31/01/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


31/01/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by shadow chancellor John McDonnell, Steve Baker, Lord Digby Jones and businessman Richard Reed.


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Transcript


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George Osborne called it a "major success".

:00:35.:00:39.

Google say they're paying what's due, but Shadow Chancellor John

:00:40.:00:42.

We'll ask him how he'd get big business to pay more tax.

:00:43.:00:48.

David Cameron says he wants an emergency brake on access

:00:49.:00:50.

to welfare benefits for EU migrants to be applied immediately

:00:51.:00:53.

But will that be enough for the PM to clinch a deal and head

:00:54.:01:00.

And will it be best for business if we stay in or we get out?

:01:01.:01:06.

We'll examine the claim and counter claim and bring the two sides

:01:07.:01:09.

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:10.:01:14.

As Labour's new leadership fights its first election,

:01:15.:01:17.

its prospective candidates are battling to get

:01:18.:01:18.

And taking time out from their protracted negotiations

:01:19.:01:34.

with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over how much tax

:01:35.:01:36.

they should pay on their enormous fees - the best and the brightest

:01:37.:01:42.

political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

:01:43.:01:44.

and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:45.:01:50.

First this morning, George Osborne hailed Google's back tax bill

:01:51.:01:52.

Since then the settlement's been condemned as too lenient by -

:01:53.:01:59.

among others - Boris Johnson, The Sun, Rupert Murdoch

:02:00.:02:01.

and the Labour Party, which has accused the Chancellor

:02:02.:02:04.

of offering the internet giant "mates' rates".

:02:05.:02:07.

In a moment, I'll be talking to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:02:08.:02:11.

First here's Google executive, Peter Barron, defending the company

:02:12.:02:14.

on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

:02:15.:02:18.

What I would say is that in the UK we pay corporation tax at 20%.

:02:19.:02:22.

It's absolutely the same corporation tax rate as everybody else,

:02:23.:02:26.

Yes, but you keep coming back to this point about sales.

:02:27.:02:34.

We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the activities,

:02:35.:02:36.

the economic activities of Google UK.

:02:37.:02:39.

So, we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%,

:02:40.:02:42.

and, actually, globally, our effective tax rate over the last

:02:43.:02:49.

five years or so is round about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate,

:02:50.:02:53.

And I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor,

:02:54.:03:00.

Welcome. What single step would you take to make sure that companies

:03:01.:03:13.

like Google, Apple, Amazon, pay a fair and appropriate level of tax?

:03:14.:03:19.

Openness and transparency. I want the information about how this deal

:03:20.:03:23.

has been arrived at and I want them to publish in the future there tax

:03:24.:03:30.

records. So that we can have openness and transparency, see what

:03:31.:03:35.

is fair. The Chancellor said this was a major success. But we cannot

:03:36.:03:38.

tell because we have not got the information. Would you extend that

:03:39.:03:45.

to British major companies publishing their tax? Six out of ten

:03:46.:03:50.

of the UK's biggest companies are not paying any corporation tax. Yes,

:03:51.:03:56.

I would. The suggestion has been put forward about the FTSE 100. That is

:03:57.:04:00.

a good idea. There would be no commercial disadvantage. Do you

:04:01.:04:07.

think that transparency would be a major step forward? It is one step

:04:08.:04:13.

forward. We want country by country reporting as well. I supported

:04:14.:04:16.

George Osborne on as negotiations in Europe with that. We're not going to

:04:17.:04:22.

get enough. I found quite angry making this morning that we have

:04:23.:04:27.

allegation -- allegations that their Conservatives were voting their MEPs

:04:28.:04:30.

to vote against this. I find that frustrating. I want HMRC to be

:04:31.:04:36.

properly resourced so they can do the job. There are too many job

:04:37.:04:41.

cuts. We have lost too much expertise. There is time now to

:04:42.:04:44.

start thinking about how we review our tax system. The Treasury select

:04:45.:04:53.

committee has undertaken a review. Corporation tax is levied on

:04:54.:04:58.

profits. Even if you got your transparency, you would quickly find

:04:59.:05:01.

that the concept of profits that can be moved around geographically, they

:05:02.:05:06.

can be manipulated depending on costs, would you consider replacing

:05:07.:05:12.

corporation tax with, for example, a tax on corporate sales? Revenues are

:05:13.:05:16.

less malleable than profits. That is one of the issues to be addressed.

:05:17.:05:20.

Nigel Lawson has done an article to that effect. One of the most

:05:21.:05:27.

important things is to secure international agreement. We cannot

:05:28.:05:30.

have the situation where companies are shopping around the world to

:05:31.:05:34.

find the lowest tax regime and inventing company structures to

:05:35.:05:38.

enable that to happen. But if you had a tax on the revenues, it would

:05:39.:05:43.

not happen what they moved around. Revenues are revenues. You would

:05:44.:05:48.

levy a tax on the revenues in the UK. That is why it is worth looking

:05:49.:05:54.

at. It might be a combination of that and economic activity as well.

:05:55.:05:59.

One professor said if you raise corporate taxes too high, companies

:06:00.:06:03.

may move to island macro or elsewhere. Do you accept there has

:06:04.:06:09.

to be a limit? There has to be a limit, there has to be some

:06:10.:06:13.

reasonableness. If we can get international cooperation, you can

:06:14.:06:15.

avoid this development of virtual tax havens taking place. Would you

:06:16.:06:21.

want a common rate of corporation tax? Not necessarily. You would like

:06:22.:06:27.

to make sure that what you charge is reasonable and fair and you would

:06:28.:06:30.

expect those companies to abide by that. I listened to the Google

:06:31.:06:36.

representative this morning. The reputational damage to Google is

:06:37.:06:40.

immense. The savings they have made in taxes not worth the reputational

:06:41.:06:45.

damage. Let's move on to the other big issue, Europe. And membership.

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How did you vote in the 1975 referendum? Against. In the 1983

:06:56.:07:04.

Labour manifesto it claimed that a commitment to radical socialist

:07:05.:07:06.

policies was incompatible with membership of the European Union. It

:07:07.:07:13.

proposed withdrawal. Did you agree with that at the time? I did at the

:07:14.:07:18.

time. That is long gone. We're within Europe. We are working within

:07:19.:07:28.

Europe with other parties to see how we can make Europe fair,

:07:29.:07:29.

particularly with regard to the rights of workers. Take this tax

:07:30.:07:33.

issue. We need to be in Europe to ensure we can secure fair agreement

:07:34.:07:46.

on tax. That is why, by remaining within, we have got to remain within

:07:47.:07:49.

with their own reform agenda, that is one of the issues we need to

:07:50.:07:54.

reform. To take that phrase radical socialist policies, you are

:07:55.:07:58.

committed to radical socialist policies. How is that now compatible

:07:59.:08:06.

with remaining in the EU when it was not in 1983? Because we have

:08:07.:08:10.

demonstrated with the work we have undertaken within the EU that we

:08:11.:08:15.

have secured some benefits. Employment rights. In addition,

:08:16.:08:18.

there are real opportunities now where we can work with others to

:08:19.:08:22.

secure that radical change. Withdrawal from Europe at the moment

:08:23.:08:26.

would not be beneficial. It would lose jobs. It would undermine the

:08:27.:08:30.

benefits we have gained in terms of employment. That is why we want to

:08:31.:08:33.

work to reform it. The issue that I have got with the Prime Minister, we

:08:34.:08:38.

will see what he comes back with... On the social Europe issue, you want

:08:39.:08:44.

a more social Europe. In France you have got a socialist government that

:08:45.:08:48.

has moved to the right. In Germany, a centre-right government. Other

:08:49.:08:53.

countries have a centre-right government. Other

:08:54.:08:57.

in power or the hard right at the top of the polls. Where is your

:08:58.:09:02.

social Europe in that? That is why we will work with socialist and

:09:03.:09:08.

social Democrats. I think you will see in the coming years that a wider

:09:09.:09:13.

debate is taking place. In some way the referendum debate will enable us

:09:14.:09:19.

to then look at those ideas. Wouldn't it be fair to say that like

:09:20.:09:24.

Jeremy Corbyn, you are pretty lukewarm about our membership of the

:09:25.:09:30.

European Union? I signed up to remain within the EU. That does not

:09:31.:09:34.

mean to say that we accepted as a perfect institution. We want to see

:09:35.:09:41.

reform. I come back to the tax issue. Unless we get international

:09:42.:09:45.

cooperation, particularly across Europe, we will not solve this

:09:46.:09:51.

problem. You have got a Eurosceptic track record. Kate Hoey, a leader --

:09:52.:09:57.

leading Labour Eurosceptic, she said that you and Jeremy Corbyn

:09:58.:10:00.

consistently voted with Eurosceptic MPs on the EU. That is true, isn't

:10:01.:10:07.

it? On a number of issues, because we were frustrated with the slow

:10:08.:10:10.

pace of reform. That does not mean we are in favour of coming out. It

:10:11.:10:15.

is better to argue from within to secure a commonality of agreement.

