Browse content similar to 07/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
on the fiscal framework is "within reach". | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
So, with goodwill flowing, will this week bring agreement? | :01:35. | :01:44. | |
And joining me as always, three journalists who've got more | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
opinions than the campaign to leave the EU has splinter groups. | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
We'll see if they're still on speaking terms by the end | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Let's start today by talking about what the Government in England | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
is or isn't going to do about a sugar tax. | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
Health experts have been calling for one, to tackle | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
is a crisis in child obesity - but so far ministers | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Well, this morning the celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
to "get ninja" to force the Government to act. | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
Here's the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responding | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
on The Andrew Marr Show this morning. | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
It has to be a game changing moment, a robust strategy. | :02:25. | :02:35. | |
The issue here is, do what it takes to make sure | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
that children consume less sugar, because we have got | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
We are the most obese nation in the EU | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
Well, we are going to be announcing in due course - | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
David Cameron has said, if it isn't a sugar tax, | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
it needs to be something that is equally robust. | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
But he hasn't taken a sugar tax off the table. | :03:01. | :03:02. | |
Will there be a sugar tax? His instinct is to say no, I do not want | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
to run the nanny state that Jeremy Hunt says his one-year-old daughter, | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
by the time she is an adult, one third of the population will be | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
clinically obese and Public Health England shows if you introduce a | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
sugar tax, you will reduce that some Jeremy Hunt is in favour but the | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
Prime Minister is inching towards some decision, whether that is a | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
sugar tax or not... Regional and devolved governments, Wales has been | :03:35. | :03:45. | |
very keen on that. I feel I am at liberty to say this but Scotland | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
also has greater tax-raising powers so he could get outflanked. Or wait | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
and see how it does in Scotland and Wales and then decide to follow? | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
Yes. I want to make the liberal case against this but that ship has | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
sailed decades ago, we tax alcohol and tobacco and this is more like a | :04:10. | :04:19. | |
revenue raiser because that isn't -- a justifiable cause, we have a | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
population with a sweet tooth that you can hit the revenue. That is the | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
reasoning to deal with rather than the more censorious reason of | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
monitoring behaviour. And junior doctors, scheduled to be back on | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
strike on Wednesday in England, which means that some of the talks | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
so far have failed? There is bad feeling but as Andrew Marr was | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
saying, the turnout on the vote was very high, and the 8%. The | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
government is really struggling to shake this debate and it is | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
interesting with that interview, Jeremy Hunt has said until now that | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
the cost of the new contract would be revenue neutral, he now admits | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
there would not only be a transitional cost but longer term | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
and the government is really struggling on this. It is not affect | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
emergency services this time. It was a big week for | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
David Cameron's renegotiation He once promised a fundamental | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
change in that relationship as a condition for backing | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
the campaign to stay in. Well, there are changes - | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
but perhaps not quite as fundamental And what he has achieved still needs | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit in a fortnight's | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
time, where it could be But Mr Cameron says what he's | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
achieved is so significant that if Britain was not an EU member, | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
this would make him want to join. Here he is speaking | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
earlier in the week. I can say, hand on heart, | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
I've delivered the commitments that I made in my manifesto, | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
and I think the whole country knows that if you, for instance, | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
pay people ?5,000, ?10,000 additional to their wages, | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
then that is a draw to Britain, and that's one of | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
the reasons why we've seen such high levels | :06:11. | :06:11. | |
of migration and movement. So David Cameron says it lives up | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
to everything that was promised in the Conservative | :06:17. | :06:18. | |
election manifesto. I'm joined by former Cabinet | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
minister Eric Pickles. Welcome back. You said this week the | :06:21. | :06:31. | |
Prime Minister has kept to the letter and spirit of his manifesto | :06:32. | :06:32. | |
promise. Let us look letter and spirit of his manifesto | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
promise. The manifesto said we will insist that EU migrants who want to | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to the | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
economy for a minimum of four years. The emergency rig on tax credits | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
does not achieve The emergency rig on tax credits | :06:53. | :06:52. | |
must bear in mind the things we can The emergency rig on tax credits | :06:53. | :07:03. | |
do through domestic law, a job-seeker from Europe | :07:04. | :07:04. | |
do through domestic law, a find a job within six | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
do through domestic law, a are obliged to leave and that has | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
been achieved through domestic law. The manifesto promised no in work | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
benefits until The manifesto promised no in work | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
for four years. The reality is graduated, they rise, and after four | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
years you get the full benefit? That is not unreasonable. After four | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
years to get full benefit but we know that the criteria for putting | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
on the brake for four years has already been passed and the largest | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
political party in the EU agrees that has happened and we should have | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
this in place after the next referendum. It will have to be | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
approved by the European Parliament and the other 27 members and what | :07:57. | :08:04. | |
constitution, emergency, the cost to migrants is five billion pounds | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
every year, we are 1.6 5 trillion economy, public spending is 750 | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
billion pounds. Why is ?500 million and emergency, only 1.6% of the | :08:18. | :08:27. | |
bill? My earlier answer was, we already know the political leader of | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
the largest political party in the Parliament of Europe has said it is | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
the fact that we have arrived at those conditions and an emergency | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
brake will be placed. What emergency? It is an emergency in the | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
views of the European partners, they have accrued -- agreed to this | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
emergency brake but in terms have the mechanism of Britain future for | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
other countries, that will be decided over the next two weeks but | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
what we do know as far as the UK is concerned, we will get that | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
emergency brake. If a migrant Eilidh Child lives abroad, they should | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
receive no child tax credit or benefit, no matter how long they | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
have worked in the UK or how much tax they have paid. There it is. The | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
sentiment does not deliver on that either? What it does deliver is | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
harmonisation of benefits so the level of benefits will be exactly | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
the same as it would be in their own country. You are going to have 28 | :09:43. | :09:51. | |
different levels of child benefit! In many cases it can be as much as | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
the quarter. And in some cases, more? Not many people to pay the | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
same level that we don't but the point I was making is that in Poland | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
it is a quarter of the level as it is here. You promised no child | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
benefit for migrants and you're delivering index linked child | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
benefit for migrants? It is a big improvement on the current | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
situation. When you go into negotiation, but do precisely that | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
and I think it is within the spirit of what we said. The manifesto said | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
that you will control migration from the European Union by reforming | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
welfare rolls and Mr Cameron at one stage said that reducing immigration | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
from the European Union would be at the heart of this. Can you give us | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
an idea of how much these changes will reduce European Union | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
migration? I am not part of the negotiating team so all I can go | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
wrong is what I have seen in newspapers and given that we know | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
that in work benefits, 40% of new arrivals are supported by that and | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
given that the average is ?6,000 in addition and can be as much as | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
?10,000, it will have an effect. You said 40% but that is not the figure, | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
we know from the Freedom of Information release that if there | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
had been any emergency brake in the last four years it would have | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
affected 84,000 families. That is it, not 40%. I said that 40% of the | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
new immigrants that, in, new migrants, claiming in work benefit, | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
you are comparing apples and pears? I am not. 80,000 families is nowhere | :11:51. | :12:00. | |
