01/11/2015 Sunday Politics Scotland


01/11/2015

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by shadow home office minister Keir Starmer and Conservative MPs David Davis and Philip Davies.


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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:11.:01:11.

Kezia Dugdale makes a pitch to reclaim progressive policies with

:01:12.:01:14.

a pledge Labour will use tax and welfare powers to restore tax

:01:15.:01:16.

cuts to tax credits finally came to a head last week with a defeat

:01:17.:01:41.

in the Lords and serious dissent among Tory MPs in the Commons.

:01:42.:01:45.

George Osborne has gone back to the drawing board on tax credits

:01:46.:01:47.

and promised to "deal with" the House of Lords, whose actions

:01:48.:01:51.

The Prime Minister set up a review of the Lord's powers.

:01:52.:01:58.

That review is being headed by hereditary Tory peer

:01:59.:02:01.

He had agreed to do an interview with us this morning but 10

:02:02.:02:06.

Downing Street phoned us yesterday to pull him from the show.

:02:07.:02:15.

We think the government does not want us to talk about tax credits,

:02:16.:02:25.

so let's talk about tax credits. Janan, will the Chancellor now get

:02:26.:02:29.

away with some fine tuning, with some tweaking, or does he have to

:02:30.:02:34.

start from scratch? Even the tweaking is very difficult. It is

:02:35.:02:40.

technically difficult to reform the policy while simultaneously helping

:02:41.:02:44.

people who stand to lose out. It is fiscally difficult because the

:02:45.:02:47.

current policy saves about ?4 billion, a third of the ?12 billion

:02:48.:02:53.

he pledged to fine from welfare. There is no managerial way of doing

:02:54.:02:59.

it. What could be done is either projecting, or hoping for

:03:00.:03:03.

projections of higher tax receipts so he has to cut less. The deficit

:03:04.:03:09.

is not as bad. Or move the target for getting rid of the deficit and

:03:10.:03:15.

achieving the surplus year later. It is a much more fundamental solution.

:03:16.:03:21.

It was only a few months ago the Tory press thought Mr Osborne walked

:03:22.:03:26.

on water. His reputation has taken a real battering from this. In a very

:03:27.:03:33.

short time, three weeks since the Tory party conference when they

:03:34.:03:36.

walked out in a state of Triumph and euphoria. This budget looks like

:03:37.:03:41.

another omnishambles and considerably more serious. Last time

:03:42.:03:47.

it was funny with pasty taxes. This time, can he really drive through

:03:48.:03:52.

all these cuts? At the moment he is trying to put imposed 40% cuts which

:03:53.:04:00.

are undoable, like local government. This is only the first of many more

:04:01.:04:06.

that will come, this undertaking. Ministers will cave in and accept

:04:07.:04:10.

the cuts, but their departments will fall apart and they will rebel.

:04:11.:04:19.

Against a weaker Chancellor. Yes. As Janan says, there is no tweaking

:04:20.:04:23.

available. He gives back exactly the same amount of money he takes away,

:04:24.:04:28.

or these hard-working people will be out of pocket. What do you hear

:04:29.:04:33.

about what might be in the pipeline? We have got the Autumn

:04:34.:04:37.

Statement and a comprehensive review, a three-year rolling

:04:38.:04:41.

spending plan. It is on the last Wednesday of this month and now we

:04:42.:04:48.

are in November, what is he up to? He is going to pony up and pony up

:04:49.:04:54.

megabucks thanks to Rupert Harrison, his former economics

:04:55.:04:58.

adviser and he devised the deficit reduction plan in the last

:04:59.:05:01.

Parliament and the plan to target the surplus in this Parliament. It

:05:02.:05:06.

sounds really hard line, there is no change from plan A, but it always

:05:07.:05:12.

has written into it plan B and planned sea. He has delayed by one

:05:13.:05:16.

year the targeting of the surplus and he could delay it by a further

:05:17.:05:20.

year and still reach it by the time of the general election. Or he could

:05:21.:05:26.

say because the OBE I will revise down economic growth forecasts by

:05:27.:05:30.

the time of the Autumn Statement, the 10 billion he is meant to

:05:31.:05:36.

achieve by 2019-2020, that could come down. The Chancellor is in a

:05:37.:05:40.

hole and he is not stupid and he is going to get out of it and he is

:05:41.:05:44.

going to spend a lot of money, but he will sound hard line by duffing

:05:45.:05:51.

up the House of Lords. Do we take it seriously, the duffing up of the

:05:52.:05:55.

House of Lords to reflect from the tax credits strimmer? Strimmer,

:05:56.:06:01.

rumpus, whatever you want to call it. There was a lot of talk about

:06:02.:06:08.

them stuffing the Lords... With Tory peers? Which ended badly the last

:06:09.:06:14.

time it happened about 100 years ago. I cannot believe they will do

:06:15.:06:18.

anything as provocative as that, but if he wired House of Lords another

:06:19.:06:24.

incident like this and you make the argument for your own abolition.

:06:25.:06:27.

There is a good argument for reform and abolition. I do not see why the

:06:28.:06:34.

Lords should not do this as often as they want as long as the government

:06:35.:06:42.

refuses to have a democratic debate. Willie Whitelaw is not of the most

:06:43.:06:45.

ferocious people in the entire political system. We could have put

:06:46.:06:51.

him through the fire this morning, but at least we did not talk about

:06:52.:06:55.

Now, how far should the security services be able to spy

:06:56.:06:58.

This week the Government will publish draft legislation to create

:06:59.:07:02.

new powers and a new framework for the security services as they adapt

:07:03.:07:05.

to the ever-growing challenges of digital communications being used by

:07:06.:07:07.

the bad guys - terrorists, criminals,

:07:08.:07:09.

paedophiles. But is there still a danger the privacy of innocent

:07:10.:07:11.

Joe public gets gets violated as the power to intrude is extended?

:07:12.:07:15.

There is not one person at MI6 who is not talking about it.

:07:16.:07:26.

What, the upcoming draft Investigatory Powers Bill?

:07:27.:07:31.

Sadly, my invite to the premiere of the new film got lost in the post,

:07:32.:07:38.

In the new Bond film in which he drives this, one of the themes is

:07:39.:07:45.

surveillance in the Internet age, and Westminster is revving up

:07:46.:07:49.

for a potential row about how much the police and intelligence agencies

:07:50.:07:54.

Because in the Goldfinger years of the '60s, it was easy to spy

:07:55.:08:02.

on the villains, tail their Rolls or tap their phone.

:08:03.:08:06.

Now, in the Daniel Craig era, the spooks need new weapons to track

:08:07.:08:09.

One source told me that the work at places like the listening post

:08:10.:08:19.

GCHQ has shifted from looking for a needle in a haystack to finding a

:08:20.:08:22.

piece of hay in a haystack, and so a big question will be, how does the

:08:23.:08:26.

goverment handle what is called bulk data? In other words,

:08:27.:08:30.

looking at everyone's web activity to isolate the dodgy stuff.

:08:31.:08:35.

Not something to worry about, say security types.

:08:36.:08:39.

They are not interested in whether Lord West is having

:08:40.:08:41.

They do not care, they do not look at that.

:08:42.:08:45.

What they want to know is, am I talking to a bomb maker in the

:08:46.:08:49.

Yemen who is talking to someone who they know has carried out an attack

:08:50.:08:52.

in the Middle East before, who is talking to some American group that

:08:53.:08:55.

we know are terrorists, that is talking to some people

:08:56.:08:58.

When they get all these linkages, they hone it down and hone it down,

:08:59.:09:04.

they use big data in the sense they use other techniques to refine it,

:09:05.:09:08.

then they will say, this is extremely worrying, there is

:09:09.:09:10.

something going on and then they will say, we want to go and look

:09:11.:09:14.

at the detail of what is in these e-mails, or on social media.

:09:15.:09:19.

But it scares the living daylights out of

:09:20.:09:21.

The big issue for her, whether judges get to be involved.

:09:22.:09:29.

At the moment, if someone wants to tap your telephone,

:09:30.:09:33.

it is the Foreign Secretary or the Home Secretary who decides.

:09:34.:09:36.

Normally in democracies we think there is a role for the judiciary in

:09:37.:09:39.

This has not happened in the UK compared to the US or elsewhere

:09:40.:09:44.

We also need to look to see the extent to which the security

:09:45.:09:50.

agencies seek more power, do they want the power to hack our

:09:51.:09:54.

Something that was considered outrageous when journalists did it,

:09:55.:10:02.

is it now going to be OK for the spooks?

:10:03.:10:08.

When the last Bond film came out three years ago, Parliament was

:10:09.:10:13.

fighting over the so-called snoopers' charter, which would have

:10:14.:10:17.

compelled Internet companies to keep and hand over a lot of our data.

:10:18.:10:23.

It was thrown out when Nick Clegg played the role of Dr No

:10:24.:10:26.

