10/01/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer discuss EU renegotiation with David Davis, Labour under Jeremy Corbyn with Lucy Powell, and a seven-day health service with Stephen Dorrell.

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David Cameron says he's hopeful for a deal next month


on a new relationship between Britain and the European Union.


Is momentum building for a referendum this summer?


He sacked two ministers prompting three to resign in protest -


but is Jeremy Corbyn in a more powerful position at the end


of a tumultuous week for the Labour Party?


We'll speak to Shadow Cabinet Minister Lucy Powell.


Junior doctors defy Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and say


they will go ahead with their strike, starting Tuesday.


What's prompted their first walkout in 40 years?


And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:


If the Prime Minister's optimism over the EU referendum shared by


Labour and other politicians here? We're ten days into 2016 and we've


not sacked them and they've not resigned yet, so with me,


the best and the brightest political panel in the business, Nick Watt,


Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So David Cameron toured Europe last


week continuing his re-negotiation of Britain's EU membership


ahead of the referendum. He knows that whatever he comes back


with will not persuade So they will be free


to campaign for an exit. But this morning the Prime Minister


made it clearer than ever that he would be campaigning


to stay in the EU. My aim is clear, the best of both


worlds for Britain, the massive prize of sorting out what frustrates


us about Europe, but staying in a reformed Europe. The prize is closer


than it was and I will work around the clock to get that done. The


government will not be neutral about this issue with people on one side


or the other, my intention is that at the conclusion of the


negotiation, the Cabinet reaches a clear recommendation for the British


people on what we will do. I hope that we'll be staying in a reformed


European Union, because I have got a good negotiation for Britain. At


that point, clear government position, members of the


Cabinet, ministers with long-standing, long-held views on a


different basis, they will be able to campaign.


And we're joined now by the eurosceptic Conservative MP,


Who should lead the out campaign? I do not think personalities matter.


The Prime Minister matters because he has a big personality. For the


out campaign, you have Nigella Lawson, other people. No doubt you


will have four five Cabinet ministers. Does it not need to be a


better known public figure than Nigel Lawson, who was Chancellor in


the 1980s, or Chris Grayling or even yourself? No, people will not make


their decision on the basis of which pretty face is leading the campaign.


their decision on the basis of which They will make it on one basis


alone, will it be good for my job or They will make it on one basis


bad for my job? The argument They will make it on one basis


other bogus numbers that come up, They will make it on one basis


will be about my job, is my industry protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa


May? There will be lots protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa


in Westminster, should Boris lead, it will not matter. What matters is


the it will not matter. What matters is


be decided before the conclusion of the negotiation. Nigel Farage has


had a torrid time since the general election, culminating in the


assassination attempt that apparently was not. Is he a


liability to the leave campaign? No, probably not. He has about 3 million


people who are supporting him. Some of them in his party? He is his


party, to a large extent. I do not of them in his party? He is his


think is a liability, everyone knows what he and his party are like.


think is a liability, everyone knows he got lots of credibility? It has


slipped backwards he got lots of credibility? It has


election. I do not think the parties matter. The personalities do not


election. I do not think the parties matter. This will be a personal


decision. What percentage of matter. This will be a personal


MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is a majority, I do not know what


MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is tomorrow and there was no other


is that including the payroll vote? Yes. So two thirds of the


Conservative Parliamentary party will vote to leave? Yes, if you did


it tomorrow. But you have to be in mind the dynamics. You, like me,


have lived through a lot of prime ministers and ministers returning


from They arrive on Monday at 330 and


declare their victory. We have no other information. None of it is


published, the decisions had been taken in private with no


journalists. There will be a sort taken in private with no


wave out of that. Out of that, taken in private with no


thirds will evaporate. Come the day, even 50% of the Conservative Party?


I should think so. How many Cabinet ministers will exercise their right


to campaign to leave? Not more ministers will exercise their right


half a dozen, 56 maybe. I cannot think of more. Iain Duncan Smith?


Iain Duncan Smith, maybe Theresa May, maybe sad you jab it, certainly


Chris Grayling. Maybe Iain Duncan Smith. What is your reaction this


morning to the story Smith. What is your reaction this


officials in Downing Street are vetting or altering speeches by


ministers to tone down Eurosceptic comments? My speeches go back 20


years or so. Is this the start of the government machine getting


moving? Yes. There are three things David Cameron said that were


important. David Cameron made it plain that the government machine


will go crazy on one side of this side image. It has started. Nothing


unusual in that, by the way. David Cameron might get some sort of deal


which curtails in work benefits for migrants. Is that a game changer,


does it change it his way? He said, or something equally powerful, not


important at all. Why do people come from Romania to hear? They come


because the minimum wage is twice as big as the average wage in Rumania.


And about to get bigger. In 2020, according to the Treasury strategy,


tax credits will not matter, which is why they wanted to abolish them.


In 2020, this whole strategy will be relevant. What is your best guess


for the date of the referendum? Probably September this year. Not in


summer? It might, but they have limitations built into the law. If


they get it through in February, they might get the summer, but I do


not think they will get it through in February. Bear in mind they have


four basic claims, only one of which has really been talked about at the


moment. Some of the others, the parliamentary proposals, the defence


of the city, the euro, all of this, it will either be just words and not


matter, which is weird lips at the moment, or it will be serious. The


city basically needs a veto in European legislation relating to


financial services. If it does not get that, it is meaningless. If


David Cameron loses the referendum, does he have to resign as Prime


Minister? That is the least important question. Is there an


answer? I do not know. Should they? Not necessarily, it depends on how


it goes with the terms. He said this morning there is no plans for a


British exit. This is disgraceful. You have two moderately likely


outcomes. We do not know which will be. There were no plans for Scottish


independence. I suspect there were. There are no plans for the British


exit and that is serious because it is a complicated operation to carry


out if it happens. We will be returning to you, David Davis, thank


you. Nick, there is no doubt that the


Prime Minister is gearing up to campaign disdain with he brings back


from Brussels. Absolutely, he is determined to keep Britain in the


European Union. His official languages that he wants to


renegotiate better terms and if he gets the right deal, he will keep


them, but the mask slip today when Andrew Marr asked about British


exit, the preparations for that, and he said it was not the right answer.


