

:46:59.:47:02.

Democrats and the SNP and Labour who are very strongly supportive of

:47:03.:47:06.

this, including successive secretaries of State, and one key

:47:07.:47:13.

back of my bill is Andrew Mitchell, who is the first Conservative

:47:14.:47:15.

Secretary of State for International development back in 2010. I think it

:47:16.:47:18.

is to their credit along with others that this has got consensus to go

:47:19.:47:22.

forward. The obvious argument against this is that you are tying

:47:23.:47:25.

the hands of future governments, perhaps in the middle of a financial

:47:26.:47:29.

crisis, and also, for many in this country, times have been very tough

:47:30.:47:34.

recently. For example, why not write a law saying you can't cut the NHS

:47:35.:47:38.

budget? The reason I have drawn attention to this, and generations

:47:39.:47:44.

of campaigners and politicians have argued for this, is that the

:47:45.:47:49.

disparity, the gap between the very wealthy of the world and those in

:47:50.:47:52.

abject poverty in the developing world is huge, and sadly, not

:47:53.:47:57.

getting closed quickly enough. There has been a United Nations target to

:47:58.:48:01.

get to this level of government spending since 1970, so we are not

:48:02.:48:08.

exactly rushed to get here. We are seeing, let's get a floor under

:48:09.:48:11.

which we do not go in terms of development. It is not .7%. Not a

:48:12.:48:15.

huge amount of money, and then we can start making short, doubling our

:48:16.:48:21.

efforts to make sure it is well spent and well targeted. Briefly,

:48:22.:48:24.

the other criticism that is made is that we give money to some countries

:48:25.:48:28.

that arguably should not receive it. Let me give you one example. Nigeria

:48:29.:49:11.

has just rearranged its GDP in a way many economists think is credible,

:49:12.:49:12.

making it the richest country in Africa, Richard and South Africa,

:49:13.:49:13.

yet it is receiving British aid. Although there are problems in

:49:14.:49:13.

Nigeria, people would say it is to do with governance, not lack of

:49:14.:49:14.

money. Their economy is growing faster than ours. That is

:49:15.:49:15.

legitimate. We need to focus our assistance on the right countries

:49:16.:49:15.

and the right bits within countries, because property is not universally

:49:16.:49:16.

experienced, and I don't think we will shy away from having a close

:49:17.:49:18.

focus on development aid and how it is spent, but we can't escape the

:49:19.:49:20.

fact that millions of people are in extreme hunger, millions do not get

:49:21.:49:24.

access to clean water, millions do not get vaccinations that could save

:49:25.:49:25.

them and their children, and I think well that remains the case, we

:49:26.:49:28.

should be focusing our efforts in this way. There is also also talk

:49:29.:49:34.

about a Cabinet reshuffle tomorrow. You don't have fond memories of the

:49:35.:49:39.

last one. You think Nick Clegg should reshuffle himself? Do you

:49:40.:50:04.

think he should lead the Lib Dems into the next election? Of course he

:50:05.:50:04.

should. I think it is absolutely right that Nick should take is

:50:05.:50:05.

through to the next election. I think he is the right guy to do it.

:50:06.:50:06.

By your poll ratings are disastrous. They are dire, but they will not be

:50:07.:50:07.

changed by a leadership election largely featuring people who like

:50:08.:50:17.

Nick and me have been in coalition. You describe Radio 1 poll ratings as

:50:18.:50:22.

dire. How could he be any more dire by having a new leader? My personal

:50:23.:50:27.

judgement which I know is shared by most colleagues is that Nick is the

:50:28.:50:31.

right guy to be leading us and a distraction of a leadership contest

:50:32.:50:35.

right now when the electorate are expecting us to set out our

:50:36.:50:39.

programme for the next Parliament would be completely self-indulgent

:50:40.:50:43.

and wrong. With the benefit of hindsight, do you think the Liberal

:50:44.:50:51.