A security minded Conservative told me this could be another car crash,

:10:27.:10:36.

because there are enough Tory MPs worried about civil liberties that

:10:37.:10:39.

the government will need Labour support in the Commons,

:10:40.:10:42.

So, will your browsing history remain for Your Eyes Only,

:10:43.:10:50.

do you trust Her Majesty's Secret Service, or are the worriers just

:10:51.:10:53.

Stay tuned for Theresa May's new legislation, coming soon.

:10:54.:11:03.

Hopefully they do not ban bad James Bond puns.

:11:04.:11:11.

Well, James Bond puns are unlikely to be outlawed but on the

:11:12.:11:15.

Andrew Marr Show this morning the Home Secretary, Theresa May,

:11:16.:11:17.

did confirm that internet service providers would have to keep

:11:18.:11:20.

She was also asked about whether judges would need to

:11:21.:11:25.

As I say, the three reviews came up with three

:11:26.:11:32.

David Anderson was clear that he thought, partly

:11:33.:11:36.

in relation to future proofing on future legislation, future legal

:11:37.:11:38.

challenges, perhaps, judicial authorisation was the right way.

:11:39.:11:41.

The parliamentary committee, the intelligence and security committee

:11:42.:11:44.

of Parliament, said there should be executive authorisation, i.e.

:11:45.:11:47.

the Secretary of State should still do it because

:11:48.:11:50.

We have looked at all of those arguments and listened to what

:11:51.:11:57.

people have said, and we will be bringing forward the government's

:11:58.:11:59.

position on Wednesday, but as I say, I am very clear that what we will

:12:00.:12:03.

bring forward has very strong oversight arrangements.

:12:04.:12:05.

We're joined now by the Shadow Home Office Minister and former Director

:12:06.:12:08.

of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer.

:12:09.:12:14.

Welcome, this is the first time we have had due on. It is. As a general

:12:15.:12:22.

principle do you support stronger have had due on. It is. As a general

:12:23.:12:26.

powers for the intelligence services in accessing digital data? There is

:12:27.:12:32.

a case for a new law. We have been patching up for a very long time,

:12:33.:12:38.

the law is out of date. It is very important we have no go areas for

:12:39.:12:42.

those involved in serious offending like terrorism and child sexual

:12:43.:12:50.

abuse. And organised crime. And organised crime and when I was DPP

:12:51.:12:54.

we rarely prosecuted without relying on data and this is important for

:12:55.:12:59.

protecting the public. Is judicial as opposed to ministerial approval

:13:00.:13:03.

of warrants to be able to do this, is that a red line issue? It is. We

:13:04.:13:11.

have the chance to have a modern, comprehensive law that sets out the

:13:12.:13:16.

powers for law enforcement and the security services and at the same

:13:17.:13:20.

time we have the chance, a historic chance, to get the safeguards

:13:21.:13:26.

right. One of the safeguard is judicial authorisation of intercept

:13:27.:13:30.

roles. There is a big difference between data and content. By content

:13:31.:13:35.

you mean what are people actually saying to each other? That should be

:13:36.:13:41.

signed off by a judge. That is what happens in other countries. That is

:13:42.:13:46.

the real issue. In fairness, Theresa May has backed off from the original

:13:47.:13:52.

plans and faced up to some of the criticism, but it is really a chance

:13:53.:13:58.

now for all of us to agree a framework for the future that is on

:13:59.:14:02.

the one hand giving the authorities the powers they need, but on the

:14:03.:14:08.

other hand entrenching in law the right safeguards and judicial

:14:09.:14:12.

oversight is important in that. We do not know exactly what she is

:14:13.:14:15.

going to say, she has to tell Parliament first, but in the Sunday

:14:16.:14:23.

Times there is the ideal of a 2 tier system that an initial warrant, for

:14:24.:14:31.

example what is my browsing history? The initial one would be issued by

:14:32.:14:37.

the Home Secretary, but if you want to get into the content of what is

:14:38.:14:40.

in these websites and what I have been sending, that needs to be a

:14:41.:14:45.

judge. That is one idea that has been mooted, what is your reaction

:14:46.:14:55.

to that? I am not in favour of took your system. If you're going to go

:14:56.:15:00.

for content, we should go to a judge straightaway. Roughly speaking,

:15:01.:15:07.

there are about 2500 warrants per year for interceptions. That is a

:15:08.:15:10.

very high number for a Home Secretary to deal with. In reality,

:15:11.:15:14.

that means that a lot of the preparation is done by her team, for

:15:15.:15:18.

her to look at. There is nothing wrong with that and I am not being

:15:19.:15:23.

critical of the team, but it would be far better if it was done by a

:15:24.:15:28.

judge, independent of any of the operations, independent from all the

:15:29.:15:34.

parties. It is a classically judge test, is it necessary,

:15:35.:15:38.

proportionate, focused on the right person? This is what is done in

:15:39.:15:41.

other countries and this would settle this dispute and allow

:15:42.:15:46.

everybody to move on, the consensus is important. This could be a

:15:47.:15:49.

historic moment if the Home Secretary will allow it. She has

:15:50.:15:55.

stepped in the right direction. If she completes on that by having the

:15:56.:15:59.

right safeguards, that is a prize worth having. However, who would be

:16:00.:16:07.

accountable if a judge refused a warrant, not a politician, what a

:16:08.:16:12.

judge, and as a result, there was a terrorist attack? Who do we hold

:16:13.:16:18.

accountable? One idea would be to have a panel of judges, a commission

:16:19.:16:22.

of judges. There are many judges that are clear to do this sort of

:16:23.:16:26.

work. Individual decisions have to be made. In the main, we hope the

:16:27.:16:37.

decisions are right. We could not hold a judge accountable? If the

:16:38.:16:40.

Home Secretary gets it wrong, she's accountable, she has to appear

:16:41.:16:42.

before Parliament, come on television, it could be the end of

:16:43.:16:44.

her job. The judge would be accountable? We have always had a

:16:45.:16:49.

system of accountability with judges that relies on the right person

:16:50.:16:52.

making the decision in the first place and after the event,

:16:53.:16:56.

investigation and looking at the warrants that had been issued. That

:16:57.:17:01.

system did continue. It is difficult, we are arguing in the

:17:02.:17:05.

dark, but I do not accept the proposition that if you put it to an

:17:06.:17:08.

independent judge that is a lesser safeguard than if you put it to the

:17:09.:17:16.

Home Secretary. These are decisions about how privacy is too precious to

:17:17.:17:18.

be left with the Home Secretary. It should be done by a judge. Within

:17:19.:17:22.

these constraints, I take it you think that the Internet browsing

:17:23.:17:27.

history of every computer net device should be kept by Internet providers

:17:28.:17:32.

by 12 months? That is the position that David Anderson, the independent

:17:33.:17:36.

reviewer, proposed. We will have to see what is in the bill, but it

:17:37.:17:43.

needs to be as clearly can just rained -- clearly constrained as

:17:44.:17:46.

possible for as short a time as possible. How much, who accesses it,

:17:47.:17:57.

and what conditions, this is key. Your leader and deputy leader in the

:17:58.:18:00.

Labour Party has been opposed to this type of legislation. Mr Corbyn

:18:01.:18:06.

called previous attempts a massive intrusion into people's lives. What

:18:07.:18:12.

do you say to him? It is a massive intrusion, any interception of

:18:13.:18:16.

Communications is. The question is whether it is justified. I have

:18:17.:18:20.

worked with the police, Lauren Forstmann and the security services

:18:21.:18:25.

for five-year is, when I was Director of Public Prosecutions. I

:18:26.:18:28.

know how important it is that we get access to the material we need to

:18:29.:18:33.

get access to, not just in terrorist cases. As you say, you have been

:18:34.:18:41.

director of public and is. How much more difficult would it have been

:18:42.:18:44.

for you to get major convictions in serious cases without both the 2004

:18:45.:18:50.

and 2006 terrorist acts which Mr Corbyn opposed? Very difficult. We

:18:51.:18:54.

use them on a regular basis. I said that when I was in the job. I made

:18:55.:18:59.

the case that we should not lose capability and I am not going to

:19:00.:19:03.

change my mind. It is not just your leader or his deputy, many of the 22

:19:04.:19:08.

Labour MPs who voted against this previous piece of legislation on

:19:09.:19:12.

this subject area, they are the ones who nominated Mr Corbyn for Nader

:19:13.:19:17.

and they are now in power is the position and influence in your

:19:18.:19:22.

party. Do you see a serious split on this issue? I do not think so. I

:19:23.:19:29.

think Jeremy Corbyn listens to colleagues in policy response to the

:19:30.:19:34.

government. We will make a response when we have heard what the Home

:19:35.:19:42.

