31/01/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by shadow chancellor John McDonnell, Steve Baker, Lord Digby Jones and businessman Richard Reed.

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George Osborne called it a "major success".


Google say they're paying what's due, but Shadow Chancellor John


We'll ask him how he'd get big business to pay more tax.


David Cameron says he wants an emergency brake on access


to welfare benefits for EU migrants to be applied immediately


But will that be enough for the PM to clinch a deal and head


And will it be best for business if we stay in or we get out?


We'll examine the claim and counter claim and bring the two sides


And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:


As Labour's new leadership fights its first election,


its prospective candidates are battling to get


And taking time out from their protracted negotiations


with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over how much tax


they should pay on their enormous fees - the best and the brightest


political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee


and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.


First this morning, George Osborne hailed Google's back tax bill


Since then the settlement's been condemned as too lenient by -


among others - Boris Johnson, The Sun, Rupert Murdoch


and the Labour Party, which has accused the Chancellor


of offering the internet giant "mates' rates".


In a moment, I'll be talking to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.


First here's Google executive, Peter Barron, defending the company


on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.


What I would say is that in the UK we pay corporation tax at 20%.


It's absolutely the same corporation tax rate as everybody else,


Yes, but you keep coming back to this point about sales.


We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the activities,


the economic activities of Google UK.


So, we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%,


and, actually, globally, our effective tax rate over the last


five years or so is round about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate,


And I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor,


Welcome. What single step would you take to make sure that companies


like Google, Apple, Amazon, pay a fair and appropriate level of tax?


Openness and transparency. I want the information about how this deal


has been arrived at and I want them to publish in the future there tax


records. So that we can have openness and transparency, see what


is fair. The Chancellor said this was a major success. But we cannot


tell because we have not got the information. Would you extend that


to British major companies publishing their tax? Six out of ten


of the UK's biggest companies are not paying any corporation tax. Yes,


I would. The suggestion has been put forward about the FTSE 100. That is


a good idea. There would be no commercial disadvantage. Do you


think that transparency would be a major step forward? It is one step


forward. We want country by country reporting as well. I supported


George Osborne on as negotiations in Europe with that. We're not going to


get enough. I found quite angry making this morning that we have


allegation -- allegations that their Conservatives were voting their MEPs


to vote against this. I find that frustrating. I want HMRC to be


properly resourced so they can do the job. There are too many job


cuts. We have lost too much expertise. There is time now to


start thinking about how we review our tax system. The Treasury select


committee has undertaken a review. Corporation tax is levied on


profits. Even if you got your transparency, you would quickly find


that the concept of profits that can be moved around geographically, they


can be manipulated depending on costs, would you consider replacing


corporation tax with, for example, a tax on corporate sales? Revenues are


less malleable than profits. That is one of the issues to be addressed.


Nigel Lawson has done an article to that effect. One of the most


important things is to secure international agreement. We cannot


have the situation where companies are shopping around the world to


find the lowest tax regime and inventing company structures to


enable that to happen. But if you had a tax on the revenues, it would


not happen what they moved around. Revenues are revenues. You would


levy a tax on the revenues in the UK. That is why it is worth looking


at. It might be a combination of that and economic activity as well.


One professor said if you raise corporate taxes too high, companies


may move to island macro or elsewhere. Do you accept there has


to be a limit? There has to be a limit, there has to be some


reasonableness. If we can get international cooperation, you can


avoid this development of virtual tax havens taking place. Would you


want a common rate of corporation tax? Not necessarily. You would like


to make sure that what you charge is reasonable and fair and you would


expect those companies to abide by that. I listened to the Google


representative this morning. The reputational damage to Google is


immense. The savings they have made in taxes not worth the reputational


damage. Let's move on to the other big issue, Europe. And membership.


How did you vote in the 1975 referendum? Against. In the 1983


Labour manifesto it claimed that a commitment to radical socialist


policies was incompatible with membership of the European Union. It


proposed withdrawal. Did you agree with that at the time? I did at the


time. That is long gone. We're within Europe. We are working within


Europe with other parties to see how we can make Europe fair,


particularly with regard to the rights of workers. Take this tax


issue. We need to be in Europe to ensure we can secure fair agreement


on tax. That is why, by remaining within, we have got to remain within


with their own reform agenda, that is one of the issues we need to


reform. To take that phrase radical socialist policies, you are


committed to radical socialist policies. How is that now compatible


with remaining in the EU when it was not in 1983? Because we have


demonstrated with the work we have undertaken within the EU that we


have secured some benefits. Employment rights. In addition,


there are real opportunities now where we can work with others to


secure that radical change. Withdrawal from Europe at the moment


would not be beneficial. It would lose jobs. It would undermine the


benefits we have gained in terms of employment. That is why we want to


work to reform it. The issue that I have got with the Prime Minister, we


will see what he comes back with... On the social Europe issue, you want


a more social Europe. In France you have got a socialist government that


has moved to the right. In Germany, a centre-right government. Other


countries have a centre-right government. Other


in power or the hard right at the top of the polls. Where is your


social Europe in that? That is why we will work with socialist and


social Democrats. I think you will see in the coming years that a wider


debate is taking place. In some way the referendum debate will enable us


to then look at those ideas. Wouldn't it be fair to say that like


Jeremy Corbyn, you are pretty lukewarm about our membership of the


European Union? I signed up to remain within the EU. That does not


mean to say that we accepted as a perfect institution. We want to see


reform. I come back to the tax issue. Unless we get international


cooperation, particularly across Europe, we will not solve this


problem. You have got a Eurosceptic track record. Kate Hoey, a leader --


leading Labour Eurosceptic, she said that you and Jeremy Corbyn


consistently voted with Eurosceptic MPs on the EU. That is true, isn't


it? On a number of issues, because we were frustrated with the slow


pace of reform. That does not mean we are in favour of coming out. It


is better to argue from within to secure a commonality of agreement.