Today, the other interesting things he did was a reprieve is of the


Scottish referendum. He was saying that if you are -- that if you lost


the referendum he would not resign. He wants to get that message out


there because he wants to kill the idea of a link between his future


and the referendum results. With the Scottish referendum, in private they


prepared a resignation later. He made clear to Andrew Marr this


morning that the government machine is not going to be neutral, it will


back David Cameron. That is one of the reasons I would disagree with


David Davis and say that the out campaign needs a big figurehead. You


will have the full weight of an institutional machine behind the yes


vote. On the out said, we have Nigel Farage. He appeals to 3 million


voters, but not a majority. There is a responsible case to be made. That


is why someone like Boris Johnson will be pressured enormously to say


which side he will jump for. If David Davis is right, and at least


50% of the parliamentary party, including the payroll vote is going


to vote to leave, many will campaign to leave, that is a massive problem


for the Conservatives and David Cameron? The problem is especially


acute if the final result is so narrow that the result can be


plausibly attributed to a credible, sitting Conservative Prime Minister


having campaigned to remain in. If Eurosceptic backbenchers are Cabinet


minister can say, had David Cameron campaigned the other way, or less


lasciviously, we might have got our lifetime's ambition to leave the


European Union. If it is close, it will linger in the Tory party. It


introduces poison. My guess is that the party will fall apart. I am much


less certain than I was 18 months ago. They know they can govern for


another nine years. Have we change the constitution? I think the


presence of Germany Corbyn effectively guarantees the next


election. -- the presence of Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you.


So Jeremy Corbyn sacked two Shadow ministers and three resigned.


Now another Labour MP says she can no longer work with the party's


leadership in the wake of last week's reshuffle.


Alison McGovern has told this programme that she is resigning


from a policy review on child poverty after the pressure group


she chairs was described as "right wing" and "Conservative"


Labour say she's resigning from something that doesn't exist.


As Labour's internal divisions become more acrimonious,


can the different wings of the party continue to work with each other?


A new year, a new start, but still the fireworks.


But let's be honest, we have sort of got used to them.


There was that vote on Syria which saw 67 Labour MPs disagree


with their leader and vote with the government,


not least because of that speech from Hilary Benn.


Can I have a Green Clean Machine, please, with Siberian ginseng


Jeremy Corbyn's new year resolution, we were led to believe,


was to detoxify his party, starting with a reshuffle.


Things had started appearing in some of the newspapers.


There was talk of revenge, a dish best served cold.


The leadership team denied any such briefing.


But nothing actually happened until Tuesday when Michael Dugher,


the then Shadow Culture Secretary tweeted, just been


The day rattled on but it was not until after midnight that


Pat McFadden was fired from his role as a Shadow Europe Minister.


Both were accused of disloyalty by the leadership.


What then followed was a raft of resignations.


The first was Jonathan Reynolds in the Shadow Transport team.


Then the Shadow Foreign Office Minister, who picked our programme


I have just written to Jeremy Corbyn to resign from the front bench.


that I've seen being briefed at this morning, are simply not true.


Undoubtedly they will do that about other individuals,


undoubtedly they will do that about me.


Less than an hour later, Shadow Defence Minister Kevan Jones


Jeremy Corbyn's right-hand man, John McDonnell, also


We have had a few junior members resign today


and that is their right, but they do all come from a narrow


right wing clique within the Labour Party, based around


I do not think they have ever really accepted Jeremy's mandate.


Progress is seen broadly as the Blairite wing of the party.


By the time the Shadow Chancellor was making those comments,


I am told he was late for a meeting with the group's


Alison McGovern says he asked to take part in Labour's policy


review on the subject, a role from which the Sunday Politics can


reveal she now feels she has to resign.


I am there waiting to meet him to talk about it and all


the while he had gone to the television studio to call


the organisation that I am the chair of of having a hard right


We are all Labour members and we believe in having


That is what we are, nothing more, nothing less,


and I do not want to be on the television talking


about this, but I feel like I have been backed into a corner and I have


no other choice now but to stand up and say,


this is who we are and we should get on with the business of getting


The rumours have centred around one man, because of this.


It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria.


But Hilary Benn kept his job as Shadow Foreign Secretary.


The BBC understands a number of Shadow Cabinet ministers had


Other new frontbenchers have defended their boss.


What Jeremy Corbyn has tried to do is to be consensual, to negotiate,


not to hurt people's feelings and get the right team,


This has not exactly been a happy new year for Labour.


One Shadow Cabinet minister told me the handling of this


Another former minister said it smacked of a leader more focused


on consolidating his power internally and he was not looking


It has left a bad taste in the mouths of a number of them.


Actually, can I have a coffee instead?


We're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Education Secretary,


Welcome back to the programme. Was Jeremy Corbyn right to sack Michael


Dugher from the Shadow Cabinet? Good morning to you as well. It is good


to be zero. It has been a very difficult week for the Labour Party.


How can I top it off, by having a nice friendly chat with you about


the Labour Party? Was he right to sack Michael Dugher? I do not think


that after the difficult week we have had, I week which everybody


will be down to experience and learn the lessons from, that it is helpful


to the Labour Party, and indeed politics as a whole, for us to pick


through the events of that week. There is the moment to draw a line


under what has happened this week and to focus on the job we have got,


to be an effective opposition, to take this Tory government to task


and to start to begin that detailed work of setting out Labour's vision


and policies for the future, so that by the time of the next election, we


have a real alternative to put on the table. OK, but you would agree


the events are worthy of analysis and this is our first new programme


of the new Year. Jeremy Corbyn's team briefed that Michael Dugher was


incompetent. Do you think he was incompetent? The events of this week


have had plenty of analysis over many days. Not on this programme.