Secretary has said. We should seize the opportunity for proper

:19:43.:19:46.

safeguards. In fairness, in the past, Mr Corbyn and others were

:19:47.:19:49.

emphasising the case for safeguards which they did not think were strong

:19:50.:19:54.

enough. To clarify, I have been told that you have squared Mr Corbyn on

:19:55.:20:01.

this. In your view, if it is proper judicial oversight, then Mr Corbyn

:20:02.:20:07.

will go along with those measures? I would not use that expression but we

:20:08.:20:11.

have had a discussion. There is clarity in agreement that proper

:20:12.:20:15.

powers where they are needed, it is right to have proper safeguards. He

:20:16.:20:20.

is with you on that? Uncompromising on the safeguards is the position we

:20:21.:20:24.

should adopt, but do not stand in the way of the powers that are

:20:25.:20:29.

necessary for law enforcement and the security services where they are

:20:30.:20:31.

needed. You squared it, because you have got the agreement of the Labour

:20:32.:20:39.

leader on that. That is the position on what we have agreed. As an Andy

:20:40.:20:45.

Burnham biker in the election, how is Jeremy Corbyn doing, better or

:20:46.:20:49.

worse than you expected? Jeremy Corbyn got a massive mandate to lead

:20:50.:20:56.

the party. He has put together a broad team to lead the party. We are

:20:57.:21:01.

developing policy in response to the government's programme. We have a

:21:02.:21:05.

government at the moment that is extreme in the sense that it is

:21:06.:21:09.

pushing through provisions furiously and fast that it odd to be holding

:21:10.:21:13.

back and looking out to be scrutinised more carefully. I think

:21:14.:21:17.

we are doing fairly well in this exercise. You are London MP. London

:21:18.:21:25.

Labour got easily the most votes in the capital at the general election.

:21:26.:21:30.

Many people say this is a Labour city by and large. If Labour does

:21:31.:21:37.

not win the 2016 election for mayor, does that indicate that a general

:21:38.:21:43.

election victory under Mr Corbyn is a long, tough stretch? Listen, this

:21:44.:21:49.

time last year I was about to start a selection exercise to be selected

:21:50.:21:54.

as Frank Dobson's replacement as Labour candidate. We were all

:21:55.:21:57.

predicting what the general election would hold. I am not going to fall

:21:58.:22:02.

into the trap of trying to work out what will happen in 2020. I will say

:22:03.:22:07.

it is really important that Labour win that election. You need to win?

:22:08.:22:12.

We need to win London, local elections and the general election

:22:13.:22:17.

in 2020. It is an important test for Mr Corbyn, London? If you cannot win

:22:18.:22:22.

London, how would you win the country? It is a test for all of us.

:22:23.:22:29.

I accept that. We must win next year, the local election and the

:22:30.:22:31.

general election. We should focus on that. You have said that Jeremy

:22:32.:22:37.

Corbyn is not the Messiah. I do not think that came as a surprise even

:22:38.:22:43.

to those who voted for him or even Jeremy Corbyn. Is he John the

:22:44.:22:49.

Baptist? I said that Jeremy has broken or a space in which we could

:22:50.:22:53.

have a discussion about the project for the future. We had been lacking

:22:54.:22:59.

that. That space is there. Jeremy Corbyn is not the Messiah. He does

:23:00.:23:03.

not have all the answers and if you touch on, you are not healed. I was

:23:04.:23:11.

seeing, the heavy lifting for the future has to be done by all of us.

:23:12.:23:19.

Keir Starmer, thank you. It has been awhile since somebody has led the

:23:20.:23:24.

Labour Party with your name. Thank you.

:23:25.:23:26.

Now, it's been a torrid few weeks for the government on the issue

:23:27.:23:29.

of tax credits with senior Conservatives such as Boris Johnson

:23:30.:23:31.

and David Willets expressing unease about the Chancellor's proposed

:23:32.:23:34.

cuts, unease which turned into a pretty

:23:35.:23:35.

frightful week for the inhabitants of 10 and 11 Downing Street.

:23:36.:23:38.

Peers created a nightmare for the Chancellor by voting,

:23:39.:23:40.

in the House of Lords, to delay tax credit cuts and to compensate

:23:41.:23:43.

Later in the week, 20 Tory backbenchers, including Bernard

:23:44.:23:48.

Jenkin, Heidi Allen and Jacob Rees-Mogg, also sent shivers up

:23:49.:23:51.

Mr Osborne's spine when they backed a motion from Labour's Frank Field

:23:52.:23:53.

calling on the government to mitigate

:23:54.:23:57.

And there may have been sleepless nights for

:23:58.:23:59.

the Prime Minister over at number 10, too, with the EU once more

:24:00.:24:02.

He jetted off to Iceland where he courted controversy by appearing to

:24:03.:24:08.

some to be scare-mongering about life outside the EU.

:24:09.:24:12.

Mr Cameron had said the so-called "Norway option"

:24:13.:24:21.

of having access to the EU single market but little say over EU rules

:24:22.:24:24.

wrong for the UK and that he would "guard very strongly" against it.

:24:25.:24:28.

Now there's trouble brewing for the government over the spooks',

:24:29.:24:30.

Next week the government will unveil a draft Investigatory Powers Bill

:24:31.:24:34.

which former Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg described as

:24:35.:24:37.

And we're joined now by the former Shadow Home Secretary, David Davis.

:24:38.:24:46.

Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. If you go -- but judicial review,

:24:47.:25:01.

would I do it for you? Almost, it is not judicial review, it is judicial

:25:02.:25:06.

authorisation. I beg your pardon, authorisation of warrants by a

:25:07.:25:11.

judge, not a politician. That is 90% of the way they are. We have too

:25:12.:25:16.

much surveillance because they are not proper constraints or checks. If

:25:17.:25:21.

we got back, I would largely lose interest in the area, because it is

:25:22.:25:25.

no longer a real threat to our liberties. What about your attitude

:25:26.:25:29.

towards what I was speaking about with Keir Starmer, because it was

:25:30.:25:34.

briefed on from the Home Office, the 2-tier approach, an initial approach

:25:35.:25:37.

to find out what websites I am looking at, that comes from the Home

:25:38.:25:44.

Office, but to dig down to get into the content of what I have been

:25:45.:25:49.

doing, that needs a judge? No. The best guidance on this is the

:25:50.:25:53.

independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson, who

:25:54.:25:58.

issued a strong report on this. He said it has got to be independent

:25:59.:26:04.

and ideally overseen by the judiciary. It cannot be a policeman

:26:05.:26:08.

in the office next door, it cannot be a spy in the office next door, or

:26:09.:26:13.

the Home Secretary, it has to be independent. If you do that, you do

:26:14.:26:19.

not need a 2 tier system, you have a uniform approach. Our politicians

:26:20.:26:26.

not more accountable than judges? Any time I have asked a question of

:26:27.:26:29.

any minister on a security matter, even what Lord did you do this

:26:30.:26:32.

under, they never comment. There is no accountability. -- law. Look at

:26:33.:26:45.

America. 9/11. There were clear errors in the handling of

:26:46.:26:47.

intelligence. The head of the CIA went. Nobody paid a price for that.

:26:48.:26:56.

They should not have done in my view, but they did not pay a price.

:26:57.:27:01.

We take a very soft approach to this. Ministers are not really

:27:02.:27:05.

accountable. If they were, and string questions in Parliament, it

:27:06.:27:12.

would be different, but they are not. They may not be accountable

:27:13.:27:15.

enough, but many people will think they are more accountable than

:27:16.:27:17.

judges who have jobs for life. One minister said, judicial oversight of

:27:18.:27:23.

interception warrants is a bad idea, he did not mean oversight, he meant

:27:24.:27:31.

authorisation. If a bomb gets through because a judge refused to

:27:32.:27:35.

sign a warrant, what will happen? There is a much better way of doing

:27:36.:27:42.

it. Anderson points this out. Also, the other important report on this

:27:43.:27:47.

points this out. You have a proper oversight procedure as well. It

:27:48.:27:52.

backs up things. You have judges that do it, a single panel. They

:27:53.:27:59.

look in retrospect? Yes, add everything that is done, before or

:28:00.:28:03.

after any mistakes. They find them. The aim is to protect the public,

:28:04.:28:09.

that is aim. At the moment the Home Secretary does about ten of these

:28:10.:28:13.

warrants in a working day. It is impossible forward person to do

:28:14.:28:19.

this. It is bad practice, bad managerially, bad legally and bad in

:28:20.:28:23.

terms of counterterrorism. People who take your view of the quarter

:28:24.:28:29.

are lies, Canada, Australia, the United States, New Zealand also of

:28:30.:28:33.

judicial authorisation of warrants. I was looking at the figures, US

:28:34.:28:37.

judges approved 99.6% of all warrants. In the end, it makes no

:28:38.:28:44.

difference. The warrants are given. The warrants are given. The US

:28:45.:28:49.

