Browse content similar to 10/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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David Cameron says he's hopeful for a deal next month | :00:35. | :00:44. | |
on a new relationship between Britain and the European Union. | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
Is momentum building for a referendum this summer? | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
He sacked two ministers prompting three to resign in protest - | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
but is Jeremy Corbyn in a more powerful position at the end | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
of a tumultuous week for the Labour Party? | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
We'll speak to Shadow Cabinet Minister Lucy Powell. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Junior doctors defy Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and say | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
they will go ahead with their strike, starting Tuesday. | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
What's prompted their first walkout in 40 years? | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
If the Prime Minister's optimism over the EU referendum shared by | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
Labour and other politicians here? We're ten days into 2016 and we've | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
not sacked them and they've not resigned yet, so with me, | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
the best and the brightest political panel in the business, Nick Watt, | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So David Cameron toured Europe last | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
week continuing his re-negotiation of Britain's EU membership | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
ahead of the referendum. He knows that whatever he comes back | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
with will not persuade So they will be free | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
to campaign for an exit. But this morning the Prime Minister | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
made it clearer than ever that he would be campaigning | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
to stay in the EU. My aim is clear, the best of both | :02:06. | :02:15. | |
worlds for Britain, the massive prize of sorting out what frustrates | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
us about Europe, but staying in a reformed Europe. The prize is closer | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
than it was and I will work around the clock to get that done. The | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
government will not be neutral about this issue with people on one side | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
or the other, my intention is that at the conclusion of the | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
negotiation, the Cabinet reaches a clear recommendation for the British | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
people on what we will do. I hope that we'll be staying in a reformed | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
European Union, because I have got a good negotiation for Britain. At | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
that point, clear government position, members of the | :02:51. | :03:03. | |
Cabinet, ministers with long-standing, long-held views on a | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
different basis, they will be able to campaign. | :03:06. | :03:06. | |
And we're joined now by the eurosceptic Conservative MP, | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
Who should lead the out campaign? I do not think personalities matter. | :03:09. | :03:19. | |
The Prime Minister matters because he has a big personality. For the | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
out campaign, you have Nigella Lawson, other people. No doubt you | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
will have four five Cabinet ministers. Does it not need to be a | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
better known public figure than Nigel Lawson, who was Chancellor in | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
the 1980s, or Chris Grayling or even yourself? No, people will not make | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
their decision on the basis of which pretty face is leading the campaign. | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
their decision on the basis of which They will make it on one basis | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
alone, will it be good for my job or They will make it on one basis | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
bad for my job? The argument They will make it on one basis | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
other bogus numbers that come up, They will make it on one basis | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
will be about my job, is my industry protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa | :04:03. | :04:04. | |
May? There will be lots protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
in Westminster, should Boris lead, it will not matter. What matters is | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
the it will not matter. What matters is | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
be decided before the conclusion of the negotiation. Nigel Farage has | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
had a torrid time since the general election, culminating in the | :04:24. | :04:25. | |
assassination attempt that apparently was not. Is he a | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
liability to the leave campaign? No, probably not. He has about 3 million | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
people who are supporting him. Some of them in his party? He is his | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
party, to a large extent. I do not of them in his party? He is his | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
think is a liability, everyone knows what he and his party are like. | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
think is a liability, everyone knows he got lots of credibility? It has | :04:52. | :04:52. | |
slipped backwards he got lots of credibility? It has | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
election. I do not think the parties matter. The personalities do not | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
election. I do not think the parties matter. This will be a personal | :05:02. | :05:01. | |
decision. What percentage of matter. This will be a personal | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is a majority, I do not know what | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is tomorrow and there was no other | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
is that including the payroll vote? Yes. So two thirds of the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
Conservative Parliamentary party will vote to leave? Yes, if you did | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
it tomorrow. But you have to be in mind the dynamics. You, like me, | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
have lived through a lot of prime ministers and ministers returning | :05:36. | :05:36. | |
from They arrive on Monday at 330 and | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
declare their victory. We have no other information. None of it is | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
published, the decisions had been taken in private with no | :05:49. | :05:49. | |
journalists. There will be a sort taken in private with no | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
wave out of that. Out of that, taken in private with no | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
thirds will evaporate. Come the day, even 50% of the Conservative Party? | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
I should think so. How many Cabinet ministers will exercise their right | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
to campaign to leave? Not more ministers will exercise their right | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
half a dozen, 56 maybe. I cannot think of more. Iain Duncan Smith? | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, maybe Theresa May, maybe sad you jab it, certainly | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
Chris Grayling. Maybe Iain Duncan Smith. What is your reaction this | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
morning to the story Smith. What is your reaction this | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
officials in Downing Street are vetting or altering speeches by | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
ministers to tone down Eurosceptic comments? My speeches go back 20 | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
years or so. Is this the start of the government machine getting | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
moving? Yes. There are three things David Cameron said that were | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
important. David Cameron made it plain that the government machine | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
will go crazy on one side of this side image. It has started. Nothing | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
unusual in that, by the way. David Cameron might get some sort of deal | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
which curtails in work benefits for migrants. Is that a game changer, | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
does it change it his way? He said, or something equally powerful, not | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
important at all. Why do people come from Romania to hear? They come | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
because the minimum wage is twice as big as the average wage in Rumania. | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
And about to get bigger. In 2020, according to the Treasury strategy, | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
tax credits will not matter, which is why they wanted to abolish them. | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
In 2020, this whole strategy will be relevant. What is your best guess | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
for the date of the referendum? Probably September this year. Not in | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
summer? It might, but they have limitations built into the law. If | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
they get it through in February, they might get the summer, but I do | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
not think they will get it through in February. Bear in mind they have | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
four basic claims, only one of which has really been talked about at the | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
moment. Some of the others, the parliamentary proposals, the defence | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
of the city, the euro, all of this, it will either be just words and not | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
matter, which is weird lips at the moment, or it will be serious. The | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
city basically needs a veto in European legislation relating to | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
financial services. If it does not get that, it is meaningless. If | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
David Cameron loses the referendum, does he have to resign as Prime | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Minister? That is the least important question. Is there an | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
answer? I do not know. Should they? Not necessarily, it depends on how | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
it goes with the terms. He said this morning there is no plans for a | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
British exit. This is disgraceful. You have two moderately likely | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
outcomes. We do not know which will be. There were no plans for Scottish | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
independence. I suspect there were. There are no plans for the British | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
exit and that is serious because it is a complicated operation to carry | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
out if it happens. We will be returning to you, David Davis, thank | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
you. Nick, there is no doubt that the | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
Prime Minister is gearing up to campaign disdain with he brings back | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
from Brussels. Absolutely, he is determined to keep Britain in the | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
European Union. His official languages that he wants to | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
