03/08/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


03/08/2014

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LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:00:36.:00:37.

As the EU imposes tough sanctions on Russia, we'll ask what effect it

:00:38.:00:42.

We'll be speaking to the former Liberal Democrat leader,

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Sir Ming Campbell, about why he supports taking a

:00:49.:00:50.

100 years on from the outbreak of World War One, could such

:00:51.:01:01.

This week, the screws were tightened on Vladimir Putin

:01:02.:01:06.

as sweeping sanctions were imposed on Russia by the EU and the USA.

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The West has plucked up courage as it seeks a resolution to

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But you can't get into a fight without taking a hit and British

:01:15.:01:19.

and Scottish companies will feel the effect of export restrictions.

:01:20.:01:22.

Russia could also retaliate in the future, perhaps heaping more

:01:23.:01:24.

Searches continue around the wreckage of MH 17 more than two

:01:25.:01:41.

weeks after it crashed, allegedly struck down by Russian - supported

:01:42.:01:47.

rebels. EU foreign ministers decided Russia had not done enough to stop

:01:48.:02:03.

the supply of arms. The EU is targeting state-owned banks, it has

:02:04.:02:10.

imposed an arms embargo, exports of oral equipment have been curtailed

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as well. The US also has sanctions on weapons, energy and finance. The

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decisions made in Brussels will affect key sectors of the Russian

:02:23.:02:27.

economy but these are also key sectors of the British, Scottish

:02:28.:02:30.

economies, so these restrictions will have an impact. David Cameron

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himself said you can't throw a punch without bruising your first and this

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has been a dilemma with the EU. These sanctions are intended to hit

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Russia's economy in certain sensitive areas but you can't do

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that without also harming your own companies. So companies feeling the

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pinch. BP has warned its business could suffer. It has a 20% stake in

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a Russian energy giant. Shell said they would assess the impact. The

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oil technology sector will be hit by ex-board controls. With the oil

:03:19.:03:23.

industry dominated by transactions in US dollars, British and European

:03:24.:03:29.

banks will be worried whether new regulations. Meanwhile, RBS said on

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Friday it would reduce their exposure to Russia. That is the

:03:34.:03:40.

situation now. Any future Russian retaliation could throw up new trade

:03:41.:03:45.

barriers. Scottish exports like whiskey could be affected. There are

:03:46.:03:51.

conflicted views on how Putin wants to play this. Stay popular at home

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and make the west out to be the bogeyman or de-escalate the

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situation to save the Russian economy. And perhaps even the

:04:00.:04:01.

European economy as well. I'm joined by Sir Menzies Campbell,

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who's at Murrayfield stadium this This problem of sanctions, do you

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think that is simply a secondary consideration and they have to just

:04:21.:04:24.

put up and shut up in the interests of the greater good? I wouldn't put

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it in those terms but you have to ask yourself this question: Can we

:04:31.:04:36.

go on treating Russia as if it is business as usual? The answer, in my

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view, is most certainly not because Russia has undoubtedly supported the

:04:44.:04:49.

dissidents in eastern Ukraine, they supplied the missiles which brought

:04:50.:04:51.

down the Malaysian airlines aircraft, and since then, Mr Putin

:04:52.:04:57.

has done very little to help in the international investigation of the

:04:58.:05:01.

causes of that crime when he could have brought

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causes of that crime when he could are affected where as the people who

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could really have an impact on the Russian economy will have nothing to

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could really have an impact on the remember before the aircraft was

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shot down, Mr Putin was sounding rather more considerate sea because

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of the impact of sanctions on him. There is also evidence that the

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oligarchs, the people closest to him and who -- whose support he

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requires, have put pressure on him to alter the nature of his foreign

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policy. I don't accept the notion that these sanctions will not have

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an impact. The other thing people might say is, businesses in Britain

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might suffer from the sanctions but wouldn't it be helpful of existing

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contracts were cancelled? While people have been asked not to export

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to Russia, the French are exporting warships to Russia! They have an

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existing contract and if they didn't fulfil that, the French government

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would be sued but I think it is perfectly legitimate to say because

:07:38.:07:42.

of the recent behaviour, there is no longer to be any export of military

:07:43.:07:49.

equipment or a dual use equipment because some equipment, if exported,

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can only be put to legitimate civil use but military use as well. The

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people got to understand what the impact on the stability in Europe

