Browse content similar to 17/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Was former London Mayor Ken Livingstone booted off | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
Or, as Mr Livingstone claims, did he step down | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
because he is at one on all defence matters with this lady, | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Labour's new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry. | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Like Mr Livingstone she's not a fan of Britain's | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
David Cameron has a plan to deliver some rabbits from the hat in his | :00:55. | :01:08. | |
renegotiation with Brussels. Another campaign has entered the fray on his | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
site, led by former Euro Tory sceptic. As it hots up, we will be | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
talking to a man who wants to be out, Nigel Farage and a man who | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
wants to stay in, Ken Clarke. Donald Trump and his former charm, Alex | :01:25. | :01:32. | |
Salmond, have been expending the week exchanging pleasantries. We'll | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
We'll be talking to the former First Minister of Scotland. | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotand: | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
What will it mean to communities in the capital? | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
I won't have a nasty word said against them. | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
So first today let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn, | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
who gave a wide-ranging interview on the Marr show a little earlier. | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
My question, with respect, was about sympathy action | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
and whether you would remove that legislation. | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
Sympathy action is legal in most other countries and I think it | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
should also be legal here. But remember this... | :02:23. | :02:23. | |
So you would repeal those Tory laws? | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Yes, of course. Nobody willingly goes on strike. | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
They go on strike as an ultimate weapon. | :02:28. | :02:29. | |
The number of strikes is actually very small. | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
It's an ultimate weapon that is used. | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
Anyone that is going on strike is making an enormous sacrifice. | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
They don't get paid, they suffer a great deal as a result | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
of it, so let's look at the causes of people being upset rather | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
A policy packed interview with Andrew Marr on the Falklands, | :02:43. | :02:59. | |
Islamic State, secondary striking, even on the idea maybe we could keep | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
Trident but not any missile warheads on the missiles. I felt nostalgic. I | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
was back to a teenager in the 1980s, I remember these arguments in the | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
1980s and Michael foot put them in the manifesto for the 1983 election. | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
He was robust on the Falkland Islands. He was. The point for | :03:24. | :03:32. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is he has a mandate from the party to put forward these | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
arguments. He had a 60% vote and it is clear what he thinks of nuclear | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
weapons. He has been a member of CND since 1966. The challenge for Jeremy | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
Corbyn is to put forward ideas in a way that appeals beyond new members | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
of the Labour Party to the electorate as a whole who have | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
concerns about security of the nation, for example, possibly having | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
successor submarines of the Trident system without nuclear weapons. That | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
is the Japanese system, they talk in Japan how they have what is known as | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
the bomb in the basement. They are a non-declared nuclear state but could | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
arm themselves with nuclear weapons within minutes if needed. That is | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
what he is talking about. Sounds good in the leg party but he needs | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
to sell it to the country as a whole. It is clear a lot of what | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Jeremy Corbyn says has the support of the grassroots, particularly the | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
new ones who have joined the party. It is clear a lot of this does not | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. That is | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
the constant problem yet to be squared. I cannot see a way it will | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
be squared. I do not think many Labour MPs can either. His problem | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
is admirable, it is he is determined not to remove himself from things | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
said in the past. On the Falklands he is consistent with what he said | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
in 2013, when it did not matter, and how he is now repeating those views. | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
The problem is now Jeremy Corbyn matters and if you look at the | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
Falklands, the last time there was a vote of those on the Falkland | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
Islands, only three voted to change the system of administration, so he | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
is out of step with people living there. He sets out his left-wing | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
stall on these issues. Bit by bit, he is taking his time, doing it | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
astutely. He is taking the lead party in his direction, part of the | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
purpose I would suggest of the interview will stop no one could | :05:38. | :05:47. | |
question that. If you go into a general election with a leader who | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
says something like, let's have the return of secondary picketing, and | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
that is not the worst idea in the manifesto, also talking about | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
renewing the vanguard submarines without warheads and I think he | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
floated the idea of reasonable accommodation with Argentina on the | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
Falklands, he would go to the election knowing you have a white, | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
working-class base, which is already flirting with Ukip. How low can | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
Labour Singh? Technically it is impossible to get rid of him but | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
maybe politics is like water and finds a way to go around obstacles. | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
And if his ideas turn out to be popular? I think they will be | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
popular with the membership at every general election since 1983 would | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
suggest to us these ideas are outside the mainstream. Jeremy | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
Corbyn says there is a new world out there, I tapped into that in the | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
campaign, with thousands packing up meetings. We have the electoral test | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
in May, let's see how the ideas go down outside the party. Should | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
written keep its nuclear deterrent? -- Great Britain. | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
Jeremy Corbyn doesn't think so and neither | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
does his new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
who we'll be talking to in just a minute. | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
But first here's Adam on a multi-billion-pound question. | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
The Imperial War Museum is showing the work of artist Peter Kennard, | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
the creator of some of the starkest images of the campaign | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
This was in 1980, this is when cruise missiles were coming | :07:20. | :07:32. | |
to Britain and the idea was they were going to circulate | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
It's coming back into fashion because some time this year | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
the Government is expected to hold a Parliamentary vote | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
on whether to build a new generation of submarines to carry | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
The issue is dogging Labour, as Jeremy Corbyn made his first | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
speech of the year at the Fabian's campaign group conference. | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
I thank you very much for inviting me here today. | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's speech focused on energy, Europe, rail prices... | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
no mention of Trident, which he has campaigned | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
The issue is - not all of his MPs agree with him. | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
My view at the moment is that the case in favour | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
of retaining is stronger than the case against, | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
but I think it's important we review this and look at all the options. | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
I'm in favour of keeping our nuclear deterrent. | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
I think it's important for keeping our country safe. | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
It's Labour Party policy, I hope it will stay that way. | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
Have you had an argument with Jeremy about it yet? | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
Definitely arguing with Jeremy this week, the boss of the GMB union, | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
who says building new subs will safeguard thousands of jobs | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
in places like Barrow, where they're built. | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
If anybody thinks that unions like the GMB are going to go quietly | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
into the night while tens of thousands of our members' jobs | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
are literally swaneed away by rhetoric, then they have | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
