10/01/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


10/01/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer discuss EU renegotiation with David Davis, Labour under Jeremy Corbyn with Lucy Powell, and a seven-day health service with Stephen Dorrell.


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David Cameron says he's hopeful for a deal next month

:00:35.:00:44.

on a new relationship between Britain and the European Union.

:00:45.:00:47.

Is momentum building for a referendum this summer?

:00:48.:00:50.

He sacked two ministers prompting three to resign in protest -

:00:51.:00:53.

but is Jeremy Corbyn in a more powerful position at the end

:00:54.:00:56.

of a tumultuous week for the Labour Party?

:00:57.:01:02.

We'll speak to Shadow Cabinet Minister Lucy Powell.

:01:03.:01:06.

Junior doctors defy Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and say

:01:07.:01:10.

they will go ahead with their strike, starting Tuesday.

:01:11.:01:12.

What's prompted their first walkout in 40 years?

:01:13.:01:15.

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:16.:01:20.

If the Prime Minister's optimism over the EU referendum shared by

:01:21.:01:28.

Labour and other politicians here? We're ten days into 2016 and we've

:01:29.:01:35.

not sacked them and they've not resigned yet, so with me,

:01:36.:01:39.

the best and the brightest political panel in the business, Nick Watt,

:01:40.:01:43.

Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So David Cameron toured Europe last

:01:44.:01:50.

week continuing his re-negotiation of Britain's EU membership

:01:51.:01:52.

ahead of the referendum. He knows that whatever he comes back

:01:53.:01:54.

with will not persuade So they will be free

:01:55.:01:57.

to campaign for an exit. But this morning the Prime Minister

:01:58.:02:02.

made it clearer than ever that he would be campaigning

:02:03.:02:05.

to stay in the EU. My aim is clear, the best of both

:02:06.:02:15.

worlds for Britain, the massive prize of sorting out what frustrates

:02:16.:02:20.

us about Europe, but staying in a reformed Europe. The prize is closer

:02:21.:02:24.

than it was and I will work around the clock to get that done. The

:02:25.:02:28.

government will not be neutral about this issue with people on one side

:02:29.:02:32.

or the other, my intention is that at the conclusion of the

:02:33.:02:37.

negotiation, the Cabinet reaches a clear recommendation for the British

:02:38.:02:41.

people on what we will do. I hope that we'll be staying in a reformed

:02:42.:02:45.

European Union, because I have got a good negotiation for Britain. At

:02:46.:02:50.

that point, clear government position, members of the

:02:51.:03:03.

Cabinet, ministers with long-standing, long-held views on a

:03:04.:03:05.

different basis, they will be able to campaign.

:03:06.:03:06.

And we're joined now by the eurosceptic Conservative MP,

:03:07.:03:08.

Who should lead the out campaign? I do not think personalities matter.

:03:09.:03:19.

The Prime Minister matters because he has a big personality. For the

:03:20.:03:24.

out campaign, you have Nigella Lawson, other people. No doubt you

:03:25.:03:29.

will have four five Cabinet ministers. Does it not need to be a

:03:30.:03:33.

better known public figure than Nigel Lawson, who was Chancellor in

:03:34.:03:39.

the 1980s, or Chris Grayling or even yourself? No, people will not make

:03:40.:03:43.

their decision on the basis of which pretty face is leading the campaign.

:03:44.:03:45.

their decision on the basis of which They will make it on one basis

:03:46.:03:47.

alone, will it be good for my job or They will make it on one basis

:03:48.:03:52.

bad for my job? The argument They will make it on one basis

:03:53.:03:56.

other bogus numbers that come up, They will make it on one basis

:03:57.:04:02.

will be about my job, is my industry protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa

:04:03.:04:04.

May? There will be lots protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa

:04:05.:04:08.

in Westminster, should Boris lead, it will not matter. What matters is

:04:09.:04:13.

the it will not matter. What matters is

:04:14.:04:17.

be decided before the conclusion of the negotiation. Nigel Farage has

:04:18.:04:23.

had a torrid time since the general election, culminating in the

:04:24.:04:25.

assassination attempt that apparently was not. Is he a

:04:26.:04:33.

liability to the leave campaign? No, probably not. He has about 3 million

:04:34.:04:38.

people who are supporting him. Some of them in his party? He is his

:04:39.:04:42.

party, to a large extent. I do not of them in his party? He is his

:04:43.:04:48.

think is a liability, everyone knows what he and his party are like.

:04:49.:04:51.

think is a liability, everyone knows he got lots of credibility? It has

:04:52.:04:52.

slipped backwards he got lots of credibility? It has

:04:53.:04:56.

election. I do not think the parties matter. The personalities do not

:04:57.:05:01.

election. I do not think the parties matter. This will be a personal

:05:02.:05:01.

decision. What percentage of matter. This will be a personal

:05:02.:05:08.

MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is a majority, I do not know what

:05:09.:05:13.

MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is tomorrow and there was no other

:05:14.:05:19.

is that including the payroll vote? Yes. So two thirds of the

:05:20.:05:24.

Conservative Parliamentary party will vote to leave? Yes, if you did

:05:25.:05:30.

it tomorrow. But you have to be in mind the dynamics. You, like me,

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have lived through a lot of prime ministers and ministers returning

:05:36.:05:36.

from They arrive on Monday at 330 and

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declare their victory. We have no other information. None of it is

:05:44.:05:48.

published, the decisions had been taken in private with no

:05:49.:05:49.

journalists. There will be a sort taken in private with no

:05:50.:05:52.

wave out of that. Out of that, taken in private with no

:05:53.:05:59.

thirds will evaporate. Come the day, even 50% of the Conservative Party?

:06:00.:06:05.

I should think so. How many Cabinet ministers will exercise their right

:06:06.:06:07.

to campaign to leave? Not more ministers will exercise their right

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half a dozen, 56 maybe. I cannot think of more. Iain Duncan Smith?

:06:14.:06:18.

Iain Duncan Smith, maybe Theresa May, maybe sad you jab it, certainly

:06:19.:06:23.

Chris Grayling. Maybe Iain Duncan Smith. What is your reaction this

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morning to the story Smith. What is your reaction this

:06:29.:06:31.

officials in Downing Street are vetting or altering speeches by

:06:32.:06:37.

ministers to tone down Eurosceptic comments? My speeches go back 20

:06:38.:06:44.

years or so. Is this the start of the government machine getting

:06:45.:06:52.

moving? Yes. There are three things David Cameron said that were

:06:53.:06:55.

important. David Cameron made it plain that the government machine

:06:56.:06:58.

will go crazy on one side of this side image. It has started. Nothing

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unusual in that, by the way. David Cameron might get some sort of deal

:07:06.:07:09.

which curtails in work benefits for migrants. Is that a game changer,

:07:10.:07:14.

does it change it his way? He said, or something equally powerful, not

:07:15.:07:20.

important at all. Why do people come from Romania to hear? They come

:07:21.:07:24.

because the minimum wage is twice as big as the average wage in Rumania.

:07:25.:07:32.

And about to get bigger. In 2020, according to the Treasury strategy,

:07:33.:07:35.

tax credits will not matter, which is why they wanted to abolish them.

:07:36.:07:42.

In 2020, this whole strategy will be relevant. What is your best guess

:07:43.:07:48.

for the date of the referendum? Probably September this year. Not in

:07:49.:07:52.

summer? It might, but they have limitations built into the law. If

:07:53.:07:57.

they get it through in February, they might get the summer, but I do

:07:58.:08:00.

not think they will get it through in February. Bear in mind they have

:08:01.:08:05.

four basic claims, only one of which has really been talked about at the

:08:06.:08:10.

moment. Some of the others, the parliamentary proposals, the defence

:08:11.:08:14.

of the city, the euro, all of this, it will either be just words and not

:08:15.:08:18.

matter, which is weird lips at the moment, or it will be serious. The

:08:19.:08:25.

city basically needs a veto in European legislation relating to

:08:26.:08:28.

financial services. If it does not get that, it is meaningless. If

:08:29.:08:33.

David Cameron loses the referendum, does he have to resign as Prime

:08:34.:08:37.

Minister? That is the least important question. Is there an

:08:38.:08:44.

answer? I do not know. Should they? Not necessarily, it depends on how

:08:45.:08:49.

it goes with the terms. He said this morning there is no plans for a

:08:50.:08:54.

British exit. This is disgraceful. You have two moderately likely

:08:55.:08:59.

outcomes. We do not know which will be. There were no plans for Scottish

:09:00.:09:05.

independence. I suspect there were. There are no plans for the British

:09:06.:09:09.

exit and that is serious because it is a complicated operation to carry

:09:10.:09:13.

out if it happens. We will be returning to you, David Davis, thank

:09:14.:09:17.

you. Nick, there is no doubt that the

:09:18.:09:20.

Prime Minister is gearing up to campaign disdain with he brings back

:09:21.:09:25.

from Brussels. Absolutely, he is determined to keep Britain in the

:09:26.:09:29.