:10:16.:10:21.

Do you broadly support the changes that David Cameron is trying to

:10:22.:10:26.

renegotiate? I don't know what they are yet. Let's see what he comes

:10:27.:10:31.

back with. My fear is if he does not treat this issue seriously and it is

:10:32.:10:34.

just about party management, he could blow it. We could be outside

:10:35.:10:39.

of Europe and have the economic penalties as a result. Even if he

:10:40.:10:44.

comes back with something you do not regard as satisfactory, you will

:10:45.:10:48.

campaign to stay in? We will campaign for our own agenda. The

:10:49.:10:54.

government wants to get this done by the end of June. Will you cooperate

:10:55.:10:59.

with that timetable? We will see what he comes back with. Let's have

:11:00.:11:05.

it as soon as possible. We want the debate to take place. Delaying it

:11:06.:11:09.

would not help. We want the debate to start now. It would be better for

:11:10.:11:15.

him to come back fairly soon. Get the debate going. Even if the

:11:16.:11:18.

campaign overlaps with important elections in Scotland, England,

:11:19.:11:23.

Northern Ireland, Wales? That is the problem but it will overlap with

:11:24.:11:28.

something. Immigration is good to be a huge issue. The IMF says that

:11:29.:11:31.

almost 4 million immigrants will arrive in the EU between 2015 and

:11:32.:11:38.

2017. Almost 4 million. Should Britain take a fair share of that? I

:11:39.:11:43.

think is important we cooperate with our European partners to make that

:11:44.:11:47.

we can accommodate those that need to come to this country. In

:11:48.:11:51.

addition, that we have systems in place that protect wages, so that

:11:52.:11:56.

immigration is not used to undermine wages. But should we take a fair

:11:57.:12:02.

share of the 4 million? I think we should. We should cooperate with

:12:03.:12:08.

others and carry the burden. The majority of Britons want us to rise

:12:09.:12:12.

to it and ensure we assist others and that others are not suffering,

:12:13.:12:16.

and that we do not stand on one side when people suffer. Could you give

:12:17.:12:21.

an indication of how many? Young not at this stage. That would be a

:12:22.:12:27.

matter to negotiate with our European partners. Should we

:12:28.:12:32.

volunteered to be part of the EU quotas system? Mrs Merkel and others

:12:33.:12:38.

want 160,000 to be relocated through Schengen. Should we be part of

:12:39.:12:45.

Schengen? Should we be part of the 160,000? We should be doing more in

:12:46.:12:48.

terms of assisting refugees coming from Syria. We should be doing more

:12:49.:12:54.

to help those in desperate need. People are drowning in the

:12:55.:12:57.

Mediterranean. We cannot stand aside. This country has a history of

:12:58.:13:03.

receiving refugees. People watching this would want some sort of idea of

:13:04.:13:07.

numbers because numbers are important. It is important. That is

:13:08.:13:12.

why we need to get into these negotiations quickly and come back

:13:13.:13:17.

with practical proposals. In 2013 you told a gathering of the people's

:13:18.:13:21.

assembly at a rally on immigration that they should be open borders? I

:13:22.:13:28.

was arguing then... There was re-search looking at the long-term

:13:29.:13:33.

structure of the globe. Inevitably in this century we will have open

:13:34.:13:37.

borders. The movement of peoples across the globe will mean that

:13:38.:13:40.

borders will almost become irrelevant by the end of the

:13:41.:13:45.

century. We should be preparing for that and explaining why people move.

:13:46.:13:49.

Conflicts, poverty and destitution, and also climate change. In our

:13:50.:13:54.

policy-making we should be working now to see how we address that. It

:13:55.:13:59.

will mean that we need to look at how we resolve conflicts, how we

:14:00.:14:02.

make the world more equal and also how we tackle climate change. In

:14:03.:14:08.

that way we can deal with the reality of the world, which means

:14:09.:14:12.

that people are not forced to move but there will be movement. Total

:14:13.:14:17.

open borders? At the end of this century that is what will occur.

:14:18.:14:21.

People are ignoring borders already as they fly from Syria. We should be

:14:22.:14:25.

making sure that if there is no forced movement, we look at the push

:14:26.:14:32.

and pull factors. Conflict prevention, the tackling of

:14:33.:14:35.

inequality and policies that tackle climate change. In that way we can

:14:36.:14:41.

cope with the global pressures with regard to population movement. To do

:14:42.:14:45.

that, for a Labour government to prepare for that, would be loosening

:14:46.:14:51.

controls as you move towards that? No. What I am saying is if you look

:14:52.:14:55.

at the analysis of what is happening over the next 75 years, the movement

:14:56.:15:01.

of people is such that borders are very difficult to maintain. That

:15:02.:15:05.

will happen by the end of the century. We should be opening up the

:15:06.:15:09.

debate of how we handle that. One of the issues we have to tackle is why

:15:10.:15:14.

people are moving. It is about conflict and climate change. It is

:15:15.:15:17.

about poverty as well. That means greater equality not just in our

:15:18.:15:21.

country but across the globe. I wanted to talk to you about Google

:15:22.:15:26.

and the EU. I hope you will come back and give me an interview on

:15:27.:15:30.

economic policy. Let me finish with a taster? Back to Professor

:15:31.:15:38.

Blanchflower, he said about you and Mr Corbyn that you have to accept

:15:39.:15:43.

the realities of capitalism and modern markets, like it or not. No

:15:44.:15:48.

more silly stuff about companies not being able to pay dividends if they

:15:49.:15:55.

do not do X or Y. Do you accept that? That is why I appointed him as

:15:56.:16:00.

an advisor. I wanted objective advice. I have established the

:16:01.:16:04.

architecture for the future development of economic policy.

:16:05.:16:11.

Are you going to accept his advice on that? We will listen to his

:16:12.:16:17.

advice and take it on board. But we will also listen to other advisers.

:16:18.:16:24.

But those advisers, what's the point of them if you will not listen? We

:16:25.:16:28.

will test every policy we put forward. On that one, we are hoping

:16:29.:16:32.

that we would avoid any need for that by introducing as we come into

:16:33.:16:36.

covenant a real living wage. In the meantime, we want to campaign with

:16:37.:16:40.

shareholders so they pressurise their companies to abide by a real

:16:41.:16:44.

living wage. I think there is an alliance to be built there. Is it

:16:45.:16:48.

party policy that if companies don't pay what you regard as a living

:16:49.:16:52.

wage, until it's made mandatory, that they shouldn't be allowed to

:16:53.:16:56.

pay dividends? it's one of ideas we have floated for discussion. We have

:16:57.:17:01.

put it to the economic advisers to get their view. Angela Eagle said

:17:02.:17:06.

it's unworkable. That's why it's open for discussion. It's a really

:17:07.:17:11.

good campaigning tool for us to work with shareholders to make sure they

:17:12.:17:14.

exert their influence to ensure their companies, on things like the

:17:15.:17:18.

living wage and paying their taxes as well, to make sure their

:17:19.:17:22.

companies are acting appropriately. John McDonnell, I hope you come back

:17:23.:17:25.

to continue the debate with us. I certainly well.

:17:26.:17:29.

So, David Cameron once dismissed the idea of an emergency

:17:30.:17:31.

This morning, Downing Street is indicating that a brake

:17:32.:17:34.

on welfare benefits for EU migrants might be acceptable

:17:35.:17:37.

if it was applied immediately, but only as a stop-gap measure.

:17:38.:17:39.

This evening, the Prime Minister meets EU Council President Donald

:17:40.:17:43.

Tusk as he tries to broker a deal ahead of a crunch summit of European

:17:44.:17:49.

leaders next month - but will the fractious leave

:17:50.:17:53.

campaigns be in any position to take advantage if he's seen to fail?

:17:54.:17:56.

Right now the future of Britain inside or outside the European Union

:17:57.:18:06.

You might think it started here in Brussels, or that the media's

:18:07.:18:12.

massed ranks are awaiting the outcome in the European

:18:13.:18:22.

This week the decision was made in Havering, in Essex.

:18:23.:18:27.

In this chamber right now, Havering councillors are debating

:18:28.:18:30.

We will, when the referendum comes. will change, because the smart among

:18:31.:18:44.

Nevertheless Havering Council deliberately didn't deliberate

:18:45.:18:47.

on the leisure centre or meals on wheels.

:18:48.:18:52.

However the Prime Minister meanwhile was hurrying for a deal on wheels -

:18:53.:19:05.

It's his plan to block in-work benefits for EU migrants for four

:19:06.:19:08.

years that's getting the bumpiest ride.

:19:09.:19:09.

The EU counter proposal of an an "emergency brake" on access

:19:10.:19:12.

to benefits - if a country can prove it's welfare system's under strain -

:19:13.:19:15.

has not gone down well with Eurosceptics back home.