Meet the woman who's got to reconcile the two tribes, | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, a critic | :09:00. | :09:01. | |
of Trident who's doing the party's defence review. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
But it's turning into a row about how Labour makes policy. | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
On one side, the people who feel the decision should be made by | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
We have a national policy forum, we have a process where the papers | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
go to our conference and are voted on. | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
They involve trade unionists, they involve affiliated | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
John Landsman, who campaigns for a bigger role for party | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
activists and founded the Corbynite group Momentum, | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
I'm not convinced the Government has to have a vote at all, | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
but if it decides to have a vote we obviously need to have taken some | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
soundings among party members and affiliates about what they think | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
So, Labour Party policy on Trident could change by the summer? | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
We will have had some process to consider our policy | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
before the summer, yes, obviously, we have to. | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
So Labour Party policy, when it comes to a vote, | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
by the summer could be voting against the renewal of Trident? | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
Look, I know that you're trying to get me to say very briefly, | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
you know, something very quick about how policy is made | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
in our party, the trouble is it's quite a complex process. | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
Policy is ultimately decided by party conference | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party but if we have to take quicker | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
decisions, we have to do it by other methods. | :10:31. | :10:40. | |
That might drive some Labour people into meltdown. | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
It could be war, not just over whether Labour supports the renewal | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
of Trident, but also who gets to make the decision. | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
And with me now, the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
Welcome. Did you drop Ken Livingstone from the defence review? | :10:58. | :11:09. | |
No, it was going to be my review and when I spoke to Jeremy about it I | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
said it was an honour to take an extraordinary job, to be able to | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
shadow a department where people are prepared to put their lives on the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
line. Was he part of the defence review already? I said I would lead | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
the review and it will be my review, and it will feed into international | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
policy commission, co-chaired by Ken Livingstone, which will feed into | :11:33. | :11:41. | |
the national policy forum which will then feed into party conference. Mr | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
Livingstone said on defence matters he had lunch with you and you agree | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
on everything on the defence side and so voluntarily stepped aside, is | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
that true? I am a big fan of Ken Livingstone, that is not a secret, I | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
am also against Trident. I come in as a sceptic and also with the | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
ambition to listen to what people say, to be not afraid to ask | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
difficult questions and to come to a view on policy on the basis of | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
evidence. Did he step aside because you broadly agreed on defence | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
matters? Jeremy Corbyn put me in charge of the review and that is | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
what happened. Did Mr Livingstone step aside as he said? He is chair | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
of the commission I will be feeding my review into. I understand. Do you | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
agree on everything when it comes to defence? I agree with a lot Ken | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
Livingstone says but I do not agree we should pull out of Nato and I | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
will not review this on the basis of us changing any international | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
agreements or organisations we are signed up to. The review will take | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
place within the context of our continued membership of Nato? That | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
is right. On Trident? Ken Livingstone is against renewing | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
Trident. That has been your position. I think the days of | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
unilateral, multilateral, all of this sort of thing is from the | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
1980s. We should look at what are the 21st-century threats to Britain | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
and how should we best address them? It seems that is the best way to do | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
it, look at the threats and what is the best way of addressing that. | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
What I am more than anything is a moderniser. You voted against | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
renewal of Trident in 2007. Do you know what, in the 80s, I was in | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
favour of Trident because there were two macro sides, life was different, | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
but life has moved on since 2007. Certainly since the 1980s, and I | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
think the time has come for us to have a debate about what the | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
21st-century threats are, which includes whether or not it is the | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
appropriate response. What would change your mind? What could you be | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
told about Trident that would make you think we should keep it? Good | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
days and want to go into it with an days and want to go into it with an | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
open mind and look at evidence. You are against Trident? I am in favour | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
of making policy on the basis of evidence put before me and I have | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
had a large number of invitations to talk to people and pick their | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
brains. I want to be able to do that and bring the party with me. Are you | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
against drone strikes? No, I think in the future the role of drones is | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
likely to increase, under the sea and for air strikes. When you were | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
shadow Attorney General, did you question the legality under | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
international law? This is quite difficult, because the advice I gave | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
to the leaders... You have got that wrong. I was asking a question. | :14:57. | :15:06. | |
Have you questioned their legality or not? There is a difference | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
between their use and bare existence so therefore... I'm so sorry but | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
it's legally privileged and I cannot talk about advice I gave to the | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
leader. All right but you can talk to the electorate. Would you support | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
the use of drone strikes? I would support the use of whatever means | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
are necessary to keep the British people safe. Including drone | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
strikes? Yes, within the confines of the law. Do you have an end date | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
when you think you have got to have the review done by? No, I don't want | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
the strategic review to be anything like the Tories' which was very | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
short. They opened a website and only allowed people to put 200 words | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
in and in my view didn't look at it properly so it will take as long as | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
it takes. I have a lot to look at. I understand, we have a lot of ground | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
to cover and we don't have a lot of time this morning. In the meantime | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
it's almost certain there will be a major vote on Trident, which begins | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
the real spending on the renewal some time in the spring. What will | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
happen to Labour? Will you be whipped to vote in favour of current | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
party policy, which is pro-Trident? Will you be encouraging to -- people | :16:32. | :16:40. | |
to vote against it? The first question is, are they going to have | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
a vote, are they going to have a vote in the spring, and what will | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
the vote be? Will we have the Treasury and the MoD agreeing? If | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
there is a main gate proposal, comes forward to the Commons, how will you | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
vote? The rumour is they are not going to have anything more than | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
another vote in principle on whether or not we should renew Trident. | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
Pro-Trident people should be angry about that because we had a vote | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
about that in 2007, what have they been doing all this time? Labour | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
policy is to have a continual artsy deterrent but to have a review. We | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
are in the process of having a review, we need to look at when the | :17:27. | :17:37. | |
vote is, what it is about, then I will have a discussion with Jeremy | :17:38. | :17:39. | |
and the Chief Whip and did -- decision will be made. Jeremy has | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
said he wants macro to accommodate differences in views and I have said | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
my review has got to be done in an atmosphere of trust and respect. So | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