European Union. His official languages that he wants to

:09:30.:09:32.

renegotiate better terms and if he gets the right deal, he will keep

:09:33.:09:37.

them, but the mask slip today when Andrew Marr asked about British

:09:38.:09:40.

exit, the preparations for that, and he said it was not the right answer.

:09:41.:09:45.

Today, the other interesting things he did was a reprieve is of the

:09:46.:09:49.

Scottish referendum. He was saying that if you are -- that if you lost

:09:50.:09:56.

the referendum he would not resign. He wants to get that message out

:09:57.:10:00.

there because he wants to kill the idea of a link between his future

:10:01.:10:05.

and the referendum results. With the Scottish referendum, in private they

:10:06.:10:09.

prepared a resignation later. He made clear to Andrew Marr this

:10:10.:10:12.

morning that the government machine is not going to be neutral, it will

:10:13.:10:16.

back David Cameron. That is one of the reasons I would disagree with

:10:17.:10:20.

David Davis and say that the out campaign needs a big figurehead. You

:10:21.:10:26.

will have the full weight of an institutional machine behind the yes

:10:27.:10:30.

vote. On the out said, we have Nigel Farage. He appeals to 3 million

:10:31.:10:36.

voters, but not a majority. There is a responsible case to be made. That

:10:37.:10:40.

is why someone like Boris Johnson will be pressured enormously to say

:10:41.:10:46.

which side he will jump for. If David Davis is right, and at least

:10:47.:10:50.

50% of the parliamentary party, including the payroll vote is going

:10:51.:10:55.

to vote to leave, many will campaign to leave, that is a massive problem

:10:56.:11:00.

for the Conservatives and David Cameron? The problem is especially

:11:01.:11:04.

acute if the final result is so narrow that the result can be

:11:05.:11:10.

plausibly attributed to a credible, sitting Conservative Prime Minister

:11:11.:11:14.

having campaigned to remain in. If Eurosceptic backbenchers are Cabinet

:11:15.:11:20.

minister can say, had David Cameron campaigned the other way, or less

:11:21.:11:25.

lasciviously, we might have got our lifetime's ambition to leave the

:11:26.:11:29.

European Union. If it is close, it will linger in the Tory party. It

:11:30.:11:34.

introduces poison. My guess is that the party will fall apart. I am much

:11:35.:11:39.

less certain than I was 18 months ago. They know they can govern for

:11:40.:11:44.

another nine years. Have we change the constitution? I think the

:11:45.:11:48.

presence of Germany Corbyn effectively guarantees the next

:11:49.:11:52.

election. -- the presence of Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you.

:11:53.:11:57.

So Jeremy Corbyn sacked two Shadow ministers and three resigned.

:11:58.:11:59.

Now another Labour MP says she can no longer work with the party's

:12:00.:12:02.

leadership in the wake of last week's reshuffle.

:12:03.:12:04.

Alison McGovern has told this programme that she is resigning

:12:05.:12:07.

from a policy review on child poverty after the pressure group

:12:08.:12:11.

she chairs was described as "right wing" and "Conservative"

:12:12.:12:13.

Labour say she's resigning from something that doesn't exist.

:12:14.:12:17.

As Labour's internal divisions become more acrimonious,

:12:18.:12:21.

can the different wings of the party continue to work with each other?

:12:22.:12:24.

A new year, a new start, but still the fireworks.

:12:25.:12:38.

But let's be honest, we have sort of got used to them.

:12:39.:12:43.

There was that vote on Syria which saw 67 Labour MPs disagree

:12:44.:12:48.

with their leader and vote with the government,

:12:49.:12:50.

not least because of that speech from Hilary Benn.

:12:51.:12:56.

Can I have a Green Clean Machine, please, with Siberian ginseng

:12:57.:13:00.

Jeremy Corbyn's new year resolution, we were led to believe,

:13:01.:13:05.

was to detoxify his party, starting with a reshuffle.

:13:06.:13:07.

Things had started appearing in some of the newspapers.

:13:08.:13:09.

There was talk of revenge, a dish best served cold.

:13:10.:13:11.

The leadership team denied any such briefing.

:13:12.:13:15.

But nothing actually happened until Tuesday when Michael Dugher,

:13:16.:13:22.

the then Shadow Culture Secretary tweeted, just been

:13:23.:13:23.

The day rattled on but it was not until after midnight that

:13:24.:13:32.

Pat McFadden was fired from his role as a Shadow Europe Minister.

:13:33.:13:35.

Both were accused of disloyalty by the leadership.

:13:36.:13:37.

What then followed was a raft of resignations.

:13:38.:13:42.

The first was Jonathan Reynolds in the Shadow Transport team.

:13:43.:13:45.

Then the Shadow Foreign Office Minister, who picked our programme

:13:46.:13:47.

I have just written to Jeremy Corbyn to resign from the front bench.

:13:48.:13:54.

that I've seen being briefed at this morning, are simply not true.

:13:55.:13:57.

Undoubtedly they will do that about other individuals,

:13:58.:13:59.

undoubtedly they will do that about me.

:14:00.:14:01.

Less than an hour later, Shadow Defence Minister Kevan Jones

:14:02.:14:03.

Jeremy Corbyn's right-hand man, John McDonnell, also

:14:04.:14:10.

We have had a few junior members resign today

:14:11.:14:13.

and that is their right, but they do all come from a narrow

:14:14.:14:17.

right wing clique within the Labour Party, based around

:14:18.:14:19.

I do not think they have ever really accepted Jeremy's mandate.

:14:20.:14:27.

Progress is seen broadly as the Blairite wing of the party.

:14:28.:14:29.

By the time the Shadow Chancellor was making those comments,

:14:30.:14:32.

I am told he was late for a meeting with the group's

:14:33.:14:35.

Alison McGovern says he asked to take part in Labour's policy

:14:36.:14:40.

review on the subject, a role from which the Sunday Politics can

:14:41.:14:43.

reveal she now feels she has to resign.

:14:44.:14:47.

I am there waiting to meet him to talk about it and all

:14:48.:14:50.

the while he had gone to the television studio to call

:14:51.:14:53.

the organisation that I am the chair of of having a hard right

:14:54.:14:56.

We are all Labour members and we believe in having

:14:57.:15:01.

That is what we are, nothing more, nothing less,

:15:02.:15:05.

and I do not want to be on the television talking

:15:06.:15:08.

about this, but I feel like I have been backed into a corner and I have

:15:09.:15:12.

no other choice now but to stand up and say,

:15:13.:15:15.

this is who we are and we should get on with the business of getting

:15:16.:15:18.

The rumours have centred around one man, because of this.

:15:19.:15:23.

It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria.

:15:24.:15:28.

But Hilary Benn kept his job as Shadow Foreign Secretary.

:15:29.:15:30.

The BBC understands a number of Shadow Cabinet ministers had

:15:31.:15:37.

Other new frontbenchers have defended their boss.

:15:38.:15:41.

What Jeremy Corbyn has tried to do is to be consensual, to negotiate,

:15:42.:15:44.

not to hurt people's feelings and get the right team,

:15:45.:15:50.

This has not exactly been a happy new year for Labour.

:15:51.:15:53.

One Shadow Cabinet minister told me the handling of this

:15:54.:15:56.

Another former minister said it smacked of a leader more focused

:15:57.:16:02.

on consolidating his power internally and he was not looking

:16:03.:16:04.

It has left a bad taste in the mouths of a number of them.

:16:05.:16:09.

Actually, can I have a coffee instead?

:16:10.:16:14.

We're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Education Secretary,

:16:15.:16:18.

Welcome back to the programme. Was Jeremy Corbyn right to sack Michael

:16:19.:16:29.

Dugher from the Shadow Cabinet? Good morning to you as well. It is good

:16:30.:16:35.

to be zero. It has been a very difficult week for the Labour Party.

:16:36.:16:39.

How can I top it off, by having a nice friendly chat with you about

:16:40.:16:44.

the Labour Party? Was he right to sack Michael Dugher? I do not think

:16:45.:16:47.

that after the difficult week we have had, I week which everybody

:16:48.:16:51.

will be down to experience and learn the lessons from, that it is helpful

:16:52.:16:56.

to the Labour Party, and indeed politics as a whole, for us to pick

:16:57.:17:00.

through the events of that week. There is the moment to draw a line

:17:01.:17:04.

under what has happened this week and to focus on the job we have got,

:17:05.:17:08.

to be an effective opposition, to take this Tory government to task

:17:09.:17:14.

and to start to begin that detailed work of setting out Labour's vision

:17:15.:17:17.

and policies for the future, so that by the time of the next election, we

:17:18.:17:22.

have a real alternative to put on the table. OK, but you would agree

:17:23.:17:25.

the events are worthy of analysis and this is our first new programme

:17:26.:17:32.

of the new Year. Jeremy Corbyn's team briefed that Michael Dugher was

:17:33.:17:36.

incompetent. Do you think he was incompetent? The events of this week

:17:37.:17:40.

have had plenty of analysis over many days. Not on this programme.