near 40%. Last year, 180,000 net migration from the EU. Do you have | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
any idea by how much the figure will be reduced as a result of the | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
settlement? Were not trying to prevent people living inside the | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
European Union, we are trying to stop people coming for something for | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
nothing, to claim from our innovative system and secondly, to | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
ensure there is an equalisation inside the market of people coming | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
here just because of our in work benefits. Since this will apply only | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
to new migrants and not those that are already here, is unlikely to be | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
a rush to come in before these restrictions in? And the figure | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
could rise? As part of the negotiations we have to ensure that | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
doesn't happen. We would have two ask as part of the negotiation... To | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
ensure that there isn't this new influx. In the manifesto you also | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
said that we want national partners to be able to work together to block | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
unwanted European legislation. In the Lisbon Treaty there is an orange | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
card system that does that and we have the red card with Mr Cameron, | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
is this an improvement? The Orange card has been used twice. That was | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
yellow, orange has never been used. I beg your pardon. It is confusing! | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
How many different cards? Three, yellow and orange and this red card. | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
In what way would the red card be any improvement on the existing | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
Orange card, which means 51% of national parliaments can make the | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
commission rethink? We can move much quicker in terms of trying to knock | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
out any deal between European Parliaments and secondly, national | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
parliaments are becoming much more assertive in terms of their session | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
and that is a massively important step in the re-establishment in the | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
importance of national parliaments. It is not just our Parliament, we | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
would need to get 56% of national parliaments, at least 15 others, and | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
in many cases we would only have 12 weeks to ask them to vote against | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
the policy of their own national government. That is not credible? Of | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
course it is. I think this is a very important step on the way of | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
ensuring national parliaments are much more assertive and don't | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
forget, read this in line of stopping them moving towards ever | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
closer union and protecting sterling. Let us look at that. It | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
was meant to be one of the big wins for the Prime Minister, Donald Tusk, | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
the President of the Council, says we have always had that, it need not | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
mean integration for Britain, the settlement confirms only the status | :15:14. | :15:14. | |
quo. It is very interesting for him to | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
say that but on every programme that I've ever been on, it has been this | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
drift towards ever closer union, political union, that has been | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
important. If it means we have now re-established that it is about give | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
and take and cooperation, that is a great thing. Given how little the | :15:35. | :15:44. | |
prime and this has achieved -- the Prime Minister has achieved, would | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
his position not be undermined, or become untenable, if this draft | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
settlement was further undermined before being finally agreed? I'm | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
very confident, given that this Prime Minister is the only Prime | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
Minister ever to take powers back from Europe, that it will be | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
successful. But could you stomach of further watering down? It would | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
depend what the overall position is but my position comes not from any | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
enthusiasm for Europe. It's just a lack of any decent ideas that we | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
would be better off outside. To come back to this business of the | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
European Parliament, there are number of areas in which the | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
European Parliament has to approve this settlement, including the work | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
benefits, child benefit element, perhaps even the red card. What | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
guarantees can you give, because the European Parliament won't to do | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
this, if it does it at all, until after the referendum... So how can | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
you guarantee that we will vote to stay in and the European Parliament | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
will not pass the legislation? We've had indications from the European | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
Parliament that they will do precisely that. What I would hope... | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
Where? Just a second. The leader of the largest party has said that. I | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
think what we would want to see over the next couple of weeks are more | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
codification in terms of how this would come to operate, not just for | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
us but for other parties. But if the European Parliament doesn't pass | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
this, it is not legally binding. The Prime Minister has told us that. It | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
can only be eagerly binding under the existing treaties with | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
legislation through the European Parliament. You are asking the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
British people to vote blind, to vote yes, without really knowing | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
what the European Parliament might do down the road in the autumn at | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
the end of the year. I'm very confident that will be the case. -- | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
won't be the case. It will be an appalling abuse of trust and would | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
undermine the European Union, were it not to do so. But sooner or | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
later, we are going to have to go on to discuss, what would the | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
consequences be thus leaving? Because that would not be a | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
pain-free experience. I really want the guarantees for those that want | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
us to leave to say that my constituents and my constituents' | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
children will be materially better off by leaving. Not just the same | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
but better off by leaving. Eric Pickles, thanks for being with us | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
this morning. Thank you. In recent weeks we've been debating | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
some of the big issues at the heart We've covered immigration | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
and the economy. Today we're going to look | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
at Britain's sovereignty within the European Union and ask, | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
is the EU a democratic club There are about 500 million people | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
across the 28 member states Voters from these countries go | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
to the polls every five years to elect 751 members | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
of the European Parliament. The UK currently has | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
73 MEPs, who have some say over the EU budget | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
and new legislation. But it's the unelected Commission, | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
led by President Jean-Claude Juncker, that is responsible | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
for day-to-day management, plus proposing and | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
implementing new laws. Later this month, David Cameron | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
will attend a crucial meeting of the European Council | :18:58. | :18:59. | |
to press for his draft settlement, the outcome of his | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
efforts to renegotiate our terms The Council is made up of the 28 | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
heads of state or government of EU members and decides | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
the Union's overall political But it's not to be confused with | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
the Council of the European Union, where ministers from each | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
country meet to discuss, There's always been | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
concern about a so-called democratic deficit and at the last | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
elections in 2014, turnout In the UK, where few people can | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
even name a local MEP, I'm joined now by former Respect | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
MP George Galloway - he's said this week he'll campaign | :19:42. | :19:51. | |
for Britain to leave the EU - and by the Labour MP | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
Stephen Kinnock, who wants Stephen Kinnock, let me come to you | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
first. Turnout at the last election was under 36%. Only 11% can name | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
their MEP. Richie Gray the EU has a massive democratic deficit and the | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
Cameron settlement does nothing to address it, does it? On the | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
democratic deficit, of course it would be good if more people voted | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
in democratic elections but let's not forget there is another | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
democratically elected institution in Brussels and that's the council | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
of the vistas and the European council. They are ministers. Our | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
Prime Minister, directly elected by the British people, going to | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
Brussels to exert influence for Britain. The democratic deficit | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
sometimes gets tied up with the European Parliament. That's an | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
element of it but the council is a major part. On the renegotiation, I | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
think the really important point is that this referendum is not about | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
David Cameron's renegotiation. This referendum is about the future of | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
the United Kingdom as a trading nation, as a proud nation in terms | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
of a diplomatic big player and where we are actually going in terms of | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