:19:16.:19:17.

They are saying we are allowed to go to Brussels,

:19:18.:19:25.

and ask their permission to change the benefit rules,

:19:26.:19:27.

David Cameron still wants that benefit ban, and knows accepting

:19:28.:19:34.

the emergency brake as is would only accelerate any campaign to leave.

:19:35.:19:38.

We want to end the idea of something for nothing.

:19:39.:19:41.

It's not good enough, it needs more work,

:19:42.:19:47.

I believe we've got to put country before party,

:19:48.:19:54.

country before personality, vote for freedom, and vote for leave.

:19:55.:19:58.

In Havering they aren't waiting for a date or a settlement.

:19:59.:20:01.

The Prime Minster knows Brexit supporters are eyeing his own

:20:02.:20:04.

Cabinet to see who might be tempted do the same.

:20:05.:20:07.

Michael Gove might come out for leave.

:20:08.:20:11.

Boris Johnson, though it's rather doubtful,

:20:12.:20:17.

might just possibly come out for leave, to vote for leave.

:20:18.:20:20.

Theresa May, who almost certainly is preoccupied

:20:21.:20:21.

And finally, Sajid Javid, the Business Secretary,

:20:22.:20:26.

who has the most Eurosceptic record of all.

:20:27.:20:30.

But it's very difficult, when you are a government minister,

:20:31.:20:32.

and you've got real feelings of loyalty to your party

:20:33.:20:35.

and your Prime Minister, to depart from the line.

:20:36.:20:39.

And a lot of pressure, moral pressure, if you like,

:20:40.:20:42.

A Havering Borough MP thinks that kind of pressure is wrong.

:20:43.:20:52.

I think that this is a decision that we all have to make

:20:53.:20:55.

And it shouldn't impede on people's political careers.

:20:56.:21:00.

People should be able to make up their own minds,

:21:01.:21:03.

and not worry about whether they are going to be sidelined or punished

:21:04.:21:06.

Those who do out themselves for out, will need campaign wizards who can

:21:07.:21:11.

Which, of two battling groups, that is yet undecided,

:21:12.:21:18.

but so far both have seen a bad spell of personality clashes

:21:19.:21:23.

and darkening moods way over the heads of most grassroots

:21:24.:21:25.

The chance of winning over undeclared MPs is the magic

:21:26.:21:29.

What we did discover, it's like the dementors slowly

:21:30.:21:39.

sucking the people up out of the air, body

:21:40.:21:43.

I do think that there will be a coming together now,

:21:44.:21:47.

probably for very good reasons, there have been divisions

:21:48.:21:49.

But I think this campaign will not be just politicians.

:21:50.:21:53.

It's about the people versus the elite in many ways.

:21:54.:21:55.

In fact, you have a referendum really in many ways when politicians

:21:56.:21:58.

Meanwhile back in Havering... is they want to do.

:21:59.:22:01.

party motion is therefore carried by 30 votes to 15.

:22:02.:22:06.

So, councillors in Havering have voted for a motion that says

:22:07.:22:11.

Now, there are plenty of councillors who said they don't have any

:22:12.:22:19.

business debating this, they have far more important things

:22:20.:22:21.

But what it might show is that for some people -

:22:22.:22:26.

and in this case, an official elected body -

:22:27.:22:28.

never mind what the date is, and never mind the renegotiation,

:22:29.:22:32.

they would like to make clear their views right now.

:22:33.:22:40.

I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Steve Baker, co-chairman

:22:41.:22:42.

of Conservatives for Britain and a director of the Vote Leave

:22:43.:22:45.

If the Prime Minister can get an agreement that there will be a break

:22:46.:22:55.

in welfare payments for migrants the day after the referendum, isn't that

:22:56.:22:59.

a powerful thing to take to the country? It's not powerful at all.

:23:00.:23:04.

Bernard Jenkin is the Conservative director of Vote Leave, but we have

:23:05.:23:07.

been told by the OBR that it wouldn't make much difference even

:23:08.:23:10.

if the Prime Minister got this break. They would only take one case

:23:11.:23:15.

brought forward by activist lawyers, and we would expect the European

:23:16.:23:18.

Court of Justice to strike down such a measure. We think it's a red

:23:19.:23:23.

herring, and as John Redwood said, a bad joke. They have ended up trying

:23:24.:23:27.

to manufacture the appearance of success out of very little. As

:23:28.:23:31.

things stand at the moment, there's nothing the Prime Minister would

:23:32.:23:34.

bring back that would make you want to stay in? I've been clear through

:23:35.:23:38.

the whole period that most of us want to end the supremacy of the EU

:23:39.:23:43.

in the UK. Make our own laws in Parliament. The prime ministers had

:23:44.:23:46.

something similar about the European Court of Human Rights. Demanding an

:23:47.:23:52.

opt out from the charter is subbing the Prime Minister has had to give

:23:53.:23:57.

up. So money inconsistencies. The answer is no. I expect a good number

:23:58.:24:01.

of colleagues to join me and campaign to leave at this stage. How

:24:02.:24:06.

many Tory MPs will campaign for out? Of the 150 on the list who have

:24:07.:24:12.

expressed interest, and about a fifth have made up their minds, I

:24:13.:24:22.

think about 50-70. No more than 50 or 70 Tory MPs campaigning on your

:24:23.:24:25.

side of the referendum to leave? That would be my expectation at this

:24:26.:24:30.

stage. John McDonnell said he wanted to get this out of the wear it, the

:24:31.:24:35.

referendum. Didn't sound to me like Labour would join with the SNP on

:24:36.:24:38.

delaying tactics for the referendum. Would you like the referendum to be

:24:39.:24:43.

later? Realistically we are campaigning out to leave the EU and

:24:44.:24:47.

we have secured our objectives for the campaign. But there is a good

:24:48.:24:53.

case to be made that a June date would trust us. There are elections

:24:54.:25:01.

in neigh, and I think there's a good case for a delay until September. I

:25:02.:25:05.

would prefer the government brought forward a measure that went through

:25:06.:25:09.

the Commons without a row, but if Labour and the SNP and conservative

:25:10.:25:12.

colleagues wish to put something through, then we will be able to

:25:13.:25:20.

what's the biggest beach from the -- beast on the cabinet you would like

:25:21.:25:26.

to get? I haven't ruled anybody out. But I'm happy to go into the

:25:27.:25:29.

campaign without any Cabinet big beasts. It would be surprised this

:25:30.:25:35.

point if Chris Grayling didn't join us. He would count as a big beast,

:25:36.:25:41.

leader of the house. People know which Cabinet members are discussed.

:25:42.:25:53.

Theresa May? She made a speech on immigration which would be difficult

:25:54.:25:56.

to recalibrate with the EU. It's a matter for her. You've given up on

:25:57.:26:01.

Bryce Johnson? He occasionally flirts with it in the press. But

:26:02.:26:08.

he's a typical conservative, he loves Europe, he would like Europe

:26:09.:26:11.

to be different, but we'll see what he does when the comes. The

:26:12.:26:19.

different leave campaigns, it's flawed with blood, when will you

:26:20.:26:24.

stop knocking lumps out of each other? I'm not knocking lumps out of

:26:25.:26:29.

anybody and I regret this week that we've had distractions from the core

:26:30.:26:32.

aim of leaving the EU and I regret they have got their way to the

:26:33.:26:37.

press. Everybody involved needs to reach a resolution, everybody

:26:38.:26:40.

involved wants to move on and I hope we do so quickly, let's fight a

:26:41.:26:46.

winning campaign. You are not the director of Vote Leave but you are

:26:47.:26:49.

on the Parliamentary planning committee for Vote Leave, so you are

:26:50.:26:52.

associated. Did you agree with the attempts to get rid of the two

:26:53.:26:56.

full-time people running it, Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott? This

:26:57.:27:00.

is a matter for the board. Do you agree with whether they should have

:27:01.:27:05.

gone? At this stage it's very late in the day to make such a profound

:27:06.:27:09.

change. But given the severe concerns of my colleagues, it is

:27:10.:27:19.

clear there will have to be material changes in Vote Leave in order to

:27:20.:27:22.

carry parliamentarians with the campaign. What this material change

:27:23.:27:24.

mean? There has to be a greater degree of involvement with planetary

:27:25.:27:27.

and so they think they are shaping the campaign to win over those

:27:28.:27:31.

voters we need. Will there be a merger in the end? Surely that's

:27:32.:27:37.

what all of you need, you are up against the government, is huge

:27:38.:27:40.

machine, don't you need to be united? It's a David and Goliath

:27:41.:27:45.

battle and we need to be united. The process of unity will come through

:27:46.:27:50.

designation. Realistically, leave. EU is looking at the Courville,

:27:51.:27:55.

where as Vote Leave knows we need the swing vote. -- looking at the

:27:56.:28:02.

core vote. I'm confident that Vote Leave can and will win the

:28:03.:28:08.

referendum. I wouldn't give away the mop in case there is more blood to

:28:09.:28:10.

referendum. I wouldn't give away the wipe up.

