17/01/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


17/01/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Was former London Mayor Ken Livingstone booted off

:00:39.:00:43.

Or, as Mr Livingstone claims, did he step down

:00:44.:00:46.

because he is at one on all defence matters with this lady,

:00:47.:00:48.

Labour's new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.

:00:49.:00:50.

Like Mr Livingstone she's not a fan of Britain's

:00:51.:00:54.

David Cameron has a plan to deliver some rabbits from the hat in his

:00:55.:01:08.

renegotiation with Brussels. Another campaign has entered the fray on his

:01:09.:01:13.

site, led by former Euro Tory sceptic. As it hots up, we will be

:01:14.:01:19.

talking to a man who wants to be out, Nigel Farage and a man who

:01:20.:01:24.

wants to stay in, Ken Clarke. Donald Trump and his former charm, Alex

:01:25.:01:32.

Salmond, have been expending the week exchanging pleasantries. We'll

:01:33.:01:35.

We'll be talking to the former First Minister of Scotland.

:01:36.:01:39.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotand:

:01:40.:01:45.

What will it mean to communities in the capital?

:01:46.:01:53.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:54.:01:55.

I won't have a nasty word said against them.

:01:56.:01:59.

Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting

:02:00.:02:01.

So first today let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:02.:02:12.

who gave a wide-ranging interview on the Marr show a little earlier.

:02:13.:02:15.

My question, with respect, was about sympathy action

:02:16.:02:17.

and whether you would remove that legislation.

:02:18.:02:19.

Sympathy action is legal in most other countries and I think it

:02:20.:02:22.

should also be legal here. But remember this...

:02:23.:02:23.

So you would repeal those Tory laws?

:02:24.:02:25.

Yes, of course. Nobody willingly goes on strike.

:02:26.:02:27.

They go on strike as an ultimate weapon.

:02:28.:02:29.

The number of strikes is actually very small.

:02:30.:02:31.

It's an ultimate weapon that is used.

:02:32.:02:33.

Anyone that is going on strike is making an enormous sacrifice.

:02:34.:02:35.

They don't get paid, they suffer a great deal as a result

:02:36.:02:38.

of it, so let's look at the causes of people being upset rather

:02:39.:02:42.

A policy packed interview with Andrew Marr on the Falklands,

:02:43.:02:59.

Islamic State, secondary striking, even on the idea maybe we could keep

:03:00.:03:04.

Trident but not any missile warheads on the missiles. I felt nostalgic. I

:03:05.:03:12.

was back to a teenager in the 1980s, I remember these arguments in the

:03:13.:03:17.

1980s and Michael foot put them in the manifesto for the 1983 election.

:03:18.:03:23.

He was robust on the Falkland Islands. He was. The point for

:03:24.:03:32.

Jeremy Corbyn is he has a mandate from the party to put forward these

:03:33.:03:37.

arguments. He had a 60% vote and it is clear what he thinks of nuclear

:03:38.:03:43.

weapons. He has been a member of CND since 1966. The challenge for Jeremy

:03:44.:03:48.

Corbyn is to put forward ideas in a way that appeals beyond new members

:03:49.:03:52.

of the Labour Party to the electorate as a whole who have

:03:53.:03:58.

concerns about security of the nation, for example, possibly having

:03:59.:04:02.

successor submarines of the Trident system without nuclear weapons. That

:04:03.:04:06.

is the Japanese system, they talk in Japan how they have what is known as

:04:07.:04:12.

the bomb in the basement. They are a non-declared nuclear state but could

:04:13.:04:15.

arm themselves with nuclear weapons within minutes if needed. That is

:04:16.:04:19.

what he is talking about. Sounds good in the leg party but he needs

:04:20.:04:23.

to sell it to the country as a whole. It is clear a lot of what

:04:24.:04:30.

Jeremy Corbyn says has the support of the grassroots, particularly the

:04:31.:04:33.

new ones who have joined the party. It is clear a lot of this does not

:04:34.:04:37.

have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. That is

:04:38.:04:41.

the constant problem yet to be squared. I cannot see a way it will

:04:42.:04:47.

be squared. I do not think many Labour MPs can either. His problem

:04:48.:04:54.

is admirable, it is he is determined not to remove himself from things

:04:55.:04:58.

said in the past. On the Falklands he is consistent with what he said

:04:59.:05:04.

in 2013, when it did not matter, and how he is now repeating those views.

:05:05.:05:09.

The problem is now Jeremy Corbyn matters and if you look at the

:05:10.:05:13.

Falklands, the last time there was a vote of those on the Falkland

:05:14.:05:18.

Islands, only three voted to change the system of administration, so he

:05:19.:05:21.

is out of step with people living there. He sets out his left-wing

:05:22.:05:28.

stall on these issues. Bit by bit, he is taking his time, doing it

:05:29.:05:34.

astutely. He is taking the lead party in his direction, part of the

:05:35.:05:37.

purpose I would suggest of the interview will stop no one could

:05:38.:05:47.

question that. If you go into a general election with a leader who

:05:48.:05:51.

says something like, let's have the return of secondary picketing, and

:05:52.:05:57.

that is not the worst idea in the manifesto, also talking about

:05:58.:06:01.

renewing the vanguard submarines without warheads and I think he

:06:02.:06:05.

floated the idea of reasonable accommodation with Argentina on the

:06:06.:06:08.

Falklands, he would go to the election knowing you have a white,

:06:09.:06:13.

working-class base, which is already flirting with Ukip. How low can

:06:14.:06:19.

Labour Singh? Technically it is impossible to get rid of him but

:06:20.:06:23.

maybe politics is like water and finds a way to go around obstacles.

:06:24.:06:28.

And if his ideas turn out to be popular? I think they will be

:06:29.:06:33.

popular with the membership at every general election since 1983 would

:06:34.:06:39.

suggest to us these ideas are outside the mainstream. Jeremy

:06:40.:06:43.

Corbyn says there is a new world out there, I tapped into that in the

:06:44.:06:46.

campaign, with thousands packing up meetings. We have the electoral test

:06:47.:06:51.

in May, let's see how the ideas go down outside the party. Should

:06:52.:06:59.

written keep its nuclear deterrent? -- Great Britain.

:07:00.:07:02.

Jeremy Corbyn doesn't think so and neither

:07:03.:07:04.

does his new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry,

:07:05.:07:06.

who we'll be talking to in just a minute.

:07:07.:07:08.

But first here's Adam on a multi-billion-pound question.

:07:09.:07:11.

The Imperial War Museum is showing the work of artist Peter Kennard,

:07:12.:07:16.

the creator of some of the starkest images of the campaign

:07:17.:07:19.

This was in 1980, this is when cruise missiles were coming

:07:20.:07:32.

to Britain and the idea was they were going to circulate

:07:33.:07:34.

It's coming back into fashion because some time this year

:07:35.:07:38.

the Government is expected to hold a Parliamentary vote

:07:39.:07:42.

on whether to build a new generation of submarines to carry

:07:43.:07:45.

The issue is dogging Labour, as Jeremy Corbyn made his first

:07:46.:07:52.

speech of the year at the Fabian's campaign group conference.

:07:53.:07:54.

I thank you very much for inviting me here today.

:07:55.:07:57.

Jeremy Corbyn's speech focused on energy, Europe, rail prices...

:07:58.:08:03.

no mention of Trident, which he has campaigned

:08:04.:08:06.

The issue is - not all of his MPs agree with him.

:08:07.:08:12.

My view at the moment is that the case in favour

:08:13.:08:15.

of retaining is stronger than the case against,

:08:16.:08:18.

but I think it's important we review this and look at all the options.

:08:19.:08:21.

I'm in favour of keeping our nuclear deterrent.

:08:22.:08:23.

I think it's important for keeping our country safe.

:08:24.:08:25.

It's Labour Party policy, I hope it will stay that way.

:08:26.:08:28.

Have you had an argument with Jeremy about it yet?

:08:29.:08:30.

Definitely arguing with Jeremy this week, the boss of the GMB union,

:08:31.:08:34.

who says building new subs will safeguard thousands of jobs

:08:35.:08:37.

in places like Barrow, where they're built.

:08:38.:08:41.

If anybody thinks that unions like the GMB are going to go quietly

:08:42.:08:45.

into the night while tens of thousands of our members' jobs

:08:46.:08:49.

are literally swaneed away by rhetoric, then they have

:08:50.:08:51.