:17:41.:17:43.

You have on your programme during the week as well. Was he

:17:44.:17:49.

incompetent? Michael Dugher is a very good colleague and he will

:17:50.:17:52.

serve the Labour Party well know from the backbenches, as he has done

:17:53.:17:55.

over many years from the front benches. After all that has happened

:17:56.:18:02.

this week, we retain a Shadow Cabinet, a Labour top team, that is

:18:03.:18:08.

a broad team. The team that I joined on that basis, and that spirit of a

:18:09.:18:14.

broad church remains. That is something I am pleased about, and

:18:15.:18:17.

together, we can do the job we have been asked to do, because we are not

:18:18.:18:22.

just Labour's Shadow Cabinet, we are the official opposition. The clue is

:18:23.:18:27.

in the name. It is our job to expose what the government is doing. That

:18:28.:18:32.

is my intention and Jeremy Corbyn's intention. Other members of the

:18:33.:18:36.

Shadow Cabinet, Charlie Falconer, have said we need to draw line under

:18:37.:18:38.

last week's events. Would you have stayed in the Shadow

:18:39.:18:48.

Cabinet if Hilary Benn had been sacked? I am not going to get drawn

:18:49.:18:54.

into nit-picking... It is a huge question because we were told 11

:18:55.:18:58.

Shadow Cabinet ministers had threatened to resign. You had been

:18:59.:19:03.

named in the number of reports as one of them, were you? It is a here

:19:04.:19:09.

political situation. Hilary Benn remains... The Shadow Cabinet

:19:10.:19:18.

remained intact as a broad team. My views were not sought nor offered.

:19:19.:19:23.

This is a matter for Jeremy Corbyn, he is the leader of the Labour Party

:19:24.:19:27.

and it is up to him to make decisions about the team and the

:19:28.:19:31.

Shadow Cabinet. One of the new members of your team is Emily corn

:19:32.:19:36.

bread, Shadow Defence Secretary. She says she does not know why Jeremy

:19:37.:19:40.

Corbyn made her Shadow Defence Secretary. Do you? Again it is not

:19:41.:19:46.

my view. I look forward to working with Emily and the rest of the

:19:47.:19:50.

Shadow Cabinet to develop those policies going forward. One of them

:19:51.:19:55.

is about the defence of our country and we will have a robust process,

:19:56.:20:00.

and very detailed process, where we put forward the argument and look at

:20:01.:20:04.

the evidence and the research and we will build a really good policy. Let

:20:05.:20:11.

me ask you about an issue on this. A lot of the reason people see why she

:20:12.:20:16.

has been appointed is quite clear. Your leader is against Trident and

:20:17.:20:20.

always has been, he put Ken Livingstone in charge of the Trident

:20:21.:20:24.

review, he now has a Shadow Defence Secretary opposed to Trident. It is

:20:25.:20:29.

obvious that he is moving to end Labour's support for the nuclear

:20:30.:20:36.

deterrent, is it not? You have got a very detailed policy process that we

:20:37.:20:40.

will go through. It is not just a matter for the Shadow Cabinet, it is

:20:41.:20:45.

a matter for the national policy forum. I am not a unilateralist, I

:20:46.:20:50.

think we should maintain an independent, ongoing nuclear

:20:51.:20:57.

deterrent. My question to you was... My question was is it not clear that

:20:58.:21:01.

Jeremy Corbyn wants to move your party to a unilateral nuclear

:21:02.:21:07.

disarmament position? That is his position, but let's see how this

:21:08.:21:10.

process goes forward. I have not had a discussion with him about Trident

:21:11.:21:15.

at all and we have not had a discussion in the Shadow Cabinet

:21:16.:21:21.

about this topic yet either. We have a clear policy making process. In my

:21:22.:21:26.

experience of these things, it never turns out to be as binary as

:21:27.:21:30.

everybody wants it to be. As you proceed and set out your argument

:21:31.:21:35.

and case and look at the evidence, as you commission research and try

:21:36.:21:39.

to build alliances, not just within the Shadow Cabinet, but within the

:21:40.:21:45.

trade union membership, you compromise and your position changes

:21:46.:21:49.

and you get a policy that everyone can get behind and in my experience

:21:50.:21:54.

that is what will happen. You are either for or against having nuclear

:21:55.:21:59.

arms and labour fought the 1983 election on a unilateral disarmament

:22:00.:22:03.

tickets and lost by a landslide. You have said you are in favour of

:22:04.:22:07.

Trident. Would you resign from the Shadow Cabinet if labour comes out

:22:08.:22:12.

for nuclear disarmament? I know you want this to be an easy decision. I

:22:13.:22:20.

would just like an answer, Lucy Powell. Let's see where we get to.

:22:21.:22:28.

If the Labour position becomes Mr Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn's

:22:29.:22:32.

position, if that becomes your official policy, would you stay in

:22:33.:22:38.

the Cabinet? I would be very surprised after all the discussion

:22:39.:22:43.

we go through, after all aspects of the Labour Party, I would be very

:22:44.:22:47.

surprised if we got to a position where the Labour Party policy was

:22:48.:22:52.

one of unilateral disarmament. If it was, what would you do? We will see

:22:53.:22:57.

when we get there, but I really do not think we will get there. I am

:22:58.:23:02.

doing pretty badly this morning since every question has yet to

:23:03.:23:07.

elicit an answer. I am getting better at batting you off. You

:23:08.:23:12.

either on who is telling the viewers you are batting me off. I want to be

:23:13.:23:18.

on your programme topic about what is happening to junior doctors. Stop

:23:19.:23:23.

playing for time. Ask me about education and health. There are

:23:24.:23:31.

reports this morning and Mr McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor

:23:32.:23:35.

already referred to this, that Jeremy Corbyn's people want to

:23:36.:23:40.

policy-making from the Shadow Cabinet to the Labour National

:23:41.:23:45.

Executive Committee, not even the policy forum, just the executive

:23:46.:23:50.

committee. Do you support that move? I do not think that is going to

:23:51.:23:55.

happen. Any changes to Labour Party policy-making process, as those on

:23:56.:24:00.

the left will know better than anybody because they are the holders

:24:01.:24:04.

of the rule book, they will know that changes like that can only be

:24:05.:24:08.

made at conference by changing the rule book of the Labour Party. We

:24:09.:24:13.

have a very consensual policy-making process. Will the National Executive

:24:14.:24:20.

Committee be the policy forum? No, that is not their role. We have got

:24:21.:24:24.

a policy forum that could be improved in the way it engages with

:24:25.:24:28.

outside experts and party members and the public and it could be

:24:29.:24:32.

improved and Angela Eagle is looking that at that at the moment. But we

:24:33.:24:38.

have a very robust and complex system, but to get to the right

:24:39.:24:43.

policy-making process, and I know those of you in the media what it to

:24:44.:24:50.

be really simple, but it is not. Was it consensual for the Shadow

:24:51.:24:52.

Chancellor to describe the progress pressure group as having, quote, a

:24:53.:24:59.

right-wing, Conservative agenda? I do not think his comments were right

:25:00.:25:04.

or helpful. The best thing we can do now at the end of this week that we

:25:05.:25:10.

have had is to put an end to the escalation of factionalism and name

:25:11.:25:13.

calling and move on together to do the job that we need to do, which is

:25:14.:25:18.

to be an effective government. You said today there are big issues

:25:19.:25:22.

around Europe, junior doctors going on strike for the first time in 40

:25:23.:25:26.

years and we have got an important job to do that my constituents

:25:27.:25:30.

expect us to be doing. The last thing they want, and if there is

:25:31.:25:35.

anything that Jeremy's leadership when taught us is that this

:25:36.:25:39.

internal, talking about each other and the factions and so on, that is

:25:40.:25:48.

what the public hate. They want big vision and big ideas and policies

:25:49.:25:50.

for the future. When I ask you about policy ideas you will not give me an

:25:51.:25:55.

answer. There cannot be a bigger idea than whether or not the Labour

:25:56.:25:59.

Party is moving towards unilateral nuclear disarmament. We have just

:26:00.:26:05.

had a huge chat about that. Ask me about education and the floods, the

:26:06.:26:09.

economy that needs to change for working people. Ask me about the

:26:10.:26:14.

crisis that is hitting families at the same time David Cameron is

:26:15.:26:17.

making a speech about families and his government is doing the opposite

:26:18.:26:21.

of supporting families. Ask me some of those things. On families are you

:26:22.:26:28.

disappointed that Alison McGovern, the chair of progress, has resigned

:26:29.:26:32.

from the policy forum on child poverty? It is a shame because

:26:33.:26:36.