:28:11.:28:12.

One of David Cameron's four key demands in his EU

:28:13.:28:15.

renegotiation concerns competitiveness.

:28:16.:28:18.

The Prime Minister says the burden of regulation on businesses is too

:28:19.:28:21.

high, and that the EU needs to strengthen the single market

:28:22.:28:23.

and accelerate trade agreements with America and China.

:28:24.:28:25.

Arguments about the economic costs or benefits of membership will form

:28:26.:28:28.

a large part of the referendum campaign, with both sides keen

:28:29.:28:31.

Those campaigning to remain within the EU say our membership

:28:32.:28:38.

is worth ?3000 to every household in Britain.

:28:39.:28:41.

It's based on a CBI claim that the UK's economy is 5% bigger

:28:42.:28:47.

They also claim that 3 million jobs are linked

:28:48.:28:54.

to trade within the EU, that 45% of UK exports of goods

:28:55.:28:57.

and services go to the EU, and that the value of

:28:58.:29:02.

trade with the EU is ?133 billion higher than it would be if we left.

:29:03.:29:08.

Those who argue we would be better off if we left claim that

:29:09.:29:16.

regulations imposed on business by the EU cost over

:29:17.:29:18.

They say the 3 million figure on jobs is

:29:19.:29:24.

dependent on trade with the EU, not membership.

:29:25.:29:26.

They argue that the trade would continue if we voted to leave,

:29:27.:29:29.

because we currently import more than we export from the EU.

:29:30.:29:32.

So its members would want free trade to remain.

:29:33.:29:35.

They further point out that the importance of UK trade

:29:36.:29:38.

They cite ONS figures showing that the proportion

:29:39.:29:46.

of UK exports heading for the EU fell from 54.8% in 1999

:29:47.:29:49.

But an analysis by the House of Commons Library in 2013

:29:50.:29:59.

of numerous studies into the economic

:30:00.:30:02.

impact of EU membership found no consensus either way,

:30:03.:30:04.

So, which side will manage to convince voters?

:30:05.:30:13.

I'm joined now by the former trade minister Digby Jones

:30:14.:30:15.

and Richard Reed, who founded Innocent Smoothies,

:30:16.:30:17.

who is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU.

:30:18.:30:20.

Welcome. Digby Jones, the EU accounts for 45% of our exports. Why

:30:21.:30:31.

would you risk any of that? That will not change. Because in the

:30:32.:30:38.

morning after any referendum result, Germany, it is pivotal on Germany,

:30:39.:30:44.

would immediately want some form of tariff free arrangement with

:30:45.:30:48.

Britain. They make a million cars they sell in Britain a year. 75 to

:30:49.:30:54.

80% of all the trains in this country are built in Dusseldorf. We

:30:55.:31:00.

do not know for sure? No. Germany does it and the others follow. There

:31:01.:31:07.

are many arguments to stay in. But the one thing we should kill now is

:31:08.:31:13.

that not one job in Britain is at risk because of EU membership. Not

:31:14.:31:19.

one. There would be a free-trade agreement because we are so

:31:20.:31:23.

important to Europe. And by the way that does not mean there are not

:31:24.:31:27.

other reasons why not -- why we might not want to be in or out. I

:31:28.:31:32.

get so frustrated when people talk about jobs at risk. It is rubbish.

:31:33.:31:38.

That is very easy thing to call total nonsense. It is clear that if

:31:39.:31:43.

your biggest market is suddenly interfered with, that it will not

:31:44.:31:47.

somehow affect trade, does not make sense. You know more than most

:31:48.:31:49.

people that businesses need certainty. What we have right now is

:31:50.:31:55.

unfettered access to the largest market in the world. The fact that

:31:56.:31:59.

we want to start playing around with this and that is good for business,

:32:00.:32:04.

it does not make sense. I do not see the added value in belonging to a

:32:05.:32:08.

club that fetters small businesses in this country every day.

:32:09.:32:23.

Would you want to have a shop that had 60 people or 500 people walk by?

:32:24.:32:52.

You can achieve that from a free-trade agreement. Which we have.

:32:53.:32:58.

You get the sales prevention team in Brussels. They are trying to say

:32:59.:33:04.

this is how you will live your life, small business in Hartlepool. And by

:33:05.:33:09.

the way, the same rules will apply to 520 million people, but we all

:33:10.:33:14.

know that southern Europe, compliance is a voluntary event. We

:33:15.:33:17.

know that the French do not obey these rules and then what happens is

:33:18.:33:20.

that we in northern Europe, we are by no means the best, Scandinavia is

:33:21.:33:24.

better than us, we will be the stuff and baseball business which does not

:33:25.:33:28.

have or be assisting in Brussels arguing the case... And you know

:33:29.:33:33.

this small businesses. Let Richard comeback. Britain loves

:33:34.:33:38.

a bit of regulation, you are quite correct. If we were to come out and

:33:39.:33:43.

UCB will still a treat, we will have to comply with the regulation

:33:44.:33:46.

because that is the conditions of the free trade, so we will not avoid

:33:47.:33:52.

the regulation. It is their father we are in or out. But if we are in,

:33:53.:33:57.

we get to have our voice heard. You tell that to all of the money men in

:33:58.:34:01.

the city that have seen Brussels hammer down with regulation. You see

:34:02.:34:07.

how bad it gets. You see how bad it gets when we are

:34:08.:34:12.

not there at the big table where the decisions get made. We are one of

:34:13.:34:18.

the three big forces in Europe. We are one of the three biggest

:34:19.:34:21.

economies in Europe. In fact... Digby Jones, it seems

:34:22.:34:29.

that you assume we will still have unfettered access to the single

:34:30.:34:34.

market. It has been pointed out by Stephen -- Mr Reid that the

:34:35.:34:40.

conditions of the single market could lead to other costs, for

:34:41.:34:44.

example the free movement of people could be a problem. It would not

:34:45.:34:48.

change things. Let us explore that because I am

:34:49.:34:51.

very concerned that this referendum will become a referendum Trulli on

:34:52.:34:55.

immigration allowed in the street. When they ought to be discussing how

:34:56.:35:03.

can European Union reform improve the life of an unemployed

:35:04.:35:07.

25-year-old in Madrid and a single mother in Athens? How can economic

:35:08.:35:10.

power and otherwise, business, how can it be seen as a driver to get

:35:11.:35:15.

the standard of living up? Have you be sure economy on exporting olives

:35:16.:35:22.

and BMWs, you will go bust. They're asking you to subsidise the growth

:35:23.:35:26.

of all those in the hope that for some reason unskilled people in

:35:27.:35:30.

southern Europe will do this. From migration, Andrew, give or get

:35:31.:35:32.

unskilled people in Europe coming to rich countries instead of getting

:35:33.:35:39.

skilled people in Europe being marketable in northern Europe and

:35:40.:35:41.

you can only pull that off with reform.

:35:42.:35:47.

But if we are not in Europe we cannot do the reform.

:35:48.:35:50.

We must not campaign to stop these people coming, we must campaign to

:35:51.:35:54.

get the skills base of Europe up so that they get wealthier and more

:35:55.:36:00.

importantly they are more marketable in our markets.

:36:01.:36:02.

The British government has enough trouble getting the skills base

:36:03.:36:05.

right in Britain never mind in southern Europe. But if we are out

:36:06.:36:11.

we do not reform. Richard, you have said that inside the club we can

:36:12.:36:16.

influence the rules. Hold on, let me put the question. The British have

:36:17.:36:20.

been on the wrong end of EU majorities on these rules more than

:36:21.:36:24.

any other country that is a member of the EU. We rarely get our way on

:36:25.:36:28.

these things. Are you joking? We have the best

:36:29.:36:34.

possible setup. We are part of the EU, we said no to the euro, we said

:36:35.:36:39.

no to Schengen, we said no to forced my greater rate targets.

:36:40.:36:46.

So why do we have so many majority votes?

:36:47.:36:50.

This is a once in a generation decision, we have to get it right.

:36:51.:36:54.

The big picture is this, it is a causal opportunity to be part of

:36:55.:36:58.

Europe and we have the best version of the deal.

:36:59.:37:02.

Richard, when you and I, years ago, I was at the CBI, we were arguing

:37:03.:37:06.

cases about should be join or not the euro. I can remember sitting in

:37:07.:37:10.

television students and been told the world would end. The sun would

:37:11.:37:19.

not rise in the morning and we would go to Armageddon and bag if we did

:37:20.:37:22.

not join the euro. We made the right decision about the

:37:23.:37:25.

euro... The world is not about to end but this interview has come to

:37:26.:37:29.

an end. Thank you both and this debate will continue. You are

:37:30.:37:33.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland to

:37:34.:37:37.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:38.:37:43.