it will be a free vote. What do you say to those who say when it comes | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
to the Trident part of the defence review that it is a sham, that you | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
have replaced Maria Eagle who was pro-Trident. Your leader is a | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
lifelong unilateral disarmament. The party grass roots is increasingly | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
hostile to Trident, so the chances of this recommending anything other | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
than don't renew Trident is pretty impossible. I will begin this review | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
by looking at the threat to Britain because my overriding responsibility | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
is to make sure it is in line with what keeps Britain safe. We will | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
take it as the evidence takes us. That is how we will approach it. | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
Jeremy has already said, he said in the last few days that it may be | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
this won't be a binary decision, things are not must rarely black and | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
white any more, we are not going to the 1980s. What do you make of this | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
idea that he floated on the Andrew Marr Show this morning that we could | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
maybe renew Trident but not put warheads on the missiles? The | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
Japanese option, that is certainly one thing that needs to be looked | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
at. What would be the point? I'm not saying this is what we are going to | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
do, but the way that it works is that the Japanese have got the | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
capability to build a nuclear bomb if they need to, but you can then | :19:17. | :19:25. | |
use them in various delivery forms. That's a possibility, it is an | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
option. So you put the eventual warheads onto Trident submarines? | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
Trident missiles? I appreciate that you want me to speculate and I | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
understand that. Your leader spoke about it this morning. I have said | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
there are of options. When you file a ballistic missile at a country, | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
every early warning ballistic missile system will assume that is | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
an attack because ballistic missile is only carry nuclear weapons so we | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
will risk retaliation for something that is not using nuclear weapons, | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
isn't that very dangerous? You are welcome to take part in my review. I | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
am a kind of busy on the day job. Do you think the party membership | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
should determine Trident policy, not just be consulting on it, which I | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
know you'll want to do, but should they determined in the end such | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
important issue? Party conference will decide what our policy is. I | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
would like to have a review that will have party members feeding into | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
it, feeding into their views in a way we have not had before and I | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
will encourage that. You weren't in the end have a vote among party | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
members to determine your policy? Our rules are that party conference | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
decides our policy. Do you think you will have your ducks in a row by the | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
time of this year's party conference? If I can help the | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
national policy Forum by doing an interim report, I will do so. What | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
do you say to the trade union leaders who say you will put | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
thousands of jobs at risk if you don't renew Trident? I say I will | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
listen to what they say and I will look at whether there are other | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
alternatives. I understand, and I fully respect the concerns that have | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
been raised so we need to look at whether there are solutions to that. | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
You have taken substantial donations from a law firm that support clients | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
that took the British Army to court on what turned out to be deliberate | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
and miscalculated lies, holy and entirely without merit, where the | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
accusations against the army. Should you return that? What happened was | :21:56. | :22:06. | |
that Lee Day seconded people to my office because when your shadow | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
Attorney General you don't have any resources at all. You didn't get | :22:10. | :22:19. | |
?14,500 in donations? No, so I got very good bright lawyers and I have | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
returned all of them and they were very good and they helped us be a | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
good opposition. So there is no money to return? There is no money | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
to return and it was a pleasure to have them in my office, they were | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
very helpful to the Labour Party and interned to the country. We were | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
summarising legislation, helping with clauses, giving advice to the | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
leaders' office. Unfortunately the Government will now even cut the | :22:50. | :23:00. | |
money. Will you come back when your review is complete? Any time. We | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
will hold you to that. Now to the European Union | :23:05. | :23:06. | |
and Britain's membership of it. George Osborne appeared | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
quietly confident this week about the Government's chances | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
of impressing voters with the deal it gets from Brussels, | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
and even the European President, Jean-Claude Junker, appeared more | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
upbeat about the prospects Not good news for | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
those who want out? But they'll be buoyed by one poll | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
this morning that puts the "out" This morning there's news of another | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
group on the pro-EU campaign trail. The question may be fairly simple | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
but there are rather a lot of different campaigns | :23:29. | :23:37. | |
trying to bend our ears. On the side of those | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
who want us out of the EU, there's the Vote Leave campaign | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
headed by Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott, | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
who ran the successful They're also linked | :23:49. | :23:50. | |
to Business For Britain, which has the support of a number | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
of leading business figures, and to the groups Labour Leave | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
and Conservatives For Britain, Also campaigning for Brexit | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
is Leave.EU, which has links to Ukip and is funded by the Ukip donor | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
Arron Banks. They're vying with the Vote Leave | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
campaign to be the officially And to top it all, there is now Go, | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
a new grass-roots group made up of MPs including Kate Hoey | :24:14. | :24:27. | |
and David Davis which is designed to coordinate campaigning | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
on the ground. On the other side, the main group | :24:30. | :24:30. | |
is the Britain Stronger In Europe, headed by the former Marks | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
Spencer's boss Sir Stuart Rose. Then there's Business | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
For New Europe, led by Roland Rudd, Labour Yes, led by Alan Johnson, | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
and now there's a new group set up by the Tory MP Nick Herbert, | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
called Conservatives Even though some of the members | :24:44. | :24:44. | |
are Eurosceptics, they say they will support David Cameron's | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
renegotiation and will vote to remain inside the EU | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
if he's successful. Expect a few leaflets | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
through your door in the next And with us now is the Ukip | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
leader, Nigel Farage. With even staunch Eurosceptic MPs | :25:01. | :25:18. | |
like Nick Herbert campaigning to stay in, don't you worry the tide of | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
opinion is moving away from you and tour was David Cameron? I would | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
never regard Nick Herbert as a staunch Eurosceptic. He campaigned | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
to keep the pound, he was paid to do it. He has never once advocated | :25:38. | :25:48. | |
Britain should leave the EU so he is doing a job bolstering the Prime | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Minister. There was lots of speculation, will Boris Johnson back | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
the outcome pain? What do you think? I don't know. Not Michael Gove, we | :25:58. | :26:05. | |
know now. I suspect lots of senior politicians will put their careers | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
before their conscience and back the Prime Minister. I am beginning to | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
see this referendum as the people versus the politicians, it might not | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
matter. Except your own side continues to be riven by | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
factionalism. We have vote to leave, Leave.EU, and they seem to be | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
spending more time attacking each other than the common enemy. You | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
have these groups vying to be the official bumbler group. I've been | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
trying to support both of the organisations, though I have to say | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
when I listen to Dominic Cummings on Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
believe. Yes, and suddenly they are Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