Do you broadly support the changes that David Cameron is trying to


renegotiate? I don't know what they are yet. Let's see what he comes


back with. My fear is if he does not treat this issue seriously and it is


just about party management, he could blow it. We could be outside


of Europe and have the economic penalties as a result. Even if he


comes back with something you do not regard as satisfactory, you will


campaign to stay in? We will campaign for our own agenda. The


government wants to get this done by the end of June. Will you cooperate


with that timetable? We will see what he comes back with. Let's have


it as soon as possible. We want the debate to take place. Delaying it


would not help. We want the debate to start now. It would be better for


him to come back fairly soon. Get the debate going. Even if the


campaign overlaps with important elections in Scotland, England,


Northern Ireland, Wales? That is the problem but it will overlap with


something. Immigration is good to be a huge issue. The IMF says that


almost 4 million immigrants will arrive in the EU between 2015 and


2017. Almost 4 million. Should Britain take a fair share of that? I


think is important we cooperate with our European partners to make that


we can accommodate those that need to come to this country. In


addition, that we have systems in place that protect wages, so that


immigration is not used to undermine wages. But should we take a fair


share of the 4 million? I think we should. We should cooperate with


others and carry the burden. The majority of Britons want us to rise


to it and ensure we assist others and that others are not suffering,


and that we do not stand on one side when people suffer. Could you give


an indication of how many? Young not at this stage. That would be a


matter to negotiate with our European partners. Should we


volunteered to be part of the EU quotas system? Mrs Merkel and others


want 160,000 to be relocated through Schengen. Should we be part of


Schengen? Should we be part of the 160,000? We should be doing more in


terms of assisting refugees coming from Syria. We should be doing more


to help those in desperate need. People are drowning in the


Mediterranean. We cannot stand aside. This country has a history of


receiving refugees. People watching this would want some sort of idea of


numbers because numbers are important. It is important. That is


why we need to get into these negotiations quickly and come back


with practical proposals. In 2013 you told a gathering of the people's


assembly at a rally on immigration that they should be open borders? I


was arguing then... There was re-search looking at the long-term


structure of the globe. Inevitably in this century we will have open


borders. The movement of peoples across the globe will mean that


borders will almost become irrelevant by the end of the


century. We should be preparing for that and explaining why people move.


Conflicts, poverty and destitution, and also climate change. In our


policy-making we should be working now to see how we address that. It


will mean that we need to look at how we resolve conflicts, how we


make the world more equal and also how we tackle climate change. In


that way we can deal with the reality of the world, which means


that people are not forced to move but there will be movement. Total


open borders? At the end of this century that is what will occur.


People are ignoring borders already as they fly from Syria. We should be


making sure that if there is no forced movement, we look at the push


and pull factors. Conflict prevention, the tackling of


inequality and policies that tackle climate change. In that way we can


cope with the global pressures with regard to population movement. To do


that, for a Labour government to prepare for that, would be loosening


controls as you move towards that? No. What I am saying is if you look


at the analysis of what is happening over the next 75 years, the movement


of people is such that borders are very difficult to maintain. That


will happen by the end of the century. We should be opening up the


debate of how we handle that. One of the issues we have to tackle is why


people are moving. It is about conflict and climate change. It is


about poverty as well. That means greater equality not just in our


country but across the globe. I wanted to talk to you about Google


and the EU. I hope you will come back and give me an interview on


economic policy. Let me finish with a taster? Back to Professor


Blanchflower, he said about you and Mr Corbyn that you have to accept


the realities of capitalism and modern markets, like it or not. No


more silly stuff about companies not being able to pay dividends if they


do not do X or Y. Do you accept that? That is why I appointed him as


an advisor. I wanted objective advice. I have established the


architecture for the future development of economic policy.


Are you going to accept his advice on that? We will listen to his


advice and take it on board. But we will also listen to other advisers.


But those advisers, what's the point of them if you will not listen? We


will test every policy we put forward. On that one, we are hoping


that we would avoid any need for that by introducing as we come into


covenant a real living wage. In the meantime, we want to campaign with


shareholders so they pressurise their companies to abide by a real


living wage. I think there is an alliance to be built there. Is it


party policy that if companies don't pay what you regard as a living


wage, until it's made mandatory, that they shouldn't be allowed to


pay dividends? it's one of ideas we have floated for discussion. We have


put it to the economic advisers to get their view. Angela Eagle said


it's unworkable. That's why it's open for discussion. It's a really


good campaigning tool for us to work with shareholders to make sure they


exert their influence to ensure their companies, on things like the


living wage and paying their taxes as well, to make sure their


companies are acting appropriately. John McDonnell, I hope you come back


to continue the debate with us. I certainly well.


So, David Cameron once dismissed the idea of an emergency


This morning, Downing Street is indicating that a brake


on welfare benefits for EU migrants might be acceptable


if it was applied immediately, but only as a stop-gap measure.


This evening, the Prime Minister meets EU Council President Donald


Tusk as he tries to broker a deal ahead of a crunch summit of European


leaders next month - but will the fractious leave


campaigns be in any position to take advantage if he's seen to fail?


Right now the future of Britain inside or outside the European Union


You might think it started here in Brussels, or that the media's


massed ranks are awaiting the outcome in the European


This week the decision was made in Havering, in Essex.


In this chamber right now, Havering councillors are debating


We will, when the referendum comes. will change, because the smart among


Nevertheless Havering Council deliberately didn't deliberate


on the leisure centre or meals on wheels.


However the Prime Minister meanwhile was hurrying for a deal on wheels -


It's his plan to block in-work benefits for EU migrants for four


years that's getting the bumpiest ride.


The EU counter proposal of an an "emergency brake" on access


to benefits - if a country can prove it's welfare system's under strain -


has not gone down well with Eurosceptics back home.