You have on your programme during the week as well. Was he


incompetent? Michael Dugher is a very good colleague and he will


serve the Labour Party well know from the backbenches, as he has done


over many years from the front benches. After all that has happened


this week, we retain a Shadow Cabinet, a Labour top team, that is


a broad team. The team that I joined on that basis, and that spirit of a


broad church remains. That is something I am pleased about, and


together, we can do the job we have been asked to do, because we are not


just Labour's Shadow Cabinet, we are the official opposition. The clue is


in the name. It is our job to expose what the government is doing. That


is my intention and Jeremy Corbyn's intention. Other members of the


Shadow Cabinet, Charlie Falconer, have said we need to draw line under


last week's events. Would you have stayed in the Shadow


Cabinet if Hilary Benn had been sacked? I am not going to get drawn


into nit-picking... It is a huge question because we were told 11


Shadow Cabinet ministers had threatened to resign. You had been


named in the number of reports as one of them, were you? It is a here


political situation. Hilary Benn remains... The Shadow Cabinet


remained intact as a broad team. My views were not sought nor offered.


This is a matter for Jeremy Corbyn, he is the leader of the Labour Party


and it is up to him to make decisions about the team and the


Shadow Cabinet. One of the new members of your team is Emily corn


bread, Shadow Defence Secretary. She says she does not know why Jeremy


Corbyn made her Shadow Defence Secretary. Do you? Again it is not


my view. I look forward to working with Emily and the rest of the


Shadow Cabinet to develop those policies going forward. One of them


is about the defence of our country and we will have a robust process,


and very detailed process, where we put forward the argument and look at


the evidence and the research and we will build a really good policy. Let


me ask you about an issue on this. A lot of the reason people see why she


has been appointed is quite clear. Your leader is against Trident and


always has been, he put Ken Livingstone in charge of the Trident


review, he now has a Shadow Defence Secretary opposed to Trident. It is


obvious that he is moving to end Labour's support for the nuclear


deterrent, is it not? You have got a very detailed policy process that we


will go through. It is not just a matter for the Shadow Cabinet, it is


a matter for the national policy forum. I am not a unilateralist, I


think we should maintain an independent, ongoing nuclear


deterrent. My question to you was... My question was is it not clear that


Jeremy Corbyn wants to move your party to a unilateral nuclear


disarmament position? That is his position, but let's see how this


process goes forward. I have not had a discussion with him about Trident


at all and we have not had a discussion in the Shadow Cabinet


about this topic yet either. We have a clear policy making process. In my


experience of these things, it never turns out to be as binary as


everybody wants it to be. As you proceed and set out your argument


and case and look at the evidence, as you commission research and try


to build alliances, not just within the Shadow Cabinet, but within the


trade union membership, you compromise and your position changes


and you get a policy that everyone can get behind and in my experience


that is what will happen. You are either for or against having nuclear


arms and labour fought the 1983 election on a unilateral disarmament


tickets and lost by a landslide. You have said you are in favour of


Trident. Would you resign from the Shadow Cabinet if labour comes out


for nuclear disarmament? I know you want this to be an easy decision. I


would just like an answer, Lucy Powell. Let's see where we get to.


If the Labour position becomes Mr Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn's


position, if that becomes your official policy, would you stay in


the Cabinet? I would be very surprised after all the discussion


we go through, after all aspects of the Labour Party, I would be very


surprised if we got to a position where the Labour Party policy was


one of unilateral disarmament. If it was, what would you do? We will see


when we get there, but I really do not think we will get there. I am


doing pretty badly this morning since every question has yet to


elicit an answer. I am getting better at batting you off. You


either on who is telling the viewers you are batting me off. I want to be


on your programme topic about what is happening to junior doctors. Stop


playing for time. Ask me about education and health. There are


reports this morning and Mr McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor


already referred to this, that Jeremy Corbyn's people want to


policy-making from the Shadow Cabinet to the Labour National


Executive Committee, not even the policy forum, just the executive


committee. Do you support that move? I do not think that is going to


happen. Any changes to Labour Party policy-making process, as those on


the left will know better than anybody because they are the holders


of the rule book, they will know that changes like that can only be


made at conference by changing the rule book of the Labour Party. We


have a very consensual policy-making process. Will the National Executive


Committee be the policy forum? No, that is not their role. We have got


a policy forum that could be improved in the way it engages with


outside experts and party members and the public and it could be


improved and Angela Eagle is looking that at that at the moment. But we


have a very robust and complex system, but to get to the right


policy-making process, and I know those of you in the media what it to


be really simple, but it is not. Was it consensual for the Shadow


Chancellor to describe the progress pressure group as having, quote, a


right-wing, Conservative agenda? I do not think his comments were right


or helpful. The best thing we can do now at the end of this week that we


have had is to put an end to the escalation of factionalism and name


calling and move on together to do the job that we need to do, which is


to be an effective government. You said today there are big issues


around Europe, junior doctors going on strike for the first time in 40


years and we have got an important job to do that my constituents


expect us to be doing. The last thing they want, and if there is


anything that Jeremy's leadership when taught us is that this


internal, talking about each other and the factions and so on, that is


what the public hate. They want big vision and big ideas and policies


for the future. When I ask you about policy ideas you will not give me an


answer. There cannot be a bigger idea than whether or not the Labour


Party is moving towards unilateral nuclear disarmament. We have just


had a huge chat about that. Ask me about education and the floods, the


economy that needs to change for working people. Ask me about the


crisis that is hitting families at the same time David Cameron is


making a speech about families and his government is doing the opposite


of supporting families. Ask me some of those things. On families are you


disappointed that Alison McGovern, the chair of progress, has resigned


from the policy forum on child poverty? It is a shame because


Alison has got a huge amount to offer. I have known her for many


years before both of us were Labour MPs and she has been a long-standing


campaigner on issues of child poverty and international


development and how we can change the economy to make it work for


working people. I hope Allison continues to make a contribution to


the Labour Party and I am sure she will, she is an effective


parliamentarian. I know from speaking to her that the last thing


she wants is all this attention that she is getting today and she was to


move on and draw a line and what has happened and realign our fire


knocked on each other, but on the Tories and on this government that


is doing a terrible job of running this country. Let me return to Emily


Thornberry. A year ago she accepted ?14,500 donation from a law firm


which has been condemned by an enquiry for making false allegations


against British soldiers which were wholly without merit, in the words


of the enquiry. Now she is Shadow Defence Secretary should she


returned that money? I do not know anything about that, I do not know


about the law firm or the nature of the sponsorship and how it was given


or what she is doing, but I am sure she will come on this programme and


you can interrogate her about these issues as you happen to me the past.