talking about a two referendum strategy which I don't like the look | :26:55. | :27:03. | |
of one little bit. Why not? The argue was, we can vote to come out | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
and then Europe will panic and make us an offer which will be | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
effectively associated membership and we could vote on that. We | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
effectively have that now, we had that since the euro was created. Dan | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Harmon has criticised every government that has lost a | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
referendum. After the interview I saw the other day I wasn't sure. | :27:27. | :27:34. | |
There is now a third group called Go. It does lend itself to jokes | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
about the Judaean people's struggle. The point about Go is that it is | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
there to break the deadlock, and next Saturday there will be | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
Conservatives, Labour, Ukip and DUP sharing a public platform. There's a | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
big auditorium with 2000 people coming and we will start the ground | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
campaign in earnest. Should Vote Leave and Leave.EU amalgamate? Of | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
course. Leave.EU are brilliant at mass-marketing. Vote Leave are | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
Westminster -based group of people with some fantastic links to the | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
business community, some great academic back-up. They would be | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
complimentary, not contradictory. Meanwhile, as you still struggle to | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
get a united front, if I can put it like that, perhaps the United front | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
of the Judaean people's struggle... I would suggest from the better | :28:39. | :28:46. | |
together project, which proved so effective in the Scottish | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
referendum, shouldn't you fear Project Fear? Even Project Fear has | :28:55. | :29:09. | |
a problem because a Scottish minister said all of the big | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
businesses would leave Britain, but we would maintain our manufacturing | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
bases. Even though if we stay in there will be some uncertainty as | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
the euro zone becomes more united and we are likely to be part of | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
that, so you cannot be sure of the future, no one on your side can tell | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
us if we come out what will our status beach? What will our | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
relationship be? Because you have lots of differences. We have a whole | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
range of options. There are countries all over the world with | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
different relationships, the Swiss have bilateral relationships the | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
Norwegians have a relationship with the economic area. We are the | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
biggest trading partner the has in the world, trading at a vast trading | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
deficit. We want a British deal based on trade, cooperation and | :30:03. | :30:03. | |
nothing more. There is still the uncertainty as to | :30:04. | :30:14. | |
whether you can deliver. Every German car manufacturer, every | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
producer, will insist we do that deal as quickly as possible. You | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
hold that but it is uncertain. Under the terms of the treaties, on day | :30:24. | :30:32. | |
one nothing would change, we would have access to markets during the | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
time we renegotiate the British deal. Do you feel the ground moving | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
on to you as the forces of the British state, Alex Salmond felt the | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
same with the Scottish referendum, it is a formidable force and you are | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
up against it? In terms of our political class, yes, I think the | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
chances of many people currently in senior positions in politics, | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
perhaps they diminish, inevitably, but you cannot take away from | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
ordinary folk scene such as Cologne and saying to themselves, in three | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
years, all of these people will have EU passports and be able to come to | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
Britain. This campaign will be the people against the politicians and | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
the more the politicians clubbed together, perhaps more the people | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
will choose to vote against them. In any possibility of a relationship | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
with the EU out, will almost certainly involve continued free | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
movement and these people may well still be able to come to this | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
country under any deal you reach? We have free trade deals all over the | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
world that don't involve the free movement of people, it is only in | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
Europe we have the free -- pretence that we have to have free movement | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
of people. I want to control our borders and have an Australian style | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
points system where we can judge whether people will make a positive | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
contribution to society and I cannot do that as a member of the EU. You | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
have not had the best of times, since the election. It culminated in | :32:04. | :32:16. | |
what you designated a car breakdown as an assassination attempt. Has | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
that undermined, as the most famous person on the outcome paying, has it | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
undermined your credibility? I do not think it does. To say we have | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
had a tough time, it is interesting, Ukip has been written off by every | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
commentator in Fleet Street but the latest poll had us at 17%. The most | :32:36. | :32:45. | |
important issue, immigration, we are the most trusted party on 29% and we | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
go into this year with the expectation of winning seats in | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and playing a big role in this | :32:55. | :32:55. | |
referendum. Let's talk now to former | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
Conservative Chancellor, Are you in any doubt the Prime | :32:58. | :33:10. | |
Minister is going to be the enthusiastic leader of the campaign | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
to remain in the EU? I think you will, because all the news, although | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
it is not really news, a lot of it is rumoured, is he will come back | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
with a reasonable deal. He has already got the things he first | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
talked about in the bag when he first announced he was going to have | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
a referendum and seek reforms. He has added one or two more. Nobody | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
knows the final deal but they are close to getting one and the debate | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
is getting more serious and I think David will advocate staying in. He | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
will put it, a reformed European union. Given this was the | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
predictable outcome, is the referendum process, promoted by | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
David Cameron, worth the candle? We shall see. You can see now, is it or | :33:59. | :34:07. | |
not? Wait for the outcome, which will determine the effect of the | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
referendum on British politics and the economy. All politicians of my | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
generation did not think a referendum was a good way to run a | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
modern, sophisticated country. You wish she had not done it? I do not | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
think anybody thinks... I was in favour of calling a referendum. | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
Margaret Thatcher denounced referendums in stronger terms than I | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
have and they are a gamble and I do not think the Scottish one has | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
resolved the Scottish independence issue. Let me come on to Scotland. | :34:42. | :35:26. | |
It is complicated and sometimes frightening. Our nations are now | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
ended on each other. We will be modern and independent state. -- | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
dependent state. It'll be more moderate everything in. It is said | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
that Nigel Farage is a parody of a right wing nationalist, on both | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
sides, people are inclined to say there will be calamity if we leave. | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
There is huge uncertainty if we leave. I personally, strongly | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
believe that my grandchildren will discover... I understand. We know | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
you want to stay in so I want to ask you some questions about that. If we | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
do want to remain, should our membership of the euro, at some | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
stage, come back to the agenda? I don't think it will in my lifetime. | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
Should it? The euro has got to be reformed. The crisis has still not | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
been sorted. Should come back onto the British agenda? In your I am not | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
going to start forecasting the future. I do believe that, if you | :36:37. | :36:46. | |
have a single market, this is an a trade deal, if you have a single | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
market, there is a single means of exchange. They made a mess of the | :36:51. | :37:00. | |
euro, they did not run properly. We may find that if we do want the same | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
currency, I can't tell. Do you worry? You're very pro-European. You | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
can be critical of it but do you worry now that, any future, every | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
vote to stay in, the future of the EU will very much we watch takes | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