Democrats should have gone into coalition? I do. The country was on

:50:52.:50:57.

our financial precipice in 2010 and we had real questions to be answered

:50:58.:51:02.

about our economic viability. We needed the government to have the

:51:03.:51:08.

commitment and strength to go through five tough years. For us to

:51:09.:51:12.

have avoided that and sat in the comfort zone of the opposition

:51:13.:51:17.

benches would have created more difficulty. You betrayed personal

:51:18.:51:23.

pledges. You made a personal pledge not to increase tuition fees. That

:51:24.:51:27.

was the moment in which the credibility of the Liberal Democrats

:51:28.:51:31.

was shot and you have never recovered. I appreciate that and I

:51:32.:51:36.

have apologised for the reasons behind that strong change of

:51:37.:51:40.

position. We continue to argue with people the length and breadth of the

:51:41.:51:43.

country about what we have put in place that we believe actually is

:51:44.:51:48.

better at getting students from poor background into higher education and

:51:49.:51:56.

it is a fire system. Really? Nonetheless, I am not ducking your

:51:57.:52:00.

central point. We said we wouldn't and we did. In the process of

:52:01.:52:06.

explaining that to the public, we have the set out the other things we

:52:07.:52:14.

have achieved, not least out of ensuring pensioners get a fair deal

:52:15.:52:19.

from the state. Liberal Democrats have delivered some good things. Let

:52:20.:52:26.

me just caught you on the subject of betraying the pledge on tuition

:52:27.:52:31.

fees. You said, I signed a pledge that promised not to do that. I have

:52:32.:52:36.

done the worst crime a politician can commit. I have had to break a

:52:37.:52:42.

pledge very publicly in what is a car crash and it is deeply damaging

:52:43.:52:53.

to my party, me and lots of others. You're absolutely right, weren't

:52:54.:52:59.

you? If you recall, that was a private conversation which the Daily

:53:00.:53:04.

Telegraph recorded. But I stand by what I said. I perhaps put it more

:53:05.:53:09.

colourfully in private than I would have done in public. Nick Clegg,

:53:10.:53:13.

myself and others have apologised for that. There were senior Liberal

:53:14.:53:21.

Democrats including Charles Kennedy and so Ming Campbell who refuse to

:53:22.:53:31.

do what you did. They said -- sur Menzies Campbell.

:53:32.:53:37.

Vince Cable brought the policy for bird. Nick Clegg as leader and our

:53:38.:53:48.

Cabinet colleagues were going to support this. It would have been

:53:49.:53:51.

ridiculous for us not to. We believe the solution we brought forward was

:53:52.:53:56.

the best available in the circumstances and prevented huge

:53:57.:54:02.

cuts in the higher education spending in England and Wales. I am

:54:03.:54:05.

not getting away from the difficulties of that and the legacy

:54:06.:54:10.

it has left. It is much more profound than that. Ming Campbell

:54:11.:54:15.

said my credibility would be shot to pieces if I did anything other than

:54:16.:54:21.

stick to the promise I made. He was right, wasn't he? Your personal

:54:22.:54:26.

credibility as a politician has been shot to pieces. Each of us is

:54:27.:54:31.

accountable to our electorate and our constituents across the country.

:54:32.:54:37.

We have do explain decisions which are different to what we have said.

:54:38.:54:44.

People are giving us a clearer hearing than perhaps you are

:54:45.:54:49.

suggesting. Yes, the Paul rating remains dire and we need to do

:54:50.:54:52.

better. Over the next nine months, we will have our opportunity to set

:54:53.:54:58.

out our stall for the next elections. Are there any red lines

:54:59.:55:03.

left for the Liberal Democrats? Suppose the Conservatives did well

:55:04.:55:07.

in the next general election but again didn't have an overall

:55:08.:55:14.

majority and wanted going to coalition with the Liberal Democrats

:55:15.:55:24.

again, David Cameron might say that he needed the EU Referendum Bill

:55:25.:55:30.

stop would you let him have that? There are a number of stages before

:55:31.:55:35.

we get to any coalition negotiations. I don't want there to

:55:36.:55:39.

be a referendum that is on different terms to the one we agreed in this

:55:40.:55:44.