They are saying we are allowed to go to Brussels,


and ask their permission to change the benefit rules,


David Cameron still wants that benefit ban, and knows accepting


the emergency brake as is would only accelerate any campaign to leave.


We want to end the idea of something for nothing.


It's not good enough, it needs more work,


I believe we've got to put country before party,


country before personality, vote for freedom, and vote for leave.


In Havering they aren't waiting for a date or a settlement.


The Prime Minster knows Brexit supporters are eyeing his own


Cabinet to see who might be tempted do the same.


Michael Gove might come out for leave.


Boris Johnson, though it's rather doubtful,


might just possibly come out for leave, to vote for leave.


Theresa May, who almost certainly is preoccupied


And finally, Sajid Javid, the Business Secretary,


who has the most Eurosceptic record of all.


But it's very difficult, when you are a government minister,


and you've got real feelings of loyalty to your party


and your Prime Minister, to depart from the line.


And a lot of pressure, moral pressure, if you like,


A Havering Borough MP thinks that kind of pressure is wrong.


I think that this is a decision that we all have to make


And it shouldn't impede on people's political careers.


People should be able to make up their own minds,


and not worry about whether they are going to be sidelined or punished


Those who do out themselves for out, will need campaign wizards who can


Which, of two battling groups, that is yet undecided,


but so far both have seen a bad spell of personality clashes


and darkening moods way over the heads of most grassroots


The chance of winning over undeclared MPs is the magic


What we did discover, it's like the dementors slowly


sucking the people up out of the air, body


I do think that there will be a coming together now,


probably for very good reasons, there have been divisions


But I think this campaign will not be just politicians.


It's about the people versus the elite in many ways.


In fact, you have a referendum really in many ways when politicians


Meanwhile back in Havering... is they want to do.


party motion is therefore carried by 30 votes to 15.


So, councillors in Havering have voted for a motion that says


Now, there are plenty of councillors who said they don't have any


business debating this, they have far more important things


But what it might show is that for some people -


and in this case, an official elected body -


never mind what the date is, and never mind the renegotiation,


they would like to make clear their views right now.


I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Steve Baker, co-chairman


of Conservatives for Britain and a director of the Vote Leave


If the Prime Minister can get an agreement that there will be a break


in welfare payments for migrants the day after the referendum, isn't that


a powerful thing to take to the country? It's not powerful at all.


Bernard Jenkin is the Conservative director of Vote Leave, but we have


been told by the OBR that it wouldn't make much difference even


if the Prime Minister got this break. They would only take one case


brought forward by activist lawyers, and we would expect the European


Court of Justice to strike down such a measure. We think it's a red


herring, and as John Redwood said, a bad joke. They have ended up trying


to manufacture the appearance of success out of very little. As


things stand at the moment, there's nothing the Prime Minister would


bring back that would make you want to stay in? I've been clear through


the whole period that most of us want to end the supremacy of the EU


in the UK. Make our own laws in Parliament. The prime ministers had


something similar about the European Court of Human Rights. Demanding an


opt out from the charter is subbing the Prime Minister has had to give


up. So money inconsistencies. The answer is no. I expect a good number


of colleagues to join me and campaign to leave at this stage. How


many Tory MPs will campaign for out? Of the 150 on the list who have


expressed interest, and about a fifth have made up their minds, I


think about 50-70. No more than 50 or 70 Tory MPs campaigning on your


side of the referendum to leave? That would be my expectation at this


stage. John McDonnell said he wanted to get this out of the wear it, the


referendum. Didn't sound to me like Labour would join with the SNP on


delaying tactics for the referendum. Would you like the referendum to be


later? Realistically we are campaigning out to leave the EU and


we have secured our objectives for the campaign. But there is a good


case to be made that a June date would trust us. There are elections


in neigh, and I think there's a good case for a delay until September. I


would prefer the government brought forward a measure that went through


the Commons without a row, but if Labour and the SNP and conservative


colleagues wish to put something through, then we will be able to


what's the biggest beach from the -- beast on the cabinet you would like


to get? I haven't ruled anybody out. But I'm happy to go into the


campaign without any Cabinet big beasts. It would be surprised this


point if Chris Grayling didn't join us. He would count as a big beast,


leader of the house. People know which Cabinet members are discussed.


Theresa May? She made a speech on immigration which would be difficult


to recalibrate with the EU. It's a matter for her. You've given up on


Bryce Johnson? He occasionally flirts with it in the press. But


he's a typical conservative, he loves Europe, he would like Europe


to be different, but we'll see what he does when the comes. The


different leave campaigns, it's flawed with blood, when will you


stop knocking lumps out of each other? I'm not knocking lumps out of


anybody and I regret this week that we've had distractions from the core


aim of leaving the EU and I regret they have got their way to the


press. Everybody involved needs to reach a resolution, everybody


involved wants to move on and I hope we do so quickly, let's fight a


winning campaign. You are not the director of Vote Leave but you are


on the Parliamentary planning committee for Vote Leave, so you are


associated. Did you agree with the attempts to get rid of the two


full-time people running it, Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott? This


is a matter for the board. Do you agree with whether they should have


gone? At this stage it's very late in the day to make such a profound


change. But given the severe concerns of my colleagues, it is


clear there will have to be material changes in Vote Leave in order to


carry parliamentarians with the campaign. What this material change


mean? There has to be a greater degree of involvement with planetary


and so they think they are shaping the campaign to win over those


voters we need. Will there be a merger in the end? Surely that's


what all of you need, you are up against the government, is huge


machine, don't you need to be united? It's a David and Goliath


battle and we need to be united. The process of unity will come through


designation. Realistically, leave. EU is looking at the Courville,


where as Vote Leave knows we need the swing vote. -- looking at the


core vote. I'm confident that Vote Leave can and will win the


referendum. I wouldn't give away the mop in case there is more blood to


referendum. I wouldn't give away the wipe up.