Very well, let's hope I will do better next time. Goodbye.


Now, after last-ditch talks broke up on Friday without agreement


a strike by Junior doctors, the first in over 40 years,


It will lead to the cancellation of thousands of appointments


and operations and the Government argues


So what's prompted this virtually unprecedented action by Doctors?


The Health Secretary is the star of a high-stakes medical drama.


The supporting cast, junior doctors, the thousands of staff who finished


medical school but are not consultants yet.


It is over big changes to their contracts, from rotas


to pay, changes which are much needed, according to the government,


and their supporters in places like right of centre think tanks.


It has wanted to move towards more of the seven-day week,


which actually, I think that ambition is shared


across the medical workforce, including junior doctors,


and it wants to change the so-called pay progression,


the way that junior doctors get paid more just for being in office


for longer, just as they are doing to the rest of the public sector,


so I think they were absolutely right to start this


But the doctors are furious about it.


Both sides have been negotiating for months,


most recently on Friday, when the gap between them


Let's look at some of the concessions made


They want Saturday to be considered a normal working day.


Initially they said antisocial hours which come with extra pay would not


But that has been rolled back to 7:00pm.


The Department of Health has also promised to introduce so-called


guardians who will monitor that doctors are not forced to work


They will have the power to fine NHS trusts who break the rules,


and the Government reckons most junior doctors will actually see


Jeremy Hunt says that agreement has been reached in 15 out of 16 areas,


but I've spoken to someone on the junior doctors' negotiating


team who told me that the number of unresolved issues


Nadia is an anaesthetist at a London Hospital.


She will be a consultant soon and is worried for the junior


doctors who will follow in her footsteps.


They will probably find themselves working more weekends,


They would find their shifts much more erratic, much less compatible


with having a normal life, which would affect the working lives


of thousands of junior doctors who have families and children


in school, and they would struggle with that.


It would also affect patients, having erratic working lives,


erratic working hours, is proven not to be good


for anyone's health, and there are lots of studies that


If this contract goes through, there is a high likelihood


that is going to be the situation and those people will be in charge


More than 70 junior doctors from hospitals along


It is a repeat of 1975, the last time that junior


On Tuesday, this generation of medics will provide only


Another two strikes are coming with plans for no junior doctors


This issue has even made it into the charts when an NHS choir


One of the campaigners behind it says the government is not


seeing the real problems in the health service.


There are not enough staff, this is not in one hospital,


this is every hospital in the country, there are not enough


staff to deal with the demands in A


There are not enough GPs, and GPs are leaving our health


service, A doctors are leaving the health service.


These are the key issues which need to be addressed,


and they need to be addressed now, not after this contract negotiation


or as part of a pay envelope, or any other speak the government


Jeremy Hunt is convinced that a more seven-day NHS is the way


But it looks like there could be plenty of cliffhangers


Now, we asked for an interview with the doctors' union,


the BMA, and the Department for Health but neither


But we're joined now by the former Conservative MP and Health Secretary


He now chairs the NHS Confederation which represents NHS Trusts.


Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Our BMA militants spoiling for a


fight, or has Jeremy Hunt bungled the negotiations and provoke


hard-working doctors to stop work? The last thing patients want is a


long running commentary about the behaviour of the negotiating


parties. It is disappointing that we have got a strike action plan for


this week, but what we need to see is the parties back in the


negotiating room dealing with the detail that your report just


highlighted. That can only be dealt with round the negotiating table.


The overwhelming majority of doctors to back an unprecedented action of


strikes, including a full strike in the third one, hardly suggests the


negotiations have been handled with aplomb. What has been going on


within the negotiating room is addressing the detail. Any pay


negotiation, as you very well know, covers a mass of complex detail.


There is a commitment from the BMA and the employers and the government


to deliver better performance over the weekend and we have seen. We


have seen in our hospitals that there is an issue around excess


mortality. The government is right to address that issue. This is part


of the response to that issue and that is a commitment that is shared


by all the negotiators. It cannot be that accepted as they are going on


strike. The government claims there are 11,000 unnecessary weekend


deaths because of book cover. That is just a propaganda figure. It is


right that the excess mortality is not just around we can cover, that


is true. That figure is a propaganda figure. There is an analysis that


shows there is excess mortality in British hospitals at weekends. That


is an issue that the BMA, the doctors, the clinical leaders of the


health service and the management leaders and the government from a


policy point of view all understand needs to be reassessed. Except the


report comes up with the 11000 and you said it is not possible to


determine the extent to which these excess deaths may be preventable and


it would be misleading to assume they were. It is a figure the


Secretary of State uses all the time. Rash and misleading. I am not


using it, but I say there is a need to look seriously on behalf of


patients if there is evidence of excess mortality at the weekend. We


know there is excess mortality. But that is not the right figure. Should


we simply sit back and do nothing? If the figure is not right perhaps


the Secretary of State should not be using it. Is it not wholly


unrealistic to implement a full seven-day week cover in the NHS


without an increase in overall NHS resources? That is what the


government announced in the comprehensive spending review before


Christmas. What is unrealistic... That is simply to keep the NHS


ticking over, it is not to pay for seven days a week cover. It is


unrealistic to imagine we can deliver the kind of health and care


services we want in our country without addressing some of the


fundamental issues around Funding. Let us look at the funding.