renegotiate better terms and if he gets the right deal, he will keep | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
them, but the mask slip today when Andrew Marr asked about British | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
exit, the preparations for that, and he said it was not the right answer. | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
Today, the other interesting things he did was a reprieve is of the | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
Scottish referendum. He was saying that if you are -- that if you lost | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
the referendum he would not resign. He wants to get that message out | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
there because he wants to kill the idea of a link between his future | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
and the referendum results. With the Scottish referendum, in private they | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
prepared a resignation later. He made clear to Andrew Marr this | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
morning that the government machine is not going to be neutral, it will | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
back David Cameron. That is one of the reasons I would disagree with | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
David Davis and say that the out campaign needs a big figurehead. You | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
will have the full weight of an institutional machine behind the yes | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
vote. On the out said, we have Nigel Farage. He appeals to 3 million | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
voters, but not a majority. There is a responsible case to be made. That | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
is why someone like Boris Johnson will be pressured enormously to say | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
which side he will jump for. If David Davis is right, and at least | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
50% of the parliamentary party, including the payroll vote is going | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
to vote to leave, many will campaign to leave, that is a massive problem | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
for the Conservatives and David Cameron? The problem is especially | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
acute if the final result is so narrow that the result can be | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
plausibly attributed to a credible, sitting Conservative Prime Minister | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
having campaigned to remain in. If Eurosceptic backbenchers are Cabinet | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
minister can say, had David Cameron campaigned the other way, or less | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
lasciviously, we might have got our lifetime's ambition to leave the | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
European Union. If it is close, it will linger in the Tory party. It | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
introduces poison. My guess is that the party will fall apart. I am much | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
less certain than I was 18 months ago. They know they can govern for | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
another nine years. Have we change the constitution? I think the | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
presence of Germany Corbyn effectively guarantees the next | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
election. -- the presence of Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you. | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
So Jeremy Corbyn sacked two Shadow ministers and three resigned. | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
Now another Labour MP says she can no longer work with the party's | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
leadership in the wake of last week's reshuffle. | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
Alison McGovern has told this programme that she is resigning | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
from a policy review on child poverty after the pressure group | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
she chairs was described as "right wing" and "Conservative" | :12:12. | :12:13. | |
Labour say she's resigning from something that doesn't exist. | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
As Labour's internal divisions become more acrimonious, | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
can the different wings of the party continue to work with each other? | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
A new year, a new start, but still the fireworks. | :12:25. | :12:38. | |
But let's be honest, we have sort of got used to them. | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
There was that vote on Syria which saw 67 Labour MPs disagree | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
with their leader and vote with the government, | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
not least because of that speech from Hilary Benn. | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
Can I have a Green Clean Machine, please, with Siberian ginseng | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's new year resolution, we were led to believe, | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
was to detoxify his party, starting with a reshuffle. | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
Things had started appearing in some of the newspapers. | :13:08. | :13:09. | |
There was talk of revenge, a dish best served cold. | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
The leadership team denied any such briefing. | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
But nothing actually happened until Tuesday when Michael Dugher, | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
the then Shadow Culture Secretary tweeted, just been | :13:23. | :13:23. | |
The day rattled on but it was not until after midnight that | :13:24. | :13:32. | |
Pat McFadden was fired from his role as a Shadow Europe Minister. | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
Both were accused of disloyalty by the leadership. | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
What then followed was a raft of resignations. | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
The first was Jonathan Reynolds in the Shadow Transport team. | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Then the Shadow Foreign Office Minister, who picked our programme | :13:46. | :13:47. | |
I have just written to Jeremy Corbyn to resign from the front bench. | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
that I've seen being briefed at this morning, are simply not true. | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
Undoubtedly they will do that about other individuals, | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
undoubtedly they will do that about me. | :14:00. | :14:01. | |
Less than an hour later, Shadow Defence Minister Kevan Jones | :14:02. | :14:03. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's right-hand man, John McDonnell, also | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
We have had a few junior members resign today | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
and that is their right, but they do all come from a narrow | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
right wing clique within the Labour Party, based around | :14:18. | :14:19. | |
I do not think they have ever really accepted Jeremy's mandate. | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
Progress is seen broadly as the Blairite wing of the party. | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
By the time the Shadow Chancellor was making those comments, | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
I am told he was late for a meeting with the group's | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
Alison McGovern says he asked to take part in Labour's policy | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
review on the subject, a role from which the Sunday Politics can | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
reveal she now feels she has to resign. | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
I am there waiting to meet him to talk about it and all | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
the while he had gone to the television studio to call | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
the organisation that I am the chair of of having a hard right | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
We are all Labour members and we believe in having | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
That is what we are, nothing more, nothing less, | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
and I do not want to be on the television talking | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
about this, but I feel like I have been backed into a corner and I have | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
no other choice now but to stand up and say, | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
this is who we are and we should get on with the business of getting | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
The rumours have centred around one man, because of this. | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria. | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
But Hilary Benn kept his job as Shadow Foreign Secretary. | :15:29. | :15:30. | |
The BBC understands a number of Shadow Cabinet ministers had | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
Other new frontbenchers have defended their boss. | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
What Jeremy Corbyn has tried to do is to be consensual, to negotiate, | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
not to hurt people's feelings and get the right team, | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
This has not exactly been a happy new year for Labour. | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
One Shadow Cabinet minister told me the handling of this | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
Another former minister said it smacked of a leader more focused | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
on consolidating his power internally and he was not looking | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
It has left a bad taste in the mouths of a number of them. | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
Actually, can I have a coffee instead? | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
We're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Education Secretary, | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Was Jeremy Corbyn right to sack Michael | :16:19. | :16:29. | |
Dugher from the Shadow Cabinet? Good morning to you as well. It is good | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
to be zero. It has been a very difficult week for the Labour Party. | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
How can I top it off, by having a nice friendly chat with you about | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
the Labour Party? Was he right to sack Michael Dugher? I do not think | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
that after the difficult week we have had, I week which everybody | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
will be down to experience and learn the lessons from, that it is helpful | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
to the Labour Party, and indeed politics as a whole, for us to pick | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
through the events of that week. There is the moment to draw a line | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
under what has happened this week and to focus on the job we have got, | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
to be an effective opposition, to take this Tory government to task | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
and to start to begin that detailed work of setting out Labour's vision | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
and policies for the future, so that by the time of the next election, we | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
have a real alternative to put on the table. OK, but you would agree | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
the events are worthy of analysis and this is our first new programme | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
of the new Year. Jeremy Corbyn's team briefed that Michael Dugher was | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
incompetent. Do you think he was incompetent? The events of this week | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
have had plenty of analysis over many days. Not on this programme. | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
You have on your programme during the week as well. Was he | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
incompetent? Michael Dugher is a very good colleague and he will | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