parliament with the Conservatives which is to say were there to be a

:55:45.:55:53.

major transfer of powers to Brussels then there should be a referendum. I

:55:54.:55:57.

am not in the position to say there is a red line on anything. Nobody

:55:58.:56:03.

believes there is one. Everybody sees every political party,

:56:04.:56:08.

including labour, the Conservatives and the SNP, they have to make

:56:09.:56:14.

compromises. We will set out our position in the build-up to the

:56:15.:56:19.

election and on that basis we will submit colleagues which we hope will

:56:20.:56:26.

be elected to Parliament. I think it is fair to say you were probably not

:56:27.:56:30.

delighted when you were replaced as Secretary of State for Scotland. Is

:56:31.:56:42.

it helpful that Alistair Carmichael is rumoured to be replaced after the

:56:43.:56:48.

referendum? Having been through various boats of speculation, you

:56:49.:56:55.

learn to Don thick skin very quickly. Alistair is doing a superb

:56:56.:57:02.

job and there are lots of talented colleagues. He is not going to be

:57:03.:57:11.

replaced in September? That is not my decision. That is a decision for

:57:12.:57:16.

the leader. In my personal view, I think Alistair is doing a fantastic

:57:17.:57:20.

job and I hope he continues doing it. Thank you for joining us.

:57:21.:57:26.

You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland.

:57:27.:57:27.

Scotland could become the base for the UK's spaceport, the first of

:57:28.:57:32.

The UK Government will reveal eight potential locations for the

:57:33.:57:38.

Its ambition is to have the port fully operational by 2018.

:57:39.:57:44.

Kinloss in Morayshire, RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Leuchars

:57:45.:57:47.

have all been mentioned as possible locations in the past.

:57:48.:58:06.

The First Minister has said the North Sea oil industry would be

:58:07.:58:09.

a bonus, not the basis of an independent Scotland's economy.

:58:10.:58:11.

He is responding to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny

:58:12.:58:14.

Alexander, who has accused him of promising milk and honey after the

:58:15.:58:17.

UK Office for Budget Responsibility revised down the amount of cash it

:58:18.:58:20.

expects to be raised from oil and gas revenues. Mr Salmond argued

:58:21.:58:22.

the industry has been neglected and undermined by successive UK

:58:23.:58:25.

A project to reduce the cost and time it takes to establish

:58:26.:58:39.

offshore wind farms is to benefit from ?2.2 million of Scottish

:58:40.:58:41.

Nine developers with around 70% of the UK's offshore energy

:58:42.:58:44.

capacity will work to share knowledge and best practice

:58:45.:58:46.

in areas including the maintenance of turbines and cable installation.

:58:47.:58:54.

It has been confirmed that Rod Stewart will headline

:58:55.:58:56.

the opening ceremony of the Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games.

:58:57.:58:59.

He will perform in front of 40,000 people at the event at Celtic Park.

:59:00.:59:03.

Susan Boyle, Nicola Bennedetti and Amy MacDonald are also included

:59:04.:59:06.

in the line up which is expected to be watched internationally

:59:07.:59:08.

Many of us saw some range of in the overnight period. That has cleared

:59:09.:59:29.

from the mainland although it will linger over Orkney and Shetland.

:59:30.:59:37.

Elsewhere, it looks predominantly dry. Some servers breaking out

:59:38.:59:42.

towards more eastern parts of the country. We could see some highs of

:59:43.:59:48.

21 degrees. A fairly pleasant afternoon for most. This evening,

:59:49.:59:53.

drive a clear spells. Last Friday,

:59:54.:59:57.

Scotland marked Srebrenica Memorial Those involved commemorated

:59:58.:00:01.

the massacre of 8,000 men and boys It was the worst atrocity in the

:00:02.:00:06.

three and a half year war that broke out following the disintegration

:00:07.:00:14.

of Yugoslavia involving Bosnia, 100,000 people died during the

:00:15.:00:16.

conflict, 80% of whom were Bosnian, Labour MP Ann McKechin visited the

:00:17.:00:20.

town earlier this year and she's One of the things that struck me as

:00:21.:00:36.

most disturbing and what you said after you came back in February was

:00:37.:00:44.

that there was little sign of any reconciliation in the town itself? I

:00:45.:00:49.

have visited a number of sites were genocide has occurred. Auschwitz,

:00:50.:00:58.

