08/11/2015 Sunday Politics Scotland


08/11/2015

With Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer. Guests include Heidi Alexander MP and Johnny Mercer MP. On the political panel are Janan Ganesh, Polly Toynbee and Nick Watt.


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As evidence grows that the Russian passenger jet downed over

:00:34.:00:39.

Egypt's Sinai desert last weekend was the target of

:00:40.:00:43.

a terrorist attack, we look at how Moscow and the West will respond.

:00:44.:00:47.

We'll have the latest from Egypt and Russia, and ask are we now

:00:48.:00:51.

on the brink of an even more dangerous phase of Islamist

:00:52.:00:54.

David Cameron says he's ready to lead Britain out of the EU

:00:55.:01:01.

if he doesn't get what he wants from renegotiation,

:01:02.:01:04.

Will his list of demands result in a good deal or turn out to be

:01:05.:01:09.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland, The Scotland Bill is due to finish

:01:10.:01:17.

We'll be asking the Finance Secretary John Swinney.

:01:18.:01:27.

Speed and as a nation embarked on a Remembrance Sunday, we look at the

:01:28.:01:33.

support of legends receive once they leave the Armed Forces.

:01:34.:01:46.

the most anticipated TV event since the John Lewis Christmas advert!

:01:47.:01:49.

It's Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.

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We're not sure if they'll make you start thinking

:01:52.:01:54.

But they may well bring a tear to your eye.

:01:55.:01:59.

So, this week, we'll see what many eurosceptics and europhiles have

:02:00.:02:02.

been waiting for with all the excitement of a child thinking about

:02:03.:02:04.

their Christmas wish list, even though it's only early November.

:02:05.:02:08.

David Cameron will publish his letter to the President of the

:02:09.:02:12.

European Council setting out the "broad outlines" of what he wants

:02:13.:02:14.

to achieve from his renegotiation of Britain's EU membership.

:02:15.:02:17.

The upfront briefing from Ten Downing Street says that

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he'll challenge both the in and out campaigns to be more

:02:22.:02:24.

But, to assuage the eurosceptic majority in his party he'll use his

:02:25.:02:29.

strongest language yet to say that if he doesn't get what he wants,

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Whether they believe him is another matter.

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This is what Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has to say this

:02:39.:02:41.

The British people will not be fobbed off with a set of cosmetic

:02:42.:02:46.

This is about fundamental change in the direction of travel in the

:02:47.:02:50.

European Union, to make sure that it works for Britain, and that it is

:02:51.:02:55.

an effective organisation for all the citizens of Europe, driving our

:02:56.:02:59.

prosperity and competitiveness in the 21st century.

:03:00.:03:03.

If we cannot do that, then we will not be able to win a referendum.

:03:04.:03:11.

That was the Foreign Secretary. Janan Ganesh, is anything happening?

:03:12.:03:17.

There is a problem the David Cameron, the things he is most

:03:18.:03:21.

likely to get from his renegotiation are not the things that will move

:03:22.:03:24.

the average voter, so what he is likely to get our protections for

:03:25.:03:28.

non-euro countries within the EU, and that will be very technical

:03:29.:03:31.

institutional stuff, double majority voting and so forth. That is doable,

:03:32.:03:38.

the Germans don't want a fragmented EU in terms of the currency. Does

:03:39.:03:42.

your average undecided voter decide on the basis of that? I think they

:03:43.:03:47.

are more moved by free movement and immigration, maybe even economic

:03:48.:03:50.

regulation, so the things he is most likely to get may not help him in a

:03:51.:03:55.

year or 18 months' time when he is campaigning to win a referendum. You

:03:56.:03:59.

get the feeling he has delayed telling us what he is really looking

:04:00.:04:01.

for because he is bound to disappoint. Indeed, and he has to be

:04:02.:04:07.

very careful to ask for things he can get. Three of the main things he

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can get, but I don't think he will get the four years' delay for in

:04:13.:04:16.

work benefits, it is discriminatory and goes against the basic

:04:17.:04:20.

principles and yet he is asking again. We can only hope he has had a

:04:21.:04:24.

nod and a wink from 27 other countries that they will agree to

:04:25.:04:27.

that because if he fails to get it, it will agree to that because if he

:04:28.:04:33.

fails to get it, it'll renegotiation and it is a good package, so we will

:04:34.:04:40.

hope it is not a cavalier piece of speaking. What is your take? Philip

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Hammond did say some of the changes would be introduced through domestic

:04:47.:04:48.

legislation would be introduced through domestic

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codify some recent would be introduced through domestic

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judgments that have gone in favour of the UK and not embedded in treaty

:05:00.:05:04.

change, but the hard language about treaty change, the reason they are

:05:05.:05:05.

standing soaked up, is George treaty change, the reason they are

:05:06.:05:12.

he is going to get a treaty treaty change, the reason they are

:05:13.:05:17.

outs and Britain will get an opt out from an ever closer union. George

:05:18.:05:22.

Osborne's the is that the protection for the Euro outs is the most

:05:23.:05:25.

important thing he can get the benefit of Britain but he knows

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politically the campaign, the most important thing he has to get those

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migrant benefit restrictions. We will see what he says on Tuesday,

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that is when the speech is being made.

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A senior US government official is quoted today by CNN saying they are

:05:36.:05:39.

"99.9% certain" that the 224 passengers aboard the Russian jet

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which crashed into the Sinai Desert last Saturday were the victims

:05:42.:05:44.

That's the view in London as well as Washington and now,

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draws up plans to repatriate 80,000 of its holidaymakers from various

:05:51.:06:03.

locations in Egypt, after it suspended all flights there,

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following in the wake of Britain's decision to suspend flights from

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The downing of the flight is a tragedy for those who lost

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than al-Qaeda, as a terrorist group capable of hitting targets far from

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In a moment, we will speak to Steve Rosenberg in St Petersburg. First,

:06:32.:06:49.

we are Rosenberg in St Petersburg. First,

:06:50.:06:58.

now? The British were the first to stop flights, the Americans followed

:06:59.:07:00.

another flights to Egypt except to get

:07:01.:07:07.

people out, is it beginning to trouble the Cairo Government? The

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Egyptian Government seems to be in a very tight situation, from an

:07:11.:07:14.

economic perspective. very tight situation, from an

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very important to the economy, it is a lifeline to the Egyptian economy,

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which is already in a bad shape and the tourism industry depends mainly

:07:24.:07:26.

on Russia and Britain, so the fact that no more to wrists, from Russia

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or Britain, will be coming to Egypt is a huge blow to tourism here and

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Egypt needs foreign currency and it depends on tourist spot that mainly,

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so it is a major blow to the industry and put the Government in a

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tight situation. On the other hand, the way the Egyptians have handled

:07:46.:07:49.

security in Sharm el-Sheikh airport was a matter of great concern and

:07:50.:07:53.

criticism from different countries around the world, even the tourists

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I have spoken to, they told us when they first arrived, the security

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measures were a mess, so now the measures have been tightened, some

:08:03.:08:05.

to wrists I spoke to yesterday told me it makes them feel better -- some

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to tourist. If the President Sese Government is feeling beleaguered in

:08:18.:08:22.