Meet the woman who's got to reconcile the two tribes,

:08:52.:08:59.

the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, a critic

:09:00.:09:01.

of Trident who's doing the party's defence review.

:09:02.:09:06.

But it's turning into a row about how Labour makes policy.

:09:07.:09:10.

On one side, the people who feel the decision should be made by

:09:11.:09:13.

We have a national policy forum, we have a process where the papers

:09:14.:09:20.

go to our conference and are voted on.

:09:21.:09:24.

They involve trade unionists, they involve affiliated

:09:25.:09:28.

John Landsman, who campaigns for a bigger role for party

:09:29.:09:35.

activists and founded the Corbynite group Momentum,

:09:36.:09:37.

I'm not convinced the Government has to have a vote at all,

:09:38.:09:44.

but if it decides to have a vote we obviously need to have taken some

:09:45.:09:48.

soundings among party members and affiliates about what they think

:09:49.:09:50.

So, Labour Party policy on Trident could change by the summer?

:09:51.:09:55.

We will have had some process to consider our policy

:09:56.:09:58.

before the summer, yes, obviously, we have to.

:09:59.:10:03.

So Labour Party policy, when it comes to a vote,

:10:04.:10:06.

by the summer could be voting against the renewal of Trident?

:10:07.:10:11.

Look, I know that you're trying to get me to say very briefly,

:10:12.:10:16.

you know, something very quick about how policy is made

:10:17.:10:20.

in our party, the trouble is it's quite a complex process.

:10:21.:10:24.

Policy is ultimately decided by party conference

:10:25.:10:27.

in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party but if we have to take quicker

:10:28.:10:30.

decisions, we have to do it by other methods.

:10:31.:10:40.

That might drive some Labour people into meltdown.

:10:41.:10:43.

It could be war, not just over whether Labour supports the renewal

:10:44.:10:46.

of Trident, but also who gets to make the decision.

:10:47.:10:53.

And with me now, the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.

:10:54.:10:57.

Welcome. Did you drop Ken Livingstone from the defence review?

:10:58.:11:09.

No, it was going to be my review and when I spoke to Jeremy about it I

:11:10.:11:13.

said it was an honour to take an extraordinary job, to be able to

:11:14.:11:16.

shadow a department where people are prepared to put their lives on the

:11:17.:11:21.

line. Was he part of the defence review already? I said I would lead

:11:22.:11:26.

the review and it will be my review, and it will feed into international

:11:27.:11:32.

policy commission, co-chaired by Ken Livingstone, which will feed into

:11:33.:11:41.

the national policy forum which will then feed into party conference. Mr

:11:42.:11:43.

Livingstone said on defence matters he had lunch with you and you agree

:11:44.:11:46.

on everything on the defence side and so voluntarily stepped aside, is

:11:47.:11:51.

that true? I am a big fan of Ken Livingstone, that is not a secret, I

:11:52.:11:56.

am also against Trident. I come in as a sceptic and also with the

:11:57.:12:01.

ambition to listen to what people say, to be not afraid to ask

:12:02.:12:06.

difficult questions and to come to a view on policy on the basis of

:12:07.:12:13.

evidence. Did he step aside because you broadly agreed on defence

:12:14.:12:17.

matters? Jeremy Corbyn put me in charge of the review and that is

:12:18.:12:21.

what happened. Did Mr Livingstone step aside as he said? He is chair

:12:22.:12:26.

of the commission I will be feeding my review into. I understand. Do you

:12:27.:12:31.

agree on everything when it comes to defence? I agree with a lot Ken

:12:32.:12:36.

Livingstone says but I do not agree we should pull out of Nato and I

:12:37.:12:41.

will not review this on the basis of us changing any international

:12:42.:12:46.

agreements or organisations we are signed up to. The review will take

:12:47.:12:51.

place within the context of our continued membership of Nato? That

:12:52.:12:55.

is right. On Trident? Ken Livingstone is against renewing

:12:56.:13:01.

Trident. That has been your position. I think the days of

:13:02.:13:06.

unilateral, multilateral, all of this sort of thing is from the

:13:07.:13:11.

1980s. We should look at what are the 21st-century threats to Britain

:13:12.:13:15.

and how should we best address them? It seems that is the best way to do

:13:16.:13:19.

it, look at the threats and what is the best way of addressing that.

:13:20.:13:24.

What I am more than anything is a moderniser. You voted against

:13:25.:13:31.

renewal of Trident in 2007. Do you know what, in the 80s, I was in

:13:32.:13:36.

favour of Trident because there were two macro sides, life was different,

:13:37.:13:42.

but life has moved on since 2007. Certainly since the 1980s, and I

:13:43.:13:46.

think the time has come for us to have a debate about what the

:13:47.:13:50.

21st-century threats are, which includes whether or not it is the

:13:51.:13:56.

appropriate response. What would change your mind? What could you be

:13:57.:14:01.

told about Trident that would make you think we should keep it? Good

:14:02.:14:08.

days and want to go into it with an days and want to go into it with an

:14:09.:14:14.

open mind and look at evidence. You are against Trident? I am in favour

:14:15.:14:19.

of making policy on the basis of evidence put before me and I have

:14:20.:14:23.

had a large number of invitations to talk to people and pick their

:14:24.:14:27.

brains. I want to be able to do that and bring the party with me. Are you

:14:28.:14:34.

against drone strikes? No, I think in the future the role of drones is

:14:35.:14:42.

likely to increase, under the sea and for air strikes. When you were

:14:43.:14:49.

shadow Attorney General, did you question the legality under

:14:50.:14:53.

international law? This is quite difficult, because the advice I gave

:14:54.:14:56.

to the leaders... You have got that wrong. I was asking a question.

:14:57.:15:06.

Have you questioned their legality or not? There is a difference

:15:07.:15:13.

between their use and bare existence so therefore... I'm so sorry but

:15:14.:15:17.

it's legally privileged and I cannot talk about advice I gave to the

:15:18.:15:22.

leader. All right but you can talk to the electorate. Would you support

:15:23.:15:30.

the use of drone strikes? I would support the use of whatever means

:15:31.:15:33.

are necessary to keep the British people safe. Including drone

:15:34.:15:38.

strikes? Yes, within the confines of the law. Do you have an end date

:15:39.:15:44.

when you think you have got to have the review done by? No, I don't want

:15:45.:15:50.

the strategic review to be anything like the Tories' which was very

:15:51.:15:56.

short. They opened a website and only allowed people to put 200 words

:15:57.:16:00.

in and in my view didn't look at it properly so it will take as long as

:16:01.:16:08.

it takes. I have a lot to look at. I understand, we have a lot of ground

:16:09.:16:12.

to cover and we don't have a lot of time this morning. In the meantime

:16:13.:16:17.

it's almost certain there will be a major vote on Trident, which begins

:16:18.:16:20.

the real spending on the renewal some time in the spring. What will

:16:21.:16:26.

happen to Labour? Will you be whipped to vote in favour of current

:16:27.:16:31.

party policy, which is pro-Trident? Will you be encouraging to -- people

:16:32.:16:40.

to vote against it? The first question is, are they going to have

:16:41.:16:45.

a vote, are they going to have a vote in the spring, and what will

:16:46.:16:50.

the vote be? Will we have the Treasury and the MoD agreeing? If

:16:51.:16:58.

there is a main gate proposal, comes forward to the Commons, how will you

:16:59.:17:03.

vote? The rumour is they are not going to have anything more than

:17:04.:17:07.

another vote in principle on whether or not we should renew Trident.

:17:08.:17:12.

Pro-Trident people should be angry about that because we had a vote

:17:13.:17:16.

about that in 2007, what have they been doing all this time? Labour

:17:17.:17:22.

policy is to have a continual artsy deterrent but to have a review. We

:17:23.:17:26.

are in the process of having a review, we need to look at when the

:17:27.:17:37.

vote is, what it is about, then I will have a discussion with Jeremy

:17:38.:17:39.

and the Chief Whip and did -- decision will be made. Jeremy has

:17:40.:17:42.

said he wants macro to accommodate differences in views and I have said

:17:43.:17:46.

my review has got to be done in an atmosphere of trust and respect. So

:17:47.:17:52.

it will be a free vote. What do you say to those who say when it comes

:17:53.:17:55.

to the Trident part of the defence review that it is a sham, that you

:17:56.:18:01.

have replaced Maria Eagle who was pro-Trident. Your leader is a

:18:02.:18:06.

lifelong unilateral disarmament. The party grass roots is increasingly

:18:07.:18:11.

hostile to Trident, so the chances of this recommending anything other

:18:12.:18:16.

than don't renew Trident is pretty impossible. I will begin this review

:18:17.:18:20.

by looking at the threat to Britain because my overriding responsibility

:18:21.:18:27.

is to make sure it is in line with what keeps Britain safe. We will

:18:28.:18:33.

take it as the evidence takes us. That is how we will approach it.