Judges have been pulled up on this, it has been tightened up. They have

:28:50.:28:54.

somebody to put the other case which they did not have before. If you

:28:55.:28:59.

have a decent system, you do not take a bad warrant. You do not go to

:29:00.:29:03.

them with the expectation of being turned on, you make sure you have

:29:04.:29:07.

the right person at the rate basis. The percentage does not tell you

:29:08.:29:12.

much. If you do not get judicial authorisation, will you challenge

:29:13.:29:16.

this bill in the courts as you did the last bill? No, because the last

:29:17.:29:20.

one went through the Commons in the courts as you did the last bill? No,

:29:21.:29:23.

because the last one went through the Commons on Wednesday it had not

:29:24.:29:27.

been properly tested, so I thought, let's tested elsewhere. Parliament

:29:28.:29:30.

is a better test than court if it is allowed to do the job. I do not

:29:31.:29:34.

think this bill will get through the Commons or the House of Lords

:29:35.:29:38.

without judicial authorisation. Even if the government comes out without

:29:39.:29:41.

it this week, it will have to change again? There is a new consensus on

:29:42.:29:46.

this across the board, across the experts, the Spriggs, the parties

:29:47.:29:52.

and the Houses of Parliament. The Prime Minister consistently claims

:29:53.:29:55.

that he rules nothing out in Europe, but is it not the case that by

:29:56.:29:59.

rubbishing the Norwegian option as he did last week, it is clear he is

:30:00.:30:01.

determined to stay" Mac -- to stay. He wants to get an outcome which

:30:02.:30:24.

allows him to stay in. Attacking the Norwegian option is irrelevant.

:30:25.:30:31.

Sure, he wants to be able to negotiate to stay in. But the EU is

:30:32.:30:38.

in crisis. Many people on your side say it is such a crisis at the

:30:39.:30:43.

moment that a British exit could be a catalyst for the whole demise of

:30:44.:30:49.

the EU project. So why doesn't the Prime Minister make much tougher

:30:50.:30:53.

demands as the price for staying in? It would be a catastrophe if Europe

:30:54.:31:00.

was to lose us. He is caught in a conundrum. I broadly would agree

:31:01.:31:05.

with that argument. He should make extremely tough demands. Tell the

:31:06.:31:09.

British public it is a negotiation, you will not get everything, but we

:31:10.:31:16.

will put the outcome to you. The problem is any failure to achieve a

:31:17.:31:20.

complete success would be used as a weapon to beat him with and

:31:21.:31:25.

therefore he will aim lower in the hope to gain 100% success. It is the

:31:26.:31:27.

wrong analysis. The high We tried to get tough demands and

:31:28.:31:47.

didn't get everything. We were outnumbered. 14 to one. Now it is 26

:31:48.:31:53.

to one. 27 to one. Of course you don't get everything. Here, for the

:31:54.:31:57.

very reason you say, Europe is no longer in a position, in a strong

:31:58.:32:03.

position, its primary experiment, the bureau, is in a terrible state.

:32:04.:32:08.

Therefore we have stronger argument. Isn't it inevitable, given

:32:09.:32:13.

that, that when you finally get to know what the Prime Minister is

:32:14.:32:15.

asking for in some detail, and we may get that by the time of the

:32:16.:32:22.

summit in December, isn't it just the blunt truth that a huge chunk of

:32:23.:32:25.

your party, maybe most of it, is going to be deeply disappointed by

:32:26.:32:32.

the possibility of his demands? I don't think so. I think the truth of

:32:33.:32:36.

the matter is that everybody has condition to the fact the demands

:32:37.:32:41.

will be not the sort of substantive constitutional changes that some

:32:42.:32:47.

others wanted. People are therefore beginning to shake the position to

:32:48.:32:50.

the stance they take. One of the things about this, however, is that

:32:51.:32:56.

there is the option of a referendum, they have that option to exercise

:32:57.:33:01.

and they will try to get a resolution that way. That will

:33:02.:33:07.

pacify the situation. Tax credits. Should Mr Osborne tweak his tax

:33:08.:33:11.

credit plan to make it more acceptable? Or should he junk it and

:33:12.:33:17.

go back to the drawing board? Two things. He needs to achieve a reform

:33:18.:33:22.

in the tax credits process. It is just too expensive for what it

:33:23.:33:25.

does. He also needs to achieve fiscal balance or better by 2020.

:33:26.:33:31.

Those two things are absolute requirements, really. He doesn't

:33:32.:33:36.

need to do it all ratio. That is the issue. I sponsored a debate on

:33:37.:33:42.

Thursday in the Commons. It got amazing uniformity across the house.

:33:43.:33:46.

What came out of that was a simple feeling of, look, whatever you do,

:33:47.:33:51.

so long as it doesn't penalised the working poor, particularly the

:33:52.:33:56.

dependence, then we will go with it. That is the criteria. That is more

:33:57.:34:01.

than a tweak. A lot more. The simple truth is, look, if you are a single

:34:02.:34:07.

parent working, raising two kids, you can lose up to ?2000. You can't

:34:08.:34:15.

afford to lose a pound, actually. We will do more than a tweak, but

:34:16.:34:20.

getting to the same place in 2020 is good enough. The financial markets

:34:21.:34:23.

will actually accept that. They will say it's the end game that matters,

:34:24.:34:28.

not the stages on the way. Thank you for being with us today.

:34:29.:34:30.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:34:31.:34:33.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:34:34.:34:41.

Kezia Dugdale accuses the SNP of being too scared to set out what

:34:42.:34:47.

they'll do with additional tax and welfare powers -

:34:48.:34:50.

as she sets out new proposals on tax credits, education and the NHS.

:34:51.:35:01.

By using both at the Scottish Labour in May, you are voting to use new

:35:02.:35:06.

powers of the Scottish Parliament to restore the money lost through tax

:35:07.:35:07.

credit cups. Do poorer students in Scotland have

:35:08.:35:08.

fair access to university funding? We'll be asking the Education

:35:09.:35:11.

Secretary, Angela Constance. Now, the Scottish Labour Party is

:35:12.:35:17.

rounding off its conference in Perth with a debate about Trident nuclear

:35:18.:35:21.

weapons - we'll know the result Kezia Dugdale, the new leader,

:35:22.:35:24.

used her speech yesterday to announce plans to stop cuts

:35:25.:35:27.

in tax credit and give funds to The strategy is pretty obvious -

:35:28.:35:30.

to challenge the SNP's claim to be I'm joined from the conference

:35:31.:35:36.

in Perth by I got the impression that they were

:35:37.:35:52.

all a bit gloomy earlier in the weekend. Has Kezia Dugdale banished

:35:53.:35:57.

to cheer them up? I think she has. -- managed. They are having an

:35:58.:36:04.

authentic debate right now, taking place on Trident, it has added to

:36:05.:36:07.

that. There was a round of applause when it was suggested that it was a

:36:08.:36:13.

good thing that there were open decisions. It is the most lively

:36:14.:36:16.

conference debate I've seen for a long time. It was like the debate

:36:17.:36:20.

held in the same hall about whether the SNP would commit an independent

:36:21.:36:27.

Scotland to join Nato or not. A series of elements to the debate.

:36:28.:36:32.

There is the majority -- morality. There is the cost, associated with

:36:33.:36:36.

it. There is also the question of the jobs and, as well as patients

:36:37.:36:45.

pieces -- speeches against Trident, there are also speeches in favour of

:36:46.:36:54.

jobs. They are covering bases, talk of defence diversification was

:36:55.:36:57.

simply a fairy tale jobs. Against that, you have had two arguments.

:36:58.:37:01.

One, the cost is unsustainable and could be better used in other ways,

:37:02.:37:07.

and two, regardless of the cost, regardless of the jobs, it was just

:37:08.:37:11.

morally wrong to have that nuclear deterrent. The politics of this, I

:37:12.:37:16.

presumably they are trying to give themselves up to campaign in the

:37:17.:37:19.

elections next year. One imagines a lot of new people coming into the

:37:20.:37:24.

Labour Party are fed up of going out in the streets and don't want to go

:37:25.:37:28.

out and campus if they are being taunted by nuclear weapons by the

:37:29.:37:33.

SNP. That is an issue, certainly with the tax credits thing you

:37:34.:37:36.

mentioned earlier. It is an issue with Trident, however much they

:37:37.:37:43.

adopt, and I think they will vote for an anti-temp one -- for

:37:44.:37:51.

anti-Trident. I expect it will take a position against Trident. What

:37:52.:37:59.

about the wider UK party? This is a Westminster decision, decision will

:38:00.:38:01.

be made in the House of Commons as to whether to read -- to renew

:38:02.:38:07.