Cairo and will take another economic hit because of the tourism, can we

:08:23.:08:28.

expect further crackdown on the Sinai province terrorist groups? It

:08:29.:08:34.

is hard to tell at the moment, but the Sinai military operation has

:08:35.:08:38.

been going on for nearly two years now and every now and then, we hear

:08:39.:08:45.

about major attacks carried by mainly the IS affiliated group

:08:46.:08:51.

called the Sinai province, so the fact that the group have operated in

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Sinai the nearly two years, it seems the insurgency group is still

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gaining momentum and if it happens to be true they managed to smuggle a

:09:00.:09:03.

bomb on board the plane, it is a major blow to the security

:09:04.:09:08.

operators. Sally Nabil, thank you. Let's go to St Petersburg, we are

:09:09.:09:13.

joined by Steve Rosenberg. Is there any indication yet of how, assuming

:09:14.:09:17.

that it is shown to be a terrorist attack, any indication of how

:09:18.:09:23.

Vladimir Putin is going to respond? No, not yet. I think it is important

:09:24.:09:28.

to remember that despite the growing suspicion that this was a bomb, the

:09:29.:09:33.

official Kremlin line still is that it is keeping an open mind about

:09:34.:09:38.

this disaster, it is treating all theories equally and the Kremlin

:09:39.:09:43.

says the fact that it has suspended all flights to Egypt does not mean

:09:44.:09:48.

it favours the terror theory over any other. Having said that, if it

:09:49.:09:53.

is proven to be a bomb, then judging by the way President Putin has

:09:54.:09:57.

responded in the past to terror attacks, I think we can expect a

:09:58.:10:03.

forceful response from him. How is the domestic politics? I know it is

:10:04.:10:06.

hard to tell, because the media is so controlled by the Kremlin, but is

:10:07.:10:11.

this an opportunity for Mr Putin to further strengthen his position with

:10:12.:10:16.

a tougher crackdown, or is there their fear in the Kremlin that

:10:17.:10:20.

having casualties as a result of his war on terror will not make him very

:10:21.:10:25.

popular? It is an interesting question. I remember back in 2004,

:10:26.:10:30.

when there was a string of terror attacks on Russian soil, there were

:10:31.:10:34.

bombs in the Moscow Metro, two planes bombed out of the sky and the

:10:35.:10:43.

year ended with the school siege in Beslan, where 330 people were

:10:44.:10:47.

killed. None of that seemed to dent Vladimir Putin's popularity. Quite

:10:48.:10:50.

the opposite, he used it to strengthen the power of the Kremlin.

:10:51.:10:56.

Now, you could argue that if this doesn't prove to have been a bomb,

:10:57.:11:00.

that could undermine the narrative that the Kremlin has been pushing

:11:01.:11:03.

domestically about its military operation in Syria. In other words,

:11:04.:11:08.

Russia has been saying it has been carrying out air strikes in Syria to

:11:09.:11:15.

boost national security in Russia, to destroy terrorists so they

:11:16.:11:18.

couldn't come to Russia and kill people there, that narrative will be

:11:19.:11:22.

seriously undermined. But whether Russians would connect the dots and

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say, President Putin said we would be safer but we clearly are not, I

:11:27.:11:30.

don't think that would happen, because the Kremlin control so

:11:31.:11:34.

tightly the media here, particularly television, and television is the

:11:35.:11:39.

key to influencing public opinion. So if the Kremlin was to change the

:11:40.:11:43.

narrative to something more like we have been attacked, we are the

:11:44.:11:46.

victims of terror, we need to carry on our battle against international

:11:47.:11:50.

terrorism, I think the Russian public would support that and from

:11:51.:11:53.

the people I have spoken to on the streets of St Petersburg this

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morning, I haven't heard a word of criticism of Vladimir Putin. Most

:11:59.:12:01.

people have said to me, I understand Russia is at threat of terror

:12:02.:12:05.

attacks and they don't seem to connect what may have happened to

:12:06.:12:08.

the Russian air bus with Russia's military operation in Syria. Steve

:12:09.:12:12.

Rosenberg in St Petersburg. We're joined now by the foreign

:12:13.:12:16.

affairs analyst Tim Marshall, Dr Domitilla Sagramoso,

:12:17.:12:18.

an expert in Russian security And joining us from our Plymouth

:12:19.:12:20.

studio is the He sits on the

:12:21.:12:23.

Commons Defence Committee, and is Tim Marshall, if, as the

:12:24.:12:36.

intelligence suggests, this attack was coordinated with Islamic State

:12:37.:12:41.

leaders in Iraq, and its affiliates in the Sinai called soon I

:12:42.:12:46.

province, it means Islamic State has the capability to plot mass casualty

:12:47.:12:52.

attacks outside of Syria and Iraq -- called Sinai province. I think in

:12:53.:12:55.

the future, they will be able to do it globally and this is the first

:12:56.:12:58.

sign of them doing it outside of the countries they operate in. The head

:12:59.:13:05.

of the FSB came back the lead met Putin on Friday and Putin

:13:06.:13:07.

immediately set ground the planes, Putin on Friday and Putin

:13:08.:13:11.

that shows us what they truly believe. Britain is third, it is

:13:12.:13:16.

that shows us what they truly Russia and Germany and France in the

:13:17.:13:29.

amount of tourists there. President Sisi has been to Moscow three times

:13:30.:13:32.

since he was elected. He is trying to pull Russia back from America. So

:13:33.:13:37.

it is difficult for the Egyptians and Russians to come back out to

:13:38.:13:42.

openly unsaved. So to come back to your original point, I think it is

:13:43.:13:45.

pretty clear that the Isis affiliate in Sinai swore allegiance to Isis in

:13:46.:13:52.

Iraq. They are under a lot of pressure from the Russians, 20% of

:13:53.:13:58.

the bombing was against Syria. They have told their affiliate in the

:13:59.:14:02.

Sinai, you are the ones who can do it from you do the operation, they

:14:03.:14:05.

have killed the Russians and the Russians have to respond, I agree

:14:06.:14:06.

with what the Moscow correspondent Russians have to respond, I agree

:14:07.:14:13.

said, Putin does not respond -- not not respond, Putin responds and

:14:14.:14:20.

response with violence. Johnny Mercer, if

:14:21.:14:22.

response with violence. Johnny true and it was a planned attack by

:14:23.:14:26.

Islamic State, it takes IS into what is called full spectrum terrorist

:14:27.:14:31.

activity and it is better financed than Al-Qaeda, it is better

:14:32.:14:37.

resourced and organised in Syria and Iraq and Osama Bin Laden ever was

:14:38.:14:42.

sitting in a cave in Afghanistan, this takes the global war on

:14:43.:14:44.

terrorism to a whole new level. This threat is existential. You can

:14:45.:14:55.

see, if this is proved to be something that has originated from

:14:56.:15:00.

so-called Islamic State, you can see their strategic region. This is why

:15:01.:15:05.

the Prime Minister has been going on about this for so long. We have to

:15:06.:15:09.

the Prime Minister has been going on State because the threat will only

:15:10.:15:11.

get closer. We see State because the threat will only

:15:12.:15:15.

outpouring of humanity with that little boy washed up on a beach. We

:15:16.:15:19.

outpouring of humanity with that have had 30 of our own terrorists

:15:20.:15:24.

massacred in Tunisia. I understand. Is the British

:15:25.:15:28.

response which the Prime Minister has not managed to get Pollard to

:15:29.:15:31.

agree to on has not managed to get Pollard to

:15:32.:15:34.

jets into Syria, is that really has not managed to get Pollard to

:15:35.:15:35.

adequate given what you have called has not managed to get Pollard to

:15:36.:15:40.

We need to do what we are question of how much manpower or

:15:41.:15:48.

machinery we are sending but the effect we can achieve on the ground.

:15:49.:15:51.

machinery we are sending but the We have been asked to provide those

:15:52.:15:52.