place inside the Eurozone? That there will be, on the periphery, a | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
country club member? Does that worry It did when we started. There really | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
was an issue that needed to be addressed. We are always there, I | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
think. What we did not want is the decision of the British and one or | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
two others who will never join any foreseeable future, not to join. The | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
single currency was going to make a second-class citizens. The Eurozone | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
group should not start deciding things that adversely affected us. I | :37:53. | :38:03. | |
think it is nearly there. My understanding is, I am not directly | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
involved but I have been to Brussels a bit, I think it is is the most | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
important point. It will not feature in this campaign. They are really | :38:11. | :38:21. | |
important things, things that people like me was wanted. We have run out | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
of time but we do thank you for the short interview this morning. We | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
will come back you as the debate progresses. Just gone 11 30 5am. We | :38:28. | :38:37. | |
now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
Unite boss Len McCluskey says the union will give its unequivocal | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
backing to Labour in the May elections. | :38:48. | :38:49. | |
And to staying in Europe Professor Anton Muscatelli is speaking to us | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
live about the biggest educational project in Scotland and his work | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
This road in Corstophine in Edinburgh is Scotland's most | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
polluted - how is it linked to a deferred vote | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
Now - in the independence referendum campaign Unite the Union, | :39:05. | :39:13. | |
as it likes to call itself - sat on the fence. | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
Its argument was that so many of its members wanted | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
independence it didn't want to split the union. | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
The general secretary, Len McCluskey, said yesterday that | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
about 60% of his members in Scotland voted SNP in the general | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
So, would Unite call for an SNP vote in May, | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
Well, I spoke to Mr McCluskey earlier. | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
I began by asking him about one of his other recent suggestions - | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
that Labour should apologise to the people of Scotland. | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
I think what I was trying to say is that the ideology of new Labour, | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
which is pretty prevalent in some of the leaders within Scottish Labour, | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
is that its drives Scottish working people away from Labour and towards | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
the S and P. Perhaps calling for an apology... -- SNP. We now have to | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
say that Labour is under new management so we have to regain your | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
trust and we have to try to make certain that Labour is once again | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
seen as the side of ordinary working people. Evidently, over a long | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
period of time, Scottish Labour lost that trust. It manifested itself on | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
the 7th of May last year and a way that was quite staggering. Yes, we | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
have to be honest and we have to understand what the Scottish | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
working-class are telling us. Now, Nicola Sturgeon, I believe, is | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
seeking at your conference later today. The SNP governments here say | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
they are fighting Tory austerity. Scottish Labour said they are | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
fighting issues like social care and catalogue authorities. The SNP, you | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
say, are implementing it. Which side are you on? I am on the side of the | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
Labour Party. What we have to do with the SNP is the gain to | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
Labour Party. What we have to do scrutinise what the SNP are doing. | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
The reality is that, we need to see, is there a difference between | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
rhetoric and reality? The SNP say that there may be, they have been | :41:34. | :41:42. | |
very pro-union -- they have to turn some of that rhetoric into policy, | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
and to practical policy. We want to see that being more active in | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
opposing the austerity that has been imposed by the Westminster | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
governments. Rather than just blaming Westminster, we want a | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
practical example of how they can oppose this. They want to change the | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
lives of Scottish people and we want to see this. Getty Dugdale, I think | :42:10. | :42:17. | |
is doing a first-class job in leading that challenge. -- Kezia | :42:18. | :42:27. | |
Dugdale. I think it is a question of trying to put it into some kind of | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
context. Labour has to start to deal with things. The Council house | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
freezing, that means there's a whole host of issues which are not being | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
dealt with. Cots are still being implemented. --, is. Kezia Dugdale | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
Has stated how much money is being spent. It is almost half of council | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
tax in Scotland being going to servicing the debt, rather than | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
paying it off. If we are going to have a campaign with the S NP, part | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
of that is pressing strongly for the debt to be dropped. Public services | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
are being threatened. Your union, will it be backing Labour in the | :43:16. | :43:24. | |
Scottish election in a? 100%. I will be saying that a little later on in | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
my speech here. Of course, we will work with the S NP Government. That | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
is Iraq thing to do far members. -- SNP. Many members of them voted for | :43:37. | :43:45. | |
the SNP. We will do all we can to help Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy | :43:46. | :43:56. | |
Corbyn. Why are you backing Labour when you have said that over 60% of | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
your members voted SNP at the last general election in Scotland? Why | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
don't you back then or do what you did in the independence referendum | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
and sit on the Our union is affiliated with the Labour Party. | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
That is all our members within Britain. That is the position and | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
until that position changes, within our rules, we are bound to Labour | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
and we are not bound to support any other political party. That is the | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
way it should be. It was the trade unions that created and gave birth | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
to the Labour Party. Remember, at one point of her story in Scotland, | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
80% of Unite members would vote Labour. Labour have got to do | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
something about it. It makes them never to look like Mount Everest. | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
The challenge they face. We will be supporting Jeromy and Kezia because | :44:59. | :45:12. | |
they offer something different. Unite members are coming back to | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
Labour and away from the S NP. Another poll it looks increasingly | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
likely that we may have this year is a referendum on the European Union. | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
What is your view on that? Are you for staying in the European Union | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
are you leading to what the cup campaign? We are united solidly as a | :45:29. | :45:40. | |
pro-European Union. We were slightly concerned when the Prime Minister | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
started to talk about renegotiating, because they knew he was looking to | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
take away more rights from British workers and we are against that. We | :45:52. | :46:02. | |
called for the Prime Minister to stop playing stupid games. We don't | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
want to take away more rights. It looks as if the Prime Minister has | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
seen common sense and has moved away from that. Of course, he was forced | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
into a corner by the right wing Tory MPs and in need by Ukip. He seems to | :46:14. | :46:21. | |
have moved away from that and all of our manufacturing companies that we | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
deal with believe we should stay in Europe. It is pretty likely that | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
Unite, along with most of the British trade union movement will be | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
supporting staying in Europe. On nuclear weapons, I know you are | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
concerned that there were suggestions that Labour might make | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
some kind of decision on the policy regarding balloting, that may | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
exclude the trade union involvement. Are you satisfied to have been given | :46:52. | :47:03. | |
assurances... Go on. Yes. I am completely satisfied. It has been | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
clarified for is what the process is. It will be a comprehensive | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
review of the sector, not just the nucleoside but conventional offence | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
as well. We think that is the right thing to do. The only political | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
party that is doing it. It is a good thing. The media of course will | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