Trident or not. Two views. One saying the position here is futile,

:38:08.:38:10.

that the UK party will decide anyway. No, you heard argument that

:38:11.:38:18.

a vote here could be a lever for the wider UK party to say that the bomb

:38:19.:38:24.

should be banned entirely. You are right, it fits into a wider debate

:38:25.:38:28.

about the nature of the Scottish Labour Party and its fair and we

:38:29.:38:32.

have been looking at that and looking at the current condition of

:38:33.:38:34.

the Labour Party at this conference. Here is a report of that from my

:38:35.:38:36.

colleague. This week, Labour supporters have

:38:37.:38:42.

been reflecting on a giant of their movement. The great founder of the

:38:43.:38:50.

Scottish Labour Party... It is now 100 years since the Scots socialist

:38:51.:38:55.

campaigner who became the UK's first Labour MP. This weekend, a Scottish

:38:56.:38:59.

Labour conference paid its respect from lines from some of its

:39:00.:39:04.

best-known speeches. Socialism implies the inherent equality of all

:39:05.:39:08.

human beings. The danger which comes from allowing men to grow rich and

:39:09.:39:12.

permitting them to use their wealth to corrupt the press, to silence the

:39:13.:39:18.

pulpit. I am an agitator. My work is consisted of trying to start up a

:39:19.:39:26.

divine discontent with wrong. While Labour is was happy to talk about

:39:27.:39:30.

the achievements of characters like Akira Hardy, the party also knows it

:39:31.:39:34.

has to look to the future and not simply dwell on the glory days of

:39:35.:39:38.

the past. The theme of this conference is about asking voters

:39:39.:39:41.

who were turned away from Scottish Labour to have a fresh look at the

:39:42.:39:46.

party. The problem is that the SNP is so massively popular right now

:39:47.:39:49.

that that's challenge may prove insurmountable. Cue the fresh talent

:39:50.:39:58.

to sort things out. Jeremy Corbyn is a left winger and as a socialist,

:39:59.:40:02.

the new Labour leader was keen to draw on the hardy ethos to take

:40:03.:40:08.

forward the Labour message. Our mission is the same as that which he

:40:09.:40:12.

laid out just 21 years into our party's life, when he said the

:40:13.:40:16.

movement would not rest until the sunshine of socialism and human

:40:17.:40:23.

freedom break forth upon our land. But is this the right message? One

:40:24.:40:27.

of Labour's big problems is the huge number of voters they have lost to

:40:28.:40:31.

the SNP as the Nationalists have positioned themselves as the real

:40:32.:40:36.

party of working people. Why are some determined to stick with

:40:37.:40:40.

Scottish Labour? I have never liked SNP, I don't think Scotland would be

:40:41.:40:47.

able to go on its own. I'd rather have the United Kingdom than on our

:40:48.:40:53.

own. Support the union, but I also supports devolution, as well. I

:40:54.:40:58.

think the Scottish parliament should have more power, but it can't be

:40:59.:41:07.

controlled by one party. Labour presents me better opportunities for

:41:08.:41:11.

myself going forwards and the country going forwards. With all the

:41:12.:41:14.

troubles we are facing, the SNP doesn't seem to have the best record

:41:15.:41:18.

at the moment on something. Getting voters back to Labour is the key

:41:19.:41:22.

challenge facing Scottish leader Kezia Dugdale. Her plan is to make

:41:23.:41:25.

the party distinctly different from the SNP, especially where it comes

:41:26.:41:32.

from new tax and wealth or power devolved to Holyrood. Before the UK

:41:33.:41:35.

elections, our opponents said there was no difference between Labour and

:41:36.:41:39.

Tories. I hope they can see that's difference now. A Labour government

:41:40.:41:49.

introduced tax credits, a Tory government will cut them. At the

:41:50.:41:53.

Scottish elections, if people ask what is the difference between a

:41:54.:41:56.

Scottish Labour government and an SNP government, this is the

:41:57.:42:01.

difference. A Scottish Labour government will restore the

:42:02.:42:05.

much-needed tax credits and SNP, left to their own devices, will

:42:06.:42:09.

leave those Tory cuts in place. As Labour draws a bit strategy for next

:42:10.:42:16.

year's Scottish election, could the words of Hardy hinder rather than

:42:17.:42:20.

help? You may have helped sow the seeds of labour, but it is one that

:42:21.:42:22.

is now past his prime? Joining us now from

:42:23.:42:23.

the conference is Ian Murray MP. He is Scotland's only remaining

:42:24.:42:36.

Labour MP. On this tax credits business, can we be clear what it is

:42:37.:42:39.

you are promising? Are you saying he will not implement any of the cuts

:42:40.:42:45.

in either working tax credits or child tax credits? This comes from

:42:46.:42:53.

the new powers in the Scotland Bill and the new powers allow the

:42:54.:42:56.

Scottish Parliament to top up any reserve benefits, so what would

:42:57.:43:01.

happen is we would take the losses that people have incurred through

:43:02.:43:04.

the reduction in tax credits. We're not sure of the quantum of that's

:43:05.:43:07.

because the House of Lords have forced the Chancellor this week to

:43:08.:43:12.

go and look at mitigation measures, but if we take where we are today,

:43:13.:43:16.

we would introduce a top up devolved power that would allow us to

:43:17.:43:20.

mitigate the effects of that tax could change. All of them? That was

:43:21.:43:26.

the bold thing that was announced by Kezia Dugdale yesterday. All of the

:43:27.:43:32.

cuts? That was the emitter and that has been made. We're looking at that

:43:33.:43:36.

and we have costed that I'm fully costed that on basis of the grid

:43:37.:43:41.

position today. Obviously, we don't know, and we hope the Chancellor

:43:42.:43:44.

will either scrap these changes or he will listen to the House of Lords

:43:45.:43:48.

and put in place the mitigation of facts so that the poorest are not

:43:49.:43:52.

white stuff. As we stand here today, before any of those mitigation

:43:53.:43:57.

measures are put in place, we would restore the losses of the tax

:43:58.:44:00.

credits to Scottish working families. If George Osborne goes

:44:01.:44:02.

back in his Autumn Statement and says, I am going to change tax

:44:03.:44:07.

thresholds, that will mitigate this, your policy would only be to use the

:44:08.:44:14.

powers of the Scottish Government to make up for the losses? It might be

:44:15.:44:20.

a lot less than it would be now. That is correct. The house of lords

:44:21.:44:25.

on Monday voted to send the Chancellor and the House of Commons

:44:26.:44:28.

a way to think again on these. It is said they would not approve the

:44:29.:44:32.

strategy instrument to make changes to the tax credit system, unless the

:44:33.:44:36.

Chancellor came back with mitigation measures for the poorest. This

:44:37.:44:39.

policy has been costed and looked at on the basis of where we stand

:44:40.:44:44.

today, but if the Chancellor goes back and our Shadow Chancellor has

:44:45.:44:47.

said, if he comes back and says he will either cancel these or fully

:44:48.:44:50.

mitigate the effects for the very poorest in society on the basis of

:44:51.:44:53.

the tax credits, we will support him on that and that is the right thing

:44:54.:44:58.

to do. If George Osborne does what Jeremy Corbyn and John -- John

:44:59.:45:05.

McConnell had fast integer, which is to make sure nobody misses out, the

:45:06.:45:11.

new policy disappears? We would be delighted if the Chancellor came

:45:12.:45:15.

back and didn't hit the quarter of a million families in Scotland with

:45:16.:45:18.

these working tax credit cuts. These are people who are in work,

:45:19.:45:22.

Conservative backbenchers are uncomfortable, the House of Lords

:45:23.:45:25.

spoke very loudly on Monday night to see it was unexpected bull. This --

:45:26.:45:31.

unacceptable. There are people in work, doing the right thing, doing

:45:32.:45:35.

everything that is asked of them. The previous Labour government

:45:36.:45:38.

brought these tax credits in to make sure that people were not in a

:45:39.:45:41.

benefit trap. People getting up, doing the right thing, preparing for

:45:42.:45:45.

the families unable to progress to the work system. He mitigates any of

:45:46.:45:49.

those troubles with regards to people not losing out, we will

:45:50.:45:52.

support him, and I think we would all rejoice in the fact that the

:45:53.:45:55.

poorest and most honourable in society are not paying for the backs

:45:56.:45:59.

of what happened in the economy eight years ago. You say this is

:46:00.:46:03.

fully costed by yourselves, what is your estimate of the cost of this?

:46:04.:46:11.

The estimated cost by 2021 is ?440 million per year as we sit here

:46:12.:46:18.

today. We have taken the figures from Scottish reports. They want to

:46:19.:46:22.

cut air passenger duty with new powers in the Scotland Bill and then

:46:23.:46:27.

ultimately scrap it. That is 250 million per year up until the end of

:46:28.:46:29.

this Parliament. We wouldn't implement, because we get in contact

:46:30.:46:35.

powers, the upper threshold for income tax rising from 43,000 up to

:46:36.:46:39.