the long-term future of the country. It's not about the precise details | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
of David Cameron's renegotiation. Mr Cameron think that is important. | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
George Galloway, you said you believe in a union of the peoples of | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
Europe but surely the only realistic way to achieve that is to work for a | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
reformed EU. Anything else is just rhetoric. No, because I think it is | :21:23. | :21:33. | |
in the Brits of the EU. You pointed to the visibility of the European | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
Parliament, its credibility and standing but you didn't add that the | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
European Parliament itself, even if AT the centre people were turning | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
out to vote for it, has almost no power. The power lies in this | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
council of ministers and in a bureaucracy well entrenched, very | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
lavishly funded, which has meant of its own. I could answer your | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
question in two words - Catherine Ashton. Never heard of her? No. Ever | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
elected to? No. She was the European Foreign Minister, dictating to other | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
countries outside the world with no democratic mandate of any kind. I | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
think we have to be more sensible about the way we talk about these | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
things. There is a process of co-decision which is enshrined in | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
the treaties of the European Union. The vast majority of the legislation | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
which goes through has to be agreed by both the European Parliament and | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
by the European council on the basis of proposals from the European | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
Commission. Not necessarily all the council. Politics is the art of the | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
possible and when you are part of a system of pooled sovereignty is, | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
when we come together as nation states because we believe our | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
sovereignty is actually strengthened through cooperation, of course you | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
have to make compromises. You don't win absolutely 100% of everything | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
that you go for but actually, I believe that through corporation and | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
pulling our sovereignty our sovereignty is strengthened. There | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
has been a lot of talk by the Prime Minister about asserting the | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
sovereignty of Parliament. It seems to be one of the carrots to attract | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
Mr Boris Johnson to come onside. But surely you have to accept that in | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
many areas, the EU and the European Court of Justice, they are sovereign | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
and Parliament has to recognise that sovereignty or we have to leave. I | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
think that we have to also look at the likes of Google or the big | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
multinational companies. They don't recognise the concept of | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
sovereignty. For people on the left, such as George and myself, the key | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
point of the European Union is, it's a transnational body that regulating | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
transnational business. Not very well. It is not regulating them very | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
well. Much better than we could do them alone. I don't think so. The | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
bottom line is... And this is to be, on the left. Mr Kinnock senior and I | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
shared many platforms on this, as well as the late Mr Benn, the late | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
Mr foot. This was commonplace on the left. We don't want to be dictated | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
to by other countries. We want our people to choose our government and | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
thus our direction. And I'd rather take my chance with changing things | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
in Britain than waiting for a change in Bulgaria or in Poland. But you | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
are nationalists and doesn't but inevitably involve some kind of | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
pooling sovereignty? The whole basis of the European Union... As we | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
always said from 1975 onwards, on the left, the European Community, | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
now the EU, is actually built on neoliberal economic principles, | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
which are ironclad and unchangeable. However people want to vote. Are you | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
comfortable with the manner in which Greece's sovereignty was overturned | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
by the European institutions and above all by companies -- countries | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
like Germany? We live in a highly globalised, interdependent world and | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
the idea that the UK alone can exert influence and regulate the big | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
multinationals on its own is absurd. The other key point on Greece is, | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
how would we help the people of Greece by leaving the EU? Our | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
principles are about solidarity, a key value on which European Union is | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
founded, which is a value of the left. What was the solidarity that | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
the EU showed Greece? I think what we need is a Labour Prime Minister | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
in Brussels arguing against the politics of austerity. We are not | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
part of the eurozone. This was a eurozone argument. We can still | :25:34. | :25:41. | |
exert our influence. What many would think is your natural allies on the | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
European left, so reads the increase, and a party in Spain, want | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
to stay in the EU. Why are you right and your comrades wrong? The people | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
of Greece were crushed underfoot by this neoliberal consensus on which | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
the EU and administrations are built. Portugal actually had an | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
election and elected a majority of left-wing MPs and we're told by the | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
European Union, the president of Portugal was told, you mustn't | :26:11. | :26:12. | |
summon these people to your palace to allow them to form a government. | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
This is unconscionable. It's not because I love the people of Greece, | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
though I do, or the people of Spain. I don't want us to face the same | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
fate as them. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell's economic policies, which | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
I believe in and which are badly needed, are illegal under the EU. If | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
we were to save our steel industry, for example, we would be acting out | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
with the European Union's legal framework. You've been closely | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
involved in the steel industry. What do you say to that? I fail to see | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
how our principles of solidarity and reaching out to our brothers and | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
sisters in other parts of the year are helped by the idea that we | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
suddenly leave. But to me seems to be going against the founding value | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
of the Labour Party, which is solidarity. On steel, this is a | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
classic example but it is up to your member state government to play the | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government that has been | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
asleep at the wheel on steel for four or five years. An energy | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
compensation package should have been put in place years ago. The | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
government has done nothing about it. The massive flooding of Chinese | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
steel into the British market has only been happening over the last | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
four years. That could only be done by Europe, not Britain. It took them | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
for years to get the stated clearance because nobody was | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
knocking on the door properly in Brussels and because we are cosying | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
up to Beijing. Cameron and Osborne seem to be putting the interests of | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
our relationship with China ahead of British industry. We are allowing | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
them to damp massive amounts of Chinese steel in the market. The | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
European Court of Justice is preventing us from deporting | :27:49. | :27:49. | |
Moroccan citizen, the daughter-in-law of Abu Hamza, Abu | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
Hamza himself convicted of 11 terrorist offences. She has done | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
time, too, for a terrorist elated offence. We still can't deport her. | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
That is a pretty serious intrusion of our sovereignty. I don't know the | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
details of that case but I do know we live in a very interdependent | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
world... You said that. What people want to know is if we can deport | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
foreign citizens who have terrorist criminal convictions. We did manage | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
to do it with Abu Hamza, so there are ways. The EU is a rules -based | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
organisation. It sets the rules of the game. It's up to the member | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
states to play that game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
that has failed to build alliances and coalitions in Brussels. That's | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
one of the reasons we have a difficult relationship with the EU | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
now. When you look at this leave site and the various factions of the | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
time they seem to be spending more time knocking lumps out of each | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
other, does that make you happy you joined? I campaigned against | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
breaking up Britain and for a no vote in the Scottish referendum. | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
That didn't mean I was with the Tories, didn't mean I was with the | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
Orange order. So are you solo again? There used to be a commonplace view | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
from the 1970s, and still standing now, for a democratic future for | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
Britain. We decide how many immigrants we have, who we deport, | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
what our levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be. | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
We will leave it there. Thank you both. | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