watch to obsess about Trident because they see it as a division | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
within Labour. The truth is that the review will take place and, what is | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
absolutely critical for Unite is, that we are prone jobs and | :47:36. | :47:45. | |
pro-community. That will be a priority, that will be confirmed to | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
them. Everyone in Scotland can rest easy in their beds, as indeed can | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
defence workers... You say they can rest easy in their beds, but | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
presumably you are not exactly delighted that the two largest | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
parties in Scotland will be going into the May elections, Labour and | :48:07. | :48:15. | |
the SNP, where, in effect, they both have policies on nuclear | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
disarmament... I don't think that is the Labour Party... Well, they have | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
decided they are against renewing Trident. Know, if you really policy | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
carefully, you'll see that is a very queer caveat about guarantees -- | :48:33. | :48:42. | |
clear. Given to protect jobs and immunities. This is important. Only | :48:43. | :48:51. | |
this time in years, think you have a leader of a political party in | :48:52. | :48:53. | |
Jeremy Corbyn who is serious about wanting to discuss diversification. | :48:54. | :49:02. | |
We have been looking for that for a long, long time. We are engaged in a | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
number of initiatives and no one has ever taking it seriously. We see | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
what is happening with the defence review as something that is | :49:11. | :49:12. | |
positive. Our members can rest assured that, irrespective of who | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
the Labour leader on the Prime Minister is, we will defend their | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
jobs and their communities. Thank you for joining us this morning. | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
Education wasn't the first career option of Professor Anton Muscatelli | :49:25. | :49:26. | |
- his childhood ambition was to be an astronaut. | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
When that didn't work out, he became an economist and moved | :49:30. | :49:31. | |
from being a trainee in a bank to a one-year university lectureship. | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
He must have done something right because he's now been Principal | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
and Vice Chancellor of the University of Glasgow | :49:38. | :49:39. | |
He's also been a consultant to the World Bank and the European | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
Commission, a member of the Panel of Economic Advisers | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
of the Secretary of State for Scotland and an adviser | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
to the House of Commons Treasury Select Committee - | :49:52. | :49:53. | |
in addition to serving as chairman for the Calman Commission. | :49:54. | :49:55. | |
Professor Muscatelli joins me now in the studio. | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
You could have been doing your first spacewalk this week. It would have | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
been great, but I am afraid I had to go for my second option. You have | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
produced this report on the economic impact at Glasgow University. | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
Astonishingly, you found it is very positive. Give us a 32nd gist of | :50:14. | :50:23. | |
what you think it is important. As I said in an interview to Holyrood | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
magazine, we have a huge economic impact as an organisation. 1.5 | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
billion of Scottish output, we are responsible for up to 15,000 jobs. | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
Not just in Glasgow, but around the country, the Highlands, the Borders. | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
600 jobs in Edinburgh which we impact on. We are also about to | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
embark and unusually exciting expansion of our campus. About 1 | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
billion spent over the next ten years, three quarters of which which | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
will be on capital facilities, which will generate another 2500 jobs and | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
another 30 million of gross value added for the Scottish economy. We | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
are a big player in innovation and in skills and innovation. -- skills | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
and education. The world of universities is becoming ever more | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
competitive. You are not just against the fact that universities | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
in England have fees, but also American universities which have | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
huge endowments and the sort of things English universities would | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
find unimaginable. You completely relaxed about the fee situation in | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
England? Yes, because we are a globally competitive university. We | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
are one of two or three in Scotland that are in the global top 100. We | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
have seen demand for our courses grow, not only in Scotland, but from | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
the rest of the UK and internationally. We have grown our | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
international numbers in Glasgow by between 80 and 90% in the last five | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
years. The other thing about universities in America... There has | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
been talk for 30 years in Scotland about universities becoming engines | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
of economic growth, spin off companies and the rest of it. The | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
model was always Stanford in California and its connection with | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
silicon valley. I'm sure you could tell me lots of things that Glasgow | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
and other universities have done that have led to businesses, but hit | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
it has never quite happened in the way it has in America. Your macro I | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
would contest that. If you look at our own performance in terms of spin | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
outs, in terms of jobs over the last few years, which year by year are | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
still producing up to ?240 million of output for the Scottish economy. | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
If you look at Scottish universities, they are indeed places | :52:35. | :52:45. | |
for. We could do better, joining up much better the whole of the | :52:46. | :52:47. | |
innovation landscape. That is something we are on the case to | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
doing with our partner universities, with government, with other | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
agencies. We have to continue to improve because other competitors in | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
the US are continuing to up their game. You played quite a role in the | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
devolution business. You work adviser to the common commission -- | :53:07. | :53:22. | |
Calman Commission. Are you concerned about this? I am very concerned. As | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
I have said in the press quite a bit over the last few months, the fiscal | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
framework is as if not more important than the bill itself, | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
because it will set the physical parameters around which Scottish | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
Government in future will have to decide our options. As I pointed | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
out, if we choose the wrong formula for adjusting the block grant after | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
the settlement, the Scottish parliament could lose up to 7 | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
billion over ten years if the wrong formula is used. I intervene to | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
support a per capita index, a way of trying to protect Scotland from | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
those demographic risks. The fear is, is it, that, should, for | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
example, we changed tack tax rates -- tax rates appear, if it grows | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
slower than it does in the rest of the UK, Scotland could lose out? The | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
fear is this. Even if our tax base grows at the same rate as the rest | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
of the UK, if we choose the wrong formula, we could still lose because | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
of the growth in population in the south-east of England. The way the | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
Smith Commission framed the agreement is that it said Barnett is | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
central to the new Scotland act. There should be no detriment. If we | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
were to choose the per capita method, we could end up losing | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
hundreds of millions of pounds a year. The problem is, this phrase, | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
no detriment, is itself a tremendously ambiguous, isn't it? I | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
can imagine some people would say, well, if the East of England | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
managers to get lots more people wanting to go and stay there than in | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
Scotland, well, tough. The Scottish woman should implement policies that | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
mean people want to live in Scotland. We can't be expected to | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
pay for that. The UK is a very peculiar country in the European | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
context because London and the south-east are such a magnet for | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
population, and because the Scottish Government arguably does not have | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
any tools at its disposable to try to offset that. It still creates the | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
right incentive. It does mean that we have to keep up our tax base | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
growth within those parameters. It is actually, I think, a good | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
compromise and fair to Scotland and the rest of the UK. The finance | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
secretary, John Swinney, has threatened not to approve the fiscal | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