50,000 that the Chancellor has already put in place. Those are

:46:40.:46:45.

already clear in the red book that accompanies the Budget. When John

:46:46.:46:50.

Swinney said to his party conference, that he couldn't stop

:46:51.:46:54.

the cuts in tax credits, and he said the full effects of Iain Duncan

:46:55.:46:59.

Smith's welfare reforms were about ?6 billion a year in Scotland, and

:47:00.:47:03.

that he couldn't stop that happening, are you disputing his

:47:04.:47:08.

figures? I would need to see where those figures have come from, but it

:47:09.:47:12.

is pretty clear that the red book which is produced by Her Majesty's

:47:13.:47:16.

Treasury and signed off by the Office for Budget Responsibility,

:47:17.:47:18.

which is independent from government, has said that this in

:47:19.:47:26.

Scotland would create ?440 million of people working on child tax

:47:27.:47:30.

credits. We would restore that ?440 million by a combination of not

:47:31.:47:33.

taking the air passenger duty cut and then taking -- not taking the

:47:34.:47:38.

threshold increase for the upper rate tax payers. Not a penny of

:47:39.:47:42.

additional tax should be paid by Scottish taxpayers with this

:47:43.:47:46.

proposal. Presumably you would: Scottish Government to implement

:47:47.:47:52.

this. I don't care who implements this. I don't care if the House of

:47:53.:47:56.

Lords after defeat the government, or if George Osborne says he is

:47:57.:47:59.

sorry and will reverse these. I don't care if he mitigates them or

:48:00.:48:02.

of the Scottish governments do it. What we are saying is if we are in

:48:03.:48:07.

government in May 2016, with the powers of the Scotland Bill

:48:08.:48:09.

transferred to the Scotland climate, the Labour Party, the

:48:10.:48:12.

Scottish Labour Party, will commit to reversing these tax credit cuts.

:48:13.:48:17.

If anybody else wants to do it, we will be delighted because this is

:48:18.:48:20.

about supporting working families and making sure they have an income

:48:21.:48:25.

that they can survive on. I don't really care who implements this

:48:26.:48:27.

policy, but this is a Scottish Labour policy. It is a radical

:48:28.:48:31.

policy from Kezia Dugdale and we will do it if no one else will. You

:48:32.:48:37.

said a moment while -- month ago that there wouldn't be any tax rises

:48:38.:48:39.

that there wouldn't be a plan to rise the test -- rise the threshold.

:48:40.:48:46.

People in Scotland he would have benefited will not benefit. They

:48:47.:48:50.

will end up playing ?1200 a year more than people in England. Are you

:48:51.:48:58.

happy to go to the better off amongst your constituents in

:48:59.:49:01.

Edinburgh and say, look, you won't get that advantage, in order to pay

:49:02.:49:07.

for not cutting the tax credits, some money of which may go to people

:49:08.:49:15.

who are not in jobs? Gordon, everyone, I think, across the

:49:16.:49:18.

country, including in Edinburgh, will realise these tax credit cuts

:49:19.:49:21.

are an abomination to Scotland and the wrong thing to do. The

:49:22.:49:25.

Chancellor has failed every single policy in terms of them trying to

:49:26.:49:29.

balance the books at government level. He has then decided he will

:49:30.:49:34.

take money out of the very poorest in society, who are in work. That is

:49:35.:49:38.

the main thing. These are working tax credits. That is the main point

:49:39.:49:42.

here. People are actually in work. People in my constituency will not

:49:43.:49:47.

pay a penny more in tax with regards to this. We will not implement the

:49:48.:49:52.

increase in the personal allowance of the 40p rate. People will be no

:49:53.:49:56.

worse off, they will pay not a penny more tax and we will use the money

:49:57.:50:01.

we receive from not increasing the threshold to make sure the poorest

:50:02.:50:04.

and most vulnerable in society, who are actually in work and not having

:50:05.:50:13.

these cuts imposed upon them at the working tracks level. That is the

:50:14.:50:16.

right thing to do. The vast majority of reasonable people think that is

:50:17.:50:20.

the right thing to do, as well. Your new proposals on autonomy, have you

:50:21.:50:26.

worked out how they're going to work yet? As an in Westminster, who do

:50:27.:50:32.

you now consider yourself accountable? Let's forget about

:50:33.:50:35.

Trident, because you have said repeatedly you will vote against it,

:50:36.:50:39.

no matter what the Scottish Westminster party tell you to do.

:50:40.:50:43.

If, in the future, for example there was a policy on tax credits which

:50:44.:50:47.

Jeremy Corbyn had a different view on it from the Scottish party, would

:50:48.:50:52.

you feel bound to vote in the House of Commons the way you are told by

:50:53.:50:56.

the government whips, sorry, by the Labour whips, or by the way you are

:50:57.:50:58.

told to by the Scottish Labour Party?

:50:59.:51:07.

A First in a UK Government whip. The letter of intent that was signed by

:51:08.:51:17.

Jeremy Corbyn and Kezia Dugdale on Monday makes it clear there would

:51:18.:51:21.

have to be a process but you would still have to take the UK Labour

:51:22.:51:26.

Party whip because you are at Westminster. There would be a

:51:27.:51:30.

process tween the National executive committee, the Scottish executive

:51:31.:51:35.

committee in between the UK and Labour parties. It states that

:51:36.:51:38.

clearly in the letter of intent. That clearly in the letter of

:51:39.:51:43.

intent. That's what we speak. It is clear that the moment it would have

:51:44.:51:49.

to be a process to allow Scottish Labour MPs to have that Scottish

:51:50.:51:53.

conflict resolution put into place. At the moment they would take the

:51:54.:52:01.

Labour Party whip. I have no idea. Unless the individual wanted to take

:52:02.:52:05.

the whip. I have no idea what you said means. It sounds like you would

:52:06.:52:09.

still be wept in the UK Labour whips up maybe not. Is that right? What I

:52:10.:52:18.

am saying is, the letter of intent that was signed by Kezia Dugdale and

:52:19.:52:22.

Jeremy Corbyn makes it has to be a process worked out for conflict

:52:23.:52:26.

resolution when the Scottish Labour Party has a different policy from

:52:27.:52:31.

the UK Labour Party and the intention is at the moment a

:52:32.:52:34.

Scottish Labour MP would still take the UK Labour whip but there has to

:52:35.:52:39.

be processed in terms of conflict resolution to resolve that. I know

:52:40.:52:43.

you said you do not want to talk about trade which surprises me given

:52:44.:52:46.

that is what we have spoken about over the last few months but that is

:52:47.:52:50.

a prime example where the Scottish Labour Party might take a different

:52:51.:52:56.

tack to the UK Labour Party. These decisions are taken all of the world

:52:57.:52:59.

when you have a tournament and federal party aching this something

:53:00.:53:05.

we have to work out, it is something -- nothing new here. I said about

:53:06.:53:11.

Trident you would vote in favour of which whip to vote about it. If the

:53:12.:53:18.

UK Labour Party changed their position on Trident and we are going

:53:19.:53:20.

through that debate in the Shadow Cabinet at the moment, Jeremy said

:53:21.:53:24.

he wants to have that debate, that may not be the case, the position

:53:25.:53:29.

may change on that. Individual issues are difficult to talk about

:53:30.:53:34.

hypothetical science but there will be processed place in the letter of

:53:35.:53:38.

intent that clear. Thank you for joining us. We will leave it there.

:53:39.:53:41.

The former First Minister Alex Salmond famously

:53:42.:53:43.

said that "the rocks would melt with the sun" before he allowed tuition

:53:44.:53:46.

Those words were later carved onto a commemorative stone.

:53:47.:53:49.

But Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson called on

:53:50.:53:51.

Nicola Sturgeon this week to "ditch the stone carvings" and instead

:53:52.:53:54.

focus on practical solutions for getting more students from deprived

:53:55.:53:56.

During First Minister's Questions, the Scottish Labour leader Kezia

:53:57.:54:00.

Dugdale accused Nicola Sturgeon of reneging on a promise to eliminate

:54:01.:54:04.

student debt, saying the SNP have instead created a "debt mountain"

:54:05.:54:06.

that stands at two point seven billion pounds.

:54:07.:54:08.

The value of student debt in Scotland is more than the combined

:54:09.:54:25.

cost of the new Forth road crossing and the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in

:54:26.:54:31.

Glasgow. In fact, the value of the accumulated debt of students in

:54:32.:54:35.

Scotland, it is now the government of's biggest single financial asset.

:54:36.:54:40.

The student debt monster the SNP once promised to dump is now a debt

:54:41.:54:46.

mountain. Did the First Minister ever have an intention of keeping

:54:47.:54:50.

that promise? Domiciled students and here I will talk about tuition fees,

:54:51.:54:57.

do not have to be fees of up to ?20,000 charge for tuition elsewhere

:54:58.:55:02.

in the UK. That is the real saving that does not become a debt in

:55:03.:55:06.