Tornado jets because they have a specific tactical and technical

:15:53.:15:57.

capability to the coalition are asked when it comes to dynamic

:15:58.:16:00.

targeting within Syria. We asked when it comes to dynamic

:16:01.:16:04.

stand up to that and do our duty, and have the stomach for the fight.

:16:05.:16:08.

The idea we are asking people to do some mass bombing in Syria with no

:16:09.:16:12.

strategy, some mass bombing in Syria with no

:16:13.:16:14.

We should have got past this by now. some mass bombing in Syria with no

:16:15.:16:23.

Mr Putin? To a certain extent, this has

:16:24.:16:26.

Mr Putin? brought the ball back to Russia. I

:16:27.:16:30.

would disagree with what the correspondent was saying, that the

:16:31.:16:35.

Russians will not be particularly affected and critical of Mr Putin's

:16:36.:16:40.

paper in the Middle East. On the one hand they understand, that is their

:16:41.:16:44.

argument that the President Assad regime needed to be faced for stock

:16:45.:16:54.

because it had fallen, then jihadists groups in Damascus and

:16:55.:16:59.

western parts of the country weather and they understand that.

:17:00.:17:03.

On the other hand, they will put brakes to any attempt to send ground

:17:04.:17:08.

troops which I think they are not planning to do either. I imagine he

:17:09.:17:15.

will have another response to the bombing.

:17:16.:17:19.

He hasn't done much, Tim Marshall. He has been bombing the other groups

:17:20.:17:23.

against President Assad. He may now extend the bombing to

:17:24.:17:25.

Islamic State. If you look at the pattern of

:17:26.:17:30.

bombing, 80% against the Free Syrian Army, it's changed on Thursday.

:17:31.:17:36.

There was an increase on bombing on Isis targets and I think you'll see

:17:37.:17:40.

more of that in coming days. There is no way the Russians will react.

:17:41.:17:46.

The Russian public, if you look at 9/11 and the reaction of the

:17:47.:17:49.

American public, lots of things have happened to lots of countries, the

:17:50.:17:53.

immediate reaction in the first weeks and months is not, our foreign

:17:54.:17:58.

policy is wrong, but revenge. The most potent of many of the human

:17:59.:18:02.

emotions. I am certain in the short term the Russian public will support

:18:03.:18:07.

more action. Your original point, Isis is in Libya, Syria,

:18:08.:18:17.

Afghanistan, Iraq, India, growing very slowly in many other countries,

:18:18.:18:22.

and it has become the poster boy for jihadists. It has replaced Al-Qaeda

:18:23.:18:27.

and with that comes money and people prepared to kill themselves.

:18:28.:18:31.

Johnny Mercer, the head of MI5 says the threat of terrorism to the UK is

:18:32.:18:35.

the highest he has seen, that was before the jet went down over the

:18:36.:18:41.

Sinai desert. We now know, we have had it independently corroborated,

:18:42.:18:45.

that I S has been using mustard gas on civilians in Aleppo, not because

:18:46.:18:51.

it is a very use to them, but as a sign, we have got it, a sign to the

:18:52.:18:54.

West. Is that a response series SATs is

:18:55.:19:00.

there a response seriously adequate to this?

:19:01.:19:04.

Until now, we have not been militarily involved as much as we

:19:05.:19:07.

should have. We are in a difficult place here, we are learning all

:19:08.:19:12.

still healing from the mistakes in the last 15 years in terms of

:19:13.:19:16.

foreign policy engagement. That can't mean we draw up the

:19:17.:19:20.

drawbridge and think the way to keep safe at home and keep our way of

:19:21.:19:25.

life is to have no strategic involvement overseas.

:19:26.:19:29.

If it is proved this is done by so-called Islamic State, it

:19:30.:19:33.

demonstrates their strategic reach and reinforces that argument that we

:19:34.:19:36.

have to do something about this threat. It is only going to come

:19:37.:19:40.

closer and it is not good enough for it to come closer, the something to

:19:41.:19:44.

happen, and afterward for us to say, we should have done this and that.

:19:45.:19:51.

We need an intelligent foreign policy such intervention strategy,

:19:52.:19:54.

this is what the banister is trying to do and we should support him.

:19:55.:20:00.

He referred to help Afghanistan and Iraq hang over this country's

:20:01.:20:04.

foreign policy and military responses. Does Afghanistan, from

:20:05.:20:10.

the Soviet era, does that hang over, is it a restraint on what the

:20:11.:20:13.

Kremlin might do today? Totally, they are aware of the risks

:20:14.:20:17.

that occurred when they intervened and the deaths and casualties in

:20:18.:20:23.

Afghanistan. One of the reasons why the Civic union became so weak and

:20:24.:20:26.

eventually led to its disintegration. There is only one

:20:27.:20:34.

other point I would like to make which people in Russia are now

:20:35.:20:39.

talking about, experts, is the fact that to a certain extent this attack

:20:40.:20:44.

was also very much targeted against Egypt. I think a lot of the focus

:20:45.:20:49.

has been on Russia. For me, it was always not very clear white Isis in

:20:50.:20:54.

Egypt in the Sinai desert was going to attack if Russian plane, and why

:20:55.:20:59.

not the people who were under the bombs?

:21:00.:21:01.

It seems very much that we should not forget the dimension that to a

:21:02.:21:04.

certain extent the Russians might The rebels will vote down so they

:21:05.:22:34.

can't go. Because of Iraq, we are not going to go without

:22:35.:22:39.

Parliamentary riddled. On the world spectrum, the 1 country that has

:22:40.:22:42.

pushed harder than any other in the Western sense is the French, who are

:22:43.:22:47.

putting the aircraft carrier back into the Gulf. It was therefore to

:22:48.:22:54.

mums and sending it back. At the request of the Americans. This is

:22:55.:22:59.

2007, the Americans don't have a carrier in the gold. It is not

:23:00.:23:05.

because of the fire power. They would make a difference, it is

:23:06.:23:10.

political to say, hand on, we as a culture, who have common things in

:23:11.:23:15.

our belief systems, we are standing together. At the moment, they are

:23:16.:23:22.

not. I will leave it there. At this point, we say goodbye to viewers in

:23:23.:23:23.

Scotland to leave us. Good morning and welcome to

:23:24.:23:29.

Sunday Politics Scotland. The Scotland Bill is poised to

:23:30.:23:31.

finish its journey through But is the wrangling over

:23:32.:23:40.

further powers finally over? And as the nation marks

:23:41.:23:43.

Remembrance Sunday, we look at the support veterans

:23:44.:23:45.

receive once they leave the forces. When you are in the forces, you are

:23:46.:23:58.

looked after, but then it is a culture shock when you leave.

:23:59.:24:01.

The Scotland Bill is back before MPs tomorrow - accompanied

:24:02.:24:03.

by a shed load of amendments which are supposed to clarify,

:24:04.:24:06.

among other things, the new welfare powers of the Scottish Parliament.

:24:07.:24:08.

Alex Salmond has prompted a late controversy by tabling an amendment

:24:09.:24:11.

saying Holyrood should be given the power to decide if and when there is

:24:12.:24:14.

And, of course, there is a full scale political row going

:24:15.:24:19.

on over how the Scottish government should use the new welfare powers.

:24:20.:24:22.

I'm joined by the Deputy First Minister John Swinney - who's also

:24:23.:24:25.

Cabinet Secretary for Finance, the Constitution and Economy.

:24:26.:24:31.

I suppose we should point out you have been a senator in Glasgow,

:24:32.:24:38.

there used to seeing you with a silly picture of Dundee. I am in

:24:39.:24:41.