framework and, in effect, have said no to further devolution. Unless he | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
gets what he wants out of it. What he thinks is fair. Do you think that | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
is a realistic option for the Scottish Parliament, given that the | :56:04. | :56:10. | |
SNP's opponents would say, hang on, the SNP are refusing Morfa Scotland? | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
It is difficult, but you cannot accept it at any price -- additional | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
powers at any price. Over the next ten years, you might lose 7 billion | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
of that, it is not a great deal because it was was Scotland to make | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
choices which are not in its economic interest. Rather famously | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
and controversially, during the referendum campaign, you wrote a | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
piece in the Financial Times arguing for currency. Do you think that is | :56:39. | :56:47. | |
still a viable option, should there be in the referendum campaign? I | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
think it is. If you remember, I argued it from the point of view | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
also from the rest of the UK's point of view. Volumes of trade between | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are so vast that it | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
would have been hugely destructive to break that currency union. I also | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
pointed out it was not the only option. There were a range of | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
options and all have advantages and disadvantages. There have been | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
mutterings from people in the yes campaign to the fact that given | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
everyone else in Britain said, no, you can't have that, it wasn't the | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
best idea to be trying to convince people to vote for independence. | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
There seems to have been not very much discussion about practical | :57:29. | :57:36. | |
alternatives. Obviously, I cannot comment on these argument is, I was | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
making the argument of what would have been in the interest | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
economically... What is your favourite alternative to that? The | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
most immediate would have been a Scottish currency pegged in some way | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
to UK pound to try to avoid major currency fluctuations. That was the | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
heart of that original discussion. Now, given that oil prices have | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
collapsed, where would you go into that model now, you think Scotland | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
can borrow at reasonable rates? Since the Euro crisis, the idea that | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
you can just borrow at the same rate as your quietening currency has gone | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
out the window. Small countries do this all the time. If you look at | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
the Baltic economies, the Scandinavian economies, that is not | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
an issue. The debate has to go beyond one element, which is the | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
currency. Thank you very much indeed. | :58:29. | :58:30. | |
The latest Friends of the Earth survey has revealed that | :58:31. | :58:32. | |
St John's Road in Edinburgh is Scotland's most polluted. | :58:33. | :58:34. | |
It's closley followed by Glasgow's Hope Street. | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
The relationship between car emissions and ambient air quality | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
is a fundamental issue with vehicles contributing significantly | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
to pollution in our towns and cities. | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
So testing those emissions under real conditions is critical element | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
in monitoring and controlling pollution. | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
Against this backdrop, there's concern that a key European | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
vote on testing roadside emissions - due to take place this week - | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
Everyone is used to the site of cars on our roads. They are a vital part | :58:57. | :59:12. | |
of everyday life. But at what cost? The fumes which come out of vehicle | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
exhaust pipes play a big role in the rise of air pollution, a problem | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
which is linked with thousands of deaths in Scotland each year. This | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
is St John's Road in Edinburgh, it is like many other streets across | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
Scotland. There are businesses here and people live here. But it has | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
also been given the unfortunate title of Scotland's most polluted | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
road. So, what do the people who live and work you make of that? I | :59:39. | :59:49. | |
was smoking, I was going out every week and because of the air | :59:50. | :00:02. | |
pollution, I never got down to zero. Age doesn't affect me at all. I go | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
outside for fresh air, but you can't get fresh air. The claim that St | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
John's Road is Scotland's most polluted street is made by the | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
environmental group Friends of the Earth Scotland. It is based on | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
figures gathered by monitoring stations like this one. On the day | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
we filmed here, pollution levels were described as low, but Friends | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
of the Earth say that, on average, legal limit in air quality are being | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
breached. If you are breathing in air pollution day in day out, you | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
are more likely to have a stroke, a heart attack. If you are asthmatic, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
you might find your symptoms worsened. Air pollution causes 2000 | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
early deaths in Scotland every year. It is a serious public health crisis | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
and tackling it should be top priority for the Scottish | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Government. The annual average European legal limit for the | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
pollutant nitrogen dioxide is set at 40 micrograms per cubic metre. New | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
research from Friends of the Earth say the level on St John's Road in | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
2015 was 65 micrograms. Elsewhere, the nitrogen dioxide level on Hope | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
Street in Glasgow was 60 micrograms. The figure for Dundee's Seagate was | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
50. What is being done about it? Two months ago, the Scottish Government | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
set a target to make Scotland's at the best in Europe. Ministers want | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
councils to play their part, but councils say, to do that, they need | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
more cash. Is being made very clear to the civil servants and the | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Scottish Government that we are talking about a strategy in terms of | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
low emissions. As local government, we need those resources. We are | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
making cuts this year and therefore we need resources. If you want us to | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
work in partnership with you, we need the resources to be able to | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
implement that low emission strategy. The pressure is mounting. | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
The revelation that the car-maker faults wagon -- Volkswagen fitted | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
emission deceiving devices to its cars. A vote on the issue, due to | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
take this place -- take place this week has been postponed, as | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
politicians decide whether to make those limits even tougher. For | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
residents living in congested cities like Edinburgh, that means further | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
delay. The local council here says 97% of its streets actually pass at | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
quality tests and it is working on the rest. Assurances like that have | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
not persuaded campaigners, who argue that air pollution is now at the | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
heart of a major health crisis. I'm joined in our London | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
studio by Alan Andrews, who is an air quality lawyer for | :02:44. | :02:45. | |
the ClientEarth environmental group. ClientEarth was involved in a legal | :02:46. | :02:59. | |
case against the British government over air quality. There has been | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
talk of a legal case against the Scottish comment. I'm not clear | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
whether that is just an idea whether this is something you do intend to | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
do. ClientEarth fought a five-year legal battle against the UK | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Government over illegal levels of air pollution, but the Scottish | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
Government, the Scottish ministers, are responsible for protecting | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
Scottish people from air pollution. They could find themselves in the | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
firing line in the future if other organisations like ClientEarth | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
decided to take action. For the moment, ClientEarth is very much | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
focused on the UK Government. We are pushing for a new air quality plan | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
which will tackle pollution from dirty diesel vehicles as soon as | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
possible. You have no present intention of taking a legal case | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
against the Scottish Government. Our present intention is to focus on the | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
UK Government, but that case will improve Scotland, the supreme court | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
order covered Glasgow because pollution in Glasgow is at illegal | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