The government is trying to implement seven-day week cover on


health spending. That is essentially unchanged in real terms. Look at the


health spending, as a share of our GDP, among the wealthier countries,


we spend 8.5% of our GDP on health, that includes private health. These


other countries, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, are all close


to 11%. Given that we already spend less, how can we hope to have a


seven day a week NHS on 8.5% of GDP? You dropped about slogans, can I


pick up on this slogan, most people know perfectly well that we already


have a seven-day NHS. What you say about this? The funding of the


health service, that is precisely one of the issues with which I


agree, it needs to be addressed. On a cross-party basis. That is one of


the things I learned as chair of the cross-party health committee in the


last parliament. Can we afford things like seven-day week full


cover. That is what is being proposed with that level of health


spending. Only island spends less than we do. I accept that there is


an issue with excess mortality at weekends. What I do not accept is


that we have a seven-day week NHS. Do you accept that we need to get


closer to France and Germany than we are the moment on spending? I do


agree that not just in this country, but right across the world over a


very long period, as societies get richer they spend more of their


income on health and care services. But we have to move away from


thinking that the health service is an island. It is part of the care


system and we have to look at that from a holistic pieces across health


and care. That is why think we need a cross-party review in the medium


and long-term. You're doing a commission and a hope you keep us


appraised of that. It is coming up to 11:40pm. We say goodbye to


viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday politics in Scotland.


Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.


Coming up on the programme: As David Cameron continues to press


for reform of the EU how do politicians here view


the prospect of a European referendum?


Help for first-time buyers, and THAT reshuffle -


we'll be speaking to the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian Murray live.


So, a new year begins - and it's another election year.


Voters go to the polls to choose their MSPs in May.


But the prospect of a second national vote this year is looming


increasingly large - could we have an EU


David Cameron gave his ministers a free vote on the issue this week


and told the Andrew Marr programme this morning he remains hopeful


of making a deal next month on new terms for Britain's


With a growing crop of campaigns on both sides of the argument,


it was announced today that the former Labour MP Frank Roy


will be Campaign Director in Scotland for Britain Stronger In


Europe. Natalie Higgins reports.


2016 is just ten days old, but David Cameron has already resumed his


seemingly unending to review it. He is trying to persuade leaders to


back his version of reforms for the EU. That means opting out of further


political integration, more protection for non-EU countries and


restricting benefits for EU workers who come to the UK. In Scotland,


Ukip will be campaigning to leave but most parties are officially for


staying in. However Labour MPs will be allowed a free vote.


I think the more distinctive view, the most important view, is to put


forward the case for a corporation generally, and a corporation that is


possible within Europe, not just on terrorism and security and jobs, but


on energy, to use the wind, wave and solar power that we can use in


Scotland as part of the European great, cooperation on trade, or


receives International aid and development. First Minister


meanwhile is adamant that Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU


against its well. But if the EU as a whole does vote for Brexit then


Scotland would be an uncharted territory.


The Scottish Government could say we want another independence referendum


and want to stay in the EU. Westminster Mile not agree with


that, then there will be another conflict. You might find that the


parliament will say, we will not repeal EU laws, we do not agree with


you, and then there would be a stalemate while Scotland with block


Britain leaving the EU. The last, intriguing option, might be that


Scotland would leave Europe with the rest of the UK but say, we want


devolution of a lot of the EU policies so that we can negotiate a


closer relationship with muscles than you, the UK, are planning to


negotiate. The truth is nobody knows the extent


to which those waters which are at the moment opposed to independence,


how much they would be willing to change their view is the UK were to


vote to leave the European Union. But certainly any very committed


unionist who is really thinking about, which direction do I want


this to go and perhaps is not completely committed to going


outside of the European Union, might ask themselves, defying courage


people to leave, maybe I will be bringing about the break-up of


Britain. With the EU negotiations potentially


been concluded as early as next month there is growing confidence


there will be a vote this year, possibly as early as June. That


would mean less talk on the continent and more debates here at


home. Labour north and south of the border


will campaign to remain in the EU, although MPs and MSPs


will have a free vote. But there is a history


of Euroscepticism from the far left. In the 1975 referendum to decide


whether Britain should stay in the European Economic Community,


as it was then called, both Tony Benn and Michael Foot


campaigned prominently Under Tony Blair, opposition


to the EU dwindled, but its current UK leader's position has


been more ambivalent. Jeremy Corbyn has voted in favour


of social measures and those As recently as September last year


there was a question of whether he'd favour continuing


membership of the EU? Well, to answer that,


and other questions, the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian


Murray joins us from our Edinburgh


studio. Are all of the MSPs in labour here


pro-euro? Think the vast majority of not just Labour members but Labour


supporters are pro-Europe. We see the benefits of being part of... But


do you see any Labour MSPs campaigning to leave? And do not


know of any campaigning to leave. There are some MPs who are


campaigning. They are running that Out campaign. We are broad church of


a party. But Scottish Labour will be putting lots of resources behind


staying in the European Union because it is in Scotland's


interests to do so. As far as you are aware, you will all be


campaigning to stay in? As far as I am aware, the entirety of Scottish


Labour will be campaigning to stay in. Do not know any colleagues who


will be of the view of wanting to leave. They will have a free vote in


any case and that is the right thing to do. We will be campaigning very


hard, it is in Scotland's national interest to do so. Would you be


happy to campaign with conservatives who are in favour of staying in? We


have set up our own distinct campaign, run by Alan Johnson at


national level. We will be campaigning with the Labour Party,


for the Labour Party, to stay in. Other parties will have their own


campaigns. When you run through the referendum campaign there will be


issues we will campaign on together and separately, but this is a


distinct Labour campaign to keep Scotland and the United Kingdom in


the EU. You would be happy to share a platform with conservatives who


share your views? We will ship platforms was also the parties,


including the SNP, the Greens -- we will be sharing platforms. There can


only be one official Out and In campaign. What do you make of the


SNP argument that shoot the eventuality arise that Scotland


voted to leave, but the UK voted to stay in, that that would be


justification for another independence referendum? The SNP


have had between 15 and 20 justifications for another


referendum. We should all sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of