One of David Cameron's four key demands in his EU


renegotiation concerns competitiveness.


The Prime Minister says the burden of regulation on businesses is too


high, and that the EU needs to strengthen the single market


and accelerate trade agreements with America and China.


Arguments about the economic costs or benefits of membership will form


a large part of the referendum campaign, with both sides keen


Those campaigning to remain within the EU say our membership


is worth ?3000 to every household in Britain.


It's based on a CBI claim that the UK's economy is 5% bigger


They also claim that 3 million jobs are linked


to trade within the EU, that 45% of UK exports of goods


and services go to the EU, and that the value of


trade with the EU is ?133 billion higher than it would be if we left.


Those who argue we would be better off if we left claim that


regulations imposed on business by the EU cost over


They say the 3 million figure on jobs is


dependent on trade with the EU, not membership.


They argue that the trade would continue if we voted to leave,


because we currently import more than we export from the EU.


So its members would want free trade to remain.


They further point out that the importance of UK trade


They cite ONS figures showing that the proportion


of UK exports heading for the EU fell from 54.8% in 1999


But an analysis by the House of Commons Library in 2013


of numerous studies into the economic


impact of EU membership found no consensus either way,


So, which side will manage to convince voters?


I'm joined now by the former trade minister Digby Jones


and Richard Reed, who founded Innocent Smoothies,


who is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU.


Welcome. Digby Jones, the EU accounts for 45% of our exports. Why


would you risk any of that? That will not change. Because in the


morning after any referendum result, Germany, it is pivotal on Germany,


would immediately want some form of tariff free arrangement with


Britain. They make a million cars they sell in Britain a year. 75 to


80% of all the trains in this country are built in Dusseldorf. We


do not know for sure? No. Germany does it and the others follow. There


are many arguments to stay in. But the one thing we should kill now is


that not one job in Britain is at risk because of EU membership. Not


one. There would be a free-trade agreement because we are so


important to Europe. And by the way that does not mean there are not


other reasons why not -- why we might not want to be in or out. I


get so frustrated when people talk about jobs at risk. It is rubbish.


That is very easy thing to call total nonsense. It is clear that if


your biggest market is suddenly interfered with, that it will not


somehow affect trade, does not make sense. You know more than most


people that businesses need certainty. What we have right now is


unfettered access to the largest market in the world. The fact that


we want to start playing around with this and that is good for business,


it does not make sense. I do not see the added value in belonging to a


club that fetters small businesses in this country every day.


Would you want to have a shop that had 60 people or 500 people walk by?


You can achieve that from a free-trade agreement. Which we have.


You get the sales prevention team in Brussels. They are trying to say


this is how you will live your life, small business in Hartlepool. And by


the way, the same rules will apply to 520 million people, but we all


know that southern Europe, compliance is a voluntary event. We


know that the French do not obey these rules and then what happens is


that we in northern Europe, we are by no means the best, Scandinavia is


better than us, we will be the stuff and baseball business which does not


have or be assisting in Brussels arguing the case... And you know


this small businesses. Let Richard comeback. Britain loves


a bit of regulation, you are quite correct. If we were to come out and


UCB will still a treat, we will have to comply with the regulation


because that is the conditions of the free trade, so we will not avoid


the regulation. It is their father we are in or out. But if we are in,


we get to have our voice heard. You tell that to all of the money men in


the city that have seen Brussels hammer down with regulation. You see


how bad it gets. You see how bad it gets when we are


not there at the big table where the decisions get made. We are one of


the three big forces in Europe. We are one of the three biggest


economies in Europe. In fact... Digby Jones, it seems


that you assume we will still have unfettered access to the single


market. It has been pointed out by Stephen -- Mr Reid that the


conditions of the single market could lead to other costs, for


example the free movement of people could be a problem. It would not


change things. Let us explore that because I am


very concerned that this referendum will become a referendum Trulli on


immigration allowed in the street. When they ought to be discussing how


can European Union reform improve the life of an unemployed


25-year-old in Madrid and a single mother in Athens? How can economic


power and otherwise, business, how can it be seen as a driver to get


the standard of living up? Have you be sure economy on exporting olives


and BMWs, you will go bust. They're asking you to subsidise the growth


of all those in the hope that for some reason unskilled people in


southern Europe will do this. From migration, Andrew, give or get


unskilled people in Europe coming to rich countries instead of getting


skilled people in Europe being marketable in northern Europe and


you can only pull that off with reform.


But if we are not in Europe we cannot do the reform.


We must not campaign to stop these people coming, we must campaign to


get the skills base of Europe up so that they get wealthier and more


importantly they are more marketable in our markets.


The British government has enough trouble getting the skills base


right in Britain never mind in southern Europe. But if we are out


we do not reform. Richard, you have said that inside the club we can


influence the rules. Hold on, let me put the question. The British have


been on the wrong end of EU majorities on these rules more than


any other country that is a member of the EU. We rarely get our way on


these things. Are you joking? We have the best


possible setup. We are part of the EU, we said no to the euro, we said


no to Schengen, we said no to forced my greater rate targets.


So why do we have so many majority votes?


This is a once in a generation decision, we have to get it right.


The big picture is this, it is a causal opportunity to be part of


Europe and we have the best version of the deal.


Richard, when you and I, years ago, I was at the CBI, we were arguing


cases about should be join or not the euro. I can remember sitting in


television students and been told the world would end. The sun would


not rise in the morning and we would go to Armageddon and bag if we did


not join the euro. We made the right decision about the


euro... The world is not about to end but this interview has come to


an end. Thank you both and this debate will continue. You are


watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland to


Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.


As Labour's new leadership fights its first election,


we'll ask its deputy leader about the battle to get


And here is the deal, inside. I can show you.