Alison has got a huge amount to offer. I have known her for many

:26:37.:26:41.

years before both of us were Labour MPs and she has been a long-standing

:26:42.:26:46.

campaigner on issues of child poverty and international

:26:47.:26:48.

development and how we can change the economy to make it work for

:26:49.:26:53.

working people. I hope Allison continues to make a contribution to

:26:54.:26:57.

the Labour Party and I am sure she will, she is an effective

:26:58.:27:01.

parliamentarian. I know from speaking to her that the last thing

:27:02.:27:05.

she wants is all this attention that she is getting today and she was to

:27:06.:27:11.

move on and draw a line and what has happened and realign our fire

:27:12.:27:14.

knocked on each other, but on the Tories and on this government that

:27:15.:27:19.

is doing a terrible job of running this country. Let me return to Emily

:27:20.:27:25.

Thornberry. A year ago she accepted ?14,500 donation from a law firm

:27:26.:27:30.

which has been condemned by an enquiry for making false allegations

:27:31.:27:34.

against British soldiers which were wholly without merit, in the words

:27:35.:27:39.

of the enquiry. Now she is Shadow Defence Secretary should she

:27:40.:27:43.

returned that money? I do not know anything about that, I do not know

:27:44.:27:48.

about the law firm or the nature of the sponsorship and how it was given

:27:49.:27:52.

or what she is doing, but I am sure she will come on this programme and

:27:53.:27:56.

you can interrogate her about these issues as you happen to me the past.

:27:57.:28:01.

Very well, let's hope I will do better next time. Goodbye.

:28:02.:28:04.

Now, after last-ditch talks broke up on Friday without agreement

:28:05.:28:09.

a strike by Junior doctors, the first in over 40 years,

:28:10.:28:11.

It will lead to the cancellation of thousands of appointments

:28:12.:28:15.

and operations and the Government argues

:28:16.:28:17.

So what's prompted this virtually unprecedented action by Doctors?

:28:18.:28:20.

The Health Secretary is the star of a high-stakes medical drama.

:28:21.:28:27.

The supporting cast, junior doctors, the thousands of staff who finished

:28:28.:28:31.

medical school but are not consultants yet.

:28:32.:28:34.

It is over big changes to their contracts, from rotas

:28:35.:28:37.

to pay, changes which are much needed, according to the government,

:28:38.:28:42.

and their supporters in places like right of centre think tanks.

:28:43.:28:52.

It has wanted to move towards more of the seven-day week,

:28:53.:28:55.

which actually, I think that ambition is shared

:28:56.:28:57.

across the medical workforce, including junior doctors,

:28:58.:29:00.

and it wants to change the so-called pay progression,

:29:01.:29:02.

the way that junior doctors get paid more just for being in office

:29:03.:29:06.

for longer, just as they are doing to the rest of the public sector,

:29:07.:29:09.

so I think they were absolutely right to start this

:29:10.:29:11.

But the doctors are furious about it.

:29:12.:29:16.

Both sides have been negotiating for months,

:29:17.:29:18.

most recently on Friday, when the gap between them

:29:19.:29:21.

Let's look at some of the concessions made

:29:22.:29:30.

They want Saturday to be considered a normal working day.

:29:31.:29:35.

Initially they said antisocial hours which come with extra pay would not

:29:36.:29:37.

But that has been rolled back to 7:00pm.

:29:38.:29:43.

The Department of Health has also promised to introduce so-called

:29:44.:29:45.

guardians who will monitor that doctors are not forced to work

:29:46.:29:48.

They will have the power to fine NHS trusts who break the rules,

:29:49.:29:55.

and the Government reckons most junior doctors will actually see

:29:56.:29:58.

Jeremy Hunt says that agreement has been reached in 15 out of 16 areas,

:29:59.:30:04.

but I've spoken to someone on the junior doctors' negotiating

:30:05.:30:07.

team who told me that the number of unresolved issues

:30:08.:30:09.

Nadia is an anaesthetist at a London Hospital.

:30:10.:30:15.

She will be a consultant soon and is worried for the junior

:30:16.:30:18.

doctors who will follow in her footsteps.

:30:19.:30:21.

They will probably find themselves working more weekends,

:30:22.:30:23.

They would find their shifts much more erratic, much less compatible

:30:24.:30:31.

with having a normal life, which would affect the working lives

:30:32.:30:35.

of thousands of junior doctors who have families and children

:30:36.:30:38.

in school, and they would struggle with that.

:30:39.:30:42.

It would also affect patients, having erratic working lives,

:30:43.:30:45.

erratic working hours, is proven not to be good

:30:46.:30:49.

for anyone's health, and there are lots of studies that

:30:50.:30:51.

If this contract goes through, there is a high likelihood

:30:52.:30:57.

that is going to be the situation and those people will be in charge

:30:58.:31:00.

More than 70 junior doctors from hospitals along

:31:01.:31:05.

It is a repeat of 1975, the last time that junior

:31:06.:31:10.

On Tuesday, this generation of medics will provide only

:31:11.:31:13.

Another two strikes are coming with plans for no junior doctors

:31:14.:31:19.

This issue has even made it into the charts when an NHS choir

:31:20.:31:30.

One of the campaigners behind it says the government is not

:31:31.:31:36.

seeing the real problems in the health service.

:31:37.:31:42.

There are not enough staff, this is not in one hospital,

:31:43.:31:45.

this is every hospital in the country, there are not enough

:31:46.:31:47.

staff to deal with the demands in A

:31:48.:31:50.

There are not enough GPs, and GPs are leaving our health

:31:51.:31:54.

service, A doctors are leaving the health service.

:31:55.:31:56.

These are the key issues which need to be addressed,

:31:57.:32:00.

and they need to be addressed now, not after this contract negotiation

:32:01.:32:03.

or as part of a pay envelope, or any other speak the government

:32:04.:32:06.

Jeremy Hunt is convinced that a more seven-day NHS is the way

:32:07.:32:19.

But it looks like there could be plenty of cliffhangers

:32:20.:32:22.

Now, we asked for an interview with the doctors' union,

:32:23.:32:26.

the BMA, and the Department for Health but neither

:32:27.:32:29.

But we're joined now by the former Conservative MP and Health Secretary

:32:30.:32:33.

He now chairs the NHS Confederation which represents NHS Trusts.

:32:34.:32:41.

Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Our BMA militants spoiling for a

:32:42.:32:50.

fight, or has Jeremy Hunt bungled the negotiations and provoke

:32:51.:32:56.

hard-working doctors to stop work? The last thing patients want is a

:32:57.:33:01.

long running commentary about the behaviour of the negotiating

:33:02.:33:05.

parties. It is disappointing that we have got a strike action plan for

:33:06.:33:11.

this week, but what we need to see is the parties back in the

:33:12.:33:15.

negotiating room dealing with the detail that your report just

:33:16.:33:19.

highlighted. That can only be dealt with round the negotiating table.

:33:20.:33:26.

The overwhelming majority of doctors to back an unprecedented action of

:33:27.:33:33.

strikes, including a full strike in the third one, hardly suggests the

:33:34.:33:35.

negotiations have been handled with aplomb. What has been going on

:33:36.:33:42.

within the negotiating room is addressing the detail. Any pay

:33:43.:33:46.

negotiation, as you very well know, covers a mass of complex detail.

:33:47.:33:52.

There is a commitment from the BMA and the employers and the government

:33:53.:33:55.

to deliver better performance over the weekend and we have seen. We

:33:56.:34:01.

have seen in our hospitals that there is an issue around excess

:34:02.:34:05.

mortality. The government is right to address that issue. This is part

:34:06.:34:09.

of the response to that issue and that is a commitment that is shared

:34:10.:34:15.

by all the negotiators. It cannot be that accepted as they are going on

:34:16.:34:20.

strike. The government claims there are 11,000 unnecessary weekend

:34:21.:34:24.

deaths because of book cover. That is just a propaganda figure. It is

:34:25.:34:30.

right that the excess mortality is not just around we can cover, that

:34:31.:34:35.

is true. That figure is a propaganda figure. There is an analysis that

:34:36.:34:42.

shows there is excess mortality in British hospitals at weekends. That

:34:43.:34:47.

is an issue that the BMA, the doctors, the clinical leaders of the

:34:48.:34:50.

health service and the management leaders and the government from a

:34:51.:34:55.

policy point of view all understand needs to be reassessed. Except the

:34:56.:34:59.

report comes up with the 11000 and you said it is not possible to

:35:00.:35:03.

determine the extent to which these excess deaths may be preventable and

:35:04.:35:08.

it would be misleading to assume they were. It is a figure the

:35:09.:35:13.

Secretary of State uses all the time. Rash and misleading. I am not

:35:14.:35:18.

using it, but I say there is a need to look seriously on behalf of

:35:19.:35:22.

patients if there is evidence of excess mortality at the weekend. We

:35:23.:35:29.

know there is excess mortality. But that is not the right figure. Should

:35:30.:35:34.

we simply sit back and do nothing? If the figure is not right perhaps

:35:35.:35:39.

the Secretary of State should not be using it. Is it not wholly

:35:40.:35:43.

unrealistic to implement a full seven-day week cover in the NHS

:35:44.:35:48.

without an increase in overall NHS resources? That is what the

:35:49.:35:53.

government announced in the comprehensive spending review before

:35:54.:35:58.