Labour says it faces losing more than a quarter of its funding, | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
thanks to Government plans to change the way the party gets money | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
from trade union members, along with moves to cut state | :29:30. | :29:31. | |
In a rare TV outing, the party's general secretary | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
Iain McNicol has told us just how damaging the changes could be. | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
In an in and is this have raised cash in the past. I started my | :29:38. | :30:21. | |
constituency in Bradford raising ?1000, and other constituencies | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
asked me to do the same thing. We have raised ?100,000. It is just as | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
well, because the Labour Party could be about to lose ?8 million of | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
funding if government plans to change the | :30:39. | :30:38. | |
funding if government plans to from trade union members goes | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
through. And they say it is no laughing matter. It is an affront on | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
British democracy. If you look at any previous agreement which | :30:50. | :30:51. | |
British democracy. If you look at the funding of a | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
British democracy. If you look at was done on a consensual cross-party | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
basis, and agreement because of the effect it had. Is this an | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
existential threat to the Labour Party? It would be very difficult | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
for the party. Around 30% Party? It would be very difficult | :31:06. | :31:15. | |
our funding would mean we would not be able to operate in the current | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
way that we do, holding the government to account | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
way that we do, holding the Majesty's opposition. It is unfair | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
and unjust. The cash goes towards staffing, reportedly around half its | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
costs, and campaigning. Things like party election broadcasts, battle | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
buses, and headstones. At the moment trade union members have to actively | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
opt out. In the future they would have to opt in, in writing, within | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
three months. Something Labour fear people will not get round to doing. | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
It also coincides with the 19% cat to so-called short money, cash given | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
to all parties to help with costs of Parliamentary business, a sort of | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
concession for not having the civil service like the government does. | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
But the man who used to be in charge of the civil service says the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
Government's plans are at best partisan. It goes to this wider | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
question of what I would see as a worryingly authoritarian streak in | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
government that finds it difficult to live with and accept challenge. | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
And that is something the people of all parties, I'm a crossbencher, not | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
in any party, but I think whichever party you are in you should be | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
concerned about this. There is nothing authoritarian about having | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
something like in our manifesto, voted for in a majority government | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
and delivered on. If you are a Labour Party support the and you are | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
a member of the trade union, you actively choose to do it rather than | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
having it forced upon you. The Labour Party needs to get out and | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
convince members it is a good use of its money to give that money to the | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
Labour Party, just as the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats | :32:59. | :33:00. | |
have to convince people to give money directly. We do not rely on | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
people accidentally giving us money. Back in Kentish Town, organisers say | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
a night like this is about raising awareness and morale as much as | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
raising cash. Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign relied on | :33:20. | :33:21. | |
grassroots support, and as funding dries up it could well need to rely | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
on people like this, people willing to come to a night about Jeremy | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
Corbyn that he himself is not even at. In fact, generally, may prefer | :33:30. | :33:41. | |
appealing to people like this rather than big donors, and number of whom | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
have already abandoned the party anyway. But fundraising and only 3% | :33:44. | :33:51. | |
of the income last year, and the spotlight, following her liver pays | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
its way in the future. We now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland to | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
Talks on the fiscal framework resume tomorrow. | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
The Scottish Secretary says "both sides have done the dance, | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
And Labour puts its new candidates for the regional lists on show, | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
Looks like we're not going to get a deal before Valentine's Day | :34:18. | :34:28. | |
on the fiscal framework that'll sort out the flow of finance | :34:29. | :34:30. | |
between the Westminster and Scottish governments. | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
It's not clear if there's a mountain or a molehill in the way. | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury Greg Hands | :34:36. | :34:37. | |
is in Edinburgh tomorrow for more talks with John Swinney, | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
If you're not a policy wonk the negotiations might seem highly | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
But there's been a warning that if they produce the wrong result | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
they could cost the Scottish Government billions of pounds. | :34:52. | :34:53. | |
We'll hear from both sides in a moment. | :34:54. | :34:55. | |
Spiderman. The Reverend John Cumming of Aberdeenshire. Today is Victory | :34:56. | :35:11. | |
in Europe Day. And Winston Churchill all said it, or something like it. | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
With great power comes great responsibility. Holyrood is soon to | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
get the power to collect around ?5 billion in income tax, newly ?3 | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
billion in rates, as well as billions in council tax, meaning | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
that the block grant from Westminster will go down, but by how | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
much? And in case you were wondering, this really matters. The | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
fiscal framework in some respects is about very technical things, about | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
how to adjust budgets, but these have fundamental consequences for | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
the amount of money that a future Scottish Government will have at its | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
disposal, the amount of taxes that the population will be expected to | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
contribute, about the level of services that they can expect to be | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
provided. It has fundamental implications for the everyday things | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
that we expect a government to be able to deliver. Crucial to | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
negotiations, the no detriment rule, that is the promise that whatever | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
system is agreed it will not put Scotland at a disadvantage. The no | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
detriment principle can be modelled by economists in a number of | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
different ways, and there are billions of pounds at stake here in | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
terms of which model of the no detriment principle you prefer. It | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
was always going to be complex and difficult, but the complexity is | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
compounded by our political commitment to abide by the Barnett | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
formula for the duration of the current UK Parliament, until 2020, | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
squaring the Barnett formula with the no detriment principle and the | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
various commitments given by both governments in the Smith Commission | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
agreement and everything else is difficult and takes time. As | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
University of Basel alumnus Adam Smith looks on, a short seminar on | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
the rival systems that have been suggested for making this work. The | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
three options are per capita index deduction which eyes have supported, | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
which insulates Scotland against demographic risk, then this simple | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
index deduction method which simply looks at our attacks take relative | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
to the UK, and then there is the levels deduction method which | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
potentially actually is trying to do it Barnett on taxation which | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
actually erodes the Barnett formula even more. These are the three | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
methods, but per capita is the one that works best in terms of a fair | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
deal on both sides. And that is because you see the Scottish | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
population has distinct challenges that are different from the UK as a | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
whole, or England in particular. Our population will grow slower than the | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
rest of the UK because we do not have the powers to control that, | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
would not have a revision policy in our control. But the no detriment | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
principle cuts both ways, so the deal has to be fair to the taxpayers | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
and the rest of the UK as well. The Scottish Parliament has a tax policy | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
that generate additional income for Scotland, that is for Scotland, but | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
likewise if it generates or has a policy which generates less income | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
and why should taxpayers in the rest of the United Kingdom expected to be | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
allowed Scotland? With the increased powers that we see in the Smith | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
Commission agreement and the Scotland Bill come increased | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
responsibilities, and that is what the haggling is about. But for now | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
it seems like we might need someone with superpowers to get a deal done. | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
A short while ago I spoke to the Secretary of State | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
for Scotland David Mundell who came into our Edinburgh studio | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
and I began by asking him what was "ludicrous" | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
about the Scottish Government's demands. | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