:08:00.:08:06.

will be if Russia persists in pursuing this aggressive and

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nationalist policy. The argument the British government is adopting is it

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is backing Vladimir Putin into a corner. He has effectively been told

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to give in or put up a fight. There is only one choice you will make. If

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he insists on putting up a fight, there are consequences of that. This

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is a man who led the annexation of a large part of a territory of a

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sovereign nation. The impact of that upon the stability of the European

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continent is very substantial and if we were having this conversation in

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Latvia or Estonia or Lithuania, we would have in different terms. I

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have been to that part of the world recently and there is great anxiety

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about the extent to which Russia may now begin to exercise pressure on

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these Baltic states. It has got to be demonstrated that the European

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Union and United States will resist that we are sending 1300 troops to

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conduct exercises in the Baltics in order to demonstrate that we have a

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commitment to this part of the world, not least of course because

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it is a member of the European Union. The Russians are among the

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first to make the contrast between the attitude of the west of the

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situation in eastern Ukraine and Gaza. Philip Hammond said this

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morning that the situation in Gaza was one of intolerable suffering, he

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had received thousands of e-mails from British citizen is objecting to

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what was going on in Gaza, yet compared to these tougher sanctions

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you are calling for in the case of eastern Ukraine, the British

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government seems to be doing little other than hang wringing when it

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comes to Gaza. I and many other people are doing a great deal and

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indeed Nick Clegg in an article he wrote for the Guardian, doing

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everything we can to alter the policy of the British government.

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Hold on. I believe the British government's position has been too

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literal. Nearly 2000 citizens of Gaza have been killed in

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circumstances where Israel, which has some of the most sophisticated

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military equipment, has essentially imposed a collective punishment.

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That is wrong and that is why I shall do everything in my power to

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persuade the British government to say it is wrong. When Ed Miliband

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says that David Cameron and the British government should have

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imposed in Gaza, you would agree with him? I would agree with a

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position which Nick Clegg and in the Liberal Democrats have taken up. If

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Ed Miliband belatedly wants to come along and support that position, I

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am in favour of that, but you have to remember that a lot of the time,

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the Labour Party's position is more concerned about next May in the

:11:36.:11:44.

immediate impact of their policy. It is the anniversary tomorrow of the

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outbreak of the First World War. Many people are making comparisons

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with the situation now and the situation in August, 1914. It's not

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just eastern Ukraine. There is Libya, Syria, Iraq, possibly Lebanon

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now, where it looks as if the West has lost any sense of what it is

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doing. Do you think we are entering into a situation which is more

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dangerous than recently? I agree with the last part of your question.

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There is instability. But you have to ask yourself if the implication

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of your question is, why are we not doing more, what could we do? It has

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been suggested we should take military action against Syria. There

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is a limited amount of military capability in this country and I

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haven't had many people who are particularly interested in defence

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matters arguing that in order to maintain defence capability, we

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should cut expenditure in other areas like health and education.

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Joining me now from Inverness is energy economist

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Tony Mackay and Jim Wyllie is a lecturer in International Relations

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at the University of Aberdeen and is in our studio there.

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Is it true you were a drinking partner of the Russian prime

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minister? Are yes, I worked in Moscow the a few years. He and I are

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old friends. You can give us some insight into how you believe the

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Russians will react to this new wave of sanctions. Will they back off or

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will it make them more determined to stick on the course they are on? In

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the short run, President Putin is determined to stick to his current

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policies. It will have negative impacts for Scotland. BP is a very

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important player in the Russian oil industry and has a very good track

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record of using supplies from Aberdeen and elsewhere in Scotland

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that has worked with in the North Sea in Russia. There are companies,

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particularly in the Aberdeen area, that will be affected by these

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sanctions. Will they be affected in the short term? Presumably, those

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sorts of things these people are involved in our medium to short-term

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contracts. You are probably right. Also, the oil industry in Scotland

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is going through a boom period, both in the North Sea and exports to west

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Africa and the Caspian Sea. The companies that temporarily lose

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contracts in the Russian Federation can probably find alternative

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markets elsewhere. But there are other risks. I saw the other day

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that Russia has banned imports of Polish apples, a few years ago, it

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banned Georgian wine. So there are risks to scotch whiskey, salmon and

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other exports. You think the whole sanctions policy is wrong. Explain

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why. Sanctions are invariably strategic. It is when politicians