:18:34.:18:38.

Jeremy has already said, he said in the last few days that it may be

:18:39.:18:42.

this won't be a binary decision, things are not must rarely black and

:18:43.:18:46.

white any more, we are not going to the 1980s. What do you make of this

:18:47.:18:52.

idea that he floated on the Andrew Marr Show this morning that we could

:18:53.:18:56.

maybe renew Trident but not put warheads on the missiles? The

:18:57.:19:01.

Japanese option, that is certainly one thing that needs to be looked

:19:02.:19:07.

at. What would be the point? I'm not saying this is what we are going to

:19:08.:19:11.

do, but the way that it works is that the Japanese have got the

:19:12.:19:16.

capability to build a nuclear bomb if they need to, but you can then

:19:17.:19:25.

use them in various delivery forms. That's a possibility, it is an

:19:26.:19:30.

option. So you put the eventual warheads onto Trident submarines?

:19:31.:19:37.

Trident missiles? I appreciate that you want me to speculate and I

:19:38.:19:41.

understand that. Your leader spoke about it this morning. I have said

:19:42.:19:49.

there are of options. When you file a ballistic missile at a country,

:19:50.:19:54.

every early warning ballistic missile system will assume that is

:19:55.:19:58.

an attack because ballistic missile is only carry nuclear weapons so we

:19:59.:20:03.

will risk retaliation for something that is not using nuclear weapons,

:20:04.:20:10.

isn't that very dangerous? You are welcome to take part in my review. I

:20:11.:20:17.

am a kind of busy on the day job. Do you think the party membership

:20:18.:20:23.

should determine Trident policy, not just be consulting on it, which I

:20:24.:20:27.

know you'll want to do, but should they determined in the end such

:20:28.:20:31.

important issue? Party conference will decide what our policy is. I

:20:32.:20:36.

would like to have a review that will have party members feeding into

:20:37.:20:40.

it, feeding into their views in a way we have not had before and I

:20:41.:20:46.

will encourage that. You weren't in the end have a vote among party

:20:47.:20:49.

members to determine your policy? Our rules are that party conference

:20:50.:20:56.

decides our policy. Do you think you will have your ducks in a row by the

:20:57.:21:04.

time of this year's party conference? If I can help the

:21:05.:21:10.

national policy Forum by doing an interim report, I will do so. What

:21:11.:21:15.

do you say to the trade union leaders who say you will put

:21:16.:21:18.

thousands of jobs at risk if you don't renew Trident? I say I will

:21:19.:21:24.

listen to what they say and I will look at whether there are other

:21:25.:21:29.

alternatives. I understand, and I fully respect the concerns that have

:21:30.:21:34.

been raised so we need to look at whether there are solutions to that.

:21:35.:21:39.

You have taken substantial donations from a law firm that support clients

:21:40.:21:44.

that took the British Army to court on what turned out to be deliberate

:21:45.:21:50.

and miscalculated lies, holy and entirely without merit, where the

:21:51.:21:55.

accusations against the army. Should you return that? What happened was

:21:56.:22:06.

that Lee Day seconded people to my office because when your shadow

:22:07.:22:09.

Attorney General you don't have any resources at all. You didn't get

:22:10.:22:19.

?14,500 in donations? No, so I got very good bright lawyers and I have

:22:20.:22:22.

returned all of them and they were very good and they helped us be a

:22:23.:22:29.

good opposition. So there is no money to return? There is no money

:22:30.:22:33.

to return and it was a pleasure to have them in my office, they were

:22:34.:22:38.

very helpful to the Labour Party and interned to the country. We were

:22:39.:22:42.

summarising legislation, helping with clauses, giving advice to the

:22:43.:22:49.

leaders' office. Unfortunately the Government will now even cut the

:22:50.:23:00.

money. Will you come back when your review is complete? Any time. We

:23:01.:23:04.

will hold you to that. Now to the European Union

:23:05.:23:06.

and Britain's membership of it. George Osborne appeared

:23:07.:23:08.

quietly confident this week about the Government's chances

:23:09.:23:10.

of impressing voters with the deal it gets from Brussels,

:23:11.:23:12.

and even the European President, Jean-Claude Junker, appeared more

:23:13.:23:14.

upbeat about the prospects Not good news for

:23:15.:23:16.

those who want out? But they'll be buoyed by one poll

:23:17.:23:19.

this morning that puts the "out" This morning there's news of another

:23:20.:23:24.

group on the pro-EU campaign trail. The question may be fairly simple

:23:25.:23:28.

but there are rather a lot of different campaigns

:23:29.:23:37.

trying to bend our ears. On the side of those

:23:38.:23:40.

who want us out of the EU, there's the Vote Leave campaign

:23:41.:23:43.

headed by Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott,

:23:44.:23:48.

who ran the successful They're also linked

:23:49.:23:50.

to Business For Britain, which has the support of a number

:23:51.:23:53.

of leading business figures, and to the groups Labour Leave

:23:54.:23:57.

and Conservatives For Britain, Also campaigning for Brexit

:23:58.:24:00.

is Leave.EU, which has links to Ukip and is funded by the Ukip donor

:24:01.:24:06.

Arron Banks. They're vying with the Vote Leave

:24:07.:24:10.

campaign to be the officially And to top it all, there is now Go,

:24:11.:24:13.

a new grass-roots group made up of MPs including Kate Hoey

:24:14.:24:27.

and David Davis which is designed to coordinate campaigning

:24:28.:24:29.

on the ground. On the other side, the main group

:24:30.:24:30.

is the Britain Stronger In Europe, headed by the former Marks

:24:31.:24:34.

Spencer's boss Sir Stuart Rose. Then there's Business

:24:35.:24:36.

For New Europe, led by Roland Rudd, Labour Yes, led by Alan Johnson,

:24:37.:24:39.

and now there's a new group set up by the Tory MP Nick Herbert,

:24:40.:24:43.

called Conservatives Even though some of the members

:24:44.:24:44.

are Eurosceptics, they say they will support David Cameron's

:24:45.:24:52.

renegotiation and will vote to remain inside the EU

:24:53.:24:54.

if he's successful. Expect a few leaflets

:24:55.:24:58.

through your door in the next And with us now is the Ukip

:24:59.:25:00.

leader, Nigel Farage. With even staunch Eurosceptic MPs

:25:01.:25:18.

like Nick Herbert campaigning to stay in, don't you worry the tide of

:25:19.:25:24.

opinion is moving away from you and tour was David Cameron? I would

:25:25.:25:29.

never regard Nick Herbert as a staunch Eurosceptic. He campaigned

:25:30.:25:37.

to keep the pound, he was paid to do it. He has never once advocated

:25:38.:25:48.

Britain should leave the EU so he is doing a job bolstering the Prime

:25:49.:25:52.

Minister. There was lots of speculation, will Boris Johnson back

:25:53.:25:57.

the outcome pain? What do you think? I don't know. Not Michael Gove, we

:25:58.:26:05.

know now. I suspect lots of senior politicians will put their careers

:26:06.:26:11.

before their conscience and back the Prime Minister. I am beginning to

:26:12.:26:17.

see this referendum as the people versus the politicians, it might not

:26:18.:26:22.

matter. Except your own side continues to be riven by

:26:23.:26:26.

factionalism. We have vote to leave, Leave.EU, and they seem to be

:26:27.:26:30.

spending more time attacking each other than the common enemy. You

:26:31.:26:36.

have these groups vying to be the official bumbler group. I've been

:26:37.:26:40.

trying to support both of the organisations, though I have to say

:26:41.:26:43.

when I listen to Dominic Cummings on Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I

:26:44.:26:47.

believe. Yes, and suddenly they are Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I

:26:48.:26:54.

talking about a two referendum strategy which I don't like the look

:26:55.:27:03.

of one little bit. Why not? The argue was, we can vote to come out

:27:04.:27:09.

and then Europe will panic and make us an offer which will be

:27:10.:27:12.

effectively associated membership and we could vote on that. We

:27:13.:27:17.

effectively have that now, we had that since the euro was created. Dan

:27:18.:27:21.