Christmas. What is unrealistic... That is simply to keep the NHS

:35:59.:36:03.

ticking over, it is not to pay for seven days a week cover. It is

:36:04.:36:08.

unrealistic to imagine we can deliver the kind of health and care

:36:09.:36:13.

services we want in our country without addressing some of the

:36:14.:36:15.

fundamental issues around Funding. Let us look at the funding.

:36:16.:36:50.

The government is trying to implement seven-day week cover on

:36:51.:36:57.

health spending. That is essentially unchanged in real terms. Look at the

:36:58.:37:06.

health spending, as a share of our GDP, among the wealthier countries,

:37:07.:37:12.

we spend 8.5% of our GDP on health, that includes private health. These

:37:13.:37:16.

other countries, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, are all close

:37:17.:37:22.

to 11%. Given that we already spend less, how can we hope to have a

:37:23.:37:30.

seven day a week NHS on 8.5% of GDP? You dropped about slogans, can I

:37:31.:37:34.

pick up on this slogan, most people know perfectly well that we already

:37:35.:37:40.

have a seven-day NHS. What you say about this? The funding of the

:37:41.:37:46.

health service, that is precisely one of the issues with which I

:37:47.:37:53.

agree, it needs to be addressed. On a cross-party basis. That is one of

:37:54.:37:57.

the things I learned as chair of the cross-party health committee in the

:37:58.:38:01.

last parliament. Can we afford things like seven-day week full

:38:02.:38:05.

cover. That is what is being proposed with that level of health

:38:06.:38:13.

spending. Only island spends less than we do. I accept that there is

:38:14.:38:18.

an issue with excess mortality at weekends. What I do not accept is

:38:19.:38:26.

that we have a seven-day week NHS. Do you accept that we need to get

:38:27.:38:29.

closer to France and Germany than we are the moment on spending? I do

:38:30.:38:35.

agree that not just in this country, but right across the world over a

:38:36.:38:39.

very long period, as societies get richer they spend more of their

:38:40.:38:43.

income on health and care services. But we have to move away from

:38:44.:38:46.

thinking that the health service is an island. It is part of the care

:38:47.:38:52.

system and we have to look at that from a holistic pieces across health

:38:53.:38:56.

and care. That is why think we need a cross-party review in the medium

:38:57.:39:02.

and long-term. You're doing a commission and a hope you keep us

:39:03.:39:06.

appraised of that. It is coming up to 11:40pm. We say goodbye to

:39:07.:39:12.

viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday politics in Scotland.

:39:13.:39:18.

Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:19.:39:20.

Coming up on the programme: As David Cameron continues to press

:39:21.:39:23.

for reform of the EU how do politicians here view

:39:24.:39:25.

the prospect of a European referendum?

:39:26.:39:31.

Help for first-time buyers, and THAT reshuffle -

:39:32.:39:33.

we'll be speaking to the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian Murray live.

:39:34.:39:39.

So, a new year begins - and it's another election year.

:39:40.:39:41.

Voters go to the polls to choose their MSPs in May.

:39:42.:39:44.

But the prospect of a second national vote this year is looming

:39:45.:39:48.

increasingly large - could we have an EU

:39:49.:39:49.

David Cameron gave his ministers a free vote on the issue this week

:39:50.:39:55.

and told the Andrew Marr programme this morning he remains hopeful

:39:56.:39:58.

of making a deal next month on new terms for Britain's

:39:59.:40:01.

With a growing crop of campaigns on both sides of the argument,

:40:02.:40:05.

it was announced today that the former Labour MP Frank Roy

:40:06.:40:08.

will be Campaign Director in Scotland for Britain Stronger In

:40:09.:40:10.

Europe. Natalie Higgins reports.

:40:11.:40:17.

2016 is just ten days old, but David Cameron has already resumed his

:40:18.:40:24.

seemingly unending to review it. He is trying to persuade leaders to

:40:25.:40:32.

back his version of reforms for the EU. That means opting out of further

:40:33.:40:37.

political integration, more protection for non-EU countries and

:40:38.:40:45.

restricting benefits for EU workers who come to the UK. In Scotland,

:40:46.:40:49.

Ukip will be campaigning to leave but most parties are officially for

:40:50.:40:55.

staying in. However Labour MPs will be allowed a free vote.

:40:56.:41:03.

I think the more distinctive view, the most important view, is to put

:41:04.:41:07.

forward the case for a corporation generally, and a corporation that is

:41:08.:41:12.

possible within Europe, not just on terrorism and security and jobs, but

:41:13.:41:15.

on energy, to use the wind, wave and solar power that we can use in

:41:16.:41:21.

Scotland as part of the European great, cooperation on trade, or

:41:22.:41:25.

receives International aid and development. First Minister

:41:26.:41:28.

meanwhile is adamant that Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU

:41:29.:41:33.

against its well. But if the EU as a whole does vote for Brexit then

:41:34.:41:38.

Scotland would be an uncharted territory.

:41:39.:41:39.

The Scottish Government could say we want another independence referendum

:41:40.:41:44.

and want to stay in the EU. Westminster Mile not agree with

:41:45.:41:48.

that, then there will be another conflict. You might find that the

:41:49.:41:55.

parliament will say, we will not repeal EU laws, we do not agree with

:41:56.:42:00.

you, and then there would be a stalemate while Scotland with block

:42:01.:42:06.

Britain leaving the EU. The last, intriguing option, might be that

:42:07.:42:09.

Scotland would leave Europe with the rest of the UK but say, we want

:42:10.:42:15.

devolution of a lot of the EU policies so that we can negotiate a

:42:16.:42:18.

closer relationship with muscles than you, the UK, are planning to

:42:19.:42:28.

negotiate. The truth is nobody knows the extent

:42:29.:42:32.

to which those waters which are at the moment opposed to independence,

:42:33.:42:36.

how much they would be willing to change their view is the UK were to

:42:37.:42:44.

vote to leave the European Union. But certainly any very committed

:42:45.:42:48.

unionist who is really thinking about, which direction do I want

:42:49.:42:55.

this to go and perhaps is not completely committed to going

:42:56.:42:58.

outside of the European Union, might ask themselves, defying courage

:42:59.:43:02.

people to leave, maybe I will be bringing about the break-up of

:43:03.:43:07.

Britain. With the EU negotiations potentially

:43:08.:43:09.

been concluded as early as next month there is growing confidence

:43:10.:43:15.

there will be a vote this year, possibly as early as June. That

:43:16.:43:17.

would mean less talk on the continent and more debates here at

:43:18.:43:19.

home. Labour north and south of the border

:43:20.:43:21.

will campaign to remain in the EU, although MPs and MSPs

:43:22.:43:24.

will have a free vote. But there is a history

:43:25.:43:26.

of Euroscepticism from the far left. In the 1975 referendum to decide

:43:27.:43:29.

whether Britain should stay in the European Economic Community,

:43:30.:43:32.

as it was then called, both Tony Benn and Michael Foot

:43:33.:43:35.

campaigned prominently Under Tony Blair, opposition

:43:36.:43:37.

to the EU dwindled, but its current UK leader's position has

:43:38.:43:43.

been more ambivalent. Jeremy Corbyn has voted in favour

:43:44.:43:45.

of social measures and those As recently as September last year

:43:46.:43:53.

there was a question of whether he'd favour continuing

:43:54.:43:56.

membership of the EU? Well, to answer that,

:43:57.:44:02.

and other questions, the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian

:44:03.:44:07.

Murray joins us from our Edinburgh

:44:08.:44:09.

studio. Are all of the MSPs in labour here

:44:10.:44:22.

pro-euro? Think the vast majority of not just Labour members but Labour

:44:23.:44:26.

supporters are pro-Europe. We see the benefits of being part of... But

:44:27.:44:33.

do you see any Labour MSPs campaigning to leave? And do not

:44:34.:44:37.

know of any campaigning to leave. There are some MPs who are

:44:38.:44:48.

campaigning. They are running that Out campaign. We are broad church of

:44:49.:44:53.

a party. But Scottish Labour will be putting lots of resources behind

:44:54.:44:57.

staying in the European Union because it is in Scotland's

:44:58.:45:00.

interests to do so. As far as you are aware, you will all be

:45:01.:45:05.

campaigning to stay in? As far as I am aware, the entirety of Scottish

:45:06.:45:11.

Labour will be campaigning to stay in. Do not know any colleagues who

:45:12.:45:18.

will be of the view of wanting to leave. They will have a free vote in

:45:19.:45:21.

any case and that is the right thing to do. We will be campaigning very

:45:22.:45:27.

hard, it is in Scotland's national interest to do so. Would you be

:45:28.:45:30.

happy to campaign with conservatives who are in favour of staying in? We

:45:31.:45:39.

have set up our own distinct campaign, run by Alan Johnson at

:45:40.:45:45.

national level. We will be campaigning with the Labour Party,

:45:46.:45:49.

for the Labour Party, to stay in. Other parties will have their own

:45:50.:45:54.

campaigns. When you run through the referendum campaign there will be

:45:55.:45:57.

issues we will campaign on together and separately, but this is a

:45:58.:46:00.

distinct Labour campaign to keep Scotland and the United Kingdom in

:46:01.:46:06.

the EU. You would be happy to share a platform with conservatives who

:46:07.:46:11.

share your views? We will ship platforms was also the parties,

:46:12.:46:17.

including the SNP, the Greens -- we will be sharing platforms. There can

:46:18.:46:25.

only be one official Out and In campaign. What do you make of the

:46:26.:46:31.