As Labour's new leadership fights its first election,

:37:44.:37:49.

we'll ask its deputy leader about the battle to get

:37:50.:37:52.

And here is the deal, inside. I can show you.

:37:53.:38:06.

Is it possible that Labour - once the predominant force

:38:07.:38:09.

in Scottish politics - might have to rely on the regional

:38:10.:38:12.

list to get any MSPs at Holyrood after May's election?

:38:13.:38:19.

A reminder: The list was put into place in the Scottish Parliament

:38:20.:38:21.

to make it more proportional and, bluntly, to stop any one party

:38:22.:38:24.

getting an overall majority - a provision which the SNP

:38:25.:38:26.

If the polls are to be trusted, they could well do so again.

:38:27.:38:31.

A ballot of Labour members, which decides who gets

:38:32.:38:33.

onto the party's list and, crucially, who gets to the top

:38:34.:38:35.

And we'll get the results at the end of the week.

:38:36.:38:39.

They sing it with conviction. But the tide of history seems to be

:38:40.:38:43.

against them. The SNP have achieved what the polls

:38:44.:38:46.

predicted and more and hold more seats than any other party, a dream

:38:47.:38:51.

of a night for them. But it has been a disastrous nightmare for the

:38:52.:38:54.

Labour Party and the Lib Dems... Poll suggested that after losing all

:38:55.:39:01.

but one Westminster MP at the general election...

:39:02.:39:03.

We almost broke the swingometer with the result from Scotland. The Labour

:39:04.:39:06.

Party may be about to lose all of their constituency MSPs at Holyrood.

:39:07.:39:11.

We have seen that in polling for quite some time now that the

:39:12.:39:14.

Scottish Labour Party are going to be reliant upon the regional list,

:39:15.:39:17.

which is really astounding for a party which at one point in Scotland

:39:18.:39:24.

was in government at every level. So, spin that is good news then. It

:39:25.:39:29.

is not about trying to find a silver lining, it is about getting the

:39:30.:39:32.

Scottish Labour Party back on its feet and providing the electorate

:39:33.:39:38.

with a choice. The Scottish Labour Party had the belief for frankly far

:39:39.:39:41.

too long that it had a right to rule. What the electorate has very

:39:42.:39:47.

kindly demonstrated to the Scottish Labour Party is that that idea is

:39:48.:39:49.

nonsense. We have a project here and it might

:39:50.:39:54.

be that the people we elect in the month of May will be part of a

:39:55.:39:58.

2-term project, where we get new people in now and they are maybe not

:39:59.:40:03.

the finished article but it is people that the public can start to

:40:04.:40:06.

grow and feel that these are people who are standing up for us in our

:40:07.:40:14.

communities and across the region. That means seeing the Ann Sable,

:40:15.:40:18.

about seeing who is responsible. There is a lot of dead wood in the

:40:19.:40:20.

Labour Scottish Parliament. The voters are very clear. Labour has

:40:21.:40:27.

not cut the mustard and there is no point in Labour politicians docking

:40:28.:40:32.

this fact. We have had too many people historically at all levels of

:40:33.:40:42.

party representation, at council level, at Scottish Parliament and at

:40:43.:40:45.

Westminster who were simply not up to the job.

:40:46.:40:50.

The Dutch elm disease taught us there is only one thing to do with

:40:51.:40:53.

dead wood and perhaps Scottish Labour needs to learn that its new

:40:54.:40:56.

rule is making the best of opposition.

:40:57.:41:01.

What frustrates me when I watch First Minister's Questions and not

:41:02.:41:05.

many people do, you know, we have MSPs in the Parliament who do not

:41:06.:41:07.

really hold the government to account and I include SNP MSPs in

:41:08.:41:14.

that, you do not see scrutiny in the committees and often you see that in

:41:15.:41:17.

the House of Commons happen a bit better than it does here. So it is

:41:18.:41:21.

about holding the government to account but it is also about coming

:41:22.:41:25.

up with fresh ideas. So is there a grand plan behind all

:41:26.:41:30.

of this? Something to rebuild trust and turn Scottish Labour once more

:41:31.:41:35.

into a government in waiting? To the outside observer I think it

:41:36.:41:38.

is very difficult to see what that plan is. Nothing is changing,

:41:39.:41:44.

nothing is changing the polls. EC SNP dominance and have done for many

:41:45.:41:47.

months. There does not seem to be any clearer way back for the Labour

:41:48.:41:51.

Party at the moment. We's new leader and her deputy are

:41:52.:41:54.

the only two people guaranteed a place on the party's regional list.

:41:55.:41:59.

The question is, while the ballot of members deliver the fresh faces who

:42:00.:42:00.

Huw Williams there. might start

:42:01.:42:08.

Well, I'm joined now by the Deputy Leader

:42:09.:42:10.

What do you make of what Thomas Docherty was telling us? He said

:42:11.:42:19.

that quite a lot of the people he had seen represent Labour put until

:42:20.:42:23.

now have not been up to the job? I think I look at things

:42:24.:42:28.

differently. I think that Westminster politics, for example,

:42:29.:42:30.

were completely out of touch with the reality of the everyday lives of

:42:31.:42:36.

people. I think Labour paid the price for that. In all walks of

:42:37.:42:44.

government there will be different people giving different things and

:42:45.:42:46.

bringing different experience is to the Parliament. It is the same in

:42:47.:42:52.

local government. People will bring different experiences.

:42:53.:42:55.

In the last Scottish elections, you know that you got more people in

:42:56.:42:58.

that you did not expect because of the rare that it went, you got more

:42:59.:43:02.

on the list and your constituencies. Presumably there was some Deadwood.

:43:03.:43:08.

That is the long-term. Kezia Dugdale has done since becoming leader, is

:43:09.:43:12.

that we have opened up the party and part of that process has been that

:43:13.:43:16.

we have opened up this election from the lists and that is why we have

:43:17.:43:19.

gone through this process. That has resulted in a lot of new people

:43:20.:43:24.

coming forward and that should be welcomed. At the end of the day, the

:43:25.:43:27.

Labour Party itself must be in touch with the communities it seeks to

:43:28.:43:30.

serve, it must be able to demonstrate that it knows what the

:43:31.:43:34.

big priorities are, so it needs to have the policies, and needs to be

:43:35.:43:40.

clear what it stands for. I think we lost all of that in the last eight

:43:41.:43:44.

years, perhaps longer and we paid the price for that.

:43:45.:43:50.

You lost any sense of the relatively of...

:43:51.:43:54.

The sense of direction, actually what it was that Labour stood for.

:43:55.:43:59.

So we have to restate that and set out what our vision is. We have to

:44:00.:44:03.

set out our policies in terms of delivering that vision. If you look

:44:04.:44:07.

at the reality of everyday life, in my constituency there are major

:44:08.:44:11.

issues, people are struggling to get GP appointments, people are

:44:12.:44:15.

struggling to get through A, struggling to get housing, the

:44:16.:44:19.

basics in life. Their budgets and schools are being cut, these are the

:44:20.:44:23.

everyday issues that people are dealing with.

:44:24.:44:26.

I remember Kezia Dugdale telling us she wanted to see new faces in the

:44:27.:44:30.

Scottish Parliament, people who have perhaps not even been in the Labour

:44:31.:44:33.

Party at the time of the last election. Given the

:44:34.:44:44.

number of people you have fighting to get onto these top list places,

:44:45.:44:48.

realistically, will be see any of these new faces?

:44:49.:44:50.

Two points. The first one Kezia made was that you will not change this

:44:51.:44:52.

overnight. It will take time. We are here for the long haul. She is in it

:44:53.:44:55.

for the long haul. But will we see these new faces in

:44:56.:44:58.

this election? Many have come forward.

:44:59.:45:04.

But will we see any of them at the top? Would you like to see them?

:45:05.:45:09.

I think there will be new faces but they are in the hands of our

:45:10.:45:14.

membership. Would you like new members in?

:45:15.:45:18.

Yes, but at least hustings meetings there have been new faces and

:45:19.:45:20.

experience. But would you like people to vote?

:45:21.:45:25.

Are you telling us you would like people to vote for not Mrs Ali

:45:26.:45:29.

people who were not in the Labour Party but not Mrs Ali... You would

:45:30.:45:33.

like people not to vote for the current plot in Parliament?

:45:34.:45:37.

I would like for people to listen to what is being said and vote for them

:45:38.:45:42.

accordingly. Every Labour Party member has evoked. If you look back

:45:43.:45:47.

to fifth, for example in 2012, new people came and that had not been in

:45:48.:45:53.

longer than a matter of weeks. From the outside it appears that

:45:54.:45:58.

there is this massive scramble going on by existing politicians because

:45:59.:46:01.

you know you will lose constituency seats and they want the list. You,

:46:02.:46:05.

yourself, you said when you were standing for the get good leadership

:46:06.:46:09.

that you would not take up the right to be at the top of the list and yet

:46:10.:46:14.

here you are at the top of the list, why did you do that?