What I meant was that when we get a fiscal framework, and I am quite | :38:45. | :38:53. | |
confident that we will, it needs to be fair to people in Scotland than | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
30 people in the rest of the United Kingdom. And what that means is that | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
the Scottish Government as their part of the deal have to take the | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
risks that come with new responsibilities, but also if they | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
are able to grow the Scottish tax base they also get to keep that | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
money. So it is a balance of risk and responsibility, but it is not | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
just keeping the Barnett formula, keeping any additional revenue | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
raised in Scotland, having risk underwritten and maybe even getting | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
tax funding from the rest of the UK as well. That is the parameters of | :39:30. | :39:39. | |
our position. In your view, in what way was what John Swinney is arguing | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
for a ludicrous? What is he demanding that you find so | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
ludicrous? What John has said in the past is that he accepts that the | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
deal has to reflect the Scottish Government taking on risk for policy | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
choices, so that if they make good policy choices and raise additional | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
revenue they keep that revenue, but if they make a policy choices and | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
the revenue is less than anticipated then they have to bear the | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
consequences of that. And that is basically at the core of the | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
arrangement that I think we need to reach. And that we are capable of | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
reaching. We are at the position now, both sides have done the dance, | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
now we need to do the deal. Are you saying that the Scottish Government | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
is demanding a system which would mean that Scotland would not have to | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
bear responsibility for its own decisions? I think that some of the | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
public comment has suggested that the Scottish Government did not want | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
to take on the risk associated with their own policy choices. I think | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
that that was a clear part of what the Smith Commission wanted to see | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
in this arrangement, that you benefited from good policy choices | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
but you had to take the consequences of poor policy choices. We have | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
looked at it from a UK Government position, we have looked at the | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
issues and concerns that the Scottish Government have raised, | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
they have raised some legitimate issues that are legitimate issues | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
about population growth in Scotland, issues around the ageing population | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
and we have, and we are quite willing to look at accommodating | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
those within these discussions. But the Scottish Government will also | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
have significant levers to grow the population of Scotland if they get | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
the policy choices right. If they make Scotland an attractive place to | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
come to the tax regime, if they make it attractive to businesses. It is a | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
balance. There are institutional issues in relation to population | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
growth, but there are also issues that they can influence, and they | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
need to do that with proper policy choices. But again, I just want to | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
be clear, because the problem with this whole negotiation is that | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
partly it is being done in secret and partly that even if it was not | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
his fantastically complicated. The argument that John Swinney seems to | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
be putting forward is basically that the deduction from Scotland's grant | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
to compensate for the fact that Scotland is raising its own taxes | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
should be based on a per capita share rather than a straightforward | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
percentage share. Using that the new proposals would you have put on the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
table accent that? The point about the per capita share is that it | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
would shield Scotland from the publishing growing slower than in | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
England. Using you have changed your proposals to compensate for that to | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
some extent? I am saying that we want to reach an agreement. We are | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
taking forward issues that the Scottish Government have raised in | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
relation to population, but it comes back to the point... But what is new | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
about what you are proposing? You have said this week there is a new | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
proposal on the table. What is new about it? We're not going to do the | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
negotiations on this programme. There is a meeting tomorrow with | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
John Swinney and the Treasury. I am asking you to tell me what is new. | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
We have moved, we are looking to move to ensure we can take on board | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
issues that have been raised about population growth, but getting that | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
balance, taking account of Scotland's ageing population on one | :43:32. | :43:33. | |
hand but on the other hand the Scottish Government and accepting | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
that they have the capacity with these new powers to grow the | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
population. They can make Scotland an attractive place to come to with | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
the tax regime, the regime for business, and I am sometimes quite | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
surprised how pessimistic the SNP seem about their ability to use | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
these new powers in a positive way. These are really significant powers | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
that can change Scotland's economy and the need to use them to do so. | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
They would say Scotland has no control over immigration policy, and | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
immigration is the most likely way to get the population to increase. | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
So if you have a system whereby Scotland loses out if its population | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
grows at a slower rate, that is not... May be at the margins with | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
the policies you're talking about Piggott have an influence, but with | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
no control over immigration policy Scotland could lose money through no | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
fault of its own, and that is the problem. You seem to be accepting | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
that they have a point. I do not accept that immigration is the only | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
way to grow the population. If you make your economy attractive, if you | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
make your tax regime attractive then people will come, and I don't accept | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
the immigration argument. What I find rather odd is that when the SNP | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
asked to just three months ago for full fiscal autonomy, that is an | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
arrangement which independent experts say would leave Scotland | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
with a ?10 billion annual black hole, they did not ask for | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
immigration powers along with full fiscal autonomy. They were quite | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
happy to take on board that huge gap in the Scottish budget without | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
asking for any of the so-called levers that they need in relation to | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
growing the economy. Are you suggesting that if the Scottish | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
Government went along with your... Again I don't want to comment index | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
reduction methods, that presumably is the basis of what you're | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
suggesting, that the British government would be prepared to | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
discuss giving Scotland powers over immigration. Is that what you're | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
suggesting? I am certainly not suggesting that. Immigration is one | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
of the reserve powers. It was not part of the Smith Commission | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
arrangement. What I am suggesting is that the two sides are really quite | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
close together. I am confident that our accommodating the various needs | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
that we both have and what the Smith Commission set out as the parameters | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
for a fiscal framework, that we can get that deal. I think people in | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
Scotland want to see us get that he'll because they want to see these | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
sweeping new powers in relation to tax and welfare coming to Scotland. | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
I am putting all my energy into getting a deal UK Government is, and | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
I am confident we can get one. If you cannot get a deal the SNP say | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
they will walk away. RU prepared to walk away? No. We will not walk | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
away. We will stay until a deal is done. You might not have much | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
choice. It takes two to reach a deal. We not walking away. I know | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
the people of Scotland want to see the Scottish Parliament have | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
extensive new powers over tax and welfare, come that powerhouse | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
parliament. We have seen the transformation already when the | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
Scottish Parliament is debating tax issues, the vitality that has come | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
into the political debate in Scotland. They do want to see that | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
continue and get even more coherent and relevant with these extensive | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
new tax powers. I'm not walking away, I want to get a deal,. What | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
about this deadline of February the 12th? There was not a deadline. That | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
is an arbitrary date. It is not even necessary for any Scottish | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
parliament process because the following Monday both the Scottish | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