Rwanda and Buenos Aires where the disappeared were tortured and

:00:59.:01:01.

killed. When I visited Bosnia, the atmosphere was distinctly different.

:01:02.:01:07.

People are not allowed to grieve properly in the town were this

:01:08.:01:11.

dreadful massacre took place. One of the site is still used as a school

:01:12.:01:17.

by the Serbian population. People are not allowed to lay flowers were

:01:18.:01:22.

people were shot and killed. The distance between the communities in

:01:23.:01:30.

this small part of the world is still growing. When you see people

:01:31.:01:36.

are not allowed to lay flowers, how does that work? Technically, this is

:01:37.:01:45.

all Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is the Serbian Republic part of it

:01:46.:01:50.

effectively working as an autonomous unit? That's right. The threatening

:01:51.:01:58.

to join Serbia. The fact that there is an agreement which set up the

:01:59.:02:03.

political structure within Bosnia-Herzegovina and that was

:02:04.:02:09.

really there to stop the killing and have a cease-fire. It is not a

:02:10.:02:12.

serious long-term political settlement for that country and it

:02:13.:02:17.

is not engendered the necessary grassroots reconciliation which

:02:18.:02:19.

allows people to grieve for their dead properly, to move on and start

:02:20.:02:27.

to live and grow together. That is why it demands our attention. What

:02:28.:02:36.

you think needs to be the European Union has understandably had a focus

:02:37.:02:40.

in Ukraine. But the leadership needs to show focus here in encouraging a

:02:41.:02:43.

mum on to -- a momentum for change. Do you think there can be

:02:44.:03:04.

reconciliation within the new state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or do you

:03:05.:03:13.

think they would only ever be reconciliation if the Serbian

:03:14.:03:18.

Republic would be allowed to break away? I think that would be

:03:19.:03:27.

disastrous. People are very afraid that could occur. What we require is

:03:28.:03:34.

encouragement to the government of Bosnia and surrounding countries to

:03:35.:03:38.

work together for a new political process which will not happen

:03:39.:03:46.

overnight. This will be a very long process because the horror of

:03:47.:03:48.

Srebrenica and that war which lasted for four Mac years and affected the

:03:49.:03:54.

whole country when thousands of people lost their lives, that will

:03:55.:04:00.

take a long time to forget. The past is not sorted out. As I understand

:04:01.:04:07.

it, there are still investigations into missing people? People are

:04:08.:04:17.

still being identified as we speak. Bones were scattered over a wide

:04:18.:04:27.

radius. These need to be properly interred. People were directly

:04:28.:04:32.

involved in the killing and have never been brought to justice. They

:04:33.:04:38.

are living and working, in some cases holding senior positions.

:04:39.:04:59.

Quite openly. What about the Dutch role in this? Apparently, a criminal

:05:00.:05:17.

case was not possible as the UN has immunity. But do you think the Dutch

:05:18.:05:20.

role should just be put in the past, or do you think it is a live issue?

:05:21.:05:23.

We need to understand the strength of feeling within the Bosnia

:05:24.:05:27.

immunity in Srebrenica about what occurred, and the total failure of

:05:28.:05:30.

the international community to protect them adequately. The UN must

:05:31.:05:34.

except this issue and take responsibility for it, because

:05:35.:05:35.

people need to have trust in the United Nations and international

:05:36.:05:36.

organisations if we are to achieve the type of peace and resolution and

:05:37.:05:37.

security we all seek. In the first of a series,

:05:38.:05:38.

we've been asking people on both sides of the referendum

:05:39.:05:41.

campaign for a personal account Chris Agee, author,

:05:42.:05:43.

poet and writer-in-residence at Strathclyde University,

:05:44.:05:46.

begins by giving us his account. I stay in Partick and will be voting

:05:47.:06:01.