serve the Labour Party well know from the backbenches, as he has done | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
over many years from the front benches. After all that has happened | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
this week, we retain a Shadow Cabinet, a Labour top team, that is | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
a broad team. The team that I joined on that basis, and that spirit of a | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
broad church remains. That is something I am pleased about, and | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
together, we can do the job we have been asked to do, because we are not | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
just Labour's Shadow Cabinet, we are the official opposition. The clue is | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
in the name. It is our job to expose what the government is doing. That | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
is my intention and Jeremy Corbyn's intention. Other members of the | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
Shadow Cabinet, Charlie Falconer, have said we need to draw line under | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
last week's events. Would you have stayed in the Shadow | :18:39. | :18:48. | |
Cabinet if Hilary Benn had been sacked? I am not going to get drawn | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
into nit-picking... It is a huge question because we were told 11 | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
Shadow Cabinet ministers had threatened to resign. You had been | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
named in the number of reports as one of them, were you? It is a here | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
political situation. Hilary Benn remains... The Shadow Cabinet | :19:10. | :19:18. | |
remained intact as a broad team. My views were not sought nor offered. | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
This is a matter for Jeremy Corbyn, he is the leader of the Labour Party | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
and it is up to him to make decisions about the team and the | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
Shadow Cabinet. One of the new members of your team is Emily corn | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
bread, Shadow Defence Secretary. She says she does not know why Jeremy | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
Corbyn made her Shadow Defence Secretary. Do you? Again it is not | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
my view. I look forward to working with Emily and the rest of the | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
Shadow Cabinet to develop those policies going forward. One of them | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
is about the defence of our country and we will have a robust process, | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
and very detailed process, where we put forward the argument and look at | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
the evidence and the research and we will build a really good policy. Let | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
me ask you about an issue on this. A lot of the reason people see why she | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
has been appointed is quite clear. Your leader is against Trident and | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
always has been, he put Ken Livingstone in charge of the Trident | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
review, he now has a Shadow Defence Secretary opposed to Trident. It is | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
obvious that he is moving to end Labour's support for the nuclear | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
deterrent, is it not? You have got a very detailed policy process that we | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
will go through. It is not just a matter for the Shadow Cabinet, it is | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
a matter for the national policy forum. I am not a unilateralist, I | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
think we should maintain an independent, ongoing nuclear | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
deterrent. My question to you was... My question was is it not clear that | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Jeremy Corbyn wants to move your party to a unilateral nuclear | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
disarmament position? That is his position, but let's see how this | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
process goes forward. I have not had a discussion with him about Trident | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
at all and we have not had a discussion in the Shadow Cabinet | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
about this topic yet either. We have a clear policy making process. In my | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
experience of these things, it never turns out to be as binary as | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
everybody wants it to be. As you proceed and set out your argument | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
and case and look at the evidence, as you commission research and try | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
to build alliances, not just within the Shadow Cabinet, but within the | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
trade union membership, you compromise and your position changes | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
and you get a policy that everyone can get behind and in my experience | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
that is what will happen. You are either for or against having nuclear | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
arms and labour fought the 1983 election on a unilateral disarmament | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
tickets and lost by a landslide. You have said you are in favour of | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
Trident. Would you resign from the Shadow Cabinet if labour comes out | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
for nuclear disarmament? I know you want this to be an easy decision. I | :22:13. | :22:20. | |
would just like an answer, Lucy Powell. Let's see where we get to. | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
If the Labour position becomes Mr Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn's | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
position, if that becomes your official policy, would you stay in | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
the Cabinet? I would be very surprised after all the discussion | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
we go through, after all aspects of the Labour Party, I would be very | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
surprised if we got to a position where the Labour Party policy was | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
one of unilateral disarmament. If it was, what would you do? We will see | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
when we get there, but I really do not think we will get there. I am | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
doing pretty badly this morning since every question has yet to | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
elicit an answer. I am getting better at batting you off. You | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
either on who is telling the viewers you are batting me off. I want to be | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
on your programme topic about what is happening to junior doctors. Stop | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
playing for time. Ask me about education and health. There are | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
reports this morning and Mr McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
already referred to this, that Jeremy Corbyn's people want to | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
policy-making from the Shadow Cabinet to the Labour National | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
Executive Committee, not even the policy forum, just the executive | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
committee. Do you support that move? I do not think that is going to | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
happen. Any changes to Labour Party policy-making process, as those on | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
the left will know better than anybody because they are the holders | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
of the rule book, they will know that changes like that can only be | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
made at conference by changing the rule book of the Labour Party. We | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
have a very consensual policy-making process. Will the National Executive | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
Committee be the policy forum? No, that is not their role. We have got | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
a policy forum that could be improved in the way it engages with | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
outside experts and party members and the public and it could be | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
improved and Angela Eagle is looking that at that at the moment. But we | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
have a very robust and complex system, but to get to the right | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
policy-making process, and I know those of you in the media what it to | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
be really simple, but it is not. Was it consensual for the Shadow | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
Chancellor to describe the progress pressure group as having, quote, a | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
right-wing, Conservative agenda? I do not think his comments were right | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
or helpful. The best thing we can do now at the end of this week that we | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
have had is to put an end to the escalation of factionalism and name | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
calling and move on together to do the job that we need to do, which is | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
to be an effective government. You said today there are big issues | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
around Europe, junior doctors going on strike for the first time in 40 | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
years and we have got an important job to do that my constituents | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
expect us to be doing. The last thing they want, and if there is | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
anything that Jeremy's leadership when taught us is that this | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
internal, talking about each other and the factions and so on, that is | :25:40. | :25:48. | |
what the public hate. They want big vision and big ideas and policies | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
for the future. When I ask you about policy ideas you will not give me an | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
answer. There cannot be a bigger idea than whether or not the Labour | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
Party is moving towards unilateral nuclear disarmament. We have just | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
had a huge chat about that. Ask me about education and the floods, the | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
economy that needs to change for working people. Ask me about the | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
crisis that is hitting families at the same time David Cameron is | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
making a speech about families and his government is doing the opposite | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
of supporting families. Ask me some of those things. On families are you | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
disappointed that Alison McGovern, the chair of progress, has resigned | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
from the policy forum on child poverty? It is a shame because | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
Alison has got a huge amount to offer. I have known her for many | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
years before both of us were Labour MPs and she has been a long-standing | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
campaigner on issues of child poverty and international | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
development and how we can change the economy to make it work for | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
working people. I hope Allison continues to make a contribution to | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