Scotland in the way it does in other parts of the UK. Currently at the

:55:07.:55:10.

least well-off students in England and Scotland took up the maximum

:55:11.:55:13.

amount of student loan available to them during the term of the degree

:55:14.:55:19.

of English students would accumulate debts of around ?12,000 more than

:55:20.:55:23.

Scottish students. The reality is that too it is easier to be poor and

:55:24.:55:28.

get to uni in England even under the Tories that it is in Scotland under

:55:29.:55:34.

the SNP. There has been a 50% increase since 2006 and applications

:55:35.:55:39.

to university from the 20% most deprived areas in our country. Young

:55:40.:55:44.

people are more likely to participate in higher education by

:55:45.:55:46.

the time they are more likely to participate in higher education by

:55:47.:55:54.

the time all graduates who their university education to playback a

:55:55.:55:56.

contribution once they got a decent job. That money could then be used

:55:57.:56:01.

to increase bursaries for good students who under the current

:56:02.:56:04.

scheme cannot get a foot through the door. This plan is sensible,

:56:05.:56:08.

moderate and would help those most in need. Can I ask what reason,

:56:09.:56:14.

other than an ideological one, with this First Minister have or not

:56:15.:56:20.

considering it? We have an honest disagreement. I believe in free

:56:21.:56:24.

education, I benefited from it as a young person and I believe I have no

:56:25.:56:29.

right to take it away from any other young person today. This SNP

:56:30.:56:33.

government has singularly failed to close the gap between rich and poor

:56:34.:56:38.

in access to university in more than eight years of office. Presiding

:56:39.:56:43.

Officer, we have a solution, and it works. All we ask is that the First

:56:44.:56:47.

Minister has the courage to ditch the stone carvings and the vanity

:56:48.:56:53.

projects and to move to practical solutions for our tourist students,

:56:54.:56:59.

will she? Ruth Davidson calls it ideological, I called principle, it

:57:00.:57:02.

will be for the people of Scotland to make up their minds.

:57:03.:57:06.

Well, the Education Secretary, Angela Constance is with me

:57:07.:57:08.

The National union of students who were very critical of the tuition

:57:09.:57:21.

fees have called on you to cut grant aid, will you do that? We will

:57:22.:57:26.

remain in close Ighalo with the National union of students, we have

:57:27.:57:30.

a good relationship with them. What about changing the policy? We have

:57:31.:57:38.

to remember that in 2012, can we do that again? I said 20,012. We are

:57:39.:57:50.

live! Of Newport. Forget me, I thought it was a pre-recorded. In

:57:51.:57:57.

2012 the NUS were supportive of the changes we made to the student

:57:58.:58:01.

support package which was all about increasing the overall level of

:58:02.:58:03.

support package which was all about support available to the tourist

:58:04.:58:09.

students and our focus was... I know you said that the figures that

:58:10.:58:13.

you're on student awards agency Scotland produced this week show

:58:14.:58:17.

that nonrepayable grants, let's leave loans to one side, they have

:58:18.:58:25.

gone down by 20% since 2006. The total paid out in nonrepayable

:58:26.:58:31.

grants has gone down by 36% and the number of students supported as gone

:58:32.:58:36.

down by 11%. Given your policy is to try to get more students from lower

:58:37.:58:40.

backgrounds into higher education how can it possibly help to cut

:58:41.:58:45.

grants like that? We are getting more students from poor backgrounds

:58:46.:58:49.

into higher education. We want to increase the pace and pick up the

:58:50.:58:53.

pace. How does cutting the grants help that? What I was trying to

:58:54.:58:59.

explain earlier was that in 2012 we, in an effort to increase more

:59:00.:59:07.

money going into the pocket of the Buddhas of students, we increased

:59:08.:59:10.

the overall amount of money available to our tourist students

:59:11.:59:15.

and in 2011 we were re-elected... When you say overall amount of money

:59:16.:59:22.

you mean debt? So now poor students are increasingly borrowing more

:59:23.:59:25.

money than richer students to go through university in Scotland

:59:26.:59:29.

because you have cut the grants? We can look at the detail of those

:59:30.:59:33.

beggars. Scottish students have cut the grants? We can look at the

:59:34.:59:35.

detail of those beggars. Scottish students at the lowest to the poor

:59:36.:59:42.

students in England, the coolest students in England still accumulate

:59:43.:59:53.

more student debt. -- Forest. -- Cannes. We changed from bursaries to

:59:54.:00:03.

loans which was a effort to increase the money in the pockets of the

:00:04.:00:10.

poorest students. That was welcomed by the NUS at the time. You say you

:00:11.:00:16.

can put the situation with down south. Figures from UCAS show that

:00:17.:00:26.

while the number of students from lower backgrounds are increasing in

:00:27.:00:30.

Scotland it is increasing at a higher level and increasing faster

:00:31.:00:34.

in England. If your policies are so brilliant wires that the case? We

:00:35.:00:41.

inherited a greater problem from our predecessors but it is important to

:00:42.:00:44.

recognise we are closing the gap by a faster rate. According to UCAS

:00:45.:00:50.

figures we are closing the gap at a faster rate than our counterparts in

:00:51.:00:55.

England. That is just not true. It is not what UCAS says. If you look

:00:56.:01:01.

at the UK entry level the number of students from disadvantaged

:01:02.:01:07.

backgrounds we are closing the gap at a faster rate than our English

:01:08.:01:11.

counterparts. We would fully recognise we want to pick up the

:01:12.:01:16.

pace and in the years that I have been Education Secretary we have

:01:17.:01:19.

increased bursaries provision to the Buddhist students. We have increased

:01:20.:01:25.

income thresholds and improve the wider access commission. It is an

:01:26.:01:28.

interim report that will be available in the next few weeks

:01:29.:01:33.

because that agenda is broader than just student support. It is used

:01:34.:01:37.

throughout our education system. Let's not take the UCAS figures. The

:01:38.:01:45.

Scottish funding level, it says figures are not compatible, between

:01:46.:01:49.

Scotland and England, it does some work of its own and said 9.2% of

:01:50.:01:56.

graduate students came from the most deprived areas in 2007 when your

:01:57.:02:01.

government came to power. If 2013 that had gone up to 10.4%, so hardly

:02:02.:02:10.

moved, why is that? What we know about 18-year-old is from the most

:02:11.:02:15.

disadvantaged communities going to university has increased by 50%.

:02:16.:02:21.

What proportion of those, as you want to talk about these figures,

:02:22.:02:24.

what proportion of these 18-year-olds go to higher education

:02:25.:02:30.

in Scotland? Is a 50% increase. What is the proportion? In terms of young

:02:31.:02:36.

people... What proportion of those people you have just measured go

:02:37.:02:42.

into further education in Scotland and what proportion in England? In

:02:43.:02:49.

terms of young people from the 20% most disadvantaged communities, 15%

:02:50.:02:54.

of those are denied education. And how many in England? Excuse me. With

:02:55.:03:00.

the UCAS figures are important in terms of the detail, the UCAS

:03:01.:03:07.

figures include young people who are in higher education there the

:03:08.:03:11.

college sector but do not include those figures. What the with

:03:12.:03:17.

England? I will tell you what is important in Scotland. No one is

:03:18.:03:27.

disputing we have more work to do in access. So you do not dispute more

:03:28.:03:33.

people in England end up in higher education than in Scotland, you do

:03:34.:03:38.

not dispute that? What I am not disputing is that we have indeed

:03:39.:03:41.

made good progress under this government. Why can't you just give

:03:42.:03:47.

a straight answer to my question? That is not a good argument for

:03:48.:03:53.

removing free tuition. I am just asking you to agree with me that

:03:54.:03:58.

more people from Lincoln families end up in higher education in

:03:59.:04:01.

England at the proportion than in Scotland. -- low income families.

:04:02.:04:08.

You are comparing the figures in Scotland. You were including them

:04:09.:04:13.

yourself just a minute ago. We can compare things when you like the

:04:14.:04:16.

comparison but not when you do not like the comparison? UCAS figures by

:04:17.:04:23.

their own admission do not include the proportion of young people who

:04:24.:04:27.

enter higher education in Scotland there are further education but they

:04:28.:04:33.

do in England. In Scotland 17% of higher education is provided in

:04:34.:04:38.

college. How does that compare with England? In England the proportion

:04:39.:04:44.

is five or 6%. Where do we get the figures your government has prepared

:04:45.:04:49.

to show the incompatibility? Will you produce figures making the

:04:50.:04:51.

comparison yourself? They don't take into account the

:04:52.:05:00.

proportion of young people in Scotland that go into higher

:05:01.:05:05.

education... We can argue about figures for years. The bottom line

:05:06.:05:08.

is, I don't think you would dispute, let's put it simply, that there is

:05:09.:05:12.

no greater progress, particularly in Scotland than getting low income

:05:13.:05:16.

students into higher education. We're closing the gap quicker. Work

:05:17.:05:23.

any pointers the data that shows tuition fees policy has any effect

:05:24.:05:29.

on it benefits students of all backgrounds. That was the manifesto

:05:30.:05:34.

pledge we made in 2011. Nicola Sturgeon wants her premiership to be

:05:35.:05:38.

judged on getting more people into university from low-income

:05:39.:05:42.

backgrounds. We have also delivered on a manifesto pledge to introduce a

:05:43.:05:46.

minimum income guarantee which was supported by the National Union of

:05:47.:05:51.