Yes in the referendum, but I grew up in the United States and have lived

:06:02.:06:06.

most of my life in Ireland. I have yet to meet a single Scottish Scots

:06:07.:06:11.

resident writer who does not intend to vote Yes. Writers tend to take

:06:12.:06:28.

the long view, both in terms of the future, but in relation to the past.

:06:29.:06:31.

Turning to my own particular reasons, the removal of nuclear

:06:32.:06:34.

weapons, the ending of the half nation for the full nation, the

:06:35.:06:37.

obvious, pate and better prospect for social justice and democratic

:06:38.:06:43.

participation. Avoidance of what is sometimes called political capture

:06:44.:06:46.

by special interests or classes, as in the City of London. Continued,

:06:47.:06:48.

secure membership of the European Union. Altogether, these potential

:06:49.:06:51.

changes or developments will have an enormous impact, obviously, on

:06:52.:06:56.

England in general, and London in particular. Small, well off

:06:57.:07:02.

democratic polity is like the Nordic countries do social justice and

:07:03.:07:09.

democratic participation better than the large, loose federal structures

:07:10.:07:14.

structure is embodied by Russia, China, US, and to a certain extent,

:07:15.:07:18.

the UK, which are now riven with the most enormous social inequalities,

:07:19.:07:21.

as exemplified by what might be called the citystate of London.

:07:22.:07:25.

Scottish independence does not represent a move towards insularity,

:07:26.:07:30.

but a move towards international is. Imagine all the distinct,

:07:31.:07:34.

independent Scottish voices that can exist in international bodies, and

:07:35.:07:38.

at the same time, Scottish independence has the potential for a

:07:39.:07:43.

major, positive influence on the reconciliation of two parts of

:07:44.:07:47.

Ireland, and the reordering any more natural way of the various parts of

:07:48.:07:52.

this planet. Next week, we'll have

:07:53.:07:53.

our second guest to explain what's shaped his decision to vote No

:07:54.:07:55.

in September's referendum. Now, time for a look at what is in

:07:56.:08:03.

the papers and what is happening in the week ahead.

:08:04.:08:13.

I am joined by Penny Taylor and by Andrew Pickering. Let's start with

:08:14.:08:19.

Scots in space. There might be a space based in Scotland. Exciting?

:08:20.:08:24.

My initial reaction is, is this another indie referendum bribe,

:08:25.:08:31.

because they cannot afford their own space programme, I think, so I am a

:08:32.:08:39.

little curious of this timing. I think the scepticism is fairly well

:08:40.:08:43.

founded, but it is quite exciting. It fires the imagination. It is

:08:44.:08:48.

July, when these sort of stories traditionally happen. But this is

:08:49.:08:53.

not speculation, it is announced by the government. We sent up our first

:08:54.:08:57.

satellite, launched in Kazakhstan. Yes, one made in Scotland. And this

:08:58.:09:02.

has been on the go for a couple of years. A couple of stories in the

:09:03.:09:09.

Herald. Better Together have the wrong address. You mentioned the

:09:10.:09:16.

silly season! You get about halfway through this, and you realise it is

:09:17.:09:21.

really not a story, because the Electoral Commission are saying, it

:09:22.:09:25.

is fine with us, there is not a problem. So I am not entirely

:09:26.:09:30.

convinced by this. I have been reading and rereading it, looking

:09:31.:09:33.

body significance. I cannot understand what it would mean if the

:09:34.:09:37.

Electoral commission has said, you have registered your address in

:09:38.:09:40.

Glasgow instead of Edinburgh. Does it mean there is No a? What would be

:09:41.:09:48.

the indication? I presume there would be at implication, if you

:09:49.:09:54.

remember that the CBI was technically not registered properly.

:09:55.:09:59.

I guess that is the comparison. Scotland on Sunday, arguably, there

:10:00.:10:05.

is a new poll, Penny Taylor. Yes, and polls leave me a little bit

:10:06.:10:10.

cold. This one shows 2% gain for the Yes campaign, and 80% loss for the

:10:11.:10:19.