Harmon has criticised every government that has lost a

:27:22.:27:26.

referendum. After the interview I saw the other day I wasn't sure.

:27:27.:27:34.

There is now a third group called Go. It does lend itself to jokes

:27:35.:27:42.

about the Judaean people's struggle. The point about Go is that it is

:27:43.:27:49.

there to break the deadlock, and next Saturday there will be

:27:50.:27:55.

Conservatives, Labour, Ukip and DUP sharing a public platform. There's a

:27:56.:27:59.

big auditorium with 2000 people coming and we will start the ground

:28:00.:28:04.

campaign in earnest. Should Vote Leave and Leave.EU amalgamate? Of

:28:05.:28:12.

course. Leave.EU are brilliant at mass-marketing. Vote Leave are

:28:13.:28:15.

Westminster -based group of people with some fantastic links to the

:28:16.:28:20.

business community, some great academic back-up. They would be

:28:21.:28:25.

complimentary, not contradictory. Meanwhile, as you still struggle to

:28:26.:28:30.

get a united front, if I can put it like that, perhaps the United front

:28:31.:28:38.

of the Judaean people's struggle... I would suggest from the better

:28:39.:28:46.

together project, which proved so effective in the Scottish

:28:47.:28:54.

referendum, shouldn't you fear Project Fear? Even Project Fear has

:28:55.:29:09.

a problem because a Scottish minister said all of the big

:29:10.:29:17.

businesses would leave Britain, but we would maintain our manufacturing

:29:18.:29:23.

bases. Even though if we stay in there will be some uncertainty as

:29:24.:29:26.

the euro zone becomes more united and we are likely to be part of

:29:27.:29:31.

that, so you cannot be sure of the future, no one on your side can tell

:29:32.:29:36.

us if we come out what will our status beach? What will our

:29:37.:29:39.

relationship be? Because you have lots of differences. We have a whole

:29:40.:29:44.

range of options. There are countries all over the world with

:29:45.:29:47.

different relationships, the Swiss have bilateral relationships the

:29:48.:29:52.

Norwegians have a relationship with the economic area. We are the

:29:53.:29:56.

biggest trading partner the has in the world, trading at a vast trading

:29:57.:30:02.

deficit. We want a British deal based on trade, cooperation and

:30:03.:30:03.

nothing more. There is still the uncertainty as to

:30:04.:30:14.

whether you can deliver. Every German car manufacturer, every

:30:15.:30:17.

producer, will insist we do that deal as quickly as possible. You

:30:18.:30:23.

hold that but it is uncertain. Under the terms of the treaties, on day

:30:24.:30:32.

one nothing would change, we would have access to markets during the

:30:33.:30:35.

time we renegotiate the British deal. Do you feel the ground moving

:30:36.:30:41.

on to you as the forces of the British state, Alex Salmond felt the

:30:42.:30:45.

same with the Scottish referendum, it is a formidable force and you are

:30:46.:30:50.

up against it? In terms of our political class, yes, I think the

:30:51.:30:54.

chances of many people currently in senior positions in politics,

:30:55.:31:00.

perhaps they diminish, inevitably, but you cannot take away from

:31:01.:31:04.

ordinary folk scene such as Cologne and saying to themselves, in three

:31:05.:31:08.

years, all of these people will have EU passports and be able to come to

:31:09.:31:13.

Britain. This campaign will be the people against the politicians and

:31:14.:31:17.

the more the politicians clubbed together, perhaps more the people

:31:18.:31:20.

will choose to vote against them. In any possibility of a relationship

:31:21.:31:26.

with the EU out, will almost certainly involve continued free

:31:27.:31:29.

movement and these people may well still be able to come to this

:31:30.:31:34.

country under any deal you reach? We have free trade deals all over the

:31:35.:31:38.

world that don't involve the free movement of people, it is only in

:31:39.:31:46.

Europe we have the free -- pretence that we have to have free movement

:31:47.:31:51.

of people. I want to control our borders and have an Australian style

:31:52.:31:55.

points system where we can judge whether people will make a positive

:31:56.:31:58.

contribution to society and I cannot do that as a member of the EU. You

:31:59.:32:03.

have not had the best of times, since the election. It culminated in

:32:04.:32:16.

what you designated a car breakdown as an assassination attempt. Has

:32:17.:32:21.

that undermined, as the most famous person on the outcome paying, has it

:32:22.:32:25.

undermined your credibility? I do not think it does. To say we have

:32:26.:32:31.

had a tough time, it is interesting, Ukip has been written off by every

:32:32.:32:35.

commentator in Fleet Street but the latest poll had us at 17%. The most

:32:36.:32:45.

important issue, immigration, we are the most trusted party on 29% and we

:32:46.:32:50.

go into this year with the expectation of winning seats in

:32:51.:32:54.

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and playing a big role in this

:32:55.:32:55.

referendum. Let's talk now to former

:32:56.:32:57.

Conservative Chancellor, Are you in any doubt the Prime

:32:58.:33:10.

Minister is going to be the enthusiastic leader of the campaign

:33:11.:33:14.

to remain in the EU? I think you will, because all the news, although

:33:15.:33:20.

it is not really news, a lot of it is rumoured, is he will come back

:33:21.:33:25.

with a reasonable deal. He has already got the things he first

:33:26.:33:28.

talked about in the bag when he first announced he was going to have

:33:29.:33:33.

a referendum and seek reforms. He has added one or two more. Nobody

:33:34.:33:37.

knows the final deal but they are close to getting one and the debate

:33:38.:33:41.

is getting more serious and I think David will advocate staying in. He

:33:42.:33:48.

will put it, a reformed European union. Given this was the

:33:49.:33:52.

predictable outcome, is the referendum process, promoted by

:33:53.:33:58.

David Cameron, worth the candle? We shall see. You can see now, is it or

:33:59.:34:07.

not? Wait for the outcome, which will determine the effect of the

:34:08.:34:10.

referendum on British politics and the economy. All politicians of my

:34:11.:34:17.

generation did not think a referendum was a good way to run a

:34:18.:34:21.

modern, sophisticated country. You wish she had not done it? I do not

:34:22.:34:28.

think anybody thinks... I was in favour of calling a referendum.

:34:29.:34:33.

Margaret Thatcher denounced referendums in stronger terms than I

:34:34.:34:37.

have and they are a gamble and I do not think the Scottish one has

:34:38.:34:41.

resolved the Scottish independence issue. Let me come on to Scotland.

:34:42.:35:26.

It is complicated and sometimes frightening. Our nations are now

:35:27.:35:34.

ended on each other. We will be modern and independent state. --

:35:35.:35:39.

dependent state. It'll be more moderate everything in. It is said

:35:40.:35:45.

that Nigel Farage is a parody of a right wing nationalist, on both

:35:46.:35:50.

sides, people are inclined to say there will be calamity if we leave.

:35:51.:35:57.

There is huge uncertainty if we leave. I personally, strongly

:35:58.:36:03.

believe that my grandchildren will discover... I understand. We know

:36:04.:36:10.

you want to stay in so I want to ask you some questions about that. If we

:36:11.:36:13.

do want to remain, should our membership of the euro, at some

:36:14.:36:17.

stage, come back to the agenda? I don't think it will in my lifetime.

:36:18.:36:23.