:46:15.:46:17.

We are going to fight for every vote but we are being realistic. We know

:46:18.:46:21.

where the polls are at. Our job between now and the election is to

:46:22.:46:25.

set out a progressive agenda and demonstrate because I was not good

:46:26.:46:28.

to spend the most of the last few months trying to fight for a list

:46:29.:46:36.

seat when I needed to be doing my job as Deputy Leader and that is why

:46:37.:46:39.

I changed my light -- changed my mind.

:46:40.:46:41.

The implication is that you have no confidence in yourself to win your

:46:42.:46:43.

constituency. I am fighting hard to win my

:46:44.:46:47.

constituency as we are across Scotland. Realistically we know

:46:48.:46:51.

where the polls are, we know that there is a mountain to climb but we

:46:52.:46:55.

are confident that if we can setup a much clearer vision for the Labour

:46:56.:46:59.

Party in Scotland and set out a vision for the future of Scotland...

:47:00.:47:02.

Labour is the only party in Scotland are doing for change, we are arguing

:47:03.:47:07.

for change in the way that we do the powers that we have and how we will

:47:08.:47:09.

use the powers that are coming to the Scottish

:47:10.:47:26.

Parliament. You clearly don't think you are

:47:27.:47:29.

going to win your own seat. Not true. Why are you on the top of the

:47:30.:47:32.

regional list? Realistic discord for we are going to lose? We know that

:47:33.:47:35.

it would be difficult to hold onto first past the post seats. We have

:47:36.:47:37.

to set out our agenda and policies and we will work hard for every

:47:38.:47:40.

vote. We will give people a reason to vote for the Labour Party and to

:47:41.:47:44.

trust us once again. That is our objective. Lastly, you

:47:45.:47:47.

talk about new Labour and a new image. The only thing you have, with

:47:48.:47:52.

recently or the main thing, is a plan to give money to first-time

:47:53.:48:00.

buyers, this is money that was previously hypothecated to help

:48:01.:48:01.

people who were suffering from the cuts to the working benefits. Is

:48:02.:48:09.

that a policy you are enthused about?

:48:10.:48:11.

We seek to build 45,000 council houses. That is significant.

:48:12.:48:18.

Hand-outs to first-time buyers? We have a housing crisis in

:48:19.:48:21.

Scotland. We have made it clear we want are injured the living wage

:48:22.:48:25.

across the social sector. For all those people working in home care on

:48:26.:48:32.

the minimum wage, the living wage, believe me, will make a difference.

:48:33.:48:36.

We have been clear that we must invest in jobs.

:48:37.:48:39.

Do you agree with the first-time buyer policy?

:48:40.:48:43.

That will give people the opportunity. Yes, I do agree with

:48:44.:48:50.

that. But moreover I agree with balding 45,000 council houses in

:48:51.:48:52.

Scotland that are desperately needed.

:48:53.:48:55.

Alex Rowley, we will have to be put there. Thank you for coming in.

:48:56.:48:57.

David Cameron's efforts to redraw the UK's relationship

:48:58.:48:59.

He's hosting the president of the European Council,

:49:00.:49:02.

And he does so in the week that the former prime minister,

:49:03.:49:06.

Tony Blair, predicted that if the UK votes to leave the EU,

:49:07.:49:09.

A senior EU commissioner has told the Sunday Politics that Scotland

:49:10.:49:12.

should not have to choose between membership of the UK

:49:13.:49:14.

Our political correspondent, Glenn Campbell, is just back

:49:15.:49:17.

Version when David Cameron has been to Brussels, bringing home a box of

:49:18.:49:29.

Belgium chocolates is not nearly enough. He wants new terms for UK

:49:30.:49:37.

membership of the EU and after this week's talks with the European

:49:38.:49:41.

Commission President a deal seems closer. There is a proposal on the

:49:42.:49:45.

table. It is not good enough and it needs more work but we are making

:49:46.:49:51.

progress. No bargain will satisfy Nigel Farage. He wants the UK out of

:49:52.:49:58.

the EU. An independent United Kingdom that makes its own laws, but

:49:59.:50:05.

takes back a fishing limit in Scotland that would bring thousands

:50:06.:50:10.

of jobs. This is a UK wide opportunity to become an

:50:11.:50:14.

independent, sovereign nation again. At the European Commission, top

:50:15.:50:19.

officials warned the UK against self exclusion. You will lose more than

:50:20.:50:27.

you gain. I think it would be best if he concentrates to make sure the

:50:28.:50:34.

UK, a ball of the member of the family, stays in the family. Which

:50:35.:50:39.

may defer questions about Scotland's future. We make every effort for the

:50:40.:50:44.

Scottish people not to have to face a choice between Britain and the EU.

:50:45.:50:52.

That is not a choice that you would like to face. She was speaking after

:50:53.:51:03.

Tony Blair told French radio that if the UK votes to leave Europe

:51:04.:51:13.

Scotland will go to leave the UK. Tony Blair finds himself in a

:51:14.:51:20.

curious agreement with the First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, who has

:51:21.:51:24.

argued that if the UK was to vote to leave and Scotland voted to stay in,

:51:25.:51:29.

then the clamour for another referendum on Scottish independence

:51:30.:51:36.

may be unstoppable. I think this is another scare tactic. If we vote to

:51:37.:51:40.

leave the EU, the United Kingdom will break up and we will all live

:51:41.:51:45.

in poverty. We have heard this before and it will not work. If

:51:46.:51:50.

David Cameron's next get-together with other EU leaders instead they

:51:51.:51:55.

result in a deal he could call the EU vote as early as June. This

:51:56.:52:03.

former Belgian Prime Minister is watching our debate closely. He

:52:04.:52:09.

wants the UK vote sooner rather than later, but he is worried that the

:52:10.:52:13.

momentum may be with the campaign to leave. At the moment the campaign

:52:14.:52:22.

around Britain is about leaving the EU, it is saying the European Union

:52:23.:52:26.

does not work very well and we have a number of requests and if they are

:52:27.:52:31.

not fulfilled then we are going to vote no. My only fear is that it has

:52:32.:52:37.

become a self-fulfilling prophecy. David Cameron hopes to argue for the

:52:38.:52:45.

UK to remain in a reformed EU if he can get the turns. He continues the

:52:46.:52:50.

negotiation today with Donald past who acts as a go-between with other

:52:51.:52:52.

EU leaders. -- Donald Tusk. A little earlier I spoke

:52:53.:52:56.

to the Conservative MEP David Campbell Bannerman, who's

:52:57.:52:58.

co-chairman of the Conservatives I began by asking him

:52:59.:53:00.

what he thought of David Cameron's efforts to secure a temporary ban

:53:01.:53:04.

on the payment of in-work benefits I think the emergency brake proposal

:53:05.:53:18.

is complete nonsense. We would have to prove to the EU that our public

:53:19.:53:24.

services were in crisis, GPs and hospitals and schools, and if we're

:53:25.:53:28.

lucky they would then hold a vote on it and we would need a majority.

:53:29.:53:33.

That is not control of your own country that is handing it to

:53:34.:53:37.

Europe. If David Cameron is going to say this is not good enough and he

:53:38.:53:41.

once more, you sound as if you do not have much faith in that. The

:53:42.:53:48.

renegotiation process has turned into a sham. It is very trivial. The

:53:49.:53:52.

renegotiation process has turned British people want control back of

:53:53.:53:59.

their borders particularly, economic control, democratic control, and

:54:00.:54:02.

this is not satisfying that need and I think they will vote to leave. You

:54:03.:54:08.

describe it as a sham. Perhaps a polite word would be theatre. Are

:54:09.:54:14.

you expecting more of this? I hope I'm not being too cynical, but one

:54:15.:54:19.

would expect that due to refusals on either side, there may not be a deal

:54:20.:54:25.

until 4am in the morning. Harold Wilson went through a similar

:54:26.:54:31.

exercise that fooled the British people in 1975. It was only the

:54:32.:54:34.

Highlands, Ireland and Scotland that voted not to join the UC. I think

:54:35.:54:41.

parts of Scotland are very Eurosceptic. -- join the EU. You're

:54:42.:54:49.

seeing Jim Sillars coming out. The SNP were in favour of leaving the EU

:54:50.:54:56.

before 1992. The polls up here sure there is a substantial majority for

:54:57.:55:00.

staying in the EU. I accept that what we have not had a proper debate

:55:01.:55:05.

yet. We need to see what this package brings out of Brussels. I am

:55:06.:55:10.

not confident. We wanted to see fundamental change and this is not

:55:11.:55:14.

fundamental change, but I think this will be closer than people think. As

:55:15.:55:20.

we know in Scotland, the General Election polls often do not give the

:55:21.:55:26.

right cancer. One of the criticisms is that people like you will never

:55:27.:55:30.

change your mind, it does matter what David Cameron. -- do not give

:55:31.:55:34.

the right cancer. -- cancer. Scotland is the second-largest

:55:35.:55:53.

contributor to the EU. But my point stands. It does not matter what

:55:54.:55:56.