the Labour Party and I am sure she will, she is an effective | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
parliamentarian. I know from speaking to her that the last thing | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
she wants is all this attention that she is getting today and she was to | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
move on and draw a line and what has happened and realign our fire | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
knocked on each other, but on the Tories and on this government that | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
is doing a terrible job of running this country. Let me return to Emily | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
Thornberry. A year ago she accepted ?14,500 donation from a law firm | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
which has been condemned by an enquiry for making false allegations | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
against British soldiers which were wholly without merit, in the words | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
of the enquiry. Now she is Shadow Defence Secretary should she | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
returned that money? I do not know anything about that, I do not know | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
about the law firm or the nature of the sponsorship and how it was given | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
or what she is doing, but I am sure she will come on this programme and | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
you can interrogate her about these issues as you happen to me the past. | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
Very well, let's hope I will do better next time. Goodbye. | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
Now, after last-ditch talks broke up on Friday without agreement | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
a strike by Junior doctors, the first in over 40 years, | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
It will lead to the cancellation of thousands of appointments | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
and operations and the Government argues | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
So what's prompted this virtually unprecedented action by Doctors? | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
The Health Secretary is the star of a high-stakes medical drama. | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
The supporting cast, junior doctors, the thousands of staff who finished | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
medical school but are not consultants yet. | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
It is over big changes to their contracts, from rotas | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
to pay, changes which are much needed, according to the government, | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
and their supporters in places like right of centre think tanks. | :28:43. | :28:52. | |
It has wanted to move towards more of the seven-day week, | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
which actually, I think that ambition is shared | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
across the medical workforce, including junior doctors, | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
and it wants to change the so-called pay progression, | :29:01. | :29:02. | |
the way that junior doctors get paid more just for being in office | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
for longer, just as they are doing to the rest of the public sector, | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
so I think they were absolutely right to start this | :29:10. | :29:11. | |
But the doctors are furious about it. | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
Both sides have been negotiating for months, | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
most recently on Friday, when the gap between them | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
Let's look at some of the concessions made | :29:22. | :29:30. | |
They want Saturday to be considered a normal working day. | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
Initially they said antisocial hours which come with extra pay would not | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
But that has been rolled back to 7:00pm. | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
The Department of Health has also promised to introduce so-called | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
guardians who will monitor that doctors are not forced to work | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
They will have the power to fine NHS trusts who break the rules, | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
and the Government reckons most junior doctors will actually see | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
Jeremy Hunt says that agreement has been reached in 15 out of 16 areas, | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
but I've spoken to someone on the junior doctors' negotiating | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
team who told me that the number of unresolved issues | :30:08. | :30:09. | |
Nadia is an anaesthetist at a London Hospital. | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
She will be a consultant soon and is worried for the junior | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
doctors who will follow in her footsteps. | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
They will probably find themselves working more weekends, | :30:22. | :30:23. | |
They would find their shifts much more erratic, much less compatible | :30:24. | :30:31. | |
with having a normal life, which would affect the working lives | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
of thousands of junior doctors who have families and children | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
in school, and they would struggle with that. | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
It would also affect patients, having erratic working lives, | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
erratic working hours, is proven not to be good | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
for anyone's health, and there are lots of studies that | :30:50. | :30:51. | |
If this contract goes through, there is a high likelihood | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
that is going to be the situation and those people will be in charge | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
More than 70 junior doctors from hospitals along | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
It is a repeat of 1975, the last time that junior | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
On Tuesday, this generation of medics will provide only | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
Another two strikes are coming with plans for no junior doctors | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
This issue has even made it into the charts when an NHS choir | :31:20. | :31:30. | |
One of the campaigners behind it says the government is not | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
seeing the real problems in the health service. | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
There are not enough staff, this is not in one hospital, | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
this is every hospital in the country, there are not enough | :31:46. | :31:47. | |
staff to deal with the demands in A | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
There are not enough GPs, and GPs are leaving our health | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
service, A doctors are leaving the health service. | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
These are the key issues which need to be addressed, | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
and they need to be addressed now, not after this contract negotiation | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
or as part of a pay envelope, or any other speak the government | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
Jeremy Hunt is convinced that a more seven-day NHS is the way | :32:07. | :32:19. | |
But it looks like there could be plenty of cliffhangers | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
Now, we asked for an interview with the doctors' union, | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
the BMA, and the Department for Health but neither | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
But we're joined now by the former Conservative MP and Health Secretary | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
He now chairs the NHS Confederation which represents NHS Trusts. | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Our BMA militants spoiling for a | :32:42. | :32:50. | |
fight, or has Jeremy Hunt bungled the negotiations and provoke | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
hard-working doctors to stop work? The last thing patients want is a | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
long running commentary about the behaviour of the negotiating | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
parties. It is disappointing that we have got a strike action plan for | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
this week, but what we need to see is the parties back in the | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
negotiating room dealing with the detail that your report just | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
highlighted. That can only be dealt with round the negotiating table. | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
The overwhelming majority of doctors to back an unprecedented action of | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
strikes, including a full strike in the third one, hardly suggests the | :33:34. | :33:35. | |
negotiations have been handled with aplomb. What has been going on | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
within the negotiating room is addressing the detail. Any pay | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
negotiation, as you very well know, covers a mass of complex detail. | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
There is a commitment from the BMA and the employers and the government | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
to deliver better performance over the weekend and we have seen. We | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
have seen in our hospitals that there is an issue around excess | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
mortality. The government is right to address that issue. This is part | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
of the response to that issue and that is a commitment that is shared | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
by all the negotiators. It cannot be that accepted as they are going on | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
strike. The government claims there are 11,000 unnecessary weekend | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
deaths because of book cover. That is just a propaganda figure. It is | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
right that the excess mortality is not just around we can cover, that | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
is true. That figure is a propaganda figure. There is an analysis that | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
shows there is excess mortality in British hospitals at weekends. That | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
is an issue that the BMA, the doctors, the clinical leaders of the | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
health service and the management leaders and the government from a | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
policy point of view all understand needs to be reassessed. Except the | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
report comes up with the 11000 and you said it is not possible to | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
determine the extent to which these excess deaths may be preventable and | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
it would be misleading to assume they were. It is a figure the | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
Secretary of State uses all the time. Rash and misleading. I am not | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
using it, but I say there is a need to look seriously on behalf of | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
patients if there is evidence of excess mortality at the weekend. We | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
know there is excess mortality. But that is not the right figure. Should | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
we simply sit back and do nothing? If the figure is not right perhaps | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
the Secretary of State should not be using it. Is it not wholly | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
unrealistic to implement a full seven-day week cover in the NHS | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