Should it? The euro has got to be reformed. The crisis has still not

:36:24.:36:30.

been sorted. Should come back onto the British agenda? In your I am not

:36:31.:36:36.

going to start forecasting the future. I do believe that, if you

:36:37.:36:46.

have a single market, this is an a trade deal, if you have a single

:36:47.:36:50.

market, there is a single means of exchange. They made a mess of the

:36:51.:37:00.

euro, they did not run properly. We may find that if we do want the same

:37:01.:37:05.

currency, I can't tell. Do you worry? You're very pro-European. You

:37:06.:37:10.

can be critical of it but do you worry now that, any future, every

:37:11.:37:16.

vote to stay in, the future of the EU will very much we watch takes

:37:17.:37:22.

place inside the Eurozone? That there will be, on the periphery, a

:37:23.:37:27.

country club member? Does that worry It did when we started. There really

:37:28.:37:35.

was an issue that needed to be addressed. We are always there, I

:37:36.:37:40.

think. What we did not want is the decision of the British and one or

:37:41.:37:44.

two others who will never join any foreseeable future, not to join. The

:37:45.:37:49.

single currency was going to make a second-class citizens. The Eurozone

:37:50.:37:52.

group should not start deciding things that adversely affected us. I

:37:53.:38:03.

think it is nearly there. My understanding is, I am not directly

:38:04.:38:06.

involved but I have been to Brussels a bit, I think it is is the most

:38:07.:38:10.

important point. It will not feature in this campaign. They are really

:38:11.:38:21.

important things, things that people like me was wanted. We have run out

:38:22.:38:24.

of time but we do thank you for the short interview this morning. We

:38:25.:38:27.

will come back you as the debate progresses. Just gone 11 30 5am. We

:38:28.:38:37.

now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday

:38:38.:38:40.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:38:41.:38:43.

Unite boss Len McCluskey says the union will give its unequivocal

:38:44.:38:47.

backing to Labour in the May elections.

:38:48.:38:49.

And to staying in Europe Professor Anton Muscatelli is speaking to us

:38:50.:38:53.

live about the biggest educational project in Scotland and his work

:38:54.:38:56.

This road in Corstophine in Edinburgh is Scotland's most

:38:57.:39:02.

polluted - how is it linked to a deferred vote

:39:03.:39:04.

Now - in the independence referendum campaign Unite the Union,

:39:05.:39:13.

as it likes to call itself - sat on the fence.

:39:14.:39:17.

Its argument was that so many of its members wanted

:39:18.:39:19.

independence it didn't want to split the union.

:39:20.:39:21.

The general secretary, Len McCluskey, said yesterday that

:39:22.:39:27.

about 60% of his members in Scotland voted SNP in the general

:39:28.:39:30.

So, would Unite call for an SNP vote in May,

:39:31.:39:34.

Well, I spoke to Mr McCluskey earlier.

:39:35.:39:37.

I began by asking him about one of his other recent suggestions -

:39:38.:39:40.

that Labour should apologise to the people of Scotland.

:39:41.:39:47.

I think what I was trying to say is that the ideology of new Labour,

:39:48.:39:54.

which is pretty prevalent in some of the leaders within Scottish Labour,

:39:55.:40:01.

is that its drives Scottish working people away from Labour and towards

:40:02.:40:08.

the S and P. Perhaps calling for an apology... -- SNP. We now have to

:40:09.:40:15.

say that Labour is under new management so we have to regain your

:40:16.:40:19.

trust and we have to try to make certain that Labour is once again

:40:20.:40:25.

seen as the side of ordinary working people. Evidently, over a long

:40:26.:40:28.

period of time, Scottish Labour lost that trust. It manifested itself on

:40:29.:40:34.

the 7th of May last year and a way that was quite staggering. Yes, we

:40:35.:40:39.

have to be honest and we have to understand what the Scottish

:40:40.:40:43.

working-class are telling us. Now, Nicola Sturgeon, I believe, is

:40:44.:40:46.

seeking at your conference later today. The SNP governments here say

:40:47.:40:53.

they are fighting Tory austerity. Scottish Labour said they are

:40:54.:41:00.

fighting issues like social care and catalogue authorities. The SNP, you

:41:01.:41:07.

say, are implementing it. Which side are you on? I am on the side of the

:41:08.:41:14.

Labour Party. What we have to do with the SNP is the gain to

:41:15.:41:19.

Labour Party. What we have to do scrutinise what the SNP are doing.

:41:20.:41:25.

The reality is that, we need to see, is there a difference between

:41:26.:41:33.

rhetoric and reality? The SNP say that there may be, they have been

:41:34.:41:42.

very pro-union -- they have to turn some of that rhetoric into policy,

:41:43.:41:47.

and to practical policy. We want to see that being more active in

:41:48.:41:53.

opposing the austerity that has been imposed by the Westminster

:41:54.:41:57.

governments. Rather than just blaming Westminster, we want a

:41:58.:42:03.

practical example of how they can oppose this. They want to change the

:42:04.:42:09.

lives of Scottish people and we want to see this. Getty Dugdale, I think

:42:10.:42:17.

is doing a first-class job in leading that challenge. -- Kezia

:42:18.:42:27.

Dugdale. I think it is a question of trying to put it into some kind of

:42:28.:42:30.

context. Labour has to start to deal with things. The Council house

:42:31.:42:36.

freezing, that means there's a whole host of issues which are not being

:42:37.:42:39.

dealt with. Cots are still being implemented. --, is. Kezia Dugdale

:42:40.:42:49.

Has stated how much money is being spent. It is almost half of council

:42:50.:42:55.

tax in Scotland being going to servicing the debt, rather than

:42:56.:43:01.

paying it off. If we are going to have a campaign with the S NP, part

:43:02.:43:08.

of that is pressing strongly for the debt to be dropped. Public services

:43:09.:43:15.

are being threatened. Your union, will it be backing Labour in the

:43:16.:43:24.

Scottish election in a? 100%. I will be saying that a little later on in

:43:25.:43:30.

my speech here. Of course, we will work with the S NP Government. That

:43:31.:43:36.

is Iraq thing to do far members. -- SNP. Many members of them voted for

:43:37.:43:45.

the SNP. We will do all we can to help Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy

:43:46.:43:56.

Corbyn. Why are you backing Labour when you have said that over 60% of

:43:57.:44:04.

your members voted SNP at the last general election in Scotland? Why

:44:05.:44:09.

don't you back then or do what you did in the independence referendum

:44:10.:44:14.

and sit on the Our union is affiliated with the Labour Party.

:44:15.:44:20.

That is all our members within Britain. That is the position and

:44:21.:44:23.

until that position changes, within our rules, we are bound to Labour

:44:24.:44:30.

and we are not bound to support any other political party. That is the

:44:31.:44:37.

way it should be. It was the trade unions that created and gave birth

:44:38.:44:39.

to the Labour Party. Remember, at one point of her story in Scotland,

:44:40.:44:45.

80% of Unite members would vote Labour. Labour have got to do

:44:46.:44:53.

something about it. It makes them never to look like Mount Everest.

:44:54.:44:58.

The challenge they face. We will be supporting Jeromy and Kezia because

:44:59.:45:12.

they offer something different. Unite members are coming back to

:45:13.:45:16.

Labour and away from the S NP. Another poll it looks increasingly

:45:17.:45:19.

likely that we may have this year is a referendum on the European Union.

:45:20.:45:25.

What is your view on that? Are you for staying in the European Union

:45:26.:45:28.

are you leading to what the cup campaign? We are united solidly as a

:45:29.:45:40.

pro-European Union. We were slightly concerned when the Prime Minister

:45:41.:45:44.

started to talk about renegotiating, because they knew he was looking to

:45:45.:45:51.

take away more rights from British workers and we are against that. We

:45:52.:46:02.

called for the Prime Minister to stop playing stupid games. We don't

:46:03.:46:05.

want to take away more rights. It looks as if the Prime Minister has

:46:06.:46:09.

seen common sense and has moved away from that. Of course, he was forced

:46:10.:46:13.

into a corner by the right wing Tory MPs and in need by Ukip. He seems to

:46:14.:46:21.

have moved away from that and all of our manufacturing companies that we

:46:22.:46:24.

deal with believe we should stay in Europe. It is pretty likely that

:46:25.:46:28.