SNP argument that shoot the eventuality arise that Scotland

:46:32.:46:39.

voted to leave, but the UK voted to stay in, that that would be

:46:40.:46:42.

justification for another independence referendum? The SNP

:46:43.:46:47.

have had between 15 and 20 justifications for another

:46:48.:46:51.

referendum. We should all sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of

:46:52.:46:55.

keeping Scotland and the UK in the EU. That is what we should all be

:46:56.:46:58.

campaigning on with one voice because it is good for Scottish job

:46:59.:47:05.

and Scottish corporations. -- jobs. Should that come to pass, how

:47:06.:47:10.

strongly do you feel about it? Do you think the British government

:47:11.:47:14.

would be entitled to say, no, you have just had a vote on independence

:47:15.:47:18.

and have faltered to stay in the UK and if the UK votes to leave that is

:47:19.:47:23.

it, you cannot have another referendum? The other question is

:47:24.:47:29.

true. What if the rest of the UK voted to stay in the European Union

:47:30.:47:34.

and Scotland voted to leave. This is a vote for the UK Parliament as the

:47:35.:47:39.

state that has the membership. That is what we are fighting to keep end.

:47:40.:47:47.

We will be fighting to make sure that it is larger than one vote to

:47:48.:47:57.

end. -- to win. We want to put this to bed as an issue so that we can

:47:58.:48:01.

start cooperating in Europe to get what we want. Whatever scenario we

:48:02.:48:06.

talk about, there is no justification in your view for

:48:07.:48:10.

another independence referendum? I cannot see where the justification

:48:11.:48:15.

would come from. On all of these issues, the economic case for

:48:16.:48:19.

independence is worse now than it was last year. We have to do what is

:48:20.:48:24.

in the best interest of Scotland and the Scottish people, that is why we

:48:25.:48:28.

are campaigning to stay end, it is the right thing to do. RU still a

:48:29.:48:35.

member of the Progress grip? Yes. How did you feel about it been

:48:36.:48:42.

described as part of our right-wing clique by the Chancellor of the

:48:43.:48:46.

Exchequer -- Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer? They need to ramp

:48:47.:48:53.

down the rhetoric. We are on Labour Party fighting to oppose the

:48:54.:48:57.

Conservative Government and when elections in Scotland in May. Some

:48:58.:49:00.

of the words that he chosen that particular interview were

:49:01.:49:03.

unnecessary and, indeed, you should be trying to unite the party rather

:49:04.:49:09.

than ramping up rhetoric against embers of the party who are loyal

:49:10.:49:12.

servants of Labour Party and their constituents and opponents of this

:49:13.:49:17.

austerity Conservative Government. How did you feel

:49:18.:49:35.

about Michael Dugher been fired? He will be a stronger thorn in the

:49:36.:49:45.

Conservatives's sides from the backbenches perhaps. I went to give

:49:46.:49:47.

can solidarity to some colleagues who had lost their jobs because that

:49:48.:49:51.

is the rate thing to do because they are good parliamentarians and close

:49:52.:49:57.

colleagues. You're close colleagues and friends have been sacked and you

:49:58.:50:00.

have been described as part of the hard right by a man who is the

:50:01.:50:07.

Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer. In this process, did you at any

:50:08.:50:11.

point considered doing what some of your other colleagues dead and

:50:12.:50:18.

quitting the Cabinet? No, we need a strong Scottish voice in the Shadow

:50:19.:50:21.

Cabinet, we have a big job to do here in Scotland. My only concern at

:50:22.:50:27.

the moment is to make sure we can put forward a policy platform for

:50:28.:50:30.

the 2016 Scottish elections that is bald and positive and radical and

:50:31.:50:34.

will take the fight to the Scottish Government and will win as many

:50:35.:50:40.

votes and seat is possible whilst holding this dreadful Conservative

:50:41.:50:42.

Government to account. I have no intention of resigning from the

:50:43.:50:45.

Shadow Cabinet because we are part of the team, we have a big job to do

:50:46.:50:52.

as the official opposition in this country and that is why we are

:50:53.:50:55.

working together as a team. Some of the language that has been used

:50:56.:50:58.

should be toned down slightly and we need to get back to doing what we

:50:59.:51:01.

should be doing, and that is being the official opposition. Do you

:51:02.:51:04.

think Jeremy Corbyn can win the next general election?

:51:05.:51:10.

Jeremy Corbyn is trying to do politics differently. It is not

:51:11.:51:16.

everyone's cup of tea. He wants to very carefully go through a policy

:51:17.:51:22.

development process and go through using his Shadow Cabinet and Shadow

:51:23.:51:26.

ministerial teams. He wants to involve as many people as he can and

:51:27.:51:30.

he is doing that in a very considered way. It is a new way of

:51:31.:51:34.

doing politics that we all have to consider. Then he get that kind of

:51:35.:51:38.

policy platform in place and gets the new policy in place that

:51:39.:51:42.

everyone wants to see we will see the benefit of that. This new policy

:51:43.:51:47.

that Kezia Dugdale promote with this week, basically giving money to

:51:48.:51:52.

first-time buyers, this was money that was supposedly going to be used

:51:53.:51:55.

to help people who would the affected by George Osborne's cuts to

:51:56.:52:01.

tax credits. He has since abandoned those. I struggle to see the logic

:52:02.:52:09.

of saying money you mark to help the police in society should now be

:52:10.:52:12.

given as a bunk to people who want to buy a house. I think you're being

:52:13.:52:18.

slightly unkind to this holiday. It was bold and radical. It is not the

:52:19.:52:23.

bond to people looking to buy a house but to support first-time

:52:24.:52:27.

buyers who are looking to get on the property ladder. People who qualify

:52:28.:52:33.

for this will already have been in a thief to buy ice that set up by the

:52:34.:52:37.

Tories and the Tories and they could have got 3000 homes from the

:52:38.:52:44.

conservative government already. It is saying we will do double poorly

:52:45.:52:49.

in Scotland. We have to be careful when using words like bung. The air

:52:50.:52:56.

passenger duty money was allocated to tax credits and that is no longer

:52:57.:52:59.

required to be used cause of the U-turn won in the house of lords.

:53:00.:53:05.

That money is available to be reallocated and Kezia Dugdale has

:53:06.:53:08.

reallocated that. The second thing is, let me just run through the

:53:09.:53:13.

hypothetical of a couple living together. If erect were to put ?100

:53:14.:53:21.

each into a help to buy ice they would have enough within two years

:53:22.:53:26.

to have it topped up to ?9,000 which would give each couple ?3000 each

:53:27.:53:33.

from Kezia Dugdale's policy. What is this got to do with helping the

:53:34.:53:39.

least well off in society? 96% of first-time buyers ie property less

:53:40.:53:45.

than ?250,000 so this is the kind of deposit you require. It is

:53:46.:53:49.

aspirational in terms of those who want to get on the property market.

:53:50.:53:55.

This is the right thing to do to help them. I think it is important.

:53:56.:54:00.

This isn't just about getting first-time buyers on the property

:54:01.:54:03.

market but about putting money into the economy. It is nothing better to

:54:04.:54:08.

stimulate the economy than people buying their first home. I am

:54:09.:54:13.

tempted to buy the same question again but I do not have time.

:54:14.:54:17.

For Unionists there's an added pressure in all this.

:54:18.:54:19.

Some may be Eurosceptic but worried that if a majority in Britain vote

:54:20.:54:22.

in favour of leaving but Scotland elects to remain part of the EU it

:54:23.:54:26.

could trigger a second independence referendum here and tear

:54:27.:54:28.

Here's Nicola Sturgeon talking last year about that eventuality.

:54:29.:54:38.

I have said before and I repeat again today that it Scotland was to

:54:39.:54:46.

find itself facing an EU exit that we hadn't voted for a second

:54:47.:54:51.

referendum may be unstoppable. It may be a material change to the

:54:52.:54:56.

circumstances in which last year's vote was taken. We will be

:54:57.:55:00.

campaigning for the UK to remain within the European Union.

:55:01.:55:03.

Well, to talk about that we have two Conservative politicians.

:55:04.:55:05.

In a moment we'll speak to the Conservative MEP Ian Duncan

:55:06.:55:08.

but first, from our Aberdeen studio, is MSP Alex Johnstone who supports

:55:09.:55:11.

the Prime Minister's endeavours to renegotiate terms.

:55:12.:55:16.