without an increase in overall NHS resources? That is what the | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
government announced in the comprehensive spending review before | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
Christmas. What is unrealistic... That is simply to keep the NHS | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
ticking over, it is not to pay for seven days a week cover. It is | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
unrealistic to imagine we can deliver the kind of health and care | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
services we want in our country without addressing some of the | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
fundamental issues around Funding. Let us look at the funding. | :36:16. | :36:50. | |
The government is trying to implement seven-day week cover on | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
health spending. That is essentially unchanged in real terms. Look at the | :36:58. | :37:06. | |
health spending, as a share of our GDP, among the wealthier countries, | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
we spend 8.5% of our GDP on health, that includes private health. These | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
other countries, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, are all close | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
to 11%. Given that we already spend less, how can we hope to have a | :37:23. | :37:30. | |
seven day a week NHS on 8.5% of GDP? You dropped about slogans, can I | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
pick up on this slogan, most people know perfectly well that we already | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
have a seven-day NHS. What you say about this? The funding of the | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
health service, that is precisely one of the issues with which I | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
agree, it needs to be addressed. On a cross-party basis. That is one of | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
the things I learned as chair of the cross-party health committee in the | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
last parliament. Can we afford things like seven-day week full | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
cover. That is what is being proposed with that level of health | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
spending. Only island spends less than we do. I accept that there is | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
an issue with excess mortality at weekends. What I do not accept is | :38:19. | :38:26. | |
that we have a seven-day week NHS. Do you accept that we need to get | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
closer to France and Germany than we are the moment on spending? I do | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
agree that not just in this country, but right across the world over a | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
very long period, as societies get richer they spend more of their | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
income on health and care services. But we have to move away from | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
thinking that the health service is an island. It is part of the care | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
system and we have to look at that from a holistic pieces across health | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
and care. That is why think we need a cross-party review in the medium | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
and long-term. You're doing a commission and a hope you keep us | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
appraised of that. It is coming up to 11:40pm. We say goodbye to | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday politics in Scotland. | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
Coming up on the programme: As David Cameron continues to press | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
for reform of the EU how do politicians here view | :39:24. | :39:25. | |
the prospect of a European referendum? | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
Help for first-time buyers, and THAT reshuffle - | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
we'll be speaking to the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian Murray live. | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
So, a new year begins - and it's another election year. | :39:40. | :39:41. | |
Voters go to the polls to choose their MSPs in May. | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
But the prospect of a second national vote this year is looming | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
increasingly large - could we have an EU | :39:49. | :39:49. | |
David Cameron gave his ministers a free vote on the issue this week | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
and told the Andrew Marr programme this morning he remains hopeful | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
of making a deal next month on new terms for Britain's | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
With a growing crop of campaigns on both sides of the argument, | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
it was announced today that the former Labour MP Frank Roy | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
will be Campaign Director in Scotland for Britain Stronger In | :40:09. | :40:10. | |
Europe. Natalie Higgins reports. | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
2016 is just ten days old, but David Cameron has already resumed his | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
seemingly unending to review it. He is trying to persuade leaders to | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
back his version of reforms for the EU. That means opting out of further | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
political integration, more protection for non-EU countries and | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
restricting benefits for EU workers who come to the UK. In Scotland, | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
Ukip will be campaigning to leave but most parties are officially for | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
staying in. However Labour MPs will be allowed a free vote. | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
I think the more distinctive view, the most important view, is to put | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
forward the case for a corporation generally, and a corporation that is | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
possible within Europe, not just on terrorism and security and jobs, but | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
on energy, to use the wind, wave and solar power that we can use in | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
Scotland as part of the European great, cooperation on trade, or | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
receives International aid and development. First Minister | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
meanwhile is adamant that Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
against its well. But if the EU as a whole does vote for Brexit then | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
Scotland would be an uncharted territory. | :41:39. | :41:39. | |
The Scottish Government could say we want another independence referendum | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
and want to stay in the EU. Westminster Mile not agree with | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
that, then there will be another conflict. You might find that the | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
parliament will say, we will not repeal EU laws, we do not agree with | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
you, and then there would be a stalemate while Scotland with block | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
Britain leaving the EU. The last, intriguing option, might be that | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
Scotland would leave Europe with the rest of the UK but say, we want | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
devolution of a lot of the EU policies so that we can negotiate a | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
closer relationship with muscles than you, the UK, are planning to | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
negotiate. The truth is nobody knows the extent | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
to which those waters which are at the moment opposed to independence, | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
how much they would be willing to change their view is the UK were to | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
vote to leave the European Union. But certainly any very committed | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
unionist who is really thinking about, which direction do I want | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
this to go and perhaps is not completely committed to going | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
outside of the European Union, might ask themselves, defying courage | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
people to leave, maybe I will be bringing about the break-up of | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
Britain. With the EU negotiations potentially | :43:08. | :43:09. | |
been concluded as early as next month there is growing confidence | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
there will be a vote this year, possibly as early as June. That | :43:16. | :43:17. | |
would mean less talk on the continent and more debates here at | :43:18. | :43:19. | |
home. Labour north and south of the border | :43:20. | :43:21. | |
will campaign to remain in the EU, although MPs and MSPs | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
will have a free vote. But there is a history | :43:25. | :43:26. | |
of Euroscepticism from the far left. In the 1975 referendum to decide | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
whether Britain should stay in the European Economic Community, | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
as it was then called, both Tony Benn and Michael Foot | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
campaigned prominently Under Tony Blair, opposition | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
to the EU dwindled, but its current UK leader's position has | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
been more ambivalent. Jeremy Corbyn has voted in favour | :43:44. | :43:45. | |
of social measures and those As recently as September last year | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
there was a question of whether he'd favour continuing | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
membership of the EU? Well, to answer that, | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
and other questions, the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
Murray joins us from our Edinburgh | :44:08. | :44:09. | |
studio. Are all of the MSPs in labour here | :44:10. | :44:22. | |
pro-euro? Think the vast majority of not just Labour members but Labour | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
supporters are pro-Europe. We see the benefits of being part of... But | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
do you see any Labour MSPs campaigning to leave? And do not | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
know of any campaigning to leave. There are some MPs who are | :44:38. | :44:48. | |
campaigning. They are running that Out campaign. We are broad church of | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
a party. But Scottish Labour will be putting lots of resources behind | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
staying in the European Union because it is in Scotland's | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
interests to do so. As far as you are aware, you will all be | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
campaigning to stay in? As far as I am aware, the entirety of Scottish | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
Labour will be campaigning to stay in. Do not know any colleagues who | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
will be of the view of wanting to leave. They will have a free vote in | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
any case and that is the right thing to do. We will be campaigning very | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
hard, it is in Scotland's national interest to do so. Would you be | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
happy to campaign with conservatives who are in favour of staying in? We | :45:31. | :45:39. | |
have set up our own distinct campaign, run by Alan Johnson at | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
national level. We will be campaigning with the Labour Party, | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
for the Labour Party, to stay in. Other parties will have their own | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