Unite, along with most of the British trade union movement will be

:46:29.:46:35.

supporting staying in Europe. On nuclear weapons, I know you are

:46:36.:46:40.

concerned that there were suggestions that Labour might make

:46:41.:46:45.

some kind of decision on the policy regarding balloting, that may

:46:46.:46:51.

exclude the trade union involvement. Are you satisfied to have been given

:46:52.:47:03.

assurances... Go on. Yes. I am completely satisfied. It has been

:47:04.:47:06.

clarified for is what the process is. It will be a comprehensive

:47:07.:47:13.

review of the sector, not just the nucleoside but conventional offence

:47:14.:47:16.

as well. We think that is the right thing to do. The only political

:47:17.:47:22.

party that is doing it. It is a good thing. The media of course will

:47:23.:47:26.

watch to obsess about Trident because they see it as a division

:47:27.:47:30.

within Labour. The truth is that the review will take place and, what is

:47:31.:47:35.

absolutely critical for Unite is, that we are prone jobs and

:47:36.:47:45.

pro-community. That will be a priority, that will be confirmed to

:47:46.:47:53.

them. Everyone in Scotland can rest easy in their beds, as indeed can

:47:54.:47:59.

defence workers... You say they can rest easy in their beds, but

:48:00.:48:03.

presumably you are not exactly delighted that the two largest

:48:04.:48:06.

parties in Scotland will be going into the May elections, Labour and

:48:07.:48:15.

the SNP, where, in effect, they both have policies on nuclear

:48:16.:48:20.

disarmament... I don't think that is the Labour Party... Well, they have

:48:21.:48:25.

decided they are against renewing Trident. Know, if you really policy

:48:26.:48:32.

carefully, you'll see that is a very queer caveat about guarantees --

:48:33.:48:42.

clear. Given to protect jobs and immunities. This is important. Only

:48:43.:48:51.

this time in years, think you have a leader of a political party in

:48:52.:48:53.

Jeremy Corbyn who is serious about wanting to discuss diversification.

:48:54.:49:02.

We have been looking for that for a long, long time. We are engaged in a

:49:03.:49:06.

number of initiatives and no one has ever taking it seriously. We see

:49:07.:49:10.

what is happening with the defence review as something that is

:49:11.:49:12.

positive. Our members can rest assured that, irrespective of who

:49:13.:49:17.

the Labour leader on the Prime Minister is, we will defend their

:49:18.:49:21.

jobs and their communities. Thank you for joining us this morning.

:49:22.:49:24.

Education wasn't the first career option of Professor Anton Muscatelli

:49:25.:49:26.

- his childhood ambition was to be an astronaut.

:49:27.:49:29.

When that didn't work out, he became an economist and moved

:49:30.:49:31.

from being a trainee in a bank to a one-year university lectureship.

:49:32.:49:34.

He must have done something right because he's now been Principal

:49:35.:49:37.

and Vice Chancellor of the University of Glasgow

:49:38.:49:39.

He's also been a consultant to the World Bank and the European

:49:40.:49:46.

Commission, a member of the Panel of Economic Advisers

:49:47.:49:49.

of the Secretary of State for Scotland and an adviser

:49:50.:49:51.

to the House of Commons Treasury Select Committee -

:49:52.:49:53.

in addition to serving as chairman for the Calman Commission.

:49:54.:49:55.

Professor Muscatelli joins me now in the studio.

:49:56.:49:58.

You could have been doing your first spacewalk this week. It would have

:49:59.:50:05.

been great, but I am afraid I had to go for my second option. You have

:50:06.:50:10.

produced this report on the economic impact at Glasgow University.

:50:11.:50:13.

Astonishingly, you found it is very positive. Give us a 32nd gist of

:50:14.:50:23.

what you think it is important. As I said in an interview to Holyrood

:50:24.:50:27.

magazine, we have a huge economic impact as an organisation. 1.5

:50:28.:50:31.

billion of Scottish output, we are responsible for up to 15,000 jobs.

:50:32.:50:36.

Not just in Glasgow, but around the country, the Highlands, the Borders.

:50:37.:50:39.

600 jobs in Edinburgh which we impact on. We are also about to

:50:40.:50:45.

embark and unusually exciting expansion of our campus. About 1

:50:46.:50:47.

billion spent over the next ten years, three quarters of which which

:50:48.:50:52.

will be on capital facilities, which will generate another 2500 jobs and

:50:53.:50:58.

another 30 million of gross value added for the Scottish economy. We

:50:59.:51:03.

are a big player in innovation and in skills and innovation. -- skills

:51:04.:51:08.

and education. The world of universities is becoming ever more

:51:09.:51:12.

competitive. You are not just against the fact that universities

:51:13.:51:17.

in England have fees, but also American universities which have

:51:18.:51:22.

huge endowments and the sort of things English universities would

:51:23.:51:25.

find unimaginable. You completely relaxed about the fee situation in

:51:26.:51:30.

England? Yes, because we are a globally competitive university. We

:51:31.:51:34.

are one of two or three in Scotland that are in the global top 100. We

:51:35.:51:37.

have seen demand for our courses grow, not only in Scotland, but from

:51:38.:51:41.

the rest of the UK and internationally. We have grown our

:51:42.:51:45.

international numbers in Glasgow by between 80 and 90% in the last five

:51:46.:51:51.

years. The other thing about universities in America... There has

:51:52.:51:57.

been talk for 30 years in Scotland about universities becoming engines

:51:58.:52:00.

of economic growth, spin off companies and the rest of it. The

:52:01.:52:04.

model was always Stanford in California and its connection with

:52:05.:52:09.

silicon valley. I'm sure you could tell me lots of things that Glasgow

:52:10.:52:14.

and other universities have done that have led to businesses, but hit

:52:15.:52:17.

it has never quite happened in the way it has in America. Your macro I

:52:18.:52:22.

would contest that. If you look at our own performance in terms of spin

:52:23.:52:27.

outs, in terms of jobs over the last few years, which year by year are

:52:28.:52:31.

still producing up to ?240 million of output for the Scottish economy.

:52:32.:52:34.

If you look at Scottish universities, they are indeed places

:52:35.:52:45.

for. We could do better, joining up much better the whole of the

:52:46.:52:47.

innovation landscape. That is something we are on the case to

:52:48.:52:51.

doing with our partner universities, with government, with other

:52:52.:52:56.

agencies. We have to continue to improve because other competitors in

:52:57.:52:59.

the US are continuing to up their game. You played quite a role in the

:53:00.:53:06.

devolution business. You work adviser to the common commission --

:53:07.:53:22.

Calman Commission. Are you concerned about this? I am very concerned. As

:53:23.:53:25.

I have said in the press quite a bit over the last few months, the fiscal

:53:26.:53:30.

framework is as if not more important than the bill itself,

:53:31.:53:34.

because it will set the physical parameters around which Scottish

:53:35.:53:37.

Government in future will have to decide our options. As I pointed

:53:38.:53:41.

out, if we choose the wrong formula for adjusting the block grant after

:53:42.:53:46.

the settlement, the Scottish parliament could lose up to 7

:53:47.:53:50.

billion over ten years if the wrong formula is used. I intervene to

:53:51.:53:56.

support a per capita index, a way of trying to protect Scotland from

:53:57.:54:03.

those demographic risks. The fear is, is it, that, should, for

:54:04.:54:09.

example, we changed tack tax rates -- tax rates appear, if it grows

:54:10.:54:15.

slower than it does in the rest of the UK, Scotland could lose out? The

:54:16.:54:21.

fear is this. Even if our tax base grows at the same rate as the rest

:54:22.:54:25.

of the UK, if we choose the wrong formula, we could still lose because

:54:26.:54:28.

of the growth in population in the south-east of England. The way the

:54:29.:54:32.

Smith Commission framed the agreement is that it said Barnett is

:54:33.:54:39.

central to the new Scotland act. There should be no detriment. If we

:54:40.:54:43.

were to choose the per capita method, we could end up losing

:54:44.:54:47.

hundreds of millions of pounds a year. The problem is, this phrase,

:54:48.:54:52.

no detriment, is itself a tremendously ambiguous, isn't it? I

:54:53.:54:57.

can imagine some people would say, well, if the East of England

:54:58.:55:00.

managers to get lots more people wanting to go and stay there than in

:55:01.:55:07.

Scotland, well, tough. The Scottish woman should implement policies that

:55:08.:55:10.

mean people want to live in Scotland. We can't be expected to

:55:11.:55:16.

pay for that. The UK is a very peculiar country in the European

:55:17.:55:19.

context because London and the south-east are such a magnet for

:55:20.:55:23.

population, and because the Scottish Government arguably does not have

:55:24.:55:26.

any tools at its disposable to try to offset that. It still creates the

:55:27.:55:34.

right incentive. It does mean that we have to keep up our tax base

:55:35.:55:40.

growth within those parameters. It is actually, I think, a good

:55:41.:55:44.

compromise and fair to Scotland and the rest of the UK. The finance

:55:45.:55:49.

secretary, John Swinney, has threatened not to approve the fiscal

:55:50.:55:53.

framework and, in effect, have said no to further devolution. Unless he

:55:54.:55:59.

gets what he wants out of it. What he thinks is fair. Do you think that

:56:00.:56:03.

is a realistic option for the Scottish Parliament, given that the

:56:04.:56:10.