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want to show the electorate they feel about something but don't know

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what to do so they have sanctions. Surely you are not suggesting

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military action? I didn't even hint at it. That would be crazy. What

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needs to happen is to ask ourselves, what have other people done? They

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would have called an international conference. This... The great powers

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would have sat down and recognise the realities on the ground in this

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particular part of the world. Russia has got huge interest and in terms

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of capabilities, in terms of resolve, or the balances in

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Russia's favour. The Ukraine is not part of the EU all NATO but

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nonetheless, the great powers would have had influence on moderating

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Russian demands and recognising the realities on the ground. Please let

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me finish. The point I put two Ming Campbell is, do you believe there is

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a danger that we in the West put Vladimir Putin in a position where

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he cannot give in? This is what I was talking about when I said the

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balance of resolve. The nature of the sanctions were imposing, for

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example a ban on future military contract but carrying on with the

:17:27.:17:32.

current ones. For example, drawing some spurious distinction between

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energy development, but somehow we are going to try and control, but

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current drilling and exploration can go on. This demonstrates that

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really, at the bottom of it all, we don't quite have the resolve. Now,

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let's not conflate the issue of the downing of the airliner, that

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tragedy, with the other issues. That was an incident in the wider

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strategic problem. That wider problem is how to deal with Russian

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interests in this part of the world. Economic war at the very time when

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the Argentina are defaulting and Germany has hurtling towards zero

:18:16.:18:18.

growth, Portugal and Italy are on the verge of another economic

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crisis, then to go into economic war with Russia is absolute nonsense.

:18:27.:18:33.

Tony Mackay, again from your insight from working with the Russian state,

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do you agree with that, do you think they would be receptive to an

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approach that would say let's put to one side the issue of the airliner

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and have an investigation into it, but let's all get down to sit at a

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table and try and sort this out? Now, I think it is part of a wider

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problem. I have been working in Ukraine for the last couple of

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years. The Russian Federation is very strongly opposed to greater

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integration between Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, with the

:19:05.:19:09.

European Union. They have been trying everything they can to stop

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that, including threats about increases in gas prices to Germany

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and Italy. So, I don't think it is limited to the Ukraine. I certainly

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think personally that the European Union does have to take a strong

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stand against these issues. We will have to leave it there. Thank you to

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both of you for joining us. A series of events to mark

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the 100th anniversary of the First World War will begin

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across the country tomorrow. In Glasgow a service of memorial

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will be held at the city's cathedral, next week more than 8,000

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people from across Scotland are expected to remember the fallen

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at a service at Edinburgh Castle. Our reporter looks back at the role

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Scots played in the Great War. Hello darling, this is the Army. I

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just have the time to write. PC this war will end all wars. I really hope

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it will. Scottish troops played a crucial role in the great War,

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recognisable in their kilts, referred to by some as the ladies

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from hell, they played significant parts in the Battle of Loos, the

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Somme, Paris and Cambrai. 100,000 Scottish soldiers lost their lives.

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Glasgow alone left 18,000 men -- lost. Many rural communities were

:20:40.:20:45.

changed profoundly. Scotland lost more of its trips in the conflict

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than in any other country in relative terms. It had industrial

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forces behind it. It was the first time nations could use railways,

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modern rifles and explosives. That industrial power forced up the death

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toll. In the aftermath, the league of Nations was designed to avoid a

:21:10.:21:15.

repeat of such large-scale loss, by favouring mutual disarmament and

:21:16.:21:19.

settling disputes through negotiation and arbitration. But the

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contradiction between collective security and states' national

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interests was clear. Arguably, 100 years on, national interest is still

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paramount. But what has changed is the way European politicians pursue

:21:36.:21:36.

those interests. I am joined in the studio by

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Peter Jackson who's Chair in Global Security studies at

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Glasgow University. Let me perhaps get things the wrong

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way round and start asking you about the present before I ask you about

:21:53.:21:57.

the past. There is a theme in this programme. Sanctions in Ukraine

:21:58.:22:05.

which we have spoken about. Niall Ferguson in The Financial Times was

:22:06.:22:10.

seeing the situation in eastern Ukraine could be a parallel to what

:22:11.:22:15.

happened in 1914 in the sense that a whole lot of things came together,

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no one was really aware of what -- were war was going to break out at

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the time, and suddenly warm was going on which nobody actually

:22:26.:22:31.

wanted. Is there a parallel? I think there are some interesting

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parallels, but I don't think we should be pushed too far. Niall

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Ferguson tends to parallels too far as a matter of habit. I suppose the

:22:39.:22:47.

big parallel would be the role of Serbia in 1914 and the role of the

:22:48.:22:52.