Glasgow at this point, but it silly picture of Dundee. I am in

:24:42.:24:48.

this amendment, Alex Salmond who has come up with it. I busy in the

:24:49.:24:51.

government would back him come up with it. I busy in the

:24:52.:24:54.

Robinson in saying the Scottish government should have control over

:24:55.:24:59.

when there is another independence referendum. They legislated for the

:25:00.:25:06.

independence referendum in 2014, and I think everybody acknowledges that

:25:07.:25:10.

legislation was well handed, it was crafted carefully, it was

:25:11.:25:16.

legislation was well handed, it was referendum which was beyond

:25:17.:25:20.

illustration that on this issue of significance, the Scottish

:25:21.:25:23.

parliament should be able to determine how this issue is

:25:24.:25:28.

handled. The counter would be to say you can't have one part of the UK

:25:29.:25:35.

with an indefinite right, when ever it decides, to break up the UK. We

:25:36.:25:39.

had a it decides, to break up the UK. We

:25:40.:25:41.

the legislation that was it decides, to break up the UK. We

:25:42.:25:45.

the Scottish parliament. To me that sets a strong president on how these

:25:46.:25:47.

issues should sets a strong president on how these

:25:48.:25:55.

exercised its competence with such care and effectiveness on this

:25:56.:25:58.

question should allay any of those questions that are raised about

:25:59.:26:01.

whether it is right for the Parliament to hold that power. What

:26:02.:26:06.

we've seen in the course of the last 15 years has been a transfer of

:26:07.:26:12.

additional response military is beyond the ones that were originally

:26:13.:26:16.

conceived of in the Scottish act when the reservation on a

:26:17.:26:20.

constructional policy was put in place. On the Scotland Bill Alec

:26:21.:26:26.

Neill seem to be saying that you now accept that under the Scotland Bill,

:26:27.:26:31.

you will have the powers over things like tax credits. That's right, is

:26:32.:26:36.

it? There are two amendments which will be relevant, one from the UK

:26:37.:26:40.

government and want on the Scottish National Party, which will give the

:26:41.:26:45.

parliament the power to exercise responsibilities. The amendment

:26:46.:26:50.

dolls the macro devolves the tax system, so there can be no doubt the

:26:51.:26:56.

fact the Scottish Parliament can exercise these responsibilities, and

:26:57.:26:59.

the UK amendment sets out responsibilities that enable new

:27:00.:27:04.

benefits to be created in Scotland. Those are the elements in the bill

:27:05.:27:08.

which were not in the bill when it was first put to the House of

:27:09.:27:12.

Commons and when it was published, so the UK Parliament has the

:27:13.:27:16.

opportunity tomorrow to strengthen those powers further. And you want

:27:17.:27:21.

those powers so you can do what? Do you want to mitigate the effects of

:27:22.:27:26.

tax credit cuts? We have mitigated some of the effects of welfare

:27:27.:27:29.

reform, in relation to the bedroom tax. Do you want to do it in full?

:27:30.:27:36.

Anyone that thinks the Scottish Parliament has the financial

:27:37.:27:40.

capability and skills of resources to mitigate in full, in the

:27:41.:27:43.

entirety, the welfare reform agenda... The tax credit cuts. That

:27:44.:27:50.

is different is on the whole of the agenda, it would inconceivable... Do

:27:51.:27:56.

you want to mitigate in full? What we have set out on tax cuts

:27:57.:27:59.

specifically is that once we know the scale of the challenge we face,

:28:00.:28:05.

because we don't yet know that, the UK Chancellor has been sent home to

:28:06.:28:10.

think again after the House of Lords interventions, so we're not the end

:28:11.:28:15.

of this month, and we'll know what changes George Osborne will make.

:28:16.:28:21.

Once we know that, we will bring forward our proposals. They are

:28:22.:28:28.

designed to protect the incomes of low-income families. Is that your

:28:29.:28:33.

intention to mitigate, as Labour: four, for you to mitigate the

:28:34.:28:38.

effects of the tax credit cuts? What we will do is look at the scale of

:28:39.:28:42.

the challenge that faces us once we know the extent... Let's take as of

:28:43.:28:50.

now, as the situation now, which may be mitigated by George Osborne, but

:28:51.:28:55.

as of now, what is your estimate of how much it would cost you to

:28:56.:28:58.

mitigate in full the effect of cuts crash mark the starting costs would

:28:59.:29:09.

be 400 million, and it will rise to 630 million. That is the full cost

:29:10.:29:13.

base of George Osborne put to the House of Commons. We don't know the

:29:14.:29:17.

extent on which you will undertake changes by the time we set our

:29:18.:29:22.

budget, which will though: Macro follow the spending review. This

:29:23.:29:26.

minister made it clear that it is our intention to protect people in

:29:27.:29:30.

low-income households, who will be affected by these changes and we

:29:31.:29:34.

will see what the Chancellor says, and then design a properly costed

:29:35.:29:38.

and worked out system that will support low income. Even the worst

:29:39.:29:43.

case scenario as unmitigated by George Osborne, ?400 million

:29:44.:29:48.

initially, why can't you saying now... It is your party which has

:29:49.:29:54.

been shouting loudly. Why can't you saying now, we commit, we will work

:29:55.:29:59.

out something which will mean no family in Scotland loses as a result

:30:00.:30:04.

of the tax credit cuts? For the simple reason people expect the

:30:05.:30:08.

government to bring forward properly organised and operated systems that

:30:09.:30:11.

can address these issues, and that is what we will do. The first

:30:12.:30:15.

minister could not have been clearer in Thursday in setting out the

:30:16.:30:19.

commitment of the government to support low income households.

:30:20.:30:22.

People need to look into the history of the good men to see how we have

:30:23.:30:26.

supported people in vulnerability. We supported people affected by the

:30:27.:30:32.

bedroom tax,... You saying you can't find the money? No, not in the

:30:33.:30:37.

slightest. What I will say is that we will look at what the Chancellor

:30:38.:30:40.

sets out at the end of the month. That is the responsible thing to do

:30:41.:30:45.

so we can work out the circumstances of people who are affected, and

:30:46.:30:50.

addressed that. We will set those details are the Chancellor has

:30:51.:30:54.

resolved the difficulties he has about the operation... The changes

:30:55.:30:59.

George Osborne has proposed the tax bands, which will mean you don't pay

:31:00.:31:06.

the 40p rate until your winning ?50,000, do you agree with those

:31:07.:31:12.

proposals? We will set out the details of our tax stands for the

:31:13.:31:18.

years beyond 2016. Do you agree in principle by people on higher

:31:19.:31:21.

earnings, and the point is that over the years inflation has eroded these

:31:22.:31:28.

bands so people who are on whether to low incomes than ?42,000 are

:31:29.:31:32.

having to pay the higher rate, what George Osborne is saying is that he

:31:33.:31:37.

wants to raise the threshold at which you pay higher tax. Labour

:31:38.:31:42.

said they would not do in Scotland. Whether the macro would you

:31:43.:31:48.

implement those proposals? -- would you implement those proposals? If

:31:49.:31:53.

you look at the changes I've have brought in, you saw me taking

:31:54.:31:59.

decisions which the sifted the burden of taxation from low to

:32:00.:32:02.

moderate households to higher earners. That is me turning into

:32:03.:32:06.

practical reality the principles of this Scottish National Party... What

:32:07.:32:14.

does that mean for tax band? I'm addressing it in principle. We

:32:15.:32:18.

believe people on higher earnings should pay their fair share of

:32:19.:32:22.

taxation, and I deployed that principle as part of the transaction

:32:23.:32:28.

tax. Word comes to specific commitment around about taxation, my

:32:29.:32:32.

duty as the finance minister is to set out to Parliament exactly what

:32:33.:32:36.

changes we will make. These areas will come to us in due course. We

:32:37.:32:40.

won't be able to exercise those changes in relation to tax bands in

:32:41.:32:44.