SNP's opponents would say, hang on, the SNP are refusing Morfa Scotland?

:56:11.:56:16.

It is difficult, but you cannot accept it at any price -- additional

:56:17.:56:21.

powers at any price. Over the next ten years, you might lose 7 billion

:56:22.:56:25.

of that, it is not a great deal because it was was Scotland to make

:56:26.:56:31.

choices which are not in its economic interest. Rather famously

:56:32.:56:35.

and controversially, during the referendum campaign, you wrote a

:56:36.:56:38.

piece in the Financial Times arguing for currency. Do you think that is

:56:39.:56:47.

still a viable option, should there be in the referendum campaign? I

:56:48.:56:53.

think it is. If you remember, I argued it from the point of view

:56:54.:56:57.

also from the rest of the UK's point of view. Volumes of trade between

:56:58.:57:01.

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are so vast that it

:57:02.:57:05.

would have been hugely destructive to break that currency union. I also

:57:06.:57:08.

pointed out it was not the only option. There were a range of

:57:09.:57:13.

options and all have advantages and disadvantages. There have been

:57:14.:57:16.

mutterings from people in the yes campaign to the fact that given

:57:17.:57:21.

everyone else in Britain said, no, you can't have that, it wasn't the

:57:22.:57:25.

best idea to be trying to convince people to vote for independence.

:57:26.:57:28.

There seems to have been not very much discussion about practical

:57:29.:57:36.

alternatives. Obviously, I cannot comment on these argument is, I was

:57:37.:57:41.

making the argument of what would have been in the interest

:57:42.:57:44.

economically... What is your favourite alternative to that? The

:57:45.:57:49.

most immediate would have been a Scottish currency pegged in some way

:57:50.:57:53.

to UK pound to try to avoid major currency fluctuations. That was the

:57:54.:57:58.

heart of that original discussion. Now, given that oil prices have

:57:59.:58:02.

collapsed, where would you go into that model now, you think Scotland

:58:03.:58:08.

can borrow at reasonable rates? Since the Euro crisis, the idea that

:58:09.:58:11.

you can just borrow at the same rate as your quietening currency has gone

:58:12.:58:16.

out the window. Small countries do this all the time. If you look at

:58:17.:58:20.

the Baltic economies, the Scandinavian economies, that is not

:58:21.:58:25.

an issue. The debate has to go beyond one element, which is the

:58:26.:58:28.

currency. Thank you very much indeed.

:58:29.:58:30.

The latest Friends of the Earth survey has revealed that

:58:31.:58:32.

St John's Road in Edinburgh is Scotland's most polluted.

:58:33.:58:34.

It's closley followed by Glasgow's Hope Street.

:58:35.:58:36.

The relationship between car emissions and ambient air quality

:58:37.:58:38.

is a fundamental issue with vehicles contributing significantly

:58:39.:58:42.

to pollution in our towns and cities.

:58:43.:58:44.

So testing those emissions under real conditions is critical element

:58:45.:58:47.

in monitoring and controlling pollution.

:58:48.:58:50.

Against this backdrop, there's concern that a key European

:58:51.:58:53.

vote on testing roadside emissions - due to take place this week -

:58:54.:58:56.

Everyone is used to the site of cars on our roads. They are a vital part

:58:57.:59:12.

of everyday life. But at what cost? The fumes which come out of vehicle

:59:13.:59:16.

exhaust pipes play a big role in the rise of air pollution, a problem

:59:17.:59:20.

which is linked with thousands of deaths in Scotland each year. This

:59:21.:59:26.

is St John's Road in Edinburgh, it is like many other streets across

:59:27.:59:29.

Scotland. There are businesses here and people live here. But it has

:59:30.:59:34.

also been given the unfortunate title of Scotland's most polluted

:59:35.:59:38.

road. So, what do the people who live and work you make of that? I

:59:39.:59:49.

was smoking, I was going out every week and because of the air

:59:50.:00:02.

pollution, I never got down to zero. Age doesn't affect me at all. I go

:00:03.:00:06.

outside for fresh air, but you can't get fresh air. The claim that St

:00:07.:00:13.

John's Road is Scotland's most polluted street is made by the

:00:14.:00:17.

environmental group Friends of the Earth Scotland. It is based on

:00:18.:00:20.

figures gathered by monitoring stations like this one. On the day

:00:21.:00:25.

we filmed here, pollution levels were described as low, but Friends

:00:26.:00:28.

of the Earth say that, on average, legal limit in air quality are being

:00:29.:00:34.

breached. If you are breathing in air pollution day in day out, you

:00:35.:00:38.

are more likely to have a stroke, a heart attack. If you are asthmatic,

:00:39.:00:42.

you might find your symptoms worsened. Air pollution causes 2000

:00:43.:00:47.

early deaths in Scotland every year. It is a serious public health crisis

:00:48.:00:52.

and tackling it should be top priority for the Scottish

:00:53.:00:56.

Government. The annual average European legal limit for the

:00:57.:01:01.

pollutant nitrogen dioxide is set at 40 micrograms per cubic metre. New

:01:02.:01:05.

research from Friends of the Earth say the level on St John's Road in

:01:06.:01:12.

2015 was 65 micrograms. Elsewhere, the nitrogen dioxide level on Hope

:01:13.:01:16.

Street in Glasgow was 60 micrograms. The figure for Dundee's Seagate was

:01:17.:01:24.

50. What is being done about it? Two months ago, the Scottish Government

:01:25.:01:27.

set a target to make Scotland's at the best in Europe. Ministers want

:01:28.:01:32.

councils to play their part, but councils say, to do that, they need

:01:33.:01:38.

more cash. Is being made very clear to the civil servants and the

:01:39.:01:41.

Scottish Government that we are talking about a strategy in terms of

:01:42.:01:45.

low emissions. As local government, we need those resources. We are

:01:46.:01:49.

making cuts this year and therefore we need resources. If you want us to

:01:50.:01:52.

work in partnership with you, we need the resources to be able to

:01:53.:01:56.

implement that low emission strategy. The pressure is mounting.

:01:57.:02:00.

The revelation that the car-maker faults wagon -- Volkswagen fitted

:02:01.:02:08.

emission deceiving devices to its cars. A vote on the issue, due to

:02:09.:02:16.

take this place -- take place this week has been postponed, as

:02:17.:02:20.

politicians decide whether to make those limits even tougher. For

:02:21.:02:23.

residents living in congested cities like Edinburgh, that means further

:02:24.:02:27.

delay. The local council here says 97% of its streets actually pass at

:02:28.:02:33.

quality tests and it is working on the rest. Assurances like that have

:02:34.:02:38.

not persuaded campaigners, who argue that air pollution is now at the

:02:39.:02:40.

heart of a major health crisis. I'm joined in our London

:02:41.:02:43.

studio by Alan Andrews, who is an air quality lawyer for

:02:44.:02:45.

the ClientEarth environmental group. ClientEarth was involved in a legal

:02:46.:02:59.

case against the British government over air quality. There has been

:03:00.:03:03.

talk of a legal case against the Scottish comment. I'm not clear

:03:04.:03:06.

whether that is just an idea whether this is something you do intend to

:03:07.:03:11.

do. ClientEarth fought a five-year legal battle against the UK

:03:12.:03:15.

Government over illegal levels of air pollution, but the Scottish

:03:16.:03:21.

Government, the Scottish ministers, are responsible for protecting

:03:22.:03:23.

Scottish people from air pollution. They could find themselves in the

:03:24.:03:29.

firing line in the future if other organisations like ClientEarth

:03:30.:03:31.

decided to take action. For the moment, ClientEarth is very much

:03:32.:03:35.

focused on the UK Government. We are pushing for a new air quality plan

:03:36.:03:40.

which will tackle pollution from dirty diesel vehicles as soon as

:03:41.:03:43.

possible. You have no present intention of taking a legal case

:03:44.:03:47.

against the Scottish Government. Our present intention is to focus on the

:03:48.:03:52.

UK Government, but that case will improve Scotland, the supreme court

:03:53.:03:57.

order covered Glasgow because pollution in Glasgow is at illegal

:03:58.:04:00.

levels and the plans to achieve legal limits were not adequate. The

:04:01.:04:05.

UK and Scotland is very much in our sights. What is a government or

:04:06.:04:13.

local authority supposed to do? They seem to be particular streets, Hope

:04:14.:04:17.