keeping Scotland and the UK in the EU. That is what we should all be


campaigning on with one voice because it is good for Scottish job


and Scottish corporations. -- jobs. Should that come to pass, how


strongly do you feel about it? Do you think the British government


would be entitled to say, no, you have just had a vote on independence


and have faltered to stay in the UK and if the UK votes to leave that is


it, you cannot have another referendum? The other question is


true. What if the rest of the UK voted to stay in the European Union


and Scotland voted to leave. This is a vote for the UK Parliament as the


state that has the membership. That is what we are fighting to keep end.


We will be fighting to make sure that it is larger than one vote to


end. -- to win. We want to put this to bed as an issue so that we can


start cooperating in Europe to get what we want. Whatever scenario we


talk about, there is no justification in your view for


another independence referendum? I cannot see where the justification


would come from. On all of these issues, the economic case for


independence is worse now than it was last year. We have to do what is


in the best interest of Scotland and the Scottish people, that is why we


are campaigning to stay end, it is the right thing to do. RU still a


member of the Progress grip? Yes. How did you feel about it been


described as part of our right-wing clique by the Chancellor of the


Exchequer -- Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer? They need to ramp


down the rhetoric. We are on Labour Party fighting to oppose the


Conservative Government and when elections in Scotland in May. Some


of the words that he chosen that particular interview were


unnecessary and, indeed, you should be trying to unite the party rather


than ramping up rhetoric against embers of the party who are loyal


servants of Labour Party and their constituents and opponents of this


austerity Conservative Government. How did you feel


about Michael Dugher been fired? He will be a stronger thorn in the


Conservatives's sides from the backbenches perhaps. I went to give


can solidarity to some colleagues who had lost their jobs because that


is the rate thing to do because they are good parliamentarians and close


colleagues. You're close colleagues and friends have been sacked and you


have been described as part of the hard right by a man who is the


Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer. In this process, did you at any


point considered doing what some of your other colleagues dead and


quitting the Cabinet? No, we need a strong Scottish voice in the Shadow


Cabinet, we have a big job to do here in Scotland. My only concern at


the moment is to make sure we can put forward a policy platform for


the 2016 Scottish elections that is bald and positive and radical and


will take the fight to the Scottish Government and will win as many


votes and seat is possible whilst holding this dreadful Conservative


Government to account. I have no intention of resigning from the


Shadow Cabinet because we are part of the team, we have a big job to do


as the official opposition in this country and that is why we are


working together as a team. Some of the language that has been used


should be toned down slightly and we need to get back to doing what we


should be doing, and that is being the official opposition. Do you


think Jeremy Corbyn can win the next general election?


Jeremy Corbyn is trying to do politics differently. It is not


everyone's cup of tea. He wants to very carefully go through a policy


development process and go through using his Shadow Cabinet and Shadow


ministerial teams. He wants to involve as many people as he can and


he is doing that in a very considered way. It is a new way of


doing politics that we all have to consider. Then he get that kind of


policy platform in place and gets the new policy in place that


everyone wants to see we will see the benefit of that. This new policy


that Kezia Dugdale promote with this week, basically giving money to


first-time buyers, this was money that was supposedly going to be used


to help people who would the affected by George Osborne's cuts to


tax credits. He has since abandoned those. I struggle to see the logic


of saying money you mark to help the police in society should now be


given as a bunk to people who want to buy a house. I think you're being


slightly unkind to this holiday. It was bold and radical. It is not the


bond to people looking to buy a house but to support first-time


buyers who are looking to get on the property ladder. People who qualify


for this will already have been in a thief to buy ice that set up by the


Tories and the Tories and they could have got 3000 homes from the


conservative government already. It is saying we will do double poorly


in Scotland. We have to be careful when using words like bung. The air


passenger duty money was allocated to tax credits and that is no longer


required to be used cause of the U-turn won in the house of lords.


That money is available to be reallocated and Kezia Dugdale has


reallocated that. The second thing is, let me just run through the


hypothetical of a couple living together. If erect were to put ?100


each into a help to buy ice they would have enough within two years


to have it topped up to ?9,000 which would give each couple ?3000 each


from Kezia Dugdale's policy. What is this got to do with helping the


least well off in society? 96% of first-time buyers ie property less


than ?250,000 so this is the kind of deposit you require. It is


aspirational in terms of those who want to get on the property market.


This is the right thing to do to help them. I think it is important.


This isn't just about getting first-time buyers on the property


market but about putting money into the economy. It is nothing better to


stimulate the economy than people buying their first home. I am


tempted to buy the same question again but I do not have time.


For Unionists there's an added pressure in all this.


Some may be Eurosceptic but worried that if a majority in Britain vote


in favour of leaving but Scotland elects to remain part of the EU it


could trigger a second independence referendum here and tear


Here's Nicola Sturgeon talking last year about that eventuality.


I have said before and I repeat again today that it Scotland was to


find itself facing an EU exit that we hadn't voted for a second


referendum may be unstoppable. It may be a material change to the


circumstances in which last year's vote was taken. We will be


campaigning for the UK to remain within the European Union.


Well, to talk about that we have two Conservative politicians.


In a moment we'll speak to the Conservative MEP Ian Duncan


but first, from our Aberdeen studio, is MSP Alex Johnstone who supports


the Prime Minister's endeavours to renegotiate terms.