campaigns. When you run through the referendum campaign there will be | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
issues we will campaign on together and separately, but this is a | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
distinct Labour campaign to keep Scotland and the United Kingdom in | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
the EU. You would be happy to share a platform with conservatives who | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
share your views? We will ship platforms was also the parties, | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
including the SNP, the Greens -- we will be sharing platforms. There can | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
only be one official Out and In campaign. What do you make of the | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
SNP argument that shoot the eventuality arise that Scotland | :46:32. | :46:39. | |
voted to leave, but the UK voted to stay in, that that would be | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
justification for another independence referendum? The SNP | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
have had between 15 and 20 justifications for another | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
referendum. We should all sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
keeping Scotland and the UK in the EU. That is what we should all be | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
campaigning on with one voice because it is good for Scottish job | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
and Scottish corporations. -- jobs. Should that come to pass, how | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
strongly do you feel about it? Do you think the British government | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
would be entitled to say, no, you have just had a vote on independence | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
and have faltered to stay in the UK and if the UK votes to leave that is | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
it, you cannot have another referendum? The other question is | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
true. What if the rest of the UK voted to stay in the European Union | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
and Scotland voted to leave. This is a vote for the UK Parliament as the | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
state that has the membership. That is what we are fighting to keep end. | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
We will be fighting to make sure that it is larger than one vote to | :47:48. | :47:57. | |
end. -- to win. We want to put this to bed as an issue so that we can | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
start cooperating in Europe to get what we want. Whatever scenario we | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
talk about, there is no justification in your view for | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
another independence referendum? I cannot see where the justification | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
would come from. On all of these issues, the economic case for | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
independence is worse now than it was last year. We have to do what is | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
in the best interest of Scotland and the Scottish people, that is why we | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
are campaigning to stay end, it is the right thing to do. RU still a | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
member of the Progress grip? Yes. How did you feel about it been | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
described as part of our right-wing clique by the Chancellor of the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
Exchequer -- Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer? They need to ramp | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
down the rhetoric. We are on Labour Party fighting to oppose the | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
Conservative Government and when elections in Scotland in May. Some | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
of the words that he chosen that particular interview were | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
unnecessary and, indeed, you should be trying to unite the party rather | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
than ramping up rhetoric against embers of the party who are loyal | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
servants of Labour Party and their constituents and opponents of this | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
austerity Conservative Government. How did you feel | :49:18. | :49:35. | |
about Michael Dugher been fired? He will be a stronger thorn in the | :49:36. | :49:45. | |
Conservatives's sides from the backbenches perhaps. I went to give | :49:46. | :49:47. | |
can solidarity to some colleagues who had lost their jobs because that | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
is the rate thing to do because they are good parliamentarians and close | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
colleagues. You're close colleagues and friends have been sacked and you | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
have been described as part of the hard right by a man who is the | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer. In this process, did you at any | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
point considered doing what some of your other colleagues dead and | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
quitting the Cabinet? No, we need a strong Scottish voice in the Shadow | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
Cabinet, we have a big job to do here in Scotland. My only concern at | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
the moment is to make sure we can put forward a policy platform for | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
the 2016 Scottish elections that is bald and positive and radical and | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
will take the fight to the Scottish Government and will win as many | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
votes and seat is possible whilst holding this dreadful Conservative | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
Government to account. I have no intention of resigning from the | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
Shadow Cabinet because we are part of the team, we have a big job to do | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
as the official opposition in this country and that is why we are | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
working together as a team. Some of the language that has been used | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
should be toned down slightly and we need to get back to doing what we | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
should be doing, and that is being the official opposition. Do you | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
think Jeremy Corbyn can win the next general election? | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is trying to do politics differently. It is not | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
everyone's cup of tea. He wants to very carefully go through a policy | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
development process and go through using his Shadow Cabinet and Shadow | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
ministerial teams. He wants to involve as many people as he can and | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
he is doing that in a very considered way. It is a new way of | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
doing politics that we all have to consider. Then he get that kind of | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
policy platform in place and gets the new policy in place that | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
everyone wants to see we will see the benefit of that. This new policy | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
that Kezia Dugdale promote with this week, basically giving money to | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
first-time buyers, this was money that was supposedly going to be used | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
to help people who would the affected by George Osborne's cuts to | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
tax credits. He has since abandoned those. I struggle to see the logic | :52:02. | :52:09. | |
of saying money you mark to help the police in society should now be | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
given as a bunk to people who want to buy a house. I think you're being | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
slightly unkind to this holiday. It was bold and radical. It is not the | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
bond to people looking to buy a house but to support first-time | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
buyers who are looking to get on the property ladder. People who qualify | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
for this will already have been in a thief to buy ice that set up by the | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
Tories and the Tories and they could have got 3000 homes from the | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
conservative government already. It is saying we will do double poorly | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
in Scotland. We have to be careful when using words like bung. The air | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
passenger duty money was allocated to tax credits and that is no longer | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
required to be used cause of the U-turn won in the house of lords. | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
That money is available to be reallocated and Kezia Dugdale has | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
reallocated that. The second thing is, let me just run through the | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
hypothetical of a couple living together. If erect were to put ?100 | :53:14. | :53:21. | |
each into a help to buy ice they would have enough within two years | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
to have it topped up to ?9,000 which would give each couple ?3000 each | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
from Kezia Dugdale's policy. What is this got to do with helping the | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
least well off in society? 96% of first-time buyers ie property less | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
than ?250,000 so this is the kind of deposit you require. It is | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
aspirational in terms of those who want to get on the property market. | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
This is the right thing to do to help them. I think it is important. | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
This isn't just about getting first-time buyers on the property | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
market but about putting money into the economy. It is nothing better to | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
stimulate the economy than people buying their first home. I am | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
tempted to buy the same question again but I do not have time. | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
For Unionists there's an added pressure in all this. | :54:18. | :54:19. | |
Some may be Eurosceptic but worried that if a majority in Britain vote | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
in favour of leaving but Scotland elects to remain part of the EU it | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
could trigger a second independence referendum here and tear | :54:27. | :54:28. | |
Here's Nicola Sturgeon talking last year about that eventuality. | :54:29. | :54:38. | |
I have said before and I repeat again today that it Scotland was to | :54:39. | :54:46. | |
find itself facing an EU exit that we hadn't voted for a second | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
referendum may be unstoppable. It may be a material change to the | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
circumstances in which last year's vote was taken. We will be | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
campaigning for the UK to remain within the European Union. | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
Well, to talk about that we have two Conservative politicians. | :55:04. | :55:05. | |
In a moment we'll speak to the Conservative MEP Ian Duncan | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
but first, from our Aberdeen studio, is MSP Alex Johnstone who supports | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
the Prime Minister's endeavours to renegotiate terms. | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
Alex, have you made up your mind which way you are going to vote? I | :55:17. | :55:25. | |