levels and the plans to achieve legal limits were not adequate. The | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
UK and Scotland is very much in our sights. What is a government or | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
local authority supposed to do? They seem to be particular streets, Hope | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
Street in Glasgow, there are a lot of bosses. Tall buildings either | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
side. What are they supposed to do to ameliorate this? You mentioned | :04:22. | :04:42. | |
buses, the also taxis, vans, and diesel cars. We need to ban diesel | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
vehicles from the road unless they meet the new emission standards on | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
the roads. You can imagine a lot of people saying, "Hang on a minute, | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
are you saying we need to stop using buses? " No, we need to see cleaner | :04:59. | :05:07. | |
vehicles on the roads. We need to see a will emission buses on the | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
roads. That'll require a major investment. We need to see money | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
invested and given to local authorities so they can have the | :05:17. | :05:18. | |
tools in front of them to this problem. How significant a player | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
our cars that households use in this converged to buses and trucks Lewes | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
some local authorities have been accused of not doing roadside | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
emissions testing. It is now part of MOT for cars. We should now have to | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
do that. LOSS OF SOUND | :05:42. | :05:51. | |
Diesel cars -- diesel cars are a massive part of this. We do need to | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
take action against diesel cars. That is what we need to be looking | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
at. Parking rights schemes and major investment in public transport, so | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
people have a realistic alternative to driving the dirty diesel car into | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
the town centre, where we know it does much damage to humans. Does | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
this connects to the Volkswagen scandal? Because obviously we have | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
been told some whoppers about the actual emissions about nitrous oxide | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
from diesel cars. I'm not clear whether these hotspots, if you like, | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
of bad emissions across Britain, whether that has anything to do with | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
cars giving off more nitrous oxides than the manufacturers say they are | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
or whether there are just too many cars and buses on the roads. The | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
Volkswagen scandal is very relevant year. The levels on a mission | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
pollution, we are seeing in these hot spots from diesel cars and | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
buses, the Volkswagen scandal shoulders that diesel emissions are | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
far higher than the legal requirement. -- showed eyes. What we | :07:02. | :07:12. | |
need to see is action at the EU level to make sure that EU | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
regulations are fit for purpose and directly delivering real world | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
emission cuts and that they are not breathing in this for years to come | :07:22. | :07:22. | |
thank you. Well, joining me is the MEP | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
Alyn Smith, who's in our Hyde, Gordon. You are tightening up | :07:31. | :07:49. | |
nitrous oxides in Europe and how they are outlined in documents. Any | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
documents they have produced, they seem to be allowed to exceed the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
limits that haven't been introduced yet. This is my letter that has been | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
called in as part of the scandal, I am also involved, not just laid a | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
legislator but also as a consumer. I am hopping mad about it. When I got | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
my car, I did look at diesel emission levels, and I was told that | :08:12. | :08:22. | |
they had improved and I was safe to buy one. We are actively misled as | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
consumers by industry. The proposal we had was not actually contingent | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
to the Volkswagen scandal, it actually started much earlier. We | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
need to tighten up emission scandals and we needed to tighten up how we | :08:36. | :08:44. | |
test. What was the result was a pretty toothless package. That is | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
why we responded and was restored by only a month, because they were | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
thought they were going to lose it. We have been on a systematic | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
industrial scale, misled by industry that we trusted on a long-term | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
basis. Just a nice proposed changes, you call them mealy-mouthed, an EU | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
rules, the car manufacturers will be allowed to exceed these levels, the | :09:11. | :09:19. | |
new maximum levels. By 110%. That is why I said it was not good enough of | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
it for purpose. What power of the European Parliament have, can you | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
just say no and that is it? Yes, we are the legislators. It is not law | :09:32. | :09:40. | |
unless they say it is long. What ClientEarth has been referring to is | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
how these emissions levels were achievable. We have seen a lot of | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
failure as to what we think we should be getting a new way of | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
emission testing in our atmosphere, and that is not adding up and | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
aligned with what industry has told us. We have seen a massive | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
discrepancy in that. What is even more significant is that it was | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
discovered by the Scottish, British, German, European authorities. It was | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
discovered by an American authorities. It is the US Federal | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
levels was not a different case about this. There will be huge | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
ramifications of this going forward. We have been actively misled by a | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
major, major industry. That is why we are having the abortion problem | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
that we are having. Is it your suspicion that this is scandal | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
Michael Fuller? -- pollution problems. Is your suspicion that | :10:32. | :10:45. | |
this goes wider than Volkswagen? It is so fundamental that this calls | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
into order all the numbers that we have approving. In 2004, I approved | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
the current emissions levels because we were led to believe that they | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
were achievable. We were allegedly decided by the industry who know | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
what better than the legislator do. It is the problem that we have been | :11:03. | :11:13. | |
less said by a great chunk of automotive companies. -- misled. The | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
European Parliament decided in November that we will be setting up | :11:17. | :11:25. | |
a enquiry. This will set up how we do the testing and measure the | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
standard. We have to move to a new testing regime, it is ridiculous | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
that we haven't. This is a huge global scandal. Again, just explain | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
to people have not been following this too closely, when you say real | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
world, that is different from last testing. You can do at testing and | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
it looks fine but when you taken out of the street, you get different | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
numbers. It is exactly that. It is down to the extent of which | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
computers actually run cars on their software. It is much less mechanical | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
and more about computers. These cars have a software that identifies when | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
a car is only rolling road. The thing that you have or MOT centre | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
will demonstrate it is on a rolling road. Otherwise, the cavalry | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
reacting as if the car was having some kind of scared. -- skid. That | :12:15. | :12:24. | |
changes the power output of the car to a more emissions efficient way of | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
doing it. It was woefully misleading. To convey a much bigger | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
issue, good and? I'm Tuesday and what you think of this. We in Europe | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
have gone for diesel cars in the way that consumers in America have not | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
done so to the same extent. If it turns out that these figures are | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
wrong, one of the reasons we went from diesel cars right across Europe | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
is because they were supposed to be fuel-efficient and the emissions | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
were supposed low. Good people industry, do you think, the change? | :12:57. | :13:06. | |
The whole industry has to change. It has to change full stop. I bought my | :13:07. | :13:18. | |
car on the basis that I thought it was safer in terms of emissions than | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
it is. A lot of people have been misled. Not least, in terms of tax. | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
But at the different tax regimes we have entered is a pedal buses | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
diesel. A lot of the market signals -- petrol versus diesel. Full a lot | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
of the figures have been different to what we were told. We have been | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
woefully misled. Emission standards away with them they have been. This | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
is not just a Scottish thing. I am sorry to bring you to a halt but we | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
have ran out of time. We will leave you to go stir woefully actual tax | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
year. | :13:55. | :13:57. |