Parliament and Westminster Parliament are in recess. We're not | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
working for any arbitrary date. We are working to get a deal. Of course | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
he won't that deal as we possibly have it. But I do not see the 12th | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
or the 14th as being a deadline. The economists who have looked at this, | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
very complicated formulae that are being bounced around, include that | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
part of the problem is the Barnett formula. Because the Barnett formula | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
is at the centre of this. We would not be better if we are going to | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
have some sort of quasi federal UK to get rid of any deadlines and just | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
put everything on the table? Perhaps get rid of the Barnett formula. If | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
it is the problem that causes of these complications, why not just | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
sit down over a period of months and some sort of constitutional | :48:28. | :48:29. | |
convention and say, let's work something out? Lots of other | :48:30. | :48:31. | |
countries do this, can we not do it? There have been various attempts in | :48:32. | :48:41. | |
the past to look at different funding mechanisms within the United | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
Kingdom at all the major PATCO parties went into the general | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
election committed to detain the Barnett formula. We are going to | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
work within the parameters of the Barnett formula. If it simplifies | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
matters, why not get rid of it? I am sure academics and economists and | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
others will continue to argue about the Barnett formula, those people | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
have to come up with something else. One of the reasons the Barnett | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
formula has stayed in place at is very easy to criticise it but | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
difficult to come up with a viable alternative. Argue very much for | :49:19. | :49:25. | |
joining us this morning. -- thank you very much. | :49:26. | :49:27. | |
Listening to that is SNP Deputy Leader Stewart Hosie who's | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
You heard David Mundell suggesting these new proposals the government | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
have put forward go some way to addressing this issue that Scotland | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
would lose out if the population did not grow as fast as England. What in | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
your view is about what he is opposing that is new? I have not | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
heard any new proposals in the same week David Mundell is not privy to | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
these negotiations neither am I, all we can talk about is what is in the | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
public domain and all that seems to be in the public domain at the | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
moment from the UK Government is a mechanism that would lead perhaps to | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
a ?7 billion loss to the Scottish block grant over a decade. That | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
clearly breaches the Smith commission principle of no detriment | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
and if that is where we are even with a little bit of tinkering, that | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
we clearly be unacceptable to size with because it does not adhere to | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
the principles upon which these powers were supposed to be | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
delivered. Yes, but the other principle that the British | :50:33. | :50:34. | |
government is understandably trying to protect is that they don't want, | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
for example, increases in taxation made at Westminster to fund schools | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
and hospitals in England to leak through to increased taxation | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
increased spending in Scotland when Scottish taxpayers haven't had to | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
pay any extra taxes on it. You presumably would accept that as a | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
legitimate concern for them to have? Indeed, the no detriment proposals | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
as you said in the package cup both ways. That is absolutely right. | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
Let's remember what is at the heart of this. There is a modest set of | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
taxes to be devolved. If the Scottish Government make the right | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
choices and that yield goes up we benefit from that. If they make the | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
wrong choices and dealers a shortfall in the Scottish Government | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
need to take responsibility for that. But the bulk of funding still | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
comes from the rock rant and that will still be driven by the Barnett | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
formula. That is what was agreed by all the parties in the Smith | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
commission so, if we accept that and everybody has in what we are arguing | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
about in essence is how the block grant is adjusted in the future to | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
take in the devolved taxes. What we are suggested that the academics are | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
proposing and again this was the package is that this is the clearest | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
and best way to do it that involves no detriment to side. Hang on. There | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
are other academics. The problem with, again I do not want to get | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
into much into the jargon but the per capita proposals that you are | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
putting forward is that they would protect Scotland if its population | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
grew more slowly than in England but it's better click -- perfectly | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
legitimate for the government to take some responsibility for that. | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
If you want more powers then if you are Scotland, in Scotland's | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
population grows slower than England you have to be some of the | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
responsibility. That is what you want more powers for. It is | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
precisely these things you want more control than Edinburgh. That is | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
right so what we want to do is use the powers we have and the modest | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
powers to be devolved in order to make Scotland even more attractive | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
than it is to grow the population. It is no issue with that at all. If | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
we broke the population income tax increases and the share of VAT | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
increases for example but we cannot have Unionist politicians running | :53:05. | :53:06. | |
around making an argument about growing the population when the Ark | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
resisting at every turn the devolution of immigration powers | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
which are the quickest way to grow the population. You heard David | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
Mundell the sea you never even asked for that. This is a UK Government, | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
Unionist political parties who are even proposed to a post study what | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
these so that people who work and study and learn in Scotland are able | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
to stay for a few years to contribute to the economy. They are | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
even saying no to that so I think this argument about population | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
growth is simply a smoke screen for the fact they are trying to embed | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
deeper cuts in the block grant than Scottish tax raising powers could | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
possibly deliver. That is detrimental to Scotland and clearly | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
breaches the Smith commission proposals. Yes, but the counter to | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
that is if you index this on a per capita basis Scotland is completely | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
shielded from its population growing at a slower rate so there is no | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
incentive for the Scottish Government to do anything about | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
that. But there is an incentive because as I have said if we grow | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
the population the income tax yield would increase and the assigned VAT | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
would increase and many other taxes would increase. It is a good thing | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
to do anyway. Economic activity would rise. We are not seeking to be | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
shielded from decisions we take. If we get a decision right in Scotland | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
and the devolved tax yield goes up we benefit. If we take a decision | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
and the devolved tax yield goes down we have two face the consequences. | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
What we are talking about here is the overall level of the block grant | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
which makes up the bulk of Scotland's funding is still supposed | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
to be delivered by Barnett. That is agreed by all parties and we cannot | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
have the UK Government seeking to undermine that and undermine | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
Scotland's block grant any systemic way we above anything any devolved | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
tax goods compensate for. That is wrong, it is unclear and beaches the | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
spirit of all the negotiations. You also heard David Mundell saying the | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
two sides in all this, taking the rhetoric away, art pretty close | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
together, is that your view? Now, from what I have seen, neither David | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
Mundell or myself are privy to these negotiations, but from what I have | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
seen publicly they've is a considerable distance to go. The | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
Scottish Government want to stick to the no detriment principle but the | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
UK Government want to stick to systemic funding. I think that is | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
quite a week ago and I hope a deal can be struck. What happens if the | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
is no deal? Well the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister have | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
been absolutely clear, if we cannot get a deal that adheres to the no | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
detriment caused them a bill pull on the handbrake or rather they will | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
and they will not sign off a legislative consent motion for these | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
powers. That is the responsibility and the power of the Scottish | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
Parliament has and if they heart to wield that in those circumstances | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
against UK Government intransigence then the government will well | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