have not. It depends entirely on the outcome of the negotiations the row | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
minister is involved in. We have serious problems in Europe at the | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
moment. These are obvious to anyone who watches news broadcasts. Our | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
direction in Europe is inappropriate at this time which is why we need | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
you can bring to be successful in these negotiations. I think my red | :55:43. | :55:51. | |
line is a rather sense of direction. I see problems, political problems | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
across Europe where the refugee crisis, for example, has affected | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
relationships between countries and affected the article opinion within | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
countries. I see the economic crisis we were talking about before this | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
happened, particularly the state of the Greek economy and other smaller | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
populations particularly in the south of Europe desperately needing | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
assistance and attention. I see a Europe that is not designed to | :56:20. | :56:21. | |
properly deal with that problem and written needs not to be right into | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
that kind of situation against their will. I want a Europe that has a | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
different sense of direction. One that is about opening up trade, | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
competition, opportunity and not providing an economic and political | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
straitjacket that will benefit some countries and disadvantage any more. | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
If you decide David Cameron has not met those objectives you just | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
outlined, will you campaign to leave the European Union? If we get to a | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
position with it is obviously disadvantageous for Britain to | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
remain within the EU then I think it is all our duty to ensure that we do | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
the right thing and I would be repaired to support a vote to take | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
us out of the YouTube in union if it was a disadvantage for us to stay | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
in. -- the European Union. I want to stay in the European Union and I | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
want David Cameron to achieve a deal. Do you know if any of your | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
colleagues will be campaigning for exit? At this stage I would be | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
surprised if any of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament declared | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
that they would be campaigning for a noble. -- reinvent. The evidence | :57:38. | :57:50. | |
seems to be that conservative voters are split on the issue. If you are | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
the Conservatives aborted in Scotland I do feel very strongly | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
written should leave the EU who, given that Ruth Davidson has told | :57:59. | :58:00. | |
this programme several weeks ago that she would campaign for a yes | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
vote irrespective of what David Cameron negotiated, who will | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
represent these Tory voters who want out? It is entirely important that | :58:11. | :58:19. | |
people will have their own opinions. What we have to remember is that it | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
is equally irresponsible for anyone to take a position in advance of | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
these negotiations whether we should be in or out, particularly those who | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
find themselves in a position where they want Britain to be stronger | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
within Europe. That is why it is so important that we wait for | :58:41. | :58:42. | |
negotiations to take place, find out the deal that David Cameron is going | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
to achieve and we vote on that deal and not on a broader principle which | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
is not defined within David Cameron's negotiations. Before I let | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
you go, with another hat on, you are a north-east MP, you have had | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
terrible floods up there. We are also a farmer. Briefly tell us how | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
the clean-up is going and whether you think farmers in particular need | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
any more help from the government. One of the particular problems you | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
is that farmers are not getting much help from the government at all. As | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
you may be aware, most subsidy payments were gathered together many | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
years ago into a single annual farm raiment. For many farmers, the | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
majority in Scotland, they have not received last year's payment yet. | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
They are at a particularly difficult point and are trying to recover from | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
weather-related problems. It has to be said also that if you are farming | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
in an alien not affected by flooding, the weather has been | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
appalling and there have been impacted on people not directly | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
affected by flooding to but those new Zealanders who have been | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
directly affected by this could have seen their business washed away | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
entirely. That is why we need more work from the government to make | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
sure resources allocated by the UK Government which have come to | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
Scotland through the Barnett formula are properly distributed. Hum of the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
things said by the First Minister yesterday suggests these things are | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
happening but we did see a position earlier in the week where farmers in | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Cumbria were receiving support when people in Dumfries were not. Thank | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
you for joining us. Listening to that is Conservative | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
MEP Dr Ian Duncan, who's I think you intend to campaign to | :00:31. | :00:40. | |
stay in Europe at a much irrespective of anything David | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
Cameron comes up with? We have made significant progress during this | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
period. I am a member of the European Parliament and it has been | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
any 2% reduction in the laws passing through that particular payment. | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
That is because of Britain doing less better. We are making | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
substantial progress in reforming the EU. We are no longer standing | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
alone when it comes to reform. If you look at other nations the word | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
reform is now the forefront of their campaigning. You have actually | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
gotten government now a number of parties who are ashamed and driving | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
forward to reform the cause, after all, look where the EU is right now. | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
It is calm. It is struggling to deal with its own feet of Rob 's. Whether | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
in the Eurozone itself, the prices of the Mediterranean countries or | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
the recent crises of migration. The bottom line is, if I asked you what | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
are your red lines for David Cameron to negotiate? Your answer would be | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
the are not any? There are red lines. I need to be sure keeping the | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
pound is safe and we would not be compelled ever closer towards the | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
union with other states. We need to be able to trust that going forward | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
what we have now is protected and we can see that reform on the table but | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
the leveraged the Prime Minister has secured by these negotiations and | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
the referendum coming up it has led to a sea change in Brussels. The | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
things you have mentioned can be pretty much met by some fine words. | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
The issue of, for example, delays to benefit payments to immigrants, that | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
is a much more hard issue. Is that a red line for you or do you not give | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
further? Everything can be met by fine words but it is the force of | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
law, we will need two CDs fine words enshrined in something binding, not | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
just upon the UK but upon the role of the EU, only then can we be sure | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
and save that we do have detection from being out with the Eurozone, | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
and with the Schengen area. We will not consider the centrifugal force | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Dragon as ever closer to the centre. This is not just about Britain, | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
member states across the EU are looking for the ability to do things | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
differently, less and better. At the forefront is the United Kingdom. Do | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
you think this should be a referendum on Europe? You think it | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
is a good thing to have it? Is it a good thing to have it? I think the | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
leveraging the EU has given more power in the negotiations. The SNP | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
and Scottish Government have top about, should, by any chance, | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
Britain vote no to Europe and Scotland vote yes, they would see | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
that as justification for another independence referendum. What do you | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
make of that argument? The SNP a national list party and they assert | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
independence is a declared objective. I think any excuse would | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
be fine to have that there can referendum. The Scottish National | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
party and government did not give an to Orkney, Shetland, Dumfries and | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
the oil anywhere else should they wish to remain part of the UK. The | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
issue was that we remained part of the United Kingdom and this issue of | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
whether the EU with the good, bad or indifferent, was very clearly aired. | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
I do not think we can say we would be unsure what would happen if there | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
was a referendum. We would be bound by the will of the people. Should | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
that eventuality arise, do you think it would be justified for David | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