David Cameron does, you will always say it is not good enough. We were

:55:57.:56:03.

looking at fundamental change and this is not fundamental change. If

:56:04.:56:07.

you offer that to the British people they might vote to stay end. The

:56:08.:56:12.

only change we are going to get as if we leave the EU. It sounds

:56:13.:56:18.

dramatic, but we are not. -- it is not. We would get an excellent deal.

:56:19.:56:27.

You consider yourself a conservative and a unionist. If there is a Safari

:56:28.:56:36.

no -- if there is a scenario where Scotland votes to stay in the EU and

:56:37.:56:40.

the rest of the UK votes to leave, that might lead to another

:56:41.:56:43.

referendum and the break-up of the United Kingdom. It is totally

:56:44.:56:50.

illogical. If the UK leads the EU and in Scotland votes to stay

:56:51.:56:54.

outside of both the EU and the UK for years. The British Prime

:56:55.:56:59.

Minister said there is a long queue to join the EU. There is Serbia,

:57:00.:57:06.

Turkey, Albania, Scotland will be behind them. I think it would be a

:57:07.:57:13.

disaster for them. That is an argument, but the least one can say

:57:14.:57:17.

is that if this scenario comes to pass it will make the United Kingdom

:57:18.:57:21.

is less stable than it is at the moment. I think it will be more

:57:22.:57:27.

stable because I think Scotland will be less able and willing to break

:57:28.:57:33.

away. We could devolve powers now held by the EU back to Scotland,

:57:34.:57:46.

fishing, farming, parts of trade, tourism, energy and the environment,

:57:47.:57:51.

a lot of these powers are with the EU and not Westminster. I think the

:57:52.:57:55.

Scottish people will feel more independent if we left the EU. Thank

:57:56.:57:58.

you. And I'm joined now from Edinburgh

:57:59.:58:01.

by the SNP's Europe spokesperson, What about that last point? Is it

:58:02.:58:14.

slightly odd for a national list to be in favour of staying in the EU?

:58:15.:58:19.

Alec Salmond always made a big thing about being critical of the fishing

:58:20.:58:24.

policy and wanting power is repatriated to Scotland. This is

:58:25.:58:29.

your big chance. He has missed the point little bit on the European

:58:30.:58:32.

Union because it is the member state that govern what goes on in the

:58:33.:58:39.

European Union. The European Union could never force Scotland to take

:58:40.:58:49.

Trident nuclear missiles. He is giving the example of fisheries.

:58:50.:58:54.

That is one of the pillars of the European Union. You cannot be a

:58:55.:58:57.

member of the European Union unless you accept the common fisheries

:58:58.:59:02.

policy. David Cameron ruled out treaty change quite early on and

:59:03.:59:07.

that is something we might of needed for the fisheries policy. Something

:59:08.:59:10.

that we will agree on is that this has been a huge missed opportunity

:59:11.:59:14.

by the Prime Minister to get some real change. No one says that the EU

:59:15.:59:18.

does not need reformed, we would like to see fisheries and public

:59:19.:59:23.

health back in Scotland, but he has not taken that opportunity to take

:59:24.:59:29.

them back. Well vote no and have them back. No, because overall it is

:59:30.:59:33.

better to be in the European Union. It is good for jobs in the economy

:59:34.:59:38.

and climate change and security. Your message to fishermen you might

:59:39.:59:49.

see benefits of repatriated policy to Scotland but in the bigger

:59:50.:59:55.

picture it does not matter. We would like to be in there trying to reform

:59:56.:00:01.

it. For example, the Conservatives and others who want to leave often

:00:02.:00:04.

hauled up the example of Norway. Norway is in a position where it has

:00:05.:00:12.

no say in the European Union but has to adhere to its rules. The oil and

:00:13.:00:16.

gas industry in Norway were talking about that recently. I think the

:00:17.:00:21.

idea that you leave the European Union and is not the case. Norway

:00:22.:00:28.

does not have to adhere to the common fisheries policy. It does

:00:29.:00:34.

have to adhere to other issues. Its politicians often complain about

:00:35.:00:38.

that. If David Cameron had been serious about fisheries and other

:00:39.:00:43.

issues he would have taken it to the negotiation table but he did not

:00:44.:00:47.

bother. So your opportunity to get these powers back is to vote no.

:00:48.:00:52.

Overall we think it is better to be part of the European Union with the

:00:53.:00:56.

economic benefits it brings and the jobs that it brings. It benefits

:00:57.:01:00.

small and big business and it is overall better to be part of the

:01:01.:01:03.

European Union. In Scotland votes yes and the rest of the UK votes no,

:01:04.:01:10.

as Tony Blair discussed this week, do you think you would have

:01:11.:01:12.

legitimacy Collin for another independence referendum. I think so.

:01:13.:01:18.

I put down amendments that were backed by my colleagues to avoid the

:01:19.:01:22.

situation. We pit down amendments that meant that England, Scotland,

:01:23.:01:27.

Northern Ireland and Wales would have to vote to leave the European

:01:28.:01:32.

Union for the vote to be valid, but they were rejected. We might see a

:01:33.:01:37.

breakdown in what is meant to be a partnership of equals but we did put

:01:38.:01:40.

down amendments that would have darker David Cameron out of this

:01:41.:01:47.

hole. The SNP policy is that you should be campaigning to vote yes in

:01:48.:01:50.

Scotland and hoping desperately that people in England vote no. No, we

:01:51.:01:56.

want to stay in the European Union and we are campaigning to vote yes.

:01:57.:02:06.

It was more important than fisheries a moment ago. I put only amendments

:02:07.:02:12.

to make sure that Scotland could not be taken out the European Union

:02:13.:02:16.

against its Wales. We pit down those amendments and they were rejected.

:02:17.:02:21.

It is said picking that they were rejected. In Scotland is taken out

:02:22.:02:27.

of the European Union against its will, a breakdown in the

:02:28.:02:33.

relationship of equals. Thank you for joining us this morning.

:02:34.:02:35.

Liz Lochhead has been Scotland's national poet -

:02:36.:02:36.

As her time in the role draws to a close today,

:02:37.:02:41.

she came to the studio to reflect on her time in the role.

:02:42.:02:44.

I began by asking her if she had enjoyed the role.

:02:45.:02:49.

Being the Makar? Absolutely, it has been fantastic. It has been

:02:50.:02:56.

wonderful. I have had a bit of prominence when I'm fading away. You

:02:57.:03:03.

get after do a lot of things. There have been less gigs turning up as

:03:04.:03:09.

you hit your 60s. It is just the people that used to invite you along

:03:10.:03:17.

to the arts centres are now dead. Some people who have been Paul

:03:18.:03:23.

Lawrie at think it is constraining. Did you expect to turn up in write

:03:24.:03:27.

an ode to the fiscal framework? It was not like that at all. I was

:03:28.:03:32.

asked to do poems on particular subjects and sometimes I wrote

:03:33.:03:36.

things that I would not have written otherwise. I wrote up or you I like

:03:37.:03:43.

about encouraging people to join the children's panel. It was social

:03:44.:03:49.

things. I did a poorly for the opening of the last Parliament and

:03:50.:03:52.

it wasn't the best one I have ever written. I responded to what Edwin

:03:53.:03:59.

Morgan did for the opening of the Parliament building. It has been

:04:00.:04:04.

fantastic and it is nice to be invited to do things. I could not

:04:05.:04:10.

always do it, I could not always right a poor young, but I could

:04:11.:04:14.

often find a poor young that the suitable from the Scottish or world

:04:15.:04:23.

canon of poetry. I don't believe you when you say you

:04:24.:04:30.

are fading. I will not be the national poet of Scotland any more,

:04:31.:04:33.

someone else will have that honour and able do it in a different way

:04:34.:04:39.

than I did. Edwin Morgan was the first Makar and it was a lifetime

:04:40.:04:48.

award to him in his early 80s and it was a recognition of what he had

:04:49.:04:53.

done. When he died they thought it would be a good idea to appoint

:04:54.:04:57.

someone every five years. Someone might do a major piece of work and

:04:58.:05:01.

do less public stuff than I have done. It is very open. The job is to

:05:02.:05:08.

promote poetry and life in Scotland and that is a great thing to do.

:05:09.:05:16.

They can ask you, the independence referendum, there was lots of talk

:05:17.:05:21.

about how terribly important it was artistically. It was.

:05:22.:05:29.

Then what we? As Scotland's culture suffered from a No vote?

:05:30.:05:35.

Not because of that but before the referendum people where expressing.