Ukraine, especially the separatist elements in eastern Ukraine, today.

:22:53.:22:56.

In other words, there was a frontier region which was considered vital to

:22:57.:23:01.

the security of a much larger rate power, Russia in 2014, Austria

:23:02.:23:08.

Hungary in 1914. And was external involvement in the form of Western

:23:09.:23:13.

support for Ukraine and their democratic processes to the extent

:23:14.:23:19.

that they exist, versus Russian support for Serbia in 1914 which was

:23:20.:23:25.

considered a direct threat to the security of the Austro-Hungarian

:23:26.:23:30.

Empire. Eastern Ukraine is not the only parallel which has been made.

:23:31.:23:33.

Last year, the Economist magazine was seeing there could be an August

:23:34.:23:41.

1914 situation, but it was pointing to East Asia and to the Americans

:23:42.:23:48.

and the tensions over the islands between Japan and China. Are these

:23:49.:23:56.

real parallels, or are we just too fond of making parallels? I am of

:23:57.:24:02.

the opinion that history doesn't tend to repeat itself. All you can

:24:03.:24:07.

draw parallels, every political situation is different. The

:24:08.:24:15.

situation in East Asia just now is very different to the Balkans in

:24:16.:24:21.

1914. A lot of little things can happen, and while politicians and

:24:22.:24:26.

diplomats like to talk to us, and sometimes historians, in terms of

:24:27.:24:31.

grand strategy, as if all these things are planned out in the agents

:24:32.:24:37.

of histamine or what they are doing, obviously the First World War

:24:38.:24:41.

crept up on them. Who could have said that ISIS would take over

:24:42.:24:49.

sections of Iraq in silly? I can not agree more. It is one lesson is that

:24:50.:24:57.

historians and policymakers should learn from the past. The medium and

:24:58.:25:02.

long-term consequences of decisions made today are always to a certain

:25:03.:25:07.

extent imponderable. It is important to reflect carefully on how things

:25:08.:25:11.

might go wrong. It is in that sense I think that if we learn any lessons

:25:12.:25:22.

from 1914, I would think that decisions to adopt a more

:25:23.:25:25.

confrontational policy to escalate tensions can actually lead to

:25:26.:25:30.

unforeseen consequences in conflict. I don't think that is going to

:25:31.:25:35.

happen in 2014 over the Ukraine, or at least in the short or medium term

:25:36.:25:42.

in the Pacific region. Let's go to the past. There was almost an

:25:43.:25:49.

orthodoxy for a long time that the great War, unlike the Second World

:25:50.:25:52.

War, neither side was particularly more right than the others. They

:25:53.:25:59.

were a bunch of generals sending hundreds of innocent working people

:26:00.:26:03.

to the slaughter. Is that still the dominant view? That was the dominant

:26:04.:26:09.

view for a very long time. The origins of the First World War are

:26:10.:26:13.

very different from the origins of the Second World War. In the 1960s,

:26:14.:26:20.

however, a historian came up with a new argument that one could actually

:26:21.:26:25.

trace continuity between Germany's aims in the First World War, which

:26:26.:26:32.

were to build an empire in central Europe and Eastern European Russia,

:26:33.:26:38.

and those of the long-term goals of Nazi foreign policy in 1939. From

:26:39.:26:46.

the early 1960s until the 1990s, historians debated over the merits

:26:47.:26:51.

of that thesis, but most have argued that Germany did behave more

:26:52.:26:57.

recklessly than the other powers in 1914, mainly because it considered

:26:58.:27:02.

the long-term trajectories of the balance of power to be working

:27:03.:27:06.

against it. The other thing would be the outcome of the First World War.

:27:07.:27:11.

One of the things this seems to be consensus on is that the Allies'

:27:12.:27:15.

punitive attitude to Germany at least helped to pave the way for the

:27:16.:27:19.