Is it possible that Labour - once the predominant force


in Scottish politics - might have to rely on the regional


list to get any MSPs at Holyrood after May's election?


A reminder: The list was put into place in the Scottish Parliament


to make it more proportional and, bluntly, to stop any one party


getting an overall majority - a provision which the SNP


If the polls are to be trusted, they could well do so again.


A ballot of Labour members, which decides who gets


onto the party's list and, crucially, who gets to the top


And we'll get the results at the end of the week.


They sing it with conviction. But the tide of history seems to be


against them. The SNP have achieved what the polls


predicted and more and hold more seats than any other party, a dream


of a night for them. But it has been a disastrous nightmare for the


Labour Party and the Lib Dems... Poll suggested that after losing all


but one Westminster MP at the general election...


We almost broke the swingometer with the result from Scotland. The Labour


Party may be about to lose all of their constituency MSPs at Holyrood.


We have seen that in polling for quite some time now that the


Scottish Labour Party are going to be reliant upon the regional list,


which is really astounding for a party which at one point in Scotland


was in government at every level. So, spin that is good news then. It


is not about trying to find a silver lining, it is about getting the


Scottish Labour Party back on its feet and providing the electorate


with a choice. The Scottish Labour Party had the belief for frankly far


too long that it had a right to rule. What the electorate has very


kindly demonstrated to the Scottish Labour Party is that that idea is


nonsense. We have a project here and it might


be that the people we elect in the month of May will be part of a


2-term project, where we get new people in now and they are maybe not


the finished article but it is people that the public can start to


grow and feel that these are people who are standing up for us in our


communities and across the region. That means seeing the Ann Sable,


about seeing who is responsible. There is a lot of dead wood in the


Labour Scottish Parliament. The voters are very clear. Labour has


not cut the mustard and there is no point in Labour politicians docking


this fact. We have had too many people historically at all levels of


party representation, at council level, at Scottish Parliament and at


Westminster who were simply not up to the job.


The Dutch elm disease taught us there is only one thing to do with


dead wood and perhaps Scottish Labour needs to learn that its new


rule is making the best of opposition.


What frustrates me when I watch First Minister's Questions and not


many people do, you know, we have MSPs in the Parliament who do not


really hold the government to account and I include SNP MSPs in


that, you do not see scrutiny in the committees and often you see that in


the House of Commons happen a bit better than it does here. So it is


about holding the government to account but it is also about coming


up with fresh ideas. So is there a grand plan behind all


of this? Something to rebuild trust and turn Scottish Labour once more


into a government in waiting? To the outside observer I think it


is very difficult to see what that plan is. Nothing is changing,


nothing is changing the polls. EC SNP dominance and have done for many


months. There does not seem to be any clearer way back for the Labour


Party at the moment. We's new leader and her deputy are


the only two people guaranteed a place on the party's regional list.


The question is, while the ballot of members deliver the fresh faces who


Huw Williams there. might start


Well, I'm joined now by the Deputy Leader


What do you make of what Thomas Docherty was telling us? He said


that quite a lot of the people he had seen represent Labour put until


now have not been up to the job? I think I look at things


differently. I think that Westminster politics, for example,


were completely out of touch with the reality of the everyday lives of


people. I think Labour paid the price for that. In all walks of


government there will be different people giving different things and


bringing different experience is to the Parliament. It is the same in


local government. People will bring different experiences.


In the last Scottish elections, you know that you got more people in


that you did not expect because of the rare that it went, you got more


on the list and your constituencies. Presumably there was some Deadwood.


That is the long-term. Kezia Dugdale has done since becoming leader, is


that we have opened up the party and part of that process has been that


we have opened up this election from the lists and that is why we have


gone through this process. That has resulted in a lot of new people


coming forward and that should be welcomed. At the end of the day, the


Labour Party itself must be in touch with the communities it seeks to


serve, it must be able to demonstrate that it knows what the


big priorities are, so it needs to have the policies, and needs to be


clear what it stands for. I think we lost all of that in the last eight


years, perhaps longer and we paid the price for that.


You lost any sense of the relatively of...


The sense of direction, actually what it was that Labour stood for.


So we have to restate that and set out what our vision is. We have to


set out our policies in terms of delivering that vision. If you look


at the reality of everyday life, in my constituency there are major


issues, people are struggling to get GP appointments, people are


struggling to get through A, struggling to get housing, the


basics in life. Their budgets and schools are being cut, these are the


everyday issues that people are dealing with.


I remember Kezia Dugdale telling us she wanted to see new faces in the


Scottish Parliament, people who have perhaps not even been in the Labour


Party at the time of the last election. Given the


number of people you have fighting to get onto these top list places,


realistically, will be see any of these new faces?


Two points. The first one Kezia made was that you will not change this


overnight. It will take time. We are here for the long haul. She is in it


for the long haul. But will we see these new faces in


this election? Many have come forward.


But will we see any of them at the top? Would you like to see them?


I think there will be new faces but they are in the hands of our


membership. Would you like new members in?


Yes, but at least hustings meetings there have been new faces and


experience. But would you like people to vote?


Are you telling us you would like people to vote for not Mrs Ali


people who were not in the Labour Party but not Mrs Ali... You would


like people not to vote for the current plot in Parliament?


I would like for people to listen to what is being said and vote for them


accordingly. Every Labour Party member has evoked. If you look back


to fifth, for example in 2012, new people came and that had not been in


longer than a matter of weeks. From the outside it appears that


there is this massive scramble going on by existing politicians because


you know you will lose constituency seats and they want the list. You,


yourself, you said when you were standing for the get good leadership


that you would not take up the right to be at the top of the list and yet


here you are at the top of the list, why did you do that?