2017 because the powers will not be with us by then. They will be with

:32:45.:32:48.

us by 2017 because the powers will not be with us by then. They will be

:32:49.:32:52.

with us by what Labour is saying is that they think it is not

:32:53.:32:57.

unreasonable to ask people in Scotland to pay, and they would end

:32:58.:33:02.

up paying more tax than they are now... We think it is reasonable for

:33:03.:33:09.

them to do that to help people on welfare. Do you agree? I think I

:33:10.:33:14.

have said already the point in principle, that I believe people on

:33:15.:33:17.

higher earnings should pay their fair share of taxation. That is why

:33:18.:33:23.

we supported the existence of the 30p tax rate when the Conservative

:33:24.:33:27.

government was taking it away. We will set out our specific proposals

:33:28.:33:29.

to Parliament, where I have a duty will set out our specific proposals

:33:30.:33:33.

and obligation to do that. There is a legitimate argument which has to

:33:34.:33:38.

and obligation to do that. There is higher earnings should pay their

:33:39.:33:42.

and obligation to do that. There is they will receive a substantial tax

:33:43.:33:46.

cut, there is an issue to be addressed as to whether or not that

:33:47.:33:52.

is the right thing to do. Lots of people in this area of the country

:33:53.:33:58.

voted for you, both in the referendum and four Yes to

:33:59.:34:02.

independence. They voted SNP because you claimed you were the party

:34:03.:34:06.

buffet would stick up for the brewer and with a party of

:34:07.:34:10.

anti-austerities. What would you apply if they said, we are getting

:34:11.:34:15.

clear answers from Labour, who say they will mitigate in full the

:34:16.:34:19.

effects of tax cuts, they do think it is more important to do that than

:34:20.:34:24.

to let people who are better off have tax breaks. Why is it suddenly

:34:25.:34:29.

that the SNP can't give us clear answers? The Labour Party is not

:34:30.:34:32.

being clear, because they are spending the money they want to

:34:33.:34:37.

spend... They will spend the money they want to spend to deal with tax

:34:38.:34:43.

credits twice. They won't spend it on education. The one thing I have

:34:44.:34:46.

learned is that you can't spend money twice, you spend at the once.

:34:47.:34:51.

Labour has been caught out spending it twice. You weren't committed to

:34:52.:34:55.

mitigating the effect of tax credit cuts. You could... You would have to

:34:56.:35:07.

make ?400 billion of cuts. I am not going to commit on BBC

:35:08.:35:13.

television... I might commit to it in the Scottish parliament, where I

:35:14.:35:17.

should set out my stance. That is what I will do. Critics will say you

:35:18.:35:22.

are a bit like a chef who fusses in the kitchen demanding you don't have

:35:23.:35:29.

the right ingredients, but now you have the right ingredients and you

:35:30.:35:33.

don't want to make anything. I will set up the position when I get the

:35:34.:35:38.

budget later on this year. We will set out clearly what the stance of

:35:39.:35:40.

the government is. We have pressed and pressed the

:35:41.:35:52.

United Kingdom government to improve the Scotland Bill, which did not

:35:53.:35:55.

deliver the Smith commission and which has resulted in as exerting

:35:56.:35:59.

significant influence to ensure we have a bill which will enable us to

:36:00.:36:03.

take a whole range of decisions on behalf of the people of Scotland. We

:36:04.:36:06.

will leave it there. The nation paused today to remember

:36:07.:36:09.

those who've given their lives In 2011, the UK government

:36:10.:36:12.

introduced Signatories are expected to

:36:13.:36:18.

recognise and try to alleviate the particular problems faced by serving

:36:19.:36:22.

and former military personnel. But finding a job

:36:23.:36:25.

and a home can still be difficult. Our reporter, John McManus, has

:36:26.:36:28.

been to a support centre in Govan Coming together to remember those

:36:29.:36:44.

who have fought on the nation's behalf and especially to pay tribute

:36:45.:36:47.

to those who made the ultimate sacrifice. For many former

:36:48.:36:54.

servicepeople who have hung up their marching boots, the transition to

:36:55.:36:59.

civilian life can be tough. This is one solution. The coming home Centre

:37:00.:37:03.

in Govan, a place where former servicepeople can come for support

:37:04.:37:08.

and help. 40 rolled Martin Gilbert is one of them. With tours of Iraq

:37:09.:37:12.

and Northern Ireland under his belt, he has still found he had few

:37:13.:37:17.

transferable skills to find a new job. So where were the politicians?

:37:18.:37:22.

All the help that I have had since coming out the Army has been through

:37:23.:37:26.

charities. I would like what the Government are meant to be doing?

:37:27.:37:33.

You're meant to get priority treatment on the NHS. You have to go

:37:34.:37:38.

to the start of the queue at the doctors. But when I am unwell,

:37:39.:37:42.

iPhone the doctors and I can't even get past the person on the phone.

:37:43.:37:48.

Ian Hopkins is a former Royal Marine who founded the centre. Says a wide

:37:49.:37:56.

variety of robins are in evidence. The vast majority of people who come

:37:57.:38:00.

through these doors tend to have a mental health issue of some kind.

:38:01.:38:04.

And all the baggage that goes with it. Some are homeless, sofa surfing,

:38:05.:38:14.

or sleeping under the bridges, there are financial problems.

:38:15.:38:18.

Occasionally, problems with addiction and self-medication. Like

:38:19.:38:22.

Martin, Ian also questions whether the Armed Forces Covenant has made

:38:23.:38:28.

an impact. In some cases, yes, but quite often, that does not

:38:29.:38:35.

materialise until later... We recently had to help a veteran who

:38:36.:38:39.

lost a leg in Afghanistan. Through the NHS, he had been offered

:38:40.:38:44.

something he did not need. Until he went along and quoted the Armed

:38:45.:38:48.

Forces Covenant and said what he needed, they then changed their

:38:49.:38:54.

tune. This 29-year-old aunt his liver dog left the forces in

:38:55.:38:58.

December. He benefited from an Army resettlement plan and careers

:38:59.:39:03.

advice. He found life outside the Army's cocoon very different. I am

:39:04.:39:08.

not seeing you get baby-sat, but everyone looks after you. When you

:39:09.:39:12.

do leave, it is a culture shock, really. You don't realise, you need

:39:13.:39:17.

to go and do everything for yourself. You don't know what places

:39:18.:39:23.

are what called or how to with things. Should veterans then be

:39:24.:39:29.

given more help to adjust to life out of uniform? How far should they

:39:30.:39:33.

be prioritised? For example, when searching for somewhere to live? The

:39:34.:39:38.

approach we have taken and the veterans organisations in Scotland

:39:39.:39:41.

have taken, is we do not want to see particular advantages. I can get a

:39:42.:39:45.

negative reaction. Many veterans themselves do not want to be given

:39:46.:39:48.

an advantage but they certainly do not want to have a disadvantage. If

:39:49.:39:52.

you're in Civvy Street, you can regulate pointedly want to get

:39:53.:39:58.

social rented housing. Many of our personnel don't realise that while

:39:59.:40:02.

they are in the Armed Forces, they can accumulate points through that

:40:03.:40:06.

time as well, so leave the forces, they would already have those points

:40:07.:40:11.

to help them access a property. Back at the centre, Ian would like to see

:40:12.:40:15.

his methods spread across the country. I would duplicate what we

:40:16.:40:19.

do all over. Without a shadow of a doubt. Help centres, where people

:40:20.:40:26.

can do meaningful work and help veterans to get resettled in their

:40:27.:40:30.

communities. When it comes to organising and funding that help,

:40:31.:40:33.

have we struck the right balance between charities and the state?