No camp will stop I am not a statistician, but I wonder as

:10:20.:10:21.

statistically significant that is. However, the detail in this is

:10:22.:10:25.

really interesting. It shows for the first time, for instance, that more

:10:26.:10:29.

women are declaring for Yes than men. Up until now, we have thought

:10:30.:10:34.

that women were the ones who were hanging back. This says differently.

:10:35.:10:38.

Something I am also finding very interesting, there has been a loss

:10:39.:10:47.

of 9% in the No vote from people aged over 65, according to this

:10:48.:10:53.

poll. I think it is maybe pinch of salt stuff. On the face of it, good

:10:54.:10:57.

news for the No camp. I think the Yes camp or will consult themselves

:10:58.:11:04.

with 21% and undecided. The one jumped out at me was 86% of No

:11:05.:11:08.

voters would still reject independence if there wasn't any

:11:09.:11:13.

offer of more powers. Presumably, the concern for the Yes camp is that

:11:14.:11:19.

there has now been a series of polls which, at best, showed No particular

:11:20.:11:26.

movement. Yes. But what it does show is, they are still in the race. Even

:11:27.:11:30.

with weeks to go, which is what I think they are working towards. Two

:11:31.:11:36.

months on Friday, and it is still incredibly tight, so the game is for

:11:37.:11:40.

the playing. So they will be hoping a bit last Bush can turn it around.

:11:41.:11:45.

I think we will see quite a few polls after the Commonwealth Games

:11:46.:11:48.

as well, to take that into a new era. Cabinet reshuffle. Exciting?

:11:49.:11:57.

More women? Yes, it is saying in the Sunday Times that David Cameron has

:11:58.:12:01.

lined up a dozen women to be the new faces at the Tory party in the

:12:02.:12:05.

run-up to the general election. A lot of me wants to say, about time,

:12:06.:12:09.

but when you are looking at the detail of some of these women, you

:12:10.:12:12.

are wondering what difference it will make to party policy or the

:12:13.:12:16.

acceptability of a party in this neck of the woods. Penny is right in

:12:17.:12:24.

terms of about time. It begs the question, why have they not done it

:12:25.:12:27.

before now? Voters will probably look at it that way. What about some

:12:28.:12:33.

of the big positions? Any changes there? It is saying that the

:12:34.:12:37.

employment Minister Esther McVey is being lined up to replace Kenneth

:12:38.:12:41.

Clarke, that he is preparing to stand down as Minister Without

:12:42.:12:48.

Portfolio. Yes, although another rumour is that Esther McVey could

:12:49.:12:52.

replace Iain Duncan Smith. It is just a rumour. Even at the time of

:12:53.:12:56.

the last reshuffle, I was taught that George Osborne wanted to get

:12:57.:12:59.

rid of Iain Duncan Smith, because he took his own wealth reforms

:13:00.:13:04.

seriously, instead of just saving money. There has been a lot of

:13:05.:13:08.

conflict between those two camps. The one that intrigued me was Lynne

:13:09.:13:13.

Fawkes possibly making a return after three years in the wilderness.

:13:14.:13:17.

It will be interesting to see what happens there. Possibly Ed Davey

:13:18.:13:21.

replaced by Jo Swinson, though it seems a road is now denying that. I

:13:22.:13:26.

think we saw the response of Michael Moore to that, Yes. It has been

:13:27.:13:31.

mooted that Jo Swinson will be in the Cabinet, but possibly in

:13:32.:13:35.

September. Do you think she is deserving? She is certainly a

:13:36.:13:38.

popular MP, but what is interesting to me as a woman in Scotland as, the

:13:39.:13:43.

relevance of this to the Scottish debate at the moment. It feels quite

:13:44.:13:48.

remote. We will have to leave it there. Thank you both very much

:13:49.:13:49.

indeed. I'll be back at the same time

:13:50.:13:57.

next week. Until then, goodbye.

:13:58.:14:00.

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