Alex, have you made up your mind which way you are going to vote? I


have not. It depends entirely on the outcome of the negotiations the row


minister is involved in. We have serious problems in Europe at the


moment. These are obvious to anyone who watches news broadcasts. Our


direction in Europe is inappropriate at this time which is why we need


you can bring to be successful in these negotiations. I think my red


line is a rather sense of direction. I see problems, political problems


across Europe where the refugee crisis, for example, has affected


relationships between countries and affected the article opinion within


countries. I see the economic crisis we were talking about before this


happened, particularly the state of the Greek economy and other smaller


populations particularly in the south of Europe desperately needing


assistance and attention. I see a Europe that is not designed to


properly deal with that problem and written needs not to be right into


that kind of situation against their will. I want a Europe that has a


different sense of direction. One that is about opening up trade,


competition, opportunity and not providing an economic and political


straitjacket that will benefit some countries and disadvantage any more.


If you decide David Cameron has not met those objectives you just


outlined, will you campaign to leave the European Union? If we get to a


position with it is obviously disadvantageous for Britain to


remain within the EU then I think it is all our duty to ensure that we do


the right thing and I would be repaired to support a vote to take


us out of the YouTube in union if it was a disadvantage for us to stay


in. -- the European Union. I want to stay in the European Union and I


want David Cameron to achieve a deal. Do you know if any of your


colleagues will be campaigning for exit? At this stage I would be


surprised if any of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament declared


that they would be campaigning for a noble. -- reinvent. The evidence


seems to be that conservative voters are split on the issue. If you are


the Conservatives aborted in Scotland I do feel very strongly


written should leave the EU who, given that Ruth Davidson has told


this programme several weeks ago that she would campaign for a yes


vote irrespective of what David Cameron negotiated, who will


represent these Tory voters who want out? It is entirely important that


people will have their own opinions. What we have to remember is that it


is equally irresponsible for anyone to take a position in advance of


these negotiations whether we should be in or out, particularly those who


find themselves in a position where they want Britain to be stronger


within Europe. That is why it is so important that we wait for


negotiations to take place, find out the deal that David Cameron is going


to achieve and we vote on that deal and not on a broader principle which


is not defined within David Cameron's negotiations. Before I let


you go, with another hat on, you are a north-east MP, you have had


terrible floods up there. We are also a farmer. Briefly tell us how


the clean-up is going and whether you think farmers in particular need


any more help from the government. One of the particular problems you


is that farmers are not getting much help from the government at all. As


you may be aware, most subsidy payments were gathered together many


years ago into a single annual farm raiment. For many farmers, the


majority in Scotland, they have not received last year's payment yet.


They are at a particularly difficult point and are trying to recover from


weather-related problems. It has to be said also that if you are farming


in an alien not affected by flooding, the weather has been


appalling and there have been impacted on people not directly


affected by flooding to but those new Zealanders who have been


directly affected by this could have seen their business washed away


entirely. That is why we need more work from the government to make


sure resources allocated by the UK Government which have come to


Scotland through the Barnett formula are properly distributed. Hum of the


things said by the First Minister yesterday suggests these things are


happening but we did see a position earlier in the week where farmers in


Cumbria were receiving support when people in Dumfries were not. Thank


you for joining us. Listening to that is Conservative


MEP Dr Ian Duncan, who's I think you intend to campaign to


stay in Europe at a much irrespective of anything David


Cameron comes up with? We have made significant progress during this


period. I am a member of the European Parliament and it has been


any 2% reduction in the laws passing through that particular payment.


That is because of Britain doing less better. We are making


substantial progress in reforming the EU. We are no longer standing


alone when it comes to reform. If you look at other nations the word


reform is now the forefront of their campaigning. You have actually


gotten government now a number of parties who are ashamed and driving


forward to reform the cause, after all, look where the EU is right now.


It is calm. It is struggling to deal with its own feet of Rob 's. Whether


in the Eurozone itself, the prices of the Mediterranean countries or


the recent crises of migration. The bottom line is, if I asked you what


are your red lines for David Cameron to negotiate? Your answer would be


the are not any? There are red lines. I need to be sure keeping the


pound is safe and we would not be compelled ever closer towards the


union with other states. We need to be able to trust that going forward


what we have now is protected and we can see that reform on the table but


the leveraged the Prime Minister has secured by these negotiations and


the referendum coming up it has led to a sea change in Brussels. The


things you have mentioned can be pretty much met by some fine words.


The issue of, for example, delays to benefit payments to immigrants, that


is a much more hard issue. Is that a red line for you or do you not give


further? Everything can be met by fine words but it is the force of


law, we will need two CDs fine words enshrined in something binding, not


just upon the UK but upon the role of the EU, only then can we be sure


and save that we do have detection from being out with the Eurozone,


and with the Schengen area. We will not consider the centrifugal force


Dragon as ever closer to the centre. This is not just about Britain,


member states across the EU are looking for the ability to do things


differently, less and better. At the forefront is the United Kingdom. Do


you think this should be a referendum on Europe? You think it


is a good thing to have it? Is it a good thing to have it? I think the


leveraging the EU has given more power in the negotiations. The SNP


and Scottish Government have top about, should, by any chance,


Britain vote no to Europe and Scotland vote yes, they would see


that as justification for another independence referendum. What do you


make of that argument? The SNP a national list party and they assert


independence is a declared objective. I think any excuse would


be fine to have that there can referendum. The Scottish National


party and government did not give an to Orkney, Shetland, Dumfries and


the oil anywhere else should they wish to remain part of the UK. The


issue was that we remained part of the United Kingdom and this issue of


whether the EU with the good, bad or indifferent, was very clearly aired.


I do not think we can say we would be unsure what would happen if there


was a referendum. We would be bound by the will of the people. Should


that eventuality arise, do you think it would be justified for David


Cameron and the British government, even Cameron has already said it


would not be another independence referendum as long as yet the yen,


would he be justified in those circumstances to say you have had


your independence referendum and voted to stay in Britain. You might


have voted to stay in the EU and we voted to go out but I will simply


not allow another independence referendum? It was very clear during


the last referendum we were told it would be once during a referendum


but it is fast approaching. I do not doubt a party which thinks they are


better out with the UK will continue to push for another referendum.


voted right back should they say, if you want one then you can have


another one? My opinion is that there will not be another


independence referendum, that is the statement from the first Minister.