:40:34.:40:35.

I'm joined from Edinburgh by the Scottish Veterans Commissioner,

:40:36.:40:37.

I am curious to know, your take on this, there seemed ten to their

:40:38.:40:50.

between what Keith Brown was saying, that veterans themselves do not want

:40:51.:40:54.

preferential treatment and the interpretation that some of the

:40:55.:40:58.

former servers personnel had of the Armed Forces Covenant, which is that

:40:59.:41:01.

they should get preferential treatment. What is your

:41:02.:41:07.

understanding? I have spoken to many veterans and people who support them

:41:08.:41:13.

over the last year. The point that they don't want preferential

:41:14.:41:16.

treatment is absolutely spot on. However, you have to acknowledge

:41:17.:41:20.

that the transition process from being in the services, and I think

:41:21.:41:25.

the gentleman in the film used the words "cocooned" to something which

:41:26.:41:30.

is quite stark. In one day, you lose your job, your way of life and you

:41:31.:41:36.

have to find a new way. There is definitely a struggle there. That is

:41:37.:41:42.

where a lot of the stress comes in. We have to look at a balance of what

:41:43.:41:46.

can be provided from the statutory services and the charities, but also

:41:47.:41:53.

from society as a whole. Right. And what is your view about whether

:41:54.:41:57.

we're getting that balance right? Some people in the film seemed to

:41:58.:42:02.

feel as if they had been left on their own. Yes. There is a small

:42:03.:42:07.

number who are seriously affected by the transition process and do need a

:42:08.:42:12.

lot of help. The majority make the transition perfectly well. Either

:42:13.:42:18.

through their own efforts or those of the MoD or local government, the

:42:19.:42:25.

NHS, whatever it happens to be, they help them get through the first

:42:26.:42:30.

hurdle. But there is definitely a group, perhaps featuring some of the

:42:31.:42:33.

individuals in that film, who do need help. There are organisations

:42:34.:42:40.

which provide help. We heard from Govan, but there are other

:42:41.:42:49.

organisations relating to employment issues or mental health aspects, who

:42:50.:42:54.

do provide help. The difficulty is often in getting the message across

:42:55.:42:59.

that these initiatives are in place. I am still not clear on, if it is

:43:00.:43:05.

the case, and you seem to agree with Keith Brown, that the veterans

:43:06.:43:10.

themselves do not want preferential treatment, what difference then is

:43:11.:43:12.

the Armed Forces Covenant supposed to make? The Armed Forces Covenant,

:43:13.:43:19.

and various other documents as well, what they have done is highlighted

:43:20.:43:25.

the difficulties and indeed the advantages of service men in your

:43:26.:43:31.

community. It has brought it into the open that some of them, a small

:43:32.:43:34.

percentage, do have issues, something to do with Chloe ability,

:43:35.:43:44.

mental health, physical problems -- employability. It has opened peoples

:43:45.:43:49.

eyes to the fact that you have this great asset. The vast majority of

:43:50.:43:53.

people who leave the Armed Forces have a huge skill set. This idea of

:43:54.:43:59.

giving service, which is instrumental in the community and

:44:00.:44:05.

workplaces and for the economy. We heard the young man they're saying

:44:06.:44:11.

that there is a problem that in a way, in the Armed Forces, you're

:44:12.:44:14.

institutionalised, you don't really have to take the initiative.

:44:15.:44:19.

Everything on the outside, you have to organise yourself when you leave.

:44:20.:44:27.

You have to pick your life in danger in combat of course but nonetheless,

:44:28.:44:30.

the point being made was it is difficult to come out of that and

:44:31.:44:33.

certainly do everything for yourself in a world that you are perhaps not

:44:34.:44:36.

as familiar with as in a world that you are perhaps not

:44:37.:44:40.

around you. People around you know how to

:44:41.:44:44.

around you. People around you know contact with particular advice

:44:45.:44:46.

local hospital or whatever but you don't know any of that. No, and

:44:47.:44:52.

there are some younger members of the Armed Forces who

:44:53.:44:57.

in their late teens or early 20s, who may well struggle. I make the

:44:58.:45:01.

point that the vast majority do know how to access the public services,

:45:02.:45:05.

point that the vast majority do know the charities, if they need to. The

:45:06.:45:09.

point I would make is that there are a lot of mechanisms in place, some

:45:10.:45:12.

relatively new, which should be a lot of mechanisms in place, some

:45:13.:45:14.

there to make that pathway that bit a lot of mechanisms in place, some

:45:15.:45:18.

smoother, throwing out some of the hurdles they have had to get over in

:45:19.:45:23.

the past. Still along way to go, in particular in areas where we have to

:45:24.:45:26.

pass on information. It is very difficult for some of these

:45:27.:45:31.

individuals to find out what information and support is

:45:32.:45:34.

available. In my first year, I seemed to spend a lot of time trying

:45:35.:45:38.

to recommend and get changes to the way information was chaired, the way

:45:39.:45:42.

knowledge is put out, so that young servicepeople in particular though

:45:43.:45:48.

what they can hook into, by way of local authorities and various other

:45:49.:45:52.

bodies, to really make it clear what is out there for them. More broadly,

:45:53.:46:00.

how do you think the whole poppy movement, Remembrance Sunday thing,

:46:01.:46:05.

will develop over the next ten or 20 years? Sadly, many of the people,

:46:06.:46:11.

originally the whole thing was set up to commemorate, or the living who

:46:12.:46:18.

were helped, but survivors of the Second World War, for example, are

:46:19.:46:22.

no longer with us. Well we still have veterans of places like Iraq

:46:23.:46:24.

and Afghanistan, the numbers are nothing like the kind of numbers of

:46:25.:46:30.

people coming back from conscripted armed service in the Second World

:46:31.:46:34.

War. Do you think the whole nature of the thing will stay the same? Or

:46:35.:46:37.

will it change over the next few years? I think it probably will stay

:46:38.:46:43.

much as it is at the moment. Change is unlikely. The military and

:46:44.:46:49.

commemoration process is a fairly conservative thing. I have just come

:46:50.:46:57.

back from Saint Giles this morning, where the late wreaths and had a

:46:58.:47:06.

two-minute silence. A lot of young people there were involved in

:47:07.:47:10.

service. The contribution that they have made, whether it is recent wars

:47:11.:47:17.

like Afghanistan or something in the Falklands, or in the Second World

:47:18.:47:22.

War, I think that will endure. I am at pains to do in my role, as

:47:23.:47:29.

Commissioner, is to make the point to anyone who will listen that we

:47:30.:47:32.

really have a huge asset. All of these people who have served in our

:47:33.:47:36.

Armed Forces over many years, men and women, and their spouses, really

:47:37.:47:41.

do contribute a huge amount. You may not see them in society but they are

:47:42.:47:45.

there. I really do think we could be making more of that. Perhaps making

:47:46.:47:49.

more of a song and dance about it at times. But at the end of the day, I

:47:50.:47:53.

believe do think the public in Scotland respect and want to

:47:54.:47:56.

acknowledge the sacrifice that so many people have made over so many

:47:57.:48:01.

years. Packs us. Thank you very much indeed.

:48:02.:48:04.

Words we hear used all the time in public and political life.

:48:05.:48:09.

But what do they really mean, and how do we do these things well?

:48:10.:48:12.