Street in Glasgow, there are a lot of bosses. Tall buildings either

:04:18.:04:21.

side. What are they supposed to do to ameliorate this? You mentioned

:04:22.:04:42.

buses, the also taxis, vans, and diesel cars. We need to ban diesel

:04:43.:04:49.

vehicles from the road unless they meet the new emission standards on

:04:50.:04:55.

the roads. You can imagine a lot of people saying, "Hang on a minute,

:04:56.:04:58.

are you saying we need to stop using buses? " No, we need to see cleaner

:04:59.:05:07.

vehicles on the roads. We need to see a will emission buses on the

:05:08.:05:12.

roads. That'll require a major investment. We need to see money

:05:13.:05:16.

invested and given to local authorities so they can have the

:05:17.:05:18.

tools in front of them to this problem. How significant a player

:05:19.:05:26.

our cars that households use in this converged to buses and trucks Lewes

:05:27.:05:31.

some local authorities have been accused of not doing roadside

:05:32.:05:38.

emissions testing. It is now part of MOT for cars. We should now have to

:05:39.:05:41.

do that. LOSS OF SOUND

:05:42.:05:51.

Diesel cars -- diesel cars are a massive part of this. We do need to

:05:52.:05:55.

take action against diesel cars. That is what we need to be looking

:05:56.:06:01.

at. Parking rights schemes and major investment in public transport, so

:06:02.:06:04.

people have a realistic alternative to driving the dirty diesel car into

:06:05.:06:08.

the town centre, where we know it does much damage to humans. Does

:06:09.:06:14.

this connects to the Volkswagen scandal? Because obviously we have

:06:15.:06:20.

been told some whoppers about the actual emissions about nitrous oxide

:06:21.:06:23.

from diesel cars. I'm not clear whether these hotspots, if you like,

:06:24.:06:29.

of bad emissions across Britain, whether that has anything to do with

:06:30.:06:37.

cars giving off more nitrous oxides than the manufacturers say they are

:06:38.:06:40.

or whether there are just too many cars and buses on the roads. The

:06:41.:06:45.

Volkswagen scandal is very relevant year. The levels on a mission

:06:46.:06:51.

pollution, we are seeing in these hot spots from diesel cars and

:06:52.:06:53.

buses, the Volkswagen scandal shoulders that diesel emissions are

:06:54.:07:01.

far higher than the legal requirement. -- showed eyes. What we

:07:02.:07:12.

need to see is action at the EU level to make sure that EU

:07:13.:07:15.

regulations are fit for purpose and directly delivering real world

:07:16.:07:21.

emission cuts and that they are not breathing in this for years to come

:07:22.:07:22.

thank you. Well, joining me is the MEP

:07:23.:07:30.

Alyn Smith, who's in our Hyde, Gordon. You are tightening up

:07:31.:07:49.

nitrous oxides in Europe and how they are outlined in documents. Any

:07:50.:07:52.

documents they have produced, they seem to be allowed to exceed the

:07:53.:07:56.

limits that haven't been introduced yet. This is my letter that has been

:07:57.:08:03.

called in as part of the scandal, I am also involved, not just laid a

:08:04.:08:07.

legislator but also as a consumer. I am hopping mad about it. When I got

:08:08.:08:11.

my car, I did look at diesel emission levels, and I was told that

:08:12.:08:22.

they had improved and I was safe to buy one. We are actively misled as

:08:23.:08:25.

consumers by industry. The proposal we had was not actually contingent

:08:26.:08:30.

to the Volkswagen scandal, it actually started much earlier. We

:08:31.:08:35.

need to tighten up emission scandals and we needed to tighten up how we

:08:36.:08:44.

test. What was the result was a pretty toothless package. That is

:08:45.:08:47.

why we responded and was restored by only a month, because they were

:08:48.:08:52.

thought they were going to lose it. We have been on a systematic

:08:53.:08:56.

industrial scale, misled by industry that we trusted on a long-term

:08:57.:09:04.

basis. Just a nice proposed changes, you call them mealy-mouthed, an EU

:09:05.:09:10.

rules, the car manufacturers will be allowed to exceed these levels, the

:09:11.:09:19.

new maximum levels. By 110%. That is why I said it was not good enough of

:09:20.:09:25.

it for purpose. What power of the European Parliament have, can you

:09:26.:09:31.

just say no and that is it? Yes, we are the legislators. It is not law

:09:32.:09:40.

unless they say it is long. What ClientEarth has been referring to is

:09:41.:09:47.

how these emissions levels were achievable. We have seen a lot of

:09:48.:09:50.

failure as to what we think we should be getting a new way of

:09:51.:09:54.

emission testing in our atmosphere, and that is not adding up and

:09:55.:09:59.

aligned with what industry has told us. We have seen a massive

:10:00.:10:02.

discrepancy in that. What is even more significant is that it was

:10:03.:10:05.

discovered by the Scottish, British, German, European authorities. It was

:10:06.:10:10.

discovered by an American authorities. It is the US Federal

:10:11.:10:14.

levels was not a different case about this. There will be huge

:10:15.:10:16.

ramifications of this going forward. We have been actively misled by a

:10:17.:10:21.

major, major industry. That is why we are having the abortion problem

:10:22.:10:24.

that we are having. Is it your suspicion that this is scandal

:10:25.:10:31.

Michael Fuller? -- pollution problems. Is your suspicion that

:10:32.:10:45.

this goes wider than Volkswagen? It is so fundamental that this calls

:10:46.:10:48.

into order all the numbers that we have approving. In 2004, I approved

:10:49.:10:54.

the current emissions levels because we were led to believe that they

:10:55.:10:56.

were achievable. We were allegedly decided by the industry who know

:10:57.:11:02.

what better than the legislator do. It is the problem that we have been

:11:03.:11:13.

less said by a great chunk of automotive companies. -- misled. The

:11:14.:11:16.

European Parliament decided in November that we will be setting up

:11:17.:11:25.

a enquiry. This will set up how we do the testing and measure the

:11:26.:11:29.

standard. We have to move to a new testing regime, it is ridiculous

:11:30.:11:34.

that we haven't. This is a huge global scandal. Again, just explain

:11:35.:11:37.

to people have not been following this too closely, when you say real

:11:38.:11:43.

world, that is different from last testing. You can do at testing and

:11:44.:11:48.

it looks fine but when you taken out of the street, you get different

:11:49.:11:53.

numbers. It is exactly that. It is down to the extent of which

:11:54.:11:56.

computers actually run cars on their software. It is much less mechanical

:11:57.:12:02.

and more about computers. These cars have a software that identifies when

:12:03.:12:07.

a car is only rolling road. The thing that you have or MOT centre

:12:08.:12:11.

will demonstrate it is on a rolling road. Otherwise, the cavalry

:12:12.:12:14.

reacting as if the car was having some kind of scared. -- skid. That

:12:15.:12:24.

changes the power output of the car to a more emissions efficient way of

:12:25.:12:29.

doing it. It was woefully misleading. To convey a much bigger

:12:30.:12:33.

issue, good and? I'm Tuesday and what you think of this. We in Europe

:12:34.:12:37.

have gone for diesel cars in the way that consumers in America have not

:12:38.:12:45.

done so to the same extent. If it turns out that these figures are

:12:46.:12:48.

wrong, one of the reasons we went from diesel cars right across Europe

:12:49.:12:53.

is because they were supposed to be fuel-efficient and the emissions

:12:54.:12:56.

were supposed low. Good people industry, do you think, the change?

:12:57.:13:06.

The whole industry has to change. It has to change full stop. I bought my

:13:07.:13:18.

car on the basis that I thought it was safer in terms of emissions than

:13:19.:13:22.

it is. A lot of people have been misled. Not least, in terms of tax.

:13:23.:13:26.

But at the different tax regimes we have entered is a pedal buses

:13:27.:13:32.

diesel. A lot of the market signals -- petrol versus diesel. Full a lot

:13:33.:13:38.

of the figures have been different to what we were told. We have been

:13:39.:13:41.

woefully misled. Emission standards away with them they have been. This

:13:42.:13:45.

is not just a Scottish thing. I am sorry to bring you to a halt but we

:13:46.:13:49.

have ran out of time. We will leave you to go stir woefully actual tax

:13:50.:13:54.

year.

:13:55.:13:57.

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