They do not think that she will say that there will never be one, but at


the same time we have one referendum coming and I do believe that we will


vote to stay in and therefore the second question will not arise. At


the nationalist government you will find another reason to have a second


independence referendum, that is only a matter of time.


It's been a few weeks since we were last here.


Let's have a look at what's been happening and what's coming up


Joining me is the Times Scotland editor, Lindsay McIntosh,


and the Observer columnist Kevin McKenna.


Lindsay, just on Europe, suddenly out of the blue everyone is talking


about having this in a few weeks or months rather than next year. Yes,


people are talking about June or October, September time. All of this


is dependent on the kind of deal David Cameron is to get in this


deadly meeting. If you can come out of that with something then he might


say, go to the polls on June -- surgery meeting. It also presumably


depends on the opinion polls? If you came back and said, I have a deal,


and it was a big majority for staying in in the opinion polls, he


might be tempted to say, let us just, right now, whereas if it is


less predictable he might say, let us have a long campaign. He will


look at the independence referendum campaign and issues that arose from


a long campaign. That did his side and no favours. If you're looking at


a site which has the wage to start with, they are interested in having


a quick poll. Kevin, I know you do not necessarily regard yourself as a


conservative vote who is in favour of leaving the EU, but the do


deserve representation and listening to her two representatives there it


does not look like they will get any. As you rightly observed


earlier, the Tory vote in Scotland seems to be divided on this issue,


there does not seem to be a clear majority one way or another amongst


the rank-and-file Tories. But if you believe Ian Murray there will not be


anybody standing up for a Labour voters... What David Cameron was


seeing on Andrew Marr this morning, there does not appear to be any


lead. David Cameron as saying, my government is going to campaign to


stay in Europe, so all of the machinery of government will go for


it, but you can have a free vote. But it seems to me that senior


Conservative figures seem to be afraid to be too extreme one way or


the other when they try to watch their language. If you are of two


mains as a Conservative, there is very little leadership either way,


there is no prevailing argument. This thing about, we will see what


sort of deal David Cameron comes back with, we saw David Cameron


during the week on first name terms with the Hungarian President, this


being the Hungarian President who set himself up as some kind of


Christian despot, invading Christendom and the West against the


hordes of Islam a few months ago. I think it is getting quite confused


and again, if I was a Conservative, I would be saying, you need to do


better than that either side if you're going to get my vote one way


or another. Lindsay, the Labour reshuffle, or you more in Pewsey


Astec abated then Ian Murray? His language was interesting. John


McDonnell coming out in front of the cameras and criticising process,


saying things like right wing clique. He was seeing, we need to


halt the rhetoric. He was the only possibility for the shadow Scottish


Secretary, he can come out and say, this is what I think, without fear


of his position. Have we resolved anything? I can see the narrow


issue, that of Jeremy Corbyn once Labour to be unilateralist then he


has taken place in the rate the rich. At this basic problem that the


Conservatives have, is that really been resolved? Has been a lot of


backbiting and briefing against people and it has not looked great


and the public. A lot of language being used, words like disloyalty,


it does not look right at all. What Jeremy Corbyn has done is a lot of


empire building. He has got a stronger Shadow Cabinet, for good


empire building. He has got a look like a stronger power in arenas


like these ones. This is look like a stronger power in arenas


recently, Kevin. The other way of look like a stronger power in arenas


People inside politics care about this,


great, we have a left-wing Labour Party. This was clearly flagged up


with the result and conduct of the Labour leadership campaign. Jeremy


Corbyn was not even expected to stand, and there were even less


expectations that he would win by the huge majority that he did win


by. Even then it was flagged up that the overwhelming majority of


ordinary rank-and-file members in the country were backing him, but we


ordinary rank-and-file members in knew he would have a problem


the Parliamentary Party. We know that he has a


the Parliamentary Party. We know Labour Party. People say,


the Parliamentary Party. We know one thing, but these


the Parliamentary Party. We know understand that one thing is having


enough people to have a big mass demonstrations not the same as


winning elections. But the Prince country are saying, this is


interesting. Win we knew he would have a battle on his party with the


leftovers of Tony Blair. This is being played out. Many people will


say, what is the problem with trying to impose your authority, influence


and command on your own party and cabinet? Some might say that the


reason why there was a three-day process in the reshuffle was because


he was being too nice. He was being too considerate, taking


he was being too nice. He was being many people's views. I would not


have expected David Cameron to give house room to anybody who showed the


slightest sign of opposition within his Cabinet on serious issues.


Jeremy Corbyn is just doing what he was or was going to do, it will take


him off while and it will be at least two elections, possibly three,


both in Scotland and England, before Labour will be in a position to


govern anyway. There is a view which is taken by many Labour MPs that,


look, all you no actress Labour Party will never when the general


election -- unilateralist Labour Party. It was most effective in


1997. That is not the party Jeremy Corbyn is being forward now. What


happens to those people? That is not the Labour Party for them under


Jeremy Corbyn. I think there is a lot of years in the wilderness for


them. As Kevin said, would you agree with him that it is at least two


elections away? It is looking like it at the moment, although goodness


knows what is happening in that party at the moment, who might be


coming forward. We are seeing names being bandied about as potential


equivalents to Jeremy Corbyn. It will depend whether that arm of the


party can get organisation behind it. That is all we have time for


this week. I will be back next week. Until then, from all of us on the


programme, goodbye.


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer discuss EU renegotiation with David Davis, Labour under Jeremy Corbyn with Lucy Powell, and a seven-day health service with NHS Confederation chair Stephen Dorrell. Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Helen Lewis of the New Statesman and Nick Watt of the Guardian discuss the papers.

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