Someone with plenty of views on the subject is Susan Deacon.

:48:13.:48:15.

Her career's taken her from Government, as Scotland's first

:48:16.:48:17.

health minister after devolution, to the private sector and academia.

:48:18.:48:19.

And she's just become the new Chair of the Institute of Directors

:48:20.:48:22.

in Scotland - the first woman to hold the role.

:48:23.:48:25.

She joins us now from our Edinburgh studio.

:48:26.:48:30.

Susan Deacon, an obvious first question, why do you want to do

:48:31.:48:36.

this? My passion and interest over 30 years, throughout my career, has

:48:37.:48:40.

been about how we can have effective leadership in Scotland, how we can

:48:41.:48:44.

make our country a better place and work together to do that. The

:48:45.:48:49.

Institute of directors in Scotland is a growing organisation that

:48:50.:48:51.

brings together some 2000 leaders from right across businesses, big

:48:52.:48:56.

and small, the charitable sector, the public sector, it really is a

:48:57.:48:59.

fantastic gathering place for that leadership community to grow and

:49:00.:49:04.

develop. I am proud to take on this role as it's Chair. Despite the

:49:05.:49:11.

reconciliation between business and Blairism that went on after 1997, it

:49:12.:49:17.

is not immediately obvious why a former Labour minister would want to

:49:18.:49:24.

run an organisation which, in the past, I think it was fair to say,

:49:25.:49:29.

was seen as somewhat to the right of the CBI? There is a diverse mix of

:49:30.:49:36.

people in the organisation with all sorts of different political views

:49:37.:49:40.

and number. The organisation itself is strictly nonparty political. I

:49:41.:49:45.

have been like a cracked record for many years, to say that we have to

:49:46.:49:48.

get better at working across boundaries. Weather across sectors

:49:49.:49:57.

or parties, universities and business and Government... Having

:49:58.:50:03.

organisations like the eye of the that can join some of those dots and

:50:04.:50:07.

look at how in Scotland we can work together to bring about the change

:50:08.:50:11.

that we all want to see. It is important. If we're going to have an

:50:12.:50:15.

effect of transport infrastructure, the skills we need for the future,

:50:16.:50:19.

vibrant businesses, big and small, that means we must work together. We

:50:20.:50:25.

are small country. All too often, he pulls it and point the finger at

:50:26.:50:28.

others. We need to be around the table, not across it, if we're make

:50:29.:50:40.

a difference. Why do they want you? You would need to ask others why

:50:41.:50:44.

they want me. I would like to think the pretty eclectic mix of

:50:45.:50:47.

leadership roles I've had over the years gives me a capability to head

:50:48.:50:53.

up the organisation as its chair, but also to build some of the

:50:54.:50:56.

much-needed connectivity we need here in Scotland and a crass our

:50:57.:51:01.

leadership. I'd like to be a team player and what is nice about an

:51:02.:51:05.

organisation is that it is individuals who choose to be part of

:51:06.:51:09.

it, who want to work with others to develop themselves, their

:51:10.:51:14.

organisations, and in the main I think they are strongly motivated by

:51:15.:51:17.

wanting to make Scotland a better place. The stuff that you are saying

:51:18.:51:24.

earlier. A lot of people listen to that and think it sounds terribly

:51:25.:51:30.

grand but vague as well. Specifically, your ideal collecting

:51:31.:51:34.

people together and showing leadership, realistically, what

:51:35.:51:39.

could the IOD do, or I'll organisations like the IOD, that

:51:40.:51:43.

they're not doing? In specific terms. I have often said, including

:51:44.:51:50.

back when I was in Parliament, that you can have all the fancy

:51:51.:51:55.

strategies in the world, all the great plans and analysis and

:51:56.:52:00.

statistics you like, but unless you actually have... The government you

:52:01.:52:04.

were part of what is good at producing grand plans. I have the

:52:05.:52:09.

agreed, and one of the lessons I learned was about the limitations of

:52:10.:52:14.

top down government action, and I have criticised as being over relied

:52:15.:52:18.

on that. That was very much from that experience was if you take

:52:19.:52:22.

something like the skills gaps we have in Scotland, we have had no end

:52:23.:52:26.

of reports, we have agencies and expert groups, the kind of skills

:52:27.:52:31.

will need in the future, whether in our care sector or the IT sector, in

:52:32.:52:37.

engineering, get the amount of analysis we have done is not the

:52:38.:52:40.

portion of the two the amount of action we have had done. I accept it

:52:41.:52:46.

is not the stuff of headlines, but we need to have employees working

:52:47.:52:51.

hand-in-hand with colleges and universities, making sure the

:52:52.:52:56.

courses on offer at the ones that will equip people better for the

:52:57.:53:01.

future. Just on that. As it happens, I was speaking to people in the IOD,

:53:02.:53:05.

and what they were saying is that there is a problem now in certain

:53:06.:53:09.

areas that the world is changing so fast, courses are not giving up word

:53:10.:53:16.

so the problem is not generalities about getting people into colleges,

:53:17.:53:22.

it is that even if they are in there doing marketing, for instance, the

:53:23.:53:26.

world is changing faster than their courses. Is that what you are

:53:27.:53:32.

thinking that the IOD complainer rolling? Exactly. We live in a world

:53:33.:53:37.

where the only certainty is uncertainty. The generation, the now

:53:38.:53:41.

have to be flexible and adaptable, and those who provide education and

:53:42.:53:43.

training to them how to make sure and those who provide education and

:53:44.:53:47.

they fleet of foot and are moving with the times for the world around

:53:48.:53:53.

us. As I say, you do that I having fancy policy statements, you do it

:53:54.:53:57.

by making sure employers and education providers are working

:53:58.:54:02.

together day to day. It is not the stuff that grabs headlines, but it

:54:03.:54:06.

is the stuff that makes a difference. We said you were the

:54:07.:54:15.

first woman chair of IOD Scotland. Do you... There is a problem with

:54:16.:54:19.

women in public life in Scotland. There are many women in leading

:54:20.:54:24.

positions in Scotland, but my sense is not as much as down south. I

:54:25.:54:27.

don't know, is not as much as down south. I

:54:28.:54:31.

you look at the political leadership in Scotland, women are very much in

:54:32.:54:37.

the ascendancy. If you look at a host of businesses in Scotland you

:54:38.:54:41.

will see a growing number of women leaders. They are at the helm, both

:54:42.:54:46.

in executive roles and in our boardrooms as non-executives. But

:54:47.:54:51.

there needs to be more. It should not be an exercise about numbers.

:54:52.:54:54.

there needs to be more. It should Women, more than anyone, we want to

:54:55.:54:59.

be sure we are doing the jobs we do on merit and recognise full is that

:55:00.:55:08.

discussion about diversity, it is not just about numbers, it is not

:55:09.:55:13.

making sure our boardrooms have the skills and ability to do the job. We

:55:14.:55:21.

are making progress, but we have 2 do more work. OK, we will leave it

:55:22.:55:23.

there now. I'm joined by Shabnum Mustapha,

:55:24.:55:30.

who was a special adviser to the Liberal Democrats in government, and

:55:31.:55:33.

by Paul Hutcheon, the Investigations Shabnum, let's talk rubbish tax

:55:34.:55:48.

credits Raoul. What do you make of it? I find it bizarre that the SNP

:55:49.:55:53.

did not know there were powers coming through that would allow them

:55:54.:55:58.

to top it up, but they... They would say they could not know about the

:55:59.:56:05.

amendments until they saw the amendments. Everyone else seemed to

:56:06.:56:09.

be aware of it. The SNP were playing catch up and it was embarrassing for

:56:10.:56:13.