Cameron and the British government, even Cameron has already said it | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
would not be another independence referendum as long as yet the yen, | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
would he be justified in those circumstances to say you have had | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
your independence referendum and voted to stay in Britain. You might | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
have voted to stay in the EU and we voted to go out but I will simply | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
not allow another independence referendum? It was very clear during | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
the last referendum we were told it would be once during a referendum | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
but it is fast approaching. I do not doubt a party which thinks they are | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
better out with the UK will continue to push for another referendum. | :05:13. | :05:26. | |
voted right back should they say, if you want one then you can have | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
another one? My opinion is that there will not be another | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
independence referendum, that is the statement from the first Minister. | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
They do not think that she will say that there will never be one, but at | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
the same time we have one referendum coming and I do believe that we will | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
vote to stay in and therefore the second question will not arise. At | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
the nationalist government you will find another reason to have a second | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
independence referendum, that is only a matter of time. | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
It's been a few weeks since we were last here. | :06:00. | :06:01. | |
Let's have a look at what's been happening and what's coming up | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
Joining me is the Times Scotland editor, Lindsay McIntosh, | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
and the Observer columnist Kevin McKenna. | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
Lindsay, just on Europe, suddenly out of the blue everyone is talking | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
about having this in a few weeks or months rather than next year. Yes, | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
people are talking about June or October, September time. All of this | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
is dependent on the kind of deal David Cameron is to get in this | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
deadly meeting. If you can come out of that with something then he might | :06:42. | :06:52. | |
say, go to the polls on June -- surgery meeting. It also presumably | :06:53. | :07:03. | |
depends on the opinion polls? If you came back and said, I have a deal, | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
and it was a big majority for staying in in the opinion polls, he | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
might be tempted to say, let us just, right now, whereas if it is | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
less predictable he might say, let us have a long campaign. He will | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
look at the independence referendum campaign and issues that arose from | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
a long campaign. That did his side and no favours. If you're looking at | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
a site which has the wage to start with, they are interested in having | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
a quick poll. Kevin, I know you do not necessarily regard yourself as a | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
conservative vote who is in favour of leaving the EU, but the do | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
deserve representation and listening to her two representatives there it | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
does not look like they will get any. As you rightly observed | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
earlier, the Tory vote in Scotland seems to be divided on this issue, | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
there does not seem to be a clear majority one way or another amongst | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
the rank-and-file Tories. But if you believe Ian Murray there will not be | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
anybody standing up for a Labour voters... What David Cameron was | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
seeing on Andrew Marr this morning, there does not appear to be any | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
lead. David Cameron as saying, my government is going to campaign to | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
stay in Europe, so all of the machinery of government will go for | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
it, but you can have a free vote. But it seems to me that senior | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
Conservative figures seem to be afraid to be too extreme one way or | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
the other when they try to watch their language. If you are of two | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
mains as a Conservative, there is very little leadership either way, | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
there is no prevailing argument. This thing about, we will see what | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
sort of deal David Cameron comes back with, we saw David Cameron | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
during the week on first name terms with the Hungarian President, this | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
being the Hungarian President who set himself up as some kind of | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Christian despot, invading Christendom and the West against the | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
hordes of Islam a few months ago. I think it is getting quite confused | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
and again, if I was a Conservative, I would be saying, you need to do | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
better than that either side if you're going to get my vote one way | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
or another. Lindsay, the Labour reshuffle, or you more in Pewsey | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
Astec abated then Ian Murray? His language was interesting. John | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
McDonnell coming out in front of the cameras and criticising process, | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
saying things like right wing clique. He was seeing, we need to | :09:52. | :10:02. | |
halt the rhetoric. He was the only possibility for the shadow Scottish | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
Secretary, he can come out and say, this is what I think, without fear | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
of his position. Have we resolved anything? I can see the narrow | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
issue, that of Jeremy Corbyn once Labour to be unilateralist then he | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
has taken place in the rate the rich. At this basic problem that the | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Conservatives have, is that really been resolved? Has been a lot of | :10:25. | :10:34. | |
backbiting and briefing against people and it has not looked great | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
and the public. A lot of language being used, words like disloyalty, | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
it does not look right at all. What Jeremy Corbyn has done is a lot of | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
empire building. He has got a stronger Shadow Cabinet, for good | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
empire building. He has got a look like a stronger power in arenas | :10:55. | :10:55. | |
like these ones. This is look like a stronger power in arenas | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
recently, Kevin. The other way of look like a stronger power in arenas | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
People inside politics care about this, | :11:07. | :11:06. | |
great, we have a left-wing Labour Party. This was clearly flagged up | :11:07. | :11:18. | |
with the result and conduct of the Labour leadership campaign. Jeremy | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Corbyn was not even expected to stand, and there were even less | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
expectations that he would win by the huge majority that he did win | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
by. Even then it was flagged up that the overwhelming majority of | :11:33. | :11:34. | |
ordinary rank-and-file members in the country were backing him, but we | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
ordinary rank-and-file members in knew he would have a problem | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
the Parliamentary Party. We know that he has a | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
the Parliamentary Party. We know Labour Party. People say, | :11:46. | :11:46. | |
the Parliamentary Party. We know one thing, but these | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
the Parliamentary Party. We know understand that one thing is having | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
enough people to have a big mass demonstrations not the same as | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
winning elections. But the Prince country are saying, this is | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
interesting. Win we knew he would have a battle on his party with the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
leftovers of Tony Blair. This is being played out. Many people will | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
say, what is the problem with trying to impose your authority, influence | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
and command on your own party and cabinet? Some might say that the | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
reason why there was a three-day process in the reshuffle was because | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
he was being too nice. He was being too considerate, taking | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
he was being too nice. He was being many people's views. I would not | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
have expected David Cameron to give house room to anybody who showed the | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
slightest sign of opposition within his Cabinet on serious issues. | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is just doing what he was or was going to do, it will take | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
him off while and it will be at least two elections, possibly three, | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
both in Scotland and England, before Labour will be in a position to | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
govern anyway. There is a view which is taken by many Labour MPs that, | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
look, all you no actress Labour Party will never when the general | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
election -- unilateralist Labour Party. It was most effective in | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
1997. That is not the party Jeremy Corbyn is being forward now. What | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
happens to those people? That is not the Labour Party for them under | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. I think there is a lot of years in the wilderness for | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
them. As Kevin said, would you agree with him that it is at least two | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
elections away? It is looking like it at the moment, although goodness | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
knows what is happening in that party at the moment, who might be | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
coming forward. We are seeing names being bandied about as potential | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
equivalents to Jeremy Corbyn. It will depend whether that arm of the | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
party can get organisation behind it. That is all we have time for | :13:48. | :13:55. | |
this week. I will be back next week. Until then, from all of us on the | :13:56. | :13:56. | |
programme, goodbye. | :13:57. | :14:00. |