We are going to fight for every vote but we are being realistic. We know


where the polls are at. Our job between now and the election is to


set out a progressive agenda and demonstrate because I was not good


to spend the most of the last few months trying to fight for a list


seat when I needed to be doing my job as Deputy Leader and that is why


I changed my light -- changed my mind.


The implication is that you have no confidence in yourself to win your


constituency. I am fighting hard to win my


constituency as we are across Scotland. Realistically we know


where the polls are, we know that there is a mountain to climb but we


are confident that if we can setup a much clearer vision for the Labour


Party in Scotland and set out a vision for the future of Scotland...


Labour is the only party in Scotland are doing for change, we are arguing


for change in the way that we do the powers that we have and how we will


use the powers that are coming to the Scottish


Parliament. You clearly don't think you are


going to win your own seat. Not true. Why are you on the top of the


regional list? Realistic discord for we are going to lose? We know that


it would be difficult to hold onto first past the post seats. We have


to set out our agenda and policies and we will work hard for every


vote. We will give people a reason to vote for the Labour Party and to


trust us once again. That is our objective. Lastly, you


talk about new Labour and a new image. The only thing you have, with


recently or the main thing, is a plan to give money to first-time


buyers, this is money that was previously hypothecated to help


people who were suffering from the cuts to the working benefits. Is


that a policy you are enthused about?


We seek to build 45,000 council houses. That is significant.


Hand-outs to first-time buyers? We have a housing crisis in


Scotland. We have made it clear we want are injured the living wage


across the social sector. For all those people working in home care on


the minimum wage, the living wage, believe me, will make a difference.


We have been clear that we must invest in jobs.


Do you agree with the first-time buyer policy?


That will give people the opportunity. Yes, I do agree with


that. But moreover I agree with balding 45,000 council houses in


Scotland that are desperately needed.


Alex Rowley, we will have to be put there. Thank you for coming in.


David Cameron's efforts to redraw the UK's relationship


He's hosting the president of the European Council,


And he does so in the week that the former prime minister,


Tony Blair, predicted that if the UK votes to leave the EU,


A senior EU commissioner has told the Sunday Politics that Scotland


should not have to choose between membership of the UK


Our political correspondent, Glenn Campbell, is just back


Version when David Cameron has been to Brussels, bringing home a box of


Belgium chocolates is not nearly enough. He wants new terms for UK


membership of the EU and after this week's talks with the European


Commission President a deal seems closer. There is a proposal on the


table. It is not good enough and it needs more work but we are making


progress. No bargain will satisfy Nigel Farage. He wants the UK out of


the EU. An independent United Kingdom that makes its own laws, but


takes back a fishing limit in Scotland that would bring thousands


of jobs. This is a UK wide opportunity to become an


independent, sovereign nation again. At the European Commission, top


officials warned the UK against self exclusion. You will lose more than


you gain. I think it would be best if he concentrates to make sure the


UK, a ball of the member of the family, stays in the family. Which


may defer questions about Scotland's future. We make every effort for the


Scottish people not to have to face a choice between Britain and the EU.


That is not a choice that you would like to face. She was speaking after


Tony Blair told French radio that if the UK votes to leave Europe


Scotland will go to leave the UK. Tony Blair finds himself in a


curious agreement with the First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, who has


argued that if the UK was to vote to leave and Scotland voted to stay in,


then the clamour for another referendum on Scottish independence


may be unstoppable. I think this is another scare tactic. If we vote to


leave the EU, the United Kingdom will break up and we will all live


in poverty. We have heard this before and it will not work. If


David Cameron's next get-together with other EU leaders instead they


result in a deal he could call the EU vote as early as June. This


former Belgian Prime Minister is watching our debate closely. He


wants the UK vote sooner rather than later, but he is worried that the


momentum may be with the campaign to leave. At the moment the campaign


around Britain is about leaving the EU, it is saying the European Union


does not work very well and we have a number of requests and if they are


not fulfilled then we are going to vote no. My only fear is that it has


become a self-fulfilling prophecy. David Cameron hopes to argue for the


UK to remain in a reformed EU if he can get the turns. He continues the


negotiation today with Donald past who acts as a go-between with other


EU leaders. -- Donald Tusk. A little earlier I spoke


to the Conservative MEP David Campbell Bannerman, who's


co-chairman of the Conservatives I began by asking him


what he thought of David Cameron's efforts to secure a temporary ban


on the payment of in-work benefits I think the emergency brake proposal


is complete nonsense. We would have to prove to the EU that our public


services were in crisis, GPs and hospitals and schools, and if we're


lucky they would then hold a vote on it and we would need a majority.


That is not control of your own country that is handing it to


Europe. If David Cameron is going to say this is not good enough and he


once more, you sound as if you do not have much faith in that. The


renegotiation process has turned into a sham. It is very trivial. The


renegotiation process has turned British people want control back of


their borders particularly, economic control, democratic control, and


this is not satisfying that need and I think they will vote to leave. You


describe it as a sham. Perhaps a polite word would be theatre. Are


you expecting more of this? I hope I'm not being too cynical, but one


would expect that due to refusals on either side, there may not be a deal


until 4am in the morning. Harold Wilson went through a similar


exercise that fooled the British people in 1975. It was only the


Highlands, Ireland and Scotland that voted not to join the UC. I think


parts of Scotland are very Eurosceptic. -- join the EU. You're


seeing Jim Sillars coming out. The SNP were in favour of leaving the EU


before 1992. The polls up here sure there is a substantial majority for


staying in the EU. I accept that what we have not had a proper debate


yet. We need to see what this package brings out of Brussels. I am


not confident. We wanted to see fundamental change and this is not


fundamental change, but I think this will be closer than people think. As


we know in Scotland, the General Election polls often do not give the


right cancer. One of the criticisms is that people like you will never


change your mind, it does matter what David Cameron. -- do not give


the right cancer. -- cancer. Scotland is the second-largest


contributor to the EU. But my point stands. It does not matter what


David Cameron does, you will always say it is not good enough. We were


looking at fundamental change and this is not fundamental change. If


you offer that to the British people they might vote to stay end. The


only change we are going to get as if we leave the EU. It sounds


dramatic, but we are not. -- it is not. We would get an excellent deal.