Alex Neill in the middle of the six minute speech having to make a

:56:14.:56:17.

U-turn about what they can and can't do with new powers coming forward in

:56:18.:56:21.

the bill. At the same time this week, they seemed clear on their

:56:22.:56:26.

demands for powers in Scotland to hold another referendum. It seems to

:56:27.:56:32.

be that it is odd... You heard what John Swinney was saying, they will

:56:33.:56:37.

help the low paid and worst. The issue is that they have had to be

:56:38.:56:43.

tried into this. It is quite an usual for the SNP to be on the back

:56:44.:56:47.

foot. They should have been there from the start saying no matter what

:56:48.:56:51.

happens at Westminster, people in Scotland who lie on these tax

:56:52.:56:57.

credits will be no worse off. They should have been front putting this.

:56:58.:57:02.

Instead they are on the back foot and scrambling around. Do you agree

:57:03.:57:07.

with that, Paul Hutcheon? I was trying to suggest that the SNP is

:57:08.:57:12.

that they are anti-austerities, and Shabnum says they should be saying,

:57:13.:57:20.

we should do this and that. But they are saying, I can't say until I get

:57:21.:57:26.

the budgets. I agree the SNP have been on the back but in this issue.

:57:27.:57:31.

There is a brutal political reality underpinning this. Labour will not

:57:32.:57:35.

win the election, so they can afford to make adventurous and bold

:57:36.:57:40.

spending commitment on tax credits, because they know they would be in

:57:41.:57:44.

the position to implement it. The SNP will win the election, so what

:57:45.:57:47.

ever they say on tax credits, they're going to have to deliver on

:57:48.:57:51.

it. They will have to find the money. That explains their

:57:52.:57:58.

reluctance. One criticism of labour, I presume, is that they are saying

:57:59.:58:03.

it might appeal to people affected by the tax credit cuts, but Middle

:58:04.:58:07.

Scotland might say, we quite like the idea of the tax changes George

:58:08.:58:13.

Osborne is bringing in. There has been good politics from the Scottish

:58:14.:58:16.

Labour Party and that they are showing that this dwindling thing.

:58:17.:58:21.

But where is the money going to come from? They say they won't raise

:58:22.:58:27.

taxes on middle income earners, it would push ahead with cuts and

:58:28.:58:32.

fiddle with tax bands. There are questions over that. Given that

:58:33.:58:37.

Labour would win the election, they won't be subjected to too many

:58:38.:58:41.

detailed questions, it will all be about what the SNP will do. You can

:58:42.:58:46.

understand the SNP wearing about these things. I bet you don't find

:58:47.:58:50.

the Lib Dems are rushing to say they don't think people should not gain

:58:51.:58:56.

from the changes. In government you how to make difficult decisions, but

:58:57.:59:01.

on welfare, the Lib Dems have made it clear they won't introduce

:59:02.:59:05.

sweeping reforms that George Osborne wanted. We block them in government.

:59:06.:59:08.

The SNP should have been front putting this issue. What about Paul

:59:09.:59:17.

Hutcheon's point. John Swinney says it will cost ?400 million if the

:59:18.:59:21.

situation were as now. Where will they find the money from? You don't

:59:22.:59:25.

have the worry of about that in opposition. As Paul offline, Labour

:59:26.:59:30.

have made those choices as to whether money will come from. The

:59:31.:59:35.

SNP can find the money at the will is there. So you have to question

:59:36.:59:38.

where their political will is there in helping the brewer in Scotland.

:59:39.:59:44.

Someone else would just come up is David Cameron getting tough on

:59:45.:59:50.

Europe. Come on's exit warning on EU reform will stop he will tell they

:59:51.:59:54.

might generally leave the EU if he does not get what he wants for some

:59:55.:59:59.

credible? No, it is a blood which people will see through. It has the

:00:00.:00:04.

makings of a quagmire for the Prime Minister. I can't see anything he

:00:05.:00:10.

can bring back that will persuade his Eurosceptic colleagues. Even

:00:11.:00:14.

more importantly, even if he does bring back powers, there's no

:00:15.:00:17.

guarantee that if the referendum is successful for the Prime Minister,

:00:18.:00:21.

that these governed will sign of two and agree to it. You might have a

:00:22.:00:25.

change of government it one of the eastern European countries and they

:00:26.:00:28.

won't back. You have governments that are accountable to their own

:00:29.:00:33.

electorates, not to the UK. I think he is getting sucked into a

:00:34.:00:37.

situation he can't control and has been left with headlines like this

:00:38.:00:40.

which are bluffing. He might mean it. I'm not sure. One of the

:00:41.:00:47.

proposals that he has come forward with is to ban migrants from

:00:48.:00:51.

claiming benefits for four years. Even his own Cabinet Secretary has

:00:52.:00:55.

told them it is illegal under EU law. He will fail at the first

:00:56.:00:59.

hurdle on that one. You how to astral self, where is he going with

:01:00.:01:03.

it? Will he have to campaign leaving the EU question what I did think it

:01:04.:01:08.

is what he wants or George Osborne. They have not properly thought this

:01:09.:01:14.

out, and it a mess. Adding to the mix that with Davidson has said

:01:15.:01:19.

exquisitely that she wants to stay in the EU -- Ruth Davison. It is

:01:20.:01:26.

incongruent with saying I might leave if I don't get what I want. On

:01:27.:01:32.

face value there is difference, but everyone expects the Prime Minister

:01:33.:01:36.

to be arguing for Britain's placed in the EU. No one expect him to beat

:01:37.:01:40.

campaigning for an exit abode. He is trying to ramp up the rhetoric, give

:01:41.:01:44.

the impression this is what he wants. No one expects him to be

:01:45.:01:52.

serious. What about Syria? It is bubbling under the issue. One figure

:01:53.:01:57.

saying you are letting down allies by not bombing Syria, but the

:01:58.:02:04.

government saying they would intend to go back to the House of Commons

:02:05.:02:07.

but only when the mood is right. What do you make of these

:02:08.:02:11.

developments? The mood is not there, the mood is not the amongst all the

:02:12.:02:15.

political parties, including the Conservative side. We saw foreign

:02:16.:02:21.

affairs select committee report, which the majority of Conservative

:02:22.:02:25.

MPs said the case has not been made for military intervention. The focus

:02:26.:02:29.

should be more on coming up with a kind of regional solution, bringing

:02:30.:02:32.

in people from across the Middle East together to try and come up

:02:33.:02:36.

with a more peaceful solution. And also taking in refugees who are in

:02:37.:02:43.

with a more peaceful solution. And not doing. You can see the twin fun

:02:44.:02:48.

tree people, because it is almost part of the definition of what

:02:49.:02:58.

Islamic State is -- you can see the argument. The argument is that, they

:02:59.:03:03.

don't recognise these bodies, yet we are making some artificial

:03:04.:03:03.

distinction. are making some artificial

:03:04.:03:17.

-- has happened. You then have the are making some artificial

:03:18.:03:22.

intervention of Russia. It is a complex situation. The political

:03:23.:03:24.

mood is not there, so complex situation. The political

:03:25.:03:27.

focus efforts on other complex situation. The political

:03:28.:03:31.

military. You can't Sunday Politics is back in a

:03:32.:03:39.

fortnight at the usual time, 11am.

:03:40.:03:43.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news and debate, including developments following the Russian plane crash in Egypt and an interview with shadow health secretary Heidi Alexander.

On the political panel are Janan Ganesh of The Financial Times, and Polly Toynbee and Nick Watt of The Guardian.


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