Students. And we are succeeding in getting... We are succeeding in

:05:52.:05:57.

getting more disadvantaged Scots into higher education, but we have

:05:58.:06:02.

more work to do. We want to pick up the pace, that is why we have

:06:03.:06:05.

introduced the access commission. That is why I have introduced

:06:06.:06:10.

improvements to the current student living costs package. It is why we

:06:11.:06:14.

are doing radical work in early years, why we are trying to close

:06:15.:06:18.

the gap in primary school and why we are ensuring more people in

:06:19.:06:22.

secondary school have more choices and chances. Thank you very much

:06:23.:06:23.

indeed. It's time to have a look

:06:24.:06:24.

at what's been happening this week I'm joined from Perth by the former

:06:25.:06:27.

Labour MSP Pauline McNeill and Neill -- let's talk about the Labour

:06:28.:06:49.

Party conference, as you are there. You seem quite impressed by Kezia

:06:50.:06:57.

Dugdale's speech. It was a very good speech. I think it was a far better

:06:58.:07:01.

speech than anyone had the right to expect. Sometimes, it is more like a

:07:02.:07:08.

casual Ward -- casualty ward teleconference, giving the enormous

:07:09.:07:11.

defeat Labour suffered at the general election. She delivered a

:07:12.:07:15.

speech which had a lot of content in it and clearly located the party to

:07:16.:07:19.

the left of the SNP. Particularly on this issue of tax credits, saying

:07:20.:07:24.

they would use their tax raising powers of the Scottish parliament

:07:25.:07:27.

for the first time since 1999, use the tax-raising powers to reverse

:07:28.:07:34.

the Tory cuts in tax credits to low-income families. It was very

:07:35.:07:39.

significant and the Labour Party has turned a corner here in Perth. Just

:07:40.:07:42.

now, we were listening to an extraordinary debate on Trident,

:07:43.:07:47.

something we haven't heard at the UK Labour Party, is, because they

:07:48.:07:50.

bottled it in Brighton last month, and it has been a very good debate.

:07:51.:07:55.

The old divisions are not causing the kind of problems they may have

:07:56.:07:59.

had in the 1980s. This is much more intelligent form of debate and

:08:00.:08:07.

disagreement. Pauline, do you think Kezia Dugdale... You have some

:08:08.:08:12.

experience, presumably personally, in trying to fight off an SNP who

:08:13.:08:16.

claimed they are to the left of the Labour Party nowadays. Do you think

:08:17.:08:20.

Kezia Dugdale has carved out a new niche? I think she has certainly

:08:21.:08:27.

laid down a challenge for the SNP, because I think she has framed a

:08:28.:08:30.

debate for the first time that a Labour leader has done in Labour

:08:31.:08:33.

turns. The first half of her speech was a positive speech, talking about

:08:34.:08:39.

what she would do. She has also demonstrated on that particular

:08:40.:08:44.

policy, which is that in power, Labour would restore tax credits,

:08:45.:08:47.

that they would not reduce air passenger duty to do that. She has

:08:48.:08:51.

also demonstrated that there are sometimes hard choices that have to

:08:52.:08:54.

be made and I think that has thrown down a challenge to the SNP, but I

:08:55.:08:59.

don't think we have responded to that policy yet, to be in

:09:00.:09:04.

government, if you are going to be progressive, and your policies are

:09:05.:09:07.

about achieving things for working class children, they are going to be

:09:08.:09:11.

hard choices to make, there are going to have to be other policies,

:09:12.:09:17.

a passenger duty. I think what she got in the hall was a great sense of

:09:18.:09:23.

relief and she got constant applause, which I've never really

:09:24.:09:27.

seen for many years for a Labour leader, the thing that is a sense of

:09:28.:09:31.

will that exists in the Labour Party. I think people are realistic,

:09:32.:09:36.

they know that we have turned a corner here, or it is our last

:09:37.:09:42.

chance. All very upbeat. After that bit of a boost, what is your general

:09:43.:09:47.

assessment of the mood of the conference? One obvious criticism of

:09:48.:09:52.

what Kezia Dugdale said yesterday it was, it is just going to attract a

:09:53.:09:58.

core vote of what people used to vote Labour, not necessarily a

:09:59.:10:02.

party, it might be, but not necessarily a policy that will make

:10:03.:10:05.

the Scottish middle classes very happy. This clearly is the issue,

:10:06.:10:13.

because she said that if you are going to have left-wing policies,

:10:14.:10:16.

this was her main criticism of the SNP, if you have left wing policies,

:10:17.:10:19.

you have to find the means of paying for them and somebody has to pay for

:10:20.:10:24.

them. That is going to mean people will have to pay more tax in

:10:25.:10:30.

Scotland. Inevitably, it will be the middle classes or those who believe

:10:31.:10:33.

themselves to be middle earners who will have to pay rather more in tax.

:10:34.:10:40.

She is not proposing to actually increase the rates of taxation. What

:10:41.:10:43.

she is saying is that they will not increase the threshold is -- the

:10:44.:10:52.

threshold for higher rate tax. The will be a marginal increase in

:10:53.:10:56.

taxation for people earning between 40 and ?50,000. Whether they notice

:10:57.:11:02.

is another issue. It may well be that many of these people in

:11:03.:11:06.

Scotland, who have been voting for left-wing parties like the SNP and

:11:07.:11:10.

Labour, consistently over the last 50 years, they may be prepared to

:11:11.:11:17.

accept a modest hit on their earnings and also accept things like

:11:18.:11:23.

not cutting air passenger duty. If it means you can avoid having these

:11:24.:11:27.

tax credit cuts hitting very low income families in Scotland. We

:11:28.:11:31.

don't necessarily know this will be a vote loser. The assumption

:11:32.:11:34.

generally along the political classes is that any discussion in

:11:35.:11:41.

changes in tax will inevitably be suicide at the polling booths.

:11:42.:11:45.

Scotland has a different political culture from south of the border. It

:11:46.:11:49.

is not as toxic and issue as it is in the south. Pauline, we have just

:11:50.:11:54.

been hearing about some of the details of theirs and I suppose the

:11:55.:11:58.

problem for you... You would say you would be delighted if George Osborne

:11:59.:12:01.

scrapped his plans to cut tax credits, but what Ian was saying is

:12:02.:12:07.

that if he mitigated, it won't cost us much. In an ideal world, from

:12:08.:12:12.

your point of view, George Osborne would make sure that the people

:12:13.:12:18.

don't lose any money from the cuts in tax credits. The trouble for you

:12:19.:12:22.

is a new flagship policy then evaporates. Well, that remains to be

:12:23.:12:31.

seen. I think that the policy commitment here, apart from anything

:12:32.:12:37.

else, Kezia Dugdale had to nail the question which is, what is the

:12:38.:12:42.

purpose of labour and what does Labour stand for? Right here and

:12:43.:12:46.

now, where we face the prospect of a reduction of tax credits for working

:12:47.:12:52.

class families, and let's not forget it was the heart of the UK Labour

:12:53.:12:58.

government's progress in government. She has to say what she

:12:59.:13:01.

would be prepared to do. I think that is what most people will take

:13:02.:13:07.

out of her conference speech. I think the issue is obviously the

:13:08.:13:11.

test for Scottish Labour and for UK Labour, how they respond to what

:13:12.:13:14.

ever George Osborne is going to come up with. Labour has to be clear in

:13:15.:13:18.

Scotland if faced with a reduction for working families of over 300,000

:13:19.:13:25.

families, who stands to lose out of this, that we have two nail our

:13:26.:13:28.

colours to the mast and I think that is the tone of it. There are risks

:13:29.:13:33.

involved, yes, but clearly identifying what Labour stands for

:13:34.:13:38.

is very crucial at this stage. I am sorry to cut in, we have to leave it

:13:39.:13:41.

there. We are completely out of time. Sorry about that.

:13:42.:13:43.

Sunday Politics is back next week at the slightly later time

:13:44.:13:48.

What the actual... Who do you think you are?!

:13:49.:14:14.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With shadow home office minister Keir Starmer on the forthcoming Investigatory Powers Bill, Conservative MP David Davis on Europe and fellow Tory MP Philip Davies explaining why Parliament should debate men's rights.

Panellists are Janan Ganesh, Polly Toynbee and Nick Watt.


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