understand we are not prepared to sign of a deal that embeds cuts to | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
Scotland. Would you be happy as an SNP politician going into the May | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
election saying Scotland has been offered full control of income tax | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
but as you are the Nationalists party we have said no, we do not | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
want it best to mark the is a national party. We have been offered | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
the modest set of powers. I would like to see them but I am not | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
prepared to go into any election, any time, the mere legend | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
notwithstanding, and say we have signed up to a 7 million at in | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
Scotland's systemic funding over a decade will stop that would be | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
ridiculous in terms of what the Scottish Government was then able to | :56:58. | :56:59. | |
ridiculous in terms of what the find than do over the next ten | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
years. So, you were just say that is it an what? The discussions are | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
finished on until after the election or what? I hope we can get a deal | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
done within the time set. If the parties or governments are required | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
to negotiate a little longer let them negotiate a little longer but | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
what we cannot sign up to is the systemic factors Scotland's funding. | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
You have said that. Let me put the point to you that I put to David | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
Mundell. The issue here, what makes this all so complicated as keeping | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
the Barnett formula. If you get rid of that it becomes much easier. | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
Wouldn't it be more sensible rather than politicians running around | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
setting arbitrary deadlines to have some sort of constitutional | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
convention where everybody sits down and says we want to reorganise the | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
way the UK is run let's think about this any rational week? What is the | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
judgment against doing it that way? We would love to see the finances of | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
these islands run in a rational way in the. If we took full | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
responsibility for everything and called it independence that would | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
make perfect sense but we lost that referendum. What the matter that was | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
the Smith commission and the Smith commission, all six parties signed | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
up to Barnett continuing to fund the block grant with the exception of | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
the devolved hours. That is where we are. That is what we are negotiating | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
about. Let's have unions politicians in the UK Government stick to some | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
of the promises they made and deliver this devolution on the | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
principle of no detriment to Scotland. Thank you for joining us | :58:32. | :58:33. | |
this morning, Stewart Hosie. The battle for second votes | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
in Holyrood's May election is ramping up as a recent poll | :58:38. | :58:39. | |
suggests that Labour will lose all of its 15 constituency seats, | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
meaning the party is reliant on the regional lists | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
to return MSPs. Insiders also reveal | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
that the Conservative will pour resources into a campaign for list | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
seats, as the gap between them Well, yesterday Labour released | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
the names of the candidates Joining me is former MP | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
and Public Affairs consultant, Are you beside yourself with | :58:55. | :59:10. | |
excitement when you look at Labour's list candidates? Yes, I am managing | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
to pick a calm face on it but it is hugely exciting. You explain to us | :59:15. | :59:21. | |
why. Well the Labour Party, Scottish Labour is any very difficult | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
position. You may have noticed were not exactly on the front food that | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
the party had a choice where we had the list candidates trying to bring | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
in new talent and I noticed Kezia Dugdale has been criticised in some | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
quarters for not doing that. The alternative was trying to secure | :59:39. | :59:40. | |
some of the more experienced and well known names. It could not do | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
both. It has gone for the latter option to secure the well-known | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
people. Many of whom have been here for a long time. I understand why | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
the party has done that. I do not think a Scottish Labour Party group | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
of MSPs in Holyrood without the likes of Johann Lamont and James | :59:59. | :00:05. | |
Kelly, people like that, I think it's good that they are likely, | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
likely to be back, we do not know yet. It does mean we had in the | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
position within is very little new talent. The new candidates have come | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
through our people who lost their seats from Westminster last May. The | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
problem, Kezia Dugdale bid talk about some idea of having new people | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
who had perhaps ever been involved in politics coming through to be | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
candidates and get into parliament and this would make the Labour Party | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
look like a completely different organisation. That is not going to | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
happen, is it? It is not. It is a very good aspiration and ambition to | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
have but it is incredibly difficult. If you're going to put the list of | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
candidates out to a ballot of members which is what has happened. | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
If you are the Labour Party candidate you are going to recognise | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
the name of someone who has served as an MSP for years rather than the | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
person who was an academic or the business person from another part of | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
society you are going to put the number one against the names of the | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
people you recognise which is why we have a list of people who have gone | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
the whole been here for some time. That is not necessarily a bad thing | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
because the next five years at Holyrood are going to be really | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
difficult for the Labour Party at Holyrood the going to need people | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
who had experience but the problem is without the new talent coming | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
through Wien in the same position the SNP was in in 1990 97 years ago. | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
That is a huge step back for the Labour Party. Perhaps the problem | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
was Kezia Dugdale saying this in the first place because it raised | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
expectations. The model I think she was using is the victory the SNP had | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
in the general election but they got so many MPs that they could have an | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
experienced hard-core and they could have fresh faces as well. Labour are | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
not quite in that situation. Fresh faces that they had appeared would | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
be replacing expedience. I think the problem goes back further than that. | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
There are two reasons. Nobody prepared for the succession to do | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
Donald Dewar. All led as an opposition, you let the convention | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
he was prime demolition and nobody prepared for who would take over | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
from Donald. More importantly the Scottish Labour Party has never had | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
a strategy on the list. The SNP has right from the very beginning and | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
worked it very well. Scottish Labour were so arrogantly thought they had | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
to do was pay attention to who won the first past the post seats. Now | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
we are reconciled to losing all, possibly all of the first past the | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
post seats and concentrating everything on the list. Frankly it | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
is doing everything 15 years too late. That is a strategy that should | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
have been put in position from the very birth of the Scottish | :02:51. | :02:51. | |
Parliament. In Deadwood. Do you think there will | :02:52. | :03:03. | |
be a change. In your view, will Labour look more dynamic at least? | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
Or is just the old, same old? I think what you had five years ago, | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
because the party paid so little attention to who was on the list, | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
you have some additional members, a very mixed bag. There were some | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
brilliant ones, there were others that frankly should not have been | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
there. You're being very polite. You mean because either did not expect | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
to lose so many constituency seats. A bunch of people that no one | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
thought would get got elected. Your words, not mine. But now the party | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
has concentrated on getting the best people at the top of the list. On | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
the whole that is what we have. Unfortunately we will have your | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
MSPs, but standard will be significantly higher, and it has to | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
be because will be fewer of them. significantly higher, and it has to | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
Tom Harris, thank to the campaign group | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
Scotland Stronger In Europe which will be launched | :04:00. | :04:01. | |
in Edinburgh this week. to gather support for Britain's | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
renegotiation of its relationship In Denmark, he won the backing | :04:07. | :04:08. | |
of the prime minister who said The Polish prime minister backed | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
Mr Cameron's proposals Here, there's been a mixed reaction | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
to the deal with MPs discussing I am not arguing and will never | :04:20. | :04:34. | |
argued that Britain could not survive outside the European Union. | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
We are the fifth largest economy in the world, the biggest defence | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
player in Europe with one of the most extensive and influential | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