Second World War, perhaps a lesson we should learn from regarding

:27:20.:27:26.

current circumstances? I agree with your line of argument. It is

:27:27.:27:30.

important not to back the current Russian government into a corner. In

:27:31.:27:37.

that sense, I am in agreement with some of the commentators we heard

:27:38.:27:42.

from a few moments ago. However, I don't think that the parallels with

:27:43.:27:47.

the Paris peace conference, the Treaty of Versailles, are all that

:27:48.:27:53.

relevant. Most historians nowadays consider that the Treaty of

:27:54.:27:57.

Versailles was far less punitive than it was characterised to have

:27:58.:28:02.

been after 1919. On that intriguing thought, we will have to leave it

:28:03.:28:04.

there. Thank you. Let's cross now

:28:05.:28:08.

for the news with Andrew Kerr. The defence contractor Babcock

:28:09.:28:13.

has warned independence could But the Scottish government insists

:28:14.:28:17.

a yes vote will protect jobs Babcock has repeatedly raised

:28:18.:28:23.

concerns about They claim it is unlikely all

:28:24.:28:31.

existing naval support staff The centre of Glasgow has been

:28:32.:28:45.

closed for the cycling road race. The men's event started

:28:46.:28:53.

a short time ago. England's Lizzie Armistead went one

:28:54.:28:54.

better than four years ago in New Dehli as she claimed gold

:28:55.:28:57.

in the women's event. Crowds have been gathering to cheer

:28:58.:29:00.

on the cyclists as they take on some of

:29:01.:29:02.

the city's remarkably steep hills. And the Commonwealth Games will draw

:29:03.:29:09.

to a close tonight at Hampden. Organisers say it will be just

:29:10.:29:13.

as Glaswegian as the opening Organisers say it will be just

:29:14.:30:55.

are clear. I have access to a marketplace of 65 million customers.

:30:56.:30:58.

I work with the same tax system and don't have to deal with currency

:30:59.:31:03.

exchange rates. All of this is critical to the success of

:31:04.:31:06.

businesses in the UK. From a branding perspective, I have the

:31:07.:31:12.

flexibility of being able to advertise myself as either a

:31:13.:31:15.

Scottish company or a British company. That is hugely important in

:31:16.:31:21.

the food and drinks industry. 600,000 Scottish jobs are dependent

:31:22.:31:28.

on UK-based companies. Independence puts all of the Scottish jobs at

:31:29.:31:33.

risk. I believe we need to do more to ensure that the affordability of

:31:34.:31:38.

childcare and we need to do more to ensure equal pay for women. We need

:31:39.:31:42.

to do more to get women into the boardroom and into business. We need

:31:43.:31:47.

to do more to get women into our Parliament and civil service. But we

:31:48.:31:50.

don't need to take the rest of independence to achieve this. Have

:31:51.:31:54.

all the powers necessary to do that today. As a mother, I am concerned

:31:55.:32:02.

about my children's future. Independence is an irreversible

:32:03.:32:05.

decision. I want my children to grow up in a country that is

:32:06.:32:09.

forward-looking, not inward looking and insular. I believe they can and

:32:10.:32:13.

do have the best of both worlds. We need to retain the strength and

:32:14.:32:17.

security of the UK, while bringing in more powers for Scotland.

:32:18.:32:21.

Ruth McKay there, and next week we will have our next guest to explain

:32:22.:32:24.

Now it is time to have a look at what is coming up in the week ahead.

:32:25.:32:34.

I'm joined by David Clegg, who's political editor at the

:32:35.:32:36.

Daily Record, and Isobel Lindsay, vice chair of Scottish CND and

:32:37.:32:39.

Let's start with what we have been talking about. Do you feel worried?

:32:40.:32:57.

It has been very unsettling in the last few months. We have gone from

:32:58.:33:05.

one situation to the other. You can't help but watch the scenes in

:33:06.:33:11.

Gaza and feel distraught. The situation in Ukraine is extremely

:33:12.:33:14.

worrying because we thought the Cold War had been resolved. Now it

:33:15.:33:22.

appears we are heading back to a situation where these are issues we

:33:23.:33:26.

have to consider again. I am not lying awake at night but it is

:33:27.:33:31.

something that is troubling and concerning. It is not just those

:33:32.:33:36.

areas, though. Who could have guessed a few months ago that a

:33:37.:33:42.

caliphate would be declared in parts of Syria and Iraq? Look at Libya as

:33:43.:33:53.

well. Indeed. And you wonder what our security services have been

:33:54.:33:56.

doing with the massive amount of resources that they have. But it

:33:57.:34:03.