You consider yourself a conservative and a unionist. If there is a Safari


no -- if there is a scenario where Scotland votes to stay in the EU and


the rest of the UK votes to leave, that might lead to another


referendum and the break-up of the United Kingdom. It is totally


illogical. If the UK leads the EU and in Scotland votes to stay


outside of both the EU and the UK for years. The British Prime


Minister said there is a long queue to join the EU. There is Serbia,


Turkey, Albania, Scotland will be behind them. I think it would be a


disaster for them. That is an argument, but the least one can say


is that if this scenario comes to pass it will make the United Kingdom


is less stable than it is at the moment. I think it will be more


stable because I think Scotland will be less able and willing to break


away. We could devolve powers now held by the EU back to Scotland,


fishing, farming, parts of trade, tourism, energy and the environment,


a lot of these powers are with the EU and not Westminster. I think the


Scottish people will feel more independent if we left the EU. Thank


you. And I'm joined now from Edinburgh


by the SNP's Europe spokesperson, What about that last point? Is it


slightly odd for a national list to be in favour of staying in the EU?


Alec Salmond always made a big thing about being critical of the fishing


policy and wanting power is repatriated to Scotland. This is


your big chance. He has missed the point little bit on the European


Union because it is the member state that govern what goes on in the


European Union. The European Union could never force Scotland to take


Trident nuclear missiles. He is giving the example of fisheries.


That is one of the pillars of the European Union. You cannot be a


member of the European Union unless you accept the common fisheries


policy. David Cameron ruled out treaty change quite early on and


that is something we might of needed for the fisheries policy. Something


that we will agree on is that this has been a huge missed opportunity


by the Prime Minister to get some real change. No one says that the EU


does not need reformed, we would like to see fisheries and public


health back in Scotland, but he has not taken that opportunity to take


them back. Well vote no and have them back. No, because overall it is


better to be in the European Union. It is good for jobs in the economy


and climate change and security. Your message to fishermen you might


see benefits of repatriated policy to Scotland but in the bigger


picture it does not matter. We would like to be in there trying to reform


it. For example, the Conservatives and others who want to leave often


hauled up the example of Norway. Norway is in a position where it has


no say in the European Union but has to adhere to its rules. The oil and


gas industry in Norway were talking about that recently. I think the


idea that you leave the European Union and is not the case. Norway


does not have to adhere to the common fisheries policy. It does


have to adhere to other issues. Its politicians often complain about


that. If David Cameron had been serious about fisheries and other


issues he would have taken it to the negotiation table but he did not


bother. So your opportunity to get these powers back is to vote no.


Overall we think it is better to be part of the European Union with the


economic benefits it brings and the jobs that it brings. It benefits


small and big business and it is overall better to be part of the


European Union. In Scotland votes yes and the rest of the UK votes no,


as Tony Blair discussed this week, do you think you would have


legitimacy Collin for another independence referendum. I think so.


I put down amendments that were backed by my colleagues to avoid the


situation. We pit down amendments that meant that England, Scotland,


Northern Ireland and Wales would have to vote to leave the European


Union for the vote to be valid, but they were rejected. We might see a


breakdown in what is meant to be a partnership of equals but we did put


down amendments that would have darker David Cameron out of this


hole. The SNP policy is that you should be campaigning to vote yes in


Scotland and hoping desperately that people in England vote no. No, we


want to stay in the European Union and we are campaigning to vote yes.


It was more important than fisheries a moment ago. I put only amendments


to make sure that Scotland could not be taken out the European Union


against its Wales. We pit down those amendments and they were rejected.


It is said picking that they were rejected. In Scotland is taken out


of the European Union against its will, a breakdown in the


relationship of equals. Thank you for joining us this morning.


Liz Lochhead has been Scotland's national poet -


As her time in the role draws to a close today,


she came to the studio to reflect on her time in the role.


I began by asking her if she had enjoyed the role.


Being the Makar? Absolutely, it has been fantastic. It has been


wonderful. I have had a bit of prominence when I'm fading away. You


get after do a lot of things. There have been less gigs turning up as


you hit your 60s. It is just the people that used to invite you along


to the arts centres are now dead. Some people who have been Paul


Lawrie at think it is constraining. Did you expect to turn up in write


an ode to the fiscal framework? It was not like that at all. I was


asked to do poems on particular subjects and sometimes I wrote


things that I would not have written otherwise. I wrote up or you I like


about encouraging people to join the children's panel. It was social


things. I did a poorly for the opening of the last Parliament and


it wasn't the best one I have ever written. I responded to what Edwin


Morgan did for the opening of the Parliament building. It has been


fantastic and it is nice to be invited to do things. I could not


always do it, I could not always right a poor young, but I could


often find a poor young that the suitable from the Scottish or world


canon of poetry. I don't believe you when you say you


are fading. I will not be the national poet of Scotland any more,


someone else will have that honour and able do it in a different way


than I did. Edwin Morgan was the first Makar and it was a lifetime


award to him in his early 80s and it was a recognition of what he had


done. When he died they thought it would be a good idea to appoint


someone every five years. Someone might do a major piece of work and


do less public stuff than I have done. It is very open. The job is to


promote poetry and life in Scotland and that is a great thing to do.


They can ask you, the independence referendum, there was lots of talk


about how terribly important it was artistically. It was.


Then what we? As Scotland's culture suffered from a No vote?


Not because of that but before the referendum people where expressing.