diplomats ignored works on the planet. The question is not good | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
Britain succeed outside the European Union, it is how will we be most | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
successful. I will Britain be most prosperous. How we create the most | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
jobs. How we will have the most influence on the rules that shape | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
the global economy and affect us. How will we be most secure. And I've | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
always said the best answers to those questions can be found within | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
a reformed European Union. But let me say again, if we cannot secure | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
these changes are ruled out nothing. Second, even if we secured these | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
changes, you'll never hear me say that this is now fixed. Far from it. | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
There will be many things that remain to be reformed, and Britain | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
would continue to lead the way. For all the sound and fury, the prime | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
minister has ended up exactly where he knew he would be, making the case | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
to remain in Europe which is what he always intended despite | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
renegotiation spectacle choreographed for TV cameras over | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
the whole continent. As his own backbenchers to telling us, the | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
proposals from the European Council are simply tinkering around the | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
edges. They have little impact on what you delivers for workers in | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
Britain or British businesses. What is at stake is much bigger than his | :05:58. | :05:59. | |
recent discussions. is at stake is much bigger than his | :06:00. | :06:01. | |
whether we're in the is at stake is much bigger than his | :06:02. | :06:02. | |
that is what the debate is at stake is much bigger than his | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
UK will be in the run-up to the referendum. The timing of | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
UK will be in the run-up to the referendum really matters to the | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
electorate and the governments of Scotland, Wales | :06:13. | :06:13. | |
electorate and the governments of Ireland, as well | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
electorate and the governments of there are elections in May. How does | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
it help to try and fit a couple of emergency brakes that lie within the | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
control of the year and not as? Isn't the only way to get control | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
our borders, our tax and our welfare system to leave and be a good | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
European and let them get on with their political union? | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
Time now for a look at the week's big stories and what's coming | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
I'm joined by the Press Association's Scottish political | :06:41. | :06:51. | |
reporter Lynsey Bews, and by the Sunday Herald's Scottish | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
Tom, Europe, briefly. I sense something odd going on. All the | :06:54. | :07:05. | |
politicians on the yes side think they need to deal with the | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
Europeans, get on with that hand have a quick referendum, meanwhile | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
the opinion polls are going in the opposite direction. It is a very | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
interesting picture coming out at the moment. The public seems to have | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
a very certain opinion about what is happening, because if you look at | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
the campaigns, the no campaign, the out campaign, and the state | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
campaign, the embryonic and chaotic, particularly the Out campaign. It is | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
different either side of the border. It is largely for leaving site of | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
the border. But the public seemed to be making up their own minds | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
already. Do you think the Yes campaigners have something to worry | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
about? I think the Yes campaigners are benefiting at the moment, as Tom | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
said it is quite chaotic on the other side. They do not seem to have | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
a coherent... In England, the get out people are streaking ahead, even | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
when the no campaign is a model of how not to run a campaign. You | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
think, what could happen if they got their act together? Absolutely. I | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
think when it comes to the crunch, when you look at Scottish campaign, | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
the campaign for staying in is much stronger. If you look at it purely | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
from a Scottish perspective the campaign appear for staying in will | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
do very well. But what happened in Scotland will not determine the | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
result. Can you see the Mil people getting their act together? It may | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
not matter, because the body of opinion is already in favour of an | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
outlawed. If I were David Cameron, we saw reports in the newspapers | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
this morning about panic at number ten, I would be worried, because | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
despite the self sabotage of the Mill site, they are head. -- the | :08:54. | :09:04. | |
chaos in the No side. In the newspapers, we saw this. That was | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor. It is clear what is | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
going on here with this new policy of decreasing tax, that Labour are | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
trying to stick some territory. Yes, they are trying to do a lot to | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
puncture the SNP's self mythologising that they are the new | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
party of the left, the anti-austerity party, and labour are | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
saying, this is not the case. Look at what they do in practice. They | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
are quite conservative, especially on tax. That might help Labour feel | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
good, but I think the public already know this is how the SNP are and the | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
support what they do. It might give Labour a warm glow but I do not | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
think it will bring them any more votes. Is that your view? Yes, I | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
think it was interesting the budget debate last week, Jackie Baillie | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
wanted to do about principle, the principle of salvaging public | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
services by making people pay more tax. She did not want to talk about | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
what John Swinney wanted to talk about which was the detail of how | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
you go about doing this. And Labour's plan for this ?100 rebate | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
which they do not seem to be able to explain exactly how it will work. | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
And the other problem for Labour, they have put this 1p on for every | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
year, not just the first year when the initial tax powers come forward, | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
but every year after that, when actually the SNP will properly come | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
forward with some proposals when they powers over rates and bands | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
come in. Liverpool have a problem looking at how this 1p rise across | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
the comes into that. -- Labour will have a problem. Some people say, | :10:47. | :10:55. | |
look, the 45%, as they like to call themselves, are written off for | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
Labour in this election. It is the 55% where they might have a chance | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
of inroads, and you will not win them over by seeing you will put up | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
taxes. It is more of a survival strategy for Labour. We were talking | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
about how perilous these elections look for them and how they are | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
turning to the list vote. They just have to get through these elections | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
were some sort of credibility on the far side, severe try feel robbed | :11:21. | :11:22. | |
their own base vote. They're trying to leech a few votes away from the | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
SNP, maybe people who voted yes because there's probably some sort | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
of left-wing Nirvana underwater pool those people back. But really it is | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
about trying to get through this election. Add line from the | :11:37. | :11:49. | |
Telegraph about 30. -- about Turkey. This is a refugee crisis on top of | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
the refugee crisis we have already because of what is happening in the | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
area around Aleppo. Yes, it is very worrying for people who are in Syria | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
and trying to escape from the atrocities and the attacks that are | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
going on, and again it serves to highlight what a mess that country | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
is in and how we collectively have failed to really make inroads to | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
addressing any of the issues that are going on. And other side of | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
this, of course, is that it is possible, perhaps not likely, but | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
possible that the Assad- Britain strategy could win outright. -- | :12:32. | :12:40. | |
Assad-Vladimir Putin. If they take Aleppo, most of the urban areas will | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
be back under the control of the Syrian government. Possibly, but it | :12:44. | :12:52. | |
will not get our out of Syria or anything like that. Lindsay is | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
right. This is a terrible tragedy that is happening right now. One | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
could easily imagine Assad and Vladimir Putin getting that and | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
saying, we will turn our weapons on Isis, and you in the West who sit | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
around wringing your hands about how terrible it all is, we've done this | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
and we are now go to tackle IS, and you have done nothing. You are | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
braver man than I am because I would not like to predict. I'm not | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
predicting, it is just one scenario. Nothing is simple in that country. | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
And I hope we can avoid another tragedy in Aleppo, as I don't know | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
how it is going to pan out. There is pressure already on Turkey to open | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
its borders. Absolutely. And these people are in a perilous situation. | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
This is another humanitarian crisis on quite a large scale. I do both | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
very much indeed. I'll be back at the | :13:47. | :13:47. | |
same time next week. | :13:48. | :13:52. |