Alex, have you made up your mind which way you are going to vote? I

:55:17.:55:25.

have not. It depends entirely on the outcome of the negotiations the row

:55:26.:55:30.

minister is involved in. We have serious problems in Europe at the

:55:31.:55:35.

moment. These are obvious to anyone who watches news broadcasts. Our

:55:36.:55:38.

direction in Europe is inappropriate at this time which is why we need

:55:39.:55:42.

you can bring to be successful in these negotiations. I think my red

:55:43.:55:51.

line is a rather sense of direction. I see problems, political problems

:55:52.:55:56.

across Europe where the refugee crisis, for example, has affected

:55:57.:56:00.

relationships between countries and affected the article opinion within

:56:01.:56:05.

countries. I see the economic crisis we were talking about before this

:56:06.:56:08.

happened, particularly the state of the Greek economy and other smaller

:56:09.:56:12.

populations particularly in the south of Europe desperately needing

:56:13.:56:19.

assistance and attention. I see a Europe that is not designed to

:56:20.:56:21.

properly deal with that problem and written needs not to be right into

:56:22.:56:25.

that kind of situation against their will. I want a Europe that has a

:56:26.:56:31.

different sense of direction. One that is about opening up trade,

:56:32.:56:38.

competition, opportunity and not providing an economic and political

:56:39.:56:41.

straitjacket that will benefit some countries and disadvantage any more.

:56:42.:56:47.

If you decide David Cameron has not met those objectives you just

:56:48.:56:51.

outlined, will you campaign to leave the European Union? If we get to a

:56:52.:56:58.

position with it is obviously disadvantageous for Britain to

:56:59.:57:02.

remain within the EU then I think it is all our duty to ensure that we do

:57:03.:57:05.

the right thing and I would be repaired to support a vote to take

:57:06.:57:11.

us out of the YouTube in union if it was a disadvantage for us to stay

:57:12.:57:18.

in. -- the European Union. I want to stay in the European Union and I

:57:19.:57:21.

want David Cameron to achieve a deal. Do you know if any of your

:57:22.:57:27.

colleagues will be campaigning for exit? At this stage I would be

:57:28.:57:34.

surprised if any of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament declared

:57:35.:57:37.

that they would be campaigning for a noble. -- reinvent. The evidence

:57:38.:57:50.

seems to be that conservative voters are split on the issue. If you are

:57:51.:57:53.

the Conservatives aborted in Scotland I do feel very strongly

:57:54.:57:58.

written should leave the EU who, given that Ruth Davidson has told

:57:59.:58:00.

this programme several weeks ago that she would campaign for a yes

:58:01.:58:06.

vote irrespective of what David Cameron negotiated, who will

:58:07.:58:10.

represent these Tory voters who want out? It is entirely important that

:58:11.:58:19.

people will have their own opinions. What we have to remember is that it

:58:20.:58:25.

is equally irresponsible for anyone to take a position in advance of

:58:26.:58:29.

these negotiations whether we should be in or out, particularly those who

:58:30.:58:33.

find themselves in a position where they want Britain to be stronger

:58:34.:58:40.

within Europe. That is why it is so important that we wait for

:58:41.:58:42.

negotiations to take place, find out the deal that David Cameron is going

:58:43.:58:48.

to achieve and we vote on that deal and not on a broader principle which

:58:49.:58:51.

is not defined within David Cameron's negotiations. Before I let

:58:52.:58:58.

you go, with another hat on, you are a north-east MP, you have had

:58:59.:59:02.

terrible floods up there. We are also a farmer. Briefly tell us how

:59:03.:59:08.

the clean-up is going and whether you think farmers in particular need

:59:09.:59:13.

any more help from the government. One of the particular problems you

:59:14.:59:17.

is that farmers are not getting much help from the government at all. As

:59:18.:59:22.

you may be aware, most subsidy payments were gathered together many

:59:23.:59:25.

years ago into a single annual farm raiment. For many farmers, the

:59:26.:59:31.

majority in Scotland, they have not received last year's payment yet.

:59:32.:59:36.

They are at a particularly difficult point and are trying to recover from

:59:37.:59:42.

weather-related problems. It has to be said also that if you are farming

:59:43.:59:47.

in an alien not affected by flooding, the weather has been

:59:48.:59:50.

appalling and there have been impacted on people not directly

:59:51.:59:55.

affected by flooding to but those new Zealanders who have been

:59:56.:59:58.

directly affected by this could have seen their business washed away

:59:59.:00:02.

entirely. That is why we need more work from the government to make

:00:03.:00:07.

sure resources allocated by the UK Government which have come to

:00:08.:00:10.

Scotland through the Barnett formula are properly distributed. Hum of the

:00:11.:00:14.

things said by the First Minister yesterday suggests these things are

:00:15.:00:19.

happening but we did see a position earlier in the week where farmers in

:00:20.:00:23.

Cumbria were receiving support when people in Dumfries were not. Thank

:00:24.:00:27.

you for joining us. Listening to that is Conservative

:00:28.:00:30.

MEP Dr Ian Duncan, who's I think you intend to campaign to

:00:31.:00:40.

stay in Europe at a much irrespective of anything David

:00:41.:00:46.

Cameron comes up with? We have made significant progress during this

:00:47.:00:49.

period. I am a member of the European Parliament and it has been

:00:50.:00:53.

any 2% reduction in the laws passing through that particular payment.

:00:54.:00:58.

That is because of Britain doing less better. We are making

:00:59.:01:01.

substantial progress in reforming the EU. We are no longer standing

:01:02.:01:06.

alone when it comes to reform. If you look at other nations the word

:01:07.:01:09.

reform is now the forefront of their campaigning. You have actually

:01:10.:01:14.

gotten government now a number of parties who are ashamed and driving

:01:15.:01:19.

forward to reform the cause, after all, look where the EU is right now.

:01:20.:01:23.

It is calm. It is struggling to deal with its own feet of Rob 's. Whether

:01:24.:01:30.

in the Eurozone itself, the prices of the Mediterranean countries or

:01:31.:01:35.

the recent crises of migration. The bottom line is, if I asked you what

:01:36.:01:40.

are your red lines for David Cameron to negotiate? Your answer would be

:01:41.:01:46.

the are not any? There are red lines. I need to be sure keeping the

:01:47.:01:50.

pound is safe and we would not be compelled ever closer towards the

:01:51.:01:55.

union with other states. We need to be able to trust that going forward

:01:56.:01:59.

what we have now is protected and we can see that reform on the table but

:02:00.:02:04.

the leveraged the Prime Minister has secured by these negotiations and

:02:05.:02:08.

the referendum coming up it has led to a sea change in Brussels. The

:02:09.:02:12.

things you have mentioned can be pretty much met by some fine words.

:02:13.:02:19.

The issue of, for example, delays to benefit payments to immigrants, that

:02:20.:02:24.

is a much more hard issue. Is that a red line for you or do you not give

:02:25.:02:28.

further? Everything can be met by fine words but it is the force of

:02:29.:02:34.

law, we will need two CDs fine words enshrined in something binding, not

:02:35.:02:39.

just upon the UK but upon the role of the EU, only then can we be sure

:02:40.:02:43.

and save that we do have detection from being out with the Eurozone,

:02:44.:02:51.

and with the Schengen area. We will not consider the centrifugal force

:02:52.:02:55.

Dragon as ever closer to the centre. This is not just about Britain,

:02:56.:03:01.

member states across the EU are looking for the ability to do things

:03:02.:03:06.

differently, less and better. At the forefront is the United Kingdom. Do

:03:07.:03:13.

you think this should be a referendum on Europe? You think it

:03:14.:03:19.

is a good thing to have it? Is it a good thing to have it? I think the

:03:20.:03:23.

leveraging the EU has given more power in the negotiations. The SNP

:03:24.:03:31.

and Scottish Government have top about, should, by any chance,

:03:32.:03:36.

Britain vote no to Europe and Scotland vote yes, they would see

:03:37.:03:40.

that as justification for another independence referendum. What do you

:03:41.:03:45.

make of that argument? The SNP a national list party and they assert

:03:46.:03:52.

independence is a declared objective. I think any excuse would

:03:53.:03:56.

be fine to have that there can referendum. The Scottish National

:03:57.:04:02.

party and government did not give an to Orkney, Shetland, Dumfries and

:04:03.:04:05.

the oil anywhere else should they wish to remain part of the UK. The

:04:06.:04:11.

issue was that we remained part of the United Kingdom and this issue of

:04:12.:04:15.

whether the EU with the good, bad or indifferent, was very clearly aired.

:04:16.:04:21.

I do not think we can say we would be unsure what would happen if there

:04:22.:04:24.

was a referendum. We would be bound by the will of the people. Should

:04:25.:04:31.

that eventuality arise, do you think it would be justified for David

:04:32.:04:35.