You know, a lot of people in the arts where yes voters and I was


myself, that was not a secret, I was allowed to have my own opinions. I


was not desperately disappointed by the No vote because I had not


expected independence at this time. I was not asking some much about


that, but more the idea that this whole debate about independence.


What about it? People in the artistic world arguing


that independence would be liberating for the arts?


I think it might have been but also not getting independence is also


liberating for the arts because that makes people decide to talk about


what is happening. I do not think it was important in that kind of way. I


do not think being the portal Laureate for Scotland is important


in that party way. The Poet Laureate gives reference to what people say


and how important it is and tells people to listen to what is being


said and judge how important it is. I was called to finish regarding


that. And your considered view, is poetry as important as it has been


in the past in Scotland, more important, less important, are you


optimistic? Of course. I have worked with young


rappers which is also poetry. Poetry is a basic fundamental human rights


of people, that is why we do not rhymes with children and that is why


the balance, the great ballads tell us stories from the past. It is a


basic human instinct like song or dance and for some reason, most


countries seem to point a poet to be a poet. I think there should be a


dancer in residence or the national dance of Scotland and the national


singer of Scotland as well but there is a national and I was very proud


to fulfil that role. As best I could, very imperfectly,


but as best as I could for five years. Liz Lochhead, we'd better let


you get back to your wrapping. Yes! Thank you, Gordon.


I'm joined by the Sunday Herald's investigations editor,


Paul Hutcheon, and by Paul Sinclair, who's a former advisor


What do you think about the state of the Labour Party?


It is in a very difficult situation heading up to this election. Earlier


in the programme I saw Thomas Docherty talking about the dead wood


in the Scottish Labour Party, I think he has a point, there is some


dead wood but the difficulty is not replace it with dead wood that got


cut off in Westminster. What will be interesting when we see these


results of the list elections is how many new people get through.


Alex Rowley seemed to believe and claimed that there would be new


people but then he said it is up to the members to vote on it. Kezia


Dugdale spoke about the sort of phenomenon we have heard from the


SNP, people that have hardly been in the Labour Party for any period of


time and it has been a surge in membership because of Jeremy Corbyn,


will be CNE of them? I understand that Daniel Johnson, a


new figure, is doing well and might come top. At the same time, if we're


going to have a list that means that Scottish Parliament will be blessed


with the bit Oracle skills of David Kelly again, I do not think that is


something that will appeal to the Scottish public and that is


something that the Labour Party needs to do.


I think it is difficult for Kezia Dugdale to make any significant


changes to our group driven that there is a declining vote share. --


given that. She made a mistake allowing all existing MSPs to stand


on the list. Compare that to what Ruth Davidson did, some of her


allies tapped her MSPs on the shoulder and said thank you for your


service but you will not stand again. I think if Kezia Dugdale and


been more brutal, there would be more fresh talent in the group but I


think... You referred to some personalities


there and it is up to the members to decide who they want but there is


all this talk about and we heard from Alex Rowley, new beginnings and


being completely different, he said that in the past Labour had not paid


attention to the working lives of ordinary people. Where is this New


Labour Party and what is it? What it doesn't have, it is the same


problem that Ed Miliband had in the general election, there is not a


simple story for people to understand what is Labour Party


Scotland would look like. Very good party initiatives and they are both


well but nothing compelling to people here. I hear what Paul


Sinclair says about Kezia Dugdale and not being able to open up the


lists, but the problem is the Labour Party is incredibly difficult to


manage and one of the difficulties is, if one of the other candidates


had won the UK readership, I think Kezia Dugdale would have been given


more space to change the party the way that she wanted to.


Unfortunately with Jeremy Corbyn she cannot do that and that is the


difficulty and I think the Labour Party needs to get through this


election and then be serious about reform and reform its system.


Paul Hutcheon, there is no clarity that the image of Scottish Labour is


the same as that of Jeremy Corbyn's? Yes, there is a mismatch, for the


problem is that the Labour Party has, as they did have sensible and


moderate leadership they could possibly put AB back but bear it is


entirely different. If Scottish Labour was led by Barack Obama and a


campaign run by Bill Clinton I think they would still have the same


result in the month of May which is about 20% of the vote and 25 MSPs. I


do not think there is anything she can do in this short space of time.


Why not? When Labour were last in power in Scotland, there was a focus


on bread and butter issues like health and education. The


post-referendum legacy is that there is a correlation between how you


voted in the referendum and how he vote in elections. I think Labour


have been left behind on that. To use a football analogy, they are


playing away from home and struggling to make up ground.


There is a fundamental problem for Labour and that is if you have had


18 years of Tory rule, why did people not vote SNP? It was


essential because the Labour Party at that point was a nationalist


party, it stood up for Scotland and it was about Scotland versus


Westminster and people voted for it and liked it but nobody has started


to vote for the nationals party because it is the real thing. Labour


have to come out with a different story, it has to come out with


something new and at the moment they're thinking is not present.


Europe, Paul Hutcheon. Briefly. Can the know people are pure make a go


of it? I do not think so, the problem they


face is leadership. If you look at the yes Lock, we have four party


leaders but who is going to beat the No vote? Ukip will not provide any


good leadership and I think there is also this cross-party group of


politicians who do not agree on anything.


What about the UK, do you think they are in with a chance?


The big difficulty is that for those who want the UK to remain in Europe,


it is now being framed on what to deal David Cameron gets out of the


EU, that is a huge mistake. Whatever TV gets, even if it is meaningful,


will not be enough for the No vote people. The campaign must be framed


on the principle of being part of the EU and I am frightened that it


is not being framed like that. -- whatever deal he gets.


So you think there is a chance they could win?


I think there is a chance. Thank you for both joining us.


I'll be back at the same time next week.


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by shadow chancellor John McDonnell, Steve Baker, Lord Digby Jones and businessman Richard Reed. Janan Ganesh, Polly Toynbee and Nick Watt are on the political panel.

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