does suggest that it is not desirable that Scotland is here,

:34:04.:34:09.

with 200 nuclear weapons sitting 25 miles up the road from us. It is an

:34:10.:34:16.

illustration about why we should look at serious disarmament. Part of

:34:17.:34:23.

the problem here is also there is a lot of hypocrisy on our side because

:34:24.:34:29.

you look at the situation of all these crises. Where are the calls

:34:30.:34:39.

for sanctions against Israel? We are still selling them military

:34:40.:34:41.

equipment that has been used in Gaza. The last point has a lot of

:34:42.:34:52.

validity. Very little being done about what is going on with Israel.

:34:53.:34:57.

That is a charge that is very difficult to defend. Before we get

:34:58.:35:03.

too serious, Commonwealth Games, enjoyed it? It has been fantastic.

:35:04.:35:11.

It has been a wonderful event. The atmosphere in Glasgow has been

:35:12.:35:16.

superb and the medal in the Scotland has exceeded expectations. You are

:35:17.:35:27.

not a Usain Bolt fan? I have no taste for jamborees and sport but I

:35:28.:35:30.

like to see people enjoying themselves so in that sense, it has

:35:31.:35:34.

been great. There has been an interesting metaphor there. We have

:35:35.:35:40.

had quite a lot of athletes that have taken part, doing very well.

:35:41.:35:47.

They would never have got a chance if it had just been Team GB. Because

:35:48.:35:59.

you have had these wider teams... It is on the front page of the

:36:00.:36:10.

Observer. Subtle, isn't it? I am not sure what Nicola Sturgeon said

:36:11.:36:16.

exactly that! I don't think this is a huge player but I don't think it's

:36:17.:36:21.

unhelpful if things are done well. I do remember 1979 and I do remember

:36:22.:36:28.

things like Argentina were no help in terms of the feeling of

:36:29.:36:32.

depression in Scotland about our ability to do things well. Do you

:36:33.:36:41.

think the success of the Commonwealth Games has any relevance

:36:42.:36:43.

to the independence debate? Absolutely not. That story has been

:36:44.:36:50.

stretched to the max to get the headline. However, anyone saying

:36:51.:36:57.

that is talking nonsense because politics is politics and sport

:36:58.:37:03.

sport. Scotland has enjoyed the Commonwealth Games immensely but no

:37:04.:37:05.

one will think about that when they cast a vote. Let's look at some of

:37:06.:37:11.

the other papers. On Tuesday, the debate between Alex Salmond and

:37:12.:37:21.

Alistair Darling is coming up. Who do you think will win and what is

:37:22.:37:26.

win mean and does it matter? It matters more than the Commonwealth

:37:27.:37:31.

Games, certainly. We have had a nice breather period and what the debate

:37:32.:37:38.

on Tuesday is going to do will kick-start the fight. We will have

:37:39.:37:41.

six weeks of real campaigning. As far as who will win, I would expect

:37:42.:37:46.

Alex Salmond to come off better overall but the problem he has is

:37:47.:37:52.

that the general expectation from everyone is he will make mincemeat

:37:53.:37:58.

of Alistair Darling. Even though a win a win because expectations are

:37:59.:38:06.

so high. Or Alistair Darling needs do is defend. How are you feeling

:38:07.:38:13.

about this? While there have been instances of debates that have made

:38:14.:38:21.

a difference, one of the Balmer once set his campaign back -- one of the

:38:22.:38:35.

Barack Obama ones. Debates like this are very important. The reason is

:38:36.:38:40.

sitting next to me. Sorry, David, you are not too bad, but print media

:38:41.:38:47.

is so heavily weighted towards the no campaign and because of that,

:38:48.:38:56.

broadcasting is different. Broadcasting has to have some equity

:38:57.:39:01.

in presentation. There just has to be fair broadcasting debates. That

:39:02.:39:09.

is why the debates are very important.

:39:10.:39:11.

Scotland's Golden Games at 6.05pm on BBC One Scotland.

:39:12.:39:19.

Jackie Bird is joined by reporters and guests across Glasgow as

:39:20.:39:22.

the city prepares for the closing ceremony of the Commonwealth Games.

:39:23.:39:25.

and finding the remains of Sunday's chicken.

:39:26.:40:34.

In my book, leftovers should be a joy, not a chore.

:40:35.:40:39.