:05:36.:05:38.

You know, a lot of people in the arts where yes voters and I was

:05:39.:05:42.

myself, that was not a secret, I was allowed to have my own opinions. I

:05:43.:05:47.

was not desperately disappointed by the No vote because I had not

:05:48.:05:52.

expected independence at this time. I was not asking some much about

:05:53.:05:56.

that, but more the idea that this whole debate about independence.

:05:57.:06:00.

What about it? People in the artistic world arguing

:06:01.:06:04.

that independence would be liberating for the arts?

:06:05.:06:09.

I think it might have been but also not getting independence is also

:06:10.:06:13.

liberating for the arts because that makes people decide to talk about

:06:14.:06:17.

what is happening. I do not think it was important in that kind of way. I

:06:18.:06:23.

do not think being the portal Laureate for Scotland is important

:06:24.:06:31.

in that party way. The Poet Laureate gives reference to what people say

:06:32.:06:35.

and how important it is and tells people to listen to what is being

:06:36.:06:38.

said and judge how important it is. I was called to finish regarding

:06:39.:06:44.

that. And your considered view, is poetry as important as it has been

:06:45.:06:50.

in the past in Scotland, more important, less important, are you

:06:51.:06:53.

optimistic? Of course. I have worked with young

:06:54.:07:01.

rappers which is also poetry. Poetry is a basic fundamental human rights

:07:02.:07:05.

of people, that is why we do not rhymes with children and that is why

:07:06.:07:10.

the balance, the great ballads tell us stories from the past. It is a

:07:11.:07:15.

basic human instinct like song or dance and for some reason, most

:07:16.:07:22.

countries seem to point a poet to be a poet. I think there should be a

:07:23.:07:27.

dancer in residence or the national dance of Scotland and the national

:07:28.:07:30.

singer of Scotland as well but there is a national and I was very proud

:07:31.:07:37.

to fulfil that role. As best I could, very imperfectly,

:07:38.:07:39.

but as best as I could for five years. Liz Lochhead, we'd better let

:07:40.:07:43.

you get back to your wrapping. Yes! Thank you, Gordon.

:07:44.:07:49.

I'm joined by the Sunday Herald's investigations editor,

:07:50.:08:03.

Paul Hutcheon, and by Paul Sinclair, who's a former advisor

:08:04.:08:05.

What do you think about the state of the Labour Party?

:08:06.:08:15.

It is in a very difficult situation heading up to this election. Earlier

:08:16.:08:19.

in the programme I saw Thomas Docherty talking about the dead wood

:08:20.:08:22.

in the Scottish Labour Party, I think he has a point, there is some

:08:23.:08:28.

dead wood but the difficulty is not replace it with dead wood that got

:08:29.:08:31.

cut off in Westminster. What will be interesting when we see these

:08:32.:08:34.

results of the list elections is how many new people get through.

:08:35.:08:40.

Alex Rowley seemed to believe and claimed that there would be new

:08:41.:08:45.

people but then he said it is up to the members to vote on it. Kezia

:08:46.:08:49.

Dugdale spoke about the sort of phenomenon we have heard from the

:08:50.:08:53.

SNP, people that have hardly been in the Labour Party for any period of

:08:54.:08:57.

time and it has been a surge in membership because of Jeremy Corbyn,

:08:58.:09:01.

will be CNE of them? I understand that Daniel Johnson, a

:09:02.:09:05.

new figure, is doing well and might come top. At the same time, if we're

:09:06.:09:12.

going to have a list that means that Scottish Parliament will be blessed

:09:13.:09:15.

with the bit Oracle skills of David Kelly again, I do not think that is

:09:16.:09:18.

something that will appeal to the Scottish public and that is

:09:19.:09:21.

something that the Labour Party needs to do.

:09:22.:09:26.

I think it is difficult for Kezia Dugdale to make any significant

:09:27.:09:30.

changes to our group driven that there is a declining vote share. --

:09:31.:09:35.

given that. She made a mistake allowing all existing MSPs to stand

:09:36.:09:39.

on the list. Compare that to what Ruth Davidson did, some of her

:09:40.:09:44.

allies tapped her MSPs on the shoulder and said thank you for your

:09:45.:09:48.

service but you will not stand again. I think if Kezia Dugdale and

:09:49.:09:51.

been more brutal, there would be more fresh talent in the group but I

:09:52.:09:57.

think... You referred to some personalities

:09:58.:10:00.

there and it is up to the members to decide who they want but there is

:10:01.:10:04.

all this talk about and we heard from Alex Rowley, new beginnings and

:10:05.:10:09.

being completely different, he said that in the past Labour had not paid

:10:10.:10:13.

attention to the working lives of ordinary people. Where is this New

:10:14.:10:18.

Labour Party and what is it? What it doesn't have, it is the same

:10:19.:10:22.

problem that Ed Miliband had in the general election, there is not a

:10:23.:10:25.

simple story for people to understand what is Labour Party

:10:26.:10:29.

Scotland would look like. Very good party initiatives and they are both

:10:30.:10:33.

well but nothing compelling to people here. I hear what Paul

:10:34.:10:37.

Sinclair says about Kezia Dugdale and not being able to open up the

:10:38.:10:40.

lists, but the problem is the Labour Party is incredibly difficult to

:10:41.:10:44.

manage and one of the difficulties is, if one of the other candidates

:10:45.:10:48.

had won the UK readership, I think Kezia Dugdale would have been given

:10:49.:10:52.

more space to change the party the way that she wanted to.

:10:53.:10:55.

Unfortunately with Jeremy Corbyn she cannot do that and that is the

:10:56.:10:58.

difficulty and I think the Labour Party needs to get through this

:10:59.:11:01.

election and then be serious about reform and reform its system.

:11:02.:11:10.

Paul Hutcheon, there is no clarity that the image of Scottish Labour is

:11:11.:11:17.

the same as that of Jeremy Corbyn's? Yes, there is a mismatch, for the

:11:18.:11:21.

problem is that the Labour Party has, as they did have sensible and

:11:22.:11:24.

moderate leadership they could possibly put AB back but bear it is

:11:25.:11:30.

entirely different. If Scottish Labour was led by Barack Obama and a

:11:31.:11:34.

campaign run by Bill Clinton I think they would still have the same

:11:35.:11:37.

result in the month of May which is about 20% of the vote and 25 MSPs. I

:11:38.:11:42.

do not think there is anything she can do in this short space of time.

:11:43.:11:49.

Why not? When Labour were last in power in Scotland, there was a focus

:11:50.:11:53.

on bread and butter issues like health and education. The

:11:54.:11:55.

post-referendum legacy is that there is a correlation between how you

:11:56.:12:00.

voted in the referendum and how he vote in elections. I think Labour

:12:01.:12:05.

have been left behind on that. To use a football analogy, they are

:12:06.:12:07.

playing away from home and struggling to make up ground.

:12:08.:12:12.

There is a fundamental problem for Labour and that is if you have had

:12:13.:12:18.

18 years of Tory rule, why did people not vote SNP? It was

:12:19.:12:21.

essential because the Labour Party at that point was a nationalist

:12:22.:12:25.

party, it stood up for Scotland and it was about Scotland versus

:12:26.:12:29.

Westminster and people voted for it and liked it but nobody has started

:12:30.:12:33.

to vote for the nationals party because it is the real thing. Labour

:12:34.:12:38.

have to come out with a different story, it has to come out with

:12:39.:12:41.

something new and at the moment they're thinking is not present.

:12:42.:12:51.

Europe, Paul Hutcheon. Briefly. Can the know people are pure make a go

:12:52.:12:54.

of it? I do not think so, the problem they

:12:55.:12:59.

face is leadership. If you look at the yes Lock, we have four party

:13:00.:13:03.

leaders but who is going to beat the No vote? Ukip will not provide any

:13:04.:13:08.

good leadership and I think there is also this cross-party group of

:13:09.:13:13.

politicians who do not agree on anything.

:13:14.:13:17.

What about the UK, do you think they are in with a chance?

:13:18.:13:21.

The big difficulty is that for those who want the UK to remain in Europe,

:13:22.:13:25.

it is now being framed on what to deal David Cameron gets out of the

:13:26.:13:30.

EU, that is a huge mistake. Whatever TV gets, even if it is meaningful,

:13:31.:13:35.

will not be enough for the No vote people. The campaign must be framed

:13:36.:13:37.

on the principle of being part of the EU and I am frightened that it

:13:38.:13:42.

is not being framed like that. -- whatever deal he gets.

:13:43.:13:46.

So you think there is a chance they could win?

:13:47.:13:49.

I think there is a chance. Thank you for both joining us.

:13:50.:13:50.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:51.:13:55.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by shadow chancellor John McDonnell, Steve Baker, Lord Digby Jones and businessman Richard Reed. Janan Ganesh, Polly Toynbee and Nick Watt are on the political panel.


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