Cameron and the British government, even Cameron has already said it

:04:36.:04:38.

would not be another independence referendum as long as yet the yen,

:04:39.:04:44.

would he be justified in those circumstances to say you have had

:04:45.:04:47.

your independence referendum and voted to stay in Britain. You might

:04:48.:04:53.

have voted to stay in the EU and we voted to go out but I will simply

:04:54.:04:56.

not allow another independence referendum? It was very clear during

:04:57.:05:01.

the last referendum we were told it would be once during a referendum

:05:02.:05:07.

but it is fast approaching. I do not doubt a party which thinks they are

:05:08.:05:12.

better out with the UK will continue to push for another referendum.

:05:13.:05:26.

voted right back should they say, if you want one then you can have

:05:27.:05:30.

another one? My opinion is that there will not be another

:05:31.:05:35.

independence referendum, that is the statement from the first Minister.

:05:36.:05:38.

They do not think that she will say that there will never be one, but at

:05:39.:05:43.

the same time we have one referendum coming and I do believe that we will

:05:44.:05:48.

vote to stay in and therefore the second question will not arise. At

:05:49.:05:52.

the nationalist government you will find another reason to have a second

:05:53.:05:56.

independence referendum, that is only a matter of time.

:05:57.:05:59.

It's been a few weeks since we were last here.

:06:00.:06:01.

Let's have a look at what's been happening and what's coming up

:06:02.:06:04.

Joining me is the Times Scotland editor, Lindsay McIntosh,

:06:05.:06:12.

and the Observer columnist Kevin McKenna.

:06:13.:06:21.

Lindsay, just on Europe, suddenly out of the blue everyone is talking

:06:22.:06:27.

about having this in a few weeks or months rather than next year. Yes,

:06:28.:06:33.

people are talking about June or October, September time. All of this

:06:34.:06:36.

is dependent on the kind of deal David Cameron is to get in this

:06:37.:06:41.

deadly meeting. If you can come out of that with something then he might

:06:42.:06:52.

say, go to the polls on June -- surgery meeting. It also presumably

:06:53.:07:03.

depends on the opinion polls? If you came back and said, I have a deal,

:07:04.:07:08.

and it was a big majority for staying in in the opinion polls, he

:07:09.:07:14.

might be tempted to say, let us just, right now, whereas if it is

:07:15.:07:19.

less predictable he might say, let us have a long campaign. He will

:07:20.:07:27.

look at the independence referendum campaign and issues that arose from

:07:28.:07:33.

a long campaign. That did his side and no favours. If you're looking at

:07:34.:07:38.

a site which has the wage to start with, they are interested in having

:07:39.:07:45.

a quick poll. Kevin, I know you do not necessarily regard yourself as a

:07:46.:07:48.

conservative vote who is in favour of leaving the EU, but the do

:07:49.:07:53.

deserve representation and listening to her two representatives there it

:07:54.:07:56.

does not look like they will get any. As you rightly observed

:07:57.:08:02.

earlier, the Tory vote in Scotland seems to be divided on this issue,

:08:03.:08:08.

there does not seem to be a clear majority one way or another amongst

:08:09.:08:10.

the rank-and-file Tories. But if you believe Ian Murray there will not be

:08:11.:08:18.

anybody standing up for a Labour voters... What David Cameron was

:08:19.:08:24.

seeing on Andrew Marr this morning, there does not appear to be any

:08:25.:08:30.

lead. David Cameron as saying, my government is going to campaign to

:08:31.:08:34.

stay in Europe, so all of the machinery of government will go for

:08:35.:08:39.

it, but you can have a free vote. But it seems to me that senior

:08:40.:08:43.

Conservative figures seem to be afraid to be too extreme one way or

:08:44.:08:46.

the other when they try to watch their language. If you are of two

:08:47.:08:52.

mains as a Conservative, there is very little leadership either way,

:08:53.:08:57.

there is no prevailing argument. This thing about, we will see what

:08:58.:09:00.

sort of deal David Cameron comes back with, we saw David Cameron

:09:01.:09:05.

during the week on first name terms with the Hungarian President, this

:09:06.:09:10.

being the Hungarian President who set himself up as some kind of

:09:11.:09:14.

Christian despot, invading Christendom and the West against the

:09:15.:09:21.

hordes of Islam a few months ago. I think it is getting quite confused

:09:22.:09:26.

and again, if I was a Conservative, I would be saying, you need to do

:09:27.:09:29.

better than that either side if you're going to get my vote one way

:09:30.:09:35.

or another. Lindsay, the Labour reshuffle, or you more in Pewsey

:09:36.:09:38.

Astec abated then Ian Murray? His language was interesting. John

:09:39.:09:46.

McDonnell coming out in front of the cameras and criticising process,

:09:47.:09:51.

saying things like right wing clique. He was seeing, we need to

:09:52.:10:02.

halt the rhetoric. He was the only possibility for the shadow Scottish

:10:03.:10:05.

Secretary, he can come out and say, this is what I think, without fear

:10:06.:10:11.

of his position. Have we resolved anything? I can see the narrow

:10:12.:10:16.

issue, that of Jeremy Corbyn once Labour to be unilateralist then he

:10:17.:10:18.

has taken place in the rate the rich. At this basic problem that the

:10:19.:10:24.

Conservatives have, is that really been resolved? Has been a lot of

:10:25.:10:34.

backbiting and briefing against people and it has not looked great

:10:35.:10:37.

and the public. A lot of language being used, words like disloyalty,

:10:38.:10:42.

it does not look right at all. What Jeremy Corbyn has done is a lot of

:10:43.:10:46.

empire building. He has got a stronger Shadow Cabinet, for good

:10:47.:10:54.

empire building. He has got a look like a stronger power in arenas

:10:55.:10:55.

like these ones. This is look like a stronger power in arenas

:10:56.:10:59.

recently, Kevin. The other way of look like a stronger power in arenas

:11:00.:11:06.

People inside politics care about this,

:11:07.:11:06.

great, we have a left-wing Labour Party. This was clearly flagged up

:11:07.:11:18.

with the result and conduct of the Labour leadership campaign. Jeremy

:11:19.:11:22.

Corbyn was not even expected to stand, and there were even less

:11:23.:11:25.

expectations that he would win by the huge majority that he did win

:11:26.:11:32.

by. Even then it was flagged up that the overwhelming majority of

:11:33.:11:34.

ordinary rank-and-file members in the country were backing him, but we

:11:35.:11:37.

ordinary rank-and-file members in knew he would have a problem

:11:38.:11:41.

the Parliamentary Party. We know that he has a

:11:42.:11:45.

the Parliamentary Party. We know Labour Party. People say,

:11:46.:11:46.

the Parliamentary Party. We know one thing, but these

:11:47.:11:51.

the Parliamentary Party. We know understand that one thing is having

:11:52.:11:54.

enough people to have a big mass demonstrations not the same as

:11:55.:11:56.

winning elections. But the Prince country are saying, this is

:11:57.:12:03.

interesting. Win we knew he would have a battle on his party with the

:12:04.:12:08.

leftovers of Tony Blair. This is being played out. Many people will

:12:09.:12:13.

say, what is the problem with trying to impose your authority, influence

:12:14.:12:16.

and command on your own party and cabinet? Some might say that the

:12:17.:12:20.

reason why there was a three-day process in the reshuffle was because

:12:21.:12:25.

he was being too nice. He was being too considerate, taking

:12:26.:12:28.

he was being too nice. He was being many people's views. I would not

:12:29.:12:31.

have expected David Cameron to give house room to anybody who showed the

:12:32.:12:37.

slightest sign of opposition within his Cabinet on serious issues.

:12:38.:12:40.

Jeremy Corbyn is just doing what he was or was going to do, it will take

:12:41.:12:45.

him off while and it will be at least two elections, possibly three,

:12:46.:12:48.

both in Scotland and England, before Labour will be in a position to

:12:49.:12:54.

govern anyway. There is a view which is taken by many Labour MPs that,

:12:55.:12:58.

look, all you no actress Labour Party will never when the general

:12:59.:13:04.

election -- unilateralist Labour Party. It was most effective in

:13:05.:13:12.

1997. That is not the party Jeremy Corbyn is being forward now. What

:13:13.:13:17.

happens to those people? That is not the Labour Party for them under

:13:18.:13:21.

Jeremy Corbyn. I think there is a lot of years in the wilderness for

:13:22.:13:28.

them. As Kevin said, would you agree with him that it is at least two

:13:29.:13:32.

elections away? It is looking like it at the moment, although goodness

:13:33.:13:36.

knows what is happening in that party at the moment, who might be

:13:37.:13:40.

coming forward. We are seeing names being bandied about as potential

:13:41.:13:44.

equivalents to Jeremy Corbyn. It will depend whether that arm of the

:13:45.:13:47.

party can get organisation behind it. That is all we have time for

:13:48.:13:55.

this week. I will be back next week. Until then, from all of us on the

:13:56.:13:56.

programme, goodbye.

:13:57.:14:00.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer discuss EU renegotiation with David Davis, Labour under Jeremy Corbyn with Lucy Powell, and a seven-day health service with NHS Confederation chair Stephen Dorrell. Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Helen Lewis of the New Statesman and Nick Watt of the Guardian discuss the papers.


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